MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on November 24, 2015, 12:34:06 AM
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Well done. Old school.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/live-coverage-marquette-vs-lsu-b99621342z1-353094411.html
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http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=49382.0
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http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=49382.0
It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
i wouldn't look at it as a "public shaming" rather, a stripping down to the basics, a humility, a start from where ya came from, a new start...the coaching admittedly was as bad as the playing. not saying effort wasn't there, but execution. the coaches can draw up every winning play in the world on paper, but the players have to execute it. turnovers, ill-advised shots, missed 3 pointers, free throws, etc...time to start over. whoever buys in, gets rewarded. then the others will follow suit.
when would you have thought would be a good time to try this? the big east tourney? remember wojo played and learned from one of the best. we may be looking back at this point in the season with "holy schnikees" remember when wojo made them wear tee shirts...since then we've fill-in-the-blank?? yes it's "old school", but remember hoosiers?
the players needed a little "beat down", get pissed, play pissed, etc...i knew guys that played for crean-his tactics were way worse than this-actually they were down right nasty and that was when they were playing pretty good. wojo is doing the right thing here, and it includes himself; you don't think he himself isn't being humuliated so far? this is what you do, strip everything back and start over- the only thing he can't do at this point is put the rock in the hole
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
Two thoughts:
1. Perhaps the move that you consider a "gamble" is evidence of Wojo evolving as a coach and/or that he knows the team well enough that he was confident that such an approach would work. It seems to have.
2. Lots of coaches do things such as publicly acknowledge poor play and withhold 'luxuries,' including Wojo's mentor. "We have a thing on our team, a standard, we tell each other the truth. So you confront it," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said after the VCU game because of their poor showing against Kentucky. "He [Grayson Allen] didn't play well against Kentucky. He didn't have a good look and he didn't adjust. That was his first big time start too, it's not like Grayson's a combat veteran. So I was hard on him but honest." http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400827728 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400827728)
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Didn't Buzz make everyone earn their practice jersey ?
I don't know how you can complain about tactics when the team looked good/focused for the first time this year.
Well done Wojo
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Didn't Buzz make everyone earn their practice jersey ?
I don't know how you can complain about tactics when the team looked good/focused for the first time this year.
Well done Wojo
Yes. Buzz did the same thing and everyone on scoop thought it was charming.
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Let's also recall that every coach went to the white tee too acknowledging that they also hadn't earned the right to wear the MU colors or logo.
Look, I'm most pleased that they played with a warrior spirit last night. I'm also pleased that their commitment resulted in some positive reinforcement. Maybe 'soft and young' has just started to turn into 'gritty and accountable'.
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
I couldn't disagree more with this.
First and foremost, it obviously worked. So that's almost "case closed."
Second, sometimes even the best players in the world need to be reminded how to prepare and play properly. They have to be reminded they aren't guaranteed or entitled to anything. They have to be reminded that playing big-time sports is a privilege.
Third, as the article said: Wojciechowski and the coaching staff joined in the punishment, wearing plain white T-shirts of their own to match the players during Monday afternoon's shootaround. This was his way of saying: "I'm not thrilled with the way things are going, and I'm part of the reason as well." Players notice that.
Fourth, if you really think teaching life lessons isn't part of coaching, you must never have coached or played.
I do agree with you about one thing: Starting Carter and playing him most of the game was a good move, even if Carter (like everybody else) struggled with the press.
And finally, while you were ripping Wojo a new one despite employing a strategy that worked, it would have been nice if you had at least given him a thumbs-up for the winning offensive play. During the timeout, I told those around me at Barclays that I hoped he'd clear it out for JJJ, who was our most dynamic player most of the night.
As an aside, in recapping the game with my fellow Warriors a little later, I enjoyed saying: "Remember when JJJ was called a wasted scholarship?'"
Great win and a pretty darn good job by Wojo. It's a shame that the best you could come up with was criticism.
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your onlr argument is that if it doesn't work he loses the team - what evidence do you have that he would have lost the team? Bottom line is that EVERYONE should have been ashamed of what that team gave against Iowa and any player that thought the response was unjustified should get the hell out of our program.
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I couldn't disagree more with this.
First and foremost, it obviously worked. So that's almost "case closed."
Second, sometimes even the best players in the world need to be reminded how to prepare and play properly. They have to be reminded they aren't guaranteed or entitled to anything. They have to be reminded that playing big-time sports is a privilege.
Third, as the article said: Wojciechowski and the coaching staff joined in the punishment, wearing plain white T-shirts of their own to match the players during Monday afternoon's shootaround. This was his way of saying: "I'm not thrilled with the way things are going, and I'm part of the reason as well." Players notice that.
Fourth, if you really think teaching life lessons isn't part of coaching, you must never have coached or played.
I do agree with you about one thing: Starting Carter and playing him most of the game was a good move, even if Carter (like everybody else) struggled with the press.
And finally, while you were ripping Wojo a new one despite employing a strategy that worked, it would have been nice if you had at least given him a thumbs-up for the winning offensive play. During the timeout, I told those around me at Barclays that I hoped he'd clear it out for JJJ, who was our most dynamic player most of the night.
As an aside, in recapping the game with my fellow Warriors a little later, I enjoyed saying: "Remember when JJJ was called a wasted scholarship?'"
Great win and a pretty darn good job by Wojo. It's a shame that the best you could come up with was criticism.
+1.
I hope they never forget that Brooklyn playground. Maybe it'll be a good place to begin preparations prior to the BEast next March. Never forget where you're from.
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Well done Wojo & Co. LSU is no Iowa, but what a turnaround from Iowa.
Now need to continue the momentum forward. Won't be a straight line of course, but no more Iowa debacles. Learning and improving every game. Showed we are capable of improving and we have lots to still improve on.
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+1.
I hope they never forget that Brooklyn playground. Maybe it'll be a good place to begin preparations prior to the BEast next March. Never forget where you're from.
LOL. It will be like the training montage in Rocky IV.
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"We have a lot of growing up to do, and you don't grow up without earning things. You don't get accomplishment or achievement without earning things."
Develop a culture around this and success will be had. In more than just basketball.
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I couldn't disagree more with this.
First and foremost, it obviously worked. So that's almost "case closed."
Second, sometimes even the best players in the world need to be reminded how to prepare and play properly. They have to be reminded they aren't guaranteed or entitled to anything. They have to be reminded that playing big-time sports is a privilege.
Third, as the article said: Wojciechowski and the coaching staff joined in the punishment, wearing plain white T-shirts of their own to match the players during Monday afternoon's shootaround. This was his way of saying: "I'm not thrilled with the way things are going, and I'm part of the reason as well." Players notice that.
Fourth, if you really think teaching life lessons isn't part of coaching, you must never have coached or played.
I do agree with you about one thing: Starting Carter and playing him most of the game was a good move, even if Carter (like everybody else) struggled with the press.
And finally, while you were ripping Wojo a new one despite employing a strategy that worked, it would have been nice if you had at least given him a thumbs-up for the winning offensive play. During the timeout, I told those around me at Barclays that I hoped he'd clear it out for JJJ, who was our most dynamic player most of the night.
As an aside, in recapping the game with my fellow Warriors a little later, I enjoyed saying: "Remember when JJJ was called a wasted scholarship?'"
Great win and a pretty darn good job by Wojo. It's a shame that the best you could come up with was criticism.
I'm glad this win is evidence enough for you that all is well. I don't t feel the same.
