MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: buckchuckler on April 02, 2016, 01:40:50 PM
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The eve of the best day of the year for me. Baseball looks poised for a great season.
The NL is top heavy, with very good teams and very bad teams. The AL looks like a very even league.
NL East
The Mets look like favorites, their pitching looks ridiculous, but can they stay healthy? Their offense will be better than last year, with a full year of Cespedes, Conforto and d'Arnaud. With Neil Walker and Cabrera up the middle the offense looks a lot better.
The Nats look poised to compete, but they under preformed last year and lost Zimmerman, Storen and Desmond. They have some stud kids in the waiting (Giolito and Turner), will they come up? Will they make an impact?
The Marlins need to be healthy. If Stanton and Fernandez give them health, they could be a surprise competitor in the East.
The Phils and Braves are rebuilding. Positives on the horizon, but both could lose 90+.
My prediction : Mets, Nats, Marlins, Phils, Braves.
The NL Central is similar, very top heavy.
The Cubs seem to be the anointed. After reaching the NLCS last year and getting obliterated by the Mets, they won the offseason. Heyward, Lackey, Zobrist. Kept Fowler. They are likely the favorites, but aren't perfect, but the problem are certainly nit picky. Biggest concern may be sophmore slumps. Bryant seems too good for that, but Schwarber had a declining OPS each month, and didn't hit lefties well, but he looks like part of a platoon, so that may not be a concern. They have ML depth, with lots of valuable tradable assets in the minors. Just a dangerous team. 109 or no?
The Cards lost 2 big FA players. To the Cubs. Ouch. They also won 100 games without Wainwright, Holiday and Molina (for the most part) last year. Will those guys stay healthy? Will Piscotty and Grichuk be able to replicate their performances from last season? They've already lost Peralta, but added Mike Leake to the rotation. Should be a very strong team.
The Pirates didn't add much. But they lost some pop. Walker and Alvarez are gone, though Alvarez killed them on D last season. Walker brought in a much needed pitcher. They have the best all around OF in the bigs, but will their infield give them enough offensive support? Their pitching should be good, but could have used a mid rotation style arm.
As for the Brewers and Reds, well, see Phils and Braves.
My prediction: Cards, Cubs, Pirates, Reds, Brewers
The West is a bit more muddled.
The DBacks went for it, but lost their 2nd best hitter yesterday. They added a ton of pitching in Greinke and Miller, but completely sacrificed their minor league depth. Good ML depth means they may be able sustain the loss of Pollock, but it is questionable.
The Dodgers lost Greinke and replaced him with middle rotation types. What will Puig be? Will their rotation be able to stay steady after Kershaw? They should be in the mix the entire season, but can they get there?
The Giants spent a ton of money, but did they spend it wisely? Both Samardizja and Cueto had big question marks of seasons, but both return to the NL and to a great pitchers park. Span looks like a solid addition to the top, they have a very solid core, and it is an even year. They have the best manager and possibly the best front office in baseball, they can never be counted out.
The Rockies and Padres are better than the other NL bottom feeders, but still seem a tier behind the three teams. Maybe they could surprise, but it's be, well, a surprise to me.
Prediction: Giants, Snakes, Dodgers, Pads, Rocks.
As for the AL, yikes.
I wouldn't be surprised if any team won the East. I'd bet on the Jays, but who knows. I'd bet on the O's for last, but who knows.
The Yankees are old, but can hit if they stay healthy. Their rotation seems like a bit of a mess, but their pen looks like one of the best, provided Miller can pitch through his hand injury (non pitching hand). When Chapman gets back, look out.
The Red Sox are a mystery. Some great young players, but some aging vets, and some big downside vets (Pablo and Hanley) The added Price, but after that their rotation is sketchy. Should have a good pen, and great when Carson Smith gets back.
The Jays can mash. But will their pitching hold up. They lost Price and didn't replace him. Pen should be good. They will beat opponents into submission.
The Rays are the Rays. Small market, solid players, good pitching and defense and an improved offense. I was surprised they traded Karns, but they had the depth.
The O's will hit a ton of HRs. They will also K alot. A ton. Their d looks sketchy in the OF, at best.
My prediction: Jays, Yanks, Rays, Boston, O's
The Central is similar. Every team could win it.
The Royals are defending Champs. They did lose some key pen cogs though, both Madsen and Holland are gone. Cueto is gone, they brought in Kennedy, to fill some innings and the park and D should help him. Much the same on offense, will pressure you to death.
The Twins were a surprise team last year, and didn't lose a ton. They will get a full season on Sano (who could be a monster). They have Park, a Korean import that should mash, but guys from the KBL don't have the track record of other leagues. The big question here is can their pitching continue to improve.
The Tigers addressed their pen. Which has been their Achillies Heel for years. They brought in Upton and ZImmerman, but lost Cespedes and Price from last year's opening day lineup. Again, I think their biggest if is health. Last year Cabrera missed a good chunk and they got nothing out of V-Mart.
The Indians can pitch. Boy can they pitch. They have 3 starters that will likely K 225 hitters or so. Not quite the Mets, but close. The questions is will they hit. Kipnis needs a bounce back year, Brantley needs to get and stay healthy, and they need someone else to step up.
My beloved White Sox. If everything goes right they could be great. Adding Frazier is great. Lawrie, Rollins, Latos and Jackson are all low risk high reward moves. Their pitching should be good, and could be great if Rodon takes the next step.
My Prediction: White Sox (complete Homer pick-- Hawk would be proud) Royals, Tigers, Twins, Indians. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was completely backwards. This division is crazy.
The AL West.
The Astros are the sexy pick, much like the Cubs. Lots of good young talent, some top tier arms, good pen. Minor league depth. They seem to have it together. Not without question marks though, again the K's. What will they get from Gomez? What happens at 1B?
The Rangers. If they stay toward the top till Darvish gets back watch out. They may run away. They should hit, and pitch. Maybe a bit weaker in the pen, but very strong.
The Halos didn't do much. They have great strength in their lineup with Trout, Pujols and Calhoun. But they need more from other guys. Who will it be? Their rotation looks iffy as well.
The Mariners re did everything. I am very interested in what happens here. Very curious.
Oakland was the worst team in the AL last year, and didn't do much. Lots of young talent, I wouldn't be surprised if they took some serious steps forward.
My prediction: Astros, Rangers, Mariners, As, Angels.
Fell off a bit at the end. Sorry. There is my take.
I love Baseball. Its been a long few months.
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Lots of good stuff, buck. One correction - the Nats didn't lose Zimmerman, he's playing first and batting clean up.
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Lots of good stuff, buck. One correction - the Nats didn't lose Zimmerman, he's playing first and batting clean up.
That's Ryan. Nats lost P Jordan Zimmerman to Detroit.
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Lots of good stuff, buck. One correction - the Nats didn't lose Zimmerman, he's playing first and batting clean up.
Hahah. True. I meant that other Zimmerman.
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Good stuff. Looking forward to the season. The league is full of exciting young players right now.
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Good stuff, Buck.
There could easily be a couple 100 win teams in the NL this year - simply because there are 6 really bad teams.
St Louis could win the NL Central again - especially if they get anything out of C and 1B. Excellent pitching and some really nice young hitters. If Grichuk played 81 games in Milwaukee, he could win the HR title in the NL. Playing is StL hurts those chances, but he doesn't hit many cheap ones.
In the AL, the Orioles could set a Major League team HR record this year and finish last. I think they may finish as high as 2nd or, more likely, 3rd.
Houston will be really fun to watch - especially if Gomez and Springer stay healthy.
Hanley could well win Comeback Player of the Year in the AL. Looks like his shoulder is healthy and the park is made for him.
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Scoop offer: For now, anyone who asks I will get us tickets to a Twins game. You must cheer for Minnesota.
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Scoop offer: For now, anyone who asks I will get us tickets to a Twins game. You must cheer for Minnesota.
JB rolling in that $$$
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That's Ryan. Nats lost P Jordan Zimmerman to Detroit.
Yes - it was a joke.
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NL Division Winners: Cubs, Mets, Giants
NL Wildcards: Dodgers, Nats
AL Division Winners: Toronto, Houston, Royals
AL Wildcards: Boston, Texas
World Series: Cubs over Houston
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NL Division Winners: Cubs, Mets, Giants
NL Wildcards: Dodgers, Nats
AL Division Winners: Toronto, Houston, Royals
AL Wildcards: Boston, Texas
World Series: Cubs over Houston
Homer. ;)
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Homer. ;)
Just calling it as I see it. :)
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Go Halos....start off with drubbing the Crubs on Monday!
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Go Halos....start off with drubbing the Crubs on Monday!
Ernie Banks won the MVP with a last place Cubs team almost 60 years ago. Will Mike Trout do the same with the hapless Halos this year?
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Ernie Banks won the MVP with a last place Cubs team almost 60 years ago. Will Mike Trout do the same with the hapless Halos this year?
You might be thinking of Andre Dawson in '87. The Cubs did not finish in last place in '58 or '59, (Banks' MVP years).
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Go Halos....start off with drubbing the Crubs on Monday!
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0ye3iQEpM1qaezqco1_400.png)
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You might be thinking of Andre Dawson in '87. The Cubs did not finish in last place in '58 or '59, (Banks' MVP years).
Good catch, WI.
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I see Lenny is taking his useless preseason NCAA approach and doing the same thing with the MLB.
I'd like to see the teams play, we'll see how things go.
For the record, I'm a huge Joe Maddon fan and was blessed to have worked with him when I was with the Halos and Joe was our interim manager, and then top bench coach. Awesome guy. I wish the Cubs well.
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I see Lenny is taking his useless preseason NCAA approach and doing the same thing with the MLB.
I'd like to see the teams play, we'll see how things go.
For the record, I'm a huge Joe Maddon fan and was blessed to have worked with him when I was with the Halos and Joe was our interim manager, and then top bench coach. Awesome guy. I wish the Cubs well.
The AL is going to be really even I think. You could make a case for so many teams ending up at the top or bottom of their divisions.
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For those that have T-Mobile, free MLB.TV Premium this year. Sign up before 4/10.
http://www.t-mobile.com/mlb.html
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For those that have T-Mobile, free MLB.TV Premium this year. Sign up before 4/10.
http://www.t-mobile.com/mlb.html
That's fantastic. Mlb.tv is a great service. I subscribe and it is worth every penny if you are a junkie.
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The AL is going to be really even I think. You could make a case for so many teams ending up at the top or bottom of their divisions.
The AL is really really good. I was just a little surprised at the Hapless comment considering the Angels had the best record in the AL two years ago, and lost out on the playoffs last year on the last game of the season. They're going to have a tough time because the league and division are so tough, but hoping for a solid year and to be in the conversation to the end. Injuries will be key for us.
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The AL is really really good. I was just a little surprised at the Hapless comment considering the Angels had the best record in the AL two years ago, and lost out on the playoffs last year on the last game of the season. They're going to have a tough time because the league and division are so tough, but hoping for a solid year and to be in the conversation to the end. Injuries will be key for us.
As an outsider, it is the pitching that looks sketchy to me. Richards is great, but after him? Wilson and Weaver are question marks. Heaney could be very good, but has what 120 innings in his career? Shoemaker is ok, Santiago is the wild card. The Angels really need him to at least repeat what he did last year.
The questions in the rotation is why I personally doubt them.
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Bryce Harper is already my 2016 MVP.
(http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/sites/csnwashington/files/screen_shot_2016-04-04_at_9.45.00_pm.png)
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NL Division Winners: Cardinals, Giants, Nationals
NL Wildcards: Cubs, Dodgers
AL Division Winners: Royals, Astros, Blue Jays
AL Wildcards: Red Sox, Mariners
World Series: Giants over Blue Jays
The Cubs will be able to hit, but I don't think their starting pitching is going to hold up enough to win the division. It'd be nearly impossible for Arrieta to duplicate last season, Lackey is 37 and coming off his highest workload since 2007, Lester's elbow is a ticking timebomb and I don't have a whole lot of trust in Hendricks or Hammel. They have the assets to make a deal at the deadline and the FO appears to really like Tyson Ross so you never know. It should be a fun, interesting season.
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The AL is really really good. I was just a little surprised at the Hapless comment considering the Angels had the best record in the AL two years ago, and lost out on the playoffs last year on the last game of the season. They're going to have a tough time because the league and division are so tough, but hoping for a solid year and to be in the conversation to the end. Injuries will be key for us.
I'm an AL fan and agree it's better than the NL. Really good? I'd say evenly balanced. My low opinion of the Angels is based on their starting pitching (Richards is a low #1 or a high #2, Heaney has good stuff but is unproven, Shoemaker, Santiago and Tropeano don't inspire and CJ Wilson is always hurt. Weaver? - an 80 mph fastball, he's running on fumes.) Trout is awesome but there's not much batting in front of him and not a whole lot of protection behind - he might walk 150 times this year. IF Pujols, Calhoun and Cron have big years they could be good - big if.
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NL Division Winners: Cardinals, Giants, Nationals
NL Wildcards: Cubs, Dodgers
AL Division Winners: Royals, Astros, Blue Jays
AL Wildcards: Red Sox, Mariners
World Series: Giants over Blue Jays
The Cubs will be able to hit, but I don't think their starting pitching is going to hold up enough to win the division. It'd be nearly impossible for Arrieta to duplicate last season, Lackey is 37 and coming off his highest workload since 2007, Lester's elbow is a ticking timebomb and I don't have a whole lot of trust in Hendricks or Hammel. They have the assets to make a deal at the deadline and the FO appears to really like Tyson Ross so you never know. It should be a fun, interesting season.
Health is a question mark for every starting pitching staff. The Cardinals staff is good, but has just as worrisome injury issues. Hammel and Hendricks are a more than serviceable 4/5 combo, but I agree that it is more likely than not that the Cubs add another elite starting pitcher at the deadline.
My prediction for the NL Central:
Cubs 98-64
Pirates 92-70 (wild card)
Cardinals 88-74
Brewers 73-89
Reds A little - A lot
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NL Division Winners: Cardinals, Giants, Nationals
NL Wildcards: Cubs, Dodgers
AL Division Winners: Royals, Astros, Blue Jays
AL Wildcards: Red Sox, Mariners
World Series: Giants over Blue Jays
The Cubs will be able to hit, but I don't think their starting pitching is going to hold up enough to win the division. It'd be nearly impossible for Arrieta to duplicate last season, Lackey is 37 and coming off his highest workload since 2007, Lester's elbow is a ticking timebomb and I don't have a whole lot of trust in Hendricks or Hammel. They have the assets to make a deal at the deadline and the FO appears to really like Tyson Ross so you never know. It should be a fun, interesting season.
The Cardinals have many more questions as a team, including their pitching staff, than do the Cubs. Their offense wasn't good last year, and aside from Grichuk and Piscotty (who both outperformed expectations), they are getting old on that side of the field. I assume Wainwright will be Wainwright. Martinez and Garcia are both very good but injury risks. Same goes for Wacha. Leake is a serviceable innings eater but nothing special.
Arrieta doesn't have to duplicate last season. His ERA could be a full run higher this year and it would still be an excellent year. He certainly looked like himself last night.
The Cubs knew of Lester's bone chip when they signed him so I'm not sure why his elbow is now suddenly a ticking time bomb.
As for Lackey, Hammel, and Hendricks, they should be solid, especially with that offense behind them. And as mentioned below, they have the prospects to bring in another starter this summer if necessary.
I may be biased but other than being contrarian I don't see how the Cards win the division, assuming good health for both teams.
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Brewers start 2-10 and lose 100 games. Hopefully Lucroy starts hot so we can get anything for him. Unfortunately we're not getting anything for Braun no matter how hot he might start.
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The Cubs will win 100 games or more. They are LOADED. They don't have enough spots for everybody so a trade for a starter is inevitable.
The Nationals are the NL'S only hope to stop the colossus residing on the North Side.
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Opening night for the Tigers and the Marlins. Detroit puts in a defensive replacement (Romine) at third for the bottom of the 9th up 3 runs. I turn to my wife (more of a Tiger junkie than I am) and say 'Cool, he will get to bat in the 10th after K-Rod blows the save.' Then I laugh as it happens.
As close to divorce as I have gotten in 24 years of marriage.
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The Cubs will win 100 games or more. They are LOADED. They don't have enough spots for everybody so a trade for a starter is inevitable.
The Nationals are the NL'S only hope to stop the colossus residing on the North Side.
(http://snltranscripts.jt.org/03/pics/03cupdate2.jpg)
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The Cubs will win 100 games or more. They are LOADED. They don't have enough spots for everybody so a trade for a starter is inevitable.
The Nationals are the NL'S only hope to stop the colossus residing on the North Side.
I don't disagree with you that a trade for another starter is likely (I won't say inevitable). However, if it does occur I think it will be for different reasons.
The season is long and injuries/slumps will happen. Having guys like Soler and Baez on the bench is absolutely huge for depth, insurance, and keeping guys fresh, so if the Cubs do make a trade for an arm I think it is much more likely it will involve guys from the system vs. guys who are contributing at the major league level (such as Baez or Soler).
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As much as I dislike the Cubs, I acknowledge that this may be THE YEAR. Theo has done it the right way. Built up the farm system. Gotten a dynamic coach. Spent the money for the parts needed to put the team over the top. It is still the Cubs and so until they actually do it, the curse lingers. But the pieces are in place.
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The Cardinals have many more questions as a team, including their pitching staff, than do the Cubs. Their offense wasn't good last year, and aside from Grichuk and Piscotty (who both outperformed expectations), they are getting old on that side of the field. I assume Wainwright will be Wainwright. Martinez and Garcia are both very good but injury risks. Same goes for Wacha. Leake is a serviceable innings eater but nothing special.
Arrieta doesn't have to duplicate last season. His ERA could be a full run higher this year and it would still be an excellent year. He certainly looked like himself last night.
The Cubs knew of Lester's bone chip when they signed him so I'm not sure why his elbow is now suddenly a ticking time bomb.
As for Lackey, Hammel, and Hendricks, they should be solid, especially with that offense behind them. And as mentioned below, they have the prospects to bring in another starter this summer if necessary.
I may be biased but other than being contrarian I don't see how the Cards win the division, assuming good health for both teams.
Lester's elbow issue was only recently brought to light...and it was actually called a "grenade" not a "ticking time bomb." My mistake.
I picked the Cardinals to win the division because the Cardinals ALWAYS seem to win the division and the Cubs always seem to fall short of expectations. I'm simply playing the percentages based on what I've witnessed during my 35 years as a Cub fan ;)
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Lester's elbow issue was only recently brought to light...and it was actually called a "grenade" not a "ticking time bomb." My mistake.
I picked the Cardinals to win the division because the Cardinals ALWAYS seem to win the division and the Cubs always seem to fall short of expectations. I'm simply playing the percentages based on what I've witnessed during my 35 years as a Cub fan ;)
In regards to Lester, referring to it as a grenade makes it sound worse than it is (and you're right in that is how one source referred to it). He looked good last night. Hopefully he stays healthy.
Can the Cardinals win the division? Of course they can - they are still a good team. And while you can't account for injuries the Cubs are the better team as of today. Bryant, Schwarber, Russell, Heyward, and Soler just went 2-35 in that Angels series and the Cubs still put up 15 runs in two games.
There's no curse. There's just years of mismanagement and ineptitude by the team's previous owners and front offices. Not having won in 108 years will have nothing to do with what the team does this season and in the future. And if there is a manager and a group of players that won't let that pressure get to them it is Maddon and these guys.
I'm not going to be one of those fans that expects the worst because of the past or freaks out every time the team loses a few games in a row. Even though it's a bit cheesy, you should embrace just how good this team is and should be for the next few years.
Plus I f'n hate the Cardinals so I sure won't pick them when I believe the Cubs are the better team.
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The Cubs will win 100 games or more. They are LOADED. They don't have enough spots for everybody so a trade for a starter is inevitable.
The Nationals are the NL'S only hope to stop the colossus residing on the North Side.
Ummm, the Mets? Remember them? They dominated the Cubs in the NLCS, remember? They got better this off seaon too.
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Opening night for the Tigers and the Marlins. Detroit puts in a defensive replacement (Romine) at third for the bottom of the 9th up 3 runs. I turn to my wife (more of a Tiger junkie than I am) and say 'Cool, he will get to bat in the 10th after K-Rod blows the save.' Then I laugh as it happens.
As close to divorce as I have gotten in 24 years of marriage.
Being the Tigers closer is like being the Bears QB... Yikes.
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Spinal Tap drummer luck when you are a Detroit closer. Same luck as a Lion's defensive back.
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Hey, the Brewers have five top 100 prospects. It's going to be a slow process, but it's better than the several years of having one top 100 prospect checking in at 96 overall. If lucky, maybe one of the players picked out of the dumpster to fill the roster this season will turn out ok as well.
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In addition to the product on the field, the Wrigley Rehab is looking mighty nice.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/illinois/chicago/wrigleyfield/?cam=wrigleyfield_hd
NEW
(http://static.earthcamcdn.com/hof/illinois/chicago/wrigleyfield/1460036901259_36.jpg)
OLD
(http://galleries.thetomharrison.com/Portfolio/Output/i-tjfhRWR/0/X2/20121018-225356-5DIII-Edit-X2.jpg)
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Hey, the Brewers have five top 100 prospects. It's going to be a slow process, but it's better than the several years of having one top 100 prospect checking in at 96 overall. If lucky, maybe one of the players picked out of the dumpster to fill the roster this season will turn out ok as well.
That's what the Cubs did. It'll take longer than you want though.
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That's what the Cubs did. It'll take longer than you want though.
Exactly. It's a painful process when your team is intentionally trying to lose.
Something really needs to change in terms of MLB draft order. Rewarding teams for tanking simply isn't a good process.
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Exactly. It's a painful process when your team is intentionally trying to lose.
Something really needs to change in terms of MLB draft order. Rewarding teams for tanking simply isn't a good process.
Except for small market teams or teams that need a complete rebuild, it is really the best strategy. While there's no guarantee it will work, it was well worth the pain over those years. I'm sure Astros fans would say the same thing.
The changes to the draft in the CBA were an issue in that they didn't allow small market teams to put as many resources as they wanted into drafting and development.
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I'm sure Astros fans would say the same thing.
It's hard to get all 3 of the Astros' fans to agree on anything.
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Major collision between Schwarber and Fowler in the outfield tonight. Schwarber was down for a while, and it looked bad. Initial reports are negative xrays on the ankle, MRI coming tomorrow.
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Major collision between Schwarber and Fowler in the outfield tonight. Schwarber was down for a while, and it looked bad. Initial reports are negative xrays on the ankle, MRI coming tomorrow.
Not out of the woods yet but so far that's the best the news could have been.
The team has the depth to be fine if he is out for a while. Just don't want it to be a season ender.
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That's what the Cubs did. It'll take longer than you want though.
The problem for the Crew is that the Braves, Phils, Reds, Rockies, and Padres are all rebuilding as well. It will be stiff competition for those Bryant/Schwarber/Russell type picks.
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Exactly. It's a painful process when your team is intentionally trying to lose.
Something really needs to change in terms of MLB draft order. Rewarding teams for tanking simply isn't a good process.
The Brewers aren't trying to lose. The Brewers would be thrilled to be in the playoff hunt.
They simply traded off good players that together were mediocre, for players that are hopefully great down the line.
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Not out of the woods yet but so far that's the best the news could have been.
The team has the depth to be fine if he is out for a while. Just don't want it to be a season ender.
I was seeing word of a sprain last night. That would be FANTASTIC given how it looked.
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I was seeing word of a sprain last night. That would be FANTASTIC given how it looked.
Absolutely - I was expecting the worse. Holding my breath until the MRI results are released though. Glad Fowler wasn't injured as well.
Instances like this are exactly why you don't trade key depth like Soler or Baez.
Even if he is out a couple of months the team should be fine. Just need him back for the stretch run, and assuming the season goes well, the playoffs.
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Sounds like they're worried about a season ending ACL injury...
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Sounds like they're worried about a season ending ACL injury...
Source? And if it's the Olney tweet there was a lot of room for misinterpretation.
Hopefully it's not the worst-case scenario.
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Source? And if it's the Olney tweet there was a lot of room for misinterpretation.
Hopefully it's not the worst-case scenario.
Jesse Rogers is tweeting that the MRI is looking at the knee and not the ankle.
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Heard on ESPN 1000 about an hour ago that the Cubs FO is very concerned about the injury and the possibility of an ACL tear. Granted, it was Dave Kaplan saying this and he tends to blow up a small bit of info in hopes of taking credit for breaking the story, but still. It's out there.
That said, and not to downplay Schwarber's ability, but if one of the young 'uns was going to miss time, he's the one they could afford to lose. There's no version of Jorge Soler currently backing up Bryant, Rizzo or Russell.
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Heard on ESPN 1000 about an hour ago that the Cubs FO is very concerned about the injury and the possibility of an ACL tear. Granted, it was Dave Kaplan saying this and he tends to blow up a small bit of info in hopes of taking credit for breaking the story, but still. It's out there.
That said, and not to downplay Schwarber's ability, but if one of the young 'uns was going to miss time, he's the one they could afford to lose. There's no version of Jorge Soler currently backing up Bryant, Rizzo or Russell.
Baez? Lastella?
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That said, and not to downplay Schwarber's ability, but if one of the young 'uns was going to miss time, he's the one they could afford to lose. There's no version of Jorge Soler currently backing up Bryant, Rizzo or Russell.
This is absolutely correct. If you had to choose a front line guy to lose, Schwarber would be the choice hands down. That said, health is the #1 key for the Cubs this year (as for all teams). They were remarkably healthy last year, so you have to be somewhat concerned the law of averages is going to catch up. Obviously remains to be seen, but potentially off to a rough start.
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Heard on ESPN 1000 about an hour ago that the Cubs FO is very concerned about the injury and the possibility of an ACL tear. Granted, it was Dave Kaplan saying this and he tends to blow up a small bit of info in hopes of taking credit for breaking the story, but still. It's out there.
That said, and not to downplay Schwarber's ability, but if one of the young 'uns was going to miss time, he's the one they could afford to lose. There's no version of Jorge Soler currently backing up Bryant, Rizzo or Russell.
I guess when I read that they are very concerned I take that as a pretty obvious statement. Are they very concerned because of new information and how he is feeling today or because of just how brutal the collision was last night? Either way, I hate waiting for news.
This is absolutely correct. If you had to choose a front line guy to lose, Schwarber would be the choice hands down. That said, health is the #1 key for the Cubs this year (as for all teams). They were remarkably healthy last year, so you have to be somewhat concerned the law of averages is going to catch up. Obviously remains to be seen, but potentially off to a rough start.
Exactly. They should have the depth to sustain his loss but now that depth is thinned out quite a bit and another significant injury would be a major issue.
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Especially if the Szczur guy can keep it up. Bat looks good and a way better defender than Schwarber.
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Especially if the Szczur guy can keep it up. Bat looks good and a way better defender than Schwarber.
And a Villinova alumnus.
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Especially if the Szczur guy can keep it up. Bat looks good and a way better defender than Schwarber.
He has looked much better with the bat but he's more a 25th man/5th OF than someone you want playing on a regular basis. I'd just be surprised if the offense was sustainable. Good dude, though.
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Full tear of ACL and LCL. Done for year. @#$%)(*_%@#$
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Full tear of ACL and LCL. Done for year. @#$%)(*_%@#$
Just brutal. Now more concerned for his long-term prognosis.
Huge loss but I think the team will be fine. Soler and Baez need to step up.
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Full tear of ACL and LCL. Done for year. @#$%)(*_%@#$
So it begins...you'd figure the baseball gods would have waited a few more months before making Cubs fans suffer.
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Just brutal. Now more concerned for his long-term prognosis.
Huge loss but I think the team will be fine. Soler and Baez need to step up.
I still like Soler. Always thought of him as an Adam Jones / Nelson Cruz type of guy. He's probably 2-3 years away from that level, but he will be fine this year.
Below replacement level guys like Matt Szczur are a dime a dozen.
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Let's put it this way, if there was one person the Cubs could afford to lose, it was Schwarber. You can pit Bryant in left and Baez at 3rd, same deal with LaStella and you have Soler or Szczur to play LF. They're fine now but can't afford any more injuries now.
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I still like Soler. Always thought of him as an Adam Jones / Nelson Cruz type of guy. He's probably 2-3 years away from that level, but he will be fine this year.
Below replacement level guys like Matt Szczur are a dime a dozen.
Same page on Soler. Hopefully he can take advantage of the opportunity. The talent is there. Losing a LH bat hurts though.
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Let's put it this way, if there was one person the Cubs could afford to lose, it was Schwarber. You can pit Bryant in left and Baez at 3rd, same deal with LaStella and you have Soler or Szczur to play LF. They're fine now but can't afford any more injuries now.
Agreed but still a big loss.
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So it begins...you'd figure the baseball gods would have waited a few more months before making Cubs fans suffer.
Cover SI this past week
(http://media.nbcchicago.com/images/560*741/SI+Cover-+Cubs.jpg)
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Cover SI this past week
(http://media.nbcchicago.com/images/560*741/SI+Cover-+Cubs.jpg)
Schwaber's not on that cover.
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Crazy, crazy, crazy that decisions are still made before a guy is up and walking. He could easily play baseball without an ACL. There's also a good chance that he would need surgery. But to make that decision now with all of the swelling/ inflammation is crazy. What's worse is surgery pretty much guarantees arthritis in his knee, limiting his ability to catch in the future. Rant over.
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Crazy, crazy, crazy that decisions are still made before a guy is up and walking. He could easily play baseball without an ACL. There's also a good chance that he would need surgery. But to make that decision now with all of the swelling/ inflammation is crazy. What's worse is surgery pretty much guarantees arthritis in his knee, limiting his ability to catch in the future. Rant over.
Crazy crazy crazy that you think you know better than doctors that have actually seen his MRI, no?
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Schwaber's not on that cover.
Understand, but the injury impacts the Cubs, who are on the cover.
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Understand, but the injury impacts the Cubs, who are on the cover.
Curses coming together! Oogedy boogedy!
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On the flip side how about freaking Trevor Story!
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Crazy crazy crazy that you think you know better than doctors that have actually seen his MRI, no?
Thanks for asking.
First, there is this study: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f232
Key Finding: "At five years, patients assigned to rehabilitation plus early ACL reconstruction did not differ significantly in patient reported or radiographic outcomes from those assigned to initial rehabilitation with the option of a later reconstruction."
So now it's been established that there is no significant benefit from having ACL reconstruction immediately after surgery.
Second, there is this study: http://www.jospt.org/doi/full/10.2519/jospt.2010.3345
Key Finding: "Short-term progressive exercise therapy programs are well tolerated and should be incorporated in early-stage ACL rehabilitation, either to improve knee function before ACL reconstruction or as a first step in further nonoperative management."
So now we also know that an exercise program before surgery can help outcomes after surgery. Other studies show the single best predictive outcome of ACL reconstruction is pre operative quadriceps strength, which can be worked on before surgery.
There is no reason to have ACL reconstruction right away and it's also been proved that pre-habilitation can help with post- operative outcomes.
Granted, these studies are not with professional athletes. However there have been many athletes in the NBA and NFL (two sports where an ACL is more important than baseball) that have played without one. I've treated athletes without ACLs back to sports successfully. I've also worked with professional athletes and know that they are obviously way more likely to be able to compensate for an ACL deficient knee.
If it was my son with this injury, we would start with exercise, re-evaluate in 4 to 6 weeks to see how everything was improving. If the knee felt more stable and was getting stronger, there is a chance he could come back this season. If it wasn't progressing at 4 weeks, then time for surgery. The only reason, in my opinion, for surgery now is a severe, severe knee instability (especially with the LCL tear). But there is no way that they know if it is stable or not, because A: it's been less than 24 hours (no time for decrease in inflammatory factors) and B: he also had a sever ankle sprain and is 95% likely to be in a walking boot today. There is probably no way to tell the functional stability in that knee yet.
Imaging is getting to be more and more useless in rehabilitation. We already know MRIs for low back pain are some of the biggest medical waste that we have. There are numerous studies that show significant tears in shoulder rotator cuff tendons and labrum tears, without any symptoms. With all of this information, I just hate it when we make orthopedic medical decisions without any objective, functional data.
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On the flip side how about freaking Trevor Story!
I just think of all the guys who will get burned picking him up in fantasy Baseball next week.
He may go on to have a good year especially playing at Coors, but his minor league numbers don't foretell this success.
I will go out on a limb and state the obvious - this week will be the best week of his season, if not his career.
Other than that, good for the kid. I hope he becomes a solid MLB SS.
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This new rule about breaking up a double play is for pu$$ies.
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Thanks for asking.
First, there is this study: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f232
Key Finding: "At five years, patients assigned to rehabilitation plus early ACL reconstruction did not differ significantly in patient reported or radiographic outcomes from those assigned to initial rehabilitation with the option of a later reconstruction."
So now it's been established that there is no significant benefit from having ACL reconstruction immediately after surgery.
Second, there is this study: http://www.jospt.org/doi/full/10.2519/jospt.2010.3345
Key Finding: "Short-term progressive exercise therapy programs are well tolerated and should be incorporated in early-stage ACL rehabilitation, either to improve knee function before ACL reconstruction or as a first step in further nonoperative management."
So now we also know that an exercise program before surgery can help outcomes after surgery. Other studies show the single best predictive outcome of ACL reconstruction is pre operative quadriceps strength, which can be worked on before surgery.
There is no reason to have ACL reconstruction right away and it's also been proved that pre-habilitation can help with post- operative outcomes.
Granted, these studies are not with professional athletes. However there have been many athletes in the NBA and NFL (two sports where an ACL is more important than baseball) that have played without one. I've treated athletes without ACLs back to sports successfully. I've also worked with professional athletes and know that they are obviously way more likely to be able to compensate for an ACL deficient knee.
If it was my son with this injury, we would start with exercise, re-evaluate in 4 to 6 weeks to see how everything was improving. If the knee felt more stable and was getting stronger, there is a chance he could come back this season. If it wasn't progressing at 4 weeks, then time for surgery. The only reason, in my opinion, for surgery now is a severe, severe knee instability (especially with the LCL tear). But there is no way that they know if it is stable or not, because A: it's been less than 24 hours (no time for decrease in inflammatory factors) and B: he also had a sever ankle sprain and is 95% likely to be in a walking boot today. There is probably no way to tell the functional stability in that knee yet.
Imaging is getting to be more and more useless in rehabilitation. We already know MRIs for low back pain are some of the biggest medical waste that we have. There are numerous studies that show significant tears in shoulder rotator cuff tendons and labrum tears, without any symptoms. With all of this information, I just hate it when we make orthopedic medical decisions without any objective, functional data.
All very meaningless. He plays a sport at the highest level almost 8 months out of the year. And maybe 30-40 of those games he will need to crouch down 100-120 times in a 3 hour span.
You have no idea of the severity of the injury so it seems as though you're saying that every ACL injury is equal .
He also tore his LCL which is on the outside of the knee to keep it from bending outward. It provides stability in the rotation of the knee, which comes into play maybe 2000 or so times swinging at pitches over the course of a season. If this is more than a minor tear, any doctor worth his salt will recommend surgery.
Edit: If it was just an ACL and happened to a non-athlete, your idea may make more sense than immediate surgery.
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All very meaningless. He plays a sport at the highest level almost 8 months out of the year. And maybe 30-40 of those games he will need to crouch down 100-120 times in a 3 hour span.
You have no idea of the severity of the injury so it seems as though you're saying that every ACL injury is equal .
He also tore his LCL which is on the outside of the knee to keep it from bending outward. It provides stability in the rotation of the knee, which comes into play maybe 2000 or so times swinging at pitches over the course of a season. If this is more than a minor tear, any doctor worth his salt will recommend surgery.
Edit: If it was just an ACL and happened to a non-athlete, your idea may make more sense than immediate surgery.
Making a big assumption here, but you realize you're arguing with someone who is likely an expert in the field? At minimum, I have no doubt he knows what an LCL does.
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What's worse is surgery pretty much guarantees arthritis in his knee, limiting his ability to catch in the future. Rant over.
Not worse in any way. He had about as much future ads an MLB catcher as I do. He was never going to catch. Now, long-term damage to the knee is still a major concern, and perhaps a bigger concern than the impact on the team this year. Could definitely change the trajectory of his career. He already appeared destined to be destined for a DH role. This would seem to strengthen that likelihood.
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Not worse in any way. He had about as much future ads an MLB catcher as I do. He was never going to catch. Now, long-term damage to the knee is still a major concern, and perhaps a bigger concern than the impact on the team this year. Could definitely change the trajectory of his career. He already appeared destined to be destined for a DH role. This would seem to strengthen that likelihood.
Completely disagree that he was destined to be a DH.
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Making a big assumption here, but you realize you're arguing with someone who is likely an expert in the field? At minimum, I have no doubt he knows what an LCL does.
I agree that he probably is pretty well versed as it was an intelligent post.
But, I trust the opinion of a doctor who deals with these kinds of injuries over someone who had seen neither the severity of the patient's injury nor the results of an MRI or other tests on Schwarber's knee.
The poster gave a "one diagnosis fits all" answer. No doctor would say that the treatment for every broken arm should be the same - so why would it be different with a knee injury?
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Completely disagree that he was destined to be a DH.
Perhaps. Injury or no injury, he had no future as a catcher however.
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This new rule about breaking up a double play is for pu$$ies.
Seems to be a terrible rule.
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I just think of all the guys who will get burned picking him up in fantasy Baseball next week.
He may go on to have a good year especially playing at Coors, but his minor league numbers don't foretell this success.
I will go out on a limb and state the obvious - this week will be the best week of his season, if not his career.
Other than that, good for the kid. I hope he becomes a solid MLB SS.
Wait, so you don't think he is going to hit his pace of 240 (or so) homers?!?!? ;)
And as for fantasy, even if he only hits 15 more homers this season, that is still reasonably good for a SS.
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Seems to be a terrible rule.
Why is that? The end of the Brewers / Astros game is exactly what the rule is trying to prevent. Rasmus never touched the bag and slid right past it.
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Why is that? The end of the Brewers / Astros game is exactly what the rule is trying to prevent. Rasmus never touched the bag and slid right past it.
Your correct about this. It is complicated by replay, that takes away any discretion on the part of the umpire as to whether the fielder is in any danger. Then again, that's probably the point, to eliminate the possibility all together. Slide into the bag, or don't slide at all. I don't have a problem with last night's call. Awkward because its new, but I don't really see anything wrong with it.
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Your correct about this. It is complicated by replay, that takes away any discretion on the part of the umpire as to whether the fielder is in any danger. Then again, that's probably the point, to eliminate the possibility all together. Slide into the bag, or don't slide at all. I don't have a problem with last night's call. Awkward because its new, but I don't really see anything wrong with it.
The rule has been called properly, that isn't the issue. The issue is that this is the big leagues, and breaking up 2 should be able to be part of the game. It isn't good when guys get hurt. It should be up to the umpires discretion. If the ump thinks it is beyond normal break up protocol, call him out. I think the "Posey" rule is terrible as well. Though at least with the "Utley" rule there doesn't seem to be confusion about it among the umpires.
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Wait, so you don't think he is going to hit his pace of 240 (or so) homers?!?!? ;)
And as for fantasy, even if he only hits 15 more homers this season, that is still reasonably good for a SS.
I was speaking more about the uncertainty of what happens with Reyes if/when he comes back. Without knowing what MLB will rule as far as a suspension, Colorado is on the hook for $22 million in 2016 and 2017 before a buyout is available.
I think Colorado hopes he gets a long suspension to save them millions this year and they can just let the rookie play.
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The rule has been called properly, that isn't the issue. The issue is that this is the big leagues, and breaking up 2 should be able to be part of the game. It isn't good when guys get hurt. It should be up to the umpires discretion. If the ump thinks it is beyond normal break up protocol, call him out. I think the "Posey" rule is terrible as well. Though at least with the "Utley" rule there doesn't seem to be confusion about it among the umpires.
I just don't like "umpire's discretion" because that is what leads to inconsistency. Everyone knows what the new rule is. I'm all for "easing" the rule a bit, but I just don't like too much discretion as part of that.
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Perhaps. Injury or no injury, he had no future as a catcher however.
I think that's less likely, certainly. However, he was never going to be a full-time catcher. I assume it depends on the damage they find when they get in there. I still wouldn't completely rule out him catching 1-2 games per week down the road if everything goes well.
He's more athletic than people realize. He covered a fair amount of ground before that collision - too bad he wasn't a step slower.
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Seems to be a terrible rule.
It's a classic overreaction to one play.
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All very meaningless. He plays a sport at the highest level almost 8 months out of the year. And maybe 30-40 of those games he will need to crouch down 100-120 times in a 3 hour span.
You have no idea of the severity of the injury so it seems as though you're saying that every ACL injury is equal .
He also tore his LCL which is on the outside of the knee to keep it from bending outward. It provides stability in the rotation of the knee, which comes into play maybe 2000 or so times swinging at pitches over the course of a season. If this is more than a minor tear, any doctor worth his salt will recommend surgery.
Edit: If it was just an ACL and happened to a non-athlete, your idea may make more sense than immediate surgery.
Talked to someone last night that used to work in MLB. Said 90% of what is said in media is pure speculation, so the time table that has been repeated is probably guess work at best. But I'll address some of the things that were said in your post.
1. Squatting is one of the safest exercises you can do post-operatively for ACL reconstruction. It's the first exercise we do with a patient standing up. There's little stress on the ACL in a full squat position, the reason that you see most ACL injuries in a "hyper-extension" position.
2. Not all ACL's/ patients are equal and that's exactly my point with this whole post. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I explained how if it was my son, I would be completely monitoring the process and at the first set back or weren't progressing to goals, surgery would be the best course. I loathe the individual who looks at a scan and makes a definitive diagnosis without ever actually talking/ examining the patient and in my case, I really don't know what's going and shouldn't speculate. My bad. If I had to guess, there couldn't have been any functional testing to see how he was walking, let alone anything athletic. So to rule him out until next year, is a little hasty, why I was mad. I will say, a family friend's college basketball career was severely impaired by the ignorance of an orthopedic physician, so skepticism level will always be high on my part.
3. On a LHB, the LCL is not the primary stabilizer of the left knee. If anything, there is a valgus torque that stresses the MCL. And I've known physicians to allow close family members play football 3 weeks after torn ACL, because it was their final high school games. So not all physicians think in a single plane. I want the Cubs to win the World Series this season and every decision should be made to reflect that. I thought of 2 reasons possibly to rule him out: 1. 60 day DL to gain an extra spot on the 40 man roster, but I thought Kawasaki was already on it. 2. Psychologically to not have this thing overhanging the team all season that he might come back. But like I said earlier, 90% is pure speculation.
4. The idea that a non-athlete would have an ACL reconstruction is borderline medical negligence. The small risks from surgery: DVT, infection, death are so much greater than any benefit or increase in quality of life.
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Too much confusion already and as I stated earlier, this is going to lead to MORE injuries.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/09/baffled-joe-girardi-called-joe-torre-over-chase-utley-rule/
http://nypost.com/2016/04/03/the-new-utley-rule-is-going-to-be-a-blight-on-baseball/
I loved Dallas Keuchel's response..... “Are we even playing baseball anymore??? Unbelievable.”
“It’s a bad rule,” Braves manager Fredi Gonzalez said. “I get it. People are protecting the second baseman and shortstop. As a practical matter, it doesn’t translate.”
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I just don't like "umpire's discretion" because that is what leads to inconsistency. Everyone knows what the new rule is. I'm all for "easing" the rule a bit, but I just don't like too much discretion as part of that.
Yeah, why be able to add context to a situation when you can make it absolute.
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I just don't like "umpire's discretion" because that is what leads to inconsistency. Everyone knows what the new rule is. I'm all for "easing" the rule a bit, but I just don't like too much discretion as part of that.
Here is the rule in its entirety:
A runner who engages in a “bona fide slide” shall not be called for
interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner
makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible
slide. In addition, interference shall not be called where a runner’s
contact with the fielder was caused by the fielder being positioned
in (or moving into) the runner’s legal pathway to the base.
Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a “bona fide slide”
if a runner engages in a “roll block,” or intentionally initiates (or
attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking
his leg above the fielder’s knee or throwing his arm or his upper
body.
We all know a roll block on a defenseless fielder is meant to injure. The runner can still go in hard on a slide and he can still make contact with the fielder. That is still legal. He just has to slide at the base and can't elevate his cleats above the knee. Common sense.
If the umpire determines that the runner violated this Rule 6.01(j),
the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter-runner out.
Note, however, that if the runner has already been put out then the
runner on whom the defense was attempting to make a play shall be
declared out.
I don't see where umpire discretion is even involved any more than umpire discretion is involved in every single pitch of every game. Should we ban the calling of balls and strikes - every single one involves umpire discretion.
The rule only seeks to eliminate certain types of slides that are intended to injure Black and white. Any time this is called, there will be an umpire's review, so discretion does not even enter into the equation.
Any 10 year old could have called the one that ended the Brewer's game on Friday. The runner never slid toward the base, never touched the base, and never attempted to touch the base, sliding several feet past it.
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Yeah, why be able to add context to a situation when you can make it absolute.
Because one umpire's "context" is different than anothers.
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Because one umpire's "context" is different than anothers.
So, then should MLB institute a rule where a pitcher who hits a batter with a pitch is automatically ejected? Make it black and white. Take the umpires judgement out of it.
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So, then should MLB institute a rule where a pitcher who hits a batter with a pitch is automatically ejected? Make it black and white. Take the umpires judgement out of it.
Right. Because I said that judgement and context should be removed from EVERY play. ::)
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Right. Because I said that judgement and context should be removed from EVERY play. ::)
Hahah. Well I guess you were vague enough. I guess it is hard to tell when the sultan deems human judgement valid and when it is not. So what is the scale. Sliding bad. Got it. HBP good. Got it. Both plays that happen all the time. Both rarely injure anyone. Both can have intent to injure, both happen within the normal conditions of the game.
Heck the slide is an incredibly safe play. How many injuries can you recall? 4-5? Maybe it is more, but it isn't significant overall. How many thousands of break up slides happen each season. Not exactly high risk. And the guys that do get injured, are typically out of position. Guys get injured more frequently while sliding. Same with the posey play. If Aj Pollock didn't need to slide head first to avoid a play at the plate, maybe one of the great young stars in the game wouldn't be it for the season.
It is a rule that was an over reaction. Plain and simple.
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Hahah. Well I guess you were vague enough. I guess it is hard to tell when the sultan deems human judgement valid and when it is not. So what is the scale. Sliding bad. Got it. HBP good. Got it. Both plays that happen all the time. Both rarely injure anyone. Both can have intent to injure, both happen within the normal conditions of the game.
Heck the slide is an incredibly safe play. How many injuries can you recall? 4-5? Maybe it is more, but it isn't significant overall. How many thousands of break up slides happen each season. Not exactly high risk. And the guys that do get injured, are typically out of position. Guys get injured more frequently while sliding. Same with the posey play. If Aj Pollock didn't need to slide head first to avoid a play at the plate, maybe one of the great young stars in the game wouldn't be it for the season.
It is a rule that was an over reaction. Plain and simple.
Pitchers get ejected for throwing at batters because it's a dangerous play that puts an opposing player at risk. The actual number of injuries that result is inconsequential. Sure, some umpires can overreact to HBPs and give unwarranted ejections but it's not always black and white. Sliding into second is.
Runners are called for interference when they don't slide into the bag because it's a dangerous play that puts an opposing player at risk. There's no sense in waiting around for a series of horrible injuries. If it's a dangerous, unnecessary play, get rid of it.
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Hahah. Well I guess you were vague enough. I guess it is hard to tell when the sultan deems human judgement valid and when it is not. So what is the scale. Sliding bad. Got it. HBP good. Got it. Both plays that happen all the time. Both rarely injure anyone. Both can have intent to injure, both happen within the normal conditions of the game.
Heck the slide is an incredibly safe play. How many injuries can you recall? 4-5? Maybe it is more, but it isn't significant overall. How many thousands of break up slides happen each season. Not exactly high risk. And the guys that do get injured, are typically out of position. Guys get injured more frequently while sliding. Same with the posey play. If Aj Pollock didn't need to slide head first to avoid a play at the plate, maybe one of the great young stars in the game wouldn't be it for the season.
It is a rule that was an over reaction. Plain and simple.
I get what you are saying. But my response would be that just because a lot of people don't get injured, that doesn't mean that shouldn't go away. I just don't see a logical reason to keep it other than "tradition."
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Pitchers get ejected for throwing at batters because it's a dangerous play that puts an opposing player at risk. The actual number of injuries that result is inconsequential. Sure, some umpires can overreact to HBPs and give unwarranted ejections but it's not always black and white. Sliding into second is.
Runners are called for interference when they don't slide into the bag because it's a dangerous play that puts an opposing player at risk. There's no sense in waiting around for a series of horrible injuries. If it's a dangerous, unnecessary play, get rid of it.
Exactly.
A runner can still take out an infielder on a double play. That is not against the rules. The runner just needs to slide to the base and attempt to stay on it.
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That play that ended the Brewers game was a joke. Although the umps did apply the rule correctly based on how it's written, I have two problems with the rule as it applies to this play:
1) the Brewer infielder was making no attempt to make a relay throw to 1st base to get the batter because there was no chance to get the out
2) the baserunner's slide was on the outfield side of the base, away from the fielder. He appeared to slide away from both the base and the fielder in order to avoid contact, conceding the out. There was no chance of any collision type injury from that slide.
I'm a Brewers fan so I didn't mind the call from that perspective, but that rule needs to be refined to take into consideration things like whether the fielder had any chance to make a play for another out, or whether the baserunner's slide missed the bag far away from the fielder with no attempt to make contact with the fielder.
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Twins fans... getting desperate early. No team with such a start has ever made the playoffs and most lose 100 games. Rough.
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Man, without getting ahead of myself too much, it's going to be great to finally have relevant baseball for Chicago in the summer.
Both the white sox and Cubs just keep rolling and in two completely different ways. White Sox just shut teams down and the Cubs just beat teams down. Don't know if it will last but it's damn fun to watch at the moment.
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A few guys on the Cubs including Rizzo haven't even started hitting yet.
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Twins fans... getting desperate early. No team with such a start has ever made the playoffs and most lose 100 games. Rough.
You've got my Halos coming to town....we've already lost two of our starting five pitchers to the DL. So you have a good chance to get healthy this weekend.
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Man, without getting ahead of myself too much, it's going to be great to finally have relevant baseball for Chicago in the summer.
Both the white sox and Cubs just keep rolling and in two completely different ways. White Sox just shut teams down and the Cubs just beat teams down. Don't know if it will last but it's damn fun to watch at the moment.
Cubs are gonna keep rolling along.
Sox ain't that good but should compete for a while
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Cubs are gonna keep rolling along.
Sox ain't that good but should compete for a while
Pitching is the great equalizer. If Latos returns to his old form like he has so far, they have one of the best top 4 in the league (sorry Danks) couple that with I would say arguably the best closer in the game right now. (I could be wrong on that one, don't pay attention much to trams relief pitchers but Robertson is really good)
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Pitching is the great equalizer. If Latos returns to his old form like he has so far, they have one of the best top 4 in the league (sorry Danks) couple that with I would say arguably the best closer in the game right now. (I could be wrong on that one, don't pay attention much to trams relief pitchers but Robertson is really good)
I'd be very surprised if Latos returns to form. From what I understand his stuff has not ticked up and it wouldn't surprise me if his first two starts are his best two starts. Let's see what happens when he faces some real offenses. The top 3 are great though, assuming Rodon keeps it up, which he has the pedigree for.
Robertson is very good but not quite at the level of guys like Wade Davis, Chapman, Jansen.
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Pitching is the great equalizer. If Latos returns to his old form like he has so far, they have one of the best top 4 in the league (sorry Danks) couple that with I would say arguably the best closer in the game right now. (I could be wrong on that one, don't pay attention much to trams relief pitchers but Robertson is really good)
They also have very solid guys is front of Robertson in Jones, Albers and Petricka
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Big night, Twins and Braves each get into the win column.
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Two pitches into the game and already a comment about the "great baseball fans of St. Louis" mind you, this was after the entire stadium booed Heyward. That mantra is really getting old.
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Thoughts on the new Wrigley? A major cluster again based on Saturday...three inning bathroom breaks followed by three inning food lines serving food that would make SAGA cringe Crane Kenney is just another incompetent ND alum...and a jag to boot.
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Two pitches into the game and already a comment about the "great baseball fans of St. Louis" mind you, this was after the entire stadium booed Heyward. That mantra is really getting old.
The team plays the "right" way. And their fans are nothing but classy
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Thoughts on the new Wrigley? A major cluster again based on Saturday...three inning bathroom breaks followed by three inning food lines serving food that would make SAGA cring. Crane Kenney is just another incompetent ND alum...and a jag to boot.
What?
Exact opposite on Opening Night. I'll actually say the bathroom was the most efficient I've ever been at during a sporting event.
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What?
Construction. Crane's pet project.
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Thoughts on the new Wrigley? A major cluster again based on Saturday...three inning bathroom breaks followed by three inning food lines serving food that would make SAGA cringe Crane Kenney is just another incompetent ND alum...and a jag to boot.
PTM and myself were there opening night (with a larger crowd) and none of these things were issues.
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Construction. Crane's pet project.
See edited post.
Wouldn't say it's Crane's pet project either. He's hardly involved, gives media updates and tours.
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PTM is correct. It is Carl Rice's project.
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See edited post.
Wouldn't say it's Crane's pet project either. He's hardly involved, gives media updates and tours.
Well, I saw him directing the operations cluster that was Saturday.
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Well, I saw him directing the operations cluster that was Saturday.
What operations cluster?
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Well, I saw him directing the operations cluster that was Saturday.
That isn't Crane's job. Crane is in charge of business operations. Not stadium operations.
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That isn't Crane's job. Crane is in charge of business operations. Not stadium operations.
Rice reports to Crane...
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=chc
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Rice reports to Crane...
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=chc
Be honest, you had no idea who Carl Rice was before you looked it up.
Based on your logic it's Tom Ricketts fault.
Were these lines on the third base or first base side?
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5fiC8OWSexw/SpYLet1rKkI/AAAAAAAAAwU/9WDVc5Vw3nc/s200/cranekenney.jpg)
Did this man kill your wife?
Did he switch the samples?
Did he falsify reports so Devlin MacGregor could give you Provasic?
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What operations cluster?
Security lines were actually good, although long. Considering this is new. Have heard bleachers going well. Traffic worse than it ever was...which may be expected.
Field side bathrooms were ridiculous, on the other hand. Men's rooms were a half block long inside...literally three innings...backing up traffic flow completely. Women's slightly better at two innings. As soon as you were done, you had the joy of fighting the bathroom jam to get in the food line. Another two innings fighting the bath room overflow lines that get into the food line for a shriveled up hot dog and slow motion service. I never had a beer, and spent five innings of the game under the grandstand. Only beer and super rope vendors in stands.
Worst fan venue in the major leagues still despite the nostalgia. I am hoping triangle construction eases the absolute cluster with the expanded space and reconfigured operations.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5fiC8OWSexw/SpYLet1rKkI/AAAAAAAAAwU/9WDVc5Vw3nc/s200/cranekenney.jpg)
Did this man kill your wife?
Did he switch the samples?
Did he falsify reports so Devlin MacGregor could give you Provasic?
Lol. Well known ass wipe.
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Crane was kept after the Ricketts bought the company to be the "bad guy" when it came to all the neghiborhood politics. He had a bad reputation (rightfully so) from his role when the Tribune owned it.
He's actually done a very good job now that he's stayed out of the baseball side of things.
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Security lines were actually good, although long. Considering this is new. Have heard bleachers going well. Traffic worse than it ever was...which may be expected.
Field side bathrooms were ridiculous, on the other hand. Men's rooms were a half block long inside...literally three innings...backing up traffic flow completely. Women's slightly better at two innings. As soon as you were done, you had the joy of fighting the bathroom jam to get in the food line. Another two innings fighting the bath room overflow lines that get into the food line for a shriveled up hot dog and slow motion service. I never had a beer, and spent five innings of the game under the grandstand. Only beer and super rope vendors in stands.
Worst fan venue in the major leagues still despite the nostalgia. I am hoping triangle construction eases the absolute cluster with the expanded space and reconfigured operations.
Were you on the third base or first base side?
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Security lines were actually good, although long. Considering this is new. Have heard bleachers going well. Traffic worse than it ever was...which may be expected.
Field side bathrooms were ridiculous, on the other hand. Men's rooms were a half block long inside...literally three innings...backing up traffic flow completely. Women's slightly better at two innings. As soon as you were done, you had the joy of fighting the bathroom jam to get in the food line. Another two innings fighting the bath room overflow lines that get into the food line for a shriveled up hot dog and slow motion service. I never had a beer, and spent five innings of the game under the grandstand. Only beer and super rope vendors in stands.
Worst fan venue in the major leagues still despite the nostalgia. I am hoping triangle construction eases the absolute cluster with the expanded space and reconfigured operations.
I was just shocked since I've heard and experienced the opposite of that thus far.
Maybe they had issues on Saturday? First base side?
I was quite impressed how well security went for the first game as well.
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Concourse renovations have only begun on the third base side. To this point the only real concourse work that has been completed is new steel and concrete. They have added some bathrooms (but not all) and have yet to complete the non-structural renovations (concessions, shops, etc).
Very little work has been done on the first base side.
The only portion of the stadium that is complete is the bleachers. (Not counting future connections to grandstands and light towers). That would probably be your best reference for what the completed Wrigley will look like.
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Here's some photos of the completed bleachers. Rest of the stadium will soon follow.
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2016/4/12/11413056/wrigley-field-2016-renovations-spectacular#6423275
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On third base for seats but walked through first. Both as bad, but hopefully the future phases will improve this. Food operations have always been bad with the old caverns under the third base side and food prep stations confined. This will get better in the future, I hope, although the Cubs have always been bad in Food Service.
Besides the facilities, which were stressed, why sell SRO seats at this time? Handicap accessibility very poor as well with construction. Surprised the city even permitted them. Maybe it was a bad day, they were short of seasonal staff, but it was clear they were not ready.
Arizona was very well done, btw. Well laid out for today's fan.
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Security lines were actually good, although long. Considering this is new. Have heard bleachers going well. Traffic worse than it ever was...which may be expected.
