MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Hards Alumni on February 04, 2016, 04:50:37 AM
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Many of us are happy and yet we are unhappy with the job that Wojo and his staff have done so far this year. Where does the buck stop with this team? Who has developed as a player (outside of MAYBE JJJ), and on who does this fall? Will anyone be held accountable? Should it be the assistants? Are our assistants anything more than former players that can't coach or develop players?
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Having not sounded much on this board but is my estimation Wojo needs either a gray hair or no hair to help manage this team. Someone who he can rely on for some experienced advice.
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Physical development takes longer than skill development, and the former is arguably more important for this team. They have a bunch of guys with slight frames going up against men.
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It is a recruiting philosophy issue, not a coaching issue. Tough to win with a small, skinny, team against big strong teams.
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It is a recruiting philosophy issue, not a coaching issue. Tough to win with a small, skinny, team against big strong teams.
This comment applies to exactly 3guys Wojo recruited -Henry Haanif and Traci. Hence your comment makes no sense.
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The two guys that might have helped this team most (after missing on Lee and Miller) were Kyle Washington and Austin Nichols.
In practice, do Henry and Luke always guard each other? That's the only way for them to play against guys that are starter caliber in this league, and thus to toughen them up. But if they do, how do they get used to playing together?
We need another PF, not just for toughness in games but to toughen these guys every day.
The roster needs balancing. My worry is losing Henry and not adding a PF for next year. Who will be able to be that second guy banging with the likes of Delgado and Sanogo? And if we miss Howard, we suddenly have 1 PG, 2 bigs, and 8 guys at the 2/3 positions.
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It is a recruiting philosophy issue, not a coaching issue. Tough to win with a small, skinny, team against big strong teams.
There seems to be a disconnect somewhere. We were told that Wojo emphasized the rebounding disparity from the last SH game in preparing for this one. Either the team doesn't listen, isn't capable of doing what needs to be done, or the staff that is capable of recognizing the problems are unable to teach how to correct the problem.
I'm leaning towards "isn't capable."
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There seems to be a disconnect somewhere. We were told that Wojo emphasized the rebounding disparity from the last SH game in preparing for this one. Either the team doesn't listen, isn't capable of doing what needs to be done, or the staff that is capable of recognizing the problems are unable to teach how to correct the problem.
I'm leaning towards "isn't capable."
I tend to agree that it's largely a young roster that's having trouble executing. But ultimately doesn't that fall on coaching? I'm always left with the feeling that some coaches would be drawing more from this talented--albeit young--team. With a little more grit and discipline, I really feel this team could have flipped a couple losses and we'd be a bubble team.
What's most concerning is not necessarily that we're losing games but that in many instances we're not even COMPETITIVE late in the game. That suggests there are problems all the way through.
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I am also leaning toward 'isn't capable'. Wally trying to contest at the rim was the problem in microcosm. Wally is a tremendous, world class athlete and a complete gamer. He made a very athletic move to rotate down and try to contest the shot at the rim, just as he has been taught to do by the coaches. He elevated and...... accomplished nothing as the guy 2 inches taller and 40 lbs heavier didn't even notice.
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Wojo is an excellent coach. Buzz had the three amigos with a chip on their shoulders when he took over. Crean was 15-14 his first two years before he got D. Wade. People who say get rid of Wojo reminds me when I was in Detroit and idiots were saying to get rid of Scotty Bowman because he didn't win the Stanley Cup his first three years.
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In practice, do Henry and Luke always guard each other? That's the only way for them to play against guys that are starter caliber in this league, and thus to toughen them up. But if they do, how do they get used to playing together?
We need another PF, not just for toughness in games but to toughen these guys every day.
wojo made a comment not too long ago that matt heldt beats on fischer in practice. i think that's all you need to know. i have probably been overly critical of his lack of toughness. it is what it is, and he's going to play the way he does. i actually thought he was as aggressive as i've seen last night. we've watched a variety of bigs come through MU and some played tough while others didn't...and they played for the same coach.
buzz had a few poor recruiting classes, guys transferred out, and when he left it messed with a few more classes. i'm willing to give wojo some time...he wasn't left with much.
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Didn't see the game but this is a young team. Yes they need to be more physical. It will come with experience. Jae and Jimmy weren't physical enough to start with either.
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I think Wojo will be fine. The problem is that we have a very young team being coached by a very inexperienced head coach. Guys like Calipari and K can win with frosh and sophs, in part because they have been head coaches for decades. Wojo is still learning.
Buzz was able to start winning more quickly because the core that first team was the Amigos and Zar. Those four guys had more experience than this entire roster combined.
Wojo will be fine...with time.
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I think Wojo will be fine. The problem is that we have a very young team being coached by a very inexperienced head coach. Guys like Calipari and K can win with frosh and sophs, in part because they have been head coaches for decades. Wojo is still learning.
Buzz was able to start winning more quickly because the core that first team was the Amigos and Zar. Those four guys had more experience than this entire roster combined.
Wojo will be fine...with time.
Calipari and K also get the best talent in the country.
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I think Wojo will be fine. The problem is that we have a very young team being coached by a very inexperienced head coach. Guys like Calipari and K can win with frosh and sophs, in part because they have been head coaches for decades. Wojo is still learning.