I saw a team that looked as if it had never seen full court pressure. I understand the season is early, but how it it possible that a basic strategy for breaking the press hasn't been employed/practiced prior to the season starting? It's not like LSU was the second coming of '40 minutes of hell'. It was very basic pressure.
There were two stoppages in play under 90 seconds. I'm sorry, but anybody on this board would make sure to emphasize the importance of not shooting an open three pointer with a lead and a chance to bleed clock. That's a benchable offense. Either Duane Wilson is the dumbest basketball player to ever don an MU uniform or somebody didn't remind him of the importance of the situation ahead of time. It's really not hard. I have a rule in my company for my managers that if they break it they will be seeking employment elsewhere. I haven't had a single violation. Duane Wilson not having the same fear of taking an early three point attempt with the lead late in a game means it hasn't been stressed enough or at all.
I understand Simmons is an excellent player, but insisting that Luke/Henry guard him in transition for 40 minutes was a horrible decision that led to numerous transition buckets because they couldn't stick with him.
It was a good win last night, but let's not turn it into what it wasn't - a masterfully coached basketball game.
And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be. Whether one of these men goes on to the presidency or a life of crime has no bearing on Wojo as a basketball coach. That is measured in the columns of wins and losses.
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I saw a team that looked as if it had never seen full court pressure.
They hadn't yet, and they did the things that freshmen do. They're used to being bigger, faster, and stronger than everyone else. So they tried to dribble their way out of it instead of keeping their heads up and passing. Chalk it up as a learning experience and a win.
Now if they play the same way against pressure the next time without improving, then I'll get worried.
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This is the first time I really liked Wojo. I think Al McGuire along with any other great coaches believe you should be teaching players life lessons. They come to you as teenagers and should leave as men.
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And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be. Whether one of these men goes on to the presidency or a life of crime has no bearing on Wojo as a basketball coach. That is measured in the columns of wins and losses.
This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
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I think this sort of thing is incredibly stupid. I'm glad the won the game, but there are some major leaps in logic to say that this is the reason they won. I can't say it isn't, but there is no way to say it was bc they lost some mesh tank-tops for a few days.
Is it possible that they simply trended toward the mean of how they will shoot this year after 3 bad shooting games?
This all seems like it was pulled directly out of some terrible high school football movie.
I hope they continue playing well and win today, but regardless of the outcome I'm not going to check to see what color their shoot-around clothing was today.
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I don't understand how anyone can think Wojo's motivational tactics didn't work. After three miserable games -- culminating in the debacle against Iowa when MU appeared to be incompetent in every phase of the game -- they come back with poise and execution against a quality opponent on national tv. What else could explain their sudden transformation? The vast majority of Scoopers were ready to burn Wojo in effigy until last night. Let's give him the credit when it's obviously due.
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This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
+1
I'm pretty glad I've matured/grown from the person I was at 18.
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+1
I'm pretty glad I've matured/grown from the person I was at 18.
So are your parents (and mine, too).
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
Ridiculous. It sounds like you don't have any coaching experience, because if you did, you would know that the players decide the game. Sure, the plays/strategy do have a minor impact on the outcome, but the "words of wisdom" or "leadership" from the coach means almost nothing.
Wojo can encourage all he wants, some will get it and some won't. A lot of kids will run through a wall with no encouragement at all. Some will never give max effort no matter what is said or done. The players' attitudes reflect their own attitudes, and little else.
These kids have a lot to learn about becoming a man, but they are still kids... Give them a chance to grow before you blame it all on Wojo.
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I don't understand how anyone can think Wojo's motivational tactics didn't work. After three miserable games -- culminating in the debacle against Iowa when MU appeared to be incompetent in every phase of the game -- they come back with poise and execution against a quality opponent on national tv. What else could explain their sudden transformation? The vast majority of Scoopers were ready to burn Wojo in effigy until last night. Let's give him the credit when it's obviously due.
How were they any more competent?
22 turnovers
Horrible against the press
Horrible free throw shooting
Horrible late game clock management
Horrible defense giving up 80 points again
If you consider what you watched 'poise and execution' then I want a pair of whatever rose colored glasses you watched the game through.
Here's the differences -Wojo let Carter run the game at PG and they actually hit some shots.
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How were they any more competent?
22 turnovers
Horrible against the press
Horrible free throw shooting
Horrible late game clock management
Horrible defense giving up 80 points again
Here's the differences -Wojo let Carter run the game at PG and they actually hit some shots.
And you DON'T think that was a direct result of practicing in white t-shirts?
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And you DON'T think that was a direct result of practicing in white t-shirts?
I fixed this for you.
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I fixed this for you.
I was hoping it wasn't necessary.
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How were they any more competent?
Score: MU 81 - LSU[22] 80
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I was hoping it wasn't necessary.
Apparently there are many on this board that believe it was a huge factor. The fact that they feel this way should have everyone questioning the value of their MU education.
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You guys do realize that college teams usually practice in hotel ballrooms with a wadded up tape ball during these Thanksgiving tournaments, right? McLaughlin Park is Uptown.
(http://media.jrn.com/images/b99622163z.1_20151123230346_000_gfvdfra7.1-0.jpg)
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I think teachers are important. And we all have special memories of that teacher who inspired, who taught us more than what was in the text book. One of the things I admired about Al and Buzz is that they were as much (or more) about life lessons as they were about Xs and Os. I think Wojo was teaching an important life lesson to his guys. Good for him. And they listened and maybe learned. Good for them. How someone could be "against" that is beyond me.
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Apparently there are many on this board that believe it was a huge factor. The fact that they feel this way should have everyone questioning the value of their MU education.
I don't think it was HUGE. It was just a tactic to get the kids focused. We played better as measured by my blood pressure last night.
I think most are just disagreeing with you that it was some sort of nefarious move by Wojo as opposed to thinking playing in street clothes saved the season.
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I think teachers are important. And we all have special memories of that teacher who inspired, who taught us more than what was in the text book. One of the things I admired about Al and Buzz is that they were as much (or more) about life lessons as they were about Xs and Os. I think Wojo was teaching an important life lesson to his guys. Good for him. And they listened and maybe learned. Good for them. How someone could be "against" that is beyond me.
I think it severely smells like desperation.
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I think teachers are important. And we all have special memories of that teacher who inspired, who taught us more than what was in the text book. One of the things I admired about Al and Buzz is that they were as much (or more) about life lessons as they were about Xs and Os. I think Wojo was teaching an important life lesson to his guys. Good for him. And they listened and maybe learned. Good for them. How someone could be "against" that is beyond me.
I think some folks may not be against it per se, but rather, they feel that it is a gimmick. And if Wojo has to turn to gimmicks to motivate his team, what does that say about his leadership abilities (as a coach)?
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This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
Yup. 18 year olds have no clue who they are, where they are going, they barely have an idea of where they came from. I moved out of my parents house at 18, didn't speak to them for a long time. A couple of years working two jobs and going to school and you start to get some perspective on the struggle people have to go through in the real world. Also, at 18 your values are based almost entirely on what your parents taught you. I couldn't be further from my 18 year old self on so many political and moral issues that I can't even keep them straight. You may have your basic meat and bones structure formed when you enter college, but you don't become you until you have the ability to choose your own path.
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I don't think it was HUGE. It was just a tactic to get the kids focused. We played better as measured by my blood pressure last night.
I think most are just disagreeing with you that it was some sort of nefarious move by Wojo as opposed to thinking playing in street clothes saved the season.