Field side bathrooms were ridiculous, on the other hand. Men's rooms were a half block long inside...literally three innings...backing up traffic flow completely. Women's slightly better at two innings. As soon as you were done, you had the joy of fighting the bathroom jam to get in the food line. Another two innings fighting the bath room overflow lines that get into the food line for a shriveled up hot dog and slow motion service. I never had a beer, and spent five innings of the game under the grandstand. Only beer and super rope vendors in stands.
Worst fan venue in the major leagues still despite the nostalgia. I am hoping triangle construction eases the absolute cluster with the expanded space and reconfigured operations.
The concourse is not done yet. If you spent 5 innings under the grandstand that's poor planning on your part. And while the food isn't great definite improvements have already been made.
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The concourse is not done yet. If you spent 5 innings under the grandstand that's poor planning on your part. And while the food isn't great definite improvements have already been made.
Me and 20,000 other fans...
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This surprises me because last year the media was all over the three inning delays people had but there was no mention of anything this weekend.
In addition, we were there for a larger crowd on Opening Night with no issues except some long security lines.
I just asked a guy I worked with if he had any issues in the game he went to on Sunday and he had no delays either.
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Me and 20,000 other fans...
I was there opening night and it was packed. I got food prior to the game starting and was able to use the bathroom a couple of times and only miss a batter or two each inning because of how I timed it. (I was in section 122, I believe). Granted, if it is someone who can't move as quickly that could be an issue so my apologies if that's the case.
I just have a hard time seeing missing more than half the game, even though there are still clearly improvements to be made.
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#bestfansinbaseball
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly (http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly)
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#bestfansinbaseball
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly (http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly)
I wish I could say I'm surprised....
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I truly do not understand the vitriol directed at Heyward. How was he in any way beholden to resign with the Cardinals? He gave his all when he played for them for the ONE year he was on the team. Didn't verbally agree to resign with them as far as I remember. He decided to go elsewhere.
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I truly do not understand the vitriol directed at Heyward. How was he in any way beholden to resign with the Cardinals? He gave his all when he played for them for the ONE year he was on the team. Didn't verbally agree to resign with them as far as I remember. He decided to go elsewhere.
Shhh, don't question the best fans in baseball, they're never wrong.
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I truly do not understand the vitriol directed at Heyward. How was he in any way beholden to resign with the Cardinals? He gave his all when he played for them for the ONE year he was on the team. Didn't verbally agree to resign with them as far as I remember. He decided to go elsewhere.
Its honestly the funniest in a line of hypocritical Cardinals fanship. He was traded to the Cardinals, played there for a season and in his first chance at free agency ever, chose to go to a fun young team with title aspirations. Wasn't home grown, didn't jump ship after loyalty...more like he spent a year there and realized he didn't like STL and GTFO of Dodge.
Also, insert joke about Lackey feeling the need to get new veneers on his teeth upon arrival in a major market.
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Shhh, don't question the best fans in baseball, they're never wrong.
Cardinals fans are idiots and all, but they're hardly alone in this particular example of said idiocy.
Perhaps Cubs fans ought to be reminded of the treatment Greg Maddux received upon his return to Wrigley after signing with the Braves.
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#bestfansinbaseball
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly (http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly)
Not a Cards fan, but ....
http://deadspin.com/no-espn-did-not-air-cardinals-fans-yelling-racial-slur-1771860332
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Cardinals fans are idiots and all, but they're hardly alone in this particular example of said idiocy.
Perhaps Cubs fans ought to be reminded of the treatment Greg Maddux received upon his return to Wrigley after signing with the Braves.
To be fair, Maddux was homegrown, played 7 years, and was coming off a Cy Young and his contract talks weren't particularly pleasant. Couple that with opening the very next season at Wrigley on opening day.
Every team has idiot fans, the circumstances of this particular bit of Cardinals garbage is whats amusing. It would be like the Brewers fans going crazy when Sabathia came back to town.
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I was there opening night and it was packed. I got food prior to the game starting and was able to use the bathroom a couple of times and only miss a batter or two each inning because of how I timed it. (I was in section 122, I believe). Granted, if it is someone who can't move as quickly that could be an issue so my apologies if that's the case.
I just have a hard time seeing missing more than half the game, even though there are still clearly improvements to be made.
No problem or offense on the bluster. Part of the fun on Scoop and I don't ever take personally...and I give and get good-naturedly.
Love the design of Wrigley although the physical plant limits what can be done...and the design gets all it can out of it. Would have been better to shave off the upper deck, though, although protected.
I have professional experience with the operations of Wrigley and the know the catacombs on the left field side well. This round of construction included improvements here to food operations...it didn't improve things. It is a mess for food. It won't get better as it is limited. And the Cubs put their $$ in the wrong place here, IMO. Get used to shriveled sausage. BeeJay has.
Liquor and beer is better. But, why "cash only" at kiosks? Why not wireless for vendors like on the airplanes? Really?...god invented the wireless Internet and debit card, why can't they figure that out?
Troughs versus ceramic? Ginger vs. Mary Ann? Troughs is the answer. In defense, the port-o-potties for field side on opening day, were not available on Saturday. Seems like they readjusted on Sunday. Good for Cubs. Crane was getting it Saturday.
Special needs? If the Cubs permitted Handicap Entrance is the Captain Morgan's corner, with the Traffic Cop Skin Heads using eff bombs in front of kids to ask why it is taking so long to unload wheelchairs, then so be it.
Bleachers Rock. Clearly only major incremental improvement so far besides clubhouses. Those in line for five innings agree (no bluster, btw, for once).
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#bestfansinbaseball
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly (http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/jason-heyward-blitzed-n-word-taunts-cardinals-fans-article-1.2606853?cid=bitly)
Word is, it didn't happen
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I truly do not understand the vitriol directed at Heyward. How was he in any way beholden to resign with the Cardinals? He gave his all when he played for them for the ONE year he was on the team. Didn't verbally agree to resign with them as far as I remember. He decided to go elsewhere.
I think it has something to do with the perceived slight Heyward threw at the Cards when he said something lime the Cubs have a better core.
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I think it has something to do with the perceived slight Heyward threw at the Cards when he said something lime the Cubs have a better core.
Exactly. He took less total money* from the Cubs and implied that the Cubs were a young up-and-coming team while the Cardinals were aging and on the decline. Aside from probably being right, it was a matter of him trying to endear himself to his new team and fans as opposed to a parting shot at his former team. In addition, Wainwright called him out for not wanting to be "the man" on the Cards so the meatheads ran with that.
* - The Cubs paid more upfront and included the opt out which, if he has 3 good seasons, will likely lead to another big, long-term payday considering he'll only be 29.
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Take this guy out of the outfield and let him pitch!
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/new-york-yankees-aaron-hicks-throw-105-mph-record-mlb
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Arrieta throws another no-no, gets on base 3 times, and Cubs win 16-0.
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So, Jake is kinda good.
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Take this guy out of the outfield and let him pitch!
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/new-york-yankees-aaron-hicks-throw-105-mph-record-mlb
Except if he was on the mound without a running start .... I doubt if he would clock 95.
Still an impressive throw, tho'.
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Arrieta throws another no-no, gets on base 3 times, and Cubs win 16-0.
Cmon. Anyone can throw a no no with 3 walks. I'm not impressed. ;)
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Cmon. Anyone can throw a no no with 3 walks. I'm not impressed. ;)
Arrieta only gets the easy no hitters.
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Cmon. Anyone can throw a no no with 3 walks. I'm not impressed. ;)
4 walks, actually. He was a mess out there. :)
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Through 16 games the Cubs have a +60 run differential. 14 teams haven't scored more than 60 runs themselves, and two more have 61.
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4 walks, actually. He was a mess out there. :)
Haha. Wow. Edwin Jackson style.
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Haha. Wow. Edwin Jackson style.
Edwin had 8 walks and threw 30 more pitches so not quite. I've definitely seen Arrieta have better stuff though.
Jake Arrieta has allowed 7 ER in his last 119 1/3 IP. David Price allowed 8 ER YESTERDAY in 3 2/3 IP.
I'm sure I'm getting annoying but I've never seen anything like it.
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Edwin had 8 walks and threw 30 more pitches so not quite. I've definitely seen Arrieta have better stuff though.
Jake Arrieta has allowed 7 ER in his last 119 1/3 IP. David Price allowed 8 ER YESTERDAY in 3 2/3 IP.
I'm sure I'm getting annoying but I've never seen anything like it.
Yes I thought I was obviously being facetious. Should have used teal apparently.
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I'm sure I'm getting annoying but I've never seen anything like it.
I unnatural carnal knowledgeing love the Cubs, and he has been outstanding.
But in 2000, the height of the steroid era, Pedro had a 1.74 ERA with 284 K's, (10.1 WAR). The next-best ERA in the American League was Roger Clemens' 3.70. I've never seen anything like that.
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I watched Koufax as a kid. His high ERA over his last 4 years was 2.04. His high WHIP was 0.985.
89 complete games over his last 4 years.
No-hitters in four consecutive years.
I've never seen anything like it.
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Yes I thought I was obviously being facetious. Should have used teal apparently.
Well you are a Sox fan so I couldn't be sure.....
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Hahahaha! Completely fair point.
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Sox turned in a routine 9-3-2-6-2-5 triple play tonight. Just horrific baserunning by the Rangers. They finished with their 4th shutout of the season (Sox pitching that is).
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Man I love Brett Lawrie
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There are certainly a lot of great Sophmore players this year in the MLB. But man, Michael Conforto is playing like he is the best hitter of a great crop (at least right now). Hitting 3rd on a likely playoff team, and just crushing the ball. That guy is just hitting everything.
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There are certainly a lot of great Sophmore players this year in the MLB. But man, Michael Conforto is playing like he is the best hitter of a great crop (at least right now). Hitting 3rd on a likely playoff team, and just crushing the ball. That guy is just hitting everything.
40 minutes after this post, Conforto hits a dinger. Man, is he in the zone.
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40 minutes after this post, Conforto hits a dinger. Man, is he in the zone.
He hits the ball hard. Obviously, he'll have some struggles when pitchers start to catch up to him, bur being able to drive the ball is always an asset.
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There are certainly a lot of great Sophmore players this year in the MLB. But man, Michael Conforto is playing like he is the best hitter of a great crop (at least right now). Hitting 3rd on a likely playoff team, and just crushing the ball. That guy is just hitting everything.
ZiPS was insanely high on him, I followed, drafted in every league this year. Loving it.
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ZiPS was insanely high on him, I followed, drafted in every league this year. Loving it.
I have him on all my teams as well, didn't know about the zips stuff, but this kid can hit. He certainly looks like a .300 hitter with good pop and on base skills.
He was showing great K zone judgement and walking a lot earlier in the year down in the lineup, but since moving to the 3 hole, pitchers are going after him more instead of walking him with Cespedes behind him, and he has just been crushing it.
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It's tough to keep Baez and Szczur off the field right now. I know that Soler needs AB's to keep developing, but people forgot too quickly what Baez was supposed to be and some of that is starting to surface.
Also. We need to just start Hammel pitching in mid-August next season.
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It's tough to keep Baez and Szczur off the field right now. I know that Soler needs AB's to keep developing, but people forgot too quickly what Baez was supposed to be and some of that is starting to surface.
Also. We need to just start Hammel pitching in mid-August next season.
Just got a lot easier. Szczur to the DL. Ryan Kalish called up, disappointing all fans of the Murt.
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Sox release Danks. A nice surprise
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Sox release Danks. A nice surprise
Yes indeed. Was at the game tonight - love the way we're pitching it and catching it - and Abreu looks like he's out of hid funk.
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Sox tickets for Royals game 5/22?
Didn't want to start a stand alone thread because i'm assuming cricket chirps but figured i'd check here before hitting SubHub.
Taking the family up to Chicago for a long weekend and the Royals happen to be in town so we're hitting a day game - if anyone is looking to sell tickets in a family friendly area (i don't want my kids to get beer thrown at them for wearing Royals jerseys) let me know.
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Just got a lot easier. Szczur to the DL. Ryan Kalish called up, disappointing all fans of the Murt.
Saw that. Too bad for Szczur. He was finally finding some sustained success. Hopefully he'll be back soon.
I remember Kalish in his first run with the team and how disappointing that was. Supposedly he's made some changes with his swing and is healthy.
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Yes indeed. Was at the game tonight - love the way we're pitching it and catching it - and Abreu looks like he's out of hid funk.
With 6 multi-hit games in his last 7, I feel pretty comfortable agreeing with you there. I can't help but feeling like we will see a power binge from him in the near future.
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Cubs sweep the Pirates to open up a 6 game lead, outscoring them 20 - 5 in the series. Big 4 game series coming up against the Nats.
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With 6 multi-hit games in his last 7, I feel pretty comfortable agreeing with you there. I can't help but feeling like we will see a power binge from him in the near future.
Went deep tonight in a loss to Boson.
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Cubs sweep the Pirates to open up a 6 game lead, outscoring them 20 - 5 in the series. Big 4 game series coming up against the Nats.
Nats look good. This series should be a good one. The Mets are also surging. Thankfully Washington and NY are in the same division and can fight it out.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some real inflated records this year. There has been a lot more parody in the last few seasons than there had been for a long time, but there seem to be high number of teams who are just throwing anybody out on the field........ and MLB wants to expand.
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Halos....3 starting pitchers gone already. Brutal.
People actually talking about trading Trout
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Halos....3 starting pitchers gone already. Brutal.
People actually talking about trading Trout
Obviously it's difficult to get appropriate value for a player of that caliber. But based on the talent on the MLB team, the money tied up in guys like Pujols, and the awful farm system, isn't it something that they at least have to discuss?
I just think it's unlikely they and another team could actually come to an agreement.
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Obviously it's difficult to get appropriate value for a player of that caliber. But based on the talent on the MLB team, the money tied up in guys like Pujols, and the awful farm system, isn't it something that they at least have to discuss?
I just think it's unlikely they and another team could actually come to an agreement.
He's only 24. It would be crazy.
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He's only 24. It would be crazy.
I don't necessarily think it would be crazy. If he plays on mediocre teams for the next four years he may bolt when he hits free agency. I think it's extremely unlikely but to not even consider it would be a mistake. Anaheim doesn't seem close to competing over the next few years. Ultimately I don't think he's going anywhere because it would be too difficult for teams to agree on what his value is.
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I don't necessarily think it would be crazy. If he plays on mediocre teams for the next four years he may bolt when he hits free agency. I think it's extremely unlikely but to not even consider it would be a mistake. Anaheim doesn't seem close to competing over the next few years. Ultimately I don't think he's going anywhere because it would be too difficult for teams to agree on what his value is.
It would be crazy. Did you know that by the end of this season, it is possible that he has the highest WAR for a player through 24. OF ALL TIME. He is under team control for what, 4-5 more years? The Angels have a ton of money coming off the books next year, and more the year after. And prospects don't pan out. How did getting Cam Maybin and Andrew Miller for Cabrera work out? It is crazy. Unless they get, like Harvey, and Syndergaard and Conforto. Is that enough? I don't even know. It is Mike Trout. He has been the best player in the game since the day he arrived. He is still what, 3 years from his prime. He could still be getting better. There is no way they get better by trading him. Maybe their farm gets better, but I don't see how trading him gets them closer to a World Series.
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It would be crazy. Did you know that by the end of this season, it is possible that he has the highest WAR for a player through 24. OF ALL TIME. He is under team control for what, 4-5 more years? The Angels have a ton of money coming off the books next year, and more the year after. And prospects don't pan out. How did getting Cam Maybin and Andrew Miller for Cabrera work out? It is crazy. Unless they get, like Harvey, and Syndergaard and Conforto. Is that enough? I don't even know. It is Mike Trout. He has been the best player in the game since the day he arrived. He is still what, 3 years from his prime. He could still be getting better. There is no way they get better by trading him. Maybe their farm gets better, but I don't see how trading him gets them closer to a World Series.
You're missing the point. I'm not saying it's the right decision and it's extremely unlikely but it is crazy to not explore it.
They have one of the worst, if not the worst, farm system in baseball. They don't have much young, impact talent at the major league level. Their two best arms are now hurt. They have money tied up in mediocre, aging players.
And who cares if they have money coming off the books? So they can spend it on more players who are past their primes? And they'd really have to overpay to get players to come to a mediocre team.
They'd have to get young major league talent and prospects. It won't happen but I think they're in such bad shape that there's no harm in exploring it.
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Sox tickets for Royals game 5/22?
Didn't want to start a stand alone thread because i'm assuming cricket chirps but figured i'd check here before hitting SubHub.
Taking the family up to Chicago for a long weekend and the Royals happen to be in town so we're hitting a day game - if anyone is looking to sell tickets in a family friendly area (i don't want my kids to get beer thrown at them for wearing Royals jerseys) let me know.
The tv in the hotel room is probably your best bet. Comiskey is not a nice place.
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The tv in the hotel room is probably your best bet. Comiskey is not a nice place.
Really...It's a fine area of the city. Just because it's the south side doesn't mean it's a bad place. They really built that area up.
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Really...It's a fine area of the city. Just because it's the south side doesn't mean it's a bad place. They really built that area up.
Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
Plenty of times. Even there for a Cubs/Sox game and didn't see that crap from either fan base.
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
Was there tonight as I've been about 1,200 times before.
I feel like I've been missing out on this kind of excitement you're talking about. We must go to different games or something.
I've totally been missing the opportunity to dump my $9.50 beers off the upper deck. Will have to go next week and try that. Apparently it's a tradition I was unaware of.
But there is first place baseball on both sides of town. Soak it in while it lasts, as you would a beer poured on you from the upper deck
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
Which happens everywhere.
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IMO I have seen more fan unpleasantness at and around Wrigley than I have at and around Comiskey.
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The Cell is a great park, especially for families. A ton to do and see there. I've befriended a lot of people in the Sox marketing office, they will go out of their way to make sure it's a great experience if you stop by the office behind home plate on the 100 level concourse.
Cubs/Sox crowd/attendance/stadium arguments are so tiresome. There are 2 great ballparks in Chicago, each offers a different experience. Both teams are great this season so far, no matter who you cheer for, you should enjoy it and relish in it. This is beyond rare. I'm a Sox fan, but have no issue complimenting the Cubs incredible run, just awesome.
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
I miss old McCuddy's too
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The uniforms worn throughout baseball today for Mother's Day were sweeeeet.
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The uniforms worn throughout baseball today for Mother's Day were sweeeeet.
My family went to the Angels game today....uniforms were great....another injury to one of our best players...but the unis were sweet.
Happy to report that though we sat about 15 rows behind the Angels dugout, we survived not being killed or maimed either by foul balls. As soon as we got there, I sat on the inside, my son next to me, followed by wife, then daughter. Cell phones in pockets except during warmups between innings. Good times
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Ausmus is a dead man walking as manager of the Tigers.
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
I'm a huge Cubs fan, but go to between 5-10 Sox games a year. Never seen anything like this. It's a beautiful park, (the upper deck could continue to be improved) and a lot of fun for families. I take my 10, 7, and 4 year-old often.
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My family went to the Angels game today....uniforms were great....another injury to one of our best players...but the unis were sweet.
Happy to report that though we sat about 15 rows behind the Angels dugout, we survived not being killed or maimed either by foul balls. As soon as we got there, I sat on the inside, my son next to me, followed by wife, then daughter. Cell phones in pockets except during warmups between innings. Good times
We all know how you feel. You don't need to drive it home on each baseball related post.
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
Stinks for the fan, but whatever works...
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
Lol. Okay.
Hey, everyone, take those wins off the board. They don't count.
I assume you'll discount all other sporting events where teams try and remove the opponent's best player. Offenses in football throwing away from a good corner, double teaming a player in bball, etc.
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
Don't blame Arrieta/Maddon. Blame Ryan Zimmerman for not hitting or Dusty Baker for not moving red-hot Daniel Murphy up in the order to hit directly behind Harper. With no one protecting Harper in the line-up, why give him anything to hit?
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
Harper got on base 13 times. The nationals couldn't capitalize. Cubs strategy worked.
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Lol. Okay.
Hey, everyone, take those wins off the board. They don't count.
I assume you'll discount all other sporting events where teams try and remove the opponent's best player. Offenses in football throwing away from a good corner, double teaming a player in bball, etc.
Wow, a tad sensitive there eh? I was joking around. That is what winky face means. And yes, totally Zimmerman's fault. And Dusty's. Why isn't Murphy hitting behind Harper? If I am Mike Rizzo, this series told me I need to find a bat in a hurry.
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Harper got on base 13 times. The nationals couldn't capitalize. Cubs strategy worked.
14, they drilled him to go along with the 13 BBs.
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Wow, a tad sensitive there eh? I was joking around. That is what winky face means. And yes, totally Zimmerman's fault. And Dusty's. Why isn't Murphy hitting behind Harper? If I am Mike Rizzo, this series told me I need to find a bat in a hurry.
Completely agree. If there is any manger in baseball where you can say that the game left him behind, it is Dusty. You have all of this talent in Washington and now, for the second year in a row, probably the worst manager in MLB to guide them.
A no-brainer to put Murphy behind Harper for now. Move Harper to the 2nd spot and Murphy to 3rd. You also get some extra ABs for both guys that way. Instead, Dusty puts 4 guys with OBPs under .300 in the top 6 spots
Currently, their #1 and #2 hitters have OBPs of .260 and .290. Move Rendon down until he starts hitting.
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http://www.brewcrewball.com/2016/5/9/11638968/milwaukee-brewers-trade-rumors-chicago-cubs-interested-in-ryan-braun
Sweet Jesus please make this happen.
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http://www.brewcrewball.com/2016/5/9/11638968/milwaukee-brewers-trade-rumors-chicago-cubs-interested-in-ryan-braun
Sweet Jesus please make this happen.
My god, that comment section. It's worse then scoop after a Depaul lose.
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My god, that comment section. It's worse then scoop after a Depaul lose.
It's the type of site where this tweet....
"Jim Bowden
ESPN Senior Writer
Possible Trade targets for Cubs between now and deadline could be dominated by left fielders with Kyle Schwarber injured and Jorge Soler not hitting. Options could include: Carlos Gonzalez, Jay Bruce, Nick Markakis, Ryan Braun and Josh Reddick."
..turns into this headline:
"Chicago Cubs Interested in Ryan Braun"
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http://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/i-love-people-complaining-about-the-cubs-walking-bryce-harper-make-baseball-fun-again-by-winning/
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I'll take that fat Schwarber kid for Braun. Straight up.
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I'll take that fat Schwarber kid for Braun. Straight up.
I'll take 2 game balls and a pack of Big League Chew while giving them Braun and $10M.
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I'll take 2 game balls and a pack of Big League Chew while giving them Braun and $10M.
Not sure why the Cubs would want him. I wouldn't think they'd want a guy on a long term deal. They still have Schwarber, Heyward, Soler, Baez and Bryant that could be OF options. And those are only the guys on the major league roster. Obviously, I am probably wrong.
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Happy to report that though we sat about 15 rows behind the Angels dugout, we survived not being killed or maimed either by foul balls. As soon as we got there, I sat on the inside, my son next to me, followed by wife, then daughter. Cell phones in pockets except during warmups between innings. Good times
I sat in similar seats for a Brewers game recently. I'm usually in the upper deck so may have been more on edge than a normal person who sits there. Our group was diligent watching any RH batters , but I definitely wouldn't have minded a screen there. I was wondering if I would be quick enough to react to a screamer at our section.
To each their own I guess. Plus, there were fans not paying as close attention as we were. Honestly, a screen probably would have improved my fan experience.
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Not sure why the Cubs would want him. I wouldn't think they'd want a guy on a long term deal. They still have Schwarber, Heyward, Soler, Baez and Bryant that could be OF options. And those are only the guys on the major league roster. Obviously, I am probably wrong.
You're not wrong. The Cubs don't want Braun, (or any OF who is owed $76M from 2017-2021).
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80% of the starting rotation out, some for at least a year. Best fielding short stop, out for 3 months. Awesome first month of the season.
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80% of the starting rotation out, some for at least a year. Best fielding short stop, out for 3 months. Awesome first month of the season.
And their biggest problem is they don't hit or score runs.
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It's the type of site where this tweet....
"Jim Bowden
ESPN Senior Writer
Possible Trade targets for Cubs between now and deadline could be dominated by left fielders with Kyle Schwarber injured and Jorge Soler not hitting. Options could include: Carlos Gonzalez, Jay Bruce, Nick Markakis, Ryan Braun and Josh Reddick."
..turns into this headline:
"Chicago Cubs Interested in Ryan Braun"
Exactly. The Brew Crew Ball article was asinine. The Cubs would be much more likely to go after Reddick (drafted by Theo on '06 and in final year of deal) than Braun and his remaining $80 mil. On top of that, the Cubs aren't going to give any prospects to a division rival in the midst of rebuild.
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http://www.brewcrewball.com/2016/5/9/11638968/milwaukee-brewers-trade-rumors-chicago-cubs-interested-in-ryan-braun
Sweet Jesus please make this happen.
Jesus suiting up for the Cubs is just as likely as the Cubs trading for Braun.
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Jesus suiting up for the Cubs is just as likely as the Cubs trading for Braun.
Cubs already have plenty of middle infielders.
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Cubs already have plenty of middle infielders.
What? I thought he was a catcher? http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/monteje01.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/monteje01.shtml)
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What? I thought he was a catcher? http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/monteje01.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/monteje01.shtml)
A .253 career hitter?
(https://memecrunch.com/meme/7DKHA/you-trying-to-say-jesus-christ-cant-hit-a-curve-ball/image.png?w=500&c=1)
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I'm a huge Cubs fan, but go to between 5-10 Sox games a year. Never seen anything like this. It's a beautiful park, (the upper deck could continue to be improved) and a lot of fun for families. I take my 10, 7, and 4 year-old often.
I probably should've put 'family friendly' in teal. Anyway - May 22nd, section 123 behind Royals dugout (row 18 if memory serves). naginiF family won't be hard to spot.
Also - by FAR the worst experiences i've had at sporting events were both in Indianapolis at Colt games. The combination of a genuine lack of football knowledge, insecurity and machismo is a bad one.
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I know the Cubs swept, but to walk Harper 13 times (and a HBP), cmon. Especially Arrieta. He is the freaking reigning Cy Young winner. To be the best, you gotta walk the best, I guess. Can't see Kershaw doing that. To me that makes last week's 7-0 all pretty hollow. ;)
I assume that wink means the entire thing is teal. If not, this is maybe the worst post in the history of the internet.
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So Kershaw just keeps doing his thing. 77 Ks to 4 BB this season. 4. None of which have scored. Another Cy Young leader, Jake Arrieta, has 3 starts in which he has walked 4. That's right, a K/BB rate of almost 20. 5 times better than Chris Sale's ratio. He just had his 5th consecutive game of 10 or more Ks (Neither Chicago ace has a single one). This guy is just dominant. He has 2 CG shutouts, each allowing 4 and 3 baserunners.
Trout and Harper get the bulk of the love in baseball right now. But this guy is astounding. He is a generational talent. If he retired tomorrow, I think he'd safely be in the HOF. According to BBref, the most similar pitchers through 27 are Seaver, Pedro and Clemens. He has already won 4 titles. That equals Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, and outpaces most HOFer (the only players with more are Lefty Grove, Clemens, Pete Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kofax and Pedro). He is pitching this season at 28.
Kershaw is currently leading the league in CG, SH, IP, K, WHIP, FIP, K/9, K/BB.
Just watching his starts is worth the price of MLB.tv.
Sorry, and now back to our regularly scheduled program...
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So Kershaw just keeps doing his thing. 77 Ks to 4 BB this season. 4. None of which have scored. Another Cy Young leader, Jake Arrieta, has 3 starts in which he has walked 4. That's right, a K/BB rate of almost 20. 5 times better than Chris Sale's ratio. He just had his 5th consecutive game of 10 or more Ks (Neither Chicago ace has a single one). This guy is just dominant. He has 2 CG shutouts, each allowing 4 and 3 baserunners.
Trout and Harper get the bulk of the love in baseball right now. But this guy is astounding. He is a generational talent. If he retired tomorrow, I think he'd safely be in the HOF. According to BBref, the most similar pitchers through 27 are Seaver, Pedro and Clemens. He has already won 4 titles. That equals Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, and outpaces most HOFer (the only players with more are Lefty Grove, Clemens, Pete Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kofax and Pedro). He is pitching this season at 28.
Kershaw is currently leading the league in CG, SH, IP, K, WHIP, FIP, K/9, K/BB.
Just watching his starts is worth the price of MLB.tv.
Sorry, and now back to our regularly scheduled program...
PEDs
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So Kershaw just keeps doing his thing. 77 Ks to 4 BB this season. 4. None of which have scored. Another Cy Young leader, Jake Arrieta, has 3 starts in which he has walked 4. That's right, a K/BB rate of almost 20. 5 times better than Chris Sale's ratio. He just had his 5th consecutive game of 10 or more Ks (Neither Chicago ace has a single one). This guy is just dominant. He has 2 CG shutouts, each allowing 4 and 3 baserunners.
Trout and Harper get the bulk of the love in baseball right now. But this guy is astounding. He is a generational talent. If he retired tomorrow, I think he'd safely be in the HOF. According to BBref, the most similar pitchers through 27 are Seaver, Pedro and Clemens. He has already won 4 titles. That equals Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, and outpaces most HOFer (the only players with more are Lefty Grove, Clemens, Pete Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kofax and Pedro). He is pitching this season at 28.
Kershaw is currently leading the league in CG, SH, IP, K, WHIP, FIP, K/9, K/BB.
Just watching his starts is worth the price of MLB.tv.
Sorry, and now back to our regularly scheduled program...
The problem is not that Kershaw is great, but that for you him being great is somehow an argument that someone else isn't great.
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The problem is not that Kershaw is great, but that for you him being great is somehow an argument that someone else isn't great.
No that wasnt the point at all. :o
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So Kershaw just keeps doing his thing. 77 Ks to 4 BB this season. 4. None of which have scored. Another Cy Young leader, Jake Arrieta, has 3 starts in which he has walked 4. That's right, a K/BB rate of almost 20. 5 times better than Chris Sale's ratio. He just had his 5th consecutive game of 10 or more Ks (Neither Chicago ace has a single one). This guy is just dominant. He has 2 CG shutouts, each allowing 4 and 3 baserunners.
Trout and Harper get the bulk of the love in baseball right now. But this guy is astounding. He is a generational talent. If he retired tomorrow, I think he'd safely be in the HOF. According to BBref, the most similar pitchers through 27 are Seaver, Pedro and Clemens. He has already won 4 titles. That equals Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, and outpaces most HOFer (the only players with more are Lefty Grove, Clemens, Pete Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Kofax and Pedro). He is pitching this season at 28.
Kershaw is currently leading the league in CG, SH, IP, K, WHIP, FIP, K/9, K/BB.
Just watching his starts is worth the price of MLB.tv.
Sorry, and now back to our regularly scheduled program...
Absolutely agree that Kershaw is a generational talent, but he's gonna have to shake his fairly earned reputation for not being a big-game playoff pitcher. By any metric (ERA, WHIP), he's been significantly worse, outside of his 2013 NLDS performance. Even his NLDS performance against the Cards last year was "better" but still nothing like you'd expect out of a perennial Cy Young candidate.
Yes, Arrieta was also shaky in the playoffs last year but he threw an absolute gem in the biggest game of his career and the biggest Cubs game in 5 years against the Pirates.
I suppose you could say they both may be victims of pitching 225+ innings a year.
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He just had his 5th consecutive game of 10 or more Ks (Neither Chicago ace has a single one).
I guess Arrieta read your post and decided to correct the situation by throwing 11 Ks yesterday.
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Well, Bautista finally got what he (maybe) deserved, eh?
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Well, Bautista finally got what he (maybe) deserved, eh?
7 months later, in the last game of a series. God bless the "unwritten rules of baseball". You can interpret whatever happened after, but the beaning of Bautista that set it all off was incredible lame in my opinion.
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7 months later, in the last game of a series. God bless the "unwritten rules of baseball". You can interpret whatever happened after, but the beaning of Bautista that set it all off was incredible lame in my opinion.
I just loved that someone actually threw a punch. Normally those things in baseball are all "tough" guys getting in each other's faces, waiting for one of their teammates to hold them back. Not this one. It was awesome.
And if more 2B/SS throw punches for crapty slides, I'm betting there will be fewer crapty slides.
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You've got to retaliate right away, you don't wait until next year, regardless scenario. If you're mad enough to go to blows, do it that game.
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If I was Bautista, I would have bat flipped right after getting hit.
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Have you been to comiskey? Place is a trash pool with people throwing beer off the upper decks and trying to start fights.
Happy to say we made it out of US Cellular alive. But man those Sox fans are really something else: talking to the kids about which Royals they have on their fantasy teams, insisting my wife and youngest take their seats on the jammed L, joking about their dominance of the Royals by avoiding a sweep, and generally being nice and good natured.
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White Sox have apparently acquired James Shields. Details still forthcoming.
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Sox give up Fernando Tatis Jr. and Erik Johnson in the deal. They also receive 29 million towards the contract of Shields.
Love the move for the Sox. Shields makes a pretty darn good 3 starter, and they are paying him 27 mil for 3 years. That seems quite a bit better than market rate.
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Sox give up Fernando Tatis Jr. and Erik Johnson in the deal. They also receive 29 million towards the contract of Shields.
Love the move for the Sox. Shields makes a pretty darn good 3 starter, and they are paying him 27 mil for 3 years. That seems quite a bit better than market rate.
Seems like a solid deal, especially with SD picking up part of the tab. Not sure I'd classify Shields as a 3 overall anymore (although he'll be the Sox 3).
Not sure the Sox are going anywhere though unless they make another move or two.
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How 'bout dem Brewers, hey?
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This may sound stupid, but I like the Shields trade more so for 2017 than this year. I'm assuming he won't opt out, but it solves a long term problem, and I'm fine with him being their third starter. If they could get a bat by moving Rodon, I'd be ok with it.
Big week coming up for the Sox. I want to say they have 5 of the top 100 picks in the draft, I know they have two first rounders. For a team that has struggled drafting position players, they need to hit on 2 of these 5 picks.
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Seems like a solid deal, especially with SD picking up part of the tab. Not sure I'd classify Shields as a 3 overall anymore (although he'll be the Sox 3).
Not sure the Sox are going anywhere though unless they make another move or two.
Not sure there are more than a few teams that have a better 3 than Shields. And, I agree Dish, good move for next year as well, especially considering how thin the the free agent class is looking.
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Not sure there are more than a few teams that have a better 3 than Shields. And, I agree Dish, good move for next year as well, especially considering how thin the the free agent class is looking.
There a certainly more than a few teams that have a better "3" than Shields, such as the Cubs, Mets, Nats, SF, Cleveland, Toronto. There's also a number of teams you could make a solid argument for as well, such as St. Louis, Texas, TB, etc.
There's also the difference of being a 3 on any team vs a playoff caliber 3, which I know is subjective.
Shields as actually fairly mediocre at this point, IMO. He's nowhere near the pitcher he was. Still a solid trade considering what he is replacing and the money SD is eating, but I wouldn't expect a ton. We'll see how the move to the AL and the Cell and the move out of Petco goes. 4.50 ERA/4.14 FIP on the road last year.
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This may sound stupid, but I like the Shields trade more so for 2017 than this year. I'm assuming he won't opt out, but it solves a long term problem, and I'm fine with him being their third starter. If they could get a bat by moving Rodon, I'd be ok with it.
Big week coming up for the Sox. I want to say they have 5 of the top 100 picks in the draft, I know they have two first rounders. For a team that has struggled drafting position players, they need to hit on 2 of these 5 picks.
Agree. This improves their pitching staff for the next 3 years. Another solid move by Rick Hahn.
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There a certainly more than a few teams that have a better "3" than Shields, such as the Cubs, Mets, Nats, SF, Cleveland, Toronto. There's also a number of teams you could make a solid argument for as well, such as St. Louis, Texas, TB, etc.
There's also the difference of being a 3 on any team vs a playoff caliber 3, which I know is subjective.
Shields as actually fairly mediocre at this point, IMO. He's nowhere near the pitcher he was. Still a solid trade considering what he is replacing and the money SD is eating, but I wouldn't expect a ton. We'll see how the move to the AL and the Cell and the move out of Petco goes. 4.50 ERA/4.14 FIP on the road last year.
It hurts your credibility to claim that Samardizja, who was the worst qualifying pitcher in baseball last year, is better than Shields. There arent many numbers that would support that claim.
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It hurts your credibility to claim that Samardizja, who was the worst qualifying pitcher in baseball last year, is better than Shields. There arent many numbers that would support that claim.
Since when does being right hurt someone's credibility?
Samardzija was brutal last year for the White Sox. He's been very good for SF this year. In fact, last year looks like the anomaly - and I'm no Shark fan. As it stands today he is a better pitcher than Shields.
As I said a couple of times, it's a solid move considering all of the factors but if you expect the Shields of old you are going to be extremely disappointed.
What is that now - 18 losses in 24 games?
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Shark -- Career numbers (as a starter) : ERA 4.07; WHIP 1.24; record 44- 59;
Shields -- ERA 3.76; WHIP 1.24; record 129- 104
So career wise, Shields has been better. Especially considering, last year excluded, Shark has been in the NL and Shields in the AL.
As for Shark being so much better this year, well... Shields has gone at least 6 innings in every start but 1. He has allowed 3 runs or fewer in 8/11 starts. Samardizja has had 3 starts in which he has not gone 6 innings. He has given up 3 or fewer in 9/12.
Shark's career numbers also say he is considerably better in the first half than the second half, where Shields stays basically the same.
Last year was an anomaly, Samardizja isn't that bad. But he isn't all that great either. He is a pretty basic 3 starter. Same as Shields.
The historical numbers are certainly in Shields' favor. But you are right. It makes no sense to expect the Shields from 5 years ago. But the numbers this year aren't so much in Shark's favor as you would make it seem. And apart from one disastrous start, Shields has given his team a chance to win every start.
Most of those teams you mentioned have a claim for a better 3, but most are not clear cut.
And by the way, as for your last comment, yeah, they are playing terrible, but that has nothing to do with this conversation.
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Shark -- Career numbers (as a starter) : ERA 4.07; WHIP 1.24; record 44- 59;
Shields -- ERA 3.76; WHIP 1.24; record 129- 104
So career wise, Shields has been better. Especially considering, last year excluded, Shark has been in the NL and Shields in the AL.
As for Shark being so much better this year, well... Shields has gone at least 6 innings in every start but 1. He has allowed 3 runs or fewer in 8/11 starts. Samardizja has had 3 starts in which he has not gone 6 innings. He has given up 3 or fewer in 9/12.
Shark's career numbers also say he is considerably better in the first half than the second half, where Shields stays basically the same.
Last year was an anomaly, Samardizja isn't that bad. But he isn't all that great either. He is a pretty basic 3 starter. Same as Shields.
The historical numbers are certainly in Shields' favor. But you are right. It makes no sense to expect the Shields from 5 years ago. But the numbers this year aren't so much in Shark's favor as you would make it seem. And apart from one disastrous start, Shields has given his team a chance to win every start.
Most of those teams you mentioned have a claim for a better 3, but most are not clear cut.
And by the way, as for your last comment, yeah, they are playing terrible, but that has nothing to do with this conversation.
I don't think career numbers mean much at this point. Shields has definitely been the better pitcher throughout his career.
Was Samardzija that bad last year because of the AL and pitching half his games at the Cell? Was he tipping his pitches as I recently heard? Shields has given up a crap ton of HRs last year and into this year. That's not going to get any better coming into the AL and pitching in Chicago.
But to say suggesting Samardzija is currently the better pitcher removes my credibility is silly. Maybe it's not as clear cut as I believe it to be. However, I think most would consider Samardzija the better pitcher as it stands today.
And yes, I threw in that last part to be annoy you. Guilty.
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Looks like you two have a side bet to make
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Dodgers have cut 45 million in players in the last week. Wow.
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Big week coming up for the MLB. The Draft begins on Thursday. Could be a huge day for the Sox as they have 3 picks in the top 50, and 2 in the first round. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty in the top of the draft with no clear cut 1-1. Most mocks have AJ Puk going first, but there are 3-4 credible choices in that spot. The Sox have been linked to a couple guys in the 10 spot, OFer Corey Ray, who is an alum of the teams ACE program, HS OFers Mickey Moniak and Blake Rutherford. Some mocks have college hitters Nicks Senzel (3B) or Collins (a C, but Schwarber-like in that he is a massive slugger that is questionable to stay behind the plate). This seems to be the year the Sox don't take a college pitcher with their first pick.
They have been pretty consistently linked with Wisconsin HS SS Gavin Lux for the #26 pick.
Anyone else have any interest in the MLB draft? Any insights?
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Prospect to which the Brewers have been tied, a SS from PR named Delvin Perez has reportedly failed a drug test.
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Machado should receive some kind of commendation for taking out Yordano last night. Ventura had it coming.
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Machado should receive some kind of commendation for taking out Yordano last night. Ventura had it coming.
Completely. I did like how Manny dodged and weaved before knocking Ventura down with 1 punch. Ventura is a train wreck. He has massive amounts of talent, but he is a headcase. The levels at which he is currently preforming do not support the head case factor he brings.
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Shields throwing BP so far in his Sox debut. 79 pitches to get through 2 innings.
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Brewers picking #5.
I'd like to see them go for a high ceiling pitcher. AJ Pint would be great. They've also been tied to outfielders Blake Rutherford and Corey Ray.
Collins also an option for Brewers, would save them some money to use on later picks. He's got a pretty high k rate (though more bb's than Schwarber). Would be a quick bat to the majors as a 1b if things went right.
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Brewers picking #5.
I'd like to see them go for a high ceiling pitcher. AJ Pint would be great. They've also been tied to outfielders Blake Rutherford and Corey Ray.
Collins also an option for Brewers, would save them some money to use on later picks. He's got a pretty high k rate (though more bb's than Schwarber). Would be a quick bat to the majors as a 1b if things went right.
Who is AJ Pint?
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Riley Pint
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Wasn't sure if you were talking about Pint or Puk.
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Sounds like Puk is going #1. Groome and Delvin Perez sound like they are falling. Perez way down with the PED test positive.
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Sounds like Puk is going #1. Groome and Delvin Perez sound like they are falling. Perez way down with the PED test positive.
Seems like a lot of the word today says moniak going 1 and puk falling down a bit. Ray seems to be moving up and the sox seem to have no shot at him, maybe not even the brewers.
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Shields throwing BP so far in his Sox debut. 79 pitches to get through 2 innings.
Shark threw bp for a year. Thanks for caring though.
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I don't see what the bustle is over Ray. At least not top 5, imo. Really struggles against lefties.
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Not sure if this is interesting to anyone else or not, but this morning my son Bradley & I were guests at a Sox event at Ronald McDonald House. Sale, Duke, Purke, and Latos were there. Around noon, there was a home run derby event on the roof of the House. Latos pitched to Bradley, and he homered. After that, Purke came in to pitch. I noticed Latos went off to a corner, we were going to approach him for a chat, and my daughter distracted me for a minute, and I noticed Latos in a rush to leave.
I made the joke later that Bradley's homer was the last straw for the Sox and then they released him.
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Shark threw bp for a year. Thanks for caring though.
You're welcome. He'll clearly be better but he simply isn't a 3 anymore.
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Of course, Corey Ray to Brewers.
meh. Puk and Groome still on the board.
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I'm looking for a silver lining here: Keith Law has Corey Ray as his #1 prospect.
1. Corey Ray, OF
Louisville
Previous rank: 1
Although Ray could slip out of the top five, I still think he's the best all-around player in the draft class, a power-speed guy who has a good idea of the strike zone and plenty of bat speed, giving him a high floor of an everyday left fielder
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White Sox got Zach Collins.
Like their pick a lot.
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Of course, Corey Ray to Brewers.
meh. Puk and Groome still on the board.
I like the pick. The last thing a rebuilding team needs is a pitcher coming out of HS. Watching video of Riley Pint reminds me of why guys have TJ surgery. He's looks like an arm injury waiting to happen.
Go the Cubs route - get a bunch of good, young position players. Since they will be cheap for a while, you can add a couple FA arms once the young hitters are ready.
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Not sure the Brewers have the $$ for top line pitchers via free agency...maybe. More likely they would flip top position player prospects for ace pitcher.
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White Sox got Zach Collins.
Like their pick a lot.
Have the Sox drafted a real quality hitter since Mags?
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Have the Sox drafted a real quality hitter since Mags?
They didnt draft Magglio. He was an International free agent. They signed C Lee after him and drafted guys like Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede. Their pick from 2 years ago is a SS named tim anderson who is a top 50 or so prospect hittinghitting over .300 in AAA.
Collins is the highest they've taken a hitter since Big Frank. They have certainly focused on pitching with their top picks recently.
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I'm looking for a silver lining here: Keith Law has Corey Ray as his #1 prospect.
1. Corey Ray, OF
Louisville
Previous rank: 1
Although Ray could slip out of the top five, I still think he's the best all-around player in the draft class, a power-speed guy who has a good idea of the strike zone and plenty of bat speed, giving him a high floor of an everyday left fielder
Not sure why it is a struggle to find a silver lining. Power speed combo. Can play any OF position. He was the ops leader on team usa I believe. Legit 5 tool talent.
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The pick is growing on me but the Brewers picked up CF Trent Clark last year. Would have been nice to attempt to get an ace power arm, since we aren't getting one in free agency.
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The pick is growing on me but the Brewers picked up CF Trent Clark last year. Would have been nice to attempt to get an ace power arm, since we aren't getting one in free agency.
That's a good point. There were several available as well, including Puk, but it seems like he isn't as much of a sure thing as most college guys that go that high, so maybe that is why. I know it means nothing, but all the experts say Ray's floor is an everyday LF. So he was a safe pick with some upside as well.
The Sox grabbed two power arms with their comp pick. Zack Burdi completes the Samardizja trade in a way, throws 101, so that is interesting. Some scouting reports say he could help a MLB club this year, and with their 3rd pick they grabbed Alec Hansen, a 6-7 RHP that throws 97-100 with a plus slider and change but with some command issues.
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They didnt draft Magglio. He was an International free agent. They signed C Lee after him and drafted guys like Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede. Their pick from 2 years ago is a SS named tim anderson who is a top 50 or so prospect hittinghitting over .300 in AAA.
Collins is the highest they've taken a hitter since Big Frank. They have certainly focused on pitching with their top picks recently.
Gordon Beckham hasn't panned out completely, but was the Sox first-round pick in '08.
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That's a good point. There were several available as well, including Puk, but it seems like he isn't as much of a sure thing as most college guys that go that high, so maybe that is why. I know it means nothing, but all the experts say Ray's floor is an everyday LF. So he was a safe pick with some upside as well.
The Sox grabbed two power arms with their comp pick. Zack Burdi completes the Samardizja trade in a way, throws 101, so that is interesting. Some scouting reports say he could help a MLB club this year, and with their 3rd pick they grabbed Alec Hansen, a 6-7 RHP that throws 97-100 with a plus slider and change but with some command issues.
Liked the Burdi pick as well. Sounds like he's on the fast track to the bigs. White Sox had a very good draft, imo.
Thought I heard Puk hasn't gone farther than 4 2/3 innings in awhile. Big project, imo. I would have taken:
1. Matt Manning
2. Braxton Garrett if I was picking.
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Liked the Burdi pick as well. Sounds like he's on the fast track to the bigs. White Sox had a very good draft, imo.
Thought I heard Puk hasn't gone farther than 4 2/3 innings in awhile. Big project, imo. I would have taken:
1. Matt Manning
2. Braxton Garrett if I was picking.
The word was that Manning had (and has) signability concerns, so that could have been a factor anyways. It seems like he was top 5 talent, but dropped because of his demands.
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Gordon Beckham hasn't panned out completely, but was the Sox first-round pick in '08.
He had such a good rookie season too.
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Time to find out about Anderson. Sox called him up today.
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Completely. I did like how Manny dodged and weaved before knocking Ventura down with 1 punch. Ventura is a train wreck. He has massive amounts of talent, but he is a headcase. The levels at which he is currently preforming do not support the head case factor he brings.
He's only 25 with a $750K payroll hit - he's a head case but with his age, salary and potential, as a fan, i'm happy he's a Royal
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Machado should receive some kind of commendation for taking out Yordano last night. Ventura had it coming.
Yeah but Machado isn't a punk...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/11054046/baltimore-orioles-oakland-scuffle-manny-machado-bat-throwing
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Yeah but Machado isn't a punk...
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/11054046/baltimore-orioles-oakland-scuffle-manny-machado-bat-throwing
He had a couple boned-headed moments in one game 2 years ago and that makes him a punk for life?
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He had a couple boned-headed moments in one game 2 years ago and that makes him a punk for life?
Hmm. Thankfully my "boneheaded moments" have never consisted of helicoptering a baseball bat at someone.
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Machado seems alright.
Soler attacked a dugout with a bat, and he's a super good dude in the community. People have moments.
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If Sox fire Ventura I know they're serious about winning
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Shark didnt make it 5. Pitched better than Shields, but allowed 10 runners in 4.2.
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Kershaw by the way, has tied the single season record for games with 10k and no walks with 6. It is June. They guy is crazy. He is also at more than 18k/bb. The record there is about 11.5.
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If Sox fire Ventura I know they're serious about winning
Robin is good people but he's got to go.
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Robin is good people but he's got to go.
I'm sure Robin Ventura is a good guy, and the players seem to like him. He handles some issues well. He got a lot of credit during the stupid LaRoche-kid thing, and when the team is winning (his first year, April/May of '16), Robin's described as a manager with the right temperament.
But he makes some many head-scratching moves. Dioner Navarro has caught more innings for James Shields than any other picther, yet Robin starts Avila for Sheilds' first start. In the first inning last night, Melky Cabrera-- by far the Sox hottest hitter), bunted from the 3-spot in the first inning, (again!).
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In the first inning last night, Melky Cabrera-- by far the Sox hottest hitter), bunted from the 3-spot in the first inning, (again!).
I don't really like absolutes, but there is never a good reason to sac bunt in the 1st inning. Ever.
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You're right VBMG. Cut that dead weight now. Yikes.
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Re: James shields trade... Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.
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Re: James shields trade... Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/eeOCVjeNd6oxy/giphy.gif)
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So definitely looking for positives, but Shields settled down, got 2 innings off which to build, got them through 5. Great if ugly win for the sox.
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So definitely looking for positives, but Shields settled down, got 2 innings off which to build, got them through 5. Great if ugly win for the sox.
"Winnin' Ugly"was once a lot of fun on the south side.
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It's better than losing pretty that's for sure.
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If you're a fan of SoxMath, tonight's question is from me. I've befriended Jason Benetti, and he asked me to submit a question. Top of 4th inning on Sox's broadcast.
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If you're a fan of SoxMath, tonight's question is from me. I've befriended Jason Benetti, and he asked me to submit a question. Top of 4th inning on Sox's broadcast.
Ugh. Not sure i will make it that far. These freaking walks kill me.
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Theyre talking about you!
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They sure do suck though.
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That was pretty cool, Jason is an awesome guy, that was great of him to ask.
Answer was 83.
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That was pretty cool, Jason is an awesome guy, that was great of him to ask.
Answer was 83.
EIGHTY THREE...
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EIGHTY THREE...
I purposely made 83 the answer for that reason. It was tough figuring out questions to get there, but mission accomplished.
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NIce job working in Baines! One of my personal favorites!
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Cubs calling up Willson Contreras.
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Cubs calling up Willson Contreras.
Edit: Federowicz DFA.
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He'll have ample opportunity with Montero struggling so far this year.
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He'll have ample opportunity with Montero struggling so far this year.
I don't think Montero is entirely healthy. He's only thrown out 2 of 30 runners this year. That can kill you in the playoffs.
It doesn't make sense to call him up unless he is getting 2-4 starts per week. Ross will continue to catch Lester, my guess is Montero will continue to catch Arrieta (at least initially), and Contreras will mix in with Lackey, Hammel, and Hendricks. We'll see if as he gains experience he gets a chance to catch Jake.
The bat appears to be ready and he has a great arm. Probably still needs improvement in terms of game calling and management as well as framing. He has nothing left to prove at AAA so learning from guys like Montero and Ross at the major league level may be ideal.
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Sweet Catch by this Dad....The guy two rows back who is diving out of the way must feel two feet tall right now.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2646888-dad-makes-1-handed-grab-at-phillies-game-while-holding-young-daughter-food-tray?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2646888-dad-makes-1-handed-grab-at-phillies-game-while-holding-young-daughter-food-tray?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)
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I don't think Montero is entirely healthy. He's only thrown out 2 of 30 runners this year. That can kill you in the playoffs.
Miggy has a bad back. Tough to play catcher with a bad back. He can't come out of his stance to throw or drop down to block balls in the dirt. He can still frame pitches fairly well but has 3 passed balls and allowed 16 wild pitches in 265 innings. Compare that to Ross' 0 PB and 7 wild pitches in 259 innings. Wild pitches obviously aren't all on the catcher but that's a pretty big discrepancy.
Hopefully Contreras can hold his own because he may end up being the primary catcher down the stretch.
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Miggy has a bad back. Tough to play catcher with a bad back. He can't come out of his stance to throw or drop down to block balls in the dirt. He can still frame pitches fairly well but has 3 passed balls and allowed 16 wild pitches in 265 innings. Compare that to Ross' 0 PB and 7 wild pitches in 259 innings. Wild pitches obviously aren't all on the catcher but that's a pretty big discrepancy.
Hopefully Contreras can hold his own because he may end up being the primary catcher down the stretch.
Completely agree with this. I'll be at the game tonight so I'm hoping to see Contreras' first AB as a pinch hitter since Ross will be starting.
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So definitely looking for positives, but Shields settled down, got 2 innings off which to build, got them through 5. Great if ugly win for the sox.
You sure you don't want to reconsider your thoughts on Shields?
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You sure you don't want to reconsider your thoughts on Shields?
You sure you don't wanna let it go and just enjoy the season your team is having?
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You sure you don't wanna let it go and just enjoy the season your team is having?
Can't let it go
The Sox are experts at bad baseball and bad business. This one was a Sox Slam of futility
Danks is laughing himself to sleep every night
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Can't let it go
The Sox are experts at bad baseball and bad business. This one was a Sox Slam of futility
Danks is laughing himself to sleep every night
That's funny. I was going to post regarding Danks and Floyd until I saw your post.
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You sure you don't want to reconsider your thoughts on Shields?
Nm.
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Can't let it go
The Sox are experts at bad baseball and bad business. This one was a Sox Slam of futility
Danks is laughing himself to sleep every night
What's happening to shields doesnt change the fact that Danks sucked as well. Both are pitchers that gave the team no way to win. Hardly matters though, as Q gives them a chance to win every time and the team has given him 5 runs of support in his last 7 starts.
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Can't let it go
The Sox are experts at bad baseball and bad business. This one was a Sox Slam of futility
Danks is laughing himself to sleep every night
What's he laughing about? The other 29 teams aren't exactly beating a path to his door.
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What's he laughing about? The other 29 teams aren't exactly beating a path to his door.
Maybe the Sox going out of their way to take on the worst deal in baseball, for a guy who has a 20+ ERA while he sits back and collects.
I'd be laughing too
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You sure you don't wanna let it go and just enjoy the season your team is having?
I am enjoying the Cubs' season. My post was not about a Cubs fan giving crap to a Sox fan for no reason. There had been a previous discussion about Shields and the quality of pitcher he is both in terms of the Sox and in comparison to other rotations.
I'm certainly not going to post every time Shields has a horrific outing but he's been historically bad so far since the trade and I thought it was relevant to the previous discussion. Don't be so touchy.
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Maybe the Sox going out of their way to take on the worst deal in baseball, for a guy who has a 20+ ERA while he sits back and collects.
I'd be laughing too
Danks was worthless, has been for years. So bad that the Sox are paying him big money not to show upper work. 29 other teams agree and have no interest in him, even at the league minimum salary. Shield's last 4 starts have been horrific. Maybe he's as done as Danks is. But why JD would find it funny that there's another guy (along with him) stealing the Sox's money is beyond me.
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As a Sox fan, it's time to blow it up. They have two great starting pitchers in their 20's, who have incredibly team friendly contracts. The Red Sox, Dodgers, Rangers, Cubs have great farm systems. In a heartbeat I'd trade Sale and Quintana for 6-8 studs. If the Cubs wanted Sale, I'd take Schwarber, Contreras, Cease and call it done.
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Mets get swept by the Braves at home. WFAN should be fun tomorrow.
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Danks was worthless, has been for years. So bad that the Sox are paying him big money not to show upper work. 29 other teams agree and have no interest in him, even at the league minimum salary. Shield's last 4 starts have been horrific. Maybe he's as done as Danks is. But why JD would find it funny that there's another guy (along with him) stealing the Sox's money is beyond me.
It's funny because he Hahn and Kenny are still trying to make the fanbase believe they have a chance.
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As a Sox fan, it's time to blow it up. They have two great starting pitchers in their 20's, who have incredibly team friendly contracts. The Red Sox, Dodgers, Rangers, Cubs have great farm systems. In a heartbeat I'd trade Sale and Quintana for 6-8 studs. If the Cubs wanted Sale, I'd take Schwarber, Contreras, Cease and call it done.
Very difficult with that ownership to see that happening. Good owner for sure. But too loyal and too tied to the notion that fans deserve a short term winner even if it sacrifices long term success.
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Very difficult with that ownership to see that happening. Good owner for sure. But too loyal and too tied to the notion that fans deserve a short term winner even if it sacrifices long term success.
Weird, the Sox and the bulls seem to be having the same problems. Wonder why that could be...
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Weird, the Sox and the bulls seem to be having the same problems. Wonder why that could be...
Exactly. But both have won championships under his watch.
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Very difficult with that ownership to see that happening. Good owner for sure. But too loyal and too tied to the notion that fans deserve a short term winner even if it sacrifices long term success.
Yeah, it bothers me because I think it's short sighted, especially in this baseball era.
I look at the excitement of Tim Anderson's call up, and how Sox fans have reacted, and want to scream at their front office and say "See?!?!". Who knows if Anderson will pan out, but I (and many Sox fans) see a young, athletic position player, showing some flash, and want more. Especially with the upcoming terrible FA market this winter, I'd be open for business for any assets I have.
Bottom out this year, be honest with the fan base, tell them 2017 will be tough, trade your assets. Between a few draft classes and picking up prospects via trade, I'd happily wait until 2018. The Dunn/LaRoche/Frazier pickups haven't worked, and none of them were/are terribly exciting. None of this will happen, frustrating for me.
