MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: mu03eng on October 27, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
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Clearly I'm in desperate need of the season to start because I'm about to go down a deep rabbit hole. I happened to go on the official Marquette basketball app and take a look at the roster. Listed were the following players and their positions:
Sacar=G/F
Wally=G
Haanif=G
Hank=F
JjJ=G
So if G=1,2 and F=3,4.....no Wally or JjJ at the 3? Or if G=1,2,3 and F=4 (Luke and Matt are listed as C) then only Sacar and Hank are playing the 4? Are we running big line-ups?
Generally I think there will be a lot of fluidity to the roster, but the fact they bothered to make Sacar a G/F got the crazy wheels rolling.
Does this tell us anything? Is this like assuming Stonehenge means something? How do they size straight jackets?
Thoughts?
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Clearly I'm in desperate need of the season to start because I'm about to go down a deep rabbit hole. I happened to go on the official Marquette basketball app and take a look at the roster. Listed were the following players and their positions:
Sacar=G/F
Wally=G
Haanif=G
Hank=F
JjJ=G
So if G=1,2 and F=3,4.....no Wally or JjJ at the 3? Or if G=1,2,3 and F=4 (Luke and Matt are listed as C) then only Sacar and Hank are playing the 4? Are we running big line-ups?
Generally I think there will be a lot of fluidity to the roster, but the fact they bothered to make Sacar a G/F got the crazy wheels rolling.
Does this tell us anything? Is this like assuming Stonehenge means something? How do they size straight jackets?
Thoughts?
I assume this doesn't tell us anything and that if Wojo wants to play a lineup with Wally at the 4, for example, he will do just that.
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It tell us that Wojo views G as 1,2,3 and F as 4,5 and C as 5. Sacar is the backup 4.
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Wonder why no heights are listed?
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So what is the ideal line-up if Hank is out and Luke is in? Who plays the 4? Who plays the 3?
Who gets more minutes, Sacar or Wally?
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I think I am tired of people thinking that coaches slot players into the traditional 1-5 positions. It is about filling roles and exploiting match-ups. Sure each player has a position on the floor in the offense, but everyone will know where everyone needs to be. So while you won't see Duane or JJJ playing the post, my guess is that if Wojo thinks MU can go small to its advantage, Henry can play the post and know exactly where he needs to be.
So don't worry too much about how positions are labelled. It doesn't really matter.
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So what is the ideal line-up if Hank is out and Luke is in? Who plays the 4? Who plays the 3?
Who gets more minutes, Sacar or Wally?
Who understands their role better and plays better defense? One of the weaknesses of this team is that there is no one in the 6'7 to 6'9 range. When Henry sits, MU will have little choice but to play small. Who will best be able to defend the opposing 4? Does Sandy's 25 extra pounds earn him time at the 4? Or is that when Wojo throws some traps and some zone out there? One of the many questions.
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Who understands their role better and plays better defense? One of the weaknesses of this team is that there is no one in the 6'7 to 6'9 range. When Henry sits, MU will have little choice but to play small. Who will best be able to defend the opposing 4? Does Sandy's 25 extra pounds earn him time at the 4? Or is that when Wojo throws some traps and some zone out there? One of the many questions.
Which is why I have been saying, even if HE comes back next year, there is a role for a guy like Willis on this team.
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I think I am tired of people thinking that coaches slot players into the traditional 1-5 positions. It is about filling roles and exploiting match-ups. Sure each player has a position on the floor in the offense, but everyone will know where everyone needs to be. So while you won't see Duane or JJJ playing the post, my guess is that if Wojo thinks MU can go small to its advantage, Henry can play the post and know exactly where he needs to be.
So don't worry too much about how positions are labelled. It doesn't really matter.
Exactly. Basketball has become a game where there are basically only 3 positions: point guard, post, wing. And even those are interchangeable at times.
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Exactly. Basketball has become a game where there are basically only 3 positions: point guard, post, wing. And even those are interchangeable at times.
A point, a post and three switchables. Sounds about right.