We discount 'the eye test' yet the 'blood pressure test' suddenly has credibility?
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I think some folks may not be against it per se, but rather, they feel that it is a gimmick. And if Wojo has to turn to gimmicks to motivate his team, what does that say about his leadership abilities (as a coach)?
Thank you.
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I think it worked in the sense that MU did play harder, but there were still far too many brain freezes that reflect poorly on the head coach.
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I think some folks may not be against it per se, but rather, they feel that it is a gimmick. And if Wojo has to turn to gimmicks to motivate his team, what does that say about his leadership abilities (as a coach)?
Buzz's Life Lessons, Boot Camp, Crean's Tackling Dummies, Al's punch you in the face at halftime.
What-ever - i think people are over-analyzing this. These are college coaches - right. The whole thing is theater.
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I think some folks may not be against it per se, but rather, they feel that it is a gimmick.
Ding, ding, ding.
This is exactly how I look at this. I'm not sure I'll take the leap to say that I question his leadership, I just think it is stupid. I'm guessing some players responded, while others collectively rolled their eyes.
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This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
My son currently is home for Thanksgiving in his Freshman year. Some of the changes we already see in him are striking. Moving away from home changes kids. If it doesn't, they're doing it wrong. As a parent, you can only hope that there will be someone there to encourage good change.
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Apparently there are many on this board that believe it was a huge factor. The fact that they feel this way should have everyone questioning the value of their MU education.
May not have been a huge factor but it certainly helped. Nothing wrong with what he did. it is all part of the education that you are questioning.
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May not have been a huge factor but it certainly helped. Nothing wrong with what he did. it is all part of the education that you are questioning.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
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Buzz's Life Lessons, Boot Camp, Crean's Tackling Dummies, Al's punch you in the face at halftime.
What-ever - i think people are over-analyzing this. These are college coaches - right. The whole thing is theater.
Correct. Every motivational technique is a gimmick of some sort. Besides making sure the team is technically prepared (and we have a way to go in that regard) whatever works is the right motivational technique. And (at least for a day) this worked. They played with energy from the tip.
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My son currently is home for Thanksgiving in his Freshman year. Some of the changes we already see in him are striking. Moving away from home changes kids. If it doesn't, they're doing it wrong. As a parent, you can only hope that there will be someone there to encourage good change.
Having four children myself ranging from 19 to 3 currently, I could tell you at an early age that despite anyone's best effort that the second oldest (now 18) was going to have to learn the hard way regardless.
People are far more set in their ways and personalities are developed much, much earlier than most want to admit.
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Not even about the 'earn it' message to me; it's all about breaking habits. Show up to practice, go through the usual motions but with negativity due to losing and added frustration from the coach, it's tough to change the mindset. Having to think through your wardrobe, practice in the Old Gym during the week then in the chilly weather outdoors, and the added travel to Brooklyn - the completely different approach lends itself to a different result.
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Having four children myself ranging from 19 to 3 currently, I could tell you at an early age that despite anyone's best effort that the second oldest (now 18) was going to have to learn the hard way regardless.
People are far more set in their ways and personalities are developed much, much earlier than most want to admit.
Fair enough. Having four children myself, ranging from 18 to 12 currently, I can tell you that some aspects of their personality were clearly set and identifiable before they could speak, and other parts of their personality have developed over the years. The two concepts (i.e., personalities being set early and also developing into adulthood) are not mutually exclusive.
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Having four children myself ranging from 19 to 3 currently, I could tell you at an early age that despite anyone's best effort that the second oldest (now 18) was going to have to learn the hard way regardless.
People are far more set in their ways and personalities are developed much, much earlier than most want to admit.
Or... and this is a wild thought... teenagers don't quite share every change they go through with their parents. It's a fact that the brain doesn't stop developing till the mid 20s
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Fair enough. Having four children myself, ranging from 18 to 12 currently, I can tell you that some aspects of their personality were clearly set and identifiable before they could speak, and other parts of their personality have developed over the years. The two concepts (i.e., personalities being set early and also developing into adulthood) are not mutually exclusive.
My bigger point is that if Wojo is more concerned with teaching life lessons than fundamental basketball he's in the wrong line of work.
Other than our guys hitting some shots that haven't fallen to date, the fundamental basketball aspects of our team were just as sorely lacking last night as they have been in the first 3 games.
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We discount 'the eye test' yet the 'blood pressure test' suddenly has credibility?
I smell a guy who is hoping the Warriors fall flat tonight -- as in Iowa flat -- so he can say, "I told you Wojo is still a dope."
Nobody here said Wojo and the Warriors have "fixed" everything. What we are saying is that, hopefully, it was a good positive step in a long road to respectability. I think what several of us also are saying is it's easy to always look for the negative and it's idiotic to rip into Wojo and Marquette after they finally did enough good things to win a close game against a quality opponent.
Some of the more realistic posters here point to how young this team is and how far it has to go. And then others say, "Screw that. Other teams are winning with freshmen." And then a nationally ranked LSU team shows up with the BEST freshman and a highly touted supporting group ... and they were so good that they lost to the crappy, unprepared Warriors and their horrible, gimmicky coach.
Anyway, I hope the good things are repeatable and the bad things will get less bad with time, repetition and experience.
Now go get your Arizona State jersey on and hope you get the chance to tell us you told us so.
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And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be. Whether one of these men goes on to the presidency or a life of crime has no bearing on Wojo as a basketball coach. That is measured in the columns of wins and losses.
You clearly haven't met a college student before. I don't agree with everything you said above but I understand it. This I don't. I work with college students every day and none of them are close to fully developing who they are. If you don't think students don't find mentors in college and get important life lessons....I don't know what to say.
If you don't develop and grow as a person significantly in college, you wasted your money. You missed out on a vital part of the college experience.
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Or... and this is a wild thought... teenagers don't quite share every change they go through with their parents. It's a fact that the brain doesn't stop developing till the mid 20s
Nor should they, but parents live with far too much guilt regarding who their children choose to become. I'm content with knowing the cold harsh reality that is the world will either make or break this one.
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I don't understand how anyone can think Wojo's motivational tactics didn't work. After three miserable games -- culminating in the debacle against Iowa when MU appeared to be incompetent in every phase of the game -- they come back with poise and execution against a quality opponent on national tv. What else could explain their sudden transformation? The vast majority of Scoopers were ready to burn Wojo in effigy until last night. Let's give him the credit when it's obviously due.
We look bad in a game: "Wojo didn't have them ready, FIRE WOJO! ARGHGHGHGHGHGH!"
We look good in a game: "Wojo had nothing to do with it. We won in spite of him."
Guy can't catch a break. Big win last night. Coach deserves some credit. Does it mean he's turned the corner and is the best coach ever? No. Does it make up for the last three games? No. Is it a good start? Yep
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My bigger point is that if Wojo is more concerned with teaching life lessons than fundamental basketball he's in the wrong line of work.
Other than our guys hitting some shots that haven't fallen to date, the fundamental basketball aspects of our team were just as sorely lacking last night as they have been in the first 3 games.
Again, fair enough. But there is nothing whatsoever to support the need for you to be making your "bigger point." Nobody has suggested that Wojo is more concerned with teaching life lessons than teaching basketball. They're a young team. They're going to play ugly from time to time. If they don't show improvement, we'll all agree to let you be first in line with your pitchfork (seeing as you're already there).