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As a Sox fan, it's time to blow it up. They have two great starting pitchers in their 20's, who have incredibly team friendly contracts. The Red Sox, Dodgers, Rangers, Cubs have great farm systems. In a heartbeat I'd trade Sale and Quintana for 6-8 studs. If the Cubs wanted Sale, I'd take Schwarber, Contreras, Cease and call it done.
Sale is one of the few players I could actually live with Schwarber being moved for (although in this scenario I think you'd need to substitute another prospect for Contreras).
Serious question on the topic of a Sox rebuild from a Cubs fan.....Obviously, tearing it all down and rebuilding doesn't appear to be in the Sox DNA (I'm assuming this is driven by Reinsdorf).
I don't mean this as a slam but the Sox typically have trouble drawing fans when they are playing well. With that in mind, how much more of a negative impact on attendance would a rebuild actually have?
That being said, I don't ever see them dealing Sale.
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Look at the haul the Braves got for Shelby Miller. The Marlins wanted Seager, Urias, De Leon and more for Fernandez. Sale has market value faaaaaaaar beyond Miller and his contract makes him more valuable than Jose. They can trade him, but is should be for major league talent as well as top prospects, which is what the braves got, but Sale should net substantially more.
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Sale is one of the few players I could actually live with Schwarber being moved for (although in this scenario I think you'd need to substitute another prospect for Contreras).
Serious question on the topic of a Sox rebuild from a Cubs fan.....Obviously, tearing it all down and rebuilding doesn't appear to be in the Sox DNA (I'm assuming this is driven by Reinsdorf).
I don't mean this as a slam but the Sox typically have trouble drawing fans when they are playing well. With that in mind, how much more of a negative impact on attendance would a rebuild actually have?
That being said, I don't ever see them dealing Sale.
I'd move Sale now. His velocity is down this year which is concerning to me. With his contract what it is, at a minimum they'd get 3 of 5 someone's best prospects. Quintana they'd get a similar return on (Quintana WAR 3.1, Sale 2.3). I don't think the Cubs necessarily need Sale or Quintana, but the Rangers, Dodgers, Red Sox absolutely do.
I don't think a rebuild would do much to attendance. As soon as the sweetheart deal with the state ends, and Reinsdorf's estate sells the team,then they'll move to the suburbs where they should be. They'll have a stadium in Rosemont in 20 years.
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Look at the haul the Braves got for Shelby Miller. The Marlins wanted Seager, Urias, De Leon and more for Fernandez. Sale has market value faaaaaaaar beyond Miller and his contract makes him more valuable than Jose. They can trade him, but is should be for major league talent as well as top prospects, which is what the braves got, but Sale should net substantially more.
I don't think it is that simple to an extent. So because Dave Stewart made an absolutely horrendous trade you expect the same to hold true for other teams? In fact, I think it becomes much more unlikely based on what Stewart gave up and how Miller has performed so far (and I completely get the Miller is not Sale, not even close). To me, that trade was an anomaly.
I've always maintained a trade for Sale was extremely unlikely because of what it would take for the Sox to deal him as well as what the other team would have to give up. There might be 2-3 teams that could actually even make it happen.
I've read the same things about Andrew Miller in regards to the Ken Giles trade. Just because Houston made a horrendous trade doesn't mean you can expect another team to do the same.
And I'm on the same page as you are - I think what it would take for the Sox to trade Sale is pretty unlikely. Most likely all talk.
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I'd move Sale now. His velocity is down this year which is concerning to me. With his contract what it is, at a minimum they'd get 3 of 5 someone's best prospects. Quintana they'd get a similar return on (Quintana WAR 3.1, Sale 2.3). I don't think the Cubs necessarily need Sale or Quintana, but the Rangers, Dodgers, Red Sox absolutely do.
I don't think a rebuild would do much to attendance. As soon as the sweetheart deal with the state ends, and Reinsdorf's estate sells the team,then they'll move to the suburbs where they should be. They'll have a stadium in Rosemont in 20 years.
So I've read that Sale has made the decision to cut down on velocity as a way to cut down on pitch count. Do you think that is not the case?
Agreed that the Cubs don't need Sale but if he were ever legitimately made available they'd at least inquire.
But the main point is your response on attendance. To me, if things don't turn around this year for the Sox (or even in the next 40 days), that should at the very least make rebuilding an option.
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So I've read that Sale has made the decision to cut down on velocity as a way to cut down on pitch count. Do you think that is not the case?
Agreed that the Cubs don't need Sale but if he were ever legitimately made available they'd at least inquire.
But the main point is your response on attendance. To me, if things don't turn around this year for the Sox (or even in the next 40 days), that should at the very least make rebuilding an option.
I don't buy it. He's routinely at 100 pitches in the 6th. If it's true, it's not working.
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So I've read that Sale has made the decision to cut down on velocity as a way to cut down on pitch count. Do you think that is not the case?
Agreed that the Cubs don't need Sale but if he were ever legitimately made available they'd at least inquire.
But the main point is your response on attendance. To me, if things don't turn around this year for the Sox (or even in the next 40 days), that should at the very least make rebuilding an option.
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???
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Contreras hits the first pitch he sees for a HR. Study up defensively - the bat is ready.
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nm
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Contreras hits the first pitch he sees for a HR. Study up defensively - the bat is ready.
It's been done 30 times in MLB history.
No player who did this has ever made the Hall of Fame.
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I don't buy it. He's routinely at 100 pitches in the 6th. If it's true, it's not working.
Well, he is still like 6th in the league in K's and 2nd in IP, so...
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I don't buy it. He's routinely at 100 pitches in the 6th. If it's true, it's not working.
Not quite - just in the last few starts.
In games he has pitched 7 innings or more this year, including 3 CG, he has averaged 108 pitches, so it would be pretty hard to be over 100 pitches in 6.
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Any one cast All Star votes? Here is how mine shook out.
C S. Perez J. Lucroy
1B E. Hosmer P. Goldschmidt
2B I Kinsler D. Murphy
SS F. Lindor T. Story
3B J. Donaldson N. Arenado
OF M.Trout A. Duvall
OF M. Betts S. Marte
OF I. Desmond M. Ozuna
Some interesting races going on. Just like last year, when Royal fans were skewing the numbers, Cub fans are this year in the NL. Several worthy candidates at most positions, this is how I decided to go. I know my NL OF votes are at least, well, unorthodox, but I thought those guys had earned my votes.
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Any one cast All Star votes? Here is how mine shook out.
C S. Perez J. Lucroy
1B E. Hosmer P. Goldschmidt
2B I Kinsler D. Murphy
SS F. Lindor T. Story
3B J. Donaldson N. Arenado
OF M.Trout A. Duvall
OF M. Betts S. Marte
OF I. Desmond M. Ozuna
Some interesting races going on. Just like last year, when Royal fans were skewing the numbers, Cub fans are this year in the NL. Several worthy candidates at most positions, this is how I decided to go. I know my NL OF votes are at least, well, unorthodox, but I thought those guys had earned my votes.
You don't think the best team in baseball should have any all-stars? It almost seems like you went out of your way to take Ozuna; both Bryant and Fowler have a higher WAR.
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Any one cast All Star votes? Here is how mine shook out.
C S. Perez J. Lucroy
1B E. Hosmer P. Goldschmidt
2B I Kinsler D. Murphy
SS F. Lindor T. Story
3B J. Donaldson N. Arenado
OF M.Trout A. Duvall
OF M. Betts S. Marte
OF I. Desmond M. Ozuna
Some interesting races going on. Just like last year, when Royal fans were skewing the numbers, Cub fans are this year in the NL. Several worthy candidates at most positions, this is how I decided to go. I know my NL OF votes are at least, well, unorthodox, but I thought those guys had earned my votes.
C'mon Chuckler, we need more Royals :(
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Any one cast All Star votes? Here is how mine shook out.
C S. Perez J. Lucroy
1B E. Hosmer P. Goldschmidt
2B I Kinsler D. Murphy
SS F. Lindor T. Story
3B J. Donaldson N. Arenado
OF M.Trout A. Duvall
OF M. Betts S. Marte
OF I. Desmond M. Ozuna
Some interesting races going on. Just like last year, when Royal fans were skewing the numbers, Cub fans are this year in the NL. Several worthy candidates at most positions, this is how I decided to go. I know my NL OF votes are at least, well, unorthodox, but I thought those guys had earned my votes.
Rizzo is having a slightly better year than Goldy thus far, IMO. And I don't think Duvall makes sense.
As for Cubs fans skewing the numbers, aside from Russell, it's hard to say Rizzo, Bryant, Zobrist, and Fowler aren't deserving.
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You don't think the best team in baseball should have any all-stars? It almost seems like you went out of your way to take Ozuna; both Bryant and Fowler have a higher WAR.
A historically good baseball team none the less.
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Well, thanks for critiquing my choices everyone. No, I didn't vote for any Cubs. Yes they have the best record. I voted for Ozuna, not instead of Bryant though. He is eligible as a 3B. They are not at the same position. I also don't vote based solely on WAR. Here is my rationale on the guys that were questioned.
Fowler is deserving of a votes, he just didn't get mine. I preferred Ozuna and Duvall. They are clearly not the conventional choices, but they guys I wanted to stump for.
If it seems like I went out of my way to on Ozuna, I don't think you have been paying enough attention and just did a cursory look at their WAR numbers. Ozuna has produced 15 HR, 11 2B, 4 3B, a BA of .321 OBP of .373, SLG of .565 and an OPS of .938. All his ratios are better than Bryant. I feel like that is a weird guy to question. I mean, a .938 OPS out of a CF.
As for Duvall not making sense, well, he is leading the league in SLG, he has 20 HR, 1 3B, 16 2B and 48 RBI. His OBP is nothing special as he doesn't walk, but he SLG is .590. Dude is crushing it(Plus I love the story, and its my vote so screw you :D). If not for Duvall, I would have voted for Cespedes.
Kris Bryant, who you say is deserving, has quite similar numbers. 16HR, 0 3B, 17 2B and 48 RBI. Higher OBP lower SLG, OPS that just about balance. I find it odd you question one and support another, especially when has to contend with this:
The reason I didn't vote for Bryant is that well, Arenado is better. A lot better. In every way. There is no one I would vote for over Arenado. In my opinion he is All Star 1A this year. I would vote for him over every other player at this point. There is one reason to vote for Bryant over Arenado. That reason, is that you are a Cub fan and you want your guy in the game. Which is fine. It is the All Star game.
Rizzo is quite deserving. I think Goldy is as well. Goldschmidt is out preforming Rizzo in 2/3 his slash line categories .285/.420/.506 to .275/.401/.558. In my opinion either is deserving. I feel like Goldy gets no respect for how great a player he is, so I voted for him.
Zobrist is having a great season, but really, is he more deserving than Murphy? I don't see how. And if he had the same numbers wearing a Cards jersey, I don't think you would either. I think he is a deserving All Star, I don't think he has outplayed Murphy.
All the guys you mentioned are deserving, but in my opinion, none are the most deserving at their position. The vote skewing I was referring to mostly was Bryant (again, Arenado, I think it is ridiculous not to vote for that guy) and Russell.
PS. I would have voted for Infante if the Royals didn't just cut him! Those bastards!
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You don't think the best team in baseball should have any all-stars? It almost seems like you went out of your way to take Ozuna; both Bryant and Fowler have a higher WAR.
Oh, and I didn't say they shouldn't have any all stars. I said I didn't vote for any. Arrieta and Lester are complete no brainers for the All Star team.
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Any one cast All Star votes? Here is how mine shook out.
C S. Perez J. Lucroy
1B E. Hosmer P. Goldschmidt
2B I Kinsler D. Murphy
SS F. Lindor T. Story
3B J. Donaldson N. Arenado
OF M.Trout A. Duvall
OF M. Betts S. Marte
OF I. Desmond M. Ozuna
Some interesting races going on. Just like last year, when Royal fans were skewing the numbers, Cub fans are this year in the NL. Several worthy candidates at most positions, this is how I decided to go. I know my NL OF votes are at least, well, unorthodox, but I thought those guys had earned my votes.
Good ballot, mine:
AL
C S. Perez
1B M. Cabrera
2B J.Altuve
3B J. Donaldson
SS X.Bogaerts
OF M.Trout
OF M. Betts
OF I. Desmond
DH D.Ortiz
NL
C J.Lucroy
1B P. Goldschmidt
2B B.Zobrist
3B N. Arenado
SS C.Seager
OF A.Duvall
OF S.Marte
OF M.Ozuna
Murphy having a great season, but he is a DH playing 2B. I didn't like your NL outfield at first glance, but after taking a quick dive into the stats, seemed good.
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Kinsler over Altuve and Lindor over Bogaerts were two of my most difficult choices. Another was Donaldson over Machado.
Your point on Murphy is fair, for me though, his hitting has overcome his defensive deficiencies.
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Nothing wrong with bleeding Cubbie blue. They've been the best team in baseball this year by a significant margin. Arrieta and Lester should be locks. You can make an argument that Rizzo and Zobrist should be starters - coin flips, probably. Fowler? On the DL, his numbers won't match up by the time the game is played. Russell starting is a joke - I think even the biggest Cub fan (and even Russell's Mom) would admit that.
What drives me nuts is anyone saying Kris Bryant is "deserving". To be on the team? Sure, he's a great young player having a fine year. But starting ahead of Arenado? That's brain dead partisan fan talk.
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Nothing wrong with bleeding Cubbie blue. They've been the best team in baseball this year by a significant margin. Arrieta and Lester should be locks. You can make an argument that Rizzo and Zobrist should be starters - coin flips, probably. Fowler? On the DL, his numbers won't match up by the time the game is played. Russell starting is a joke - I think even the biggest Cub fan (and even Russell's Mom) would admit that.
What drives me nuts is anyone saying Kris Bryant is "deserving". To be on the team? Sure, he's a great young player having a fine year. But starting ahead of Arenado? That's brain dead partisan fan talk.
I think debates like these are interesting. On the one hand, the all star voting system is basically set up to be "partisan fan talk." And part of me understands that. If we just go completely by who is having a "good year" so far, you are building a team based on less than half a year's worth of games. Is that really what we should be basing all star votes on?
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Nothing wrong with bleeding Cubbie blue. They've been the best team in baseball this year by a significant margin. Arrieta and Lester should be locks. You can make an argument that Rizzo and Zobrist should be starters - coin flips, probably. Fowler? On the DL, his numbers won't match up by the time the game is played. Russell starting is a joke - I think even the biggest Cub fan (and even Russell's Mom) would admit that.
What drives me nuts is anyone saying Kris Bryant is "deserving". To be on the team? Sure, he's a great young player having a fine year. But starting ahead of Arenado? That's brain dead partisan fan talk.
I know I never said Bryant should be over Arrenado.
Bryant should be as an outfielder.
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I know I never said Bryant should be over Arrenado.
Bryant should be as an outfielder.
43 appearances at third, 42 in the outfield, 4 at first and 1 at short.
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43 appearances at third, 42 in the outfield, 4 at first and 1 at short.
Yes.
You put Arrenado at 3rd, Bryant in LF, and have the #1 and #5 players in NL WAR in your starting All-Star lineup.
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Yes.
You put Arrenado at 3rd, Bryant in LF, and have the #1 and #5 players in NL WAR in your starting All-Star lineup.
Have you seen the All Star Ballot? Guys are listed by their position. Yes, Bryant plays games the OF, on the ballot he is listed as a 3B. Voting for him is voting for him over Arenado. It is the same as not being able to vote for Donaldson and Machado, or Lindor Bogaerts and Correa.
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Have you seen the All Star Ballot? Guys are listed by their position. Yes, Bryant plays games the OF, on the ballot he is listed as a 3B. Voting for him is voting for him over Arenado. It is the same as not being able to vote for Donaldson and Machado, or Lindor Bogaerts and Correa.
I didn't know that. That's stupid.
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The fact that the ASG has actual meaning yet the starters are based on a popularity contest is completely asinine.
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I didn't know that. That's stupid.
Well, thanks for telling me I was stretching on my picks without having any idea how the system works. That seems pretty solid.
The system is pretty weird. Though, you would think, that a team with a legit shot at the WS, their fans would vote for the best team to try to have that advantage. The fact that the game decides what it does is weird. But before this system it just rotated, which also seems like a weird way of determining something that can have such an impact.
I think they should use the interleague record to determine home field.
I think because of the imbalance in the schedules, it is hard to just use straight record, though that makes more sense than the All Star Game.
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I didn't know that. That's stupid.
I don't know if it is stupid. Not sure how they could do it any other way without having hand-written ballots. The team gets to decide which position to list the players at.
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Well, thanks for telling me I was stretching on my picks without having any idea how the system works. That seems pretty solid.
The system is pretty weird. Though, you would think, that a team with a legit shot at the WS, their fans would vote for the best team to try to have that advantage. The fact that the game decides what it does is weird. But before this system it just rotated, which also seems like a weird way of determining something that can have such an impact.
I think they should use the interleague record to determine home field.
I think because of the imbalance in the schedules, it is hard to just use straight record, though that makes more sense than the All Star Game.
I agree. The current All Star game determines home field advantage for the World Series is a wild over-reaction to the 2002 All-Star game ending in a tie because each team ran out of pitchers.
The MLB All-Star game is the only all-star game I watch because it is the only one where the players that are in the game are trying their best to win. The game has evolved into the managers making sure they get everyone in, so strategy-wise they are not trying their absolute best to win, but the players on the field are hitting and pitching and defending to the absolute best of their ability, unlike the other sports where defense is lacking.
I think if they want to say the all-star winner matters, they should use it as a part of a three-pronged system. Take individual team record, NL vs AL interleague results and All-Star game as the three things to check. Whichever team/league wins 2 or 3 of those gets to be the home team.
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Well, thanks for telling me I was stretching on my picks without having any idea how the system works.
No problem.
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AS starting lineup is a farce. It only shows which fanbase has the most out of work losers that get excited about voting. Cubs win.
Fowler is a loser who should not be starting over Ryan Braun. Braun has a much higher OPS and they have the same WAR. Farcical. Thanks for ruining the AS game Cub fans.
Go Brewers!
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AS starting lineup is a farce. It only shows which fanbase has the most out of work losers that get excited about voting. Cubs win.
Fowler is a loser who should not be starting over Ryan Braun. Braun has a much higher OPS and they have the same WAR. Farcical. Thanks for ruining the AS game Cub fans.
Go Brewers!
If anything, you should be complaining about Braun being behind Jason Heyward in the voting, not Fowler. Or you could complain that Braun is ahead of Carlos Gonzalez, Marcell Ozuna and Starling Marte each of whom is having a better season ;)
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I've got no problem with someone voting for Arenado over Bryant and I hope my post didn't come across that way.
However, let's not forget the impact of Coors Field on Arenado's numbers. Now, he's still very good away from home but the difference in his home and away OPS is enormous (1.077 vs. .861). Bryant would easily put up comparable numbers (if not better) to Arenado if he played half his games in Colorado, especially for someone who hits as many fly balls as Bryant. Bryant has an .877 OPS overall, including .934 away from Wrigley.
A fan voting for either player is completely justifiable. Like it or not, Arenado's numbers are strongly skewed by playing at Coors. If he didn't play at Coors his counting stats could easily by less than KB's as well.
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Brooks Robinson made 15 straight All Star games and never had an OPS above Arenado's road OPS this year. I use him as an example, because Arenado is that level defensively. If he was a .250 hitter, I think he would still be the clear choice at 3rd.
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I know I never said Bryant should be over Arrenado.
Bryant should be as an outfielder.
Ballots are probably printed before the season. Players are placed at the position they'll probably play the most. This isn't Rotisserie baseball.
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Ballots are probably printed before the season. Players are placed at the position they'll probably play the most. This isn't Rotisserie baseball.
They stopped printing ballots. MLB could, and probably should, come up with a system of determining how a player can qualify for a position. I've never voted online; I assumed once they ditched the punch cards they made this change already.
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The reason I didn't vote for Bryant is that well, Arenado is better. A lot better. In every way. There is no one I would vote for over Arenado. In my opinion he is All Star 1A this year. I would vote for him over every other player at this point. There is one reason to vote for Bryant over Arenado. That reason, is that you are a Cub fan and you want your guy in the game. Which is fine. It is the All Star game.
Just throwing it out there but Bryant leads the NL with a 3.9 fWAR. Arenado is at 3.5.
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Just throwing it out there but Bryant leads the NL with a 3.9 fWAR. Arenado is at 3.5.
Their overall numbers are very similar and Bryant doesn't have the luxury of hitting at Coors. Arenado is the better 3B defensively but Bryant is also good at 3rd and can play the OF and 1B.
Can't go wrong with either player but I'll take KB.
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Their overall numbers are very similar and Bryant doesn't have the luxury of hitting at Coors. Arenado is the better 3B defensively but Bryant is also good at 3rd and can play the OF and 1B.
Can't go wrong with either player but I'll take KB.
I understand why you would say that, but if you dig into the numbers a little bit, you will find similar things with Bryant's numbers. For instance, while yes, Arenado plays in Colorado, Bryant has done much of his damage against the completely helpless pitching staff of the Cincinnati Reds. The Reds have the worst ERA in the league (yes worse than the Rockies, and by a significant margin), they have allowed the most HR (averaging almost 2 per game!), and have the worst WHIP. Bryant has over 20% of his doubles against the Reds, 33% of his HRs, and over 30% or his RBI against the Reds. All that production in 12% of his games. They are great games, they happened. But that seems similar to tearing it up in Colorado. Does that discount his numbers? No of course not, but that is quite a bit of production against a really terrible pitching staff.
As for Bryant playing multiple positions, well, there is a reason Arenado doesn't spend time in the OF or at 1st. 3rd is a much more demanding defensively and more important than LF or 1B. Bryant is not in the same category as Arenado defensively.
Bryant absolutely deserves to be an All Star. But Arenado is one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. In my opinion, Bryant is not at that level.
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I understand why you would say that, but if you dig into the numbers a little bit, you will find similar things with Bryant's numbers. For instance, while yes, Arenado plays in Colorado, Bryant has done much of his damage against the completely helpless pitching staff of the Cincinnati Reds. The Reds have the worst ERA in the league (yes worse than the Rockies, and by a significant margin), they have allowed the most HR (averaging almost 2 per game!), and have the worst WHIP. Bryant has over 20% of his doubles against the Reds, 33% of his HRs, and over 30% or his RBI against the Reds. All that production in 12% of his games. They are great games, they happened. But that seems similar to tearing it up in Colorado. Does that discount his numbers? No of course not, but that is quite a bit of production against a really terrible pitching staff.
As for Bryant playing multiple positions, well, there is a reason Arenado doesn't spend time in the OF or at 1st. 3rd is a much more demanding defensively and more important than LF or 1B. Bryant is not in the same category as Arenado defensively.
Bryant absolutely deserves to be an All Star. But Arenado is one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. In my opinion, Bryant is not at that level.
We can agree to disagree, and of course part of me choosing Bryant is I am Cubs fan. And yes, playing half of your games at Coors is a much bigger factor than being really productive against a poor team, in my opinion.
And while Arenado is better defensively at 3B you are really discounting the value of Bryant's versatility. It is huge. My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner. Both excellent players and right now Bryant does have the slight lead in WAR. I'm sure we can both cherry pick stats to support each view.
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My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner.
Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?
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Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?
Admittedly, the first I had heard of this metric was 10 minutes ago, but FanGraphs uses something called "Ultimate Base Running," (which they list as BsR), accounting for the value a player adds to a team through base running. Bryant is actually 17th in all of MLB; Arrenado is 115th.
Arrenado
2015 -.9
2016 -1
Bryant
2015 7.5
2016 3.0
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Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?
See above post. Bryant is widely considered an excellent base runner and I knew there are metrics on it, I just didn't bother to look it up. Appreciate the snotty question, though.
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See above post. Bryant is widely considered an excellent base runner and I knew there are metrics on it, I just didn't bother to look it up. Appreciate the snotty question, though.
Thanks for basically confirming your opinion was based on nothing! Learning of a statistic after the fact does not mean your point was well informed at all.
It seems like you knew nothing of Arenado and just were throwing crap against the wall. Well, nice shot.
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Thanks for basically confirming your opinion was based on nothing! Learning of a statistic after the fact does not mean your point was well informed at all.
It seems like you knew nothing of Arenado and just were throwing crap against the wall. Well, nice shot.
Seriously? Did you read my post? My opinion was not based on nothing and it was not throwing crap against the wall. I did not know the name of the metric. That's quite different than not knowing if such a metric actually exists.
I have read multiple accounts of the value Bryant adds on the bases. Plus, you know, watching most Cubs games it is pretty clear the value he adds on the base paths. I would not have brought it up otherwise.
While I haven't watched a ton of Rockies games I am very familiar with Arenado and know that his speed and baserunning are not considered an asset.
Would you like to continue being a condescending turd or just accept you were wrong about that aspect of their games?
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Seriously? Did you read my post? My opinion was not based on nothing and it was not throwing crap against the wall. I did not know the name of the metric. That's quite different than not knowing if such a metric actually exists.
I have read multiple accounts of the value Bryant adds on the bases. Plus, you know, watching most Cubs games it is pretty clear the value he adds on the base paths. I would not have brought it up otherwise.
While I haven't watched a ton of Rockies games I am very familiar with Arenado and know that his speed and baserunning are not considered an asset.
Would you like to continue being a condescending turd or just accept you were wrong about that aspect of their games?
Well, you didn't know the name of the metric nor did you know where the players stood. Seems like throwing crap against the wall to me. Yeah, you knew Bryant was good, but you were completely speculating on Arenado.
Also I wasn't wrong on anything. I didn't comment on their base running skills.
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Well, you didn't know the name of the metric nor did you know where the players stood. Seems like throwing crap against the wall to me. Yeah, you knew Bryant was good, but you were completely speculating on Arenado.
Also I wasn't wrong on anything. I didn't comment on their base running skills.
I'm sorry if knowing the metric exists but not knowing it's specific name takes away credibility. I wouldn't have even mentioned baserunning if I didn't know the value Bryant provided. I also knew Arenado didn't provide surplus value on the bases. It wasn't speculation - it was being familiar with the player. No, I didn't know the exact difference between the two so if that is "throwing crap against the wall" so be it. I disagree, and that is what I felt you were wrong about.
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No one asked but I'm going to inject myself into this debate.
VBMG's initial comment was "My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner." The comment is presumed to have been based on the fact that Bryant is known to be a very good base runner. At the same time, it appears likely that VBMG was not actually aware of Arenado's base-running abilities but was making a safe assumption that Bryant's were better. It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.
Final verdict: It was an educated crap-toss.
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No one asked but I'm going to inject myself into this debate.
VBMG's initial comment was "My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner." The comment is presumed to have been based on the fact that Bryant is known to be a very good base runner. At the same time, it appears likely that VBMG was not actually aware of Arenado's base-running abilities but was making a safe assumption that Bryant's were better. It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.
Final verdict: It was an educated crap-toss.
Well maybe the verbiage I used should have been different.
I think it was more than an educated crap-toss but no reason to continue debating the semantics.
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It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.
It would be like that if Bryant was regarded as the best baserunner in the game (like Chapman is regarded as having the best fastball).
He's not.
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And while Arenado is better defensively at 3B you are really discounting the value of Bryant's versatility. It is huge.
I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.
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I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.
I agree. KB's versatility adds nothing to his value. It simply allows Maddon to keep Bryant on the field when he wants to give other guys some playing time. Putting Bryant in LF so Tommy La Stella can get some innings at 3B does not make Bryant a more valuable player.
Baez is a utility player - Bryant is a 3rd baseman.
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MLB just spanked Boston on international signings as they were acting on the wrong side of a grey area. 5 prospects they signed have been declared free agents, while keeping the money Boston gave them. Boston has been denied the right to pursue any international free agents this July 2 signing period.
Pretty strong punishment by MLB.
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Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today. This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035. That is just insane.
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Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today. This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035. That is just insane.
That's some pension.
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I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.
Bryant's defense is not "meh", however.
I agree. KB's versatility adds nothing to his value. It simply allows Maddon to keep Bryant on the field when he wants to give other guys some playing time. Putting Bryant in LF so Tommy La Stella can get some innings at 3B does not make Bryant a more valuable player.
Baez is a utility player - Bryant is a 3rd baseman.
KB's versatility adds nothing to his value? That's ridiculous.
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Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today. This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035. That is just insane.
I read somewhere that the Mets owners loved to defer contracts because of the rates-of-return they were getting with Bernie Madoff. Oops.
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KB's versatility adds nothing to his value? That's ridiculous.
What is the value? He's obviously the best 3B on the Cubs. His "versatility" means putting an inferior player at the position.
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What is the value? He's obviously the best 3B on the Cubs. His "versatility" means putting an inferior player at the position.
The Cubs have used 13 different players in LF this season, including 3 pitchers. Their star rookie catcher has started 4 games out there. Maddon moves guys around because he likes to push them out of their comfort zones. If Bryant played for basically any other manager, he'd be solely a 3B. He played 159 games in the minors, all of them at third. If Arenado played for Maddon, he'd likely see some time at first or even in the OF.
Bryant's "versatility" is primarily a product of Maddon's coaching style. Does it add to his value? Maybe but not necessarily. His primary value is, was, and always will be his bat.
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MLB just spanked Boston on international signings as they were acting on the wrong side of a grey area. 5 prospects they signed have been declared free agents, while keeping the money Boston gave them. Boston has been denied the right to pursue any international free agents this July 2 signing period.
Pretty strong punishment by MLB.
Yet still waiting on the MLB to address that Cardinals issue.
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Bryant's "versatility" is primarily a product of Maddon's coaching style. Does it add to his value? Maybe but not necessarily. His primary value is, was, and always will be his bat.
Yup.
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The Cubs have used 13 different players in LF this season, including 3 pitchers. Their star rookie catcher has started 4 games out there. Maddon moves guys around because he likes to push them out of their comfort zones. If Bryant played for basically any other manager, he'd be solely a 3B. He played 159 games in the minors, all of them at third. If Arenado played for Maddon, he'd likely see some time at first or even in the OF.
Bryant's "versatility" is primarily a product of Maddon's coaching style. Does it add to his value? Maybe but not necessarily. His primary value is, was, and always will be his bat.
Maddon never once played Gold Glover Evan Longoria in the OF.
By the numbers, Bryant is pretty "meh" at 3rd. He has accounted for 1 DRS there, and his fielding percentage is 13% points below the average for the position.
Arenado on the other hand, has accounted for 12 DRS and has a fielding % 38 points above average. Any one that would put that guy in the defensive wasteland of LF, yikes.
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Yet still waiting on the MLB to address that Cardinals issue.
Well, isn't the guy that acted in the Cards/Astros situation in jail? Completely separate issues obviously. I'm glad MLB hammered Boston here. They intentionally tried to deceive the league with their practices, it is good to see them held accountable.
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What is the value? He's obviously the best 3B on the Cubs. His "versatility" means putting an inferior player at the position.
Not when you're putting Baez at 3rd. In the case of LaStella I agree with you.
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By the numbers, Bryant is pretty "meh" at 3rd. He has accounted for 1 DRS there, and his fielding percentage is 13% points below the average for the position.
Arenado on the other hand, has accounted for 12 DRS and has a fielding % 38 points above average. Any one that would put that guy in the defensive wasteland of LF, yikes.
"Meh" at third, less than "meh" in the outfield. Schwarber played multiple positions, too. The fact that he was lousy at multiple positions didn't make him "versatile" - it made him a bat looking for a hiding place on defense. Zobrist is versatile. Schwarber is not. Bryant "meh".
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Not when you're putting Baez at 3rd. In the case of LaStella I agree with you.
Baez is superior to Bryant? Not in my world.
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I think the Cubs best lineup is when Bryant is in Left and Baez is at 3B with the usual suspects in their normal positions.
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I think the Cubs best lineup is when Bryant is in Left and Baez is at 3B with the usual suspects in their normal positions.
I agree about Baez being in the lineup, but I think the best lineup is with Baez at 2B and Zobrist in right.
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Baez is superior to Bryant? Not in my world.
As a player? No.
Defensively, yes.
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Well, isn't the guy that acted in the Cards/Astros situation in jail? Completely separate issues obviously. I'm glad MLB hammered Boston here. They intentionally tried to deceive the league with their practices, it is good to see them held accountable.
The Red Sox wanted to pay kids more money, using a vauge MLB language, let's drop the hammer on them.
The Cardinals have an executive that pleads guilty of corporate espionage, let's wait til all the facts are out.
They are a punishment issue together.
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Just saw (on replay) the collision in left center field yesterday at Wrigley. I know many loves the whole "mad scientist" approach that Joe Maddon brings, but the Cubs came very close to losing their second great young hitter to injury while he was playing out of position. Poor defense isn't the only risk you take trying to be smarter than everyone else.
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The Red Sox wanted to pay kids more money, using a vauge MLB language, let's drop the hammer on them.
I'm not defending the Cards or their lack of punishment, but that is a pretty disingenuous representation of what Boston did. They were in no way trying to help out under privileged kids or anything like that. They were skirting the rules by paying dirty trainers.
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Maddon never once played Gold Glover Evan Longoria in the OF.
By the numbers, Bryant is pretty "meh" at 3rd. He has accounted for 1 DRS there, and his fielding percentage is 13% points below the average for the position.
Arenado on the other hand, has accounted for 12 DRS and has a fielding % 38 points above average. Any one that would put that guy in the defensive wasteland of LF, yikes.
KB's fielding % is actually 1.3% points below the average for 3B and Arenado is 3.7% above. Percentages can be tricky ;)
Regardless, Arenado is a better defensive player than Bryant. Offensively, they're pretty even.
Bryant: .279/.373/.575, OPS of .947, oWAR of 3.4
Arenado: .290/.364/.574, OPS of .938 and oWAR of 2.4
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Just saw (on replay) the collision in left center field yesterday at Wrigley. I know many loves the whole "mad scientist" approach that Joe Maddon brings, but the Cubs came very close to losing their second great young hitter to injury while he was playing out of position. Poor defense isn't the only risk you take trying to be smarter than everyone else.
I've often heard that Bryant will eventually be the Cubs' primary LF. If that's the case, they might be better off putting him out there and letting Baez, LaStella and Candelario play 3B and be done with it.
If Soler can get healthy, I doubt he'll still be with the team a month from now.
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Braun snubbed...whatever, I'll take the 4th in NL hitting and top 10 in NL OPS over this AS bull.
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Braun snubbed...whatever, I'll take the 4th in NL hitting and top 10 in NL OPS over this AS bull.
He's a liar and a cheater. The players and coaches have spoken. They don't want him.
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Cubs entire infield to start the all-star game. Only the 63 cardinals have accomplished this feat.
Fowler, Lester and Arrieta also made it, so 7 players in total. Arrieta could also start.
Also on Monday they became the first team this season to have all nine starters under 26.
The biggest mistake in baseball history will be the Red Sox letting Theo go. Number 2 will be the Red Soxs trading Babe Ruth.
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Yeah and the Giants and Rangers should have 15 each.
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Cubs entire infield to start the all-star game. Only the 63 cardinals have accomplished this feat
The feat of winning a popularity contest? Russell making the team is a travashamockery
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The feat of winning a popularity contest? Russell making the team is a travashamockery
Russell is a joke, but you can't argue that any of the others don't deserve to be there in some capacity.
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Russell is a joke, but you can't argue that any of the others don't deserve to be there in some capacity.
Let's not get carried away. Fowler got off to a great start but he hit .207 in June and hasn't played since June 18. You could make a strong case that Polanco or Braun should be there ahead of him.
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Russell is a joke, but you can't argue that any of the others don't deserve to be there in some capacity.
Seager should be starting and Villar should be also be there. Segura, Crawford and Cozart could also make a case.
And, can't we find a place for Omar Infante?
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Let's not get carried away. Fowler got off to a great start but he hit .207 in June and hasn't played since June 18. You could make a strong case that Polanco or Braun should be there ahead of him.
There are a lot more than those two who should be ahead of Fowler.
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There are a lot more than those two who should be ahead of Fowler.
No doubt. I just pulled the first two "snubs" that I could think of.
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Cubs entire infield to start the all-star game. Only the 63 cardinals have accomplished this feat.
Fowler, Lester and Arrieta also made it, so 7 players in total. Arrieta could also start.
Also on Monday they became the first team this season to have all nine starters under 26.
The biggest mistake in baseball history will be the Red Sox letting Theo go. Number 2 will be the Red Soxs trading Babe Ruth.
I'll at least think about agreeing with this when Theo wins his fourth World Series with the Cubs and goes on to be recognized as the best executive in baseball history.
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Let's not get carried away. Fowler got off to a great start but he hit .207 in June and hasn't played since June 18. You could make a strong case that Polanco or Braun should be there ahead of him.
Who cares if he struggled in June? In the NL he is only behind Ozuna, Harper, and Polanco in WAR. He is deserving overall.
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Who cares if he struggled in June? In the NL he is only behind Ozuna, Harper, and Polanco in WAR. He is deserving overall.
Looking closer, he's actually struggled since mid-May.
April 4-May 11 (31 G): .345/.471/.573, 0 errors in 64 chances
May 11-June 18 (33 G): .242/.329/.406, 3 errors in 56 chances
Also, he's tied with Ozuna for 5th in terms of WAR and trails Marte, Yelich, Braun and Carlos Gonzalez (Marte, Yelich and Braun didn't make the AS team). A hot 5 weeks doesn't make one an All-Star.
Look, I'm a Cub fan. I was thrilled when they brought back Fowler, I think he's been excellent this season and he's one of my favorite players on the team. That said, I can admit that there are several other outfielders who were more deserving of an All-Star spot.
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Looking closer, he's actually struggled since mid-May.
April 4-May 11 (31 G): .345/.471/.573, 0 errors in 64 chances
May 11-June 18 (33 G): .242/.329/.406, 3 errors in 56 chances
Also, he's tied with Ozuna for 5th in terms of WAR and trails Marte, Yelich, Braun and Carlos Gonzalez (Marte, Yelich and Braun didn't make the AS team). A hot 5 weeks doesn't make one an All-Star.
Look, I'm a Cub fan. I was thrilled when they brought back Fowler, I think he's been excellent this season and he's one of my favorite players on the team. That said, I can admit that there are several other outfielders who were more deserving of an All-Star spot.
We're looking at different resources for WAR then as each of those players you mentioned are below Fowler.
You can certainly cherry pick numbers but his first 31 games count as much as his next 33. I'm also not saying any of those other players aren't deserving.
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I'll at least think about agreeing with this when Theo wins his fourth World Series with the Cubs and goes on to be recognized as the best executive in baseball history.
He already is one of the best executives in history now.
When he wins with the Cubs, baseball will rename the executive of the year award to the Theo Epstein award.
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Who cares if he struggled in June? In the NL he is only behind Ozuna, Harper, and Polanco in WAR. He is deserving overall.
Really? I know WAR is slippery and varies a bit, but according to ESPN he is 68th in MLB in WAR, and there are certainly more than those 3 ahead of him in terms of NL OFers, among them Christian Yelich, Ryan Braun, and Cargo.
By that logic, though, Adam Eaton, 18th overall, was quite the snub. Behind only Trout, Betts, Bradley and Springer among OFers.
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He already is one of the best executives in history now.
Based on what? 2 WS? One of which was with a team he inherited? Where would you put Brian Sabean? His resume is better than Theo's right now.
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He already is one of the best executives in history now.
When he wins with the Cubs, baseball will rename the executive of the year award to the Theo Epstein award.
(http://cdn4.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Charlie-and-the-Chocolate-Factory-Eye-Roll.gif)
Theo has somehow overcome the incredible hardships that come with running a big-market team given unlimited payroll and resources by their billionaire owners.
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I'm not going to crown his ass, but Theo won in Boston, and is winning in Chicago, not because he spent unlimited resources. That's what the Dodgers and Yankees have been doing with little success.
He was able to draft and develop his own guys, and then supplement their weaknesses with free agents. Granted that is much easier to do in places like Boston and Chicago than it is in places like Milwaukee. But it's not by any stretch of the word easy.
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I'm not going to crown his ass, but Theo won in Boston, and is winning in Chicago, not because he spent unlimited resources. That's what the Dodgers and Yankees have been doing with little success.
He was able to draft and develop his own guys, and then supplement their weaknesses with free agents. Granted that is much easier to do in places like Boston and Chicago than it is in places like Milwaukee. But it's not by any stretch of the word easy.
He also broke the curse in Boston with a team built around a bunch of PED users (Manny, Damon, Ortiz, Arroyo, etc). They obviously weren't the only team in that era built that way but it's still part of his legacy.
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I'm not going to crown his ass, but Theo won in Boston, and is winning in Chicago, not because he spent unlimited resources. That's what the Dodgers and Yankees have been doing with little success.
And by "little" success, you mean:
Dodgers ... playoffs 6 of last 10 seasons
Yankees ... playoffs 7 of last 10 seasons
Theo ... playoffs 4 of 10 last 10 seasons.
Look, I'm not arguing that Theo isn't a good GM. But let's not get carried away here. He's had tremendous resources available to him. His Red Sox teams were always top 5 in terms of payroll, and usually second behind the Yankees.
He was able to draft and develop his own guys, and then supplement their weaknesses with free agents.
Very few of his key players in Boston were guys who were drafted and developed under him. Not Manny. Not Pedro. Not Ortiz. Not Schilling. Not Damon. Not Bellhorn. Not Lowell. Not Varitek. Not Foulke. Not Arroyo. Not Beckett. And so on.
He has done a terrific job of building up the Cubs system, but it helps to a) to be able to pick in the top 10 nearly every year and b) have an ownership that is willing to allow you to tank on the major league level while investing heavily in the international market and developmental system. Not many owners have the patience to do that, or the luxury of knowing their fans will watch on TV and fill up the ballpark regardless of the quality of on-field product.
Again, none of this is to say he's not done very well. But he's been given substantial advantages very few of his peers have. It's silly not to recognize that.
But it's not by any stretch of the word easy.
Who used that word?
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I'm not going to crown his ass, but Theo won in Boston, and is winning in Chicago, not because he spent unlimited resources. That's what the Dodgers and Yankees have been doing with little success.
He was able to draft and develop his own guys, and then supplement their weaknesses with free agents. Granted that is much easier to do in places like Boston and Chicago than it is in places like Milwaukee. But it's not by any stretch of the word easy.
I agree, generally. He has done way, way more than just buy players.
But there is a big difference between Boston/Chicago resources when you do need to spend - whether it is a bad move like Heyward or a good one for Lester. In Chicago, you can make a mistake and continue forward. In other places, a big $$$ mistake will sink you. The Pittsburghs and KCs of the world are unable to supplement their teams like the big boys do.
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Really? I know WAR is slippery and varies a bit, but according to ESPN he is 68th in MLB in WAR, and there are certainly more than those 3 ahead of him in terms of NL OFers, among them Christian Yelich, Ryan Braun, and Cargo.
By that logic, though, Adam Eaton, 18th overall, was quite the snub. Behind only Trout, Betts, Bradley and Springer among OFers.
I was using Fangraphs version.
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ESPN has a terrible WAR calculation, it shouldn't even be called WAR, as shorty as QBR.
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So now Boston is a big market team? I suppose St. Louis is a big market team too?
The fact is Boston is the 12th largest market with San Diego and Detriot larger. Anyone want to explain the advantage they have over Boston?
Regarding Milwaukee, Atlanta, St. Louis, Tampa and about 10 other markets are smaller.
Oh, and the White Soxs are a big-time major market team with a huge payroll, right? They are in the third largest market in the country. That means if they sign a $100 million player that craps out, no worries, their get another one, or maybe two. Right?
https://ondeckcircle.wordpress.com/tag/population-of-major-league-cities/
Big/small market is nothing but a whine to explain poor management and lousy owners.
Also, MLB does categorize teams but big and small market according to population and teams like St.Louis get extra draft picks because they are consider small market. Ditto Milwaukee. St. Louis knows what it is doing, the Brewers do not.
Given this one could argue it is easier to win in many small markets as a lot of team are now discovering (See KC) if you develop a farm system. The problem is a lot of teams are saddled with incompetent owners and bad management. That was the Cubs case until 2009.
Milwuakee's problem is its ownership and management, not the size of the market.
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I dont think i have ever seen "white soxs" before.
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Boston hasn't been out of the Top 5 in team payroll this century. They're the definition of a big market team
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So now Boston is a big market team? I suppose St. Louis is a big market team too?
The fact is Boston is the 12th largest market with San Diego and Detriot larger. Anyone want to explain the advantage they have over Boston?
Regarding Milwaukee, Atlanta, St. Louis, Tampa and about 10 other markets are smaller.
Oh, and the White Soxs are a big-time major market team with a huge payroll, right? They are in the third largest market in the country. That means if they sign a $100 million player that craps out, no worries, their get another one, or maybe two. Right?
https://ondeckcircle.wordpress.com/tag/population-of-major-league-cities/
Big/small market is nothing but a whine to explain poor management and lousy owners.
Also, MLB does categorize teams but big and small market according to population and teams like St.Louis get extra draft picks because they are consider small market. Ditto Milwaukee. St. Louis knows what it is doing, the Brewers do not.
Given this one could argue it is easier to win in many small markets as a lot of team are now discovering (See KC) if you develop a farm system. The problem is a lot of teams are saddled with incompetent owners and bad management. That was the Cubs case until 2009.
Milwuakee's problem is its ownership and management, not the size of the market.
Clueless and ridiculous.
You actually believe Minnesota has the advantage over NY and LA. You having finally completed the transition into Chicas. You post simply to be contrary and to argue.
Like MU82, I am done. I have had enough.
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Clueless and ridiculous.
You actually believe Minnesota has the advantage over NY and LA. You having finally completed the transition into Chicas. You post simply to be contrary and to argue.
Like MU82, I am done. I have had enough.
What's the difference between Minnesota, Milwaukee and St. Louis?
The answer is competent ownership/management in St. Louis.
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What's the difference between Minnesota, Milwaukee and St. Louis?
The answer is competent ownership/management in St. Louis.
The Brewers are far from incompetent, they went for it during their window, now they have to pay that price.
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So now Boston is a big market team? I suppose St. Louis is a big market team too?
The fact is Boston is the 12th largest market with San Diego and Detriot larger. Anyone want to explain the advantage they have over Boston?
I don't think you know what you are talking about here. Rather, I'm sure you don't. Media market isn't determined by urban population, it's determined by media market size. According to the Nielsen survey from September 2015, Boston is the 7th largest market. St. Louis is 21st. Detroit is not larger as it ranks 13th and San Diego is not larger as it ranks 28th.
You can debate what qualifies as "big market", but 7th is certainly bigger than any of the others you list, trailing only NYC, LA, Chicago, Philly, DFW, and San Fran/Oakland.
http://www.tvjobs.com/cgi-bin/markets/market2.cgi
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So now Boston is a big market team?
One of the biggest. Has been forever.
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I don't think you know what you are talking about here. Rather, I'm sure you don't. Media market isn't determined by urban population, it's determined by media market size. According to the Nielsen survey from September 2015, Boston is the 7th largest market. St. Louis is 21st. Detroit is not larger as it ranks 13th and San Diego is not larger as it ranks 28th.
You can debate what qualifies as "big market", but 7th is certainly bigger than any of the others you list, trailing only NYC, LA, Chicago, Philly, DFW, and San Fran/Oakland.
http://www.tvjobs.com/cgi-bin/markets/market2.cgi
This is not how baseball defines it. It defines it according to population. That is why teams like St. Louis and Milwaukee get supplemental draft picks, to compensate them for being a small market teams.
For instance the Cardinals drafted Y. Molina with a first round supplemental pick, given to them because they are small market.
It is argued the best way to build a farm system is brute force, lots of picks and prospects hoping some breakthrough. Baseball has given small market team an advantage that they get more draft picks than large market teams.
St. Louis understands this and has built through the draft and has won more world series than any other national league team. Milwaukee does get it and they sit home every October.
This is what makes what Theo did with the Cubs farm system even more remarkable. He does not get extra first round picks like the cardinals.
The real loser is the White Soxs. They are really a small market team that happen to be in Chicago so they are not given extra draft picks.
And building through the draft is really cheap. Baseball has a 7 years salary structure, that is why the Cubs did not call up Kris Bryant until after April 15 last year. So for the cost of one Ryan Braun 50 game suspension you can build a winner. Let the Yankees buy all the 32 year old for $150 million. Keep drafting and pay them relatively nothing for seven years.
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This is not how baseball defines it. It defines it according to population. That is why teams like St. Louis and Milwaukee get supplemental draft picks, to compensate them for being a small market teams.
For instance the Cardinals drafted Y. Molina with a first round supplemental pick, given to them because they are small market.
It is argued the best way to build a farm system is brute force, lots of picks and prospects hoping some breakthrough. Baseball has given small market team an advantage that they get more draft picks than large market teams.
St. Louis understands this and has built through the draft and has won more world series than any other national league team. Milwaukee does get it and they sit home every October.
This is what makes what Theo did with the Cubs farm system even more remarkable. He does not get extra first round picks like the cardinals.
The real loser is the White Soxs. They are really a small market team that happen to be in Chicago so they are not given extra draft picks.
And building through the draft is really cheap. Baseball has a 7 years salary structure, that is why the Cubs did not call up Kris Bryant until after April 15 last year. So for the cost of one Ryan Braun 50 game suspension you can build a winner. Let the Yankees buy all the 32 year old for $150 million. Keep drafting and pay them relatively nothing for seven years.
I wish the politics board still existed to give you the outlet you need.
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Wow...just looked at that and it's completely nonsensical. Boston dominates the northeast and is 12th? Doesn't at all take into account a team's actual reach.
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The Brewers are far from incompetent, they went for it during their window, now they have to pay that price.
Exactly. Small markets clubs will have short windows to compete and then guys get enough years to become FAs and move to the big markets where the money is. Then they have to re-tool all over again.
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I wish the politics board still existed to give you the outlet you need.
So your locked into your inaccurate view of how baseball is structured and unwilling to change.
Got it.
Baseball Change the rules of the last several years to make small market in large market teams on parity with each other. The size of the TV market is really not that important in determining the success of the team. That's why we watch Pittsburgh and Kansas City in the playoffs every year.
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Boston hasn't been out of the Top 5 in team payroll this century. They're the definition of a big market team
Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too. By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.
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The size of the TV market is really not that important in determining the success of the team. That's why we watch Pittsburgh and Kansas City in the playoffs every year.
Every year? Pittsburgh made it three straight years (though lost twice in the one-game playoff) after a 20 year drought. Kansas City made the playoffs the last two years after a 28 year drought.
The league may be making it more viable for smaller markets to get there, but the term "every year" doesn't apply to either of those teams. That's reserved for teams like the 1990s Braves or the recent Cardinals making it 12/16.
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Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too. By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.
Er ... White Sox payroll over the years:
2013 = #8 payroll
2012 = #11
2011 = #5
2010 = #7
2009 = #12
2008 = #5
2007 = #5
2006 = #4
It's like you're not even trying anymore.
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Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too. By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.
What are you talking about? The White Sox are often in the Top 10 and even Top 5 in terms of team payroll.
I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse or not.
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Er ... White Sox payroll over the years:
2013 = #8 payroll
2012 = #11
2011 = #5
2010 = #7
2009 = #12
2008 = #5
2007 = #5
2006 = #4
It's like you're not even trying anymore.
Such a waste, 1 playoff appearance, no series win.
So let's review. This idea that small market teams cannot compete is you just saying you're not keeping up. The rule changes in the last several years have really even things out. The reason Milwaukee rarely makes the playoffs is they are not very good, ditto the white soxs.
Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking. Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.
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Out of curiosity, what was the white Sox payroll in 2005? I don't remember it being that high. I feel like Thomas was the most expensive person on that roster and he didn't even play.
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Out of curiosity, what was the white Sox payroll in 2005? I don't remember it being that high. I feel like Thomas was the most expensive person on that roster and he didn't even play.
13th at just over $75M.
Team Payroll Average
1. New York Yankees $205,938,439
2. Boston Red Sox $121,311,945
3. New York Mets $104,770,139
4. Philadelphia Phillies $95,337,908
5. Los Angeles Angels $95,017,822
6. St. Louis Cardinals $93,319,842
7. San Francisco Giants $89,487,842
8. Chicago Cubs $87,210,933
9. Seattle Mariners $85,883,333
10. Atlanta Braves $85,148,582
11. Los Angeles Dodgers $81,029,500
12. Houston Astros $76,779,022
13. Chicago White Sox $75,228,000
14. Baltimore Orioles $74,570,539
15. Detroit Tigers $68,998,183
16. Arizona Diamondbacks $63,015,834
17. San Diego Padres $62,888,192
18. Florida Marlins $60,375,961
19. Cincinnati Reds $59,658,275
20. Minnesota Twins $56,615,000
21. Oakland Athletics $55,869,262
22. Texas Rangers $55,307,258
23. Washington Nationals $48,581,500
24. Colorado Rockies $47,789,000
25. Toronto Blue Jays $45,336,500
26. Cleveland Indians $41,830,400
27. Milwaukee Brewers $40,234,833
28. Pittsburgh Pirates $38,138,000
29. Kansas City Royals $36,881,000
30. Tampa Bay Devil Rays $29,893,567
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2005payroll (http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2005payroll)
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Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking. Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.
Wait, you? You are accusing someone of trolling? The guy that changes his point non stop just to keep an argument going? None of what you are spouting here makes any sense at all. It is a guy being intentionally oblivious to everything.
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This is not how baseball defines it. It defines it according to population. That is why teams like St. Louis and Milwaukee get supplemental draft picks, to compensate them for being a small market teams.
For instance the Cardinals drafted Y. Molina with a first round supplemental pick, given to them because they are small market.
Molina was a 4th round draft pick in 2000.
And where are you getting this "extra picks for small markets" from? AFAIK the only compensatory picks are for departing free agents and there are no extras for small market teams.
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Such a waste, 1 playoff appearance, no series win.
So let's review. This idea that small market teams cannot compete is you just saying you're not keeping up. The rule changes in the last several years have really even things out. The reason Milwaukee rarely makes the playoffs is they are not very good, ditto the white soxs.
Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking. Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.
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Molina was a 4th round draft pick in 2000.
And where are you getting this "extra picks for small markets" from? AFAIK the only compensatory picks are for departing free agents and there are no extras for small market teams.
Arguments are easier when you get to make stuff up ;D
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Wait, you? You are accusing someone of trolling? The guy that changes his point non stop just to keep an argument going? None of what you are spouting here makes any sense at all. It is a guy being intentionally oblivious to everything.
This is Smuggles' latest trick. He goes on and on, making one absurd point after another, and as soon as folks disagree with him, he accuses them of being "trolls." It's a classic case of "Pot, meet Kettle"!
It would be like me, with my lovely hairless scalp, not liking something Don King says and then accusing him of being bald!
As for the topic being discussed ...
When I think of market size, I believe a lot of it has to do with how much revenue each team brings in above and beyond what it gets from national TV contracts and other league-wide revenue sources.
The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox and several others have huge competitive advantages because they rake in far more money than other franchises do. Even if they have to pay "luxury tax," they still have that advantage. It's also why the Cubs are more of a "big-market" team than the White Sox even though they play in the same city.
It then comes down to execution. In recent years, Pittsburgh, Kansas City and others have simply done a better job of using their comparatively limited resources than the "big-market" teams have done. The Royals, Cardinals and a few others have done it so well, that it's making other, lousier small-market teams look like whiners when they complain.
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There are some teams that receive supplemental picks. I think it is based on market. There was a lot of outcry when the Cardinals did receive one. The system is like 2 years old, so the idea of.molina being taken there is absurd.
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I can only imagine how much money Attanasio is making this year with our shaved $40 million payroll. I better see some big spending in the future.
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I can only imagine how much money Attanasio is making this year with our shaved $40 million payroll. I better see some big spending in the future.
He has shown he is willing to spend money when needed.
But the very last thing to do when re-building is to spend on high priced FAs. The Brewers minor league system is now ranked in the top 5. Once a few of these guys come up, then it is time to spend on quality FAs. For now it would all be wasted money.
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Exactly. Small markets clubs will have short windows to compete and then guys get enough years to become FAs and move to the big markets where the money is. Then they have to re-tool all over again.
While I agree, I meant they went for it by trading the farm for CC.
Also, they're a solid top ten farm. Maybe top 5 by a service, but I don't think they're there yet.
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While I agree, I meant they went for it by trading the farm for CC.
Also, they're a solid top ten farm. Maybe top 5 by a service, but I don't think they're there yet.
They really sold out for Greinke as well. That trade is one of the things that really has lifted KC.
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They really sold out for Greinke as well. That trade is one of the things that really has lifted KC.
That's a good point, chuckler. It's how the small market teams have to jump in when the window opens.
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That's a good point, chuckler. It's how the small market teams have to jump in when the window opens.
Yup, KC then went for it trading their top prospect (among others) for Shields and Davis
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Yup, KC then went for it trading their top prospect (among others) for Shields and Davis
the difference is that big market teams can make mistakes and not be decimated. Fielder in Texas is a good example. They have the $$$$ to overcome a horrendous move like acquiring him.
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I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.
Because baseball instituted a salary scale for the first seven years of service ... Recall that is why the Cubs held back Kris Bryant last year, so they can get an extra season on the 7 years. Baseball has a luxury tax that large market teams. Also they give supplementary picks to smaller market teams. They get more draft picks each year. They also give supplemental draft picks when you lose a free agent.
Baseball has given small market teams ways to compete. That is through the draft and the salary scale. St. Louis is a good example of a team that has taken advantage of it.
On the other side, the Angels are a crappy organization with lots of money. Pu joins and Hamilton and other free agent have gotten them little.
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Nm
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There are some teams that receive supplemental picks. I think it is based on market. There was a lot of outcry when the Cardinals did receive one. The system is like 2 years old, so the idea of.molina being taken there is absurd.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/85517450/12-teams-to-receive-supplemental-2015-draft-picks-in-competitive-balance-lottery-on-wednesday/
Major League Baseball's version of the Draft lottery doesn't attract nearly as much attention as its NBA and NHL counterparts, mostly because baseball's top picks aren't determined randomly like they are in the other sports. But for 12 big league clubs, the Competitive Balance Lottery on Wednesday will provide them with a valuable extra selection in 2015.
Introduced when the current Collective Bargaining Agreement came into play in December 2011, the Competitive Balance Lottery gives teams who have either one of the 10 smallest markets or 10 smallest revenue pools one of six additional choices after each of the first and second rounds. Additionally, any other clubs that are eligible to receive revenue-sharing funds are eligible for the supplemental second-round selections.