Buzz was able to start winning more quickly because the core that first team was the Amigos and Zar. Those four guys had more experience than this entire roster combined.
Wojo will be fine...with time.
Seton Hall stared five sophomores with Kevin Willard as the coach. Young team with an average coach, who has turned that team around.
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As Dr. B mentioned in the SH thoughts thread, why haven't we tried to slow the tempo? 3rd fastest team in the conference right now. Last in OR% and 9th in TO%, we are giving the ball to the other team a lot. Seems we should try and limit the amount of possessions if we can't help the TOs or emphasize OR.
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Seton Hall stared five sophomores with Kevin Willard as the coach. Young team with an average coach, who has turned that team around.
How did Willard do last season, when those sophomores were frosh?
And he had been a HC since 2007....
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A team that went through the losing last year, went out and found a senior transfer who contributes and leads. And clearly has spent a lot of time in the weight room.
Just a thought, for those of you who played high school sports or have children who have played/are playing high school sports. Can the freshman team beat the varsity? Or are the juniors and seniors more physically developed?
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Wojo's very first recruit, Gabe Levin, was a proven D1 Forward with size and rebounding ability. So it is not like he didn't recognize the issue. Unfortunately Levin flaked out on us and re transferred in the fall last year. Really lousy timing.
Losing Steve Taylor also hurt us more than many thought it would. I understand his logic in transferring and think he will do well next year at Toledo. When he was healthy he worked the boards hard ( I know some will point out he missed a lot of bunnies, which is true).
At this point we need to find a grad transfer or juco power forwards for immediate help. Has to be the number one two and three priority.
Also I think some of the problem will go away next year when Cheatham has a year under his belt. I like Cheatham a lot. but he is telegraphing everything he does. The other teams know it. Never looks to pass and as such is a turnover machine. I think he will be more secure in his position next year and thus be a more effective team player. Right now he has a classic freshman attitude that he has to do it all himself. Needs to let the game come to him more. When that happens we will be able to take advantage of our team quickness more which will offset the toughness issue .
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How did Willard do last season, when those sophomores were frosh?
And he had been a HC since 2007....
16-15, with 6-12 in BE play. Probably what MU might end up with this year. That was the point, lets see what happens next year when Wojo has no Henry and no replacement and will be in his third full year. Wojo will also have upper class men, so it can be done.
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Wojo is an excellent coach. Buzz had the three amigos with a chip on their shoulders when he took over. Crean was 15-14 his first two years before he got D. Wade. People who say get rid of Wojo reminds me when I was in Detroit and idiots were saying to get rid of Scotty Bowman because he didn't win the Stanley Cup his first three years.
Not sure we know anywhere near enough at this point to make that declaration. I see plenty of reasons to withhold judgment on what he is as a coach...that being said I agree with the rest.
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Also I think some of the problem will go away next year when Cheatham has a year under his belt. I like Cheatham a lot. but he is telegraphing everything he does. The other teams know it. Never looks to pass and as such is a turnover machine. I think he will be more secure in his position next year and thus be a more effective team player. Right now he has a classic freshman attitude that he has to do it all himself.
He reminds me so much of Jerel as a freshman.
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He reminds me so much of Jerel as a freshman.
he reminds me of a player that does not have high basketball IQ. To many drives to the hoop with no place to go, because his game is flawed since he does not have
a jump shot. It is either a crazy drive out of control, or a set shot for a three. Once he learns to stop and pop he will be really good. You would think after 25 games and coaching that he would learn to do something different. Oh well. Needs to add 25 pounds of muscle much like the whole team. Hall was much more athletic, much
quicker, better athletes. Simple to see. Men against boys.
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He has a high basketball IQ. He has never played the point before and he needs to get stronger.
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It is a recruiting philosophy issue, not a coaching issue. Tough to win with a small, skinny, team against big strong teams.
It isn't if you are a very skilled team, like Louisville was when they won the national championship
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Louisville wasn't small. They were exceedingly fast, too. And had experienced depth. This is how they could pressure all over the place and play over a devastating injury. MU isn't particularly fast and hasn't built up the experience or depth.
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He has a high basketball IQ. He has never played the point before and he needs to get stronger.
Your definition and mine are truly different. Yes, he is not a point guard, but once the offense is set, you do not need a point guard. Just have to play the game. Many
times Cheatham gets pass his man on the baseline and wants to take it straight to the hole. Now if he would take the 10 footer instead of running into a big and he
then throws up some wild shot, is that high IQ, or driving thru 3 players and taking another bad shot. In high school he could do that, in the Big East no. A perfect example would be the drive to the hoop on the break and getting it slammed into the third row, does not know what to do there. He really does not have great hops compared
to the other athletic players Hall had, ball fakes, maybe, up and under, something.
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He was effective taking it to the hole early in the year. Averaging double figures, people singing his praises as an under the radar freshman. The other coaches are smart, too. There is now a scouting report on him. They know that when he beats his man that they will meet him at the rim. I think he is a freshman who needs to broaden his game and make adjustments now that the other teams have adjusted to him. This takes time. You think he has a low basketball IQ. We see the same problems, the same symptoms, but disagree with the diagnosis.
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He has a high basketball IQ. He has never played the point before and he needs to get stronger.