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You clearly haven't met a college student before. I don't agree with everything you said above but I understand it. This I don't. I work with college students every day and none of them are close to fully developing who they are. If you don't think students don't find mentors in college and get important life lessons....I don't know what to say.
If you don't develop and grow as a person significantly in college, you wasted your money. You missed out on a vital part of the college experience.
TAMU, if that's the case he should be paid on par with all the other faculty.
You and I both know that he's paid the money he is to get results and win basketball games.
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I'm glad this win is evidence enough for you that all is well. I don't t feel the same.
I saw a team that looked as if it had never seen full court pressure. I understand the season is early, but how it it possible that a basic strategy for breaking the press hasn't been employed/practiced prior to the season starting? It's not like LSU was the second coming of '40 minutes of hell'. It was very basic pressure.
There were two stoppages in play under 90 seconds. I'm sorry, but anybody on this board would make sure to emphasize the importance of not shooting an open three pointer with a lead and a chance to bleed clock. That's a benchable offense. Either Duane Wilson is the dumbest basketball player to ever don an MU uniform or somebody didn't remind him of the importance of the situation ahead of time. It's really not hard. I have a rule in my company for my managers that if they break it they will be seeking employment elsewhere. I haven't had a single violation. Duane Wilson not having the same fear of taking an early three point attempt with the lead late in a game means it hasn't been stressed enough or at all.
I understand Simmons is an excellent player, but insisting that Luke/Henry guard him in transition for 40 minutes was a horrible decision that led to numerous transition buckets because they couldn't stick with him.
It was a good win last night, but let's not turn it into what it wasn't - a masterfully coached basketball game.
And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be. Whether one of these men goes on to the presidency or a life of crime has no bearing on Wojo as a basketball coach. That is measured in the columns of wins and losses.
You are insufferable.
After the Iowa game you ripped Wojo for his coaching and the players for their effort. Against LSU, the players played their asses off, but are a young team that makes mistakes. Wojo got his players focused and playing harder. He also coached that game well.
But instead of admitting it and being happy they beat a ranked team after getting blown out of the water a few days ago, you harp on the few things they did wrong.
So is Wojo the next John Wooden? I seriously doubt it. But he clearly did a lot of things well in the four days between Iowa and LSU and should be commended for it.
Instead you are just being the Eeyore that you always are.
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I smell a guy who is hoping the Warriors fall flat tonight -- as in Iowa flat -- so he can say, "I told you Wojo is still a dope."
Nobody here said Wojo and the Warriors have "fixed" everything. What we are saying is that, hopefully, it was a good positive step in a long road to respectability. I think what several of us also are saying is it's easy to always look for the negative and it's idiotic to rip into Wojo and Marquette after they finally did enough good things to win a close game against a quality opponent.
Some of the more realistic posters here point to how young this team is and how far it has to go. And then others say, "Screw that. Other teams are winning with freshmen." And then a nationally ranked LSU team shows up with the BEST freshman and a highly touted supporting group ... and they were so good that they lost to the crappy, unprepared Warriors and their horrible, gimmicky coach.
Anyway, I hope the good things are repeatable and the bad things will get less bad with time, repetition and experience.
Now go get your Arizona State jersey on and hope you get the chance to tell us you told us so.
+1000000000
The fact of the matter is this is a young team that will not see the fundamental errors change over night, or probably even in a months time. You just look for growth and less of those fundamental errors as the season goes on. Anybody who does not understand that has never played, coached or knows nothing about the game of basketball. What Wojo did was the same thing that pretty much every college coach in the country does at some point. No it will not correct fundamental errors or make us suddenly become knock down shooters, but it does provide an extra spark that might get you to do a couple more of those small intangible things that help you win close games. Hopefully that carries over for more than a game, and if it does that should tell us something about the leaders on this team and that we will see better things from this team as the year progresses.
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Ding, ding, ding.
This is exactly how I look at this. I'm not sure I'll take the leap to say that I question his leadership, I just think it is stupid. I'm guessing some players responded, while others collectively rolled their eyes.
This is one area where I think having an experienced guy on the team would have helped.
There may indeed have been some eye-rolling. Maybe some players thought (to themselves or aloud) "wtf is this corny a** sh*t?" But if there were a senior member on the team who everyone looked up to/respected who also got behind the white t-shirt idea, then the idea may not seem so corny. As an example, if Bazz tried some similar gimmick, and players saw it as such, I picture if a Trent Lockett type of player got behind the gimmick, others would follow. They wouldn't see it as a gimmick anymore. They would take it seriously.
As an aside, I'm not sure I would agree that it is a gimimick. I mean, I can see why some may believe it is, but I can think of a whole host of other situations where symbolic acts may seem corny to an outsider, but taken seriously by insiders (e.g., the military, religion, fraternities, etc.)
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Like most here, I believe it is too early to really make a decision on Wojo. Let's assume for the sake of argument (humor me, mattyv) that Wojo is a great teacher of fundamental basketball. Sometimes, in order to teach, you have to get the team's attention. Sometimes, in order to get a team's attention, you have to be creative. Perhaps we've seen the beginning of this process. Time will tell.
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TAMU, if that's the case he should be paid on par with all the other faculty.
You and I both know that he's paid the money he is to get results and win basketball games.
That doesn't negate other responsibilities. If he's able to grow character and win that'd be fulfilling every aspect of his job. I'm not saying he should be teaching feels class by any means but just because he's paid to coach a basketball team doesn't mean he doesn't teach them anything. Listen to the "win every day" video he says win every day as students, as individuals, as players etc. part of coaching them to win in those aspects is coaching them up as people.
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My bigger point is that if Wojo is more concerned with teaching life lessons than fundamental basketball he's in the wrong line of work.
Other than our guys hitting some shots that haven't fallen to date, the fundamental basketball aspects of our team were just as sorely lacking last night as they have been in the first 3 games.
If you think teaching life lessons isn't a part of coaching, you know nothing about the business. Talk to any coach, any player, anyone who works around college athletics and they will tell you it is a vital part of the position. There's a reason why players value their relationships with their coaches so much. Teaching basketball fundamentals is the biggest part of coaching, but is not the only part.
Secondly, we were fundamentally better last night. Yes we had too many turnovers, yes we struggled against the press, and yes Duane shot a dumb three. But we also stopped settling for outside three pointers (19 3PA vs. 30 vs. Iowa). Our off the ball movement was MUCH better (personally think this was the key to the game). Our defense was MUCH better. You keep screaming about them scoring 80 points but that was because the pace of the game was very high and the refs called a lot of fouls. We held them to 37% shooting. That's fantastic. We held Ben Simmons to 43% shooting despite the fact that most of his buckets were within 10 feet of the hoop. Simmons had shot 62% on the season going into tonight's game. He got 20 points but we got the best of him. We outrebounded them. We outblocked them. If you don't think our defense wasn't improved, you weren't watching. Or you were watching with an agenda.
Did playing in t-shirts help us win? God if I know. Nobody outside the team knows. But it certainly didn't hurt. Just because you would have rolled your eyes at this tactic and thought it was dumb, doesn't mean that's how the players responded. I use similar tactics with the students I work with and they tend to respond very well. Some roll their eyes but when the rest of the group buys in, they quickly follow suit.
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TAMU, if that's the case he should be paid on par with all the other faculty.
You and I both know that he's paid the money he is to get results and win basketball games.
He is paid to get results. Teaching life lessons is part of that. If you don't understand that, you don't understand coaching college students.
