MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on February 13, 2016, 08:56:27 PM
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When you're up 1 with 4:30 to play you lay the ball into the hoop on a breakaway when you're a below the rim player. Kid continues to cost us games and it's purely mental errors.
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That missed layup was infuriating. He had so much time, space, etc.
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When you're up 1 with 4:30 to play you lay the ball into the hoop on a breakaway when you're a below the rim player. Kid continues to cost us games and it's purely mental errors.
Milwaukee kid. Lacks fundamentals. Erratic. Inconsistent.
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Play didn't really matter. Creighton missed on the offensive end and Marquette scored the next time down.
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duane is just a frustrating player to have on your team. he's made some huge shots this year, but wow the poor decision making, wild shot attempts, and horrendous mistakes just kill us
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duane is just a frustrating player to have on your team. he's made some huge shots this year, but wow the poor decision making, wild shot attempts, and horrendous mistakes just kill us
I will take Duane on my team any day of the week.
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Play didn't really matter. Creighton missed on the offensive end and Marquette scored the next time down.
Disagree. Momentum, another 2 points in an uncontested play. You can't get an easier basket than that one.
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Duane is the guy I want with the ball in the last two minutes. He has no memory, which is a great quality for a shooter. He's not perfect, but no one on this team is.
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Duane is the guy I want with the ball in the last two minutes. He has no memory, which is a great quality for a shooter. He's not perfect, but no one on this team is.
What about the other 38 minutes?
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Disagree. Momentum, another 2 points in an uncontested play. You can't get an easier basket than that one.
Well I shouldn't say it didn't matter. But Marquette rebounded from that to make a stop and score the next time down. It had no effect on momentum.
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Well I shouldn't say it didn't matter. But Marquette rebounded from that to make a stop and score the next time down. It had no effect on momentum.
Again, disagree. Talk about a kick to the balls and a momentum deflater. Nothing worse than seeing your teammate chunk a breakaway, it certainly doesn't help momentum and the crowd let out a giant WTF. That's momentum killing.
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Again, disagree. Talk about a kick to the balls and a momentum deflater. Nothing worse than seeing your teammate chunk a breakaway, it certainly doesn't help momentum and the crowd let out a giant WTF. That's momentum killing.
Well once again you are just arguing to argue. I don't think it mattered. Not the reason they lost.
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Play didn't really matter. Creighton missed on the offensive end and Marquette scored the next time down.
...so we were -2 points. Big difference going down the stretch there.
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...so we were -2 points. Big difference going down the stretch there.
You are making assumptions about how it would have played out. I don't think it was a factor in the outcome.
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You are making assumptions about how it would have played out. I don't think it was a factor in the outcome.
It was a straight up 2 points off of the board for us. They push off of makes, but we had 4 guys back on defense make or miss (because Duane was COMPLETELY alone for a layup). If you don't think that the difference between being up 3, getting a stop, and getting a bucket to make it a 2 possession game and missing the dunk, being up 1, getting a stop, and then getting a bucket to still only be up one possession is a huge difference with 3 minutes left in the game, I honestly don't know what else to say.
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It was a straight up 2 points off of the board for us. They push off of makes, but we had 4 guys back on defense make or miss (because Duane was COMPLETELY alone for a layup). If you don't think that the difference between being up 3, getting a stop, and getting a bucket to make it a 2 possession game and missing the dunk, being up 1, getting a stop, and then getting a bucket to still only be up one possession is a huge difference with 3 minutes left in the game, I honestly don't know what else to say.
Because you can't make the assumption that we still get the stop and the make.
AND Marquette STILL should have won. If Duane's miss happens in the first minute of the game, you wouldn't even be talking about it.
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Because you can't make the assumption that we still get the stop and the make.
AND Marquette STILL should have won. If Duane's miss happens in the first minute of the game, you wouldn't even be talking about it.
I don't know what would've possibly changed. We had 4 defenders back whether he would've made or missed the shot. Our defense was set. Their offense couldn't get out and beat our defense down the court.
But okay. Be okay with our 21 year old guard continuing to make absolutely absurd mental errors that you won't even see at Marquette University High School during lunchtime intramural games and excuse it because the next possessions' outcomes may turn into something different if Duane didn't make those mental blunders.
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Dunk the fu.... ball! Is it his leg why he doesn't dunk anymore.
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I don't know what would've possibly changed. We had 4 defenders back whether he would've made or missed the shot. Our defense was set. Their offense couldn't get out and beat our defense down the court.