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I think I am tired of people thinking that coaches slot players into the traditional 1-5 positions.
Fin.
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A point, a post and three switchables. Sounds about right.
Why does that seem so familiar?
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I guess my point was not to slot people into a number position, but more as a frame of reference to what players might play together.
If Hank and Luke both go to the bench, what does that line up look like(and does it ever happen)?
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I guess my point was not to slot people into a number position, but more as a frame of reference to what players might play together.
If Hank and Luke both go to the bench, what does that line up look like(and does it ever happen)?
It will happen occasionally due to fouls and fatigue. IMO, we then see Heldt, probably 3 of the 6'5-6 guys (Wally, Sandy, JJJ, Cheatham, Sacar) and Duane.
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If Hank and Luke both go to the bench, what does that line up look like(and does it ever happen)?
In that scenario, defense will dictate what happens. Offensively, MU will play four out more often than not, as Henry will have license to roam.
Heldt goes in at center, and as you said either Sacar or Wally slide in at the 4 depending on the matchup.
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I just don't see many scenarios in which neither Henry nor Luke will be on the floor. I think you are talking about early season tinkering, blow outs or grabbing 30 seconds of rest before a TV timeout.
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Don't forget that Lazar played the 5 at just 6-foot-6. He was a matchup nightmare for opposing post players who couldn't defend out to the 3-point line. And he was a surprisingly good defender himself, even when giving up several inches (or more) in height.
If you've got a lineup stacked with talent and versatility, that's every coach's dream.
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Don't forget that Lazar played the 5 at just 6-foot-6. He was a matchup nightmare for opposing post players who couldn't defend out to the 3-point line. And he was a surprisingly good defender himself, even when giving up several inches (or more) in height.
If you've got a lineup stacked with talent and versatility, that's every coach's dream.
And MU was quite successful with a front line of Butler and Crowder. But the players have to be willing to put in the effort down low. Lazar, Jimmy, and Jae were true warriors. You can't assume that a 6'5 guy is going to succeed down low.
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If MU has defensive mis-matches you will probably see more zone than man. MU's bigs are not really athletic or quick, team chemistry as you can tell has changed.
Jimmy, Jae, were true Warriors and athletic, the 3 bigs MU have are not. Anim will have to play the 4 at times as there is no one else with bulk. That is why Willis or a
player like him is important the following year. MU right now does not have that athletic big.
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I would never classify Jimmy or Jae as "bigs." Fischer has four or five inches on both of them, and while he isn't as athletic as Jimmy or Jae, I think it a bit unfair to compare him to established NBA players.
And I think Luke is plenty athletic enough to be a major college center.
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Eng, don't you have a baby coming in about 15 minutes? Chilax brother.
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I would never classify Jimmy or Jae as "bigs." Fischer has four or five inches on both of them, and while he isn't as athletic as Jimmy or Jae, I think it a bit unfair to compare him to established NBA players.
And I think Luke is plenty athletic enough to be a major college center.
Never said they were bigs in the true sense, but they played big at the time for MU. MU has really 3 bigs this year, but could you see these players guarding Jae,
or Lazar or Jimmy. What a mis-match.
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I really appreciated Jae more after the Pistons drafted Andre Drummond, I saw how he did against NBA centers, and I realized that Jae, all 6'5 of him, used to stymie Drummond.
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Never said they were bigs in the true sense, but they played big at the time for MU. MU has really 3 bigs this year, but could you see these players guarding Jae,
or Lazar or Jimmy. What a mis-match.
You are asking if Luke, Matt or Henry could guard Lazar, Jae or Jimmy?
Well I haven't seen Henry play defense yet so I have no clue. But Lazar, Jae and Jimmy were all NBA draft picks and Jae was the player of the year in the BE. So many players would have trouble guarding them with much success.
Furthermore, why would you expect your centers to guard wing players?
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I would never classify Jimmy or Jae as "bigs." Fischer has four or five inches on both of them, and while he isn't as athletic as Jimmy or Jae, I think it a bit unfair to compare him to established NBA players.