When you watch Rudy you scream at the coach for putting in a walk on don't you?
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MU82-
You have me assessed incorrectly. I'll try a different approach.
How many on this forum over the years have lambasted Steve Lavin? Quite a few.
How can the same posters guilty of tearing down the success of a coach with an actual track record of success have the cognitive dissonance to then ignore the same issues when it concerns Wojo?
I think Wojo and Lavin are both two coaches who thus far have been excellent recruiters who can't effectively coach X's and O's.
I think he's a dud. Have from the first day he was hired. Should I let what I consider a bad aspect of MU basketball cause me to stop liking MU? Is this forum a place for fawning adulation only?
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I recommend we scoopers strip mattyv of his username and make him earn it by offering the same thorough, honest and semi-supportive analysis as is provided by the JS reporter of the same name. From now on, we can call him "Boxer Shorts."
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He is paid to get results. Teaching life lessons is part of that. If you don't understand that, you don't understand coaching college students.
When you watch Rudy you scream at the coach for putting in a walk on don't you?
No, when I watch Rudy I think the whole hand in the jersey thing is cheesy, in much the same way I think that making young men "earn" some mesh shorts is cheesy.
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MU82-
You have me assessed incorrectly. I'll try a different approach.
How many on this forum over the years have lambasted Steve Lavin? Quite a few.
How can the same posters guilty of tearing down the success of a coach with an actual track record of success have the cognitive dissonance to then ignore the same issues when it concerns Wojo?
I think Wojo and Lavin are both two coaches who thus far have been excellent recruiters who can't effectively coach X's and O's.
I think he's a dud. Have from the first day he was hired. Should I let what I consider a bad aspect of MU basketball cause me to stop liking MU? Is this forum a place for fawning adulation only?
Absolutely not.
But when you criticize a coach after a bad loss, and then say "well, he had nothing to do with it" after a very good win, it makes you look like you are looking for data points to prove your initial feelings about Wojo more than anything.
Admitting that he did well preparing his team to play LSU after the Iowa debacle doesn't mean that your overall position is proven wrong. That will take time - and you may be right.
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I think some folks may not be against it per se, but rather, they feel that it is a gimmick. And if Wojo has to turn to gimmicks to motivate his team, what does that say about his leadership abilities (as a coach)?
Like karate and ATVs.
Every motivational speech is a gimmick. Every game ball is a gimmick. Every incentive they give you at work is a gimmick (some of those have become "standard" like an annual bonus). So is your spouse/SO looking nice for a special night out. These all work (to some extent or another). It brings out or enhances a different aspect of our personalities that otherwise would go through our normal lives.
So, if Wojo wants them to dress up as gorillas to emphasize rebounding, so be it. It may not work for everyone, but it'll work for someone.
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MU82-
You have me assessed incorrectly. I'll try a different approach.
How many on this forum over the years have lambasted Steve Lavin? Quite a few.
How can the same posters guilty of tearing down the success of a coach with an actual track record of success have the cognitive dissonance to then ignore the same issues when it concerns Wojo?
I think Wojo and Lavin are both two coaches who thus far have been excellent recruiters who can't effectively coach X's and O's.
I think he's a dud. Have from the first day he was hired. Should I let what I consider a bad aspect of MU basketball cause me to stop liking MU? Is this forum a place for fawning adulation only?
I've highlighted a key point for you to consider. Lavin's first HC job was nearly 20 years ago. Wojo started last year. Just like young players are going to play ugly sometimes, young coaches are going to coach ugly. It's a learned skill. Hopefully Wojo will learn it. If not, Marquette will move on. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and may even be proved correct. It's just that I tend to think it's prematurely formed. I guess that's not surprising...some people are pretty set in their ways, and their opinions are formed much, much earlier than most want to admit.
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No, when I watch Rudy I think the whole hand in the jersey thing is cheesy, in much the same way I think that making young men "earn" some mesh shorts is cheesy.
That's you. Not the players. All it takes is one respected leader on the team to buy in to get the whole team to buy in. Just like Bagpiper said. I know when I do something like this with my students I take the leaders aside and tell them what I"m going to do and why and tell them I need them to buy into it. Works like a charm
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That's you. Not the players. All it takes is one respected leader on the team to buy in to get the whole team to buy in. Just like Bagpiper said. I know when I do something like this with my students I take the leaders aside and tell them what I"m going to do and why and tell them I need them to buy into it. Works like a charm
Rudy is probably not the best example.
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Montana-scores-another-touchdown-for-reality?urn=ncaaf,268408
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MU82-
You have me assessed incorrectly. I'll try a different approach.
How many on this forum over the years have lambasted Steve Lavin? Quite a few.
How can the same posters guilty of tearing down the success of a coach with an actual track record of success have the cognitive dissonance to then ignore the same issues when it concerns Wojo?
I think Wojo and Lavin are both two coaches who thus far have been excellent recruiters who can't effectively coach X's and O's.
This one's easy. Lavin's been a head coach for what? 20 years. Wojo's in his second year. We readily admit he struggles but believe he can get better. Lavin proved over 20 years that he couldn't. Also, we criticized Lavin last year because he had a roster chock full of upperclassmen. Should have been his best season ever at St. John's. We recognize that we are in year two of rebuild.
Come on Matty, you knew this before you posted it.
I think he's a dud. Have from the first day he was hired. Should I let what I consider a bad aspect of MU basketball cause me to stop liking MU? Is this forum a place for fawning adulation only?
That's fine you think he's a dud. He very well might be. But you are approaching Ners territory when you criticize even when someone did well. We are a long way from proving one way or another if Wojo is a dud. What level does he have to get to for you to say he's not a dud? For me, we'd have to miss the postseason this year and next year for me to say he's a dud.
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Like karate and ATVs.
Every motivational speech is a gimmick. Every game ball is a gimmick. Every incentive they give you at work is a gimmick (some of those have become "standard" like an annual bonus). So is your spouse/SO looking nice for a special night out. These all work (to some extent or another). It brings out or enhances a different aspect of our personalities that otherwise would go through our normal lives.
So, if Wojo wants them to dress up as gorillas to emphasize rebounding, so be it. It may not work for everyone, but it'll work for someone.
How meta of you.
I'm glad they won, and if this is what got them there fine, but I believe this had more to do with execution on the court than any of this stuff. Just as I tend not to buy into the locker room camaraderie, distractions, etc.
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And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be. Whether one of these men goes on to the presidency or a life of crime has no bearing on Wojo as a basketball coach. That is measured in the columns of wins and losses.
This is the type of comment that makes it incredibly difficult to put much credence into anything else you have to say. While it may be true for some individuals, most people are nowhere near a finished product at that age and will still evolve considerably as a person.
While the coach's job is ultimately to win games there are countless stories of coaches that have had positive impacts on players' lives long after their playing days were over. As others have said, winning games and impacting someone's life in a positive manner don't need to be mutually exclusive.
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And in regards to the life lessons comment, these aren't little kids. At this stage in life people are pretty much who they are going to be.
So you seriously think that 18-22 year olds are "pretty much who they are going to be?"
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Incredibly impressed with the passion for MU hoops expressed here, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with various opinions but let's not forget we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's to win. Personally I'm neutral on Wojo. He's proven to be a great recruiter but that will only last if he wins. His grace period will likely expire at the end of next year and if he doesn't win, we won't get the players, it's as simple as that!