This year, the Athletics, Brewers, Cardinals, D-backs, Indians, Marlins, Orioles, Padres, Pirates, Rays, Reds, Rockies and Royals have a shot at the supplemental first-round picks. Whichever teams from that group don't get one of those will be eligible for the supplemental second-rounders, as will the Mariners and Twins. The lottery will be held Wednesday at 2 p.m. ET, at the Commissioner's Office in New York.
The extra selections take on added importance under the revised Draft rules, which assign bonus pools for each club to cover the first 10 rounds and impose the loss of future draft picks if the allotments are exceeded by more than 5 percent. In 2013, the six lottery picks after the first round added an average of $1,484,500 to their teams' pools, while those after the second round augmented their clubs by an average of $790,350.
The Tigers and Marlins made the first-ever Draft pick trade in July 2012. Detroit acquired Omar Infante and Anibal Sanchez from Miami in exchange for prospects Rob Brantly, Brian Flynn and Jacob Turner. Additionally, the Marlins swapped their Lottery choice after the first round (which became Knebel) for the Tigers' after the second.
There have been three other deals involving Draft selections. Also in July 2012, the Pirates traded Gorkys Hernandez and a supplemental first-rounder to the Marlins for Gaby Sanchez and Minor Leaguer Kyle Kaminska.
In July 2013, the Orioles sent prospects Josh Hader and L.J. Hoes and a supplemental first-rounder to the Astros for Bud Norris and an international bonus slot. Miami was involved in a third draft-pick trade this June, when it gave up a supplemental first-rounder to Pittsburgh for Bryan Morris.
The Royals are the only team to win Competitive Balance choices after the first round in each of the first two lotteries. They were awarded the top pick (No. 34) in 2013, which they used on left-hander Sean Manaea, who currently ranks 94th on MLBPipeline.com's Top 100 Prospects list. Kansas City also received the No. 40 selection in 2014 and tabbed catcher Chase Vallot.
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The New Draft Pick Compensation System
By Ben Nicholson-Smith | July 17, 2012 at 3:46pm CDT
For example, if the Brewers trade Greinke, his new team won’t be eligible for draft pick compensation. If the Brewers hold onto Greinke and make him a qualifying offer after the season only to see him sign elsewhere, Milwaukee will obtain a selection between the first and second rounds of the 2013 draft. The team that signs Greinke would lose its first round selection, but that selection would no longer go to the Brewers under the sport’s new rules.
Fewer players now bring in draft picks and those that do translate into one selection, rather than two. The changes will lead to to a drop in compensatory draft picks and an entirely new trade deadline dynamic.
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I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.
But it no longer translates into wins anymore because of the changes in the last few years.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/relationship-between-spending-winning-remains-low/
The graph below shows the relationship between the combined team payrolls from 2013 to 2015 and combined wins during those seasons.
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WINS AND PAYROLL- 2013-2015
(http://cdn.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/RELATIONSHIP-BETWEEN-WINS-AND-PAYROLL-2013-2015-e1440181296487.png)
As we can see by the fit line, the relationship is not great, but at .36, r is higher than the seasonal data, where the average yearly correlation coefficient was roughly one-tenth lower. The payroll in each individual season might not matter much, but cumulative spending does have some relationship to winning, even it is not a great one. With younger, cheaper players getting better in relation to their older, more expensive brethren over the last decade, it makes sense that money would have less impact on winning and that has been borne out over the last several seasons, including this year. While financial balance between franchises is not present off the field, and continued spending might lead to wins, payrolls in 2015 have not translated to wins, just as it has been for the last several seasons.
This study says the luxury and competitive balance taxes started in 2093 has worked and brought more balance into the game.
https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse140/13wi/projects/mirae-report.pdf
To be clear the lecturing competitive balance taxes means the big teams write checks for the small teams. So not only just walk to get extra draft picks as shown above, the big teams will pay for them via the lot luxury and competitive balance taxes started in 2003.
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the difference is that big market teams can make mistakes and not be decimated. Fielder in Texas is a good example. They have the $$$$ to overcome a horrendous move like acquiring him.
Actually they don't anymore. They pay taxes and give away draft picks. This is a big deal.
See the Angels, when they signed pujois and Hamilton they were supposed to be a super team. They both underperformed and the organization is feeling it.
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They really sold out for Greinke as well. That trade is one of the things that really has lifted KC.
I meant Greinke, good call
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Actually they don't anymore. They pay taxes and give away draft picks. This is a big deal.
See the Angels, when they signed pujois and Hamilton they were supposed to be a super team. They both underperformed and the organization is feeling it.
Hamilton was on the Angels for two seasons, they won the West one year. ..
Angels have bigger problems than Pujols, no one to pitch the ball.
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Actually they don't anymore. They pay taxes and give away draft picks. This is a big deal.
See the Angels, when they signed pujois and Hamilton they were supposed to be a super team. They both underperformed and the organization is feeling it.
Angels 2015 revenue - $312 million (7th in MLB)
Angels 2015 attendance - 3.01 million (5th)
Angels 2015 pct. capacity - 82 percent (7th)
Angels 2015 wins 85 (12th)
Oh, the suffering.
The Angels were never supposed to be a "super" team after signing Pujols and Hamilton. At the start of the 2013 season, their first together, the Angels were a 17-2 favorite to win the World Series, tied for third with the Dodgers and Nationals, and behind the Tigers and Blue Jays. At the start if the 2014 season, they were the 11th favorite, at 20-1.
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If I'm the Cubs, I'm strongly thinking of moving Arrieta this offseason.
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If I'm the Cubs, I'm strongly thinking of moving Arrieta this offseason.
He's been noticibly off. Real, real loose. I dunno what's going on.
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He's been noticibly off. Real, real loose. I dunno what's going on.
His regression has started. That being said, he'll still regress to a very good pitcher, but he wasn't going to sustain the ridiculous level he was at.
At 31, going back to arbitration, seeking a $20-$25 mil per year long term, I'd sell now.
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His regression has started. That being said, he'll still regress to a very good pitcher, but he wasn't going to sustain the ridiculous level he was at.
At 31, going back to arbitration, seeking a $20-$25 mil per year long term, I'd sell now.
Well, if you're Theo, you can't really sell now, can you? Not unless you have another starting pitcher who you think is at least as good as you think Arrieta will be the rest of the way. Because you have to believe this is a World Series team if you are Theo. Thinking less won't cut it, not this season.
Tip of the cap to Theo, who was very smart not to sign Arrieta to a long-term deal before this season. He knew that in the grand scheme of things, Arrieta hadn't proven much at all.
Arrieta still has 3 months to earn that big contract. Right now, he's not awful. Just pitching more like a No. 3 or No. 4 starter. Which is what the Orioles were optimistic he'd be 4-5 years ago and the Cubs were optimistic he'd be as recently as 2014.
A big "we'll see."
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He's been noticibly off. Real, real loose. I dunno what's going on.
He had to get off the juice for awhile because he has a PED test coming up.
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I think the only way the Cubs can consider trading Arrieta this offseason is if the Cubs win the World Series this year. And in order to win the Series this year (and win the division first and foremost) is for Arrieta to start pitching like a #1 again.
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He had to get off the juice for awhile because he has a PED test coming up.
Says the guy championing Ryan Braun.
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He had to get off the juice for awhile because he has a PED test coming up.
You really don't get PEDs do you?
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He had to get off the juice for awhile because he has a PED test coming up.
You might want to read up on PEDs.
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Arietta is done. His lab probably got busted.
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Arietta is done. His lab probably got busted.
You really are a piece if work. Dude is a health nut, and this is coming from a Sox fan.
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You really are a piece if work. Dude is a health nut, and this is coming from a Sox fan.
Not saying Arrieta has ever ingested anything stronger than carrot juice, but the fact that a guy's a health nuts or a workout warriors is meaningless in the "does he or doesn't he" discussion.
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Not saying Arrieta has ever ingested anything stronger than carrot juice, but the fact that a guy's a health nuts or a workout warriors is meaningless in the "does he or doesn't he" discussion.
Exactly.
I have no idea if Arrieta juices, but "Hey, I'm a workout warrior" was precisely what Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and many other infamous roiders used to say.
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Cubs have problems. Since June 4th, they have the fourth worst record in MLB at 13-20. Digging deeper, 8 of those 13 wins were courtesy of Cincy, Atl, Philly. In July, they have zero quality starts, opponents are hitting a ridiculous .293 against.
They miss Fowler immensely, he's the key to their lineup. I'm not shocked at all that Lester and Arrieta are struggling, it was just a matter of when. Can't see the Cubs missing the playoffs, but I'd be nervous about the Pirates and Cards.
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The talk of Arrieta juicing is idiotic.
As of a couple of weeks ago I had zero concern about the Cubs winning the division. That is no longer the case. Just a brutal stretch where they are finding ways to lose games consistently.
The starting pitching was bound for some regression but I'm surprised at just how bad it has been recently.
Fowler is certainly a loss but in no way does that excuse a 5-15 stretch. They are just playing awful baseball right now.
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Pirates are going to be really interesting as they get Cole & Tallion back. Their schedule has some great breaks for them in the second half. After they open with the Nats, they get Mil, Phi, Sea, Mil, Atl, Cincy, SD. Their first 21 games in September include 6 w/Mil, 8 Cincy, 4 Philly.
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The talk of Arrieta juicing is idiotic.
As of a couple of weeks ago I had zero concern about the Cubs winning the division. That is no longer the case. Just a brutal stretch where they are finding ways to lose games consistently.
The starting pitching was bound for some regression but I'm surprised at just how bad it has been recently.
Fowler is certainly a loss but in no way does that excuse a 5-15 stretch. They are just playing awful baseball right now.
First, the talk of Arrieta juicing is human nature and a sign of the times. When a non-performer comes out of nowhere and doesn't just perform but performs like an all-time star, whispers begin. That's simply baseball. Sometimes, the "idiotic" talk turns out to be true. Weren't Braun and his apologists calling such talk idiotic a few years back? La Russa was McGwire's attack dog: "How dare you call the noble Mark McGwire a juicer?" And so on. Do I think Arrieta juices? Not really. But I didn't think Felix Heredia did, either.
As for the Cubs, it's obviously far more than Fowler's absence. He was batting .207 in June before he got hurt and hadn't been All-Star caliber since the first month of the season. Besides, even with their injuries, the Cubs have scored enough runs to win most games.
Their starting rotation, which has been among the healthiest in baseball, has been abysmal during this slump. When the Cubbies were the '27 Yankees back in April-May, their starters were borderline unhittable. And the few times they are getting decent starts these days, their bullpen has cost them.
It's a slump. Even very good teams have slumps. It will be interesting to see how the Cubs respond coming out of the break. If they start with two weeks similar to these last few weeks, they might not be in first place come Aug. 1.
Good teams respond to challenges and adversity, so we'll get to see how good these World Series-bound magazine coverboys really are.
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Pirates are going to be really interesting as they get Cole & Tallion back. Their schedule has some great breaks for them in the second half. After they open with the Nats, they get Mil, Phi, Sea, Mil, Atl, Cincy, SD. Their first 21 games in September include 6 w/Mil, 8 Cincy, 4 Philly.
And McCutch, who had a bad start, seems like his bat is waking up.
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And McCutch, who had a bad start, seems like his bat is waking up.
Pirates always struggle against Mil. I believe they could have won the division last year if they could have beaten them.
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First, the talk of Arrieta juicing is human nature and a sign of the times. When a non-performer comes out of nowhere and doesn't just perform but performs like an all-time star, whispers begin. That's simply baseball. Sometimes, the "idiotic" talk turns out to be true. Weren't Braun and his apologists calling such talk idiotic a few years back? La Russa was McGwire's attack dog: "How dare you call the noble Mark McGwire a juicer?" And so on. Do I think Arrieta juices? Not really. But I didn't think Felix Heredia did, either.
As for the Cubs, it's obviously far more than Fowler's absence. He was batting .207 in June before he got hurt and hadn't been All-Star caliber since the first month of the season. Besides, even with their injuries, the Cubs have scored enough runs to win most games.
Their starting rotation, which has been among the healthiest in baseball, has been abysmal during this slump. When the Cubbies were the '27 Yankees back in April-May, their starters were borderline unhittable. And the few times they are getting decent starts these days, their bullpen has cost them.
It's a slump. Even very good teams have slumps. It will be interesting to see how the Cubs respond coming out of the break. If they start with two weeks similar to these last few weeks, they might not be in first place come Aug. 1.
Good teams respond to challenges and adversity, so we'll get to see how good these World Series-bound magazine coverboys really are.
In regards to Arrieta, while no one could have predicted the historic stretch last year, his success certainly didn't come out of nowhere. He also had an excellent 2014 season. Coming up with Baltimore he was thought very highly of. He's always been in great condition and has always had excellent stuff. The difference came from his command, which is what he's struggling with now. It's not like he was all of a sudden throwing 3-5 mph harder, etc. That's why I personally consider PED suspicions with him both idiotic and lazy.
While the rotation wasn't going to stay historically good it has been abysmal during this rough stretch. I have to think that won't last. They've just been consistently finding ways to lose. It was big to get a win today to stop the bleeding, especially with a couple of tough series coming up after the break.
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In regards to Arrieta, while no one could have predicted the historic stretch last year, his success certainly didn't come out of nowhere. He also had an excellent 2014 season. Coming up with Baltimore he was thought very highly of. He's always been in great condition and has always had excellent stuff. The difference came from his command, which is what he's struggling with now. It's not like he was all of a sudden throwing 3-5 mph harder, etc. That's why I personally consider PED suspicions with him both idiotic and lazy.
By "out of nowhere," I meant that just about nobody except baseball junkies had heard of him before he finally stuck with with the Cubs in 2014 -- his seventh season as a pro.
He was 20–25 with a 5.46 ERA for the Orioles, who sent him to the minors three times in 2013 before finally getting sick of waiting for him and sending him to the Cubbies. He then had two minor-league stints for the Cubs in 2013.
To go from being sent to the minors five times in 2013, when he was unceremoniously dumped by the organization that drafted him six years earlier ... to being arguably the best pitcher in baseball in 2015 ... well, that's "out of nowhere" to me. You are free to think otherwise.
I already have said I doubt he's on steroids. But I also understand why some would speculate about it.
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I already have said I doubt he's on steroids. But I also understand why some would speculate about it.
Like all players that become good, it's the lazy, ESPN-driven narrative for those to speculate about.
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As for the Cubs, it's obviously far more than Fowler's absence. He was batting .207 in June before he got hurt and hadn't been All-Star caliber since the first month of the season. Besides, even with their injuries, the Cubs have scored enough runs to win most games.
Their starting rotation, which has been among the healthiest in baseball, has been abysmal during this slump. When the Cubbies were the '27 Yankees back in April-May, their starters were borderline unhittable. And the few times they are getting decent starts these days, their bullpen has cost them.
It's a slump. Even very good teams have slumps. It will be interesting to see how the Cubs respond coming out of the break. If they start with two weeks similar to these last few weeks, they might not be in first place come Aug. 1.
Good teams respond to challenges and adversity, so we'll get to see how good these World Series-bound magazine coverboys really are.
The Cubs are 28-29 since May 10. They're very fortunate that the Cardinals (29-26) and Pirates (29-28) have both hovered around .500 during that time as well. The NL Central appeared to be wrapped up 2 months ago but it's looking like it could end up being a fight down the stretch. One of those 3 teams is bound to have a hot stretch.
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Is it weird that now Arrieta doesn't want to pitch?
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Is it weird that now Arrieta doesn't want to pitch?
It's a meaningless game and he wants to rest. Something is wrong and maybe he thinks that is all it will take.
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It's a meaningless game and he wants to rest. Something is wrong and maybe he thinks that is all it will take.
Why not say that yesterday and get someone else on the team?
Great play by Rizzo to end the 1st. And a great play by Altuve to start the 2nd.
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And the Royals are apparently planning on having WS games in KC.
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It's a meaningless game and he wants to rest. Something is wrong and maybe he thinks that is all it will take.
I at least give MLB props for trying to make it meaningful with WS home field at stake. Maybe i'm guilty of comparing it to NFL and NBA all star games.
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And the Royals are apparently planning on having WS games in KC......for the third straight year
FIFY
***also was just informed our viewing is behind by 5 minutes
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Why not say that yesterday and get someone else on the team?
Great play by Rizzo to end the 1st. And a great play by Altuve to start the 2nd.
He did say it yesterday. He also said he would pitch if needed.
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Do people here like that the game decides home field? I'm not a fan, personally.
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Do people here like that the game decides home field? I'm not a fan, personally.
I'm a fan. It puts skin in the game for the players and the viewers. It is an extreme paradox that the voting is a popularity contest and the outcome actually has some meaning - clearly the voting needs to be in line with how important the game is.
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I at least give MLB props for trying to make it meaningful with WS home field at stake. Maybe i'm guilty of comparing it to NFL and NBA all star games.
Nah. I thinks that makes it even a bigger joke.
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I was at the as game in 2002 in Milwaukee when Selig called the game at 7-7. Talk about lame. At least there's something at stake. With both ws teams competing against different quality seems as good a way as any to determine best team/homefield.
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Using an exhibition game to determine home field advantage for the sport's most important series is absolutely ridiculous to begin with, then you throw in the fact that the game's starters get there via popularity contest and each team must be represented and it gets even more asinine. The whole concept is completely illogical.
Why not just give home field to the pennant-winning team that had the better spring training record? That would make as much sense.
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Using an exhibition game to determine home field advantage for the sport's most important series is absolutely ridiculous to begin with, then you throw in the fact that the game's starters get there via popularity contest and each team must be represented and it gets even more asinine. The whole concept is completely illogical.
Why not just give home field to the pennant-winning team that had the better spring training record? That would make as much sense.
The MLB All-star game didn't need this. It is the only all-star game where the participants on the field are going all out to win the game on both offense and defense, because of the nature of the sport. It is the only all-star game I watch. Giving World Series home field was a dumb over-reaction to running out of pitchers in an extra-inning game 15 years ago or so. (Frankly, a tie in an exhibition game is not the end of the world). Seems to me you should include records of the teams and the overall interleague records before the all-star game to determine World Series home field.
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Do people here like that the game decides home field? I'm not a fan, personally.
No. It was a stupid overreaction to make up for backlash to a slightly less stupid decision, and should have been undone by now. Either give it to the team with the best record or just rotate between AL/NL each year.
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No. It was a stupid overreaction to make up for backlash to a slightly less stupid decision, and should have been undone by now. Either give it to the team with the best record or just rotate between AL/NL each year.
Just rotating it between AL and NL makes even less sense, to me. A cavalier attitude toward home field in baseball makes no sense. The field the game is played on in baseball has a big impact. In football and basketball and hockey, the rules are the same regardless of where the game is played, as is the size of the playing field. In baseball, park dimensions are different, certain parks favor left handed hitters vs. right handed hitters or vice versa, and the DH or no DH rule is a fundamental change to the way a roster is set for the team on the road. You should have a good reason for who you give that extra home game to.
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The MLB All-star game didn't need this. It is the only all-star game where the participants on the field are going all out to win the game on both offense and defense, because of the nature of the sport. It is the only all-star game I watch. Giving World Series home field was a dumb over-reaction to running out of pitchers in an extra-inning game 15 years ago or so. (Frankly, a tie in an exhibition game is not the end of the world). Seems to me you should include records of the teams and the overall interleague records before the all-star game to determine World Series home field.
It took me awhile to come to that conclusion, but that is where I stand. A tie in an All-Star Game is fine. I think the issue in Milwaukee was that it was announced during the game. If everyone knows ahead of time that it is only a nine inning game, I think people would be fine with it.
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Do people here like that the game decides home field? I'm not a fan, personally.
No, but I like it better than giving it to the pennant winner with the best record (the winner in a weak division is given preferential treatment) or simply alternating.
My choice would be to give home field to the league with the winning record in inter league play. That way it would be based on games that actually count and the stronger league would get an earned edge. The NL might not like it because this will be the 13th straight year of AL dominance, but these things are cyclical and they'll be on top again someday.
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Was this the first year that the "home" team played in the park of the other league. Noticed that the American League was the "home" team in San Diego.
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So despite the fact that the game now "means something," less and less people are watching it.
http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/2016-mlb-all-star-game-ratings-and-viewership-are-out-record-lows.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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No, but I like it better than giving it to the pennant winner with the best record (the winner in a weak division is given preferential treatment) or simply alternating.
My choice would be to give home field to the league with the winning record in inter league play. That way it would be based on games that actually count and the stronger league would get an earned edge. The NL might not like it because this will be the 13th straight year of AL dominance, but these things are cyclical and they'll be on top again someday.
The interleague record would certainly be much better than the current situation.
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LOL, today Daryl Strawberry admitted he used to have sex with women between innings, he would point out a woman to the batboy and have him fetch her. He also allowed that he and Dwight Gooden might have had a threesome with a woman.
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LOL, today Daryl Strawberry admitted he used to have sex with women between innings, he would point out a woman to the batboy and have him fetch her. He also allowed that he and Dwight Gooden might have had a threesome with a woman.
What a life man. Hey, good for him.
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So despite the fact that the game now "means something," less and less people are watching it.
http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/2016-mlb-all-star-game-ratings-and-viewership-are-out-record-lows.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
That follows a twenty year trend for mlb ratings as a whole. With 162 games a year broadcast on television, there is no juice in most mlb games. Ball games are still good social events so attendance is still solid but tv ratings are not impressive.
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That follows a twenty year trend for mlb ratings as a whole. With 162 games a year broadcast on television, there is no juice in most mlb games. Ball games are still good social events so attendance is still solid but tv ratings are not impressive.
Baseball was/is my first love in sports, but I seldom watch exhibitions. On a nice 80+ degree night, I'd rather go see a minor league game.
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LOL, today Daryl Strawberry admitted he used to have sex with women between innings, he would point out a woman to the batboy and have him fetch her. He also allowed that he and Dwight Gooden might have had a threesome with a woman.
Sounds like an All-Star performance for sure, hey?
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http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/former-cardinals-scouting-director-sentenced-to-months-for-hacking-astros/article_442f4c83-0de3-5b45-9fe9-8cd3736b6827.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share
Ex-Cardinals scouting director sentenced to 46 months. Let's see what MLB does to the Cardinals now.
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Twins fired Terry Ryan today.
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Sox should hire him
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Take all the draft picks!
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http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/former-cardinals-scouting-director-sentenced-to-months-for-hacking-astros/article_442f4c83-0de3-5b45-9fe9-8cd3736b6827.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share
Ex-Cardinals scouting director sentenced to 46 months. Let's see what MLB does to the Cardinals now.
Better not be a slap on the wrist, although that wouldn't surprise me.
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Was catching up on news on Twitter, saw tweet of Sale's 8 IP, 1 H, 0 R...very next tweet in my feed, Final: Mariners 4, Sox 3.
It's so White Sox.
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Was catching up on news on Twitter, saw tweet of Sale's 8 IP, 1 H, 0 R...very next tweet in my feed, Final: Mariners 4, Sox 3.
It's so White Sox.
I don't get it. He is at 100 pitches - why make a change?
In Cleveland, Kluber goes 7 shutout innings with 85 pitches and he is pulled. Boom! 7 runs in a flash.
I understand pitch counts - it's not like Koufax throwing 200+ pitches in a start and then being brought out of the pen for 3 innings on 1 day rest - but sometimes it just gets ridiculous.
Maybe instead of trying to save their arms by pulling them when they are pitching great and under 100 pitches, the time to give them a break is when they have given up 3 or 4 runs in five innings and are at 75 pitches. In other words, give them a rest when they are throwing bad rather than when they are throwing great.
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Was catching up on news on Twitter, saw tweet of Sale's 8 IP, 1 H, 0 R...very next tweet in my feed, Final: Mariners 4, Sox 3.
It's so White Sox.
Robertson is terrible. Seems afraid to attack and throw strikes. I'd trade him. They are better off with Jones closing.
Sale was fantastic. He deserved number 15.
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I don't get it. He is at 100 pitches - why make a change?
In Cleveland, Kluber goes 7 shutout innings with 85 pitches and he is pulled. Boom! 7 runs in a flash.
I understand pitch counts - it's not like Koufax throwing 200+ pitches in a start and then being brought out of the pen for 3 innings on 1 day rest - but sometimes it just gets ridiculous.
Maybe instead of trying to save their arms by pulling them when they are pitching great and under 100 pitches, the time to give them a break is when they have given up 3 or 4 runs in five innings and are at 75 pitches. In other words, give them a rest when they are throwing bad rather than when they are throwing great.
Agree 100%
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Agree 100%
And I didn't even mention the fact that Sale had thrown 9 pitches in the previous 10 days and Kluber just 14 pitches in the previous 10 days. They were both fully rested - no reason to pull them early when they ere pitching great.
Simply a case of two managers costing their teams a win.
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And I didn't even mention the fact that Sale had thrown 9 pitches in the previous 10 days and Kluber just 14 pitches in the previous 10 days. They were both fully rested - no reason to pull them early when they ere pitching great.
Simply a case of two managers costing their teams a win.
I would say it looked like Sale was wilting a bit. He had 3 walks in the game, and 2 of them were in the 8th inning. His control was getting looser. After pounding the zone all night, he was losing his stuff a bit. I'd say Sale at 50% is still better than just about anyone else they could bring in.
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Sox fans, what do you think about selling? They don't have much urgency, as most of their assets are still under contract beyond this year. Of course, the sooner they sell the sooner they boost their farm system etc. Personally I wouldn't trade guys like Sale and Q as it is quite counter productive and you just wouldn't get the value back. Not sure this is the best time to trade someone like Frazier either. He is still a very valuable player, though he is having a sub par season.
If it were me in charge, there are 2 guys that I would really look to trade. First is David Robertson. He is a good reliever and a decent closer (last night not withstanding). He is striking out about 11 batters per 9, and there are always teams looking to add a K-potential arm to their bull pen. He is signed for 2 more years, so he isn't just a rental. The big hurdle is his salary, as he is making 25 million over the next 2 years.
Another guy I would trade is Melky. He is again, not a rental as he is signed for next season as well. He is having a really nice season, as he is hitting just under .300 (.298) and has an OPS just under .800 (.792). While he is not a great OFer, he is ok enough where he is not only available to DH. He is a switch hitter that hits well from both sides of the plate.
I think that trading either or both of these guys is where the Sox should start. Neither is a building block (as Sale, Q, Abreu and maybe Frazier) and neither is irreplaceable. The Sox could make these moves now and still not completely tank. Losing Melky would hurt, as he is playing quite well, but I think Jones could step in perfectly for Robertson, the question then becomes, can Fulmer cover that set up role (he may be even more valuable than a typical 8th inning guy as they seem to want to use him in multi-inning stints). Not saying that would propel them to anything, but it is a way to restock without completely tearing it down.
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Twins fired Terry Ryan today.
When I was a young reporter in Minnesota, I sometimes dealt with the young assistant media-relations director they had, a kid named Rob Antony.
Today, Antony is the Twins' GM.
Even though it took him 25 years, that's still a pretty impressive ascent. Good for him!
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I would say it looked like Sale was wilting a bit. He had 3 walks in the game, and 2 of them were in the 8th inning. His control was getting looser. After pounding the zone all night, he was losing his stuff a bit. I'd say Sale at 50% is still better than just about anyone else they could bring in.
We agree here Chuckler. Now if it was the same situation with Gonzalez, I could agree with Ventura's move.
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If I'm the Sox, everyone except Tim Anderson is for sale.
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I don't get it. He is at 100 pitches - why make a change?
In Cleveland, Kluber goes 7 shutout innings with 85 pitches and he is pulled. Boom! 7 runs in a flash.
I understand pitch counts - it's not like Koufax throwing 200+ pitches in a start and then being brought out of the pen for 3 innings on 1 day rest - but sometimes it just gets ridiculous.
Maybe instead of trying to save their arms by pulling them when they are pitching great and under 100 pitches, the time to give them a break is when they have given up 3 or 4 runs in five innings and are at 75 pitches. In other words, give them a rest when they are throwing bad rather than when they are throwing great.
The majors now play high school baseball, especially when it comes to pitching. Only thing missing is the aluminum bat.
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The majors now play high school baseball, especially when it comes to pitching. Only thing missing is the aluminum bat.
Ozzie Guillen is one of my heroes for letting four straight pitchers throw complete game wins in the 2005 ALCS. Every other manager in baseball would have made the knee-jerk move to the pen.
Hey ... I'm in a great mood tonight ... I'm about to brag just a teeny bit ...
A couple hours ago, I had my first career walk-off hit in softball. Line-drive, bases-loaded single to right-center to cap a 7-run rally in the bottom of the last. One of my coolest feelings as an "athlete" (with the emphasis on those quotation marks).
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Ozzie Guillen is one of my heroes for letting four straight pitchers throw complete game wins in the 2005 ALCS. Every other manager in baseball would have made the knee-jerk move to the pen.
Hey ... I'm in a great mood tonight ... I'm about to brag just a teeny bit ...
A couple hours ago, I had my first career walk-off hit in softball. Line-drive, bases-loaded single to right-center to cap a 7-run rally in the bottom of the last. One of my coolest feelings as an "athlete" (with the emphasis on those quotation marks).
Way to come through in the clutch! :D
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Ozzie Guillen is one of my heroes for letting four straight pitchers throw complete game wins in the 2005 ALCS. Every other manager in baseball would have made the knee-jerk move to the pen.
Hey ... I'm in a great mood tonight ... I'm about to brag just a teeny bit ...
A couple hours ago, I had my first career walk-off hit in softball. Line-drive, bases-loaded single to right-center to cap a 7-run rally in the bottom of the last. One of my coolest feelings as an "athlete" (with the emphasis on those quotation marks).
Good feeling. Couple years ago kept my 16" softball team in the playoffs by hitting a game tying double with 2 outs. Hit that right field ball all day long.
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Ozzie Guillen is one of my heroes for letting four straight pitchers throw complete game wins in the 2005 ALCS. Every other manager in baseball would have made the knee-jerk move to the pen.
Hey ... I'm in a great mood tonight ... I'm about to brag just a teeny bit ...
A couple hours ago, I had my first career walk-off hit in softball. Line-drive, bases-loaded single to right-center to cap a 7-run rally in the bottom of the last. One of my coolest feelings as an "athlete" (with the emphasis on those quotation marks).
Dis is watt floats yo boat? Here I thought you were gonna tell us 'bout da latest orgasmic escapades wit Mrs. LXXXII or such, hey?
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Dis is watt floats yo boat? Here I thought you were gonna tell us 'bout da latest orgasmic escapades wit Mrs. LXXXII or such, hey?
Walk-off hits are a rarity.
Why would I brag about something that happens with regularity?
I mean, I'm sure you don't need to tell us all about your escapades with Mrs. A'ina, a'ina?
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Ozzie Guillen is one of my heroes for letting four straight pitchers throw complete game wins in the 2005 ALCS. Every other manager in baseball would have made the knee-jerk move to the pen.
I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.
Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.
What were they doing different in those days?
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I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.
Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.
What were they doing different in those days?
They weren't pitching 2-3 times per week, year-round beginning at age 10?
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I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.
Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.
What were they doing different in those days?
Well, one thing they were doing differently was suffering in silence. It wasn't "manly" to skip a start with injury or to talk about your pain.
Koufax, the first pitcher you named, had to retire at age 30, his arm blown apart by the heavy workload.
Even for those who avoided serious injuries, you have named the elite of the elite here. They were physical freaks. You didn't name the hundreds (or more) who couldn't hack the workload. Why? Because they were done before they ever had a chance to be great.
There has to be a middle ground between working guys 300+ innings ... and coddling them so much that they expect to be relieved if they encounter even a little 6th-inning trouble.
The other thing that is different is relief pitching. In the "olden days," relievers were failed starters and a team only carried a few of them so they could have extra position players. Now, relievers are bred, especially closers, and the craft is so specialized. Pitchers now make up more than half the 25-man roster for most teams.
A manager would rather go with a fresh left-hander to face a good lefty hitter in the seventh inning than stick with a tired right-hander who already has thrown 98 pitches. Strategically, that does makes sense.
Most of the elite pitchers still work into the eighth inning pretty regularly. But now they are on 4 or even 5 days' rest, they are allowed to skip a start to help head off "dead arm," etc.
I laugh when people talk about supposedly unbreakable records, and they list DiMaggio's streak or some other hitting number. You want unbreakable modern (post-1900) records? Take a look at Ed Walsh's 464 innings, Cy Young's 749 career complete games, Grover Alexander's 16 shutouts and Jack Chesbro's 41 wins.
THOSE are records that will never, ever, ever, EVER be broken.
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The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.
I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.
I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.
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The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.
I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.
I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.
American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order. Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments. Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.
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90-92 used to be a good fastball for a starter. Maddux rarely touched 90. Lolich rarely touched 90. As 82 says, relievers are far superior to what they were in the old days.
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The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.
I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.
I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.
Throwing 88 takes a lot less out of an arm than throwing 95+
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Well, one thing they were doing differently was suffering in silence. It wasn't "manly" to skip a start with injury or to talk about your pain.
Koufax, the first pitcher you named, had to retire at age 30, his arm blown apart by the heavy workload.
Even for those who avoided serious injuries, you have named the elite of the elite here. They were physical freaks. You didn't name the hundreds (or more) who couldn't hack the workload. Why? Because they were done before they ever had a chance to be great.
There has to be a middle ground between working guys 300+ innings ... and coddling them so much that they expect to be relieved if they encounter even a little 6th-inning trouble.
The other thing that is different is relief pitching. In the "olden days," relievers were failed starters and a team only carried a few of them so they could have extra position players. Now, relievers are bred, especially closers, and the craft is so specialized. Pitchers now make up more than half the 25-man roster for most teams.
A manager would rather go with a fresh left-hander to face a good lefty hitter in the seventh inning than stick with a tired right-hander who already has thrown 98 pitches. Strategically, that does makes sense.
Most of the elite pitchers still work into the eighth inning pretty regularly. But now they are on 4 or even 5 days' rest, they are allowed to skip a start to help head off "dead arm," etc.
I laugh when people talk about supposedly unbreakable records, and they list DiMaggio's streak or some other hitting number. You want unbreakable modern (post-1900) records? Take a look at Ed Walsh's 464 innings, Cy Young's 749 career complete games, Grover Alexander's 16 shutouts and Jack Chesbro's 41 wins.
THOSE are records that will never, ever, ever, EVER be broken.
You make so many good points here.
As you said, Koufax - the greatest pitcher to ever play - was done at 30. Drysdale was done at 31. And so few starters back then pitched until their late 30s'.
The mound was higher as well, which was a huge difference. Pitchers had a much greater advantage over batters and lower ERAs meant SPs were in the games longer.
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American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order. Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments. Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.
Counterpoint: American League pitchers don't get to pitch to a pitcher.
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American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order. Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments. Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.
I'm not so sure that really makes the much of a difference. Outside the Arrietas, Bumgardners and Syndaguards most pitchers don't even try to hit. Lester for example, pretty much walks to first on every ground ball he hits.
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I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.
Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.
What were they doing different in those days?
I could be wrong but wasn't Koufax much like Kershaw, in that he didn't need 99 to get outs. I may be wrong here but I believe he kind of lived in the low to mid 90s range and his out pitch was the hook. (*** Complete disclaimer, never saw him pitch, just the stuff I have picked up through anecdotes. I have never heard anyone wax poetic about Sandy's fastball, it is all the curve. Guys like Feller got all the credit for their fastballs.)
It is a different time. It isn't going back. The Rangers tried a couple years back to make guys tougher by having them work more, most of those guys got hurt.
There are only a dozen or so guys that can be counted on for 200+ innings. Enjoy them now, in 15 years 150 IP may be the workhorse benchmark.
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I could be wrong but wasn't Koufax much like Kershaw, in that he didn't need 99 to get outs. I may be wrong here but I believe he kind of lived in the low to mid 90s range and his out pitch was the hook. (*** Complete disclaimer, never saw him pitch, just the stuff I have picked up through anecdotes. I have never heard anyone wax poetic about Sandy's fastball, it is all the curve. Guys like Feller got all the credit for their fastballs.)
Koufax had the best fastball in baseball at the time and unlike modern pitchers, he threw it up in the strike zone. But hitters had to sit on the fastball, anyway. His curve was probably the best of all time and was unhittable when it was on.
But because of the heavy workload - at times on 2 days rest - he often had to pitch without the curve. But he had the pitch location ability of a Greg Maddux to go along with the great fastball and curve.
Most unusual was that he was a two-pitch pitcher - something you rarely see in a starter.
Koufax was a treat to watch. He, along with Jim Palmer, had the easiest, most fluid deliveries I have ever seen.
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Cubs trade Dan Vogelbach and Paul Blackburn to Ms for Mike Montgomery and Jordan Pries
Montgomery is a very solid addition to the pen in an area of need for the Cubs. I like it.
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Cubs trade Dan Vogelbach and Paul Blackburn to Ms for Mike Montgomery and Jordan Pries
Montgomery is a very solid addition to the pen in an area of need for the Cubs. I like it.
Yeah, Vogelbach may be good but was nothing more than depth for the Cubs. Seems like a solid deal for both.
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Koufax had the best fastball in baseball at the time and unlike modern pitchers, he threw it up in the strike zone. But hitters had to sit on the fastball, anyway. His curve was probably the best of all time and was unhittable when it was on.
But because of the heavy workload - at times on 2 days rest - he often had to pitch without the curve. But he had the pitch location ability of a Greg Maddux to go along with the great fastball and curve.
Most unusual was that he was a two-pitch pitcher - something you rarely see in a starter.
Koufax was a treat to watch. He, along with Jim Palmer, had the easiest, most fluid deliveries I have ever seen.
Well, when one of the two is the best ever, you can get away with it. Apparently the fastest Koufax was ever clocked was about 93.2.
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Yeah, Vogelbach may be good but was nothing more than depth for the Cubs. Seems like a solid deal for both.
Agreed. Hope Vogelbach does well in Seattle. With Rizzo and no DH he had nowhere to play.
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Well, when one of the two is the best ever, you can get away with it. Apparently the fastest Koufax was ever clocked was about 93.2.
They had some pretty funky ways of measuring back then. Many hitters of the era said he was the hardest thrower in either league.
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I agree there were pitchers who suffered in silence and others whose careers were cut short.
Koufax had the aforementioned elbow problems. Drysdale had rotator cuff problems after 1968. But Gibson was around until 1974, after breaking in during the early 1960s. Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Juan Marichal all had full-length careers. And when you think about people like Phil Niekro, who with a knuckleball barely qualified as a pitcher, you realize that there were at the time a large number of pitchers who did hang around for a long time.
I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer games, caused by television, are a factor.
Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.
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I agree there were pitchers who suffered in silence and others whose careers were cut short.
Koufax had the aforementioned elbow problems. Drysdale had rotator cuff problems after 1968. But Gibson was around until 1974, after breaking in during the early 1960s. Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Juan Marichal all had full-length careers. And when you think about people like Phil Niekro, who with a knuckleball barely qualified as a pitcher, you realize that there were at the time a large number of pitchers who did hang around for a long time.
I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer games, caused by television, are a factor.
Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.
Yeah, when they change the rules because of you, you must have been pretty dominant.
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Agreed. Hope Vogelbach does well in Seattle. With Rizzo and no DH he had nowhere to play.
The "eventual NL DH" role is reserved for Schwarber anyway.
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Rick Hahn essentially saying the Sox are "open for business". Another disappointing, under preforming season for the Sox.
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Rick Hahn essentially saying the Sox are "open for business". Another disappointing, under preforming season for the Sox.
Which everyone outside the organization knew it would be.
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There is no doubt in my mind that you are the smartest person on the internet.
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I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer games, caused by television, are a factor.
Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.
As Chuckler said, changing the rules had a lot to do with things. 2 rules specifically: Changing the size of the strike zone greatly increased Ks and reduced walks. But the biggest was lowering the height of the mound by 5 inches. Raise the mound back to where it was when Gibby was pitching and Kershaw (among others) is in the running to beat Gibson's mark.
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There is no doubt in my mind that you are the smartest person on the internet.
They need to tear the White Sox down to nothing and start over. Otherwise they are a middle of the road team for the years to come.
Every single player should be on the block in order to get younger and more talented.
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White Sox need new ownership.
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White Sox need new ownership.
Agreed, and the sad part is I think Hahn could be a really good GM if he is given the tools and the green light. Though I did hear today that the White Sox were supposedly offered a "kings ransom" for Sale today and that was turned down.
Now, who knows what that actually means but I'm thinking everybody is up for grabs with exception of Abreu and Anderson.
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There is no doubt in my mind that you are the smartest person on the internet.
Wasn't trying to be a smart ass. The Sox seem to think they are contenders every year. Or maybe they're just saying they are.
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Brew Crew oughta dump Garza for some urinal deodorant, if dey can find a taker, ai na?
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Wasn't trying to be a smart ass. The Sox seem to think they are contenders every year. Or maybe they're just saying they are.
My thought is they go into each season believing they are contenders, if everything breaks the right way. They need to make the decision on if they can still be legit contenders while Sale and Quintana are under contract.
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Koufax had the best fastball in baseball at the time and unlike modern pitchers, he threw it up in the strike zone. But hitters had to sit on the fastball, anyway. His curve was probably the best of all time and was unhittable when it was on.
But because of the heavy workload - at times on 2 days rest - he often had to pitch without the curve. But he had the pitch location ability of a Greg Maddux to go along with the great fastball and curve.
Most unusual was that he was a two-pitch pitcher - something you rarely see in a starter.
Koufax was a treat to watch. He, along with Jim Palmer, had the easiest, most fluid deliveries I have ever seen.
Agree with virtually everything you say about Koufax. For a 6 year period (age 25-31) he was simply the best ever. One nit I would pick would be comparing his command to that of Greg Maddux. The last 5 years of his career it was close, the first 7 it wasn't. He was forced to pitch in the majors before he was ready (age 19) because of silly bonus baby rules in MLB and that's part of the reason, but the splits between his first 6 and last 6 years are staggering. For example, in 1958 he walked 105 batters in 158 innings - more than 6 per 9 innings pitched. But in 1963, he cut his base on balls in half (58) while doubling his innings (311). Remarkable.
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Agree with virtually everything you say about Koufax. For a 6 year period (age 25-31) he was simply the best ever. One nit I would pick would be comparing his command to that of Greg Maddux. The last 5 years of his career it was close, the first 7 it wasn't. He was forced to pitch in the majors before he was ready (age 19) because of silly bonus baby rules in MLB and that's part of the reason, but the splits between his first 6 and last 6 years are staggering. For example, in 1958 he walked 105 batters in 158 innings - more than 6 per 9 innings pitched. But in 1963, he cut his base on balls in half (58) while doubling his innings (311). Remarkable.
"Hitting against Koufax is like eating soup with a fork"
Deron Johnson, Cincinnati Reds
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"Hitting against Koufax is like eating soup with a fork"
Deron Johnson, Cincinnati Reds
Overpowering fastball, one of the best curveballs ever and a great competitor.
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One nit I would pick would be comparing his command to that of Greg Maddux. The last 5 years of his career it was close, the first 7 it wasn't. He was forced to pitch in the majors before he was ready (age 19) because of silly bonus baby rules in MLB and that's part of the reason, but the splits between his first 6 and last 6 years are staggering. For example, in 1958 he walked 105 batters in 158 innings - more than 6 per 9 innings pitched. But in 1963, he cut his base on balls in half (58) while doubling his innings (311). Remarkable.
You are right of course. I should have been more specific.
BTW, I just finished an excellent book on the Dodgers called The Last Innocents. It is about the Dodgers both on the field and off as they dealt with changes in the 1960s. The book centers on Koufax, Maury Wills, Wes Parker, Lou Johnson, Tommy Davis, and Jeff Torborg.
I was especially surprised with the racism that players still endured. But if you like baseball history at all, it is one of the better books around.
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My thought is they go into each season believing they are contenders, if everything breaks the right way. They need to make the decision on if they can still be legit contenders while Sale and Quintana are under contract.
Hahn has made some decent moves this season. Fraizer looked like a strong acquisition but his average is WAY down. Hahn dumped Danks. He dumped Rollins and called up Anderson. He traded for Shields who had 3 horrid starts but has a 2.52 ERA over his last 6 outings. It just hasn't all come together for the team. Ventura should probably go after this season but I doubt they'll pull the trigger on that one.
The Sox have nothing in their farm system after Fulmer. Sending Quintana to Texas could change that.
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You are right of course. I should have been more specific.
BTW, I just finished an excellent book on the Dodgers called The Last Innocents. It is about the Dodgers both on the field and off as they dealt with changes in the 1960s. The book centers on Koufax, Maury Wills, Wes Parker, Lou Johnson, Tommy Davis, and Jeff Torborg.
I was especially surprised with the racism that players still endured. But if you like baseball history at all, it is one of the better books around.
Thanks for the tip, Brand - book sounds like a great summer read.
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Sale trying to get himself traded or is he really that much of a punk?
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Sale trying to get himself traded or is he really that much of a punk?
He's been upset since they told him his 14yo BFF couldn't hang out in the locker room anymore
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White Sox are a dumpster fire. Does it really matter?
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White Sox are a dumpster fire. Does it really matter?
I'm not a Sox fan, just an observer from afar.
I would think how they handle Sale does matter, as he is the best pitcher they have had in a long time. If they keep him, how much do they pay him and for how long and how do they keep him happy while encouraging him to be a good teammate? If they trade him, how do they maximize the deal to get the most in return?
I'd contend those things matter a lot, if not to this season than to next and beyond.
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Erin Andrews probably flaunting in the clubhouse with those skimpy outfits.
#freemilo
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I'm not a Sox fan, just an observer from afar.
I would think how they handle Sale does matter, as he is the best pitcher they have had in a long time. If they keep him, how much do they pay him and for how long and how do they keep him happy while encouraging him to be a good teammate? If they trade him, how do they maximize the deal to get the most in return?
He's under contract through 2019.
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Erin Andrews probably flaunting in the clubhouse with those skimpy outfits.
#freemilo
Mods, could we do something about this guy espousing his politics with every post?
He is already banned, yet he continues to make a political statement in every post.
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Mods, could we do something about this guy espousing his politics with every post?
He is already banned, yet he continues to make a political statement in every post.
There is nothing political in my posts, let alone every one.
You sound like someone complaining about Erin Andrews flaunting in a clubhouse as if she shouldn't be there and has no skills, merely eye candy.
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I was invited to a Sox function at Ronald McDonald House last month. Sale was there, along with Latos (I saw him take the phone call informing him he was released), Duke, Purke, Putnam were there. I'm not going to defend what Sale did yesterday, but I can tell you that Sale personally went up to every single family at the event (proactively, on his own) and sat down and talked to every family that was there for at least 5 minutes each. Since my son got sick two years ago, we've been around a lot of pro athletes, and I've seen no athlete more caring than Sale. There were no PR people with him, no cameras documenting it, the guy legit cared how everyone was doing. I've befriended people in the Sox front office, and they've said Sale is like that at every event he does (and he's the first guy to volunteer to go to these type of events).
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I was especially surprised with the racism that players still endured.
Dave Maranis wrote that in the early 60's , Vince , after a month of being on the practice field under the summer sun, was barred from a Winston-Salem restaurant before an exhibition game because they thought he was black. Vince decided on the spot that he would no longer allow the team to be subjected to any segregation policy.
I can remember hearing some fool screaming the "n" word at Angel's right fielder Don Baylor in Yankee Stadium as late as 1980.
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Erin Andrews probably flaunting in the clubhouse with those skimpy outfits.
#freemilo
Translation?
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Translation?
I'm pissed that I got banned so I'm gonna make everyone else here miserable.
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I'm pissed that I got banned so I'm gonna make everyone else here miserable.
But too a much lesser extent than he made us miserable before he got banned. one or two posts a day, a reasonable man can handle. 10-15: not so much. what a sad life he must have. How traumatic
the ban must have been to him.
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Sounds like the cubs are on the precipice of getting chapman for a package centered around Torres.
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Sounds like the cubs are on the precipice of getting chapman for a package centered around Torres.
As a Cub fan, I'd rather have Miller because I have a conscience.
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Sounds like the cubs are on the precipice of getting chapman for a package centered around Torres.
Yea, they have quite the log jam in the infield for the forseable future. There's also no guarantee a prospect is gonna pan out. For every Bryant and Russell, there's a Felix Pie and Brian Anderson.
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Hearing Torres, Adam Warren, Billy McKinney, and a player to be named.
Certainly a steep price but Chapman is a freak of nature and solves one of the biggest issues for the Cubs. And supposedly an extension talk is in the works.
Character issues are certainly a valid concern but from a baseball perspective, this is huge.
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Hearing Torres, Adam Warren, Billy McKinney, and a player to be named.
Certainly a steep price but Chapman is a freak of nature and solves one of the biggest issues for the Cubs. And supposedly an extension talk is in the works.
Character issues are certainly a valid concern but from a baseball perspective, this is huge.
Wow, surprised to see the Cubs overpaying like this.
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Torres has no future with the Cubs, expendable.
McKinney has been in a downfall for two years now, may never reach the majors.
I wish Warren wasn't involved...
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Torres has no future with the Cubs, expendable.
McKinney has been in a downfall for two years now, may never reach the majors.
I wish Warren wasn't involved...
I'm not concerned with trading Torres, but I'm worried about trading a borderline Top 25 prospect (and more) for a rental, not to mention the baggage that comes with him.
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Torres has no future with the Cubs, expendable.
McKinney has been in a downfall for two years now, may never reach the majors.
I wish Warren wasn't involved...
Torres' future is likely at 2B. He could have had a place with the Cubs at the Major League level.
Warren just got sent to AAA for the second time this season. He's not in the Cubs' plans, in part because he and Maddon haven't really jived. Warren wants to have a set role out of the pen and Maddon prefers to mix it up. Sometimes Warren comes on in long relief, sometimes he's the 8th inning set-up man.
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Honestly though, how is Clayton Richards still on the roster but Adam Warren is not?
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Torres' future is likely at 2B. He could have had a place with the Cubs at the Major League level.
Warren just got sent to AAA for the second time this season. He's not in the Cubs' plans, in part because he and Maddon haven't really jived. Warren wants to have a set role out of the pen and Maddon prefers to mix it up. Sometimes Warren comes on in long relief, sometimes he's the 8th inning set-up man.
I agree with Warren, but he's talented.
Cubs have the middle infield strength, dealing it is fine by me. Zobes thorough 19, Torres should be ready by 18 at the latest. Baez as well.
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I absolutely hate the deal for Chapman. The off-the-field issues speak for themselves but I also feel that Torres is too much to give up for a two-month rental of a relief pitcher, even one as elite as Chapman.
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I absolutely hate the deal for Chapman. The off-the-field issues speak for themselves but I also feel that Torres is too much to give up for a two-month rental of a relief pitcher, even one as elite as Chapman.
Does it change your feelings if they are signing him to an extension? Cause all reports make it seem like its been taking awhile cause extension talks are going on.
Warren wasn't used right by the Cubs, Maddon and the Cubs both admit it, it happens. McKinney is no big deal, and Torres is good but still a bit away in an area the Cubs have a lot of depth. And he's a great prospect, but he'd only be the 4th or 5th best prospect that Cubs had if all their young talent didn't come up so quick. If this gets an elite closer locked up for a few years in his prime? Not bad at all.
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Certainly alot to trade for 30 or so innings, but if you get to the WS because of him, no one will miss Torres or McKinney.
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#donedeal
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The Cubs have an outstanding team, quite possibly the best in baseball.
They have had problems at closer, and probably the best closer in baseball is now theirs.
They have not won the World Series in 108 years and have not reached it in 71 years.
They have a significantly better chance of erasing one or both of those streaks today than they did yesterday.
One reason you build your minor-league system is to have prospects ready to trade for established big-league stars at a time said stars can help win a championship.
This is a total, unequivocal no-brainer.
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I'm not concerned with trading Torres, but I'm worried about trading a borderline Top 25 prospect (and more) for a rental, not to mention the baggage that comes with him.
It's all about winning titles and Chapman addresses the single biggest weakness on the club.
It is a great deal for the Yankees. They are giving up nothing - they are out of this year's race and can resign Chapman if they want - but, it is also a great deal for the Cubs.
Torres is years away yet and middle infield is not a weakness at the major league level with two guys in their early 20s in Russell and Baez.
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The Cubs have an outstanding team, quite possibly the best in baseball.
They have had problems at closer, and probably the best closer in baseball is now theirs.
They have not won the World Series in 108 years and have not reached it in 71 years.
They have a significantly better chance of erasing one or both of those streaks today than they did yesterday.
One reason you build your minor-league system is to have prospects ready to trade for established big-league stars at a time said stars can help win a championship.
This is a total, unequivocal no-brainer.
I've warned you before, 82 - quit stealing my thoughts before I have them and post them here!!
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Yea, really don't understand why Cubs fans are bitching over this trade. Torres would have been called up until at least 2020, and it doesn't look as if Baez is going anywhere, and Russell is in for the long haul.
Also, I'm calling BS on all the claims that say people don't like him because of the domestic abuse. Blackhawks fans (myself included) had no trouble cheering for Kane after punching a cabbie or the rape allegations. (Yes I know he was cleared)
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Yea, really don't understand why Cubs fans are bitching over this trade. Torres would have been called up until at least 2020, and it doesn't look as if Baez is going anywhere, and Russell is in for the long haul.
Also, I'm calling BS on all the claims that say people don't like him because of the domestic abuse. Blackhawks fans (myself included) had no trouble cheering for Kane after punching a cabbie or the rape allegations. (Yes I know he was cleared)
I think you're missing the point for the group that doesn't like the deal. It has nothing to do with when Torres could potentially be called up or that he is blocked. I'd much rather hold on to a piece like that and trade him as part of package for a cost-controlled SP in the offseason than a 2 month rental on a reliever, even one as elite as Chapman. I think it is a massive overpay.
And you're wrong regarding the domestic abuse issue. I have a huge issue that this turd is now on my favorite team. I will still root for the team but I cannot root for him personally.
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What a move by Brian Cashman. He turned Eric Jagielo and Rookie Davis into Mckinney and Torres. No way that deal gets made straight up.
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I think you're missing the point for the group that doesn't like the deal. It has nothing to do with when Torres could potentially be called up or that he is blocked. I'd much rather hold on to a piece like that and trade him as part of package for a cost-controlled SP in the offseason than a 2 month rental on a reliever, even one as elite as Chapman. I think it is a massive overpay.
And you're wrong regarding the domestic abuse issue. I have a huge issue that this turd is now on my favorite team. I will still root for the team but I cannot root for him personally.
They had to overpay if they wanted him. As recently as Sunday it was being reported that the Indians were top dog in the bidding. Supply and demand, lots of competition for his services drove up his price. There is no point in having a great farm system if you cant use it to go for it when you jave a legit chance. Probably too much to trade. Yes. If they Cubs do what they want to do, it will.never matter.
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They had to overpay if they wanted him. As recently as Sunday it was being reported that the Indians were top dog in the bidding. Supply and demand, lots of competition for his services drove up his price. There is no point in having a great farm system if you cant use it to go for it when you jave a legit chance. Probably too much to trade. Yes. If they Cubs do what they want to do, it will.never matter.
I understand all of that. I have no issue with trading prospects, even one as highly regarded as Torres. However, based on the history of this front office, trading that kind of piece for a two month rental doesn't sit well with me. I would have rather let him go to Cleveland.
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I understand all of that. I have no issue with trading prospects, even one as highly regarded as Torres. However, based on the history of this front office, trading that kind of piece for a two month rental doesn't sit well with me. I would have rather let him go to Cleveland.
Especially considering the other RP's available this deadline and the ones that will be available via FA this offseason.
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Yea, really don't understand why Cubs fans are bitching over this trade. Torres would have been called up until at least 2020, and it doesn't look as if Baez is going anywhere, and Russell is in for the long haul.
Torres could very well be called up in September of next year with a shot to make a team in 2018. And when the Cubs decide not to resign a 31 year old Arrieta after next year, Torres would have been an extremely valuable trade chip for a front line SP.
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You bring Theo to Chicago because you trust his ability to get the job done. He has done nothing -- NOTHING -- to disappoint Cubbie fans. He has made a horrible situation into something pretty darn good. And now, in his judgment, Chapman is the final piece.
I don't understand how any Cubs fan could mistrust his judgment on this -- or basically anything at this point.
As for the domestic abuse ... Chapman has suffered the consequences, served his time and vowed to be a better person. Is a person never allowed to repent and heal or is he forever labeled as a horrible human being with no redeeming values and no chance at redemption?
Again, total no-brainer.
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You bring Theo to Chicago because you trust his ability to get the job done. He has done nothing -- NOTHING -- to disappoint Cubbie fans. He has made a horrible situation into something pretty darn good. And now, in his judgment, Chapman is the final piece.
I don't understand how any Cubs fan could mistrust his judgment on this -- or basically anything at this point.
As for the domestic abuse ... Chapman has suffered the consequences, served his time and vowed to be a better person. Is a person never allowed to repent and heal or is he forever labeled as a horrible human being with no redeeming values and no chance at redemption?
Again, total no-brainer.
I question the move because, to me, it contradicts two things this FO has constantly preached. The first is their belief in the best way to win a WS is to win year in and year out and get in to the playoffs. IMO, this does not accomplish that. Secondly, they have always put character and make-up as one of their top priorities, so has Maddon. This move clearly is at odds with that philosophy.
Also, signing anyone with the accusations that Chapman has filed against him is not a "total no-brainer".
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As for the domestic abuse ... Chapman has suffered the consequences, served his time and vowed to be a better person. Is a person never allowed to repent and heal or is he forever labeled as a horrible human being with no redeeming values and no chance at redemption?
When did he vow to be a better person? He apologized for having a gun and claims that he has now gotten rid of it. He never apologized for shoving/choking his girlfriend. In fact, he claimed to have never touched her during the incident, which is different than what he had originally told police.
If a loved one of yours was in the position of his girlfriend, would you be so quick to forgive and forget?
Bottom line: I don't want a guy like that on my team. I hope the Cubs win in spite of him.
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Especially considering the other RP's available this deadline and the ones that will be available via FA this offseason.
Free agency doesnt matter. That doesnt help your team now. They could have gotten a non rental in Miller but wouldnt trade Schwarber. This was their next best option.
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Free agency doesnt matter. That doesnt help your team now. They could have gotten a non rental in Miller but wouldnt trade Schwarber. This was their next best option.