But okay. Be okay with our 21 year old guard continuing to make absolutely absurd mental errors that you won't even see at Marquette University High School during lunchtime intramural games and excuse it because the next possessions' outcomes may turn into something different if Duane didn't make those mental blunders.
I never said I was "okay with it." I said it didn't have the ultimate outcome on the game that you are stating. God you such a disingenuous turd with your goalpost shifting.
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I never said I was "okay with it." I said it didn't have the ultimate outcome on the game that you are stating. God you such a disingenuous turd with your goalpost shifting.
Lol.
Certainly seems like you're doing everything you can to defend a completely botched wide open breakaway (while we were up 1, with 4:30 left, mind you).
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What about the other 38 minutes?
Tongue in cheek, but I definitely feel Duane is the one guy that can turn it up at the end. He could be god awful for 38 minutes and I still want the ball in his hands at the end.
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Tongue in cheek, but I definitely feel Duane is the one guy that can turn it up at the end. He could be god awful for 38 minutes and I still want the ball in his hands at the end.
If we are trailing or tied, I agree. If we are leading in a 1 possession game, I don't even want him within a mile of the stadium.
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Lol.
Certainly seems like you're doing everything you can to defend a completely botched wide open breakaway (while we were up 1, with 4:30 left, mind you).
No. I just have the understanding that a botched layup with 4:30 to go is no different than a botched lay up with 15:00 left on the clock in the first half.
I am placing the play in its proper perspective while you are putting undo emphasis on it. After that miss, Marquette extended its lead, and then gained it back twice after Creighton tied it up. Including having a two point lead and the ball with 1:40 left when Wojo called timeout with the lead.
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No. I just have the understanding that a botched layup with 4:30 to go is no different than a botched lay up with 15:00 left on the clock in the first half.
I am placing the play in its proper perspective while you are putting undo emphasis on it. After that miss, Marquette extended its lead, and then gained it back twice after Creighton tied it up. Including having a two point lead and the ball with 1:40 left when Wojo called timeout with the lead.
...right. So add 2 points onto that and there's a very different situation coming out of a timeout with 1:40 left.
If you really think a 3 pointer with 18:24 left in the first half is just as big of a 3 pointer as a 3 pointer down by 3 with 23 seconds left in the game then more power to you Sultan. You are smarter than me.
There are certain points in games that are more important than others. A layup to stop a 12-0 run is bigger than a layup to start the game. A missed layup that would've pushed your lead to 3 with 4:30 to play is more important than a missed layup with 15 minutes to go in the 1st half and a 1 point lead. There's this thing called "time and situation." It makes big differences. Possessions don't happen in vacuums.
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...right. So add 2 points onto that and there's a very different situation coming out of a timeout with 1:40 left.
Well if you make the assumption that the game plays itself out the EXACT SAME WAY after any missed shot, Duane's missed layup is no more important than Henry and Luke going a combined 1-6 at the line, Haanif's two charges, etc.
That is pretty much my point. You are placing too much emphasis on one play especially considering that Marquette scored on its next three offensive possessions afterward. (Which nixes the "momentum" argument.)
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My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.
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My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.
Yes. Running around like chickens with their heads cut off on defense. Duane's miss didn't cause that.
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Well if you make the assumption that the game plays itself out the EXACT SAME WAY after any missed shot, Duane's missed layup is no more important than Henry and Luke going a combined 1-6 at the line, Haanif's two charges, etc.
That is pretty much my point. You are placing too much emphasis on one play especially considering that Marquette scored on its next three offensive possessions afterward. (Which nixes the "momentum" argument.)
Time and situation.
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Time and situation.
Right. Which supports my point. Marquette scored on multiple possessions and extended its lead after that miss.
It didn't affect momentum. It had no more an impact than any other empty possession throughout the game.
It was a "high profile miss." Which means people are placing more emphasis on it than they should.
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Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?
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Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?
This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching? Or was that the players?
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When you're up 1 with 4:30 to play you lay the ball into the hoop on a breakaway when you're a below the rim player. Kid continues to cost us games and it's purely mental errors.
Exactly, yet he portends that he's the leader of this team. Not a fan. Probably a good kid but peace bro...
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Play didn't really matter. Creighton missed on the offensive end and Marquette scored the next time down.
Play absolutely mattered...up 5 vs 3. Sick of you stay nerds pretending possessions don't matter.
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My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.