Look I'm thrilled we won last night but let's be honest, that game could of gone either way. It's never a good thing to have led the entire game only to hand your opponent their first lead of the game with 20 seconds to go. This practice jersey nonsense, whether it worked or not, is just noise. What we should all be reasonably happy about is that last night this team demonstrated that they are capable of playing with anyone, and that would still be true even if LSU knocked down that last second 3 and we lost a heartbreaker. Again very happy we won, but let's not get carried away. Just looking at the number of turnovers, our inability to handle the press, and numerous ill advised shots early in possessions, we still have a lot of work to do but I'm cautiously optimistic we'll be a better team when conf. play begins. Now lets take down the Sun Devils!
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
I didn't read the rest of the thread, so I apologize if this has been said already, but Wojo openly admitted the coaching staff hadn't done it's jobs. They joined the team in the white t shirts.
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This one's easy. Lavin's been a head coach for what? 20 years. Wojo's in his second year. We readily admit he struggles but believe he can get better. Lavin proved over 20 years that he couldn't. Also, we criticized Lavin last year because he had a roster chock full of upperclassmen. Should have been his best season ever at St. John's. We recognize that we are in year two of rebuild.
Come on Matty, you knew this before you posted it.
That's fine you think he's a dud. He very well might be. But you are approaching Ners territory when you criticize even when someone did well. We are a long way from proving one way or another if Wojo is a dud. What level does he have to get to for you to say he's not a dud? For me, we'd have to miss the postseason this year and next year for me to say he's a dud.
TAMU
I'll take the logic a step further. Many on this board including myself feel that while Marquette may not be the cream of the crop as far as NCAA basketball coaching jobs are concerned, it certainly is an attractive job considering the tradition, history, recent success, and commitment to the program that's given.
Shouldn't a high end basketball head coaching job like Marquette allow them the luxury of not having to hire a coach who needs on the job training? We should be dealing with known quantities.
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This thread has become unreadable....
Lots of people in this thread have clearly never been involved in team sports and know what motivation is.
Lots of people in this thread that want everyone to have a gold medal and not be embarrassed by their bad play.
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TAMU
I'll take the logic a step further. Many on this board including myself feel that while Marquette may not be the cream of the crop as far as NCAA basketball coaching jobs are concerned, it certainly is an attractive job considering the tradition, history, recent success, and commitment to the program that's given.
Shouldn't a high end basketball head coaching job like Marquette allow them the luxury of not having to hire a coach who needs on the job training? We should be dealing with known quantities.
We could have hired Howland or Counzo or something like that... So clearly we COULD hire those people if we wanted. But Marquette, the university you mention, decided not to, so it had nothing to do with MU as a program, but MU as the people who run the athletic department.
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
Now I understand.
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
And his motivations worked and they won...
If you, while in this forum want to convince yourself that motivational tactics don't work in team sports or in the big business that is college basketball so that you can convince yourself that you're right, then that's fine also.
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
Not gonna lie I wouldn't trust you to coach. I feel like your program would run rampant with all sorts of the issues we had in 2011 with young girls and your excuse would be "it's not my job to teach these kids about character just to win"
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
Of course in the "real world" productivity matters. Of course for Marquette basketball, productivity is the only thing that matters. But as someone who has been a personnel manager for 20+ years, I know that even the most productive employees need counseling, advice, understanding, etc. from time to time. That's exactly the role a coach plays.
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How were they any more competent?
22 turnovers
Horrible against the press
Horrible free throw shooting
Horrible late game clock management
Horrible defense giving up 80 points again
If you consider what you watched 'poise and execution' then I want a pair of whatever rose colored glasses you watched the game through.
Here's the differences -Wojo let Carter run the game at PG and they actually hit some shots.
Defense was statistically very good last night. It was an 82 possession game, so we only gave up 0.98 Points per possesion
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First "block" of the season. mattyV's logic makes me ashamed that he is a fellow mu alumni. Maybe the holiday season will take some negativity out of his life. Definitely reaching Ners territory.
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They were more competent.
They shot 52% from the floor
Didn't settle for 3 point shots early in the clock other then a few exceptions.
They had 22 assists
LSU was held to under 40% shooting
MU out rebounded them
MU took 19 threes in the game instead of 19 threes in the first half....and made 7 of them
ps Wojo using another "gimmick" of not starting JJ and Duane "lit a fire" under them
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/353120741.html
Obviously they need to take care of the ball better and do a better job at the free throw line but anybody who didn't see a big step up in effort and execution in the game either didn't want to see it or is blind.
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Now I understand.
Thanks for the compliment.
Very few people have the ability to affect the bottom line of a company while playing an integral role in being the back stop in regards to compliance and regulations as an f&i manager. If I can take a 200 car a month store and increase the dollar per car average in the f&i office 1000/unit that's a 2.4 million gross profit increase annually while implementing processes that insulate dealers from violations it's a hugely important service.
Scoff if you will, but considering 35-40% of state sales tax collected across the country comes directly from the purchases of vehicles, it's safe to say that dealer principles and their employees are the biggest contributors to the state programs that state sales taxes fund.
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Defense was statistically very good last night. It was an 82 possession game, so we only gave up 0.98 Points per possesion
I wonder how many teams turn the ball over that much and still hold a team under 1.0 ppp and an EFG somewhere in the mid 40s.
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Thanks for the compliment.
Very few people have the ability to affect the bottom line of a company while playing an integral role in being the back stop in regards to compliance and regulations as an f&i manager. If I can take a 200 car a month store and increase the dollar per car average in the f&i office 1000/unit that's a 2.4 million gross profit increase annually while implementing processes that insulate dealers from violations it's a hugely important service.
Scoff if you will, but considering 35-40% of state sales tax collected across the country comes directly from the purchases of vehicles, it's safe to say that dealer principles and their employees are the biggest contributors to the state programs that state sales taxes fund.
Well hell. No wonder you know so much about coaching college basketball!!! Why didn't you just say this sooner???
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Thanks for the compliment.
Very few people have the ability to affect the bottom line of a company while playing an integral role in being the back stop in regards to compliance and regulations as an f&i manager. If I can take a 200 car a month store and increase the dollar per car average in the f&i office 1000/unit that's a 2.4 million gross profit increase annually while implementing processes that insulate dealers from violations it's a hugely important service.
Scoff if you will, but considering 35-40% of state sales tax collected across the country comes directly from the purchases of vehicles, it's safe to say that dealer principles and their employees are the biggest contributors to the state programs that state sales taxes fund.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1FefpckwysKUl93Rm-KDOjNgnZLnbi8fS0p9Gg6-21DyT6HTsTA)
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HOLY SH!T!!! Wojo should be fired! They are wearing the white T-shirts again today! (twitter and instagram confirmed)
FIRE WOJO! WHITE T-SHIRTS!
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Well hell. No wonder you know so much about coaching college basketball!!! Why didn't you just say this sooner???
The university deserves better Sultan. At least we won't have to worry about Wojo using this job as a stepping stone, that is unless returning as an assistant coach to Duke is considered an improvement.
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What's even better is that the Marquette Basketball is using a PlainwhiteT's hashtag and are also tagging the band the Plain white T's in their instagram and twitter posts... Maybe the team and kids are into this and are rallying around it!?
We should do this all season and have a Plain White T night for one of our home games. I'm not even kidding...
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The university deserves better Sultan. At least we won't have to worry about Wojo using this job as a stepping stone, that is unless returning as an assistant coach to Duke is considered an improvement.
You may be right.