He needs to learn how to use his right hand (nh).
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He was effective taking it to the hole early in the year. Averaging double figures, people singing his praises as an under the radar freshman. The other coaches are smart, too. There is now a scouting report on him. They know that when he beats his man that they will meet him at the rim. I think he is a freshman who needs to broaden his game and make adjustments now that the other teams have adjusted to him. This takes time. You think he has a low basketball IQ. We see the same problems, the same symptoms, but disagree with the diagnosis.
I agree with this. He has a high IQ - which to me, means he understands the game very well for a freshman. This doesn't mean he makes the right decision all the time, but it leads me to believe he will be coachable, and will make big strides in his career.
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Wojo is an excellent coach. Buzz had the three amigos with a chip on their shoulders when he took over. Crean was 15-14 his first two years before he got D. Wade. People who say get rid of Wojo reminds me when I was in Detroit and idiots were saying to get rid of Scotty Bowman because he didn't win the Stanley Cup his first three years.
I don't think we know yet if Wojo is an excellent coach. We also do not know if he is a bad coach. We also do not know if he is a mediocre coach who is on his way toward becoming a good coach or a bad coach. The body of work simply is not broad enough yet.
Otherwise, sold post. Lots of Scoopers would have fired Al, Coach K and Wooden when they didn't win enough games their first couple seasons.
It takes time to rebuild a program, and we definitely needed rebuilding.
By this time next year, we might be able to make better judgments. By this time two years from now, we might be able to draw some actual conclusions.
And having said all of this, it doesn't really matter what a single Scooper thinks. Marquette's administration obviously really likes Wojo, and he isn't going anywhere for at least another 2-3 years.
But yes, I know, this is a fan board and we have to talk about something. Might as well be the coach's "leash"!
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Really, there's only one question that matters this year?
Is the team's lack of consistent development a lack of effective coaching and teaching – or is it simply a byproduct of youth and chemistry?
We won't know the answer until next year.
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I vote for the latter. Wojo's got plenty of coaching experience at Duke as assistant.
We don't have the hops or the muscle to rebound and it kills us.
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Otherwise, sold post. Lots of Scoopers would have fired Al, Coach K and Wooden when they didn't win enough games their first couple seasons.
Wrong on Al. He inherited a 6-21 team and in year 2 was 14-12, 112% better than his predecessor. Wrong on John Wooden. He was 46-14 (.767) his first two years at UCLA.
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Wojo is an excellent coach. Buzz had the three amigos with a chip on their shoulders when he took over. Crean was 15-14 his first two years before he got D. Wade. People who say get rid of Wojo reminds me when I was in Detroit and idiots were saying to get rid of Scotty Bowman because he didn't win the Stanley Cup his first three years.
What about him and his teams he has led so far screams 'excellent coach' to you? At best, I'd say the jury's still out, but I don't get what leads people to believe he's clearly a good/great coach other than pure homerism.
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Really, there's only one question that matters this year?
Is the team's lack of consistent development a lack of effective coaching and teaching – or is it simply a byproduct of youth and chemistry?
We won't know the answer until next year.
What worries me is that no one is getting better.
Wojo was an assistant coach for 15 years. That's a lot of time to learn how to develop players.
Also, I feel like I say this every year (4 years running)... we have no shooters on our team. Teams pack the lane and let us jack 3s and bad 2s... or they wait for us at the rim where we have a lot of problems finishing, outside of Luke and HE, of course.
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Wrong on Al. He inherited a 6-21 team and in year 2 was 14-12, 112% better than his predecessor. Wrong on John Wooden. He was 46-14 (.767) his first two years at UCLA.
Spin it however you'd like, but Al was 22-30 his first two seasons. If you are trying to claim that Wojo inherited a team on the cusp of greatness, you are off-base IMHO. You are allowed to think otherwise. All of this stuff is opinion.
Yes, I was wrong on Wooden. I must have been thinking about somebody else. Having said that and having just looked up the numbers ... after consistently producing fine seasons at UCLA, including 21+ wins in years 7, 8 and 9, he averaged only 15 wins over the next three seasons. That would have been Scoopageddon here, and he would have been put on a "leash" probably during his first sub-par season.
Dean Smith's win totals his first 5 seasons at UNC: 66-47 with zero NCAA or NIT bids.
After a 19-win first season with the previous regime's recruits, here were Jim Calhoun's records his next six years at Northeastern: 12-11, 12-12, 12-13, 12-14, 14-12 and 13-13. He eventually righted the ship and left for UConn, where in his first three seasons he went 47-46 with zero NCAA bids.
Calipari was 27-32 his first two seasons at UMass, his first head-coaching job. In his first five seasons at Memphis, he managed a total of one NCAA tournament win.
After two OK seasons at Boston U, Rick Pitino went 13-14 in Season 3.
Shall I go on?
Nah, but I'll finish with this ...
Many here have fond memories of Kevin O'Neill, who has either failed spectacularly every place he has coached or has cut and run just as he has started building anything.
Maybe Wojo is no K.O. ... and frankly, for the long-term health of the program, I hope he isn't.
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Calipari and K also get the best talent in the country.