Agreed. What was so frustrating for me was if you were to watch that entire possession, I believe it was Milliken who received a pass just to the left of where he took the made three, and no one was on him - wide open - and he didn't shoot. I thought why the hell was he left so open, we were lucky he didn't take that because he was wide open. Then he gave up the ball, moved to the top of the key, got it back and was wide open AGAIN. this time he took it and drained it.
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To me that is this team in one play--so much potential, so many good things, and so many crazy stupid plays that you just shake your head in wonder.
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This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching? Or was that the players?
MU definately tried to give away the Providence game. Providence just could not take it.
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MU definately tried to give away the Providence game. Providence just could not take it.
Yup, but they won and played a good game throughout to get into that position. Against Wisconsin? Butler? Providence again? Etc. Is it coaching that loses and players only win?
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Play absolutely mattered...up 5 vs 3. Sick of you stay nerds pretending possessions don't matter.
But if Wilson didn't miss the dunk/layup/whateverthehelllthatwas Carter wouldn't have gotten the steal. Who's to say what would have happened on creightons possession.
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is it coaching that loses and players only win?
Both. But when blatant issues continue to come up in every close game, it becomes a coaching problem.
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Both. But when blatant issues continue to come up in every close game, it becomes a coaching problem.
Can you outline what those blatant issues are that come up in close games
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But if Wilson didn't miss the dunk/layup/whateverthehelllthatwas Carter wouldn't have gotten the steal. Who's to say what would have happened on creightons possession.
Why would Carter have not gotten the steal? This is what I don't get about yours and Sultan's theory. The next possession does not change 1 bit if Duane simply lays the ball in. Our defense is set. We have 4 guys back on defense with the miss, and we would've with a make. It doesn't make sense. It's not like Creighton got the rebound and we had 4 guys crashing the glass so they got some run out but a defender made a great play on their break. It was literally going to be the exact same situation had Wilson made the layup. If Duane makes it, Creighton is bringing the ball up at the same pace and running their half court offense, just like they did with Duane somehow messing up a breakaway all by himself. There was 4:30 left so they didn't suddenly go from needing a 2 to requiring a 3. Absolutely nothing would have changed about that possession, or Marquette's next possession, if Wilson makes a simple, wide open, uncontested layup. It's really not hard to see that. Go back and watch the play. Make or miss, Marquette is set up and Creighton needs to run a half court set.
Where it DOES change the game is, instead of up 2 late in the game and not getting a bucket, we'd be up 4 and Creighton most likely needs to send us to the line.
For the next 2 minutes the only way the game changed was Marquette had 2 points less on the scoreboard. That let Creighton play straight up and take a lead because they got a stop and then a 3. 1 possession game vs. 2 possession game is an absolutely critical difference down the stretch. Time and situation.
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Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game. Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger. There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.
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You cant say with certainty that the possession would have gone the exact same way. If Duane had scored they would have taken it out of bounds. Watson could have come up a different side of the floor, he could have ran a different play, hell he could have dribbled it off his foot bringing it up. To say the rest of the possession would play out the same way makes no sense.
That being said, Duanes miss was huge. Shouldn't have happened. No one mistake ever causes a loss. It's a culmination of mistakes. I don't think Duanes biff was even the biggest factor. But it was the most unacceptable mistake and the easiest one to correct.
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Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game. Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger. There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.
LOL. It was such a momentum changer that Marquette scored on its next three possessions and extended its lead after the miss. :o
That being said, Duanes miss was huge. Shouldn't have happened. No one mistake ever causes a loss. It's a culmination of mistakes. I don't think Duanes biff was even the biggest factor. But it was the most unacceptable mistake and the easiest one to correct.
I can go with this. I personally think the defensive breakdowns toward the end of the game were the biggest factor, along with the stupid timeout that Wojo took.
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Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?
Yes, drawing up a play for our most efficient scorer was a bad coaching decision. Sound analysis.
I also still don't buy your theory that every time an opponent scores on an inbound play it means you were outcoached. If it were true, a lot of great coaches are getting outcoached all the time!
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Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game. Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger. There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.
Agreed. There is no way you blow a bunny like that. In addition, he had a wide open three that he had enough time to read the Bible before launching it and it clanked. I like Duane a lot, but believe that the way Wojo has used him this year has hurt his confidence--not developing well.
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Was at the game so didn't see the play a 2nd time. Just researched it. The Creighton PG literally is falling out of bounds on the rebound and needs to pass it to the big who was trailing even more to save himself from falling out of bounds. They were literally taking it from the end line and their guard walked the ball up the middle of the court just like he would've had Duane not missed an uncontested breakaway. The following possession would have been identical.