FA doesn't matter when you look at it through the lens of just one season. But when you look at the bigger picture it matters a lot, and that's the way this FO has always approached building this team. They just traded their best prospect (and more) for a rental reliever and you could even argue that Chapman's impact is pretty small.
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I'm not a Cubs fan, but as a baseball fan, love this trade for the Cubs (on the field at least). To me the key to success in sports is to self scout. The Cubs are positioned nicely up the middle, they have quality assets in the minors to acquire a know superstar (on the field) reliever. They can only try to win this year's WS at this point, they keep Chapman from going possibly to Washington, to me it's a no brainier.
All that said, I wouldn't be buying a Chapman jersey.
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I question the move because, to me, it contradicts two things this FO has constantly preached. The first is their belief in the best way to win a WS is to win year in and year out and get in to the playoffs. IMO, this does not accomplish that. Secondly, they have always put character and make-up as one of their top priorities, so has Maddon. This move clearly is at odds with that philosophy.
Also, signing anyone with the accusations that Chapman has filed against him is not a "total no-brainer".
Exactly.
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When did he vow to be a better person? He apologized for having a gun and claims that he has now gotten rid of it. He never apologized for shoving/choking his girlfriend. In fact, he claimed to have never touched her during the incident, which is different than what he had originally told police.
If a loved one of yours was in the position of his girlfriend, would you be so quick to forgive and forget?
Bottom line: I don't want a guy like that on my team. I hope the Cubs win in spite of him.
OK, you seem to know more about the situation than I do. Apparently, Chapman is a lowlife douchebag who should have been suspended longer.
Having said that, I still think it's a total no-brainer for the Cubs.
I'm not a Cubbie fan, never have been and never will be, but if I were, I would absolutely trust Theo Epstein.
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This is a good baseball move. Rondon has been struggling in close save spots, but has been glistening elsewhere. Think this gets him more innings by giving him the 8th to himself.
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What a move by Brian Cashman. He turned Eric Jagielo and Rookie Davis into Mckinney and Torres. No way that deal gets made straight up.
And gets Warren back, so he effectively also gets Starlin Castro in the deal.
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OK, you seem to know more about the situation than I do. Apparently, Chapman is a lowlife douchebag who should have been suspended longer.
Having said that, I still think it's a total no-brainer for the Cubs.
I'm not a Cubbie fan, never have been and never will be, but if I were, I would absolutely trust Theo Epstein.
I'm a huge Cubs fan and have completely trusted Esptein and the front office since they took over. I was always completely on board with "the plan". I understand things change when you are World Series contender and I am not opposed to trading prospect currency. That's what it is there for when you get this close.
However, I do think trading Torres for a two-month rental is too much. Chapman could just as easily have no impact whatsoever in the post-season, leave as a free agent, and then you don't have Torres as a chip for getting a cost-controlled starter, which this team will eventually need.
When you add the domestic issues on top of that I just don't think I'll be able to root for the guy personally. I'm trying to figure out a way to reconcile my disgust with Chapman for my love of the team.
I also think the team could have still won it all without going in this particular direction.
I'll be very curious to hear Epstein's and Ricketts' take on the trade and the off-the-field aspect.
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Again, there are reports ALL over that the Cubs are pushing for an extension to be signed. If thats the case, it makes more sense, aligns more with Epstein's long term vision, and makes this a great move. Could still be a rental, but I'm going to wait to pass judgement till I find out. This doesn't feel like CC with the Brewers just yet.
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There's zero chance Chapman is signing an extension before the season ends. I would focus strictly on 2016 if I was a Cubs fan.
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I'll be very curious to hear Epstein's and Ricketts' take on the trade and the off-the-field aspect.
They'll give some canned spiel about how everyone makes mistakes, there were no charges filed, he's shown remorse, etc. In the end though, they simply don't care about anything other than whether or not he can help the team win. While in Boston, Theo signed Eric Gagne and Brendan Donnelly knowing full well that both were PEDs guys (not to mention all the users already on the roster). That stuff simply doesn't matter. His job is to build a team that will win a World Series. Personally, I'd prefer it if my favorite MLB team had some higher standards than that, but that's not the nature of the business.
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Trying to figure out how our Cub friends are going to root for the team but not the player. Are they going to root for Chapman to blow the save in the 9th and then have the team win it in the 10th? Are they only going to attend Cub games when Chapman is not rested and they know he won't pitch?
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Cubs fans are excited to cheer for a guy that beat a girl. Disturbing.
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When did he vow to be a better person? He apologized for having a gun and claims that he has now gotten rid of it. He never apologized for shoving/choking his girlfriend. In fact, he claimed to have never touched her during the incident, which is different than what he had originally told police.
I have never seen any report that Chapman's denial was "different than what he had originally told police." Do you have a link to support this statement?
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Cubs fans are excited to cheer for a guy that beat a girl. Disturbing.
Ehhh ... I'm far from a Cubs fan, but I have a hard time thinking they're much different from any other fan base in this regard. I'd have a hard time finding a single group out there that hasn't embraced an unlikable criminal who brought their team wins.
As for the trade itself, there's some risk involved for the Cubs to be sure, but even if Chapman doesn't re-sign in the offseason, the Cubs will end up getting a decent compensatory pick out of it.
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Ehhh ... I'm far from a Cubs fan, but I have a hard time thinking they're much different from any other fan base in this regard. I'd have a hard time finding a single group out there that hasn't embraced an unlikable criminal who brought their team wins.
As for the trade itself, there's some risk involved for the Cubs to be sure, but even if Chapman doesn't re-sign in the offseason, the Cubs will end up getting a decent compensatory pick out of it.
Unfortunately for the Cubs, players traded mid-season are ineligible for the qualifying offer, so he's an expensive 2-3 month rental.
I'm looking at Chapman as a hired mercenary. Certainly not excited about the Cubs adding a guy that's probably a woman-beater, but the reality is I'm a Cubs fan and won't stop cheering for the team when he pitches, and I'm certainly not going to chastise the front office for acquiring the top relief arm on the market, despite the obvious character questions. Not sure if it's the cost of doing business in sports these days, or me trying to rationalize cheering for Chapman, but that's where I'm at today.
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I'm a huge Cubs fan and have completely trusted Esptein and the front office since they took over. I was always completely on board with "the plan". I understand things change when you are World Series contender and I am not opposed to trading prospect currency. That's what it is there for when you get this close.
However, I do think trading Torres for a two-month rental is too much. Chapman could just as easily have no impact whatsoever in the post-season, leave as a free agent, and then you don't have Torres as a chip for getting a cost-controlled starter, which this team will eventually need.
When you add the domestic issues on top of that I just don't think I'll be able to root for the guy personally. I'm trying to figure out a way to reconcile my disgust with Chapman for my love of the team.
I also think the team could have still won it all without going in this particular direction.
I'll be very curious to hear Epstein's and Ricketts' take on the trade and the off-the-field aspect.
Okey dokey, VBMG. You're entitled to your opinion and I understand the points you're making.
I will be very curious to hear if you celebrate the Cubs' first championship since 1908 now that they've stooped so low. Especially if Chapman is World Series MVP for saving all four games in spectacular fashion!
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Unfortunately for the Cubs, players traded mid-season are ineligible for the qualifying offer, so he's an expensive 2-3 month rental.
D'oh. Forgot that.
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Cubs fans are excited to cheer for a guy that beat a girl. Disturbing.
Ehhh, pump the brakes on that statement. I'm by no means a cubs fan and I don't even think that. However, on that same note, I find it ironic how chicagoans are so quick to forgive Patrick Kane but are so against Chapman.
However, to say you cheer for the organization but not the player is just silly. The originization deemed that it was fine to take guys with a checkered past, you cant play both sides because it was the organizations decision to bring him in in spite of his apparent character issues.
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Cubs fans are excited to cheer for a guy that beat a girl. Disturbing.
http://deadspin.com/5019197/smack-my-bitch-up-major-league-baseballs-continuing-domestic-abuse-problem
(http://deadspin.com/5019197/smack-my-bitch-up-major-league-baseballs-continuing-domestic-abuse-problem)
MLB-- like all sports-- is littered with a$$holes.
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Okey dokey, VBMG. You're entitled to your opinion and I understand the points you're making.
I will be very curious to hear if you celebrate the Cubs' first championship since 1908 now that they've stooped so low. Especially if Chapman is World Series MVP for saving all four games in spectacular fashion!
That's a bit of hyperbole on your part. Is it not ok to be conflicted about a move like this?
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Ehhh, pump the brakes on that statement. I'm by no means a cubs fan and I don't even think that. However, on that same note, I find it ironic how chicagoans are so quick to forgive Patrick Kane but are so against Chapman.
However, to say you cheer for the organization but not the player is just silly. The originization deemed that it was fine to take guys with a checkered past, you cant play both sides because it was the organizations decision to bring him in in spite of his apparent character issues.
I think with Kane it was a matter of time passing after the cabbie incident in which he cleaned up his act mostly until the incident last year in Buffalo in which he was subsequently cleared of charges. So it makes it a bit easier to reconcile when he's before an MVP player. I know a lot of Hawks fans who are still uneasy about it.
With Chapman, it's still new and fresh and pending. If he stays out of further trouble, isn't convicted of further charges, it will likely be pushed back.
And unfortunately, if you're a fan of any NFL team, you likely unintentionally support any number of crapty individuals, albeit lower profile. I think you can support an organization and root for success without condoning bad behavior. As far as it being a "black mark" on any potential playoff success the Cubs might have, I think that's a bit extreme. He was deemed worthy of the no facial hair allowing Yankees for gods sake.
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I'll be very curious to hear Epstein's and Ricketts' take on the trade and the off-the-field aspect.
They will say whatever is necessary. Theo has already built a team that is positioned well for the future. Bottom line is that winning matters and this is a move to win it all THIS year.
Both teams got a good deal with neither giving up anything that will hurt their chances of winning this year or next. Yankees are going nowhere and can resign Chapman. None of the four the Cubs gave up is in their plans for this year or next.
It was really a 1-for-1. Warren is the kind of guy you can sign anytime. McKinney projects as a 4th OFer. Strictly end of the bench type guys.
So giving up Torres for Chapman to try to win it all this year is a no-brainer. At least on the baseball side of the ledger.
As far as a person, I am all for giving someone a 2nd chance if they served their punishment. That is assuming, however, they admit what they did and express remorse. Chapman has done neither. He is an abuser of woman and I fully expect it will happen again at some point in the future. If it would have been up to me, the suspension would have been at least for a year.
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Look, from an outside perspective. Cubs have the talent to win this year, especially if they go down to a 4 man rotation in the playoffs.
All things considered, they are pretty healthy, are very likely to make the playoffs and they addressed the concern that was their bullpen with Montgomery and Chapman. It's been a looong time since 1908, if your the Cubs organization you do everything on your power to win right now. All it takes is 1 to get the ball rolling, just look at the Blackhawks.
Also, let's hold off on the Torres is the best prospect in the system. So was Felix Pie, and Brian Anderson for the White Sox, look where that got them, and they were in AAA at the time.
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That's a bit of hyperbole on your part. Is it not ok to be conflicted about a move like this?
Of course it is.
I'm just saying that if I were a Cubbie fan, I'd be totally thrilled by this no-brainer of a trade.
You, on the other hand, are conflicted ... but you will still be happy to attend (or at least watch) the Grant Park celebration if it happens. And that's cool!
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Nm.
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I have never seen any report that Chapman's denial was "different than what he had originally told police." Do you have a link to support this statement?
According to the police report...
"In Chapman’s version of the story, he told police he used his index and middle fingers and “poked his girlfriend on the left shoulder and told her not to talk to him like that,” according to the report.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/aroldis-chapman-s-girlfriend-alleged-he--choked--her--according-to-police-report-023629095.html (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/aroldis-chapman-s-girlfriend-alleged-he--choked--her--according-to-police-report-023629095.html)
In his apology...
“But I also want to say I had no physical contact with my girlfriend. I want this to be very clear."
http://nypost.com/2016/03/02/aroldis-chapmans-vow-after-incident-no-more-guns/ (http://nypost.com/2016/03/02/aroldis-chapmans-vow-after-incident-no-more-guns/)
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Not trying to overstate it, but the Heyward contract could turn into a gigantic dumpster fire. If you're a fan of his, do not go on FanGraphs, his advanced metrics have him as a sub replacement level player. If you're the Cubs, he's your defensive fourth outfielder the rest of the year. Lots of years and a ton of cash left, good news is he's 26, bad news is he's badly regressing.
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You sure you don't want to reconsider your thoughts on Shields?
Right back at you. :D
Not a bad night for a guy who is "fairly mediocre" eh?
Tonight marks the 6th straight start in which Shields has allowed 2 runs or less.
Over his last 7 starts he has an ERA of 2.17 and a WHIP around 1.10.
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Not trying to overstate it, but the Heyward contract could turn into a gigantic dumpster fire. If you're a fan of his, do not go on FanGraphs, his advanced metrics have him as a sub replacement level player. If you're the Cubs, he's your defensive fourth outfielder the rest of the year. Lots of years and a ton of cash left, good news is he's 26, bad news is he's badly regressing.
There is no real way to defend his bat. He's been horrible and its his worst season since he was 21-22. I'm not freaking out yet cause he wasn't here to be a key hitter and he's still been a good defensive outfielder. He's 26 just off a Gold Glove and top-15 MVP vote getting season. Id like to believe on a team that hits well he can get some instruction and turn it around. If he's hitting sub-.240 again next year, then yea they have a problem.
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Right back at you. :D
Not a bad night for a guy who is "fairly mediocre" eh?
Tonight marks the 6th straight start in which Shields has allowed 2 runs or less.
Over his last 7 starts he has an ERA of 2.17 and a WHIP around 1.10.
Won't last. The Cubs performance was embarrassing.
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Not trying to overstate it, but the Heyward contract could turn into a gigantic dumpster fire. If you're a fan of his, do not go on FanGraphs, his advanced metrics have him as a sub replacement level player. If you're the Cubs, he's your defensive fourth outfielder the rest of the year. Lots of years and a ton of cash left, good news is he's 26, bad news is he's badly regressing.
He's been horrendous but he has a track record of being a good offensive player and he is 26. Might be a combination of the team changing his mechanics/swing to try to hit for more power as well as the pressure of that contract. This may be a lost season, however.
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Won't last. The Cubs performance was embarrassing.
White Sox clinched retention of the Crosstown Cup for the 7th time in the last 8 years! Sox dominate regular season games vs their northside rivals and crushed the Cubbies in their only World Series meeting!
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Not trying to overstate it, but the Heyward contract could turn into a gigantic dumpster fire. If you're a fan of his, do not go on FanGraphs, his advanced metrics have him as a sub replacement level player. If you're the Cubs, he's your defensive fourth outfielder the rest of the year. Lots of years and a ton of cash left, good news is he's 26, bad news is he's badly regressing.
184 million for a three year younger version of JB Shuck does seem a little excessive.
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Sox have a better Heyward in Eaton.
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Not trying to overstate it, but the Heyward contract could turn into a gigantic dumpster fire. If you're a fan of his, do not go on FanGraphs, his advanced metrics have him as a sub replacement level player. If you're the Cubs, he's your defensive fourth outfielder the rest of the year. Lots of years and a ton of cash left, good news is he's 26, bad news is he's badly regressing.
His 7-year deal includes an opt-out after 3 years, which looked like a good structure at the time, but if he continues to struggle, there's no way he's opting out and the Cubs would be paying over $110M to the poor man's Adam Eaton.
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His 7-year deal includes an opt-out after 3 years, which looked like a good structure at the time, but if he continues to struggle, there's no way he's opting out and the Cubs would be paying over $110M to the poor man's Adam Eaton.
Very true. It's also possible this season proves to be the exception and he bounces back. I'd be more concerned if he wasn't so young (not saying I'm not concerned - I most definitely am).
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Sox have a better Heyward in Eaton.
And the Cubs have a better Heyward in Matt Szczur, playing just above replacement level in limited opportunities. Not good.
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If the Cubs are still looking for an outfielder Ryan Braun's having a pretty great year...
He'd fit right in with those guys.
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Very true. It's also possible this season proves to be the exception and he bounces back. I'd be more concerned if he wasn't so young (not saying I'm not concerned - I most definitely am).
I agree entirely. Every time he steps to the plate I'm waiting for the low, outside corner pitch he'll softly tap to the second basemen or right up the middle to the SS. It's been an absolute train wreck of a year. Keeping the faith since he's 26 and has a track record of success. Hope there's a full-time resource dedicated to his bat in the off-season. Maybe someone like Greg Walker, who's currently unemployed (to my knowledge) that JHey is familiar with from his days in Atlanta.
Great RF with a mostly accurate cannon, but that sure as sh*t ins't worth nearly $200M with a weak bat.
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So, that James Shields trade maybe not so bad after all for the White Sox.
Stat line in last six starts:
3-3, 1.71 ERA, 42.0 IP, 32 hits, 8 earned runs, 12 walks, 21 Ks, .209 average against, 1.05 WHIP
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So, that James Shields trade maybe not so bad after all for the White Sox.
Stat line in last six starts:
3-3, 1.71 ERA, 42.0 IP, 32 hits, 8 earned runs, 12 walks, 21 Ks, .209 average against, 1.05 WHIP
I'm convinced that Shields was tipping his pitches and Cooper finally straightened him out. To see an established veteran get shelled the way that he did over the course of 2-3 weeks, there was clearly something going on that had nothing to do with his actual stuff.
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Very true. It's also possible this season proves to be the exception and he bounces back. I'd be more concerned if he wasn't so young (not saying I'm not concerned - I most definitely am).
Exception?
Hayward's typical season is 16 HR and 58 RBI. His career averages are .264 BA, .349 OBP, .416 SLG for a .768 OPS. His averages with RISP are even lower. His WAR is nothing special.
Almost every team, including the Cubs, has a half-dozen players every bit as productive.
He is a heck of a fielder, absolutely. Defensive specialists sure have become expensive!
I'm a big believer in saying that an athlete is "worth" whatever a team will pay him. Still ...
It appears Theo was so desperate to fill a perceived need -- and to do so at the expense of the Cardinals -- that he may have hung an albatross around the Cubbies' necks for the rest of the decade and beyond.
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I'm convinced that Shields was tipping his pitches and Cooper finally straightened him out. To see an established veteran get shelled the way that he did over the course of 2-3 weeks, there was clearly something going on that had nothing to do with his actual stuff.
I'm inclined to agree. Over 4 or 5 starts it was like he was throwing batting practice. Hitters looked like they knew what was coming.
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He's been horrendous but he has a track record of being a good offensive player and he is 26. Might be a combination of the team changing his mechanics/swing to try to hit for more power as well as the pressure of that contract. This may be a lost season, however.
His hands are too high and close to his body - there's so much movement just to get them to where he can swing the bat. And if he doesn't move them he ties himself up. Think his struggles continue unless his mechanics change.
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It appears Theo was so desperate to fill a perceived need -- and to do so at the expense of the Cardinals -- that he may have hung an albatross around the Cubbies' necks for the rest of the decade and beyond.
For rich teams in MLB, there's really no such thing as an albatross. Sure, the Cubs could find themselves stuck with a very expensive fourth outfielder, but it's not as if they'll ever lack the financial resources or cap space to correct the error.
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For rich teams in MLB, there's really no such thing as an albatross. Sure, the Cubs could find themselves stuck with a very expensive fourth outfielder, but it's not as if they'll ever lack the financial resources or cap space to correct the error.
Excellent point.
It's only money!
Ricketts has it, and he can get plenty more of it by increasing the cost of bleacher seats to $100 and beer to $20!
Let's play 2!
(Day/night variety, of course; gotta get that extra gate.)
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Excellent point.
It's only money!
Ricketts has it, and he can get plenty more of it by increasing the cost of bleacher seats to $100 and beer to $20!
Let's play 2!
(Day/night variety, of course; gotta get that extra gate.)
Just wait until the Wrigley renovations are complete! The money will be rolling in! Then again, they'll need to pay some seat-fillers so that the TV audience doesn't see a bunch of empty seats behind home plate...that could be theirs for just 2 grand a piece!
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What's now interesting about Shields is if he'll opt out after this season. He'll have an interesting decision to make. I wouldn't be shocked if he got moved in the next few days.
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What's now interesting about Shields is if he'll opt out after this season. He'll have an interesting decision to make. I wouldn't be shocked if he got moved in the next few days.
I still think it is unlikely, as he has 2 yrs and 43million ( at least, there is an option on a following year option is at 16 million, with a 2 million buyout I included in his 43 million remaining). So he would have to project, what 4 years 60 million to make it worth it or so? You never know, but I think it is unlikely.
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His 7-year deal includes an opt-out after 3 years, which looked like a good structure at the time, but if he continues to struggle, there's no way he's opting out and the Cubs would be paying over $110M to the poor man's Adam Eaton.
That's the problem with opt-outs. They just ensure the team is hurt. You commit long term to a guy, but if he plays up to his deal, he opts out and you didn't get him long term. If he isn't good you are stuck with him. It is all the risk of a long term deal with none of the benefits.
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That's the problem with opt-outs. They just ensure the team is hurt. You commit long term to a guy, but if he plays up to his deal, he opts out and you didn't get him long term. If he isn't good you are stuck with him. It is all the risk of a long term deal with none of the benefits.
I mean, it's not like the Sox are paying Shields salary. (or at least all of it) Really what Shields decides to do doesn't affect the Sox in the slightest.
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That's the problem with opt-outs. They just ensure the team is hurt. You commit long term to a guy, but if he plays up to his deal, he opts out and you didn't get him long term. If he isn't good you are stuck with him. It is all the risk of a long term deal with none of the benefits.
Given Heyward's age and value this past off-season, I was completely okay with taking the Cubs taking the risk. If not, he probably only signs with the Cubs if it's something like $210M+ (another $3M plus annually) over 8 years. His leaving after three years would mean he's earned the contract. Unfortunately, the poor man's Eaton may prove correct. The risk with the opt out is the reality of the market today.
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His hands are too high and close to his body - there's so much movement just to get them to where he can swing the bat. And if he doesn't move them he ties himself up. Think his struggles continue unless his mechanics change.
Ugh. Agree.
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Exception?
Hayward's typical season is 16 HR and 58 RBI. His career averages are .264 BA, .349 OBP, .416 SLG for a .768 OPS. His averages with RISP are even lower. His WAR is nothing special.
Almost every team, including the Cubs, has a half-dozen players every bit as productive.
He is a heck of a fielder, absolutely. Defensive specialists sure have become expensive!
I'm a big believer in saying that an athlete is "worth" whatever a team will pay him. Still ...
It appears Theo was so desperate to fill a perceived need -- and to do so at the expense of the Cardinals -- that he may have hung an albatross around the Cubbies' necks for the rest of the decade and beyond.
I mean you're wrong about Heyward's past from an offensive perspective, so there's that.
Heyward was never a dominant offensive player but he was a good offensive player, and combined with his defense, base running, and age, that made for an excellent player.
Here are his WARs over each of the last 4 years. The numbers below absolutely do not equate to "nothing special". They are excellent.
ESPN WAR: 5.5, 3.6, 6.4, 6.5
Fangraphs WAR: 6.5, 3.4, 5.2, 6.0
Here are some additional numbers over the last 4 years:
OPS: .814, .776, .735, .798. So far this year - .630
wRC+: 121, 120, 110, 121. So far this year - 74
OPS+: 117, 114, 109, 117. This year - 72
Not only are these the lowest numbers of his career but they are so incredibly far away from his track record that they almost defy belief. Epstein added him not because he was desperate or to stick it to the Cardinals but because he was a 26 year old free agent with an excellent track record just going into his prime. Both Washington and St. Louis, two good organizations, offered him over $200 million. It certainly hasn't worked thus far but the logic made sense. Hopefully he is currently at rock bottom.
And please don't use a counting stat like RBIs to represent the quality of a player.
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So, that James Shields trade maybe not so bad after all for the White Sox.
Stat line in last six starts:
3-3, 1.71 ERA, 42.0 IP, 32 hits, 8 earned runs, 12 walks, 21 Ks, .209 average against, 1.05 WHIP
Shields was never going to be as horrendous as his first few starts with the Sox. He is also not going to continue to be as good as above because those numbers are will not continue. Prior to the start last night, over his last 5 starts, he had a 5.10 FIP, a horrible 11.8% strike out rate, a .208 BABIP, and a 100% strand rate. That type of luck will not continue.
With what the Sox are paying him he'll be an decent innings eater. But I'll be surprised if he is anything more than an average to mediocre pitcher for the next 2 plus years.
He would also be crazy to opt out of his current deal.
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Shields was never going to be as horrendous as his first few starts with the Sox. He is also not going to continue to be as good as above because those numbers are will not continue. Prior to the start last night, over his last 5 starts, he had a 5.10 FIP, a horrible 11.8% strike out rate, a .208 BABIP, and a 100% strand rate. That type of luck will not continue.
With what the Sox are paying him he'll be an decent innings eater. But I'll be surprised if he is anything more than an average to mediocre pitcher for the next 2 plus years.
He would also be crazy to opt out of his current deal.
You wanna talk about meaningless stats like RBIs, then look no further than strike out rate and BABIP. His changeup gets so much soft contact I wouldn't call it "lucky"
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The thing about the Heyward signing is the macro level concern. As good as he is for trading for talent, and maybe the best in the game at drafting talent, Epstein's free agency track record is abysmal.
Renteria 4/$40, bought out after one year, Boston paid him $22 mil for that one terrible season
Lugo 4/$36, only played three years in Boston
Matsuzaka 6/$52 + $52 posting fee, in essence 6/$104
Drew 5/$70
Lackey (Boston) 5/$82.5, beer/chicken fiasco
Crawford 7/$142
EJax 4/$52
Yes, he did sign Ortiz his first winter as a GM in Boston to on a one year flyer, and that worked out tremendously well.
Jury is still out on Heyward, Lester looks good now, but I'm worried about paying him $27.5 per at ages 34 & 35 (with one additional year at $20, and an option at age 37 of $25). It's not that the Red Sox or Cubs couldn't/can't absorb bad money deals, but free agency decisions have not been a strength for Theo.
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What was the point in the White Sox getting Shields? They suck. And he'll opt out if he finishes the year a stud.
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You wanna talk about meaningless stats like RBIs, then look no further than strike out rate and BABIP. His changeup gets so much soft contact I wouldn't call it "lucky"
Strike out rate and BABIP are absolutely not meaningless. Shields career BABIP is .297 and it has been between .292 and .299 the last 5 years. So yeah, .209 or anything close to it will not last.
His career K rate is 20.7%. This season he is at a career low 16.1%, which is still higher than the rate during his recent hot streak. Not a good sign.
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Shields was never going to be as horrendous as his first few starts with the Sox. He is also not going to continue to be as good as above because those numbers are will not continue. Prior to the start last night, over his last 5 starts, he had a 5.10 FIP, a horrible 11.8% strike out rate, a .208 BABIP, and a 100% strand rate. That type of luck will not continue.
With what the Sox are paying him he'll be an decent innings eater. But I'll be surprised if he is anything more than an average to mediocre pitcher for the next 2 plus years.
He would also be crazy to opt out of his current deal.
Unless they flip him in the next few days for more than they gave up for him (looking at you, Texas), Sox will pay Shields $20 million over the next two seasons, assuming he doesn't opt out. That's very much a bargain for what he is, i.e. a veteran middle of the rotation starter who will eat up 200+ innings every year.
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Strike out rate and BABIP are absolutely not meaningless. Shields career BABIP is .297 and it has been between .292 and .299 the last 5 years. So yeah, .209 or anything close to it will not last.
His career K rate is 20.7%. This season he is at a career low 16.1%, which is still higher than the rate during his recent hot streak. Not a good sign.
You're right, he likely won't fare as well as he has over his last several starts.
So what?
He'll very likely serve as a solid mid-rotation inning eater costing the team only $10 million per.
And that's a very good deal for the White Sox (should they keep him).
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Unless they flip him in the next few days for more than they gave up for him (looking at you, Texas), Sox will pay Shields $20 million over the next two seasons, assuming he doesn't opt out. That's very much a bargain for what he is, i.e. a veteran middle of the rotation starter who will eat up 200+ innings every year.
I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a #3 in a playoff caliber rotation at this point in his career. (From a previous discussion).
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I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a #3 in a playoff caliber rotation at this point in his career. (From a previous discussion).
Well, the Giants just won a World Series with Ryan Vogelsong as their #4 starter, which is what Shields would be in this current version of the White Sox (Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Shields).
The Sox aren't a playoff caliber team, but it's not because of the quality of their #4 starter.
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I mean, it's not like the Sox are paying Shields salary. (or at least all of it) Really what Shields decides to do doesn't affect the Sox in the slightest.
I meant that for Heyward. Sorry about the confusion. Yeah, the Sox arent really paying Shields much so not the biggest deal.
Vbmg is just irritated a mediocre pitcher made his cubs "embarrassing "-his words- his Cubs. Especially in k-ing Bryant 3 times.
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I seem to remember Edinson Volquez being the number 1 starter on a team that just won the World Series.
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I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think he's anywhere close to a #3 in a playoff caliber rotation at this point in his career. (From a previous discussion).
He did just completely dominate one of the best offenses in the NL, so there is that.
Will he be dominant every start of the year, of course not. But he sure has the potential to do that each time out. In his career he has been great at keeping his team in games. That is all the Sox, or any other team would need out of a mid rotation starter.
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I meant that for Heyward. Sorry about the confusion. Yeah, the Sox arent really paying Shields much so not the biggest deal.
Vbmg is just irritated a mediocre pitcher made his cubs "embarrassing "-his words- his Cubs. Especially in k-ing Bryant 3 times.
I'm certainly irritated. Shields has owned Bryant in their limited matchups.
The Cubs have been shut down a lot recently by pitchers I wouldn't consider to be very good. They are scuffling big time.
My thoughts on Shields aren't based on an anti White Sox bias. I just don't think he's particularly good anymore, and I'm not alone as far as that's concerned.
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He did just completely dominate one of the best offenses in the NL, so there is that.
Will he be dominant every start of the year, of course not. But he sure has the potential to do that each time out. In his career he has been great at keeping his team in games. That is all the Sox, or any other team would need out of a mid rotation starter.
I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of that. I think to a certain extent our disagreement is based on semantics.
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The thing about the Heyward signing is the macro level concern. As good as he is for trading for talent, and maybe the best in the game at drafting talent, Epstein's free agency track record is abysmal.
Renteria 4/$40, bought out after one year, Boston paid him $22 mil for that one terrible season
Lugo 4/$36, only played three years in Boston
Matsuzaka 6/$52 + $52 posting fee, in essence 6/$104
Drew 5/$70
Lackey (Boston) 5/$82.5, beer/chicken fiasco
Crawford 7/$142
EJax 4/$52
Yes, he did sign Ortiz his first winter as a GM in Boston to on a one year flyer, and that worked out tremendously well.
Jury is still out on Heyward, Lester looks good now, but I'm worried about paying him $27.5 per at ages 34 & 35 (with one additional year at $20, and an option at age 37 of $25). It's not that the Red Sox or Cubs couldn't/can't absorb bad money deals, but free agency decisions have not been a strength for Theo.
Wow! I had no idea Theo's record with free agents was that bad. Even Jim Hendry's success rate was better than that.
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I mean you're wrong about Heyward's past from an offensive perspective, so there's that.
Heyward was never a dominant offensive player but he was a good offensive player, and combined with his defense, base running, and age, that made for an excellent player.
Here are his WARs over each of the last 4 years. The numbers below absolutely do not equate to "nothing special". They are excellent.
ESPN WAR: 5.5, 3.6, 6.4, 6.5
Fangraphs WAR: 6.5, 3.4, 5.2, 6.0
Here are some additional numbers over the last 4 years:
OPS: .814, .776, .735, .798. So far this year - .630
wRC+: 121, 120, 110, 121. So far this year - 74
OPS+: 117, 114, 109, 117. This year - 72
Not only are these the lowest numbers of his career but they are so incredibly far away from his track record that they almost defy belief. Epstein added him not because he was desperate or to stick it to the Cardinals but because he was a 26 year old free agent with an excellent track record just going into his prime. Both Washington and St. Louis, two good organizations, offered him over $200 million. It certainly hasn't worked thus far but the logic made sense. Hopefully he is currently at rock bottom.
And please don't use a counting stat like RBIs to represent the quality of a player.
Yes, sir!
We'll see how Heyward works out over several years.
I've never been overly impressed, but who the hell am I?
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BABIP is a useless stat? And K rate?
Easy there Hawk, you'll be calling Russell a Latin player in no time.
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Wow! I had no idea Theo's record with free agents was that bad. Even Jim Hendry's success rate was better than that.
The difference is Hendry would outbid himself, Theo just spends the money he Is given.
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BABIP is a useless stat? And K rate?
Easy there Hawk, you'll be calling Russell a Latin player in no time.
Holy red herring.
For pitchers, BABIP isn't quite useless, but it's not particularly valuable either. It tells us nothing about why or how a pitcher is giving up more or less hits than the mean. Is he getting hit harder than the average pitcher? Is he coaxing more fly balls than line drives or ground balls? Is he just unlucky? The stat, while interesting, ultimately provides little insight because it lacks any context.
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Holy red herring.
For pitchers, BABIP isn't quite useless, but it's not particularly valuable either. It tells us nothing about why or how a pitcher is giving up more or less hits than the mean. Is he getting hit harder than the average pitcher? Is he coaxing more fly balls than line drives or ground balls? Is he just unlucky? The stat, while interesting, ultimately provides little insight because it lacks any context.
It lacks context in itself, but provides context to why a pitcher may be experiencing a a downturn or upturn.
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No stat matters on its own. If a guy is hitting .400 that looks great. If it is in 10ABs, eh, no big deal. You have to look at everything together. There are some that stand better on their own merits than others, but you need to whole picture to have it make sense.
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On a personal note, as a dad of daughters, it is both frustrating and infuriating to see people give Chapman a standing ovation coming into a game. I didn't understand the support for Ray Rice, and I don't understand it here. I have no idea, but I'm willing to bet Theo doesn't have a daughter.
Sorry...
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On a personal note, as a dad of daughters, it is both frustrating and infuriating to see people give Chapman a standing ovation coming into a game. I didn't understand the support for Ray Rice, and I don't understand it here. I have no idea, but I'm willing to bet Theo doesn't have a daughter.
Sorry...
As mentioned before, I wasn't a fan of the trade from a value or off the field perspective. However, I also don't think, based on what is known, that the comparison to Rice is a valid one.
I don't think a person needs to have a daughter to have an issue. I also don't think you're being fair to Epstein if you're insinuating he doesn't realize the seriousness of potential domestic violence.
Do you have the same problem with Kenny Williams and Jerry Reinsdorf based on the Brett Myers trade in 2008?
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On a personal note, as a dad of daughters, it is both frustrating and infuriating to see people give Chapman a standing ovation coming into a game. I didn't understand the support for Ray Rice, and I don't understand it here. I have no idea, but I'm willing to bet Theo doesn't have a daughter.
Sorry...
FWIW, Theo has 2 sons. At the end of the day though, his job is to assemble the best team possible and he showed during his very successful tenure in Boston that, when push comes to shove, he'll take talent over character and he's far from being the only GM who thinks this way. I don't like having Chapman on my favorite team and I hope they win in spite of him, but the move didn't surprise me.
The Cubs knew there was a risk involved in trading for Chapman and they completely dropped the ball on the whole situation post-trade. Allowing reporters to speak with Chapman via translator Henry Blanco was a complete cluster, capped off by Chapman saying that he doesn't recall the heart-to-heart phone call with Theo and Ricketts. Then the club went into CYA mode and had Chapman do a off-camera one-on-one interview in Spanish in which he claimed that something was lost in translation during the previous media session. I mean, it's not like the guy has been dealing with the media via a translator for 7+ years or anything.
Also, where has Ricketts been? He should have been front and center on this, along with his sister Laura. Her family owns the team and she sits on the BoD. From a PR standpoint, who better to help the franchise preach forgiveness and second chances and reform on behalf of a wife-beater than a high-ranking female? Unless, of course, she wasn't on board with the move...
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FWIW, Theo has 2 sons. At the end of the day though, his job is to assemble the best team possible and he showed during his very successful tenure in Boston that, when push comes to shove, he'll take talent over character and he's far from being the only GM who thinks this way. I don't like having Chapman on my favorite team and I hope they win in spite of him, but the move didn't surprise me.
The Cubs knew there was a risk involved in trading for Chapman and they completely dropped the ball on the whole situation post-trade. Allowing reporters to speak with Chapman via translator Henry Blanco was a complete cluster, capped off by Chapman saying that he doesn't recall the heart-to-heart phone call with Theo and Ricketts. Then the club went into CYA mode and had Chapman do a off-camera one-on-one interview in Spanish in which he claimed that something was lost in translation during the previous media session. I mean, it's not like the guy has been dealing with the media via a translator for 7+ years or anything.
Also, where has Ricketts been? He should have been front and center on this, along with his sister Laura. Her family owns the team and she sits on the BoD. From a PR standpoint, who better to help the franchise preach forgiveness and second chances and reform on behalf of a wife-beater than a high-ranking female? Unless, of course, she wasn't on board with the move...
I am as skeptical as anyone regarding Chapman's story and his girlfriend changing her account and not pressing charges. I've also read the police report, etc. As skeptical as I am I don't think there is enough conclusive proof to know for certain that he is or refer to him as a wife beater.
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Also, where has Ricketts been? He should have been front and center on this, along with his sister Laura. Her family owns the team and she sits on the BoD. From a PR standpoint, who better to help the franchise preach forgiveness and second chances and reform on behalf of a wife-beater than a high-ranking female? Unless, of course, she wasn't on board with the move...
From day one, the family has always stayed out of baseball decisions and has stated that. I'm sure due to the situation, they were consulted. However, it still comes down to a baseball decision. It's good for the baseball team.
I think you're stretching by thinking Laura had much involvement at all with this trade.
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From day one, the family has always stayed out of baseball decisions and has stated that. I'm sure due to the situation, they were consulted. However, it still comes down to a baseball decision. It's good for the baseball team.
I think you're stretching by thinking Laura had much involvement at all with this trade.
I never said that she had involvement in the trade. I was merely saying that, from a purely PR standpoint, it could have been beneficial to have the highest ranking female within the organization publicly sign-off on bringing in a player with Chapman's history.
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I am as skeptical as anyone regarding Chapman's story and his girlfriend changing her account and not pressing charges. I've also read the police report, etc. As skeptical as I am I don't think there is enough conclusive proof to know for certain that he is or refer to him as a wife beater.
Fair enough. How about instead of "wife-beater," we refer to him as "a guy who grabbed a gun and made his girlfriend fear for her life and may or may not have choked her?"
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Fair enough. How about instead of "wife-beater," we refer to him as "a guy who grabbed a gun and made his girlfriend fear for her life and may or may not have choked her?"
That works. I'm definitely not trying to minimize the impact of what he did.
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I never said that she had involvement in the trade. I was merely saying that, from a purely PR standpoint, it could have been beneficial to have the highest ranking female within the organization publicly sign-off on bringing in a player with Chapman's history.
I agree with this. Of course, it's possible the media could have turned it around as well ("Laura being used a puppet, etc.).
Of course, she may have been vehemently against the trade, was overruled, and in that case her taking that stance would be disingenuous.
I also wonder if Epstein's lack of a contract extension had any impact all. That being said, I'm not concerned about that aspect as Epstein isn't going anywhere.
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It's like when the Bulls got Rodman.
Except Chapman doesn't have the long track record of being a miscreant, like Rodman.
You haven't won the WS in 108 years and, except for a great closer, you have pretty much everything you need to finally win one. The best closer on the market comes available and you don't have to touch anything on your big-league roster to get him.
Total effen no-brainer.
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Sorry to get it off track everyone.
Sooooo anyways, the Padres seem to have done pretty well in trading Cashner. The Marlins are serious. They just got Gordon back, the problem for the now is that he is ineligible for the postseason roster if they make it. Always interesting seeing the Marlins make a run. When they go for it they dont take half steps.
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It's like when the Bulls got Rodman.
Except Chapman doesn't have the long track record of being a miscreant, like Rodman.
You haven't won the WS in 108 years and, except for a great closer, you have pretty much everything you need to finally win one. The best closer on the market comes available and you don't have to touch anything on your big-league roster to get him.
Total effen no-brainer.
We're talking two completely different kinds of miscreant here.
Rodman was a dirty basketball player, but to that point of his life (when the Bulls acquired him) had no serious off-court troubles. I'm not sure how he's at all comparable to a guy who was suspended 30 games for for choking a woman.
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We're talking two completely different kinds of miscreant here.
Rodman was a dirty basketball player, but to that point of his life (when the Bulls acquired him) had no serious off-court troubles. I'm not sure how he's at all comparable to a guy who was suspended 30 games for for choking a woman.
I know Rodman has been accused of sexual harassment multiple times, and I think maybe even abuse once or twice. But yes, I might have my timeline wrong. That might have happened after the Bulls got that fine pillar of the community. If that is the case, I certainly defer to your knowledge.
As for Chapman ...
He served his MLB-imposed sentence. His girlfriend has changed her account. And he has not been convicted of anything, or even charged.
Let's say two of the Cubs' future (and current) stars, say Rizzo and Bryant, get drunk after a game and are accused of abuse by a couple of women at a nightclub. MLB suspends them 30 games each, but the victims change their stories and no charges are ever filed. Are you in favor of the Cubs dumping them immediately? If not, why not? It should be the exact same thing: You don't want abusers on the team -- period.
Hey, in the end, Scoop is all about opinion. And my opinion is that the trade was a total no-brainer. You and I are, of course, allowed to have different opinions.
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I am as skeptical as anyone regarding Chapman's story and his girlfriend changing her account and not pressing charges. I've also read the police report, etc. As skeptical as I am I don't think there is enough conclusive proof to know for certain that he is or refer to him as a wife beater.
"Proof' never stopped anybody around here before.
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From day one, the family has always stayed out of baseball decisions and has stated that. I'm sure due to the situation, they were consulted. However, it still comes down to a baseball decision. It's good for the baseball team.
I think you're stretching by thinking Laura had much involvement at all with this trade.
The Ricketts (rightly) stay out of baseball decisions. But this was not only a baseball decision. The Cubs admitted as much with the "he's a better man, a repentant man and we discussed at length" statement by Ricketts and Epstein. Unfortunately for them, Chapman didn't remember the supposed conversation. Whoops.
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Manny Macahdo took advantage of some over zealous shifting today and scored from first on a groundout. That's right. A groundout. Pretty great play by a pretty great player.
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Let's say two of the Cubs' future (and current) stars, say Rizzo and Bryant, get drunk after a game and are accused of abuse by a couple of women at a nightclub. MLB suspends them 30 games each, but the victims change their stories and no charges are ever filed. Are you in favor of the Cubs dumping them immediately? If not, why not? It should be the exact same thing: You don't want abusers on the team -- period.
Hey, in the end, Scoop is all about opinion. And my opinion is that the trade was a total no-brainer. You and I are, of course, allowed to have different opinions.
You must have me mistaken for someone else. I never criticized the Cubs for making the trade, and said most fans of most teams would be acting exactly the same as most Cubs fans are about this.
But let's not try to put lipstick on a pig here by 1) Minimizing Chapman's behavior and 2) Making awful analogies to excuse him and/or the Cubs.
The Cubs traded for a possibly bad guy for the sake of winning. Period. Not a dirty player like Rodman. Not an unpleasant personality. A bad human being. And many, many Cubs fans will embrace him for the sake of winning. I say that without judgment. If admitting that makes you or any Cubs fan uncomfortable, that's on you guys.
As for Chapman not being charged and/or his victim changing her account, I suspect you're versed well enough in these matters to know that those things mean little in domestic violence cases. Victims with sad frequency change their stories, ask that charges not be filed and refuse to cooperate with police for any number of reasons. It hardly qualifies as exoneration for the perpetrator.
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Manny Macahdo took advantage of some over zealous shifting today and scored from first on a groundout. That's right. A groundout. Pretty great play by a pretty great player.
Machado's awesome.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/192484944/manny-machado-scores-from-1st-on-groundout/ (http://m.mlb.com/news/article/192484944/manny-machado-scores-from-1st-on-groundout/)
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You must have me mistaken for someone else. I never criticized the Cubs for making the trade, and said most fans of most teams would be acting exactly the same as most Cubs fans are about this.
But let's not try to put lipstick on a pig here by 1) Minimizing Chapman's behavior and 2) Making awful analogies to excuse him and/or the Cubs.
The Cubs traded for a possibly bad guy for the sake of winning. Period. Not a dirty player like Rodman. Not an unpleasant personality. A bad human being. And many, many Cubs fans will embrace him for the sake of winning. I say that without judgment. If admitting that makes you or any Cubs fan uncomfortable, that's on you guys.
As for Chapman not being charged and/or his victim changing her account, I suspect you're versed well enough in these matters to know that those things mean little in domestic violence cases. Victims with sad frequency change their stories, ask that charges not be filed and refuse to cooperate with police for any number of reasons. It hardly qualifies as exoneration for the perpetrator.
Can someone embrace the results Chapman brings without embracing the player himself? I hate what he was accused of doing and didn't love the value the team gave up to get him (although I understand it).
However, I've been a diehard fan my entire life and the meaning a World Series appearance and win would have is beyond words. He obviously would likely play a huge role in that. I can't just remove myself from the team and wanting them to win, even if he is a part of it.
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You must have me mistaken for someone else. I never criticized the Cubs for making the trade, and said most fans of most teams would be acting exactly the same as most Cubs fans are about this.
But let's not try to put lipstick on a pig here by 1) Minimizing Chapman's behavior and 2) Making awful analogies to excuse him and/or the Cubs.
The Cubs traded for a possibly bad guy for the sake of winning. Period. Not a dirty player like Rodman. Not an unpleasant personality. A bad human being. And many, many Cubs fans will embrace him for the sake of winning. I say that without judgment. If admitting that makes you or any Cubs fan uncomfortable, that's on you guys.
As for Chapman not being charged and/or his victim changing her account, I suspect you're versed well enough in these matters to know that those things mean little in domestic violence cases. Victims with sad frequency change their stories, ask that charges not be filed and refuse to cooperate with police for any number of reasons. It hardly qualifies as exoneration for the perpetrator.
And you must have me confused with a Cubs fan who gives a rat's rump whether they win or not.
And yes, I am well aware that victims change their stories for any number of reasons, and that it does not exonerate the perpetrator.
We do not know that Chapman is a "bad guy." Does he have a history of abusing women or was this an isolated incident? (I honestly don't know.) Is anybody who has one isolated incident, gets punished, serves the punishment and then never repeats the act automatically a "bad human being" forever and ever and ever?
No lipstick on a pig from this objective observer. The Cubs traded for the best closer in baseball and didn't have to give up a single piece of this year's team or next year's team to get him. It was a baseball move. The guy's not an ax murderer, so Theo thought it was OK to get Chapman.
I actually think we are 99% in agreement on all of this.
Now, if in the future Theo passes on a player with a similarly checkered past or even moreso if he criticizes another GM for signing a similar player, that's another story. The story of hypocrisy.
The Cubs have a much better chance to win the World Series today than they did two weeks ago. And yes, it's perfectly OK for Cubbie fans to celebrate after Chapman gets the last out and even to cheer him at Grant Park.
All IMHO, of course.
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Lucroy to Cleveland. Details emerging. Hr needs to waive his no trade.
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Lucroy to Cleveland. Details emerging. Hr needs to waive his no trade.
May be falling apart after Indians get Andrew Miller.
Indians v. Red Sox
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Lucroy rejected the trade. Cards acquired Duke from the Sox.
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Lucroy made right decision. Splitting the catching duties or playing 1B in Cleveland next year wouldl diminish his value. Too bad Stearns needs to turn to Plan B. It might not be a trade worth doing.
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Wanted the Indians to pass up on next year's option AND a guarantee of playing catcher in the future. So much for the "I just want to be on a winning team" narrative he told us so much about over the past 6 months.
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Wanted the Indians to pass up on next year's option AND a guarantee of playing catcher in the future. So much for the "I just want to be on a winning team" narrative he told us so much about over the past 6 months.
Nah, he's protecting his worth. His value plummets not catching full time.
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Wanted the Indians to pass up on next year's option AND a guarantee of playing catcher in the future. So much for the "I just want to be on a winning team" narrative he told us so much about over the past 6 months.
The Brewers gave him the no trade protection. Nothing to complain about.
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Rangers talking to Brewers about Lucroy. Since Texas is not on his no trade list, Lucroy cannot block a trade there.
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Wanted the Indians to pass up on next year's option AND a guarantee of playing catcher in the future. So much for the "I just want to be on a winning team" narrative he told us so much about over the past 6 months.
While true, a reasonable position for Luc to take with a big payday coming in 15 months.
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Never said he didn't have the right to do it and that the Brewers didn't give him that power. Doesn't mean his cute narrative about just wanting to play baseball for a team competing in October wasn't completely false. If it were true he'd be catching for the Cleveland Indians today. He's not because it's all about Luc, not all about winning.
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Never said he didn't have the right to do it and that the Brewers didn't give him that power. Doesn't mean his cute narrative about just wanting to play baseball for a team competing in October wasn't completely false. If it were true he'd be catching for the Cleveland Indians today. He's not because it's all about Luc, not all about winning.
Yes wades. Players oftentimes aren't entirely truthful when giving interviews about their motivations. Thanks for unearthing that nugget of information.
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Yes wades. Players oftentimes aren't entirely truthful when giving interviews about their motivations. Thanks for unearthing that nugget of information.
Didn't know this was a revolutionary "inearthing" of "that nugget of information." You are very welcome, sultan. Glad to be of assistance.
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Nah, he's protecting his worth. His value plummets not catching full time.
While true, a reasonable position for Luc to take with a big payday coming in 15 months.
If he can't win the starting catching job over Yan Gomes then he's probably not in for a big payday anyways.
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If he can't win the starting catching job over Yan Gomes then he's probably not in for a big payday anyways.
That's not the point. He can "win the starting job" over Gomes easily if this were a binary option. However if the Indians want to stick with Gomes at C, and then use Lucroy at either 1B or DH, it lessens his value.
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Wanted the Indians to pass up on next year's option AND a guarantee of playing catcher in the future. So much for the "I just want to be on a winning team" narrative he told us so much about over the past 6 months.
It sounded like the main issue was they weren't willing to guarantee him playing time at catcher in 2017. With him coming up on free agency that could certainly hurt his value. If that is the case I completely understand the decision he made.
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http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/there-are-no-villains-in-the-jonathan-lucroy-story/ (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/there-are-no-villains-in-the-jonathan-lucroy-story/)
Everyone involved is acting in their own best interests. No need to get mad at anyone.
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It sounded like the main issue was they weren't willing to guarantee him playing time at catcher in 2017. With him coming up on free agency that could certainly hurt his value. If that is the case I completely understand the decision he made.
I understand it would hurt his value in free agency if he isn't catching. But no club in the world is going to guarantee you're playing a certain position in a certain role 8 months away from that season. Jonathan Lucroy should have absolutely no worries about Yan Gomes catching over him if that's the position he wants to play. The Indians aren't going to play a worse player (and Gomes is far and away that) at a far more important position just because he had that spot before an injury.
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Never said he didn't have the right to do it and that the Brewers didn't give him that power. Doesn't mean his cute narrative about just wanting to play baseball for a team competing in October wasn't completely false. If it were true he'd be catching for the Cleveland Indians today. He's not because it's all about Luc, not all about winning.
That's a lot of hate there wades. Sure Lucroy would like to have a chance at a ring. He simply decided that the personal sacrifice in going to CLE wasn't in his best interest right now. Pretty simple the way I see it. Moreover, I think he's been very open and honest with Brewers management and fans. It's all good.
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I understand it would hurt his value in free agency if he isn't catching. But no club in the world is going to guarantee you're playing a certain position in a certain role 8 months away from that season. Jonathan Lucroy should have absolutely no worries about Yan Gomes catching over him if that's the position he wants to play. The Indians aren't going to play a worse player (and Gomes is far and away that) at a far more important position just because he had that spot before an injury.
But with another #1 catcher on the roster Luc could reasonably assume that he won't catch 130 games in CLE and would have to play his share of first and DH. He simply decided that situation wasn't in his best interest. In his mind he is better off staying in MKE. Simple as that.
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I understand it would hurt his value in free agency if he isn't catching. But no club in the world is going to guarantee you're playing a certain position in a certain role 8 months away from that season. Jonathan Lucroy should have absolutely no worries about Yan Gomes catching over him if that's the position he wants to play. The Indians aren't going to play a worse player (and Gomes is far and away that) at a far more important position just because he had that spot before an injury.
Whether he is a better catcher than Gomes or not is irrelevant. The Indians would rather use Lucroy at 1B or DH for $5 million than finding someone in free agency. Napoli's contract is up after the year and Carlos Santana has a $12 million team option for 2017 (with a $1.2 million buyout.) It would have been cheapest for them to have Lucroy and Gomes both in the lineup.
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I understand it would hurt his value in free agency if he isn't catching. But no club in the world is going to guarantee you're playing a certain position in a certain role 8 months away from that season. Jonathan Lucroy should have absolutely no worries about Yan Gomes catching over him if that's the position he wants to play. The Indians aren't going to play a worse player (and Gomes is far and away that) at a far more important position just because he had that spot before an injury.
You are acting as if this is like a quarterback on a football team. It isn't. Lucroy has skills that transfer to other positions. Quarterbacks don't. They either play quarterback or they sit.
The Indians could very well determine, that although Lucroy is a better catcher, that the team is better with Gomes catching and Lucroy at first.
And really why are you so strident about this? Who cares what he said earlier this year? People say things but change their mind over time. Lucroy has been good for the Brewers.
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I'm sensing that Luc might be staying put until the winter meetings. This is a big moment for the young GM.
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The market for relievers is through the roof.
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Not impressed.
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Not impressed.
With?
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In keeping with tradition, Sox management sitting around with thumbs firmly up asses
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Cubs' newest reliever.
(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/51816349-joe-smith-of-the-milwaukee-bucks-shoots-a-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=ZcCR4Dv%2Fr8JFk5iSdFFMZ9R0y4r0h58A%2FPQ3ovVm8NJyjx2xMfTiRT8cC5bzf%2B0e2TgXYz6XgH2dki%2FLQ4SI%2FRXW%2Fr7WCDwMe33gteCZTx4%3D)
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I can't believe the Brewers had the nerve to ask for Bickford for Smith, much less get both him and Susac. Brewers didn't do as well as the Yankees, but they seem to have done really well with these two as well as Brinson and Ortiz.
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Do the Brewers have good catching prospects in their system somewhere?
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Do the Brewers have good catching prospects in their system somewhere?
They do now. Susac was a top 100 prospect prior to an injury-plagued 2015. He's had a solid bounce back year so far.
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In keeping with tradition, Sox management sitting around with thumbs firmly up asses
So they really did nothing? Makes absolutely no sense to me (I'm a Cubs fan).
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So they really did nothing? Makes absolutely no sense to me (I'm a Cubs fan).
We know. ;)
It seems to make no sense. Also the Pirates deadline seemed to make no sense. With the.possible impact prospects that changes teams for relievers, it is crazy that Robertson is still on this team.
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It only makes sense if Hahn thinks that Sale will be worth more in the offseason. Meaning a contender will throw in major current roster pieces.
I think what it really means is they want to rebuild, but they Jerry won't let them tank it completely. They have to quasi-rebuild, which is why Puig was getting thrown around.
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I thought the Brewers totally stole talent from the Giants for a pitcher sporting a knee brace. The Lucroy/Jeffress trade, somebody help me out there. Not saying that they should have hung onto Luc but did they get enough?
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I thought the Brewers totally stole talent from the Giants for a pitcher sporting a knee brace. The Lucroy/Jeffress trade, somebody help me out there. Not saying that they should have hung onto Luc but did they get enough?
I'm not a Brewers fan, but in acquiring one elite prospect and another solid prospect (probably Top 5 in Brewers system) I would say they got a nice return.
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Detroit stood pat. Two reasons: First, their farm system is so weak that there is very little that anybody wanted and Detroit was unwilling to part with the few quality pieces they have. Second, with Zimmerman, JD Martinez, and Norris all returning in the next few days, they will have upgraded their pitching and added a bat.
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I'm not a Brewers fan, but in acquiring one elite prospect and another solid prospect (probably Top 5 in Brewers system) I would say they got a nice return.
I see that now. Both Top 65 national prospects with Brinson listed right behind Arcia. And I like the move for Susac. I see that they assigned him to AAA but I'll bet he's the #1 next Spring. He had been a Top 100 guy before getting too many major league games. As I said to my son today, Lucroy was at his peak value right now. Winning 3 extra games in August/September means little.
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I see that now. Both Top 65 national prospects with Brinson listed right behind Arcia. And I like the move for Susac. I see that they assigned him to AAA but I'll bet he's the #1 next Spring. He had been a Top 100 guy before getting too many major league games. As I said to my son today, Lucroy was at his peak value right now. Winning 3 extra games in August/September means little.
Disagree, his peak value was this past offseason.
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Brewers should also get a solid A ball prospect as the PTBNL in the Lucory/Jefress deal.
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Disagree, his peak value was this past offseason.
I don't know. He had a bad season last year. This first half erased any of those memories and doubts that may have arisen.
And Susac was top 100 each of the last 2 years I believe.
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Brewers should also get a solid A ball prospect as the PTBNL in the Lucory/Jefress deal.
Yeah, they definitely should. As it stands they didn't get anywhere near enough for one of the top 5 catchers in the game on an incredibly friendly contract for another year after this and a really strong closer with 3 more years of club control. As it is, they might've gotten more for Will Smith than they did for Lucroy and Jefress. Ortiz should turn out to be solid. Brinson is boom or bust, and so far bust. Sub-.300 OBP this year? Yikes.
I highly doubt it'll be Ragans, but he's the type of player that would actually make the deal reasonable. And a team has to have a player for a certain amount of time before he can be traded, so a man can dream that that's the PTBNL.
Would be hilarious if the Indians beat the Rangers in the Playoffs.
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I thought the Brewers totally stole talent from the Giants for a pitcher sporting a knee brace. The Lucroy/Jeffress trade, somebody help me out there. Not saying that they should have hung onto Luc but did they get enough?