I would love to see where MU ranks amongst highest ranked prospects in the country, we have a ton of high ranked kids:
PG - Cheatham - #76 Natl comp
SG - Duane - #59 Natl comp
SF - JJJ - #32 Natl comp
PF - Fish - #88 Natl comp
C - Henry - #9 Natl comp
Average starter HS ranking - 52.8
Sandy - #74 Natl comp
Heldt - #136 Natl comp
Traci - #126 Natl comp
Only Sacar & Wally are outside the top 150 per "247" national comp
---- DePaul has 2 players in top 150. One is Billy Garrett (#88), coaches son. And the other is a transfer Myke Henry (#63). Now that is an empty house compared to here
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What worries me is that no one is getting better.
Of the returning players, I totally agree that Sandy has not improved.
On the other hand, JJJ and Luke look better to me.
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Of the returning players, I totally agree that Sandy has not improved.
On the other hand, JJJ and Luke look better to me.
Despite his recent struggles, Sandy is definitely a better player than he was last season. Duane, Luke and JJJ are all improved as well.
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Wrong on Al. He inherited a 6-21 team and in year 2 was 14-12, 112% better than his predecessor. Wrong on John Wooden. He was 46-14 (.767) his first two years at UCLA.
Those numbers are true, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be scoopers screaming about how we aren't winning enough games. We're not exactly a rational bunch. Wojo inherited a program where Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson were starters. That's a terrible starting position. He's already improved greatly from last season but we're still screaming about him and asking about his leash.
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Despite his recent struggles, Sandy is definitely a better player than he was last season. Duane, Luke and JJJ are all improved as well.
Fair enough on Sandy. I'll agree he is definitely better on defense and knowing where he should be on the court.
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What worries me is that no one is getting better.
Wojo was an assistant coach for 15 years. That's a lot of time to learn how to develop players.
This isn't true at all. JJJ is MUCH improved from last season. Luke is improved. Duane is improved though honestly not as much as I would have hoped. Sandy has not improved. That has been tough to see.
The other 5 are freshmen. They've had no time to improve.
There seems to be this myth that players get drastically better as the season goes on. This is simply not true. Development truly happens in the offseason. Improvement during the season is very limited and tends to be on very specific things. Most players' stats actually get worse as the season goes on because of increased competition level in the conference season.
Give this team an offseason to grow up and we will see radical improvement. We've got a great foundation. Answering the rebounding question if Henry leaves will be the biggest challenge. Figure that out, and this team will be very good.
Also, I feel like I say this every year (4 years running)... we have no shooters on our team. Teams pack the lane and let us jack 3s and bad 2s... or they wait for us at the rim where we have a lot of problems finishing, outside of Luke and HE, of course.
Our season average for 3P% is about 1% below the national average. We are not a bad 3P shooting team. Were just not a good one. Again, another year of experience and those shooters will get even better....and if Henry leaves our 3P% would increase dramatically...wish I was kidding. Add in Hauser, Rowsey, and potentially Howard and we will be lights out next season.
Young teams are frustrating but its exciting to know that they are only going up.
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I would love to see where MU ranks amongst highest ranked prospects in the country, we have a ton of high ranked kids:
PG - Cheatham - #76 Natl comp
SG - Duane - #59 Natl comp
SF - JJJ - #32 Natl comp
PF - Fish - #88 Natl comp
C - Henry - #9 Natl comp
Average starter HS ranking - 52.8
Sandy - #74 Natl comp
Heldt - #136 Natl comp
Traci - #126 Natl comp
Only Sacar & Wally are outside the top 150 per "247" national comp
---- DePaul has 2 players in top 150. One is Billy Garrett (#88), coaches son. And the other is a transfer Myke Henry (#63). Now that is an empty house compared to here
Talent is only half of the equation. You also need experience. Unfortunately, we are bottom ten in that category.
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Talent is only half of the equation.
And the right mix of guys.
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Correct. Next year, MU isn't going to be in the bottom 10 of experience in all of college basketball. (barring a mass exodus). But if Henry leaves and the hole at the 4 isn't addressed, MU is still going to struggle in conference. Too many big bodies for Luke and Matt to handle by themselves. Team balance matters, too.
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Spin it however you'd like, but Al was 22-30 his first two seasons. If you are trying to claim that Wojo inherited a team on the cusp of greatness, you are off-base IMHO. You are allowed to think otherwise. All of this stuff is opinion.
Me spinning it? LOL. You're the spinmeister. The idea that MU fans were disappointed at any time in Al's first two years is true only in your imagination. Freshman weren't eligible when Al started coaching so in his first year he was stuck with nothing but the dumpster fire Ed Hickey left behind (a 6-21 team). So the first year was a total mulligan while we waited for Al's first recruiting class to become eligible - but even with that, there was improvement (to 8-18). In his second year (with that first recruiting class eligible) we jumped to 14-12 - and every MU fan knew that the best player on the campus (George Thompson) was eligible the next year. Marquette fan's attitudes back then were curiosity that became unbridled optimism by year two). I was one of those unbridled optimists. Maybe you've seen something in Wojo's first two years that you think warrants unbridled optimism. I haven't.
So you're still wrong on Al and Wooden in spite of your spinning. And if you can name 10 coaches who struggled early but eventually succeeded, I can probably name 100 who struggled early and failed. I like Wojo and hope for the best - but any MU fan who isn't a little concerned isn't paying attention.