However he did a very good job after Iowa, up to and including last night.
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If people on this forum want to pretend that life lessons matter in the big business that is college basketball so they can convince themselves that they're not the monsters they really are that's fine.
MU basketball is a brand that brings recognition and most importantly revenue into the university. It's not dissimilar to the real world. In the real world productivity is the only thing that matters. As a consultant that specializes in overhauling F&I departments for automotive dealer principles I wouldn't be effective if I didn't separate the difference between the quality of a person from the quality of an employee. I've fired many better 'people' for better 'producers' and have never batted an eye.
This is high level, high revenue business. Nothing more. Wojo is here to win.
HAVe a nice Day!
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Don't have time to read this whole thread at work.....how did this go from "young team, need to improve, wojo needs to improve" to "Wojo sucks, we deserve better"?
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A: Matt Velazquez - There were times in those first three games where they definitely didn't listen to Wojo, as you've pointed out. I think he has a firmer grasp on everyone's attention now. All of the players I talked to understood the gravity of him taking away their gear, moving practice to the old gym and upping the intensity in practice. It wasn't just a gimmick. Are there still areas where they can improve? Sure, just look at Duane Wilson's ill-advised late three. But overall, the response and effort have been better. We'll see if it keeps up.
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"White t-shirts" is definitely ending up the next meme tournament.
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Apparently some folks have a hard time with opinions that are different than their's and they resort to personal attacks. Amazingly none of our opinions really matter. Someone missed that memo.
Let's stick to the facts, we won! Was it aways pretty? No. Is their alot of work to do, yes. Did we improve? Yes.
Let's take the win and be appreciative of the progress. This glass is half full or half empty depending on your perspective. I prefer to look at it as half full. It is one of those "life experiences" I learned after college. For me it works. You may look at it as you wish.
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My bigger point is that if Wojo is more concerned with teaching life lessons than fundamental basketball he's in the wrong line of work.
Other than our guys hitting some shots that haven't fallen to date, the fundamental basketball aspects of our team were just as sorely lacking last night as they have been in the first 3 games.
If you believe this, then you have clearly not paid attention to the legacy of Al McGuire. Or John Wooden. Or Dean Smith. The list goes on. I frankly shudder at the thought of coaches abandoning teaching young men life lessons so they can instead focus on what it takes to set a good pick.
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If you believe this, then you have clearly not paid attention to the legacy of Al McGuire. Or John Wooden. Or Dean Smith. The list goes on. I frankly shudder at the thought of coaches abandoning teaching young men life lessons so they can instead focus on what it takes to set a good pick.
...the last of whom coached in 1997. The importance of winning and losing, based on the dollars at stake is much different. That doesn't mean that coaches aren't trying to help players grow, but let's pump the brakes a little.
Life lessons are great, but this was nothing more than motivational technique to get them to focus. I contend that it was cheesy and stupid, others seem to feel the other way, but I'm not sure that we should extrapolate this to anything more.
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...the last of whom coached in 1997. The importance of winning and losing, based on the dollars at stake is much different. That doesn't mean that coaches aren't trying to help players grow, but let's pump the brakes a little.
Life lessons are great, but this was nothing more than motivational technique to get them to focus. I contend that it was cheesy and stupid, others seem to feel the other way, but I'm not sure that we should extrapolate this to anything more.
There is a quid pro quo in college sports. We don't pay these kids with cash. The deal is you come to our school and help fill our arenas and we will educate you. Coaches go to these kids' mothers and promise that they will help them become men. If we are not going to perform that function than we should just do away with college sports and just have minor leagues. I know that is corny, old-fashioned wishful thinking but I like to think that at Marquette we pay more than lip service to that ideal.
Now you can make a legitimate argument around whether or not taking away a practice uniform somehow helps to make men, but I don't think that piece of our commitment should be pooh-poohed as unimportant as long as we're winning games.
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This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
right on bags-cheezus, most college students are still wet behind the ears and don't know schmit till they've been fired a couple times, pulled over for dui, divorced, have a kid or two, etc etc
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If you believe this, then you have clearly not paid attention to the legacy of Al McGuire. Or John Wooden. Or Dean Smith. The list goes on. I frankly shudder at the thought of coaches abandoning teaching young men life lessons so they can instead focus on what it takes to set a good pick.
It's not that I don't want life lessons being taught, I just think it's a secondary responsibility at this level. These are not 8th graders in which 99% of them will never play D1 basketball. College basketball is either the first or second largest revenue source for many universities. It is a product that allows other endeavors to be paid for, including the majority of other sports that lose money for the same university.
We're speculating that Al McGuire, John Wooden, Vince Lombardi or any other legendary coach would have the same type of success today. Like it or not, our times and culture have changed for better or worse.
The very concept of Henry Ellenson being recruited to MU is in and of itself a testament to what I'm trying to say. If being a student athlete is paramount than recruiting a player who's playing in college solely to comply with the NBA's requirements is in direct opposition to what a student athlete embodies. Face it, we're all hypocrites. Many hate Kentucky yet would love it were Wojo to nail down their recruiting class next year.
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There is a quid pro quo in college sports. We don't pay these kids with cash. The deal is you come to our school and help fill our arenas and we will educate you. Coaches go to these kids' mothers and promise that they will help them become men. If we are not going to perform that function than we should just do away with college sports and just have minor leagues. I know that is corny, old-fashioned wishful thinking but I like to think that at Marquette we pay more than lip service to that ideal.
Now you can make a legitimate argument around whether or not taking away a practice uniform somehow helps to make men, but I don't think that piece of our commitment should be pooh-poohed as unimportant as long as we're winning games.
I agree with you, which is why I think the little gimmick of pulling the T-shirts (which I wouldn't consider a life lesson) and teaching kids the importance of respecting women are two different things. I also do believe that the game has changed, and that references to what coaches were doing in the 80s isn't really relevant to how the game is now.
Well the Buzz regime certainly had the lip service part of that down, as for the teachings and lessons learned, that could be argued differently.
I think the stunt of pulling the practice gear was dumb and is likely being inflated to something more than what it was. It may have helped, it might have meant nothing, but I tend to believe hitting more shots and executing better was unrelated to what material their practice shirts were made out of.
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First "block" of the season. mattyV's logic makes me ashamed that he is a fellow mu alumni. Maybe the holiday season will take some negativity out of his life. Definitely reaching Ners territory.
Less than 36hrs after onepost identified the gap it's been fixed. Impressive.
I'm disappointed in Scoop this season. Banter is down, don't have a clear board goat established, and you've all dropped the ball on LSU's best alumna.
Because why wouldn't I post 3 pictures of Lindsey Pelas......
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All the players should have been given a "safe space" after the Iowa game. How dare Wojo engage in "shaming" the team....Lucky the person that sits next to you at Thanksgiving dinner Matty.
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All the players should have been given a "safe space" after the Iowa game. How dare Wojo engage in "shaming" the team....Lucky the person that sits next to you at Thanksgiving dinner Matty.
You PC, bro?
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Apparently there are many on this board that believe it was a huge factor. The fact that they feel this way should have everyone questioning the value of their MU education.
Huge factor? I don't know. I just know coaches, like bosses, need to motivate their teams and usually coaches know more about their players and what presses their buttons than fans do.
Just my opinion.
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Huge factor? I don't know. I just know coaches, like bosses, need to motivate their teams and usually coaches know more about their players and what presses their buttons than fans do.