We swindled the Giants, which was partially why it was so disappointing for us to package Jeffress - who has been better and healthier this year - with Luc. Relievers were flying off the shelves and we gave our closer away. Beyond not getting Gallo, I'm down on this trade because I don't have a lot of faith in Brinson. Honestly, watching him, he reminds me of Carlos Gomez. Both sides of Carlos Gomez: the 5 tool All Star, and the one currently bating .215 in Houston. So maybe he'll be good when we get fed up and trade him away.
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Disagree, his peak value was this past offseason.
Probably right, but apparently Stearns didn't get what he wanted. That's why July 31 deals often have inflated prices. Look at the market for relievers. Crazy what the Giants gave for one.
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And now the Brewers are starting Arcia's clock when they could just wait until September...why, exactly?
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Gettin' rid of yo closer means nothin' when ya got no games ta close, ai na?
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And now the Brewers are starting Arcia's clock when they could just wait until September...why, exactly?
Here's my theory. Tickets and merch. Mark A. wants to give folks some reason to come out to the ballpark. Plus 200 ABs will certainly ease his transition into the permanent role next season during a 'low pressure' environment.
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Here's my theory. Tickets and merch. Mark A. wants to give folks some reason to come out to the ballpark. Plus 200 ABs will certainly ease his transition into the permanent role next season during a 'low pressure' environment.
You're probably right...which is everything that's wrong with the Milwaukee Brewers.
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You're probably right...which is everything that's wrong with the Milwaukee Brewers.
Not sure I get your point. Is there something magic about an extra 30 days of service here in August? Does it change his FA category somehow?
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Here's my theory. Tickets and merch. Mark A. wants to give folks some reason to come out to the ballpark. Plus 200 ABs will certainly ease his transition into the permanent role next season during a 'low pressure' environment.
It's probably more the latter, honestly. Not sure Arcia is going to get the casual fan fired up in the way that a Braun or Fielder (big league power) did. It's also a trial run on Villar at third and what our lineup looks like with two players that hit like shortstops there, since Villar doesn't have prototypical 3rd base power. I don't agree with starting the clock on Arcia when we don't need to, but I'll say this - this team is going to (continue to) steal like crazy. Villar, Perez, Arcia and to a lesser extent, Braun are all legitimate base stealing threats. So that should be fun.
Edit: Thinking about this, will this actually impact his options? He's been on the 40-man roster and in the minors all year, so one of his options will have already been used. He's not going to get an accrued season because it's only 60ish days left in the season. Baseball rules are confusing :o
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Not sure I get your point. Is there something magic about an extra 30 days of service here in August? Does it change his FA category somehow?
Yes. Unless they start him back in the minors for a certain amount of time next season the Brewers will not gain an extra year of control of him before he hits free agency (unless that aspect of the CBA ends up being modified).
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They were going to bring Arcia up in September, so really there is no impact on his clock. Plus Arcia may not be as good as many are proposing, he's been weak with the bat this year. There may be more to worry about than his clock.
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It's probably more the latter, honestly. Not sure Arcia is going to get the casual fan fired up in the way that a Braun or Fielder (big league power) did. It's also a trial run on Villar at third and what our lineup looks like with two players that hit like shortstops there, since Villar doesn't have prototypical 3rd base power. I don't agree with starting the clock on Arcia when we don't need to, but I'll say this - this team is going to (continue to) steal like crazy. Villar, Perez, Arcia and to a lesser extent, Braun are all legitimate base stealing threats. So that should be fun.
Edit: Thinking about this, will this actually impact his options? He's been on the 40-man roster and in the minors all year, so one of his options will have already been used. He's not going to get an accrued season because it's only 60ish days left in the season. Baseball rules are confusing :o
I refreshed my memory on 'service time'. He's already on the 40 man and won't be optioned down this year. He has zero chance to accrue a year of service. The Brewers could have pulled a Bryant/Braun and called him up in May 2017 once his first service year proved impossible NEXT year. But I think Mark A. and Sterns thought he was ready now and want a 60 day window to evaluate a Scooter/Arcia/Villar infield possibly with the intention of moving either Scooter or Villar. Personally, I think Villar is a real potential talent and I'd like to see him at 2B long term. That said, Scooter has shown some ability to hit lefties this year. TBD, I suppose.
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Okay, SUPER technical question. Arcia gets 60 days service this year = no full year. Arcia then gets 'optioned' for a minimum 21 days next year so retroactive service time doesn't accrue and he has less than a full year of service in 2017. Where does that leave him?
PS. Totally agree we're not discussing Mickey Mantle here. I'm not overly worried about his superstar status just yet. Lots to prove.
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I refreshed my memory on 'service time'. He's already on the 40 man and won't be optioned down this year. He has zero chance to accrue a year of service. The Brewers could have pulled a Bryant/Braun and called him up in May 2017 once his first service year proved impossible NEXT year. But I think Mark A. and Sterns thought he was ready now and want a 60 day window to evaluate a Scooter/Arcia/Villar infield possibly with the intention of moving either Scooter or Villar. Personally, I think Villar is a real potential talent and I'd like to see him at 2B long term. That said, Scooter has shown some ability to hit lefties this year. TBD, I suppose.
Completely agree. I hope Scooter continues to show the improvement to be more than a platoon player. I worry about power in our projected lineup next year, though, which a Villar-Arcia-Scooter-TBD infield is problematic. That leaves Braun, Santana and 1B TBD to be our only power players. Not that we need to be built that way - it doesn't seem to be the identity Stearns is building in our farm system, but with a hitter-friendly park, it'd be good to capitalize. We don't have much in the way of corner depth in our system, but we sure are loaded at SS/2B and OF...
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Like both trades. Having 7 of the top 74 prospects a year into a re-build isn't half bad. Quality over quantity for the Rangers trade. Brinson has been dealing with injuries, and has just started to get back into form over the past couple weeks. He's just 22, Ortiz 20, Bickford 21. A lot of potential there, versus Melvin's usual request for "Major League-ready talent", that was essentially asking for 26 year old AAAA players with low ceilings. Not a salary dump move and sounds like an option on the PTBNL, so thinking it's probably above scrub level.
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Word is we might get Mendez or Guzman as the PTBNL. The PTBNL won't be unveiled until after the minor league season so we have more time to scout the options. If it's Mendez or Guzman the Lucroy/Jeffress trade would be tremendous for Brewers.
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Brinson is a boom or bust guy. Has trouble with pitch recognition. May be a Rickie Weeks or a total stud.
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Okay, SUPER technical question. Arcia gets 60 days service this year = no full year. Arcia then gets 'optioned' for a minimum 21 days next year so retroactive service time doesn't accrue and he has less than a full year of service in 2017. Where does that leave him?
PS. Totally agree we're not discussing Mickey Mantle here. I'm not overly worried about his superstar status just yet. Lots to prove.
We probably aren't talking about his options at that point unless there is substantial doubt on whether he is ready for the bigs.
Not an expert at this by any means, but I think it depends on what happens the following year - assuming he plays the full year on the MLB roster, which is safe. That (by a non expert's calculation) would leave him with about 2.1 ish years of service (1 year in '18, 151 days in '17, 60 days in '16). That's likely not enough for Super 2, so he'd be a standard 3 year player before hitting arbitration. In which case, no harm no foul. However, if he begins next year as an every day player, he very well might qualify, in which case arbitration would kick in after '18. So there is some risk to this strategy of calling him up now.
The sensible thing to do if we think he is a superstar is to start him in the minors next year and burn some of those service days at the beginning of the year (the Kris Bryant strategy) to lock in an extra year of control. We could then call him up in late April/early May and be good to go.
Cart before horse, though - let's see if the kid can play.
Like both trades. Having 7 of the top 74 prospects a year into a re-build isn't half bad. Quality over quantity for the Rangers trade. Brinson has been dealing with injuries, and has just started to get back into form over the past couple weeks. He's just 22, Ortiz 20, Bickford 21. A lot of potential there, versus Melvin's usual request for "Major League-ready talent", that was essentially asking for 26 year old AAAA players with low ceilings. Not a salary dump move and sounds like an option on the PTBNL, so thinking it's probably above scrub level.
Hope so, because right now, I look at this essentially a 2-for-2 trade. Ortiz and Bickford are similar talents, as are Smith and Jeffress, so that's one half the equation. That means it's Luc for Brinson + PTBNL, which is a lot given Brinson's boom-or-bust potential.
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Word is we might get Mendez or Guzman as the PTBNL. The PTBNL won't be unveiled until after the minor league season so we have more time to scout the options. If it's Mendez or Guzman the Lucroy/Jeffress trade would be tremendous for Brewers.
That would be a huge haul, and far from your typical PTBNL. Mendez is probably the better prospect, but Guzman is a specimen at first.
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We probably aren't talking about his options at that point unless there is substantial doubt on whether he is ready for the bigs.
Not an expert at this by any means, but I think it depends on what happens the following year - assuming he plays the full year on the MLB roster, which is safe. That (by a non expert's calculation) would leave him with about 2.1 ish years of service (1 year in '18, 151 days in '17, 60 days in '16). That's likely not enough for Super 2, so he'd be a standard 3 year player before hitting arbitration. In which case, no harm no foul. However, if he begins next year as an every day player, he very well might qualify, in which case arbitration would kick in after '18. So there is some risk to this strategy of calling him up now.
The sensible thing to do if we think he is a superstar is to start him in the minors next year and burn some of those service days at the beginning of the year (the Kris Bryant strategy) to lock in an extra year of control. We could then call him up in late April/early May and be good to go.
Cart before horse, though - let's see if the kid can play.
Hope so, because right now, I look at this essentially a 2-for-2 trade. Ortiz and Bickford are similar talents, as are Smith and Jeffress, so that's one half the equation. That means it's Luc for Brinson + PTBNL, which is a lot given Brinson's boom-or-bust potential.
It might make him a Super 2 but it won't change his years under control correct? As I understand it, it only means arby kicks in one year earlier.
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It might make him a Super 2 but it won't change his years under control correct? As I understand it, it only means arby kicks in one year earlier.
Correct - it would just drive up the cost more quickly than expected. Still 6 years of control
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The Super 2 "deadline" likely passed in mid-June.
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Hey Tower, what would it take for Detroit to take Dombrowski back? It is getting tiresome watching the guys he gave up prospects for to "bolster" our pennant run this year blow game after game.
Brad Zeigler 0-2 with blown save already.
Drew Pomeranz 0-2 with a 7.53 ERA after 3 starts
Fernando Abad 0-1 with a blown save and a loss after one appearance.
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That well was poisoned last year. Ilitch wanted to buy, Dombrowski decided to sell. Relationship ruptured.
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Fielder's career over due to neck injury. Wow.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2016/08/09/report-prince-fielders-career-over/88474706/
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Fielder's career over due to neck injury. Wow.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2016/08/09/report-prince-fielders-career-over/88474706/
Fun player to watch. It's unfortunate that his career is being cut short, but I can't feel too sorry for him since he's still getting the $96M remaining on his contract.
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Fun player to watch. It's unfortunate that his career is being cut short, but I can't feel too sorry for him since he's still getting the $96M remaining on his contract.
Fun? He was a fat, slow, one-dimensional hitter who never thought he needed to learn to play defense.
He is the coverboy for the type of "athlete" that I hate to watch play.
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He was not a "one dimensional hitter." Top 70 all time OPS.
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He was not a "one dimensional hitter." Top 70 all time OPS.
Lots of HRs, lots of 2b, lots of BB, lots of Ks.
That said, his OPS doesn't exclude him from certain company. His most similar player (according to BBref) is Mo Vaughn. He was certainly a better hitter than an Adam Dunn type, though fairly similar (Actually I just added their walks and total bases (for a 162 average) and Dunn averaged 380 bases, Prince was 381 -- doesn't really mean anything, interesting though).
I wouldn't quite call him one dimensional. He hit over .300 a couple times and was a career .283 hitter. He never hit below .261 in a full season. He had more of the "hit tool" than guys that are one dimensional. In my estimation he was a power hitter that was also a pretty darn good hitter.
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Lots of HRs, lots of 2b, lots of BB, lots of Ks.
That said, his OPS doesn't exclude him from certain company. His most similar player (according to BBref) is Mo Vaughn. He was certainly a better hitter than an Adam Dunn type, though fairly similar (Actually I just added their walks and total bases (for a 162 average) and Dunn averaged 380 bases, Prince was 381 -- doesn't really mean anything, interesting though).
I wouldn't quite call him one dimensional. He hit over .300 a couple times and was a career .283 hitter. He never hit below .261 in a full season. He had more of the "hit tool" than guys that are one dimensional. In my estimation he was a power hitter that was also a pretty darn good hitter.
I'm down with that.
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Fun? He was a fat, slow, one-dimensional hitter who never thought he needed to learn to play defense.
He is the coverboy for the type of "athlete" that I hate to watch play.
Yeesh. Apparently Prince refused to sign an autograph for you or something.
As a one-dimensional hitter, it's surprising that he had more career doubles than HRs, a career .283 average, a career .382 OBP, led the league in walks once (drawing over 100 three different times) and holds 6 different Brewers' records. Maybe you consider "being a solid, patient hitter" to be one dimension.
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Yeesh. Apparently Prince refused to sign an autograph for you or something.
As a one-dimensional hitter, it's surprising that he had more career doubles than HRs, a career .283 average, a career .382 OBP, led the league in walks once (drawing over 100 three different times) and holds 6 different Brewers' records. Maybe you consider "being a solid, patient hitter" to be one dimension.
More like refused to resign with the Brewers...
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If Prince Fielder wasn't fun to watch I'm not sure how many baseball players there are out there that would be considered fun to watch. Trout, Puig for how dumb he is and his athleticism/arm, Harper, and...? Not sure. Maybe Bautista, Donaldson, Cespedes, Machado, Bryant, Schwarber, Rizzo, Altuve, Bogaerts, Betts... Can't think of any Brewer in my lifetime (at least that I was old enough to remember) that was more fun to watch.
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If Prince Fielder wasn't fun to watch I'm not sure how many baseball players there are out there that would be considered fun to watch. Trout, Puig for how dumb he is and his athleticism/arm, Harper, and...? Not sure. Maybe Bautista, Donaldson, Cespedes, Machado, Bryant, Schwarber, Rizzo, Altuve, Bogaerts, Betts... Can't think of any Brewer in my lifetime (at least that I was old enough to remember) that was more fun to watch.
Ortiz is the same type hitter as Fielder, and he is fun to watch hit for sure. But I enjoy watching guys like Pedroia, Ichiro and Altuve who play like their life depended on the outcome of the game. Watching Ortiz jog to first on a double play groundball is not particularly fun. Not a lot of guys who hustle all the time anymore. I am amazed at how often guys turns doubles into singles because they don't run hard out of the box.
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Ortiz is the same type hitter as Fielder, and he is fun to watch hit for sure. But I enjoy watching guys like Pedroia, Ichiro and Altuve who play like their life depended on the outcome of the game. Watching Ortiz jog to first on a double play groundball is not particularly fun. Not a lot of guys who hustle all the time anymore. I am amazed at how often guys turns doubles into singles because they don't run hard out of the box.
Watching Prince run down the 1st base line was a sight to be seen. He always played (and ran) hard, at least when he was in Milwaukee.
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Ortiz is the same type hitter as Fielder, and he is fun to watch hit for sure. But I enjoy watching guys like Pedroia, Ichiro and Altuve who play like their life depended on the outcome of the game. Watching Ortiz jog to first on a double play groundball is not particularly fun. Not a lot of guys who hustle all the time anymore. I am amazed at how often guys turns doubles into singles because they don't run hard out of the box.
Ortiz is not nearly as "natural" as Prince though.
Off topic: I find it interesting that A-Rod was "caught" using PEDs, admitted it and he's now a "disgrace to the game"...no doubt in part due to his phony, narcissistic personality. On the other hand, Ortiz is a cheater who was also "caught" but he's gone with the deny, deny, deny strategy (as ARod did originally) but he's the lovable, gregarious Big Papi so he's currently being honored across the league with a farewell tour.
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Ortiz is not nearly as "natural" as Prince though.
Off topic: I find it interesting that A-Rod was "caught" using PEDs, admitted it and he's now a "disgrace to the game"...no doubt in part due to his phony, narcissistic personality. On the other hand, Ortiz is a cheater who was also "caught" but he's gone with the deny, deny, deny strategy (as ARod did originally) but he's the lovable, gregarious Big Papi so he's currently being honored across the league with a farewell tour.
Ortiz hasn't gone deny, deny, deny. If I remember correctly, he said back in 2003 that whatever they found was likely from supplements he bought over the counter in the DR (which really didn't make it illegal under baseball's old rules, which basically was not to use illegal product without specifying anything in particular, so you could nitpick that if he bought it over the counter it wasn't illegal). Maybe not true, but at least a reasonable explanation. And no evidence or positive tests since.
I do agree with your larger point that those most vilified were the guys people didn't like much in the first place (Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod) and those who vociferously denied and were later caught (A-Rod again, Palmeiro). Guys like Ortiz and Pettitte who are generally well-liked seemed to get more of a pass. I think most people thought Piazza was taking stuff, as you read stories in print about his back acne, etc., but that seemed to pass as he is now in the HOF.
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How weird is this Tommy La Stella situations though
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How weird is this Tommy La Stella situations though
Its weird.
Coughlan is out of options, that's why he had to be on the 25. I have no doubt La Stella would have been back with the club in September, with a good chance of being on the playoff roster. I get that he is upset, but he's missing the bigger picture.
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Its weird.
Coughlan is out of options, that's why he had to be on the 25. I have no doubt La Stella would have been back with the club in September, with a good chance of being on the playoff roster. I get that he is upset, but he's missing the bigger picture.
From what I've heard, LaStella is a bit of an odd guy. He's also only 27 and in his third MLB season. I could see if he was an established 30+yo veteran and didn't take the demotion well but, quite frankly, he's a no-name.
That said, one could argue that Coghlan should be DFA'd. He's struggling at the plate and isn't exactly a strong defender. The Cubs also have 5 OFs on the roster, along with Bryant, Zobrist and Contreras all of whom can play the OF.
I don't blame La Stella for being upset, but he's not handling the situation very well at all.
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It was just pointed out to me that both Prince and Cecil Fielder hit the same number of dingers. Crazy.
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It was just pointed out to me that both Prince and Cecil Fielder hit the same number of dingers. Crazy.
Not impressed. My dad and I both hit the exact same number of HRs in the majors.
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Not impressed. My dad and I both hit the exact same number of HRs in the majors.
Winner.
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Not impressed. My dad and I both hit the exact same number of HRs in the majors.
Mike and Greg Maddux combined for 4 Cy Young Awards
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Mike and Greg Maddux combined for 4 Cy Young Awards
Tommie and Hank Aaron hit the most career HRs by brothers with 768.
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Dom, Vince and Joe DiMaggio have the longest hit-streak among brothers at 56.
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Zimmerman, Pelphrey, Iglesias, Castellanos, Maybin all on the DL. Tigers going with a 9 man bullpen. Ye, gods. If this isn't the start of the death spiral, I will be impressed.
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After pitching the top of the 9th, Cubs played Prodigy's "Smack My Bitch Up" as Chapman walked off the mound.
I'm going to guess there will be a job opening tomorrow morning.
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Definitely belongs in the 'how can you possibly be that bleepin stupid' file.
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After pitching the top of the 9th, Cubs played Prodigy's "Smack My Bitch Up" as Chapman walked off the mound.
I'm going to guess there will be a job opening tomorrow morning.
If true, just an incredibly stupid decision.
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If true, just an incredibly stupid decision.
It was true. The guy was fired.
http://deadspin.com/cubs-apologize-for-playing-smack-my-bitch-up-as-arold-1785297246?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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It was a terrible decision. That said, I think I've heard that song at every one of the 8-10 games I've been to at Wrigley this year.
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It was true. The guy was fired.
http://deadspin.com/cubs-apologize-for-playing-smack-my-bitch-up-as-arold-1785297246?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Trading for a guy who beats women = ok
Pointing it out in game= you're fired.
Ok Cubs.
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Trading for a guy who beats women = ok
Pointing it out in game= you're fired.
Ok Cubs.
I think it's less pointing it out, and more making light of it.
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Trading for a guy who beats women = ok
Pointing it out in game= you're fired.
Ok Cubs.
::)
So, aside from inaccuracy of your first point, the Cubs should have not taken action against an employee for such an idiotic decision with domestic violence implications? The team makes one questionable decision so they should ignore this particular issue?
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Trading for a guy who beats women = ok
Pointing it out in game= you're fired.
Ok Cubs.
Trade for the guy who "smacks my bitch up" = a big raise and likely executive of the year honors.
Play a song apropos for the guy who "smacks his bitch up" = feigned outrage from the same executive (and the rest of the organization) and a pink slip.
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Sure there's hypocrisy, but ballpark DJs are a dime a dozen. A closer who throws 103 is not.
Fair or unfair, that's the way the world works. If the Cubs believed that the DJ was going to be an integral part of winning the World Series, he'd still be employed.
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Sure there's hypocrisy, but ballpark DJs are a dime a dozen. A closer who throws 103 is not.
Fair or unfair, that's the way the world works. If the Cubs believed that the DJ was going to be an integral part of winning the World Series, he'd still be employed.
Truth
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Sure there's hypocrisy, but ballpark DJs are a dime a dozen. A closer who throws 103 is not.
Fair or unfair, that's the way the world works. If the Cubs believed that the DJ was going to be an integral part of winning the World Series, he'd still be employed.
This is true. Although player personnel falls under Epstein and DJ firing falls under Kenney.
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This is true. Although player personnel falls under Epstein and DJ firing falls under Kenney.
I see your point, but Kenney and the Ricketts family had to sign-off on the Chapman acquisition.
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Trade for the guy who "smacks my bitch up" = a big raise and likely executive of the year honors.
Play a song apropos for the guy who "smacks his bitch up" = feigned outrage from the same executive (and the rest of the organization) and a pink slip.
Hey Lennie, are we surprised by this ?-(
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It happens everywhere, like it or not, perceived value determines punishment or lack thereof. If your company has a talented newly promoted VP who comes to work drunk, he's likely reprimanded, sent to rehab, worked out a solution. If thats a random newly hired young account exec or intern, they are most likely getting canned. It is what it is.
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http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20160816&content_id=195792446&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb
Here is kind of thr opposite.
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Hey Lennie, are we surprised by this ?-(
Not even a little.
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Zimmerman, Pelphrey, Iglesias, Castellanos, Maybin all on the DL. Tigers going with a 9 man bullpen. Ye, gods. If this isn't the start of the death spiral, I will be impressed.
And now...... Cabrera out for a few games with a trained left tricep. Too many simultaneous injuries to overcome this late in the season.
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I see your point, but Kenney and the Ricketts family had to sign-off on the Chapman acquisition.
No way Kenney had to sign off on Chapman. Theo runs the baseball side and Kenney runs the business side. They don't sign off on each others moves.
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Addison Russell post All-Star break:
.283/.352/.543/.895 with 8 HRs and 31 RBIs (I know RBIs are a function of opportunity but that's still impressive).
Sample size caveats apply but combined with his defense he may be on the way to becoming a star at 22.
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Addison Russell post All-Star break:
(I know RBIs are a function of opportunity but that's still impressive).
I think this gets overblown. RBIs are a product of being a good hitter. And being a good hitter in the right situation. Some guys fail due to pressure, some are better due to pressure.
Ozzie Smith had over 250 more ABs with RISP than Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio had over 300 more RBI in the 250 fewer attempts he had with RISP.
Those were the first 2 guys I checked. I am sure there are hundreds more examples.
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I think this gets overblown. RBIs are a product of being a good hitter. And being a good hitter in the right situation. Some guys fail due to pressure, some are better due to pressure.
Ozzie Smith had over 250 more ABs with RISP than Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio had over 300 more RBI in the 250 fewer attempts he had with RISP.
Those were the first 2 guys I checked. I am sure there are hundreds more examples.
I'm sure Joe DiMaggio was also a much better hitter than Ozzie Smith without RISP too - he was simply a much better hitter.
I'm not sure whether some guys are BETTER hitters under pressure or just immune to pressure. Given that so many choke under the bright lights it just may seem that way in comparison.
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Advanced stats people think that "clutch hitting" is almost entirely due to just being a good hitter. And secondly due to luck. And that that amount of hitters that truly are significantly statistically better are very few - something like 1% of everyone who played the game.
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Advanced stats people think that "clutch hitting" is almost entirely due to just being a good hitter. And secondly due to luck. And that that amount of hitters that truly are significantly statistically better are very few - something like 1% of everyone who played the game.
How about the "choke factor"? Do they acknowledge it and, if so, how do they quantify it?
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I think this gets overblown. RBIs are a product of being a good hitter. And being a good hitter in the right situation. Some guys fail due to pressure, some are better due to pressure.
Ozzie Smith had over 250 more ABs with RISP than Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio had over 300 more RBI in the 250 fewer attempts he had with RISP.
Those were the first 2 guys I checked. I am sure there are hundreds more examples.
I get your point but I still think they are also definitely a function of opportunity. Now that he has moved up in the lineup and is hitting behind 4 guys with .380 OBPs or better, he is simply going to see more of an opportunity to drive in runs. It also helps that he is hitting well lately but if he was still batting 7th or 8th he wouldn't drive in as many runs.
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How about the "choke factor"? Do they acknowledge it and, if so, how do they quantify it?
When Mike Greenwell played for the Red Sox, he was a fantastic hitter. But I used to hate to see him come up in a big spot because he ALWAYS swung at the first pitch in late and close situations and usually made weak contact because the pitchers knew it and he wasn't given good pitches to hit.
Statisticians are starting to come around to the idea that there may indeed be guys who are "clutch" hitters. Just because it is difficult to parse out the data doesn't mean that the phenomenon does not exist. People tend to hit for a higher average with men on base for several reasons (pitcher pitching out of the stretch instead of the wind up, fielders not in ideal defensive positions to keep the runners closer to the bags, sacrifice flies are not outs on your AVG, etc).
Anyway, the definition of a clutch situation is different for everybody. It seems to me that patient hitters with a good command of the strike zone are the best guys to have up in big situations. Ortiz has been as clutch as anybody in big spots and it seems that he rarely chases bad balls when the game is on the line. He more likely to get called out on a borderline pitch than to chase one out of the zone with the game on the line.
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So, I would definitely say that Ichiro was a better hitter than Adam Dunn. I assume there is no disagreement there.
Adam Dunn hit with runners in scoring position 1770 times. He drove in 699 runs in those situations.
Ichiro hit with RISP 1793 times (that is more opportunities for the guy that is clearly the better hitter). Ichiro drove in 608 runs.
He is a better hitter, has had more opportunities, and driven in fewer runs. Maybe Dunn was better at driving in runs. I don't see how else that makes sense.
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As you may know I am a Sox fan. And as such I realized throughout his career that Joe Crede was a good clutch hitter.
Joe Crede was not near as good a hitter in not clutch situations.
With RISP he hit .278 for his career. With no one one he hit .239.
So he hit 40 points higher with RISP. Seems like quite a lot of luck.
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I think this gets overblown. RBIs are a product of being a good hitter. And being a good hitter in the right situation. Some guys fail due to pressure, some are better due to pressure.
Ozzie Smith had over 250 more ABs with RISP than Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio had over 300 more RBI in the 250 fewer attempts he had with RISP.
Those were the first 2 guys I checked. I am sure there are hundreds more examples.
RBIs are a product of opportunity as much or more than from being a good hitter.
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When Mike Greenwell played for the Red Sox, he was a fantastic hitter. But I used to hate to see him come up in a big spot because he ALWAYS swung at the first pitch in late and close situations and usually made weak contact because the pitchers knew it and he wasn't given good pitches to hit.
Statisticians are starting to come around to the idea that there may indeed be guys who are "clutch" hitters. Just because it is difficult to parse out the data doesn't mean that the phenomenon does not exist. People tend to hit for a higher average with men on base for several reasons (pitcher pitching out of the stretch instead of the wind up, fielders not in ideal defensive positions to keep the runners closer to the bags, sacrifice flies are not outs on your AVG, etc).
Anyway, the definition of a clutch situation is different for everybody. It seems to me that patient hitters with a good command of the strike zone are the best guys to have up in big situations. Ortiz has been as clutch as anybody in big spots and it seems that he rarely chases bad balls when the game is on the line. He more likely to get called out on a borderline pitch than to chase one out of the zone with the game on the line.
A lot of being "clutch" also has to do with reputation and perception.
Ortiz is considered clutch because he had some huge hits, particularly in the postseason, 2 WS MVP awards and he had a monstrously clutch 2005 season (3.36). However, according to FanGraphs' "Clutch" statistic, he's in the Poor to Awful range for his entire career (-1.31). He's put up a positive Clutch number in just 7 of his 20 seasons.
(http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/))
On the contrary, Mike Greenwell's career clutch number is 2.26 (Excellent). Although, he had a very anti-clutch 1990 season (-1.46) which included going 0 for 14 on the big stage of the ALCS.
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So, I would definitely say that Ichiro was a better hitter than Adam Dunn. I assume there is no disagreement there.
Adam Dunn hit with runners in scoring position 1770 times. He drove in 699 runs in those situations.
Ichiro hit with RISP 1793 times (that is more opportunities for the guy that is clearly the better hitter). Ichiro drove in 608 runs.
He is a better hitter, has had more opportunities, and driven in fewer runs. Maybe Dunn was better at driving in runs. I don't see how else that makes sense.
110 of those runs driven in by Dunn were him driving himself in with a HR.
Ichiro hit 18 HR in his 1793 RISP ABs.
You could say that Ichiro drove home 590 runners other than himself while Dunn only drove in...589. Hang on, that still makes Dunn better in my made up statistic because he's had fewer ABs. Um...nevermind.
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110 of those runs driven in by Dunn were him driving himself in with a HR.
Ichiro hit 18 HR in his 1793 RISP ABs.
You could say that Ichiro drove home 590 runners other than himself while Dunn only drove in...589. Hang on, that still makes Dunn better in my made up statistic because he's had fewer ABs. Um...nevermind.
Ichiro also hit 76 points higher for his career. So if they had similar opportunities, and you take out Dunn's power (which negates the opportunities is the only thing that matters argument anyway) you would still expect Ichiro to drive in more of those runs. For some reason he didn't.
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Ichiro also hit 76 points higher for his career. So if they had similar opportunities, and you take out Dunn's power (which negates the opportunities is the only thing that matters argument anyway) you would still expect Ichiro to drive in more of those runs. For some reason he didn't.
Add to it that Dunn hit .226 with RISP while Ichiro hit .307.
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Add to it that Dunn hit .226 with RISP while Ichiro hit .307.
Doesn't this prove that RBIs are opportunity based?
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So, I would definitely say that Ichiro was a better hitter than Adam Dunn. I assume there is no disagreement there.
Adam Dunn hit with runners in scoring position 1770 times. He drove in 699 runs in those situations.
Ichiro hit with RISP 1793 times (that is more opportunities for the guy that is clearly the better hitter). Ichiro drove in 608 runs.
He is a better hitter, has had more opportunities, and driven in fewer runs. Maybe Dunn was better at driving in runs. I don't see how else that makes sense.
To be clear, I assume we are talking about how many opportunities Dunn and Ichiro had - not the number of runners in scoring position in their ABs.
If that is the case, then Dunn would have had many more actual runners in scoring position to start with. Don't know where to find exact stats on that, but if you just go by averages, it would be the case.
Ichiro had the 7, 8, and 9 hitters setting the table. Dunn had the 1, 2, and 3 hitters. For that the stats are very conclusive. Dunn would have a lot more runners on base.
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White Sox now have one of the top 3 worst stadium names in sports
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To be clear, I assume we are talking about how many opportunities Dunn and Ichiro had - not the number of runners in scoring position in their ABs.
If that is the case, then Dunn would have had many more actual runners in scoring position to start with. Don't know where to find exact stats on that, but if you just go by averages, it would be the case.
Ichiro had the 7, 8, and 9 hitters setting the table. Dunn had the 1, 2, and 3 hitters. For that the stats are very conclusive. Dunn would have a lot more runners on base.
Dunn hit with runners on 2nd 8 more times. Runners on third 2 more times. Ichiro hit with runners on 2nd and 3rd 28 more times and Dunn hit with them loaded 10 more times.
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White Sox now have one of the top 3 worst stadium names in sports
The logo for the company doesn't help either...
(https://www.guaranteedrate.com/assets/images/gr-logo-dark-responsive.svg)
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White Sox now have one of the top 3 worst stadium names in sports
It's terrible, but pick which two are better:
Smoothie King Center
KFC Yum! Center
Sleep Train Arena
Jobing.com Arena
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Doesn't this prove that RBIs are opportunity based?
Robin Ventura hit .340 with the bases loaded. He was a .267 career hitter. Seems clutch.
Mike Schmidt and Brooks Robinson had simliar averages with RISP. Robinson had 400 more ABs. Their RBI numbers in those situations were not quite identical, but pretty close. Schmidt had 1055 RBI in 2361 ABs. Robinson had 1063 in 2738. Why wouldn't Robinson's lead be more significant if it were all about opportunity?
Lou Gehrig had 1331 ABs with RISP. He knocked in 816 runs in those opportunities.
That is ridiculous. That ratio is astronomical. Seems pretty clutch.
There are hundreds more. Opportunities certainly play an important role. So does staying calm under pressure, or even thriving under pressure. So does hitting home runs. So does hitting doubles. So does being able to hit fly balls. If not, every guy with 1500 ABS (crude adjustment for Gehrig having a better BA than most) would have about 800 RBIs in those opportunities. The fact of the matter is, just about no one does.
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Robin Ventura hit .340 with the bases loaded. He was a .267 career hitter. Seems clutch.
I believe there are over 40 players hitting over .400 w/ bases loaded this year. In fact, there are 10 teams that have a higher BA with bases loaded than ANY team does with the bases empty. When you look at BA with runners in scoring position, not one single team has a batting average average higher than the top team with the bases empty.
My guess is that every single year, teams hit for a considerably higher average when the bases are loaded. That is not a "clutch" stat. It really is easier to hit with the bases loaded than in any other situation, except for maybe a 3-1 count.
Batters see a lot more strikes when there are no open bases. Pitchers can't afford to throw 4 balls off the edge of the plate hoping you go fishing.
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It's terrible, but pick which two are better:
Smoothie King Center
KFC Yum! Center
Sleep Train Arena
Jobing.com Arena
Don't forget Jenny Craig center.
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It's terrible, but pick which two are better:
Smoothie King Center
KFC Yum! Center
Sleep Train Arena
Jobing.com Arena
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/11-weirdest-stadium-names
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I believe there are over 40 players hitting over .400 w/ bases loaded this year. In fact, there are 10 teams that have a higher BA with bases loaded than ANY team does with the bases empty. When you look at BA with runners in scoring position, not one single team has a batting average average higher than the top team with the bases empty.
My guess is that every single year, teams hit for a considerably higher average when the bases are loaded. That is not a "clutch" stat. It really is easier to hit with the bases loaded than in any other situation, except for maybe a 3-1 count.
Batters see a lot more strikes when there are no open bases. Pitchers can't afford to throw 4 balls off the edge of the plate hoping you go fishing.
Pretty sure that doesn't explain a 70 point difference. He is also 2nd or 3rd all time in terms of grand slams as a guy that hit 200 some home runs. It really seems like he was able to step it up to a level most guys don't have with the bases loaded. And there are plenty of hitters that are completely terrible with the bases loaded. I don't think I believe pressure can negatively impact some people and believe there is no chance it positively impacts others. Thise two things don't seem like they can both be true. The former is obviously true...
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A lot of being "clutch" also has to do with reputation and perception.
Ortiz is considered clutch because he had some huge hits, particularly in the postseason, 2 WS MVP awards and he had a monstrously clutch 2005 season (3.36). However, according to FanGraphs' "Clutch" statistic, he's in the Poor to Awful range for his entire career (-1.31). He's put up a positive Clutch number in just 7 of his 20 seasons.
(http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/))
On the contrary, Mike Greenwell's career clutch number is 2.26 (Excellent). Although, he had a very anti-clutch 1990 season (-1.46) which included going 0 for 14 on the big stage of the ALCS.
I don't pretend to completely understand their math, but it looks like it is based on Win probability added. For example, a first inning grand slam is a high leverage situation and will do a great deal to add to win probability, but I wouldn't consider it a hit in a "clutch" situation.
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FanGraphs created a Clutch statistic.
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/
Here's the all-time Clutch players:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2016&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=12,d
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FanGraphs created a Clutch statistic.
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/clutch/
Here's the all-time Clutch players:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2016&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=12,d
I know he was a good hitter, but I find it kind of hilarious that Buckner is on the first page.
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I know he was a good hitter, but I find it kind of hilarious that Buckner is on the first page.
A lot of surprising names in the Top 30. Mark Grace never drove in 100 runs in a season, (and batted in the middle of the order for most of his career), but is #11 (two spots behind "One Dog" Lance Johnson and 4 behind Ozzie Guillen).
I'm most surprised that Carlos Lee had a negative clutch rating every year between 2002-2007. He's another guy on the all-time grand slam list, and someone I always assumed was good with the game on the line.
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Corey Seager just broke up Matt Moore's no hit bid with 2 out in the 9th on Corey Seager bobble head night.
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Some interesting award races are shaping up.
NL Cy Young Candidates:
Bumgarner
2.44 ERA/ 180.2 IP/ 202 K/ .212 BAA/ 1.05 WHIP/ 12-8
Hendricks
2.19 ERA/ 152 IP/ 135 K/ .207BAA/ 1.00 WHIP/ 12-7
Arrieta
2.62/161/158/.183/1.04/ 16-5
Syndergaard
2.61/148/177/.249/1.16
The Wild Card: Clayton Kershaw. 1.79/121/145/.185/.73/ 11-2
Kershaw is on the verge of returning (possibly even next week). I think if he gets enough innings to qualify for the ERA title (162) which will be difficult for him, he will win the Cy Young. The Dodgers have 35 games left. He would have to get back pretty quickly and pitch fairly deep into games. Right now I would put my money on Bumgarner, but this is pretty close and the last month plus will certainly determine who wins.
NL ROY:
Kyle Seager. Story getting hurt locked this one up.
NL MVP
Daniel Murphy- .346/.389/.610 (leads the league in BA and SLG)
24 HR/96 RBI (2nd)/ 37 2B (leads league tied with Rizzo)/ .999 OPS (leads league)
Kris Bryant .301/.373/.595
33HR (2nd)/86 RBI 30 2B .968 OPS (2nd)
Anthony Rizzo .298/.398/.560
25HR/87 RBI 37 2B (leads, tied with Murphy) .956 OPS (3rd)
Arenado is worthy, but his team is out of it and that will probably cost him.
Seager may get some votes, but I think those are the top 3. If Murphy hits .350 with an OPS of 1.000 it will be hard to give it to anyone else. But Bryant will have a lot to say about that down the stretch.
I will get to the AL stuff later!
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Some interesting award races are shaping up.
NL Cy Young Candidates:
Bumgarner
2.44 ERA/ 180.2 IP/ 202 K/ .212 BAA/ 1.05 WHIP/ 12-8
Hendricks
2.19 ERA/ 152 IP/ 135 K/ .207BAA/ 1.00 WHIP/ 12-7
Arrieta
2.62/161/158/.183/1.04/ 16-5
Syndergaard
2.61/148/177/.249/1.16
The Wild Card: Clayton Kershaw. 1.79/121/145/.185/.73/ 11-2
Excellent analysis, Chuckler.
Hendricks may deserve it, but I don't think he has a chance because the other candidates are all big names.
My prediction is Bumgarner - both because he has had a great year and he has been very, very good for a while now. It may be his "turn".
My choice would probably be Arrieta. His BBs have increased, but he is still dominating hitters (0.183 BA).
Kershaw had it in the bag until he got hurt - I just don't think you can give out the top pitcher's award to a guy who missed that much time.
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To me, a big mark in Bumgarner's favor is the innings pitched. He is quite a bit ahead of the other guys right in the picture. The 30 innings over Hendricks and 20 over Arrieta are no minor thing.
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My take on some of the AL races, I know you were all waiting with baited breath.
Cy Young. Kind of a mess.
Corey Kluber
3.13 ERA/ 169.2 IP/171K/ .218 BAA/ 1.04 WHIP/ 13-8
Cole Hamels
2.67/168.2/167/.231/1.23 WHIP/ 14-4
Chris Sale
3.15/168.2/165/.219/1.03/15-6
Jose Quintana
2.84/164.2/142/.238/1.12 WHIP/10-9
JA Happ
3.19/155.1/139/.232/1.15/17-4
Duffy has been great, but I don't think he has the innings to be in the conversation in earnest. (138.2)
Wild Card: Zach Britton. A reliever. A completely dominant reliever. Dominating completely everyone. An ERA of .69 WHIP of .83 BAA of .150 38/38 in save opportunities. But 52 innings pitched. For me this award should go to a starter, but Britton has been the most dominating pitcher in the AL. But those innings matter. Also Justin Verlander is lurking right there with these other guys.
Not sure how I would handicap this one. My guess is it comes down to Hamels/Kluber/Sale the last month. Hamels has been great, but his BAA and WHIP are considerably higher, though the ERA advantage is significant. Kluber and Sale have been nearly identical. Eerily similar actually.
MVP.
Jose Altuve .361/.422/.571 (1st/2nd/2nd) 2nd in OPS (.993)
37 2B, 20 HR, 84 RBI, 26 SB (3rd)
Mike Trout. .316/.432/.555 (4th/1st/3rd) .987 OPS is 3rd
27 2b, 24 HR, 82 RBI, 21 SB 87 BB (leads league)
David Ortiz: .321/.411/.636 (2nd/3rd/1st) 1.047 OPS is 1st
40 2B (1st), 30 HR (6th), 100 RBI (2nd) 2 SB (holy crap!!!)
Mookie Betts: .314/.355/.553 (5th/--/5th) .908 OPS is 8th
34 2b 28 HR 91 RBI
Ortiz may get some sentimental votes (not saying he isn't worthy, obviously he is, but it may be even more) Ortiz doesn't play a position, and I think that hurts him since the other 3 are pretty elite. If I were ranking this right now, I'd got Altuve/ Trout/ Ortiz/ Betts. How Trout does this every single year is astounding. I think the fact that he is Mike Trout will negate the fact that his team is not in the race. Just like the NL, the last month here is critical.
AL ROY seems to be a one horse race.
Michael Fulmer. The Cespedes trade pays off immediately for the Tigers as Fulmer has become maybe their best pitcher. I don't think he has the innings for Cy Young consideration (125) but he has been magnificent.
10-4 2.58 ERA 104 K 33 BB 125 IP .218 BAA and 1.06 WHIP
Nomar Mazara may get some love, and deservedly so. .280/.333/.425
I'd say the only other guy that would get serious consideration is maybe Edwin Diaz who has been absolutely electric for the M's, but with only 36 IP, I don't think he will have the body of work (though he has 66 ks in those 36 IP).
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Hendricks isn't flashy enough for the CY Young, love em, but he doesn't dominate hitters. It's Bummys turn this year.
Also, really pulling for Britton as chucker pointed out. He's a great story, was left for dead as a starter, rebuilt himself into a dominate closer.
For MVP, I think Bryant and Altuve win it. Would love to see Mookie as he's one of my personal favorites, but Altuve, damn.
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Excellent analysis, Chuckler.
Hendricks may deserve it, but I don't think he has a chance because the other candidates are all big names.
My prediction is Bumgarner - both because he has had a great year and he has been very, very good for a while now. It may be his "turn".
My choice would probably be Arrieta. His BBs have increased, but he is still dominating hitters (0.183 BA).
Kershaw had it in the bag until he got hurt - I just don't think you can give out the top pitcher's award to a guy who missed that much time.
Arrieta has allowed the 5th most walks in the NL. Bumgarner is 18th
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Hendricks isn't flashy enough for the CY Young, love em, but he doesn't dominate hitters. It's Bummys turn this year.
Also, really pulling for Britton as chucker pointed out. He's a great story, was left for dead as a starter, rebuilt himself into a dominate closer.
For MVP, I think Bryant and Altuve win it. Would love to see Mookie as he's one of my personal favorites, but Altuve, damn.
Altuve has really become a truly elite player. I thought the power surge last year would be an illusion, but he has backed it up.
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Altuve has really become a truly elite player. I thought the power surge last year would be an illusion, but he has backed it up.
And where does that power come from? He's shorter than all of our grandmas. Crazy good.
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Jeremy Jeffress was arrested for dwi last night. He pissed on himself durimg the sobriety test. That is fantastic.
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Not really. That's terrible.
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Not really. That's terrible.
The fact that an irresponsible drunken idiot that endangered other people's lives is terrible. The fact that he peed his pants in front of the officer and that the entire fan base of MLB knows is fantastic. If you couldn't tell which part was fantastic, well, I don't know what to say. If you for some reason feel sorry for him, well, I don't know what to say.
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Sale made an improvement to his case tonight. He took the loss and surrendered 3 runs, but he threw a CG, 5H, 0 BB and 14 Ks.
Looking into his numbers a little bit, coming into tonight Sale led the league in OPS against at .615 (a whole .003 ahead of his twin Kluber...) There are 0 qualifying players in the AL that have an OPS that low. The entire league, against him, is literally worse than the worst qualifying player in the league. That is pretty impressive.
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The fact that an irresponsible drunken idiot that endangered other people's lives is terrible. The fact that he peed his pants in front of the officer and that the entire fan base of MLB knows is fantastic. If you couldn't tell which part was fantastic, well, I don't know what to say. If you for some reason feel sorry for him, well, I don't know what to say.
A guy who has previous alcohol and drug issues, and falls off the wagon, is not "fantastic." It's terrible.
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NL CY Young is a two horse race between Syndegard and Jose Fernandez, numbers aren't even close for Arrieta, Hendricks, Bumgarner. Scherzer has a chance, but numbers wise, Fernandez is the best NL pitcher (Best xFIP in baseball at 2.35, 5.2 WAR).
In the AL, pick out of a hat between Tanaka/Kluber/Sale. Happ & Hamels shouldn't even been on the ballot.
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Some interesting award races are shaping up.
NL Cy Young Candidates:
Bumgarner
2.44 ERA/ 180.2 IP/ 202 K/ .212 BAA/ 1.05 WHIP/ 12-8
Hendricks
2.19 ERA/ 152 IP/ 135 K/ .207BAA/ 1.00 WHIP/ 12-7
Arrieta
2.62/161/158/.183/1.04/ 16-5
Syndergaard
2.61/148/177/.249/1.16
The Wild Card: Clayton Kershaw. 1.79/121/145/.185/.73/ 11-2
Kershaw is on the verge of returning (possibly even next week). I think if he gets enough innings to qualify for the ERA title (162) which will be difficult for him, he will win the Cy Young. The Dodgers have 35 games left. He would have to get back pretty quickly and pitch fairly deep into games. Right now I would put my money on Bumgarner, but this is pretty close and the last month plus will certainly determine who wins.
NL ROY:
Kyle Seager. Story getting hurt locked this one up.
NL MVP
Daniel Murphy- .346/.389/.610 (leads the league in BA and SLG)
24 HR/96 RBI (2nd)/ 37 2B (leads league tied with Rizzo)/ .999 OPS (leads league)
Kris Bryant .301/.373/.595
33HR (2nd)/86 RBI 30 2B .968 OPS (2nd)
Anthony Rizzo .298/.398/.560
25HR/87 RBI 37 2B (leads, tied with Murphy) .956 OPS (3rd)
Arenado is worthy, but his team is out of it and that will probably cost him.
Seager may get some votes, but I think those are the top 3. If Murphy hits .350 with an OPS of 1.000 it will be hard to give it to anyone else. But Bryant will have a lot to say about that down the stretch.
I will get to the AL stuff later!
If Murphy hits .350 with an 1.000 OPS it would not be difficult to give the MVP to someone else. Let's not forget that he's horrendous defensively as well.
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NL CY Young is a two horse race between Syndegard and Jose Fernandez, numbers aren't even close for Arrieta, Hendricks, Bumgarner. Scherzer has a chance, but numbers wise, Fernandez is the best NL pitcher (Best xFIP in baseball at 2.35, 5.2 WAR).
In the AL, pick out of a hat between Tanaka/Kluber/Sale. Happ & Hamels shouldn't even been on the ballot.
Wow, ok well, how are the other guys not close? FIP is such a flawed stat. You may as well use k/9 because that throws FIP completely out of whack. Fernandez is fantastic. I am a huge fan. He is completely dominant and is amazingly talented and still ridiculously young. But he has an ERA that is about .75 higher than Bumgarner, he allows more hits and walks per 9, higher WHIP, higher AVG against, considerably fewer innings pitched. The same can all be said for Syndergaard.
I'm also curious why you have Tanaka in the top 3. He has had a good year, and looking at it, I probably should have included him, but he is closer to the Quintana side of the award than Sale or Kluber. I am also curious to your point on Hamels. I can understand why one would say that about Happ, but Hamels has been pretty great pitching in a park that is pretty terrible to pitch in. His numbers seem to check all the boxes that make him a contender.
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If Murphy hits .350 with an 1.000 OPS it would not be difficult to give the MVP to someone else. Let's not forget that he's horrendous defensively as well.
Well, defense hasn't always been the biggest factor in MVP voting, and also Murphy hasn't been that terrible this year (probably still below average, but not as bad as past years). And it isn't like the AL where Altuve and Trout are completely elite defenders. Bryant is good, but as has been discussed his greatest defensive attribute is his versatility. Rizzo is a great defensive 1B, but it is also the least strenuous (and likely least important) defensive position. With that being said, MVP usually comes down to hitting.
You are certainly right though, it could easily go somewhere else. I'm willing to bet I know where you'd vote, regardless of what Murphy does over the last month.
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Wow, ok well, how are the other guys not close? FIP is such a flawed stat. You may as well use k/9 because that throws FIP completely out of whack. Fernandez is fantastic. I am a huge fan. He is completely dominant and is amazingly talented and still ridiculously young. But he has an ERA that is about .75 higher than Bumgarner, he allows more hits and walks per 9, higher WHIP, higher AVG against, considerably fewer innings pitched. The same can all be said for Syndergaard.
I'm also curious why you have Tanaka in the top 3. He has had a good year, and looking at it, I probably should have included him, but he is closer to the Quintana side of the award than Sale or Kluber. I am also curious to your point on Hamels. I can understand why one would say that about Happ, but Hamels has been pretty great pitching in a park that is pretty terrible to pitch in. His numbers seem to check all the boxes that make him a contender.
I'm sure we can agree that Wins/Losses is the most useless stat is baseball, I think ERA is mostly meaningless. Happ and Hamels are having quality years, but I strongly disagree on Hamels numbers relative to the CY Young Field. FIP and xFIP (and more so SIERA) tell me personally alot more about a pitcher, I'll agree to disagree if you think otherwise.
I'm not trying to cherry pick all the stats I like, so here's a sample.
AL Ranks SIERA WAR FIP xFIP WHIP AVG/vs K/BB
Sale 4 2 5 9 1 3 5
Tanaka 9 3 2 6 6 12 3
Kluber 6 1 1 4 4 4 9
Hamels 15 14 17 11 17 9 26
NL Ranks
Fernandez 1 2 1 1 11 11 3
Noah S. 2 1 2 2 15 21 1
Madison 5 5 5 9 6 4 6
Hendrix 14 8 9 13 2 3 18
Arrieta 17 7 7 11 4 1 28
NL really depends on what your cup of tea is for pitching stats. I'll grant that Baumgarner's rankings are more consistent across all stat lines upon closer look. Hendricks and Arrieta are having very good years, and Kershaw would be the clear cut leader here if he was not injured.
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On my iPhone, that table didn't come out right, my laptop, it looked right.
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My take on some of the AL races, I know you were all waiting with baited breath.
Cy Young. Kind of a mess.
Corey Kluber
3.13 ERA/ 169.2 IP/171K/ .218 BAA/ 1.04 WHIP/ 13-8
Cole Hamels
2.67/168.2/167/.231/1.23 WHIP/ 14-4
Chris Sale
3.15/168.2/165/.219/1.03/15-6
Jose Quintana
2.84/164.2/142/.238/1.12 WHIP/10-9
JA Happ
3.19/155.1/139/.232/1.15/17-4
Duffy has been great, but I don't think he has the innings to be in the conversation in earnest. (138.2)
Wild Card: Zach Britton. A reliever. A completely dominant reliever. Dominating completely everyone. An ERA of .69 WHIP of .83 BAA of .150 38/38 in save opportunities. But 52 innings pitched. For me this award should go to a starter, but Britton has been the most dominating pitcher in the AL. But those innings matter. Also Justin Verlander is lurking right there with these other guys.
Not sure how I would handicap this one. My guess is it comes down to Hamels/Kluber/Sale the last month. Hamels has been great, but his BAA and WHIP are considerably higher, though the ERA advantage is significant. Kluber and Sale have been nearly identical. Eerily similar actually.
MVP.
Jose Altuve .361/.422/.571 (1st/2nd/2nd) 2nd in OPS (.993)
37 2B, 20 HR, 84 RBI, 26 SB (3rd)
Mike Trout. .316/.432/.555 (4th/1st/3rd) .987 OPS is 3rd
27 2b, 24 HR, 82 RBI, 21 SB 87 BB (leads league)
David Ortiz: .321/.411/.636 (2nd/3rd/1st) 1.047 OPS is 1st
40 2B (1st), 30 HR (6th), 100 RBI (2nd) 2 SB (holy crap!!!)
Mookie Betts: .314/.355/.553 (5th/--/5th) .908 OPS is 8th
34 2b 28 HR 91 RBI
Ortiz may get some sentimental votes (not saying he isn't worthy, obviously he is, but it may be even more) Ortiz doesn't play a position, and I think that hurts him since the other 3 are pretty elite. If I were ranking this right now, I'd got Altuve/ Trout/ Ortiz/ Betts. How Trout does this every single year is astounding. I think the fact that he is Mike Trout will negate the fact that his team is not in the race. Just like the NL, the last month here is critical.
AL ROY seems to be a one horse race.
Michael Fulmer. The Cespedes trade pays off immediately for the Tigers as Fulmer has become maybe their best pitcher. I don't think he has the innings for Cy Young consideration (125) but he has been magnificent.
10-4 2.58 ERA 104 K 33 BB 125 IP .218 BAA and 1.06 WHIP
Nomar Mazara may get some love, and deservedly so. .280/.333/.425
I'd say the only other guy that would get serious consideration is maybe Edwin Diaz who has been absolutely electric for the M's, but with only 36 IP, I don't think he will have the body of work (though he has 66 ks in those 36 IP).
Rick Porcello is 17-3 with a 3.23 ERA in 171+ IP. I know wins don't mean what they used to, but if he finishes 21-3 or 21-4 with a 3.2 ERA in Fenway he is going to get some serious support.
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For what's its worth in the MVP race, Kris Bryant now leads MLB in fWAR.
Bryant 7.5
Trout 7.2
Seager 6.9
Donaldson 6.9
Altuve 6.7
...
...
...
Murphy 4.8
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What do you think Brewers fans? Braun for Puig, a prospect and a SP?
I'd make that deal in a second. If Puig and McCarthy (or another SP in the deal) can stay healthy and perform well, they could be flipped and bring back more value than the Brewers would get for Braun at this point.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/)
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I'd flip that low-life, scum, sleazeball for a day's supply of pine tar and a bag of rosin, ai na?
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What do you think Brewers fans? Braun for Puig, a prospect and a SP?
I'd make that deal in a second. If Puig and McCarthy (or another SP in the deal) can stay healthy and perform well, they could be flipped and bring back more value than the Brewers would get for Braun at this point.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/)
McCarthy stay healthy? What is this that you speak of?
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What do you think Brewers fans? Braun for Puig, a prospect and a SP?
I'd make that deal in a second. If Puig and McCarthy (or another SP in the deal) can stay healthy and perform well, they could be flipped and bring back more value than the Brewers would get for Braun at this point.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/)
I'd give Braun to the Dodgers for some Big League Chew.
Edit: 4Never beat me to it. I don't like Puig, but if he can be the new Carlos Gomez even better.
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If Bryant takes MVP, I think he would have won individual awards in 4 straight seasons. College POY, Minor league POY, ROY, MVP. That's impressive stuff
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If Bryant takes MVP, I think he would have won individual awards in 4 straight seasons. College POY, Minor league POY, ROY, MVP. That's impressive stuff
That would be incredibly impressive.
I can't imagine Bryant not winning the MVP. In addition to having a monster season, he's a star player on a media darling team who happens to have the best record in baseball.
#donedeal
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If Bryant takes MVP, I think he would have won individual awards in 4 straight seasons. College POY, Minor league POY, ROY, MVP. That's impressive stuff
I believe that would be the first time in history that has ever been accomplished. Impressive might be an understatement.
That would be incredibly impressive.
I can't imagine Bryant not winning the MVP. In addition to having a monster season, he's a star player on a media darling team who happens to have the best record in baseball.
#donedeal
Here's an article from Fangraphs on his candidacy and why he is the clear choice.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-case-for-kris-bryant-for-national-league-mvp/
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Baseball just got a bit less great and quite a bit less fun. :'( :'(
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I can't believe the Cubs have locked it up, big time. Been a lifelong fan.
Figures, some idiot at WGN ends the relationship now. Probably won't happen but heads should roll at WGN. That chump should be forced to watch Matlock reruns for the rest of his life.
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Baseball just got a bit less great and quite a bit less fun. :'( :'(
This a damn shame. JFer was great.
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(http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1770339/tulojose.gif)
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(http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1770339/tulojose.gif)
I love that. It looks like it is running at 2x speed as he catches it. Then just grinning back. Such a terrible loss. Ridiculous talent aside, I wish more guys played with the love and the joy he did. I'm going to miss watching him pitch. Just so sad all around. From his amazing story to get here, to his story of how he became so great, to hear just how beloved he was by teammates and foes alike. Poor guy. My heart just goes out to his family.
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Classy of the Mets. Great words by Giancarlo.
http://deadspin.com/the-marlins-honored-jose-fernandez-before-tonights-game-1787110547
Dee Gordon hit his first home run of the season in the first at bat for the Marlins.
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/marlins-dee-gordon-breaks-down-into-tears-after-hitting-lead-off-home-run-092616
https://mobile.twitter.com/Marlins/status/780606639896350720
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Classy of the Mets. Great words by Giancarlo.
http://deadspin.com/the-marlins-honored-jose-fernandez-before-tonights-game-1787110547
Dee Gordon hit his first home run of the season in the first at bat for the Marlins.