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I like Wojo and hope for the best - but any MU fan who isn't a little concerned isn't paying attention.
What concerns me is there's no identity to this team. We've heard for years how tough Marquette guys are. The pros wear it as a badge of honor. I don't see that in this group. Traci is the one guy that plays with an edge.
Maybe that will come as guys get older. Say what you will about Brent, but you knew his guys were gonna be tough SOBs that competed. This group lets a few bad trips down the floor derail them.
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I don't think we know yet if Wojo is an excellent coach. We also do not know if he is a bad coach. We also do not know if he is a mediocre coach who is on his way toward becoming a good coach or a bad coach. The body of work simply is not broad enough yet.
Otherwise, sold post. Lots of Scoopers would have fired Al, Coach K and Wooden when they didn't win enough games their first couple seasons.
It takes time to rebuild a program, and we definitely needed rebuilding.
By this time next year, we might be able to make better judgments. By this time two years from now, we might be able to draw some actual conclusions.
And having said all of this, it doesn't really matter what a single Scooper thinks. Marquette's administration obviously really likes Wojo, and he isn't going anywhere for at least another 2-3 years.
But yes, I know, this is a fan board and we have to talk about something. Might as well be the coach's "leash"!
When it comes to basketball IQ, it is how you change your game when the scouting report says: All left hand, does not use his right on lay-ups or dribbling,
has two shots, a lay-up or 3 point shot. Does not jump real well, plays below the rim, has nice size for a guard.
Sort of like Luke yesterday, finally took a 15 foot shot from the free-throw line, always wide open. Knocks that down, becomes a better offensive player. In that run
by Hall, Luke turned the ball over twice and missed 2 lefty hooks, that is all it takes, game changing.
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What concerns me is there's no identity to this team. We've heard for years how tough Marquette guys are. The pros wear it as a badge of honor. I don't see that in this group. Traci is the one guy that plays with an edge.
Maybe that will come as guys get older. Say what you will about Brent, but you knew his guys were gonna be tough SOBs that competed. This group lets a few bad trips down the floor derail them.
I've shared similar thoughts on here about this team having no clear-cut strength (strength, identity same difference). There's nothing that opponents know MU is going to bring night in and night out - whether that's toughness or pressure D or outside shooting or rebounding or a run-and-gun style or whatever the case may be. MU just doesn't have that right now.
My other concern is that there haven't been a whole lot of in-season adjustments. The strategy doesn't look much different now than it did in November and the team's weaknesses (rebounding and unforced TOs) haven't been effectively reduced.
Last night, in game 23 of the season, there were still times when a shot would go up and guys in close proximity to the basket would stand and watch. That's unacceptable.
Another example, Henry is shooting the same number of 3s in BE play as he was in non-conf play and he's shooting the same lowly percentage (~28%). He's got the most talent offensively on this team but his outside shot isn't there. Time to try something different - get him on the block, get him to the FT line, get him moving towards the basket, pick-and-roll, pick-and-pop, etc.
The one obvious adjustment that has been made is getting JJJ the ball with some space to drive. That's JJJ's game and it's good to see him put in that position more regularly.
That said, I'm not ready to give up on Wojo or start wondering about his "leash" but, as I've stated before, I'd really like to see a grizzled, experienced coach added to the staff.
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What concerns me is there's no identity to this team. We've heard for years how tough Marquette guys are. The pros wear it as a badge of honor. I don't see that in this group. Traci is the one guy that plays with an edge.
Maybe that will come as guys get older. Say what you will about Brent, but you knew his guys were gonna be tough SOBs that competed. This group lets a few bad trips down the floor derail them.
I see that in Hanif as well. It's early, but I think it's there. And I think we remember that because it was our star guys that had that attitude, and it was that attitude that made them so good, here and in the association. I do agree that whatever it was, we need more of it now.
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That said, I'm not ready to give up on Wojo or start wondering about his "leash" but, as I've stated before, I'd really like to see a grizzled, experienced coach added to the staff.
Didn't Jerry Wainwright interview for spot on staff & help the squad transition between Buzz / Wojo era's? Or was that not an option
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As far as whether players have improved, I'd say many have. Duane is better. Luke is better. Jajuan is much better. Sandy looked better in November and December, but less so recently. The jury is out there.
As others have noted, these guys are still very young. We have 7 guys that play 50% or more of the minutes. Of those, 2 are juniors, 2 are sophomores, and 3 are freshmen.
Wojo was noted as an excellent developer of talent at Duke. Whether he can translate that with lesser rated players at Marquette in the head role remains to be seen, but I did like that last year, both Carlino and Derrick had their best seasons as collegiate players. Juan and Steve both went from minimal contributors to solid rotation guys. The results may not have been fantastic, but all four of those guys had their best seasons last year under Wojo. I have to think that's a good sign.
Hopefully we'll see continued improvement next year. I think the process is taking longer than many hoped, and frankly it's hard to watch such inconsistency. However at least this year, we have been able to have a little hope. We had a 9-game winning streak that included wins over LSU, ASU, and Wisconsin. We reached 4 conference wins before the end of January. Last year we didn't get there until March 7. Hell, last year at this time we were 10-12 and already knew we wouldn't even be playing in the CBI. This year we have a (far) outside shot at the NCAAs but can realistically see a possibility of getting a NIT berth.