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In addition, he had a wide open three that he had enough time to read the Bible before launching it and it clanked
That made me chuckle. Well put
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This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching? Or was that the players?
There are two parts to coaching. Game prep, which I think Wojo is pretty good at. In game adjustments, which I think Wojo stinks at.
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Was at the game so didn't see the play a 2nd time. Just researched it. The Creighton PG literally is falling out of bounds on the rebound and needs to pass it to the big who was trailing even more to save himself from falling out of bounds. They were literally taking it from the end line and their guard walked the ball up the middle of the court just like he would've had Duane not missed an uncontested breakaway. The following possession would have been identical.
So had Duane scored Creighton would have had their PG inbound it to their big man while off balance? Because that right there could change the possession. Watson could have taken it up the right side. Or the left. Maybe he would take more or less time bringing it up. Maybe because Duane scored, the situation would be different and he would call a different play. Maybe because Duane scored he would have felt the need to answer right away and taken a three from the top of the key. Maybe he would have been so flustered by Duane scoring that he dribbled it off his foot. Maybe McDermott would have been afraid of momentum swinging and called a time out. Maybe because we scored, Traci wouldn't have felt the need to be aggressive and go for the steal. Maybe Duane would have gotten caught up celebrating and let his man get behind him for an easy score.
Who knows? There is literally no way to know what would have happened the next possession. To try and claim otherwise is silly.
Don't get me wrong, there is no situation where Duane missing the layup is a good thing. No matter what, that is an awful mistake.
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So had Duane scored Creighton would have had their PG inbound it to their big man while off balance? Because that right there could change the possession. Watson could have taken it up the right side. Or the left. Maybe he would take more or less time bringing it up. Maybe because Duane scored, the situation would be different and he would call a different play. Maybe because Duane scored he would have felt the need to answer right away and taken a three from the top of the key. Maybe he would have been so flustered by Duane scoring that he dribbled it off his foot. Maybe McDermott would have been afraid of momentum swinging and called a time out. Maybe because we scored, Traci wouldn't have felt the need to be aggressive and go for the steal. Maybe Duane would have gotten caught up celebrating and let his man get behind him for an easy score.
Who knows? There is literally no way to know what would have happened the next possession. To try and claim otherwise is silly.
Don't get me wrong, there is no situation where Duane missing the layup is a good thing. No matter what, that is an awful mistake.
Nope, the big white guy would've gotten the ball and inbounded it to him, which he essentially did by handing the ball right back to him. He would've walked the ball up the middle of the court, just like he did. Creighton isn't in desperation 3 point mode with 4:30 left. It was an identical situation, other than Duane took 2 points off of the score board. Once again, where it changes is down the end, when Creighton was able to defend straight up in a 1 possession game instead of having to foul in a 2 possession game.
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Nope, the big white guy would've gotten the ball and inbounded it to him, which he essentially did by handing the ball right back to him. He would've walked the ball up the middle of the court, just like he did. Creighton isn't in desperation 3 point mode with 4:30 left. It was an identical situation, other than Duane took 2 points off of the score board. Once again, where it changes is down the end, when Creighton was able to defend straight up in a 1 possession game instead of having to foul in a 2 possession game.
So you're going to maintain, with 100% certainty, that the next possession would have been identical. Same play called, exact same movements made, exact same decisions made, and exactly the same outcome. Even though the score was different, the inbound was different, the momentum was different, and there are literally thousands of tiny factors that contribute to how a possession in basketball goes.
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I shudder to think how truly awful this season would have been were it not for Duane Wilson. We go from mediocre to terrible without his play.
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So you're going to maintain, with 100% certainty, that the next possession would have been identical. Same play called, exact same movements made, exact same decisions made, and exactly the same outcome. Even though the score was different, the inbound was different, the momentum was different, and there are literally thousands of tiny factors that contribute to how a possession in basketball goes.
Yes.
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Milwaukee kid. Lacks fundamentals. Erratic. Inconsistent.
stupid post
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I shudder to think how truly awful this season would have been were it not for Duane Wilson. We go from mediocre to terrible without his play.
My wall wouldn't have a hole in it. (TEAL)
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I'm with Keefe here. Duane has some infuriating plays but we would be far worse without him. That goes for all of our top 7 guys with maybe the exception of Cohen. And we don't win the UW game without Cohen.
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Yes.
I'll give you credit. You stick to your guns. I agree to disagree.