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/marlins-dee-gordon-breaks-down-into-tears-after-hitting-lead-off-home-run-092616
https://mobile.twitter.com/Marlins/status/780606639896350720
Love the "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" taps-like version on the trumpet.
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Love the "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" taps-like version on the trumpet.
I was driving, and listening to the game, it sounded just heartbreaking.
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Hard to think that he was scheduled to start Sunday's game but they pushed his start back to Monday to face the Mets. He would not be out on a boat at 3:30 AM Sunday if he was the starting pitcher for a 1:00 PM game that day. If the Marlins couldn't have technically/mathematically still caught the Mets in the Wild Card they don't even bother moving the start back. Or if the series were swapped (Mets came to town before the Braves) they definitely don't push his start back. Crazy how life works.
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The Cubs extend Epstein, Hoyer, and McLeod for five more years. Meanwhile, on the other side of town, the Sox will retain Ventura if he wants to come back.
Good to be a Cubs fan right now.
Edit: The Sox report was from Bob Nightengale so it should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
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The Cubs extend Epstein, Hoyer, and McLeod for five more years. Meanwhile, on the other side of town, the Sox will retain Ventura if he wants to come back.
Good to be a Cubs fan right now.
Edit: The Sox report was from Bob Nightengale so it should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
Never a good time to be a cub fan.
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Never a good time to be a cub fan.
::)
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The Cubs extend Epstein, Hoyer, and McLeod for five more years. Meanwhile, on the other side of town, the Sox will retain Ventura if he wants to come back.
Good to be a Cubs fan right now.
Edit: The Sox report was from Bob Nightengale so it should probably be taken with a grain of salt.
I'd be very surprised is Theo is in Chicago for the entirety of that contract, especially if the Cubs win the WS during that time. He's an odd dude with a lot of interests outside of baseball. He's not going to be a lifer in the game.
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I'd be very surprised is Theo is in Chicago for the entirety of that contract, especially if the Cubs win the WS during that time. He's an odd dude with a lot of interests outside of baseball. He's not going to be a lifer in the game.
I'd be surprised if he stayed after the five years are up if the Cubs have already won one, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he is here until the end of the deal.
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I'd be very surprised is Theo is in Chicago for the entirety of that contract, especially if the Cubs win the WS during that time. He's an odd dude with a lot of interests outside of baseball. He's not going to be a lifer in the game.
He'll be 47 at the end of the contract. I agree he doesn't seem like a "lifer," but with his age, there's a lot he can do professionally after he wins 6 consecutive WS with the Cubs.
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I'd be very surprised is Theo is in Chicago for the entirety of that contract, especially if the Cubs win the WS during that time. He's an odd dude with a lot of interests outside of baseball. He's not going to be a lifer in the game.
Krane Kenney's contract ends in 2020, ai-na?
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Krane Kenney's contract ends in 2020, ai-na?
Kennedy should have been fired long ago. The guy is a bumbling idiot and they've finally come to their senses and kept him away from cameras and microphones.
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Kennedy should have been fired long ago. The guy is a bumbling idiot and they've finally come to their senses and kept him away from cameras and microphones.
He may be a jackass who should never be in front of a camera but Ricketts wouldn't keep him on if he wasn't doing his job on the business side.
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The AL Wildcard is fooked up. Could be a three-way tie for second.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/al-wild-card-tiebreaker-scenarios-for-the-blue-jays-orioles-and-tigers/ (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/al-wild-card-tiebreaker-scenarios-for-the-blue-jays-orioles-and-tigers/)
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Well the season is in the books, with all the numbers in, here are my best guesses at the major awards:
AL MVP.
Super close call between 2 guys for me, in the end, geesh, kind of a toss up. I guess I'd go Trout. Altuve was magnificent as well and could easily win it. Trout had an OPS about .70 higher. Both had great seasons. Not a bad choice. Mookie could easily win as well
AL Cy Young
I almost can't believe it, back from the grave a couple of years ago, I'd say Justin Verlander. He was top tier all year long, and just great in September. 1st in WHIP, 2nd in ERA, 1st in Ks, 16-9, 2nd in BAA, 2nd in H/9, 2nd in OPS against. Just a great season all around.
NL MVP
Well, despite the fact that he was 2nd in BA, 1st in OPS, 4th in RBI, 1st in SLG (by quite a bit), 7th in OBP, 1st in doubles, 5th in hits Daniel Murphy won't win the award.
All of Nolan Arenado's numbers don't matter, because they would be halved or so if he didn't play in Colorado (according to some). His defense doesn't matter because instead of playing decently in a couple positions, he plays beyond expertly at one.
This is Kris Bryant's award. The chosen one from the chosen team. He did everything for the Cubs this year. Put up great numbers across the board. 3rd in HR, 6th in RBI, 11th in BB, 19th in BA, 16th in 2B, 9th in OBP, 4th in SLG, 4th in OPS. It would be a huge upset if he didn't win it.
NL Cy Young
Hmm, does this go to the best pitcher? That is clearly Clayton Kershaw. But, he didn't log enough innings, and there were other exceptional performances.
It is a sweep for the Cubs, becoming the first teammates since Pujols and Carpenter to sweep them, question is, who wins it? I would vote Hendricks, as ERA, to me is the most important category for a pitcher. Hendricks, won this category by a wide margin. He threw 190 innings, enough by a wide margin. He is 3rd in BAA, 2nd in WHIP, top in OPS against.
It could go to Lester just as easily, or even Arrieta. I expect Bumgarner to get some love, and Scherzer, as well as Jose Fernandez and Noah Syndergaard. But it will go to 1 of 3 deserving Cubs.
It is pretty cool, that in the NL, pretty much all the top pitchers are in the playoffs. The Cubs trio, Bum and Cueto on the Giants, Kershaw and Hill on the Dodgers, Scherzer and Roark on the Nats. Syndergaard on the Mets.
Just my thoughts, for now anyways. Maybe they'll change as I digest the season a bit more.
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Fernandez gets NL CY.
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Fernandez gets NL CY.
I think that would be great. And there is certainly a case to be made with the on field performance.
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AL MVP
Mookie Betts (unless writers get sentimental and give some Mookie votes to Ortiz)
AL Cy Young
Rick Porcello (Zach Britton has been the best pitcher in the AL but voters don't like relievers and they LOVE 20+ wins)
AL Rookie
Gary Sanchez
NL MVP
Kris Bryant
NL Cy Young
Kyle Hendriks
NL Rookie
Corey Seager
World Series
Red Sox over Nationals
(As a Cubs fan, I just can't help from picturing the Cubs getting knocked out by Dusty)
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I'll be rooting for Thor and the Mets on Wednesday. Would rather face them than SF in the NLDS considering how banged up they are.
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NL Cy Young
Kyle Hendriks Scherzer
World Series
Red Sox over Nationals Cubs (We'll either get swept, or be ahead 3-2 going back to Boston--where Game 6 will turn on some crazy play--followed by a terribly anti-climatic Game 7 loss).
(As a Cubs fan, I just can't help from picturing the Cubs getting knocked out by Dusty blowing it)
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I think that would be great. And there is certainly a case to be made with the on field performance.
You can't just give a guy an award because he died.
If it was close between him and someone else sure, but there's too many guys ahead of him.
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You can't just give a guy an award because he died.
If it was close between him and someone else sure, but there's too many guys ahead of him.
Second in WAR....he was getting votes regardless.
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You can't just give a guy an award because he died.
If it was close between him and someone else sure, but there's too many guys ahead of him.
He was right there in the race before his death. I think he gets it.
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AL MVP
Mookie Betts (unless writers get sentimental and give some Mookie votes to Ortiz)
AL Cy Young
Rick Porcello (Zach Britton has been the best pitcher in the AL but voters don't like relievers and they LOVE 20+ wins)
AL Rookie
Gary Sanchez
NL MVP
Kris Bryant
NL Cy Young
Kyle Hendriks
NL Rookie
Corey Seager
World Series
Red Sox over Nationals
(As a Cubs fan, I just can't help from picturing the Cubs getting knocked out by Dusty)
I agree with you on the NL, Seager is basically a shoe in, especially since Story didn't play the last 2 months. If he had, i think it could have been a close race. In the AL, Sanchez has a great case, good grief was he spectacular, but the other guy I think has a shot is Michael Fulmer. He was great all year long and threw to a 3.06 ERA in about 160 innings. It will be interesting to see how they are weighted.
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Fulmer for ROY.
Tigers synopsis. I think Ausmus has earned another year. Due to injuries, the starting line-up of Kinsler, Maybin, Cabrera, V Martinez, JD Martinez, Upton, Castellanos, McCann, Iglesias only started 12 games together. Zimmerman missed 3 months, Pelphrey 6 weeks, Norris 3 months, A Wilson, 6 weeks, Hardy, 2 months, Greene 5 weeks.
Maybin missed 70 games, Castellanos 46, JD Martinez 45, McCann 35, Iglesias 20. V Martinez's knees have become a punchline. The Tigers were using Romine and Aviles as their starting outfielders for a week at a time.
MVP: I agree it shouldn't be Miggie, but Cabrera goes .315, 38/108 and no one even thinks about him. A career year for most, slightly disappointing for him. Ah, well.
Injuries, injuries, injuries. The fact that Detroit stayed in it as long as they did as injured as they were means Ausmus gets to return.
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Any thoughts on Renteria, Buckchuckler? I thought he was solid in his one year with the Cubs. If the Sox actually decide to rebuild he could be a very good fit.
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Any thoughts on Renteria, Buckchuckler? I thought he was solid in his one year with the Cubs. If the Sox actually decide to rebuild he could be a very good fit.
Well, I certainly thought he got a raw deal with the Cubs, so I'm glad he is managing again. He certainly seemed to do a good job with the Cubs, as I remember, that team got much better as the season went on with a lot of really young guys.
I guess I am undecided as yet, as he seemed good with the Cubs, but it isn't easy to learn much about a bench coach in 1 year (at least he has more experience than Robin did-- any). The thing I find really odd is that they didn't even interview anyone. The talk around the Sox has been it was almost a given that Sandy Alomar would replace Robin, and I find it weird they didn't even interview anyone. Maybe that means the team and front office loved him. It just feels odd that they just named him.
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Well, I certainly thought he got a raw deal with the Cubs, so I'm glad he is managing again. He certainly seemed to do a good job with the Cubs, as I remember, that team got much better as the season went on with a lot of really young guys.
I guess I am undecided as yet, as he seemed good with the Cubs, but it isn't easy to learn much about a bench coach in 1 year (at least he has more experience than Robin did-- any). The thing I find really odd is that they didn't even interview anyone. The talk around the Sox has been it was almost a given that Sandy Alomar would replace Robin, and I find it weird they didn't even interview anyone. Maybe that means the team and front office loved him. It just feels odd that they just named him.
Renteria did a very good job with the Cubs. He brought a lot of energy and positivity. He got Rizzo and Castro back on track and, even after the Samarzija and Hammel trade, that talent-deficient team went 28-27 over the last 2 months and were right around .500 in 1-run games. I actually think that the Cubs would have made the playoffs under Renteria both this season and last. The talent was/is there and he wasn't going to mess things up. IMO, it's a good hire for the Sox.
I don't think Ventura was ever 100% invested in managing and I wouldn't be surprised if Renteria was brought in as a back-up plan in case Robin bolted during the season. He then did well in his role and was well-liked by the players so they kept him on.
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AL MVP
Mookie Betts
Mike Trout is still the best player but tough to be MVP nowadays when you're team is 14 games under .500. Ortiz had a phenomenal year with the bat but gets penalized for being a DH. Betts is an all around stud; hits, runs, avg, hr, rbi, sb and 2nd in WAR only to Trout. Betts is closer to Trout (10.6 to 9.6 WAR) than 3rd place Kris Bryant and Jose Altuve are to him (both 7.7 WAR).
AL Cy Young
Justin Verlander
2nd in ERA and IP, 1st in WHIP, K's and WAR. If the voters want a pitcher from a playoff team then Corey Kluber gets it over Rickey Porcello.
AL Rookie
Gary Sanchez
A fantastic but short season. He crammed a whole season into 225 PA. Wouldn't be surprised if it goes to someone else due to the brief MLB playing time. But there really isn't another standout rookie in the AL. In fact, Sanchez was still 1st in WAR among AL rookies despite the brief campaign.
NL MVP
Kris Bryant
Best NL player is also on the best team in MLB. Nolan Arenado is on a team 13 games under .500 and other than RBI Bryant has nearly identical stats with a superior WAR. That doesn't even take into account the altitude of Coors Field.
NL Cy Young
Max Scherzer
Just a gut feeling. Kershaw was the best pitcher but only started 21 games. Hendricks and Lester split the Cub vote. Jose Fernandez is in the discussion and might get some extra sentimental votes. I see a split vote with very little separation 1-5 and Scherzer emerges with the award.
NL Rookie
Corey Seager
Trevor Story is a close 2nd. However, not playing a full season hurts him since the NL has a clear standout in Seager. WAR of 6.1 far and away tops among all rookies.
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AL MVP
Mookie Betts
Mike Trout is still the best player but tough to be MVP nowadays when you're team is 14 games under .500. Ortiz had a phenomenal year with the bat but gets penalized for being a DH. Betts is an all around stud; hits, runs, avg, hr, rbi, sb and 2nd in WAR only to Trout. Betts is closer to Trout (10.6 to 9.6 WAR) than 3rd place Kris Bryant and Jose Altuve are to him (both 7.7 WAR).
I understand what you are saying, and you are certainly not wrong, but the point that Betts was almost as good as Trout is an astpounding case for Betts over Trout.
As Tower pointed out with Miggy, I think Trout's greatness is already being taken for granted. For example, Betts is one of baseball's best young players and often gets cited as such, and rightfully so, but he is only a year younger than Trout.
Trout this year was the second person in history to over 120 R,115 BB, 30 SB and hit .315 (I heard it on MLB radio, pretty sure those were the categories). The only other player to accomplish those numbers was Ty Cobb.
Does everyone remember Lou Brock? Mike Trout already has a higher career WAR. And Jim Rice. And Roy Campanella, and many many more.
But back to topic, yes your point on the Angels is well taken, and will likely cost MLB's best player an MVP.
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Toronto fans are THE WORST!
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AL MVP
Mookie Betts
Mike Trout is still the best player but tough to be MVP nowadays when you're team is 14 games under .500. Ortiz had a phenomenal year with the bat but gets penalized for being a DH. Betts is an all around stud; hits, runs, avg, hr, rbi, sb and 2nd in WAR only to Trout. Betts is closer to Trout (10.6 to 9.6 WAR) than 3rd place Kris Bryant and Jose Altuve are to him (both 7.7 WAR).
So Trout is punished because the team around him is worse? In an sport that is pretty much a series of individual battles, I don't understand why the team's performance would matter. I understand that line of thinking more in basketball and football which is much more of a team game.
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So Trout is punished because the team around him is worse? In an sport that is pretty much a series of individual battles, I don't understand why the team's performance would matter. I understand that line of thinking more in basketball and football which is much more of a team game.
I don't think anyone here supports that narrative, but that is how it will be voted.
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At least Britton will be rested up for the next game.
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At least Britton will be rested up for the next game.
Unreal. Britton gave up 1 dinger all year and had the highest gb rate in history.
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Second in WAR....he was getting votes regardless.
He was right there in the race before his death. I think he gets it.
Cy Young votes no doubt. But to win it? No way.
Also Baseball Reference has Fernandez as a 4.2 WAR.
1. Scherzer (WSN) 6.2
2. Cueto (SFG) 5.6
Kershaw (LAD) 5.6
4. Roark (WSN) 5.5
5. Martinez (STL) 5.4
6. Lester (CHC) 5.3
7. Syndergaard (NYM) 5.3
8. Bumgarner (SFG) 5.0
9. Hendricks (CHC) 5.0
10. Teheran (ATL) 4.8
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So Trout is punished because the team around him is worse? In an sport that is pretty much a series of individual battles, I don't understand why the team's performance would matter. I understand that line of thinking more in basketball and football which is much more of a team game.
It really depends on if you view the MVP as being "the best player" or if you feel it should go to the player "most valuable to his team."
The Angels won 74 games with the best player in baseball. Without Trout, they win maybe 65-70? IOW, they're still bad. Replace Mookie Betts with a league-average player and the Red Sox likely miss the playoffs. That's a much more significant difference. All things considered, Trout is a better player than Betts, but Betts' value carried a greater significance this season.
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It really depends on if you view the MVP as being "the best player" or if you feel it should go to the player "most valuable to his team."
The Angels won 74 games with the best player in baseball. Without Trout, they win maybe 65-70? IOW, they're still bad. Replace Mookie Betts with a league-average player and the Red Sox likely miss the playoffs. That's a much more significant difference. All things considered, Trout is a better player than Betts, but Betts' value carried a greater significance this season.
Isn't the player with the highest WAR by definition the most valuable then? Trout is 10.6 v. Betts 9.6.
Again the "missing playoffs" is because there are other players on the team. Not just Betts.
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Isn't the player with the highest WAR by definition the most valuable then? Trout is 10.6 v. Betts 9.6.
Again the "missing playoffs" is because there are other players on the team. Not just Betts.
So should the MVP just go to the player in each league with the highest WAR, like winning the batting title?
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Isn't the player with the highest WAR by definition the most valuable then? Trout is 10.6 v. Betts 9.6.
Again the "missing playoffs" is because there are other players on the team. Not just Betts.
There is a very large "value" difference in winning your division vs not making the playoffs (Boston). Going from bad (74 wins) to worse (63 wins) (Angels) is actually a positive as you move up in the draft.
So Boston's season is ruined if a replacement player (or someone near there) takes Betts's place. The Angels, on the other hand, would have been better off had Trout taken the year off.
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Unreal. Britton gave up 1 dinger all year and had the highest gb rate in history.
At least Britton will be rested up for the next game.
Terrible decision on Showalter's part. Britton could have gone two innings. Extend the game and give your offense another chance to score. You still have Ubaldo available if necessary.
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Cy Young votes no doubt. But to win it? No way.
Also Baseball Reference has Fernandez as a 4.2 WAR.
1. Scherzer (WSN) 6.2
2. Cueto (SFG) 5.6
Kershaw (LAD) 5.6
4. Roark (WSN) 5.5
5. Martinez (STL) 5.4
6. Lester (CHC) 5.3
7. Syndergaard (NYM) 5.3
8. Bumgarner (SFG) 5.0
9. Hendricks (CHC) 5.0
10. Teheran (ATL) 4.8
Fangraphs WAR is the Supreme Leader of WAR.
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I wouldn't complain if Trout got the MVP. If the award was Most Outstanding Player, then I would give Trout the edge. But Betts had very similar stats. Combined with winning, I think the voters will favor Betts.
Lenny and MM summed up my point very well.
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Trout this year was the second person in history to over 120 R,115 BB, 30 SB and hit .315. The only other player to accomplish those numbers was Ty Cobb.
I've never liked these "stat combo" accolades. Why would a player with Trout's combination be any more special than somebody who had 123 runs, 109 BB, 32 SB and hit .301? The round-figure versions of stat-combos are bad enough ... but 115 walks? Can't get much more arbitrary than that. I mean, if he only had 114 walks, would he have been some kind of slacker?
And I'm not picking on Trout (or you, because, as you said, you just got that stat combo from another source). I laughed when I heard that Nic Batum was one of only three NBA players to average 14.5 points, 6 rebounds and 5.5 assists last season. Um ... so?
Trout doesn't need such silly stat-combo references to be known as great. I agree he is the best player in baseball. If I had an MVP vote, however, I wouldn't make him my No. 1 choice. The award isn't called "Player of the Year" or "Best Player." It is Most VALUABLE Player, and the meaning of "valuable" purposely has been left to each voter to decide.
While Trout didn't play in a game that was meaningful for the Angels since June, Betts and Ortiz got numerous clutch hits for a team that went from borderline being out of the playoffs to taking over a very competitive AL East. They faced different pressure than Trout did, and they came through.
So yes, Trout will be punished by voters for his teammates' crappiness, and I'd argue that it's perfectly "fair" for voters to cast their ballots with that in mind.
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I've never liked these "stat combo" accolades. Why would a player with Trout's combination be any more special than somebody who had 123 runs, 109 BB, 32 SB and hit .301? The round-figure versions of stat-combos are bad enough ... but 115 walks? Can't get much more arbitrary than that. I mean, if he only had 114 walks, would he have been some kind of slacker?
And I'm not picking on Trout (or you, because, as you said, you just got that stat combo from another source). I laughed when I heard that Nic Batum was one of only three NBA players to average 14.5 points, 6 rebounds and 5.5 assists last season. Um ... so?
Trout doesn't need such silly stat-combo references to be known as great. I agree he is the best player in baseball. If I had an MVP vote, however, I wouldn't make him my No. 1 choice. The award isn't called "Player of the Year" or "Best Player." It is Most VALUABLE Player, and the meaning of "valuable" purposely has been left to each voter to decide.
While Trout didn't play in a game that was meaningful for the Angels since June, Betts and Ortiz got numerous clutch hits for a team that went from borderline being out of the playoffs to taking over a very competitive AL East. They faced different pressure than Trout did, and they came through.
So yes, Trout will be punished by voters for his teammates' crappiness, and I'd argue that it's perfectly "fair" for voters to cast their ballots with that in mind.
Pay the man, Shirley.
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I've never liked these "stat combo" accolades. Why would a player with Trout's combination be any more special than somebody who had 123 runs, 109 BB, 32 SB and hit .301? The round-figure versions of stat-combos are bad enough ... but 115 walks? Can't get much more arbitrary than that. I mean, if he only had 114 walks, would he have been some kind of slacker?
And I'm not picking on Trout (or you, because, as you said, you just got that stat combo from another source). I laughed when I heard that Nic Batum was one of only three NBA players to average 14.5 points, 6 rebounds and 5.5 assists last season. Um ... so?
Trout would be hot garbage if he drew less than 107 BB!
I always enjoy the "stat combos" when they make a big deal out of a guy being only the 4th player ever to join that exclusive club!!! With the other players being Hank Aaron!...Tito Landrum and Sixto Lezcano.
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It's a shame that Jonathan Villar didn't get his 20th home run. He missed out on a chance to be the 3rd ever player in MLB history to hit 20 home runs and steal 60 bases in one season. Now he's just the 3rd ever to hit 19 home runs with 60 stolen bases. (I actually don't know that as fact. Maybe there are tons of people who got 19+ homers and 60+ steals but can't get that elusive 20th home run.)
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Fangraphs WAR is the Supreme Leader of WAR.
easily explained.
Fangraphs may be the best baseball website in existence. I check it every single day.
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There is a very large "value" difference in winning your division vs not making the playoffs (Boston). Going from bad (74 wins) to worse (63 wins) (Angels) is actually a positive as you move up in the draft.
So Boston's season is ruined if a replacement player (or someone near there) takes Betts's place. The Angels, on the other hand, would have been better off had Trout taken the year off.
So again, Betts is rewarded because his teammates are better.
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So again, Betts is rewarded because his teammates are better.
Their numbers are almost identical. Recent precedent leads me to believe that yes, Betts will get that benefit.
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Their numbers are almost identical. Recent precedent leads me to believe that yes, Betts will get that benefit.
He undoubtedly will. The question is...should he?
I think the best argument is the clutch situations that Betts faced, but the question is did he actually perform better in those situations?
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He undoubtedly will. The question is...should he?
Voters are allowed to use their own criteria. In 1991, Cal Ripken was AL MVP on a 67-95 Orioles team.
Trout winning MVP wouldn't be unprecedented. But it seems winning is a bigger factor in recent years than it was 25 years ago.
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So again, Betts is rewarded because his teammates are better.
Yes. His teammates were better and his team was better. Therefore, Betts' numbers "mattered more," for lack of a better phrase. Trout's numbers, though incredible, aren't as "valuable" because his teammates were bad. Is that Trout's fault? No, but that's how it works.
Like I asked before, should the MVP be like a batting title and just go to the player with the highest WAR?
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Yes. His teammates were better and his team was better. Therefore, Betts' numbers "mattered more," for lack of a better phrase. Trout's numbers, though incredible, aren't as "valuable" because his teammates were bad. Is that Trout's fault? No, but that's how it works.
MVP = player with the best season. Really how is Betts more "valuable" than Trout? Because his team was better?
That's nonsense.
Like I asked before, should the MVP be like a batting title and just go to the player with the highest WAR?
That's where it should always start and usually end.
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MVP = player with the best season. Really how is Betts more "valuable" than Trout? Because his team was better?
That's nonsense.
So your opinion is that winning doesn't matter. That is fine. But the term "most valuable" is vague. Voters can vote using whatever criteria they want and aren't even required to justify it. My prediction is that the voters will take winning into account. If Trout had a year that much better than every other player, I think he'd win easily. But Betts has virtually identical numbers, therefore I think winning will be the tiebreaker.
That's where it should always start and usually end.
So you want to change the procedure? No vote, just crown the WAR leader. Now, who's algorithm are we using?
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MadBum vs Thor should be a great one tonight. If I'm the Cubs I am hoping that Syndergaard and the Mets pull it out.
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MadBum vs Thor should be a great one tonight. If I'm the Cubs I am hoping that Syndergaard and the Mets pull it out.
Yes and yes. Wish the Mets staff was healthy. They were incredible to watch in the Playoffs last year.
Wish the Indians staff was healthy as well.
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So you want to change the procedure? No vote, just crown the WAR leader. Now, who's algorithm are we using?
Never said that. Nice try.
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Yes and yes. Wish the Mets staff was healthy. They were incredible to watch in the Playoffs last year.
Wish the Indians staff was healthy as well.
+1,000 (as a Royals fan).
Watching this matchup is like the last 2 years anxiety crammed into one night.
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Never said that. Nice try.
What exactly are you tyring to say? Someone stated their opinion that Betts would be MVP and you are disagreeing. They made the point that being in contention matters, like it or not that is usually true. It seems like you are just arguing to argue.
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What exactly are you tyring to say? Someone stated their opinion that Betts would be MVP and you are disagreeing. They made the point that being in contention matters, like it or not that is usually true. It seems like you are just arguing to argue.
I don't think being in contention should matter. I find their arguments lacking.
Was that difficult for you to understand?
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I don't think being in contention should matter. I find their arguments lacking.
Was that difficult for you to understand?
The fact that you fail to understand the reality of the situation is difficult to understand. Bitching at people about something that isnt their doing and is evidently true is ridiculous, but as you already know everything, I'm sure you knew that.
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The fact that you fail to understand the reality of the situation is difficult to understand.
What reality? That baseball writers use poor metrics? I fully understand that.
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There isa difference between best player and most valuable player.
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There isa difference between best player and most valuable player.
The most valuable is the one who had the best season. The player who had the best season may not be the best player..which is best measured over multiple seasons.
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What reality? That baseball writers use poor metrics? I fully understand that.
Golly Sultan, if only everyone were as intelligent and enlightened as you are. Sigh, that is a dream world.
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MVP = player with the best season. Really how is Betts more "valuable" than Trout? Because his team was better?
That's nonsense.
That's where it should always start and usually end.
The Angels accomplished nothing. Their season's "value" was zero. How much value can any player give to a team if the sum of all the teams player's values is zero?
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The Angels accomplished nothing. Their season's "value" was zero. How much value can any player give to a team if the sum of all the teams player's values is zero?
Haha, multiply the players WAR by their teams winning percentage.
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The Angels accomplished nothing. Their season's "value" was zero. How much value can any player give to a team if the sum of all the teams player's values is zero?
Again, I am not punishing Trout because the front office got him worse teammates. You seem to want individuals awards to be partially based on whatever guys sitting on the bench with him are better. That's nonsense.
Trout had the better season. He is MVP.
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Golly Sultan, if only everyone were as intelligent and enlightened as you are.
It's the cross I must bear.
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MVP = player with the best season. Really how is Betts more "valuable" than Trout? Because his team was better?
That's nonsense.
That's where it should always start and usually end.
Why is it nonsense to say that the most valuable player on one of the best teams in MLB had more value than a player whose team finished 20+ games out of 1st place? Trout put up big numbers but what did they accomplish? His team was basically out of contention by mid-June. He wasn't playing for anything. That's not his fault, but I don't see how you can just ignore that his gaudy numbers basically came in glorified exhibition games and helped his team get no where.
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Why is it nonsense to say that the most valuable player on one of the best teams in MLB had more value than a player whose team finished 20+ games out of 1st place? Trout put up big numbers but what did they accomplish? His team was basically out of contention by mid-June. He wasn't playing for anything. That's not his fault, but I don't see how you can just ignore that his gaudy numbers basically came in glorified exhibition games and helped his team get no where.
Again, because I don't think he should be punished for having bad teammates. You do.
And really unless you can show me that Betts was somehow much "clutch," the "games that mean something" line is meaningless.
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Again, I am not punishing Trout because the front office got him worse teammates. You seem to want individuals awards to be partially based on whatever guys sitting on the bench with him are better. That's nonsense.
Trout had the better season. He is MVP.
Mike Trout had very slightly better numbers but his numbers had much less significance, much less impact, much less VALUE. That's not his fault but it is a fact.
Three run homers when your team is down 8-0 in the 7th inning are not as "valuable" as contributions that help win games that actually matter. Want nonsense? Looking at numbers without any context. Now that's some serious nonsense.
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Mike Trout had very slightly better numbers but his numbers had much less significance, much less impact, much less VALUE. That's not his fault but it is a fact.
Three run homers when your team is down 8-0 in the 7th inning are not as "valuable" as contributions that help win games that actually matter. Want nonsense? Looking at numbers without any context. Now that's some serious nonsense.
This is the last time I am going to say this.
Most valuable = Best season. That is how I view it. Others don't. I think they are wrong.
Trout had a better season. Not going to punish him because of his teammates. He should be MVP.
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This is the last time I am going to say this.
Thank God for small favors. We are all well aware of your opinion. But that is all it is. It carries no more weight than anyone else's. Stop pretending it does.
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Thank God for small favors. We are all well aware of your opinion. But that is all it is. It carries no more weight than anyone else's. Stop pretending it does.
If you don't like what I have to say or how I say it, you can ignore me.
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This is the last time I am going to say this.
Most valuable = Best season. That is how I view it. Others don't. I think they are wrong.
Trout had a better season. Not going to punish him because of his teammates. He should be MVP.
This is the last time I will say this. Most valuable does not just equal best numbers. Numbers are a large component of value but not the entire component. People who are incapable seeing numbers in context are myopic.
I'll be shocked if there are enough people full of enough nonsense to give Mike Trout this years MVP. Only happens if Betts and Ortiz spilt the "winning means something" vote.
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Again, because I don't think he should be punished for having bad teammates. You do.
And really unless you can show me that Betts was somehow much "clutch," the "games that mean something" line is meaningless.
So in your mind, a HR for a team that's 20 games out and is trailing 6-0 in the 8th inning means just as much as a game-winning HR for a team that's tied for 1st in late September?
"Clutch" stats aren't exact but here's a glimpse at a few...
RISP
Betts: 165 PA, 80 RBI, .355
Trout: 171 PA, 72 RBI, .328
2 Out RISP
Betts: 67 PA, 34 RBI, .404
Trout: 62 PA, 32 RBI, .306
Late & Close
Betts: 97 PA, .283/.320/.500
Trout: 98 PA, .257/.429/.405
Men on Base
Betts: 299 PA, 96 RBI, .327/.378/.575
Trout: 310 PA, 83 RBI, .311/.448/.527
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Now *that's* what I am talking about. Thanks Merritts. That is the type of stuff that would lead me to reconsider my position. It has to be better than "he was on a better team."
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So in your mind, a HR for a team that's 20 games out and is trailing 6-0 in the 8th inning means just as much as a game-winning HR for a team that's tied for 1st in late September?
"Clutch" stats aren't exact but here's a glimpse at a few...
RISP
Betts: 165 PA, 80 RBI, .355
Trout: 171 PA, 72 RBI, .328
2 Out RISP
Betts: 67 PA, 34 RBI, .404
Trout: 62 PA, 32 RBI, .306
Late & Close
Betts: 97 PA, .283/.320/.500
Trout: 98 PA, .257/.429/.405
Men on Base
Betts: 299 PA, 96 RBI, .327/.378/.575
Trout: 310 PA, 83 RBI, .311/.448/.527
The splits are the most important part of this post based on the "teammates sucking" conversation. If the people around you suck, the RBI chances won't be there...
Again, the splits support Betts, so its hard to argue against him based on above for "clutchness"
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Good stats, MM. I was going to look up some myself but I was too lazy. I did notice that Ortiz had a 1.017 OPS, 7 HR and 25 RBI in September, when the Red Sox surged to the division title. (Betts was .762-1-17 in September.)
I also think there are intangibles beyond numbers in determining "value." I remember Stargell won the MVP back in '79 despite only very good (not great) numbers because he was the unquestioned leader and "heart and soul" of a team that exceeded expectations. Some voters might feel the same about Ortiz this season, and I wouldn't blame them.
Sultan, you obviously are entitled to your opinion. Most MVP voters disagree with you, and that's OK. Unfortunately for you and others that share your viewpoint, they have the votes and you don't. So you'll have to be content arguing that everybody who disagrees with you is "wrong."
I wouldn't have voted for A-Rod the year he won MVP for a crappy team, wouldn't have voted for Dawson, wouldn't have voted for Banks, etc. That's my opinion -- and it also differed from how the majority of BBWAA voters cast their ballots those seasons.
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So in your mind, a HR for a team that's 20 games out and is trailing 6-0 in the 8th inning means just as much as a game-winning HR for a team that's tied for 1st in late September?
"Clutch" stats aren't exact but here's a glimpse at a few...
RISP
Betts: 165 PA, 80 RBI, .355
Trout: 171 PA, 72 RBI, .328
2 Out RISP
Betts: 67 PA, 34 RBI, .404
Trout: 62 PA, 32 RBI, .306
Late & Close
Betts: 97 PA, .283/.320/.500
Trout: 98 PA, .257/.429/.405
Men on Base
Betts: 299 PA, 96 RBI, .327/.378/.575
Trout: 310 PA, 83 RBI, .311/.448/.527
And who was batting behind both hitters for most of the year? Who provides better "protection"? Dustin Pedroia or Albert Pujols?
The numbers for Trout and Betts are close. Because of vastly different circumstances the "value" of those numbers isn't close. If two QBs have similar stats which one gets the MVP in the Super Bowl? How about the same situation in the NBA finals? There is simply more "value" in winning than losing. The best player is often on the losing team. The most valuable player almost never is.
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This is the last time I am going to say this.
Most valuable = Best season. That is how I view it. Others don't. I think they are wrong.
Trout had a better season. Not going to punish him because of his teammates. He should be MVP.
Of course it is a crime that the best player of our generation has only 1 MVP Award. It was also a crime that Ted Williams didn't win the MVP when he hit over .400 with 37 homers, 135 runs and an OBP of .553. Or when he won the Triple Crown twice without getting the award.
So, hypothetically, if the top two hitters in the league played for Colorado and SF (and the guy from the Rockies had slightly better numbers), you would vote for the guy from Colorado? Cuz he had the better season.
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So, hypothetically, if the top two hitters in the league played for Colorado and SF (and the guy from the Rockies had slightly better numbers), you would vote for the guy from Colorado? Cuz he had the better season.
Actually, WAR adjusts numbers for ballparks.
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Actually, WAR adjusts numbers for ballparks.
So highest WAR = MVP?
I am not arguing against Trout, BTW. He could well be going for his 5th MVP this year and would have been deserving every time.
Best player =Trout. Hands down for 5 years.
Most Valuable ???? I don't have a definitive answer. each person has their own criteria for the award. I just don't think a player can be the MOST valuable when his team doesn't even make the playoffs.
The game the other night affirmed something about Britton. His team would not have made the playoffs without him have. Is that "valuable"?
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So highest WAR = MVP?
I am not arguing against Trout, BTW. He could well be going for his 5th MVP this year and would have been deserving every time.
Best player =Trout. Hands down for 5 years.
Most Valuable ???? I don't have a definitive answer. each person has their own criteria for the award. I just don't think a player can be the MOST valuable when his team doesn't even make the playoffs.
The game the other night affirmed something about Britton. His team would not have made the playoffs without him have. Is that "valuable"?
No, highest WAR does NOT mean MVP. It's an imperfect (but likely the best we have) metric to indicate the best player. As I've argued this entire thread, many other factors enter the "most valuable" discussion. so, I'm with you.
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What a difference between the way Showalter "used" Britton and the way that Francona used Miller.
Francona did not rely on a script to make his move. He realized "This is the Reality of the Playoffs" and managed accordingly. Showalter managed based on "what might happen".
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What a difference between the way Showalter "used" Britton and the way that Francona used Miller.
Francona did not rely on a script to make his move. He realized "This is the Reality of the Playoffs" and managed accordingly. Showalter managed based on "what might happen".
While it doesn't have any bearing on your point (if any it just further's it), Francona has used Miller like that since he joined Cleveland.
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Go Tribe!
Carry on.
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While it doesn't have any bearing on your point (if any it just further's it), Francona has used Miller like that since he joined Cleveland.
Your point is well made, but it was the 1st time Francona had used him as early as the 5th inning.
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Funny seeing Luc go 1 for 12 with 0 walks and allowing a past ball that tied the game up and allowed the Blue Jays to send the game into extras and ultimately get the sweep while the Tribe sweep out the team many picked to win the World Series.
You know what they say about karma...
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Funny seeing Luc go 1 for 12 with 0 walks and allowing a past ball that tied the game up and allowed the Blue Jays to send the game into extras and ultimately get the sweep while the Tribe sweep out the team many picked to win the World Series.
You know what they say about karma...
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9Q1l6zIXFfcd-M4_jRovK08YL-tz3Jy7xI-s5fzIJWjJRqM2n9A)
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9Q1l6zIXFfcd-M4_jRovK08YL-tz3Jy7xI-s5fzIJWjJRqM2n9A)
Lucroy did let it go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9_mXndD_Z4
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Hahahahaha! Well played sir!
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Hahahahaha! Well played sir!
;)
Thank you! I'll be here all night folks.
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Funny seeing Luc go 1 for 12 with 0 walks and allowing a past ball that tied the game up and allowed the Blue Jays to send the game into extras and ultimately get the sweep while the Tribe sweep out the team many picked to win the World Series.
You know what they say about karma...
Actually, that is kind of funny. I'm sure there are probably other examples, but I can't recall a time when a player that factored heavily at the trade deadline was so visibly involved in his team's loss while the team that "missed out" continued on. I was really bummed out when that trade didn't go through.
I hope it continues with the Tribe. Cleveland: America's new "Title Town"*
*Does not apply to football.
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Actually, that is kind of funny. I'm sure there is probably other examples, but I can't recall a time when a player that factored heavily at the trade deadline was so visibly involved in his team's loss while the team that "missed out" continued on. I was really bummed out when that trade didn't go through.
I hope it continues with the Tribe. Cleveland: America's new "Title Town"*
*Does not apply to football.
I was hoping for the winner of the Indians/Red Sox series to play the Giants in the World Series.
Which means the Cubs will beat the Blue Jays in the World Series.
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How does Kershaw's pitching in the post-season affect his historical standing?
He has now basically pitched a half a season in the playoffs - I think he is up to 15 or 16 starts - and his ERA is pushing 5.00.
We have some smart baseball guys who post here regularly and I would be interested in opinions. Post season play is always taken into consideration when talking about NBA stars or QBs. Should Clayton's career use that criteria as well when looking at his place in baseball history?
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Article I wrote last night. Would be appreciated if you give it a read and give me a follow on twitter. Trying to get a bigger following. Any feedback would be appreciated just PM me ;D
http://www.sportsgazette.co.uk/section.php?aid=1743&sid=10 (http://www.sportsgazette.co.uk/section.php?aid=1743&sid=10)
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It's well written. I just don't believe that the reason for previous collapses were always due to "cracking under pressure." I do think a team built around a younger core tends not to bear the weight of history however.
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BTW, I was going to stay up to watch that Game 5 last night. But the 7th inning killed me - over an hour long. Maybe teams should be allowed only one pitching change per inning?
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It's well written. I just don't believe that the reason for previous collapses were always due to "cracking under pressure." I do think a team built around a younger core tends not to bear the weight of history however.
Appreciate it. I wanted to put in a line in there that said something along the lines of theyre too young and dumb to realize whats happening, but it didnt really fit and it was overplayed last year anyway.
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BTW, I was going to stay up to watch that Game 5 last night. But the 7th inning killed me - over an hour long. Maybe teams should be allowed only one pitching change per inning?
I've been thinking something similar watching these games. Maybe a pitcher has to face at least 3 batters? I don't mind lefty/righty strategy, or match ups, but it gets ridiculous.
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How does Kershaw's pitching in the post-season affect his historical standing?
He has now basically pitched a half a season in the playoffs - I think he is up to 15 or 16 starts - and his ERA is pushing 5.00.
We have some smart baseball guys who post here regularly and I would be interested in opinions. Post season play is always taken into consideration when talking about NBA stars or QBs. Should Clayton's career use that criteria as well when looking at his place in baseball history?
I think by the time he is done Kershaw will be widely considered one of the best all time pitchers in the history of baseball, if he isn't already. His postseason numbers certainly will hold him back though, if he doesn't turn it around (which he certainly has time to do as he is still just 28). I heard some interesting numbers on him, hopefully I am remembering them correctly, that he has pitched into the 6th surrendering 2 or fewer runs on short rest (gosh don't exactly remember...) 10 times I think, and it has fallen apart in the 7th.
There is no doubt that his numbers look ugly, but behind it is a guy that is always willing to do what his team needs him to do, go out and pitch, and pitch deep into games and almost always on short rest. I think he has been strained further by the lack of a quality pen (before this season) and being pushed to go deeper into games than he should.
Last night was pretty fantastic Mark Buehrle stuff out of him. I couldn't believe it when he was walking down to the pen.
That being said, I am a terrible person's opinion to have on this, as I am a huge fan of his, and I definitely look at this through rose (Dodger Blue?) colored glasses.
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BTW, I was going to stay up to watch that Game 5 last night. But the 7th inning killed me - over an hour long. Maybe teams should be allowed only one pitching change per inning?
Yeah, all those hits, and runs being scored (6 of the 7 runs in the game). How tedious. 2 boring home runs, a lousy 2 RBI triple, 3 BB, 3 singles and 3 Ks. Then the topper, is that there was just no energy at all in the stadium. How mundane.
The nerve of those teams, trying to have their best match-ups out there in a win or go home scenario. I mean, cmon. I don't have the attention span to watch that. And even more outrageous is that each team had the nerve to change pitchers just one time each for the rest of the game!
I further think that teams in basketball shouldn't be able to foul in the last 5 minutes, yeah it is a strategy that can have a have a significant impact on the game, but I'm a little tired. Football teams shouldn't be able to spike the ball or huddle up in the 4th quarter, I mean, again, strategy gets in the way of expedience. Those lazy ass golfers should have to really sprint up to their next shot. This leisurely walking BS has got to go! I got to take a nap!
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Yeah, all those hits, and runs being scored (6 of the 7 runs in the game). How tedious. 2 boring home runs, a lousy 2 RBI triple, 3 BB, 3 singles and 3 Ks. Then the topper, is that there was just no energy at all in the stadium. How mundane.
The nerve of those teams, trying to have their best match-ups out there in a win or go home scenario. I mean, cmon. I don't have the attention span to watch that. And even more outrageous is that each team had the nerve to change pitchers just one time each for the rest of the game!
I further think that teams in basketball shouldn't be able to foul in the last 5 minutes, yeah it is a strategy that can have a have a significant impact on the game, but I'm a little tired. Football teams shouldn't be able to spike the ball or huddle up in the 4th quarter, I mean, again, strategy gets in the way of expedience. Those lazy ass golfers should have to really sprint up to their next shot. This leisurely walking BS has got to go! I got to take a nap!
You mad bro?
4 hours and 32 minutes is way too long for a 9 inning baseball game. That's insane.
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BTW, I was going to stay up to watch that Game 5 last night. But the 7th inning killed me - over an hour long. Maybe teams should be allowed only one pitching change per inning?
Some managers tend to overthink/overcomplicate match-ups in the postseason. That can put relievers in unfamiliar situations in the most important games of the season. Roberts' strategy was unorthodox but it seemed like he had a plan - get as much as possible out of his best reliever and let his best pitcher close it out. Dusty looked like he was just sort of winging it. Dealing with pitchers has never been one of Dusty's strengths.
It could be interesting if MLB teams were given 3 timeouts per game (i.e. 3 mound visits). They could swap pitchers without using a timeout and time could be saved by simply letting the manager signal to pen and having a reliever come in as opposed to the manager making the slow walk out to the mound, taking the ball from the pitcher, patting him on the back, waiting for the reliever to get there, talking strategy with him, etc. Call for a sub and send him in there. If you want to talk to the reliever or the infielders, use one of your timeouts.
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You mad bro?
I don't understand the wanting to change the strategy and essence of the game for the sake of brevity. So much of baseball has become about analyzing the data and using that data to try to play better. So let's take some of the most basic data and throw it out because in the most important innings of the most important games. Teams try to use that data and play the best match-ups. Isn't that what they should do?
It doesn't make any sense to me. The thing that really kind of freaks me out is that Rob Manfred suggested that earlier this year, so, the fact that it could become reality is at least present. As a huge baseball fan I think it would be terrible because it would just make the game worse. I want to see the best match-ups. I want each team at their best in the most important situations, and being handcuffed by a 1 pitching change per inning rule (or something similar) would just make the quality of the game worse, and maybe not even faster.
That was a great, great baseball game last night. It really had just about everything you could hope for, sacrificing that to save 5 or 7 or 10 minutes... why?
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Yeah, all those hits, and runs being scored (6 of the 7 runs in the game). How tedious. 2 boring home runs, a lousy 2 RBI triple, 3 BB, 3 singles and 3 Ks. Then the topper, is that there was just no energy at all in the stadium. How mundane.
The nerve of those teams, trying to have their best match-ups out there in a win or go home scenario. I mean, cmon. I don't have the attention span to watch that. And even more outrageous is that each team had the nerve to change pitchers just one time each for the rest of the game!
I further think that teams in basketball shouldn't be able to foul in the last 5 minutes, yeah it is a strategy that can have a have a significant impact on the game, but I'm a little tired. Football teams shouldn't be able to spike the ball or huddle up in the 4th quarter, I mean, again, strategy gets in the way of expedience. Those lazy ass golfers should have to really sprint up to their next shot. This leisurely walking BS has got to go! I got to take a nap!
Sorry. I found it boring. I find fouling at the end of basketball games boring too and have suggested changes. Football games are rarely boring at the end of a close game because the pace of play is largely unaltered.
Just not interested in four hour, 30 some minute baseball games. Neither are a lot of other people.
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I don't understand the wanting to change the strategy and essence of the game for the sake of brevity. So much of baseball has become about analyzing the data and using that data to try to play better. So let's take some of the most basic data and throw it out because in the most important innings of the most important games. Teams try to use that data and play the best match-ups. Isn't that what they should do?
It doesn't make any sense to me. The thing that really kind of freaks me out is that Rob Manfred suggested that earlier this year, so, the fact that it could become reality is at least present. As a huge baseball fan I think it would be terrible because it would just make the game worse. I want to see the best match-ups. I want each team at their best in the most important situations, and being handcuffed by a 1 pitching change per inning rule (or something similar) would just make the quality of the game worse, and maybe not even faster.
That was a great, great baseball game last night. It really had just about everything you could hope for, sacrificing that to save 5 or 7 or 10 minutes... why?
It's not the "brevity." It is the pace of play. I'm sorry but when a game starts just after 7, and isn't close to being over at 10:30, the pace is too slow. In the seventh inning for instance, I believe there were 57 total pitches. The inning itself took 66 minutes. Less than one pitch a minute?
Remember that baseball used to have a much quicker pace. In my lifetime it had a quicker pace.
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I don't understand the wanting to change the strategy and essence of the game for the sake of brevity. So much of baseball has become about analyzing the data and using that data to try to play better. So let's take some of the most basic data and throw it out because in the most important innings of the most important games. Teams try to use that data and play the best match-ups. Isn't that what they should do?
It doesn't make any sense to me. The thing that really kind of freaks me out is that Rob Manfred suggested that earlier this year, so, the fact that it could become reality is at least present. As a huge baseball fan I think it would be terrible because it would just make the game worse. I want to see the best match-ups. I want each team at their best in the most important situations, and being handcuffed by a 1 pitching change per inning rule (or something similar) would just make the quality of the game worse, and maybe not even faster.
That was a great, great baseball game last night. It really had just about everything you could hope for, sacrificing that to save 5 or 7 or 10 minutes... why?
5 or 7 or 10 minutes? The average MLB game this season was 2 hours and 56 minutes. Last night's baseball game was 1 hour and 36 minutes longer than that. And this is a 4-3, 9 inning baseball game. Not some 15-14 17 inning game with 40 hits combined. 15 combined hits, 7 combined runs, 9 innings. 4 hours and 32 minutes. That is insane.
That's the problem for baseball. As you say, it might've been a great, great baseball game, but unless you're a fan of one of those two teams, or a team they're going to be going up against in the next round, chances are you don't even know how it ended. I love Playoff baseball, but there's no chance I'm staying up to watch a game that started at 7 and ends at nearly midnight on a night I have to go to work the next day. I would love to sit and watch the game from start to finish, but not if it's going on 5 hours. No way. Heck, even if it's a noon game on a Saturday. There's no chance I'm going to sit and watch baseball from 12 to 5, or for any 5 straight hours of any day.
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I've been thinking something similar watching these games. Maybe a pitcher has to face at least 3 batters? I don't mind lefty/righty strategy, or match ups, but it gets ridiculous.
I think there should be a 24-second clock for each pitch, with bats that explode if the time expires.
I don't like the NFL nor hockey; all I watch is MLB Extra Innings and MU basketball. Every year when the playoffs roll around, casual fans speak up about what needs to be changed. These criticisms, in part, brought in the institution of 2 wild card games, interleague play, replay challenges, and other modifications I really don't care for.
I have a a shirt which reads, "Baseball isn't boring. You are."
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Those lazy ass golfers should have to really sprint up to their next shot. This leisurely walking BS has got to go! I got to take a nap!
I would legit pay if to watch if they changed golf to a race to putting the ball in the hole.
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I think there should be a 24-second clock for each pitch, with bats that explode if the time expires.
I don't like the NFL nor hockey; all I watch is MLB Extra Innings and MU basketball. Every year when the playoffs roll around, casual fans speak up about what needs to be changed. These criticisms, in part, brought in the institution of 2 wild card games, interleague play, replay challenges, and other modifications I really don't care for.
I have a a shirt which reads, "Baseball isn't boring. You are."
You actually hate the wildcard (The 3 best records came from one division last year...) interleague play and replay's? As a baseball player and true fan, I am absolutely shocked by you.
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Okay Cubs fans, we basically got our wish and get the Dodgers (I wanted the Mets last year so that doesn't mean much). On paper it looks good. They have essentially no rotation, and Kershaw hasn't looked 100%. If he doesn't throw until game 3, we need to jump on the first two.
Would also like to see them put Zastryzny on the roster over Grimm to get as many lefties as we can in the hopper.
Hopefully a few bats wake up. Rizzo's AB's were a lot better in game 4, and if he can't turn it around, things won't get any easy for Bryant.
Should be a fun series!
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I think there should be a 24-second clock for each pitch, with bats that explode if the time expires.
I don't like the NFL nor hockey; all I watch is MLB Extra Innings and MU basketball. Every year when the playoffs roll around, casual fans speak up about what needs to be changed. These criticisms, in part, brought in the institution of 2 wild card games, interleague play, replay challenges, and other modifications I really don't care for.
I have a a shirt which reads, "Baseball isn't boring. You are."
Actually, almost all of these modifications were for the same reason. More $$$$ in the owner's pockets. Fans almost never figure into the equation. As a matter of fact, Bud Selig engineered the ouster of Fay Vincent as commissioner because Fay thought fan interests should be considered in the bargaining process.
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Okay Cubs fans, we basically got our wish and get the Dodgers (I wanted the Mets last year so that doesn't mean much). On paper it looks good. They have essentially no rotation, and Kershaw hasn't looked 100%. If he doesn't throw until game 3, we need to jump on the first two.
Would also like to see them put Zastryzny on the roster over Grimm to get as many lefties as we can in the hopper.
Hopefully a few bats wake up. Rizzo's AB's were a lot better in game 4, and if he can't turn it around, things won't get any easy for Bryant.
Should be a fun series!
I actually slightly preferred the Nats but it was a coin toss.
Agree about Zastryzny but not at the expense of Grimm. I would consider going with 12 pitchers instead of 11 and leave LaStella off.
Considering LA's struggles against LHP, game 1 a big one to get considering the Lester/Maeda match up.
Some are saying Kershaw could still go in game 2. Part of me wonders if that might actually be better for the Cubs considering he just threw 110 pitches on short-rest and then came back in last night. Supposedly it was his side day but he threw a ton of pitches in the bullpen. Here's hoping he's not quite himself.
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I actually slightly preferred the Nats but it was a coin toss.
Agree about Zastryzny but not at the expense of Grimm. I would consider going with 12 pitchers instead of 11 and leave LaStella off.
Considering LA's struggles against LHP, game 1 a big one to get considering the Lester/Maeda match up.
Some are saying Kershaw could still go in game 2. Part of me wonders if that might actually be better for the Cubs considering he just threw 110 pitches on short-rest and then came back in last night. Supposedly it was his side day but he threw a ton of pitches in the bullpen. Here's hoping he's not quite himself.
I haven't trusted Grimm in awhile. I know he was huge last year against St. Louis, but at this point I'd just as soon see Hammel come out of the pen to get an out.
Good thought about Kershaw throwing short... maybe it's better if they tried that.... or we can just throw Arrieta against him and he can hit another 3 run jack. Best case scenario last night would have been Dodgers winning but Kershaw having to throw 40 pitches in the 9th, and getting the final out in a 10 pitch bases loaded AB.
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Come on guys, can't we all agree that we want to see the "Doyers" win so that we can see what new username Chicos/hoopaloop/oregonwarrior/./bma77 comes up with to come on here and get all squeamish? Right? Let's go Dodgers, right guys?!
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I haven't trusted Grimm in awhile. I know he was huge last year against St. Louis, but at this point I'd just as soon see Hammel come out of the pen to get an out.
Good thought about Kershaw throwing short... maybe it's better if they tried that.... or we can just throw Arrieta against him and he can hit another 3 run jack. Best case scenario last night would have been Dodgers winning but Kershaw having to throw 40 pitches in the 9th, and getting the final out in a 10 pitch bases loaded AB.
Yeah, I definitely wanted to see the game last night go into extras and have Kershaw throw more pitches than he did.
I still like Grimm's arm - he was pretty great for a stretch in the 2nd half. I think with our versatility and all of LA's left-handed pitching we can do without LaStella. I don't really see them making any other changes to the roster. If Grimm was left off I wouldn't hate it. Will be interesting to see which direction they go.
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You actually hate the wildcard (The 3 best records came from one division last year...) interleague play and replay's? As a baseball player and true fan, I am absolutely shocked by you.
Interleague play is awful and should come to and end once the leagues each get 16 teams.
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Interleague play is awful and should come to and end once the leagues each get 16 teams.
Why?
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Good write-up on the Dodgers "Road Map" last night.
http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2016/10/14/dave-roberts-trusted-the-process-last-night-until-he-didnt/ (http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2016/10/14/dave-roberts-trusted-the-process-last-night-until-he-didnt/)
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I'm with VBMG. Give me Zastryzny instead of La Stella (or Coghlan). Word is that Montero's back issues are flaring up again, so he may be the odd man out.
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Montero will be the one dropped if they decide to bring on another pitcher. Ross is the best catcher, while contreras has more speed and power then Montero. And they really don't need 3 catchers.
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Montero will be the one dropped if they decide to bring on another pitcher. Ross is the best catcher, while contreras has more speed and power then Montero. And they really don't need 3 catchers.
I do like Montero for Arrieta's starts but at a certain point, there is the Mendoza line, and its not like Montero has been a stud defender this year either.
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I do like Montero for Arrieta's starts but at a certain point, there is the Mendoza line, and its not like Montero has been a stud defender this year either.
I think Ross catching Arrieta is perfectly fine. I would also be alright with dropping Miggy if he is not healthy.
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I actually slightly preferred the Nats but it was a coin toss.
Agree about Zastryzny but not at the expense of Grimm. I would consider going with 12 pitchers instead of 11 and leave LaStella off.
Considering LA's struggles against LHP, game 1 a big one to get considering the Lester/Maeda match up.
Some are saying Kershaw could still go in game 2. Part of me wonders if that might actually be better for the Cubs considering he just threw 110 pitches on short-rest and then came back in last night. Supposedly it was his side day but he threw a ton of pitches in the bullpen. Here's hoping he's not quite himself.
Getting ready to head out to the game but thought I'd pat myself on the back for the roster move.
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Getting ready to head out to the game but thought I'd pat myself on the back for the roster move.
Go ahead and pat yourself on the back now. Next week, you'll be slapping your head. :-\
Remember, this is still the Cubbies.
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Andrew Miller is simply off the charts right now. Untouchable.
Simply the best reliever in the game right now.
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Andrew Miller is simply off the charts right now. Untouchable.
Simply the best reliever in the game right now.
You only say that because we never saw Britton to be able to compare.
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Go ahead and pat yourself on the back now. Next week, you'll be slapping your head. :-\
Remember, this is still the Cubbies.
Nope. That's a crock of sh*t.
If they get beat they get beat. No curses, no bs.
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You only say that because we never saw Britton to be able to compare.
Well done.
These guys - Francona, Maddon, Roberts - are showing Showalter how you "should" manage in the post-season.
Seriously, though, Miller has been the best reliever in baseball for the last three years.
In the post season in 5 series, he is untouchable - averaging over 15 k/9, 0.00 ERA and a WHIP under .500
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/zach-brittons-not-so-sure-about-that-game-used-postseason-jersey-for-sale-022141091.html
Britton is pretty funny.
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Nope. That's a crock of sh*t.
If they get beat they get beat. No curses, no bs.
So, you'd spell his name Kershaw, not Curseshaw? :P
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Montero will be the one dropped if they decide to bring on another pitcher. Ross is the best catcher, while contreras has more speed and power then Montero. And they really don't need 3 catchers.
I guess it's a good thing Maddon disagreed or the Cubbies might be down 2-0 right now.