We need strength inside and don't have it, and don't see it coming at the moment. But after inheriting a complete trainwreck of a roster, Wojo has really only had one season to rebuild. This will probably take another year or two to really get where we want it to be. I understand the frustration, because I'm frustrated too, but this is better than it was a year ago, and I believe there are talented enough players here to compete in this league, but it might take until 2017-18 before we're happy with those results.
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I was in favor of getting Wisconsin H.S. BB Players. Good ones. After last night, our state players
can't play with these "Big City" Playground kids.I am wrong. Also, they must pump iron and ours are veggies..
Ha!Ha!
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Wojo was noted as an excellent developer of talent at Duke. Whether he can translate that with lesser rated players at Marquette in the head role remains to be seen, but I did like that last year, both Carlino and Derrick had their best seasons as collegiate players. Juan and Steve both went from minimal contributors to solid rotation guys. The results may not have been fantastic, but all four of those guys had their best seasons last year under Wojo. I have to think that's a good sign.
Last year reminded me of the woeful 76ers when Evan Turner & MCW would put up garbage stats because they played so much & had nobody else to replace them.
Carlino played 5 more min then ever before and raised avg 1.3 pts (13.7 to 15.0), lowest ast total ever, lowest FG %.
Derrick played career high in mpg & raised avg from 5 ppg to 5.6 & ast from 4.2 to 4.7
Juan jumped from 13 mpg to 29 mpg
Steve jumped from 10 mpg to 23 mpg (3 ppg / 3 reb to 6 ppg / 5 reb)
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You're looking at the wrong numbers.
Carlino had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, and highest 3PFG%. Assist rate was down, but that's because he was the secondary PG.
Derrick had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, highest 3PFG%, highest 2PFG%, and highest assist rate.
Juan had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, highest 3PFG%, and highest 2PFG%.
Steve is the only one you could really make a case against, as he was more efficient his freshman year, but last year was definitely his most consistent season.
As has been noted, normally as minutes and usage go up, efficiency goes down. For those guys, that wasn't the case. In my eyes, that's still a good sign and not worth dismissing.
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You're looking at the wrong numbers.
Carlino had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, and highest 3PFG%. Assist rate was down, but that's because he was the secondary PG.
Derrick had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, highest 3PFG%, highest 2PFG%, and highest assist rate.
Juan had his highest offensive efficiency, highest eFG%, highest 3PFG%, and highest 2PFG%.
Steve is the only one you could really make a case against, as he was more efficient his freshman year, but last year was definitely his most consistent season.
As has been noted, normally as minutes and usage go up, efficiency goes down. For those guys, that wasn't the case. In my eyes, that's still a good sign and not worth dismissing.
And that was all thanks to Wojo?
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And that was all thanks to Wojo?
No. But it certainly wasn't in spite of him.
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We've got some soft players. Need a couple JUCOs. M Jax style.
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This thread reminds me of a point someone else made a while ago. I think it was on a cracked sidewalks podcast. Henry Ellenson was the best and worst thing to happen to Wojo. On the plus side, he is a major talent, will be in the NBA soon, and was a major recruiting coup. On the negative, it artificially accelerated everyone's expectations for this team. I think most of us were reserved to have another down rebuilding year. When Henry signed we thought "We got a burger boy! Anything less than a sweet 16 is a failure!" Without realizing that the rest of the roster is still incomplete.
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This thread reminds me of a point someone else made a while ago. I think it was on a cracked sidewalks podcast. Henry Ellenson was the best and worst thing to happen to Wojo. On the plus side, he is a major talent, will be in the NBA soon, and was a major recruiting coup. On the negative, it artificially accelerated everyone's expectations for this team. I think most of us were reserved to have another down rebuilding year. When Henry signed we thought "We got a burger boy! Anything less than a sweet 16 is a failure!" Without realizing that the rest of the roster is still incomplete.
Agree completely with that. If Henry goes to say MSU and Steve sticks around, we're probably a few games worse than we are now, but people may actually be happier with the results.
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We've got some soft players.
I understand Louisville has a novel program for eliminating softness in players.
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There seems to be a disconnect somewhere. We were told that Wojo emphasized the rebounding disparity from the last SH game in preparing for this one. Either the team doesn't listen, isn't capable of doing what needs to be done, or the staff that is capable of recognizing the problems are unable to teach how to correct the problem.
I'm leaning towards "isn't capable."
In the second half Ellenson lost two rebounds right under the basket. One turned into a three for Seton Hall and the other two points. As good of a rebounder as Ellenson is he still is not a rebounder through contact. He is still learning to deal with the physicalness of college basketball. You can also see it on his drives as he usually misses when he is met with minor contact on his drives.
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Also I think some of the problem will go away next year when Cheatham has a year under his belt. I like Cheatham a lot. but he is telegraphing everything he does. The other teams know it. Never looks to pass and as such is a turnover machine. I think he will be more secure in his position next year and thus be a more effective team player. Right now he has a classic freshman attitude that he has to do it all himself. Needs to let the game come to him more. When that happens we will be able to take advantage of our team quickness more which will offset the toughness issue .