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I shudder to think how truly awful this season would have been were it not for Duane Wilson. We go from mediocre to terrible without his play.
He giveth and he taketh away. Has a TON of talent, but makes me pull my hair out since the day he got here.
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duane rather look good than be good
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duane rather look good than be good
Always on your game teamdee
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Always on your game teamdee
YEP. And that game is the game of douchery.
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Duane is the guy I want with the ball in the last two minutes. He has no memory, which is a great quality for a shooter. He's not perfect, but no one on this team is.
I'll take Cheatham.
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Duane Wilson is a very talented player. His stats are solid. He has won games for the Warriors; and, he has lost games for the team.
The one thing I have noted is that often he is not into the "flow" of the offense. It seems, at times, there are four MU guys trying to run a play and while Duane is on his own doing something else. It is also common to have the other four over-look him and not pass the ball to him.
It very well may be because of his talent, Coach Wojo gives him total free reign on offense. It may also be he is, indeed, an enigma this year.
If anyone transfers out at the end of the season, which does not seem likely, (speculation alert) it could be Duane who might not be "comfortable" this year.
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Duane Wilson is a very talented player. His stats are solid. He has won games for the Warriors; and, he has lost games for the team.
The one thing I have noted is that often he is not into the "flow" of the offense. It seems, at times, there are four MU guys trying to run a play and while Duane is on his own doing something else. It is also common to have the other four over-look him and not pass the ball to him.
It very well may be because of his talent, Coach Wojo gives him total free reign on offense. It may also be he is, indeed, an enigma this year.
If anyone transfers out at the end of the season, which does not seem likely, (speculation alert) it could be Duane who might not be "comfortable" this year.
What games has Duane lost for MU this season?
He's in the flow just as much as everyone else. There have been plenty of times this season when MU's offense pretty much has no flow, Duane or no Duane on the court. Also, none of his teammates intentionally don't pass the ball to him.
Duane has already redshirted. If he transferred, he'd lose a full year of eligibility. Highly unlikely.
I shudder to think where this team would be without Duane Wilson.
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He was bad against Xavier at home, but has had his ups and downs like everyone else. I'm more concerned with his health. He seems to have lost some explosiveness. Two years ago, there's no way he would have missed that layup against Creighton, because he would have thrown it down hard.
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Duane Wilson statistically is better than Vander Blue was as a sophomore. (With the exception of rebounds.) Duane isn't as good a defender as Vander, but he isn't bad.
Duane is absolutely fine. He is going to start and likely be the best guard on the floor for Marquette the next two years. I have no clue why people are so hard on him.
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Duane Wilson statistically is better than Vander Blue was as a sophomore. (With the exception of rebounds.) Duane isn't as good a defender as Vander, but he isn't bad.
Duane is absolutely fine. He is going to start and likely be the best guard on the floor for Marquette the next two years. I have no clue why people are so hard on him.
Easy target.
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If anyone transfers out at the end of the season, which does not seem likely, (speculation alert) it could be Duane who might not be "comfortable" this year.
Keeping Duane + Ike happy > losing Duane to another program
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Duane Wilson statistically is better than Vander Blue was as a sophomore. (With the exception of rebounds.) Duane isn't as good a defender as Vander, but he isn't bad.
Duane is absolutely fine. He is going to start and likely be the best guard on the floor for Marquette the next two years. I have no clue why people are so hard on him.
Every mediocre team needs a whipping boy.
The freshmen get a pass because they're freshmen. Luke's a local traditional. Wally's a hustling traditional and doesn't see enough minutes. JJJ has had a couple good scoring games. That leaves Sandy and Duane. Duane takes more shots and has no conscience, which rubs some fans the wrong way. Therefore, it's obviously his fault that this team isn't better.
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Duane is absolutely fine. He is going to start and likely be the best guard on the floor for Marquette the next two years. I have no clue why people are so hard on him.
I don't know about that. I think Cheatham is better right now. And, his upside IMO, is much higher.
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He was bad against Xavier at home, but has had his ups and downs like everyone else. I'm more concerned with his health. He seems to have lost some explosiveness. Two years ago, there's no way he would have missed that layup against Creighton, because he would have thrown it down hard.
Doubtful given he was redshirting with a leg injury. Maybe 1 year ago? Not sure, but when I think explosive, I think Deonte Burton, not Duane Wilson.
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I don't know about that. I think Cheatham is better right now. And, his upside IMO, is much higher.
I was classifying him as more of a wing. Classic small forward. But I agree with your general assessment.