Just my opinion.
and the opinion of anyone who has had any bit of success in the world.
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and the opinion of anyone who has had any bit of success in the world.
Plus 1
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My favorite of all time was Abe Lemons when he was coaching at Oklahoma City. They were playing in the NIT which was a big deal at the time. They were trailing at halftime and he wasn't happy with the team's effort. He kept his team out on the floor during the halftime and they scrimmaged, shirts vs skins.
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Thanks for the compliment.
Very few people have the ability to affect the bottom line of a company while playing an integral role in being the back stop in regards to compliance and regulations as an f&i manager. If I can take a 200 car a month store and increase the dollar per car average in the f&i office 1000/unit that's a 2.4 million gross profit increase annually while implementing processes that insulate dealers from violations it's a hugely important service.
Scoff if you will, but considering 35-40% of state sales tax collected across the country comes directly from the purchases of vehicles, it's safe to say that dealer principles and their employees are the biggest contributors to the state programs that state sales taxes fund.
So when you enter a dealer, I hope you grade yourself at the 1000/unit increase immediately regardless of the shape you found it in. That's the bar you are setting for Wojo. No misfires, no issues, instant training of new staff who are perfect. Better be instantaneous improvement overnight. And even if there was an issue, you should get no credit for a turnaround because it wasn't right immediately at the start of your tenure. So if you were only averaging 500/unit and then went to 1500/unit, you're still not getting the job done because you still may have some issues in your process. Good grief...
And no, the customer is the biggest contributor of sales tax. You've got little to do with it.
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So when you enter a dealer, I hope you grade yourself at the 1000/unit increase immediately regardless of the shape you found it in. That's the bar you are setting for Wojo. No misfires, no issues, instant training of new staff who are perfect. Better be instantaneous improvement overnight. And even if there was an issue, you should get no credit for a turnaround because it wasn't right immediately at the start of your tenure. So if you were only averaging 500/unit and then went to 1500/unit, you're still not getting the job done because you still may have some issues in your process. Good grief...
And no, the customer is the biggest contributor of sales tax. You've got little to do with it.
I feel a spinoff thread...explain why coaching is so easy through the lenses of our respective non-coaching jobs.
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This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Most people change tremendously during college. Maybe you arrived at MU wearing a sweater vest and ready for the professional world but for the majority of people they're still learning and developing. I'm not saying that Wojo is accountable to do the life lessons things that Buzz did about a bottle with sand and rocks etc. But he is still supposed to impart his wisdom and teach when he can.
Agree
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It was and still is a poor decision in my opinion. Attitude reflects leadership. If you seriously cannot get your team (Ellenson, Ellenson, Cheatham, Carter, Anim, Heldt, and Cohen were all Wojo recruits) to give you a solid effort unless you resort to essentially a public shaming what does that say?
THE PLAYERS' EFFORT THE FIRST THREE GAMES OF THE SEASON WAS BETTER THAN THE COACHING FROM THE STAFF.
I do think there is a time and place for what transpired, I just think it should be used as a last stand. Wojo essentially gambled with a move that either galvanizes a team or loses them completely three games into a season. His job is to win basketball games and teach basketball, not life lessons.
Playing Carter for the majority of the game at PG was a much bigger factor in the outcome of this game.
Again, coaches, bosses, parents, etc....we all use different tactics to motivate our kids, our players, our employees. Different strokes for different folks. It's up to a good manager to understand what pushes them. Some need a bit of humility, some may need a spoon full of sugar, others a public undressing....I've seen it where a boss came in and fired someone in front of everyone. Let me tell you, that public shaming got everyone's attention REAL quick.
Whether they are life lessons or not, I don't think that's the point. Was taking away pratice gear a life lesson? Probably not, but one would hope that each and every day they are learning little life lessons that add up. Hard work pays off, get to meetings on time, support your teammates, take responsibility, etc, etc, etc.
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mattyv making a run at board goat right after I critique us for not having one!!
But seriously, how does anyone have a problem with Wojo's move here? It was humbling, it was embarrassing, and most importantly, it was collective. Everyone took part, coaches included. It wasn't an us vs. them job, but the coaches took accountability for coming up vastly short the first 3 games as well. I loved it, personally - not because it looks good on TV or is a story, but because it has WORKED so far.
Listen, to guys like us the lack of warmup jerseys and playing on playground hardtops would be whatever and/or exciting playing school yard ball while in NYC. But to kids who have had gear thrown at them their whole lives, who are, dare I say, superficial enough to be offended when things are taken away and the luxury of indoor practicing is taken away, this sent a massive message. Wojo won't tolerate any bullcrap and I love that, because I know first hand that Buzz would let things slide and then resentment settles in. Guys all tick in different ways, and Wojo did something to spur a change in what was clearly not working. He tweaked the starting lineup, moved to a more natural PG to start, sat a team captain who is going through as many growing pains as anyone, and showed these guys he won't stand for mediocrity, himself included. We didn't play flawlessly by any means in Brooklyn, but my God we showed a pulse and had some fire for the first time in over a year and half's time. And that to me is very exciting and encouraging going forward.
Our entire team is essentially freshmen and sophomores (let's call Luke a sophomore). We're gonna have our rough nights and have our nights where we show just how special this group can be going forward. We've gotten both so far and I am very encouraged about the direction of this season after just 2 days.
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TAMU
I'll take the logic a step further. Many on this board including myself feel that while Marquette may not be the cream of the crop as far as NCAA basketball coaching jobs are concerned, it certainly is an attractive job considering the tradition, history, recent success, and commitment to the program that's given.
Shouldn't a high end basketball head coaching job like Marquette allow them the luxury of not having to hire a coach who needs on the job training? We should be dealing with known quantities.
Rather a guy who needs on the job training with a high ceiling than a guy who doesn't with a low ceiling. Who exactly did you want us to hire? We missed on Shaka. That sucked. But he wasn't coming. We could have had Martin or Howland anytime we wanted them. Martin's resume was solid but hardly extraordinary. Howland didn't pass the sniff test at all. Was never an option for Marquette. I don't remember anyone else who was available who would have been a better option.
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been fired a couple times, pulled over for dui, divorced, have a kid or two, etc etc
This was your first few years out of dental school, right??
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Motivation is stupid and doesn't work... Should have let them have all the "entitlements". I hate winning.
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This was your first few years out of dental school, right??
LOL-years? first couple of weeks...made me the man i am today-heyna? get them out of the way right off the bat. actually been blessed with 31 years of wedded bliss(to the same woman) and 30 years of live and learn A LOT in dentistry(16 with my daddy)that's why they call it a practice-heyna?, but yes, there were a few pot-holes in the road before the seashells and balloons
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I wonder if at some level the success in Italy made the young guys believe they were good. A couple of humbling losses combined with a pissed off coach made them realize they had to focus. The last two games were certainly focused. Yes, there are still going to be mental errors. It is a young team. But there won't be a lack of effort.
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Stoopid Wojo.
Another game won despite the inferior coach just because we shot well. (Oh wait ... only 42%, including 21% from 3.)
Um ... another game won even though we threw the ball all over the arena again. (Oh wait ... only 11 turnovers in 45 minutes.)
Um ... another game won despite our inept defense taught by our inept coach. (Oh wait ... ASU shot only 38% and we had 6 blocks and 6 steals despite our guys getting called for fouls every time they breathed on an ASU player.)
Must be a sad time for mattyv. Cant say "I told you so" today. We will have more losses, though, so he'll be back.