I think this somewhat falls on the coach. Cheatnam is a good three point shooter, but he has been taught to drive to the basket whenever possible. The trouble is that with today's scouting the other team knows that is what he is going to do. Wojo needs to have him shoot more from the outside to stop the defense from collapsing inside.
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I agree with this. He has a high IQ - which to me, means he understands the game very well for a freshman. This doesn't mean he makes the right decision all the time, but it leads me to believe he will be coachable, and will make big strides in his career.
All a basketball IQ really means is that you can play the way the coach wants you to. Anim came in the game last night and immediately threw up a three and he was done for the night. That is a low basketball IQ. Cheatnam drives because that is Wojo's philosophy. Cheatnam has a very good three point shot and would be extremely effective at Notre Dame where they run their three point shooters off of picks.
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Win any day, ai na? Next few games a tough stretch. The melt down on Scoop will be a Wojo Fondue.
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Win any day, ai na? Next few games a tough stretch. The melt down on Scoop will be a Wojo Fondue.
I don't see any way we beat Xavier, but I actually like how we match up in the four after that. Providence may be without Bentil, Creighton is good but I think we match up okay with them, and I'll be very disappointed if DePaul sweeps us. Granted, we could lose all four of those and it would be a meltdown here, but I expect we'll win 2-3 of those.
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Despite his recent struggles, Sandy is definitely a better player than he was last season. Duane, Luke and JJJ are all improved as well.
Sandy's strength right now is defense. Can guard multiple positions, has active hands and he's a solid rebounder for the 2-3 spot. In most lineups, he's probably the fourth or fifth option on offense. Hasn't shown much ability to drive from the perimeter, but he's got a nice shot from outside.
Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised at how good the defense has been with this team. That's rare for young players. If you blame the coaches for not developing the offense, they deserve some credit for getting these guys to play pretty tough D.
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Player development is a multi-year task. For those of you on the "Wojo isn't developing guys" bandwagon, look at how much better Matt Heldt is vs. the summer games. Yes, it's limited minutes, but a massive improvement in his physique and his capability. JJJ's shot is fixed. Buzz never tried, but now it's a technically correct shot and he's a good threat to shoot or drive. Luke's improvements seem to be injury/recovery related, but I look for more from him as he gets time to build muscle.
My only criticism of Wojo is that he brought ACC players into the Big East. I'm sure he's already figured this out, but it can't be fixed mid-season!
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Player development is a multi-year task. For those of you on the "Wojo isn't developing guys" bandwagon, look at how much better Matt Heldt is vs. the summer games. Yes, it's limited minutes, but a massive improvement in his physique and his capability. JJJ's shot is fixed. Buzz never tried, but now it's a technically correct shot and he's a good threat to shoot or drive. Luke's improvements seem to be injury/recovery related, but I look for more from him as he gets time to build muscle.
My only criticism of Wojo is that he brought ACC players into the Big East. I'm sure he's already figured this out, but it can't be fixed mid-season!
To Buzz's credit, he only had JJ for his freshman year. Remember how broken Vander's shot was and how much it improved by his junior year. No reason to think Buzz couldn't have helped JJ improve as well.
Well, aside for the whole JJ was going to transfer if Buzz stayed rumor, but since JJ is rumored to transfer every 2-3 months (and thank god he hasn't) I have no idea how much validity that has.
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Me spinning it? LOL. You're the spinmeister. The idea that MU fans were disappointed at any time in Al's first two years is true only in your imagination. Freshman weren't eligible when Al started coaching so in his first year he was stuck with nothing but the dumpster fire Ed Hickey left behind (a 6-21 team). So the first year was a total mulligan while we waited for Al's first recruiting class to become eligible - but even with that, there was improvement (to 8-18). In his second year (with that first recruiting class eligible) we jumped to 14-12 - and every MU fan knew that the best player on the campus (George Thompson) was eligible the next year. Marquette fan's attitudes back then were curiosity that became unbridled optimism by year two). I was one of those unbridled optimists. Maybe you've seen something in Wojo's first two years that you think warrants unbridled optimism. I haven't.
So you're still wrong on Al and Wooden in spite of your spinning. And if you can name 10 coaches who struggled early but eventually succeeded, I can probably name 100 who struggled early and failed. I like Wojo and hope for the best - but any MU fan who isn't a little concerned isn't paying attention.
I didn't say MU folks were disappointed with Al way back when, so don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that if Al had the start he did in today's sporting climate, there would have been dopes starting "Al's leash" threads on the interwebs.
And yes, I named coaches who struggled early before eventually succeeding. And if they coached in today's win-immediately atmosphere, they either would have been fired or would have strongly come under fire from the fan base. Very possibly, Coach K wouldn't have gotten a chance to win 200 games, let alone 1,000.
Maybe I didn't name "100 who struggled early and failed" because I'm generally a positive, optimistic person.
One thing I know I am is realistic. So even if I hated the job Wojo is doing -- I don't; I still have high hopes for him -- I'm pragmatic enough to know it doesn't matter. He ain't going anywhere for several more years.
I love the Warriors, but it's only sports. I want us to win, but I simply refuse to get my undies in a bundle because a bunch of 19-year-olds might not meet somebody's expectations.