And for those who thought Kershaw might have nothing left in the tank ... vroom vroom.
Curious to see if the Dodgers bring him back for Game 5 on 3 days rest.
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I guess it's a good thing Maddon disagreed or the Cubbies might be down 2-0 right now.
And for those who thought Kershaw might have nothing left in the tank ... vroom vroom.
Curious to see if the Dodgers bring him back for Game 5 on 3 days rest.
If they are down 3-1 I think he absolutely throws in Game 5.
I like the Cubs haters getting all loud about curses and whatnot after they lose 1-0 to the best pitcher in baseball over the last 5 years. The bats need to come alive, but they have Arrieta vs Rich Hill on Tuesday to get back on the home field footing, all is not lost.
Despite all of that, Baez is absolutely electric. My god is he fun to watch.
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It was a joke dude.
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It was a joke dude.
It wasn't directed at you. I saw enough chirping on other social media. People are crazy.
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Why?
Interleague took away from the specialty of the All-Star Game and World Series. You could argue it also contributed to the home field advantage rule in the All-Star game as well. There also was no issue with the DH when both leagues were separate.
My main complaint though is from a scheduling standpoint. If everyone played everybody I wouldn't mind as much, but the whole natural rival thing is a joke. An example would be the Cardinals have to play a good Royal team while the Cubs get to play a weaker White Sox team.
The only thing Bud did right was the three division setup. Nearly everything else I disagree with.
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Interleague took away from the specialty of the All-Star Game and World Series.
This is where I think interleague really sucks. Let's say the Cubs play the Indians in the '16 World Series. You'd only have to go back one season to view a history between the two teams, (Arrieta lost to Bauer at Wrigley 6-0 in June of '15). The uniqueness of the match-up is completely gone.
I know all other sports play across leagues, but I don't like other sports.
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I don't mean this as a shot, but it does bug me that no crowd in baseball gets more excited for a soft pop up to the outfield like a Wrigley crowd. Every fly ball off the bat isn't going out to Waveland.
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I don't mean this as a shot, but it does bug me that no crowd in baseball gets more excited for a soft pop up to the outfield like a Wrigley crowd. Every fly ball off the bat isn't going out to Waveland.
I went to a game at Fenway two years ago, and actually thought they were worse. Excited people get excited.
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I don't mean this as a shot, but it does bug me that no crowd in baseball gets more excited for a soft pop up to the outfield like a Wrigley crowd. Every fly ball off the bat isn't going out to Waveland.
No, Miller Park is worse overall. Last night there were a lot of idiots last night though, I was fooled on that AR uppercut swing.
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I don't mean this as a shot, but it does bug me that no crowd in baseball gets more excited for a soft pop up to the outfield like a Wrigley crowd. Every fly ball off the bat isn't going out to Waveland.
I've always thought the same about the Wrigley crowd, but I noticed the San Francisco crowd was doing the same during the NLCS.
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It could be I didn't pay close enough attention to other games, but last night seemed over the top. I'll have to watch other cities to see if it's similar.
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I grew up a WGN watching, Jack Brickhouse listening, Dave Kingman, 23-22 games watching Cubs fan. I was always more of a Tigers fan, though. My loyalty to the Cubs disintegrated in the autumn of my freshman year, 1984, when I met real Chicago fans. My dislike of Cub nation has only been reinforced by my trips to Wrigley, the world's biggest outdoor sports bar where people are there to be seen and not to actually watch baseball, as well as the Bartman debacle. I am honestly torn between wanting to see the curse ended and the dread of what Cubs nation will be like if it does. You thought the Red Sox nation was insufferable when their curse ended? Mouse nuts compared to what will happen if the Cubs break their curse.
So, yes, Cub fan was wetting himself over every medium deep fly ball last night.
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I grew up a WGN watching, Jack Brickhouse listening, Dave Kingman, 23-22 games watching Cubs fan. I was always more of a Tigers fan, though. My loyalty to the Cubs disintegrated in the autumn of my freshman year, 1984, when I met real Chicago fans. My dislike of Cub nation as only been reinforced by my trips to Wrigley, the world's biggest outdoor sports gay bar where people are there to be seen and not to actually watch baseball, as well as the Bartman debacle. I am honestly torn between wanting to see the curse ended and the dread of what Cubs nation will be like if it does. You thought the Red Sox nation was insufferable when their curse ended? Mouse nuts compared to what will happen if the Cubs break their curse.
So, yes, Cub fan was wetting himself over every medium deep fly ball last night.
FIFY.
Relax people it's a joke.
All teams' fans go nuts over routine fly balls to the outfield. It happens in literally every stadium. But even Kershaw thought he might've given up a home run to Baez last night.
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I grew up a WGN watching, Jack Brickhouse listening, Dave Kingman, 23-22 games watching Cubs fan. I was always more of a Tigers fan, though. My loyalty to the Cubs disintegrated in the autumn of my freshman year, 1984, when I met real Chicago fans. My dislike of Cub nation has only been reinforced by my trips to Wrigley, the world's biggest outdoor sports bar where people are there to be seen and not to actually watch baseball, as well as the Bartman debacle. I am honestly torn between wanting to see the curse ended and the dread of what Cubs nation will be like if it does. You thought the Red Sox nation was insufferable when their curse ended? Mouse nuts compared to what will happen if the Cubs break their curse.
So, yes, Cub fan was wetting himself over every medium deep fly ball last night.
The narrative that Cubs fans aren't real fans aren't is tired and simply not true. Every fan base has its share of idiots and Wrigley certainly plays a part in attendance. On the whole the fans want to win, they care, and are knowledgeable.
FIFY.
Relax people it's a joke.
All teams' fans go nuts over routine fly balls to the outfield. It happens in literally every stadium. But even Kershaw thought he might've given up a home run to Baez last night.
Maybe next time focus on making the joke, oh, I don't know, funny. That has nothing to do with sensitivity. It was just stupid, and not in a clever way.
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The narrative that Cubs fans aren't real fans aren't is tired and simply not true. Every fan base has its share of idiots and Wrigley certainly plays a part in attendance. On the whole the fans want to win, they care, and are knowledgeable.
Maybe next time focus on making the joke, oh, I don't know, funny. That has nothing to do with sensitivity. It was just stupid, and not in a clever way.
Oh.
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Oh.
*Me reading the x out and insert*
really? we're going there?
*Me after reading "relax people it's a joke*
Wow, i'm way too serious. That makes it even funnier.
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Interesting hearing the mic'd up umpire tonight pronounce there to be too much blood from Bauer's torn stitches. What is "too much"? What would have been an acceptable amount? If there was a spot of blood on the ball, wouldn't it make it easier to pick up the spin? Is there a clear directive in the MLB rules?
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Is there a clear directive in the MLB rules?
Yes. The ball cannot be discolored.
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If they are down 3-1 I think he absolutely throws in Game 5.
I like the Cubs haters getting all loud about curses and whatnot after they lose 1-0 to the best pitcher in baseball over the last 5 years. The bats need to come alive, but they have Arrieta vs Rich Hill on Tuesday to get back on the home field footing, all is not lost.
Despite all of that, Baez is absolutely electric. My god is he fun to watch.
Baez reminds me of a young, pre-spit-in-face Robbie Alomar.
It would be something if Rich Hill beats the Cubs once or twice given his history there. Cubs need Good Arrieta to show up, not Mediocre Arrieta.
The Cubs are the far superior team and I expect them to reach and then win the World Series.
Wow. I can't believe I just typed that last paragraph.
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Baez reminds me of a young, pre-spit-in-face Robbie Alomar.
It would be something if Rich Hill beats the Cubs once or twice given his history there. Cubs need Good Arrieta to show up, not Mediocre Arrieta.
The Cubs are the far superior team and I expect them to reach and then win the World Series.
Wow. I can't believe I just typed that last paragraph.
If the Cubs' bats finally start to wake up, even if it's Mediocre Arrieta, they'll win easily.
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If the Cubs' bats finally start to wake up, even if it's Mediocre Arrieta, they'll win easily.
OK ... but the other team also has good pitchers. After scoring 8000 runs in the ALDS, the Blue Jays are finding that out, too.
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OK ... but the other team also has good pitchers. After scoring 8000 runs in the ALDS, the Blue Jays are finding that out, too.
Except the Dodgers kinda don't past Kershaw. Urias will probably be good, but isn't yet.
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Long ways to go, but a slow burn of a narrative has potential to play itself out...
The player that might cost the Cubs the World Series isn't even on their playoff roster.
Did the Cubs make a gigantic mistake in not trading Schwarber for Miller?
This will be interesting to see play out, as the Tribe inch closer to winning the pennant and as the Cubs remaining season unfolds.
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Except the Dodgers kinda don't past Kershaw. Urias will probably be good, but isn't yet.
Ummm, maybe you didn't notice the season Rich Hill has had. Or maybe you havent noticed what has happened to the Indian's rotation.
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I grew up a WGN watching, Jack Brickhouse listening, Dave Kingman, 23-22 games watching Cubs fan. I was always more of a Tigers fan, though. My loyalty to the Cubs disintegrated in the autumn of my freshman year, 1984, when I met real Chicago fans. My dislike of Cub nation has only been reinforced by my trips to Wrigley, the world's biggest outdoor sports bar where people are there to be seen and not to actually watch baseball, as well as the Bartman debacle. I am honestly torn between wanting to see the curse ended and the dread of what Cubs nation will be like if it does. You thought the Red Sox nation was insufferable when their curse ended? Mouse nuts compared to what will happen if the Cubs break their curse.
You got the last laugh in '84. And the first laugh, what were they like, 35-5 to open the season?
Hope your future run-in with Cubs fans is much better. I, for one, can't stand fans of any sport or team who have no problem sharing their opinion, but don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about. I enjoy watching the Blackhawks from time-to-time, but I only watch a few regular season games and the postseason. I didn't grow up watching the sport, and have no zero knowledge of the strategy. Therefore, I'll never attempt to insert myself in a conversation about hockey, but I've seen plenty of others that will all teams and sports.
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It could be I didn't pay close enough attention to other games, but last night seemed over the top. I'll have to watch other cities to see if it's similar.
Much like when Jordan was leading the Bulls to titles, postseason crowds are very different than regular season crowds. The guys sitting in the first few rows behind home plate aren't your average, everyday, life-long Cub fan. They're typically someone who knows someone or some rich guy who dropped huge money to attend "an event." The lifers are more than likely in the upper deck or the bleachers.
Case in point, my brother's college friend (a doctor) attended Game 1 with his wife. He's from the east coast, has never shown much interest in baseball and his wife (a native Chicagoan) apparently asked if "The Penguin" still played for the Cubs. Yes, that would be 68yo Ron Cey who last played for the Cubs in 1986.
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Long ways to go, but a slow burn of a narrative has potential to play itself out...
The player that might cost the Cubs the World Series isn't even on their playoff roster.
Did the Cubs make a gigantic mistake in not trading Schwarber for Miller?
This will be interesting to see play out, as the Tribe inch closer to winning the pennant and as the Cubs remaining season unfolds.
No, as amazing as Miller is, the Cubs did not make a mistake in not trading Schwarber for him, in my opinion.
I've been stunned with Cleveland's dominance so far. Aside from Kluber and the back end of their pen, their starting pitching does not scare me with Salazar and Carrasco out. I'd love to face Josh Tomlin.
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I think Toronto gave up this series, Cleveland hasn't taken it.
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I think Toronto gave up this series, Cleveland hasn't taken it.
Because they couldn't do anything with Kluber, Miller, Tomlin, Allen and the rest of the Indian's bullpen? Cleveland's decimated pitching staff gets big credit from me.
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I think Toronto gave up this series, Cleveland hasn't taken it.
You may be right. As an Indians fan, I'm glad that Boston gave up too.
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Because they couldn't do anything with Kluber, Miller, Tomlin, Allen and the rest of the Indian's bullpen? Cleveland's decimated pitching staff gets big credit from me.
Did you watch Tomlin pitch? Toronto thought they were going to tee him up, which makes sense because he's given up the third most homers in the MLB. instead they turned it into an overswinging crapshow and grounded everything out. Maybe it was the shadows or the umpire, depends on that Toronto excuse you want to believe.
Then they were given a gift last night with Bauer's finger. Failed to capitalize on both opportunities, instead their second best player turned to excuses after the second game. They were toast after that.
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No, as amazing as Miller is, the Cubs did not make a mistake in not trading Schwarber for him, in my opinion.
I've been stunned with Cleveland's dominance so far. Aside from Kluber and the back end of their pen, their starting pitching does not scare me with Salazar and Carrasco out. I'd love to face Josh Tomlin.
The narrative is more macro than that though. It'll judge Miller/Chapman's performances this postseason, the reality that Schwarber gives you nothing during this run, Chapman potentially leaving this offseason with no compensation back, Torres tearing it up in AFL, and Miller signed through next year (with compensation if you lose him).
A lot to come, but Miller is your ALCS MVP.
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Case in point, my brother's college friend (a doctor) attended Game 1 with his wife. He's from the east coast, has never shown much interest in baseball and his wife (a native Chicagoan) apparently asked if "The Penguin" still played for the Cubs. Yes, that would be 68yo Ron Cey who last played for the Cubs in 1986.
That's a pretty good representation of most Cub fans. ;)
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That's a pretty good representation of most Cub fans. ;)
Typical White Sox fan plus a Badger to boot. Disgusting. Cubs Twitter did a nice job of putting him in his place.
(http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/styles/marquee_large_2x/public/2016/10/17/cubs-frank-kaminsky-steve-bartman-jersey.jpg?itok=_khEA08F)
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The narrative is more macro than that though. It'll judge Miller/Chapman's performances this postseason, the reality that Schwarber gives you nothing during this run, Chapman potentially leaving this offseason with no compensation back, Torres tearing it up in AFL, and Miller signed through next year (with compensation if you lose him).
A lot to come, but Miller is your ALCS MVP.
Sure, there are a lot of moving pieces. I still don't trade 5+ years of Schwarber for 2 of Miller.
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Typical White Sox fan plus a Badger to boot. Disgusting. Cubs Twitter did a nice job of putting him in his place.
(http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/styles/marquee_large_2x/public/2016/10/17/cubs-frank-kaminsky-steve-bartman-jersey.jpg?itok=_khEA08F)
As a die hard Cubs fan growing up on the South Side, I learned long ago it's not worth the argument from either side. There are fans on both sides of the city I can have intelligent conversations with, but the Cubs vs. Chi Sox is an argument I won't have, and there are more than enough dummies cheering for both teams that always seem more concerned with how the other team is doing.
A friend posted something to facebook the other day about how it's officially impossible for the Cubs to outplay the '05 Sox 11-1 postseason. Shucks, so the Cubs should just go home now. What's the point if you can't outperform another team's eleven year-ago postseason run?
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As a die hard Cubs fan growing up on the South Side, I learned long ago it's not worth the argument from either side. There are fans on both sides of the city I can have intelligent conversations with, but the Cubs vs. Chi Sox is an argument I won't have, and there are more than enough dummies cheering for both teams that always seem more concerned with how the other team is doing.
A friend posted something to facebook the other day about how it's officially impossible for the Cubs to outplay the '05 Sox 11-1 postseason. Shucks, so the Cubs should just go home now. What's the point if you can't outperform another team's eleven year-ago postseason run?
It's not and I know Buckchuckler was being sarcastic (mostly) so I was just sending a little back his way. On the whole though, I do think Sox fans are more concerned about the Cubs than vice-versa.
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It's not and I know Buckchuckler was being sarcastic (mostly) so I was just sending a little back his way. On the whole though, I do think Sox fans are more concerned about the Cubs than vice-versa.
I agree with you on the bold. There is a population of Cubs fans that do the same though. I want to shake them and tell them to worry about the Cubs, and if there's another team to give a damn about, make it the Cardinals.
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I agree with you on the bold. There is a population of Cubs fans that do the same though. I want to shake them and tell them to worry about the Cubs, and if there's another team to give a damn about, make it the Cardinals.
I went to a Sox game in the late 90s and Frank Thomas hit a walk-off HR in the bottom of the 9th. On the way out of the stadium, the crowd in the concourse chanted "Sammy Sucks!" In case you were wondering, the Sox beat the Twins that night.
Brewers fans aren't very far behind Sox fans in terms of the concern about the Cubs.
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I don't mean this as a shot, but it does bug me that no crowd in baseball gets more excited for a soft pop up to the outfield like a Wrigley crowd. Every fly ball off the bat isn't going out to Waveland.
I actually have a theory on this.
Maybe 30% of the seats or so in the lower level at Wrigley are blocked by the upper deck. Therefore when these people see a ball hit in the air all they see is the ball take off the bat before being obstructed by the upper deck.
That is my best guess, but as PTM said you hear that at Brewer games too where the upper deck doesn't block the lower level so who knows.
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It's not and I know Buckchuckler was being sarcastic (mostly) so I was just sending a little back his way. On the whole though, I do think Sox fans are more concerned about the Cubs than vice-versa.
I certainly think this is true, and honestly I think it has a lot to do with media coverage. Especially when the Trib owned the Cubs, there was not nearly equal representation, heck it was probably more skewed than 60-40. Even when the Sox were just objectively better than the Cubs, the media attention was always on the Cubs. I remember stories in the Trib about why Sox fans should love certain Cub teams. I don't need a corporate shill newspaper telling me what team I should like, much less love. Crap like that makes Sox fans more defensive.
I remember Frank Thomas being completely villanized by the Trib, and Sammy Sosa completely lionized. It is really annoying. The only place you could get even decent Sox coverage was the Southtown. I remember Cub fans telling me how much better Kerry Wood was than Mark Buehrle. ALL THE TIME. How much better Kerry Wood was than any pitcher to ever touch a baseball actually ( I have a friend that is a Cubs season ticket holder that told me this year that Wood is the best pitcher the Cubs have ever had-- Hell Arrieta is already better! Cmon!) And having exactly one date in history to make their claim. Sure, he had better stuff, but he wasn't better on the mound. Then add in the recent crap about how the Sox should trade Sale to the Cubs for a package built around Jorge Soler. It makes the brain hurt, and makes Sox fans a little more defensive.
I know I was always questioned throughout grade school and high school about how I could possibly be a Sox fan. This is how it works when your fandom falls in the minority. People were incredulous, "How could you be a Sox fan???" and then when I tried to talk baseball with them and to state my positions, I found many of these "fans," that could hardly believe I was a Sox fan, were completely illiterate to basic baseball (not saying all Cub fans are like this, but certainly the ones like that are the most obnoxious). These kinds of experiences make Sox fans a little more defensive.
I would liken it to how many of our fellow MU alums from the state of Wisconsin, really really hate UW. The Badgers are in their faces all the time. And everyone thinks you are some sort of freakoid because you don't like the Badgers. That is what it is like to be a Sox fan in Chicago.
The Cubs are in your face all the time. You are called out for your fanhood all the time. Your sanity is questioned, and lets be real here, it isn't like the Cubs are the Yankees or anything, for most of my life they have been at best a mediocre franchise. And they are completely ubiquitous. They are front and center, they are in your face all the time. I bet throughout High School and Jr. High, I was outnumbered 15-1 Cub to Sox fans. I was never one to shy away from a conflict, so I always held my ground against assaults on my team. Since I have had to defend my decision, and my team since I was about 5 years old, yeah, it has made me hate the other team.
I have some friends that are great baseball fans that happen to be Cub fans. I love talking baseball with them. Some of the best fans I know. I could almost ( :D)be happy for them if the Cubs won. I remember hoping that they would experience it after the Sox won. But the city would be a complete crap show forever if they won. Cub fans now make fun of Sox fans for holding onto 2005, well if the Cubs win, it will make the press and pub the 85 Bears get look like bush league BS.
So do Sox fans hate the Cubs more. Yes, yes we sure do. I think we have earned that right. The Sox aren't even an after thought to Cub fans. While Sox fans get beat over the head with the Cubs every day.
Sorry for the book. Lots of mental anguish. :D
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I actually have a theory on this.
Maybe 30% of the seats or so in the lower level at Wrigley are blocked by the upper deck. Therefore when these people see a ball hit in the air all they see is the ball take off the bat before being obstructed by the upper deck.
That is my best guess, but as PTM said you hear that at Brewer games too where the upper deck doesn't block the lower level so who knows.
I agree with this, the lower bowl at Wrigley has some uniqueness to it with sightlines, especially if you're in the 200's sections.
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I know I was always questioned throughout grade school and high school about how I could possibly be a Sox fan. This is how it works when your fandom falls in the minority. People were incredulous, "How could you be a Sox fan???" and then when I tried to talk baseball with them and to state my positions, I found many of these "fans," that could hardly believe I was a Sox fan, were completely illiterate to basic baseball (not saying all Cub fans are like this, but certainly the ones like that are the most obnoxious). These kinds of experiences make Sox fans a little more defensive.
This isn't specific to Cubs fans. The most obnoxious fans of ANY fanbase are usually the most clueless.
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This isn't specific to Cubs fans. The most obnoxious fans of ANY fanbase are usually the most clueless.
Probably mostly true, though, I like to think I am a pretty well informed Sox fan, and as many here (dare I guess VBMG??) can attest, I am pretty damn obnoxious!
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As a Cubs fan, I enjoy mocking the White Sox, but ultimately enjoy their success.
The only reason I enjoy mocking them is to return crap from their fans.
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As a Cubs fan, I enjoy mocking the White Sox, but ultimately enjoy their success.
The only reason I enjoy mocking them is to return crap from their fans.
I mean, that just makes things more fun right? When both teams are good (boy has that been awhile...) it is really fun to engage in the smack talk back and forth. And even when they aren't both good, it is still fun.
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I certainly think this is true, and honestly I think it has a lot to do with media coverage. Especially when the Trib owned the Cubs, there was not nearly equal representation, heck it was probably more skewed than 60-40. Even when the Sox were just objectively better than the Cubs, the media attention was always on the Cubs. I remember stories in the Trib about why Sox fans should love certain Cub teams. I don't need a corporate shill newspaper telling me what team I should like, much less love. Crap like that makes Sox fans more defensive.
I remember Frank Thomas being completely villanized by the Trib, and Sammy Sosa completely lionized. It is really annoying. The only place you could get even decent Sox coverage was the Southtown. I remember Cub fans telling me how much better Kerry Wood was than Mark Buehrle. ALL THE TIME. How much better Kerry Wood was than any pitcher to ever touch a baseball actually ( I have a friend that is a Cubs season ticket holder that told me this year that Wood is the best pitcher the Cubs have ever had-- Hell Arrieta is already better! Cmon!) And having exactly one date in history to make their claim. Sure, he had better stuff, but he wasn't better on the mound. Then add in the recent crap about how the Sox should trade Sale to the Cubs for a package built around Jorge Soler. It makes the brain hurt, and makes Sox fans a little more defensive.
I know I was always questioned throughout grade school and high school about how I could possibly be a Sox fan. This is how it works when your fandom falls in the minority. People were incredulous, "How could you be a Sox fan???" and then when I tried to talk baseball with them and to state my positions, I found many of these "fans," that could hardly believe I was a Sox fan, were completely illiterate to basic baseball (not saying all Cub fans are like this, but certainly the ones like that are the most obnoxious). These kinds of experiences make Sox fans a little more defensive.
I would liken it to how many of our fellow MU alums from the state of Wisconsin, really really hate UW. The Badgers are in their faces all the time. And everyone thinks you are some sort of freakoid because you don't like the Badgers. That is what it is like to be a Sox fan in Chicago.
The Cubs are in your face all the time. You are called out for your fanhood all the time. Your sanity is questioned, and lets be real here, it isn't like the Cubs are the Yankees or anything, for most of my life they have been at best a mediocre franchise. And they are completely ubiquitous. They are front and center, they are in your face all the time. I bet throughout High School and Jr. High, I was outnumbered 15-1 Cub to Sox fans. I was never one to shy away from a conflict, so I always held my ground against assaults on my team. Since I have had to defend my decision, and my team since I was about 5 years old, yeah, it has made me hate the other team.
I have some friends that are great baseball fans that happen to be Cub fans. I love talking baseball with them. Some of the best fans I know. I could almost ( :D)be happy for them if the Cubs won. I remember hoping that they would experience it after the Sox won. But the city would be a complete crap show forever if they won. Cub fans now make fun of Sox fans for holding onto 2005, well if the Cubs win, it will make the press and pub the 85 Bears get look like bush league BS.
So do Sox fans hate the Cubs more. Yes, yes we sure do. I think we have earned that right. The Sox aren't even an after thought to Cub fans. While Sox fans get beat over the head with the Cubs every day.
Sorry for the book. Lots of mental anguish. :D
Freakoid.
As a Cubs fan I get it and I don't have any problem with a healthy dislike between the fans. I have more trouble when someone claims they're a fan of both teams, and I have a couple of friends like that, even if they lean towards one side more than the other.
A lot of it is easy to ignore but some of it is so stupid and/or annoying that I can't help myself at times. Like when Hawk Harrelson tried to favorably compare Frazier to Bryant this year. Or what Kaminsky did, as it is not not clever (although I'm sure he thought it was brilliant).
Clearly a lot of it stems from grade school - high school but I would say most fans at that time don't have a very sophisticated view of the game.
That being said, I certainly wouldn't
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In other MLB news, MLB is apparently pushing hard to implement an international draft as part of the new CBA. Not sure this is the best solution, but something new would seem to be better than what is currently going on.
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And Corey Kluber, on what 2 days rest, is getting hit pretty firmly so far. Only 2 runs so far, but some loud outs.
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And Corey Kluber, on what 2 days rest, is getting hit pretty firmly so far. Only 2 runs so far, but some loud outs.
I didn't realize they were starting him today. I assumed with a 3-0 lead they would pitch him on regular rest.
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I didn't realize they were starting him today. I assumed with a 3-0 lead they would pitch him on regular rest.
I'm not sure who they'd start if not Kluber. The only other starter who is healthy is Tomlin, and he pitched game two. Their options were Kluber on three days rest or Tomlin on two. And they need to give Kluber as much rest as possible for Game Seven (God forbid). They're really hoping for the sweep so everyone can get rest. Playoffs are tough with only two starters.
Go Tribe!
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Kluber showed why he is probably the best pitcher in the AL and really limited the damage even though he didn't have his best stuff.
Hey it is better than Dave Burba on 3 days rest right?
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I'm not sure who they'd start if not Kluber. The only other starter who is healthy is Tomlin, and he pitched game two. Their options were Kluber on three days rest or Tomlin on two. And they need to give Kluber as much rest as possible for Game Seven (God forbid). They're really hoping for the sweep so everyone can get rest. Playoffs are tough with only two starters.
Go Tribe!
Yeah, yeah, yeah! Speak of your pitching issues all you want. Toronto didn't win that game, Indians gave it up.
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I like A-Rod as an analyst, brings really thoughtful insight.
I agree with what he just said, the Cubs philosophy of take/see as many pitches is backfiring on them in the postseason. Except for Bryant and Baez, no one else is in attack mode. Even most of their outs tonight were weak groundouts. Be interesting to see how they go into facing Urias tomorrow night.
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I like A-Rod as an analyst, brings really thoughtful insight.
I agree with what he just said, the Cubs philosophy of take/see as many pitches is backfiring on them in the postseason. Except for Bryant and Baez, no one else is in attack mode. Even most of their outs tonight were weak groundouts. Be interesting to see how they go into facing Urias tomorrow night.
Should be very interesting. Urias has been very very good for the last two months and Roberts used him very carefully so he would have something left at the end of the season.
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I'm not sure who they'd start if not Kluber. The only other starter who is healthy is Tomlin, and he pitched game two. Their options were Kluber on three days rest or Tomlin on two. And they need to give Kluber as much rest as possible for Game Seven (God forbid). They're really hoping for the sweep so everyone can get rest. Playoffs are tough with only two starters.
Go Tribe!
Go Chief Wahoo!
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I like A-Rod as an analyst, brings really thoughtful insight.
I agree with what he just said, the Cubs philosophy of take/see as many pitches is backfiring on them in the postseason. Except for Bryant and Baez, no one else is in attack mode. Even most of their outs tonight were weak groundouts. Be interesting to see how they go into facing Urias tomorrow night.
I get the feeling that Urias will cure what ails the Cubs. They will be in attack mode. My son is a big Indians fan (drove from Delaware to Cleveland to watch game 2 - $108 for standing room tickets with some buddies).
My Red Sox were killed by my Yankee fan brother. The Sox had won 11 in a row when we went in for an operation (he donated a kidney to me so despite being a Yankee fan he is a great guy). After the transplant, the Sox went 1-8 and were swept from the playoffs.
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I get the feeling that Urias will cure what ails the Cubs. They will be in attack mode. My son is a big Indians fan (drove from Delaware to Cleveland to watch game 2 - $108 for standing room tickets with some buddies).
My Red Sox were killed by my Yankee fan brother. The Sox had won 11 in a row when we went in for an operation (he donated a kidney to me so despite being a Yankee fan he is a great guy). After the transplant, the Sox went 1-8 and were swept from the playoffs.
If they're in attack mode they might be in trouble. Walks get Urias in trouble. He had 8 Ks the last time he faced the Cubs in 6 innings. The kid is really good, but also really young. It will be fun to see how he performs under this pressure, but a lot of pressure is off of him with a 2-1 series lead vs. a 1-2 series deficit.
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Go Chief Wahoo!
I'm so excited that Toronto gave the Tribe another one! That's seven gifts for the Tribe. Here's hoping the NL champs will be in a giving mood.
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First picture is of LeBron at a NYY vs. Cleveland Playoff game. 2nd is LeBron'a Twitter from today. What a phony.
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So he can't be a Yankees fan who roots for the Indians otherwise?
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So he can't be a Yankees fan who roots for the Indians otherwise?
No.
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Oh.
I'm a Brewers fan who is rooting for the Cubs. I guess that makes me a phony.
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Oh.
I'm a Brewers fan who is rooting for the Cubs. I guess that makes me a phony.
Yep.
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Oh.
I'm a Brewers fan who is rooting for the Cubs. I guess that makes me a phony.
(http://i.imgur.com/nOLKIk5.gif)
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No.
Its more that Lebron has always been a panderer and a fan of Cleveland when its convenient. Played up how he was from Akron, not Cleveland, and didn't like Cleveland people growing up when he left for Miami. But then it was "coming home". He's a Cowboys and Yankees fan, but loudly reps the Browns and the Indians when convenient.
I also doubt Sultan was beating his chest and peppering social media with euphoric Cubs posts.
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Its more that Lebron has always been a panderer and a fan of Cleveland when its convenient. Played up how he was from Akron, not Cleveland, and didn't like Cleveland people growing up when he left for Miami. But then it was "coming home". He's a Cowboys and Yankees fan, but loudly reps the Browns and the Indians when convenient.
I also doubt Sultan was beating his chest and peppering social media with euphoric Cubs posts.
You're exactly right. But it's not worth the time.
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I'm cool with Lebron rooting for the Indians. The Marlins already have two titles. :P
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Its more that Lebron has always been a panderer and a fan of Cleveland when its convenient. Played up how he was from Akron, not Cleveland, and didn't like Cleveland people growing up when he left for Miami. But then it was "coming home". He's a Cowboys and Yankees fan, but loudly reps the Browns and the Indians when convenient.
I also doubt Sultan was beating his chest and peppering social media with euphoric Cubs posts.
Anyone else think the Cavs would not be so publicly supportive of the Indians games if they hadn't just won the championship? Since they are the team that broke Cleveland's championship drought, it is safe to publicly root for the Indians now. I'd bet they wanted to be the ones to break the drought, and would not have wanted the Indians to win if they hadn't first. Just my two cents.
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Anyone else think the Cavs would not be so publicly supportive of the Indians games if they hadn't just won the championship? Since they are the team that broke Cleveland's championship drought, it is safe to publicly root for the Indians now. I'd bet they wanted to be the ones to break the drought, and would not have wanted the Indians to win if they hadn't first. Just my two cents.
Agreed.
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I've seen some pretty silly condemnations of LeBron. This may be the silliest yet.
But, as far as I am concerned the Indians didn't win anyway. I don't accept the results.
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Its more that Lebron has always been a panderer and a fan of Cleveland when its convenient. Played up how he was from Akron, not Cleveland, and didn't like Cleveland people growing up when he left for Miami. But then it was "coming home". He's a Cowboys and Yankees fan, but loudly reps the Browns and the Indians when convenient.
I also doubt Sultan was beating his chest and peppering social media with euphoric Cubs posts.
Because no one would care.
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I've seen some pretty silly condemnations of LeBron. This may be the silliest yet.
Considering who started it, are you really that surprised?
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LOL I just drove by a sign saying "home of Jonathan Lucroy" today. Never knew he was from Umatilla, where my parents live.
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This 8th inning has been 4 hours long.
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Maddon makes some very strange decisions. There was zero reason to bring in Chapman, he was up for an hour, his attitude and demeanor on the mound are awful. Getting lit up.
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Maddon makes some very strange decisions. There was zero reason to bring in Chapman, he was up for an hour, his attitude and demeanor on the mound are awful. Getting lit up.
Nah, he needed work. Slider city. Never even went back 100%
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Nah, he needed work. Slider city. Never even went back 100%
I felt like Chapman gave Maddon a big Eff You for bringing him in with how he pitched the 9th.
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I felt like Chapman gave Maddon a big Eff You for bringing him in with how he pitched the 9th.
Nah. Not at all. Overthinking it.
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Nah. Not at all. Overthinking it.
Those two guys aren't buddies, that story about the flight over was presented to the media for a reason. Their interaction on the field after the game was over said it all.
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Those two guys aren't buddies, that story about the flight over was presented to the media for a reason. Their interaction on the field after the game was over said it all.
Who cares?
I expect him to answer the bell when called upon.
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Um........ I seem to remember Texas won their division.
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Um........ I seem to remember Texas won their division.
As did the Indians, who had the best pitching staff in baseball to catch, and who are headed to the World Series.
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Those two guys aren't buddies, that story about the flight over was presented to the media for a reason. Their interaction on the field after the game was over said it all.
As much as fans and media love Joe Maddon, his unorthodox style doesn't jive with every player, particularly pitchers. He and Hammel had issues late last season. Adam Warren wasn't a fan and that's a big reason why he was sent down then traded away. It's also why the Cubs kicked the tires on guys like Rodney and Peralta and why former Rays like Jake McGee were mentioned in trade talks - they're familiar with Maddon's style and it's less of an adjustment, especially coming over during the season.
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Chapman really just likes the 9th inning...that is all. I am fine they got him over Miller since the Yankees were asking a TON for Miller.
But the way it seems, Miller would have been a better Maddon "fit" as he is ok pitching multiple innings at anytime in the game.
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I saw a story that Charlie Sheen wants to throw out the first pitch at a World Series game dressed as his Ricky "Wild Thing" Vaughn character.
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Wasn't Lucroy's issue with Cleveland that he'd be spending next season backing up Gomes and playing a lot of 1B and DH thus decreasing his FA value following 2017? It didn't really have anything to do with "wanting to go to a contender."
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Yes.
“I was surprised, but I wanted to keep an open mind. Great team. Competitive team. There’s a real chance to win. Doug called Chris Antonetti, the Indians’ president. There was one thing we wanted to know: What was my future with the Indians? We knew Cleveland already had a good catcher, Yan Gomes, who’s injured right now. He’s getting paid more than me, and he’s younger than me. We knew they’d probably want him catching almost every day next year. Heck, if I were the general manager in Cleveland, I’d want Gomes catching every day.
We were right. Antonetti told Doug that the Indians couldn’t make any promises on me catching next season. There was no way they’d drop the team option, either, because I’m pretty inexpensive in 2017. I don’t blame them. I would have been mostly at first base and designated hitter.”
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Wasn't Lucroy's issue with Cleveland that he'd be spending next season backing up Gomes and playing a lot of 1B and DH thus decreasing his FA value following 2017? It didn't really have anything to do with "wanting to go to a contender."
Yep.
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Wasn't Lucroy's issue with Cleveland that he'd be spending next season backing up Gomes and playing a lot of 1B and DH thus decreasing his FA value following 2017? It didn't really have anything to do with "wanting to go to a contender."
Yes. But he went public - multiple times - saying he just wanted to play for a contender and didn't think that at this stage of his career he wanted to sit through a rebuild.
Jan Gomes stinks. I would hope no team is going to tell you "We guarantee you will be our catcher for as long as you'd like to be." But if you're getting scared away because a team won't commit to you over Jan Gomes then maybe you just aren't that good at baseball.
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Yes. But he went public - multiple times - saying he just wanted to play for a contender and didn't think that at this stage of his career he wanted to sit through a rebuild.
Jan Gomes stinks. I would hope no team is going to tell you "We guarantee you will be our catcher for as long as you'd like to be." But if you're getting scared away because a team won't commit to you over Jan Gomes then maybe you just aren't that good at baseball.
Who's Jan Gomes?
Sounds like sour grapes on your part. He had every right to make the decision he did and I can understand the logic.
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Yes. But he went public - multiple times - saying he just wanted to play for a contender and didn't think that at this stage of his career he wanted to sit through a rebuild.
Which is why he was willing to leave the Brewers. That's unrelated to his reasoning for not wanting to join the Indians.
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Didn't Texas have the best record in the American League this year? I mean, by definition that's a "contender" right?
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Who's Jan Gomes?
Sounds like sour grapes on your part. He had every right to make the decision he did and I can understand the logic.
Sour grapes? For what? We got a better package in return from the Rangers.
My biggest issue is you don't publicly state you want to be traded. If he never does that then it's simply, "the Brewers know they won't be competitive by the time Luc is leaving Milwaukee and want a return, but Luc doesn't want to play for Cleveland." Instead it's, "Hey look, Luc goes public more than once saying he just wants to play for a contender and then blocks the trade that would send him to a contender."
Oh and now the contender that he would've been on is in the World Series while he went 1-12 from the plate and allowed a passed ball tie the game that eventually led to his sweep out of the Playoffs. Maybe he is worse than Gomes after all.
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Sounds like sour grapes on your part. He had every right to make the decision he did and I can understand the logic.
He certainly did. But by refusing the Cleveland deal he also ran the risk that he wouldn't get moved and would be stuck with the Brewers. As things turned out, though, Lucroy got (in his opinion) a better deal. I don't think he has any regrets.
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Which is why he was willing to leave the Brewers. That's unrelated to his reasoning for not wanting to join the Indians.
"Yeah, absolutely. I want to win," he said. "It's not guaranteed that I'm going to win if I am traded. But I'm going to be a 30-year-old catcher (in June). I can't put numbers on how much longer I'm going to play, but as players we want to win. I don't care about the money; I just want to win. That's the bottom line."
So what, exactly, would be his reason for not wanting to join the Indians? People site, "Oh, he can't beat out Gomes, so he'd have to play 1B and DH, and with free agency coming up that costs him millions of dollars." Well, in his own words, the money isn't the issue, only winning is. The Indians clearly would've given him that opportunity (winning, the thing he says is the only thing that mattes).
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Didn't Texas have the best record in the American League this year? I mean, by definition that's a "contender" right?
[/quote
Texas sucked, look at their run differential. It would be funny if a player did say, I'm not going to play there because their underlying stats say they really aren't that good.
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Texas sucked, look at their run differential. It would be funny if a player did say, I'm not going to play there because their underlying stats say they really aren't that good.
No team that wins 95 games "sucks," regardless of their run differential.
Houston and Detroit both had better run differentials than Texas. Would you say that they each had a better season?
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No team that wins 95 games "sucks," regardless of their run differential.
Houston and Detroit both had better run differentials than Texas. Would you say that they each had a better season?
Yes.
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Yes.
You honestly believe that a team that won 84 games and missed the postseason had a better season than a team that finished 11 games ahead of them in the standings, won their division and finished with the best record in the AL?
That's impossibly stupid.
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Yes.
I think Houston and Detroit fans would strongly disagree with you.
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"I don't care if Marquette finished 7th in the Big East and missed the post season. They finished first in point differential!!!"
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I think Houston and Detroit fans would strongly disagree with you.
Detroit fan here. Yeah, it would be difficult for you to be more wrong.
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Detroit fan here. Yeah, it would be difficult for you to be more wrong.
Me???
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You honestly believe that a team that won 84 games and missed the postseason had a better season than a team that finished 11 games ahead of them in the standings, won their division and finished with the best record in the AL?
That's impossibly stupid.
Are you shocked?
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Me???
I am agreeing with you about Houston and Detroit fan perspectives. Not obvious?
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I am agreeing with you about Houston and Detroit fan perspectives. Not obvious?
No. You said "it would be difficult for you to be more wrong" when quoting his post.
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I am agreeing with you about Houston and Detroit fan perspectives. Not obvious?
I thought you said it would be difficult for me to be more wrong instead of the original poster.
No worries.
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Doh. Mea Culpa. I agree with you, VBMG.
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Texas wasn't good, they were lucky. That's all.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/situational.cgi?from=1901&to=2016&0=2&1=3&rsgtlt=gt&rs=5&ragtlt=gt&ra=5&2=6&trgtlt=gt&tr=10&3=9&mvgtlt=lt&mv=1&4=10&owlsgtlt=gt&owls=.500&sortby=WP&teams=team&years=each&submit=Run+Situation
If they were .500 like any normal team in 1 run games, they would have not won the division or been in the playoffs.
Sultan, Marquette will never finish 7th in the Big East with the best point differential.
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So you don't believe that teams have any capacity to control their results in 1 run games?
Fact is they weren't .500. They were much better than that. The problem with putting too much emphasis on predictive stats like run differential, is that they aren't real. Their record is real. That is how they fared over the longest season in sports. That seems like a fair representation of how good they were.
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So you don't believe that teams have any capacity to control their results in 1 run games?
Fact is they weren't .500. They were much better than that. The problem with putting too much emphasis on predictive stats like run differential, is that they aren't real. Their record is real. That is how they fared over the longest season in sports. That seems like a fair representation of how good they were.
Baseball statheads think run differential is a better measure of the true quality of a team than is W-L record because run differential is a better predictor of future results. Teams do not have a magic ability to win close games. Most people think a great bullpen is what gets you to win close games, but some teams win close games because their bullpen turns 8-3 leads into 8-7 wins.
Of course, all that matters in reality is W-L record, because the team with the best W-L record wins the division, and the one with the better W-L record in the playoff series wins the series. So while run differential may be a better indicator of true quality, nobody would rather have a better run differential and a worse record than someone else.
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Jeff Bagwell? Tim Raines? The Hall of Very Good continues to open its doors to new members!
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Jeff Bagwell? Tim Raines? The Hall of Very Good continues to open its doors to new members!
Did you know that over the course of baseball history about 1.5% of players are enshrined in the Hall of Fame. Since 1980, it is less than 1% that have been accepted into the Hall. If anything the standards are getting tougher and tougher.
Bagwell's career slash line was .297/.408/.540 (that is an OPS of .948). He did that over 15 seasons. 488 Doubles, 449 HR, 1529 RBI. He walked over 1400 times. He averaged 33 doubles 30 HR, over 90 BB and over 100 RBI per season. Not quite sure what you are looking for from a HOFer.
Raines' biggest fault always seemed that he wasn't Ricky Henderson. He did everything well, and did it for a long time.
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Did you know that over the course of baseball history about 1.5% of players are enshrined in the Hall of Fame. Since 1980, it is less than 1% that have been accepted into the Hall. If anything the standards are getting tougher and tougher.
I blame expansion.
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Jeff Bagwell? Tim Raines? The Hall of Very Good continues to open its doors to new members!
The best post WWII 1b (after Pujols) shouldn't be in the HOF?!?!
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The best post WWII 1b (after Pujols) shouldn't be in the HOF?!?!
Depends on how you classify Stan Musial, Frank Thomas and Miguel Cabrera.
But Jeff Bagwell should be in the HOF.
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The best post WWII 1b (after Pujols) shouldn't be in the HOF?!?!
The best post-WWII 1B should be in the HOF. That's not Bagwell though.
In no particular order, Pujols, Musial, Cabrera, McCovey, Murray, Thomas - all better 1B than Bagwell. There are also guys like Rod Carew, Ernie Banks and Harmon Killebrew who spent a lot of time at 1B who I'd rank ahead of Bagwell.
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Depends on how you classify Stan Musial, Frank Thomas and Miguel Cabrera.
But Jeff Bagwell should be in the HOF.
Musial only played about 1/3 of his games at first, Cabrera is about 1/2 currently, and Thomas was 42% so wasn't really considering them true 1b. It's also a debate whether either of the last 2 are better than Bagwell overall.
There's a few others that you can toss in the hat too (Thome, McCovey, Palmeiro), but their peaks don't quite measure up IMO. If Bagwell could have overcome the shoulder injury and hung around for 3 or 4 more years at slightly above replacement level to rack up some counting stats, that doesn't make him a better player I don't think.
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I think both Raines and Bagwell were overdue. Ivan Rodriguez surprised me, both as a first ballot guy and as a probable steroid user. Canseco called him out as a regular steroid user, and everyone that could be verified that he called out turned out to be steroid guys. So why is he in and Bonds/Clemens not? The only real difference is that Bonds and Clemens ended up having ridiculous stats and Ivan Rodriguez only very good ones.
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Bagwell is very deserving.
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I actually think Fred McGriff has an argument to get in. 493 HRs, 441 doubles, 2,490 hits, 1,305 BBs, and a career slash line of .284/.377/.509/.886. Per 162 averages of 32 HRs and 102 RBIs.
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Musial only played about 1/3 of his games at first, Cabrera is about 1/2 currently, and Thomas was 42% so wasn't really considering them true 1b.It's also a debate whether either of the last 2 are better than Bagwell overall.
Hmmm. I would say it is debatable, but it would be much more difficult to be on the side of the debate that Bagwell is better than either Thomas or Cabrera.
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Bagwell is very deserving.
Agree. OPS+ for selection of first basemen listed above since WW2 (plus some others not mentioned) OPS+ in on base % + Slugging % then normalized for the era and parks where you played, which allows a fair comparison between eras. The first number is their all-time rank among all players.
11 - Mark McGwire 163 (63% better than an average MLB hitter over the course of his career)
15 - Stan Musial 159
18 - Albert Pujols 157
21 - Dick Allen 156 (very underrated. Played in the pitching dominated 60s in poor hitters parks and had a relatively short career, all of which makes his numbers look much less impressive)
21 - Frank Thomas 156
24 - Miguel Cabrera 155
37 - Jeff Bagwell 149
42 - Willie McCovey 147
42 - Willie Stargell 147
42 - Jim Thome 147
57 - Harmon Killebrew 143
62 - Frank Howard 142
118 - Prince Fielder 134 (If he didn't get hurt, I think it is safe to say his career ranking would have declined steadily as he aged.)
118 - Fred McGriff 134
So in theory, this makes Bagwell among the top 40 offensive players on a per rate basis in history, and it is safe to say he was a better defensive first baseman than any of the others on the list.
Hard to see how he is not a HOFer, unless you believe the steroids accusations, which is why he wasn't inducted sooner.
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I actually think Fred McGriff has an argument to get in. 493 HRs, 441 doubles, 2,490 hits, 1,305 BBs, and a career slash line of .284/.377/.509/.886. Per 162 averages of 32 HRs and 102 RBIs.
More than an argument. I would say he should certainly be in. I would say he and Kent are both deserving (as well as Vlad, Hoffman, and Mussina. Probably Edgar as well. I am unsure on Wagner and Schilling...)
If I had a ballot it would have been:
Bagwell, Raines, Vlad, Hoffman, Mussina, McGriff, Kent and Edgar. If I was voting (I haven't had the time since I am not) I would dig more into Wagner, Schilling and Larry Walker.
Funny side note on Raines, he was a guy, that when he was on the Sox, I never felt like I was watching a HOF-er. But his years with the Expos were his prime where he was a truly great player.
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Hmmm. I would say it is debatable, but it would be much more difficult to be on the side of the debate that Bagwell is better than either Thomas or Cabrera.
It's not just about hitting though. Bagwell was a very good defensive 1st baseman and base runner. I haven't dug into this too much, but he does have a higher WAR per BR than either of those guys.
Bagwell - 79.6 WAR in 2,150 games
Cabrera - 69.6 WAR in 2,096 games (to-date)
Thomas - 73.7 WAR in 2,322 games
I think the JAWS metric at BR is also pretty cool to look at. Of course, these metrics aren't the end all, be all to judge and are just one data point, that's why it's a debate.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml)
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It's not just about hitting though. Bagwell was a very good defensive 1st baseman and base runner. I haven't dug into this too much, but he does have a higher WAR per BR than either of those guys.
Bagwell - 79.6 WAR in 2,150 games
Cabrera - 69.6 WAR in 2,096 games (to-date)
Thomas - 73.7 WAR in 2,322 games
I think the JAWS metric at BR is also pretty cool to look at. Of course, these metrics aren't the end all, be all to judge and are just one data point, that's why it's a debate.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml)
Bagwell was certainly a better defender, but none of those three will be remembered for their defense. None of those three are in the hall (or will be in Cabrera's case) because of their defense. I think defense can certainly get guys into the hall of fame, but not first-basemen.
Bagwell finished top 5 in MVP voting 3 times with 1 win. Frank Thomas was 6 times with 2 wins and Cabrera has (so far) 6 with 2 wins.
Personally I would rate them,
Frank Thomas
Miguel Cabrera (now, Cabrera will be 1 by the time he is finished barring some sort of compete collapse)
Jeff Bagwell
But they are all great, and all quite similar players. Especially as hitters.
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It is not a legitimate Hall of Fame until they admit Barry Bonds, Pete Rose and Roger Clemens.
Maybe with Bonds, his hat on his plaque can have a syringe on it instead of a team logo! Rose's should have a dollar sign.
Regardless, Rose was one of the greatest players of his time and Bonds and his steroids helped save baseball.
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Regardless, Rose was one of the greatest players of his time and Bonds and his steroids helped save baseball.
There's a common argument, (which I don't agree with), that McGwire/Sosa "saved" baseball in '98. I have never heard the argument that Bonds saved baseball in '01, (when he jumped to 73 HRs from 49 in '00).
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There's a common argument, (which I don't agree with), that McGwire/Sosa "saved" baseball in '98. I have never heard the argument that Bonds saved baseball in '01, (when he jumped to 73 HRs from 49 in '00).
Bonds was part of the steroid enthusiasm of the late 1990s and early 2000s. Was he as important as McGwire/Sosa? Nope.
Did his steroids put butts in seats? Of course they did.
Hot dogs, beer, cracker jacks and steroids. As baseball as Gaylord Perry's grease balls!
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Gotta let in everyone associated with PEDs or no one. And certainly can't be against one year and for another year (same player).
You've got tons of other known drug users in the hall already. The steroid era is a part of baseball history just like cocaine and whatever else. Put them in their own wing.
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It is a museum. Put them in but tell the honest story
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It is a museum. Put them in but tell the honest story
Actually, the HOF is just one wing of the baseball museum. Rose, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc. are already represented in the museum.
But, I agree with you and Jesmu. They should be in the HOF as well. If there needs to be a designation that says they were part of the steroid era, then so be it.
Maybe there should be a designation on Stargell or Schmidt's plaque that they were part of the cocaine era, or on the plaques of Mantle and Ruth that their careers were largely fueled by alcohol. I don't know what the right answer is.
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Maybe there should be a designation on Stargell or Schmidt's plaque that they were part of the cocaine era, or on the plaques of Mantle and Ruth that their careers were largely fueled by alcohol. I don't know what the right answer is.
Mantle and Ruth were great in spite of alcohol. Sammy Sosa was great because of steroids. Totally different. Don't think cocaine was performance enhancing either. Speed (aka "greenies") were available and probably somewhat enhancing. But nothing compares to steroids. Brady Anderson with 51 home runs? Really? Would Jose Canseco even been a major league player without them?
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Mantle and Ruth were great in spite of alcohol. Sammy Sosa was great because of steroids. Totally different. Don't think cocaine was performance enhancing either. Speed (aka "greenies") were available and probably somewhat enhancing. But nothing compares to steroids. Brady Anderson with 51 home runs? Really? Would Jose Canseco even been a major league player without them?
You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.
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You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.
This seems ridiculous. They make you stronger. The stronger you are the harder you can swing the bat. The harder you swing the bat the farther the ball travels.
The harder you swing the bat the longer you can wait to swing. The longer you can wait to swing the chance of missing a pitch lessens. The longer you wait to swing the more time you have to recognize the pitch.
Bonds career SLG was .559 going into 2000, his age 35 season. From that point on in his career he slugged .724 (That is about .50 higher than his career high to that point, do guys always get waaaaaaay better in their late 30s?). But yeah you are probably right, steroids don't help you swing it any better.
Canseco said himself that he wouldn't have been an MLB player if not for the steroids. And as for a guy like Sosa, well, how do you know when he started using? It very well could have been as early as like 1993. Canseco and Ken Caminiti were certainly using as early as that.
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You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.
Sosa was a mid-30 HR guy before he started juicing. Almost overnight, he became a 60 HR guy.
McGwire has 583 career HR. From 1996-99, when he finally admitted to juicing like crazy after years of lying, he hit almost 200 of those HR.
Bonds never had a 50 HR season. Enter the syringe ... 73.
As another Scooper said, Brady Anderson.
How about Luis Gonzalez?
Please.
You can say "everybody did it." Or you can say, "Even those who didn't do it are guilty by association because they sat idly by knowing their peers were doing it." Or you can say, "Most fans don't care, so why should the BBWAA voters who pick HoF?" But don't pretend they didn't have a very, very real effect on the game's statistics.
Steroids are proven science. That's why, even today with all the penalties known and the testing very common, athletes STILL try to get away with taking them. They work!
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Tough night for the MLB family last night. As both Andy Marte and Yordano Ventura were killed in car accidents.
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RIP. Don't drink and drive.
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RIP. Don't drink and drive.
According to reports, alcohol was not a factor in the Ventura crash. I haven't heard either way on Marte.
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RIP. Don't drink and drive.
It may be a good idea to stay out of cars in the DR altogether.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/royals-ventura-killed-car-crash-dominican-republic-44968875
(http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/royals-ventura-killed-car-crash-dominican-republic-44968875)
"The Dominican Republic has the second-highest traffic-related death rate in the world — officials there believe alcohol, speed and a blatant disregard for traffic laws is to blame. Oscar Taveras, Jose Oliva, Rufino Linares and Jose Uribe are among players who have died in crashes in the country.
It wasn't known whether Ventura had been drinking or speeding at the time of his accident."
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The Cardinals will lose their top 2 draft picks in this years draft to the Astros due to the Cardinals hacking the Astros system.
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Good for the MLB. That's a pretty stern message to the Cards' organization.
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Yeah, 2M fine as well. Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist). I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards.
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Yeah, 2M fine as well. Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist). I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards.
It wasn't me that was bitching but this punishment is pretty light. The Cards already didn't have a first round pick this year and the fact that they are gifted a competitive balance pick each year is a joke as it is. It wasn't nothing but that doesn't send too strong of a message.
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The Cardinals will lose their top 2 draft picks in this years draft to the Astros due to the Cardinals hacking the Astros system.
St. Louis has already given up their first-found pick (which was 19th overall) to the Cubs when they signed Dexter Fowler. If MLB has made this decision earlier, the Astros would not have had to wait until Round 2 to get the pick from the Cardinals.
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Yeah, 2M fine as well. Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist). I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards.
$2M is pocket change - basically they got fined what they would pay a below average middle reliever.
The picks, as well, are not a big penalty. Once you get past the first 10-15 picks, the draft is a crap shoot. The vast majority of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounders never even become starting players in the bigs.
If this had been handed down in a timely manner, then it would have at least meant something - they would not have been able to sign Fowler. As it is, it is just a light slap on the wrist.
Crime pays!!
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I disagree. It is their top 2 picks. Yes, they already lost their top pick, but still. It will also reduce their overall pool for the draft and basically gives them no ability to sign any over-slot players down in the draft. And while the majority of those players never become regulars, there are players drafted there every year that are drafted in those rounds. This also doesn't allow them to restock their farm system in the middle of the year, and could impact their willingness to trade current players to help their roster mid-season.
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I disagree. It is their top 2 picks. Yes, they already lost their top pick, but still. It will also reduce their overall pool for the draft and basically gives them no ability to sign any over-slot players down in the draft. And while the majority of those players never become regulars, there are players drafted there every year that are drafted in those rounds. This also doesn't allow them to restock their farm system in the middle of the year, and could impact their willingness to trade current players to help their roster mid-season.
It's a slap on the wrist that doesn't equate to how serious the breach was. And I have a real hard time believing only one individual knew about it.
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http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/cardinals-deserved-far-worse-punishment-from-mlb-after-hacking-astros-013017
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Dodgers 2017 MLB Worldseries champs
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That is all fair, and maybe the punishment was light. What more would you have done? Acted sooner and taken away their number 1 pick? Would Fowler then have cost their 3rd or 4th? No real difference there. Would they have been unable to sign a QO player? Taken away their entire draft? Taken their first pick next year? Maybe that would have been the thing to do.
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That is all fair, and maybe the punishment was light. What more would you have done? Acted sooner and taken away their number 1 pick? Would Fowler then have cost their 3rd or 4th? No real difference there. Would they have been unable to sign a QO player? Taken away their entire draft? Taken their first pick next year? Maybe that would have been the thing to do.
I'm not saying it was an easy decision as there was no precedent but MLB really dragged it out. That gave the Cardinals more incentive to go after Fowler, knowing they may lose that pick as part of the punishment anyway. I do think if their first round pick in 2018 had also been taken away along with the picks this year that would have been more palatable.
From what I've read, it does seem quite a few people in the industry think they got off pretty easy.
And again, the Cardinals should not received a competitive balance pick every year due to market size. They are not hurting for revenue in the least. That gets on my nerves on a yearly basis.
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And again, the Cardinals should not received a competitive balance pick every year due to market size. They are not hurting for revenue in the least. That gets on my nerves on a yearly basis.
Completely separate issue. Has no bearing on anything to do with this case, but yes, the fact that they Cards get an extra pick is ridiculous. Actually, the whole competitive balance system is terrible.
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Completely separate issue. Has no bearing on anything to do with this case, but yes, the fact that they Cards get an extra pick is ridiculous. Actually, the whole competitive balance system is terrible.
Overall you're right but it could have been part of a bigger penalty.
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Overall you're right but it could have been part of a bigger penalty.
I doubt the penalty could have superseded the CBA. The 2M fine was the max allowed by the CBA. The commissioner can not unilaterally alter it.