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This thread reminds me of a point someone else made a while ago. I think it was on a cracked sidewalks podcast. Henry Ellenson was the best and worst thing to happen to Wojo. On the plus side, he is a major talent, will be in the NBA soon, and was a major recruiting coup. On the negative, it artificially accelerated everyone's expectations for this team. I think most of us were reserved to have another down rebuilding year. When Henry signed we thought "We got a burger boy! Anything less than a sweet 16 is a failure!" Without realizing that the rest of the roster is still incomplete.
Duke & Kentucky got LOTS of burger boys and how is that working out?
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I think the current starting team of Wilson, JJJ, Cheatnam, Fischer & Henry is the right lineup. Hindsight is easy. I think at the start he should of went Wilson, JJJ, Cohen, Fischer and Henry. You need to lean on your most experienced players, because you never know what you are going to get with freshmen. Wojo made the decision to developer Haanif and Carter instead of putting the best starting lineup out there. He was able to get away with this in the non conference schedule, because it was loaded with bunnies. It probably has benefited Carter and Cheatnam, but I do not think our starting group is as strong as it could be now, if they were playing together from day one. Is this a coaching error? I do not know, but I do think in hindsight it was not the best way to go.
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I don't think the starting line of a few games ago was a problem in a game that was lost in the last ten minutes.
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I don't think the starting line of a few games ago was a problem in a game that was lost in the last ten minutes.
It is hard to say what effect it has and of course we will never know. You have the starting lineup from the beginning of the season and you can coach to that lineup. How they are going to run the offense and how they are going to play defense. It is a team game so the combinations matter. Instead of having to teach the young players the basics, Wojo could have concentrated on maximizing JJJ and Wilson. I do think Wilson spent the first half of the season in a funk. I am not sure, if that was because he was not starting or if he was not starting because he was in a funk.
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It is hard to say what effect it has and of course we will never know. You have the starting lineup from the beginning of the season and you can coach to that lineup. How they are going to run the offense and how they are going to play defense. It is a team game so the combinations matter. Instead of having to teach the young players the basics, Wojo could have concentrated on maximizing JJJ and Wilson. I do think Wilson spent the first half of the season in a funk. I am not sure, if that was because he was not starting or if he was not starting because he was in a funk.
I don't know about the starting lineup, but I do find Wojo's substitution patterns mystifying. Against SHU we were playing well out of the gate but he went to Cohen and Carter early and things turned around quickly for the worse. Not saying he is wrong, but usually by February I have a handle on the substitution patterns and an idea of what the coach may do in certain situations with personnel. This year I can't discern the pattern or the combos he likes because of the rotating lineups and continually changing combos of players he uses. I got used to Wally coming in when the energy was lagging etc, then that doesn't happen, etc. Part of coaching a young team, I guess.
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I think the current starting team of Wilson, JJJ, Cheatnam, Fischer & Henry is the right lineup. Hindsight is easy. I think at the start he should of went Wilson, JJJ, Cohen, Fischer and Henry.
You know for the first three games he used this exact lineup except for Cheatham instead of Cohen. And Cohen was first off the bench. We didn't look very good so he changed it up and we went on a 9 game winning streak.
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I don't know about the starting lineup, but I do find Wojo's substitution patterns mystifying. Against SHU we were playing well out of the gate but he went to Cohen and Carter early and things turned around quickly for the worse. Not saying he is wrong, but usually by February I have a handle on the substitution patterns and an idea of what the coach may do in certain situations with personnel. This year I can't discern the pattern or the combos he likes because of the rotating lineups and continually changing combos of players he uses. I got used to Wally coming in when the energy was lagging etc, then that doesn't happen, etc. Part of coaching a young team, I guess.
We were up 7-2 when Cohen and Carter came in. Right away on consecutive possessions, as I remember it, they both threw up a three and missed. Late in the half Anim came in and immediately threw up a three and missed. None of the shots were even close.
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We were up 7-2 when Cohen and Carter came in. Right away on consecutive possessions, as I remember it, they both threw up a three and missed. Late in the half Anim came in and immediately threw up a three and missed. None of the shots were even close.
Looking at the play-by-play now.
We actually were up 7-4 at the time of the substitutions. On the possession after the subs, Delgado made a layup to cut it to 7-6. Carter missed a 3. He then got a steal, leading to Cohen's missed 3. JJJ then missed a layup. Another layup by Delgado, then a turnover by Henry, leading to a SH free throw for a 9-7 lead. Baskets are traded before Carter hits a 3 to make it 14-14.
So it would appear that the substitution alone didn't doom Marquette.
We were down only 52-49 with 10 1/2 minutes to play when the barrage of SH treys actually doomed our lads.
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Substitutions are not the problem. Lack of shooting talent and inexperience is the problem and substitutions can't solve that.
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Sandy's strength right now is defense. Can guard multiple positions, has active hands and he's a solid rebounder for the 2-3 spot. In most lineups, he's probably the fourth or fifth option on offense. Hasn't shown much ability to drive from the perimeter, but he's got a nice shot from outside.
End quote.
Since BE play started, the Chief has 2 (two!) offensive boards in the equivalent of nearly six full games of playing time. His nice outside shot has him tooling along at a clip of under 12% from 3-point territory.
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Why mess with the narrative? Playing time is based on potential not results. This team is the team of the future, not the team of the past.