And I think Luke is plenty athletic enough to be a major college center.
Yup. If people saw Luke on the volleyball court for Germantown they would certainly not be saying he was unathletic. Not as quick as Big East guards or wings? Well, sure. But considering he's a 6'11" big, I wouldn't expect him to be. For his size he is a very athletic guy.
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Eng, don't you have a baby coming in about 15 minutes? Chilax brother.
Two weeks to go....much rather worry* about this than that :)
*not really worried about this either, just like to play the crazed fan/$hit stirrer from time to time.
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Furthermore, why would you expect your centers to guard wing players?
You're Tom Crean and can't recruit a big for $1000 Alex
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Who understands their role better and plays better defense? One of the weaknesses of this team is that there is no one in the 6'7 to 6'9 range. When Henry sits, MU will have little choice but to play small. Who will best be able to defend the opposing 4? Does Sandy's 25 extra pounds earn him time at the 4? Or is that when Wojo throws some traps and some zone out there? One of the many questions.
Good point. John Hammonds always says you are who you can defend. Will Sacar or Sandy be able to defend at '4' when necessary? I guess we will find out.
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Two weeks to go....much rather worry* about this than that :)
*not really worried about this either, just like to play the crazed fan/$hit stirrer from time to time.
If child comes late and is born during the Belmont game, will you name your child Wojo WHEN they win?
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If child comes late and is born during the Belmont game, will you name your child Wojo WHEN they win?
On the list of things I'm going to get buy in from my wife(badger fan, we all have flaws) on the day she is giving birth, this one is like #672 right after me going to bar with buddies to celebrate and right before me sneaking off in a closet with one of the delivery nurses. ;D
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my wife (badger fan, we all have flaws)
Thoughts and prayers.
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No, under Buzz, they were centers.
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No, under Buzz, they were centers.
Hayward was in Buzz's second year due to an incomplete roster, but Jae was only occasionally when Otule and Gardner were either out or injured. I don't recall Jimmy ever playing center.
To say that "they were centers" is an enormous exaggeration.
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Correct. Otule was supposed to be the center and was injury prone. Gardner got hurt. Fulce got hurt. Mbao came and went. Jamil played very well as an undersized 5 with Crowder.
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Jimmy was the power forward, small forward, 2 guard, he guarded there best player at those positions. I am trying to get across the point that the 2 bigs now are not
the type of players Buzz recruited during his stay here, will see which is better. I still see Lopez scoring over MU against Stanford.
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Hayward was in Buzz's second year due to an incomplete roster, but Jae was only occasionally when Otule and Gardner were either out or injured. I don't recall Jimmy ever playing center.
To say that "they were centers" is an enormous exaggeration.
McMurrow counts too right? Wasn't our fault his heart wasn't in it. HEY OH!
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Jimmy was the power forward, small forward, 2 guard, he guarded there best player at those positions. I am trying to get across the point that the 2 bigs now are not
the type of players Buzz recruited during his stay here, will see which is better. I still see Lopez scoring over MU against Stanford.
If you are simply saying that Jimmy Butler is a better basketball player than Luke Fischer, then just say that. Most would agree.
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On the list of things I'm going to get buy in from my wife(badger fan, we all have flaws) on the day she is giving birth, this one is like #672 right after me going to bar with buddies to celebrate and right before me sneaking off in a closet with one of the delivery nurses. ;D
Queue chick with her story about being left home alone with 2 kids under 30 months when I roadtripped to the Sweet 16 with buddies as the guest of Mark Anglavar back in '94.
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If you are simply saying that Jimmy Butler is a better basketball player than Luke Fischer, then just say that. Most would agree.
No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Buzz did not recruit tall white kids at all, MU has 3 of them now. He recruited a different type of athlete then Wojo has
on his team right now. Maybe a better student-athlete for sure now.
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No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Buzz did not recruit tall white kids at all, MU has 3 of them now. He recruited a different type of athlete then Wojo has
on his team right now. Maybe a better student-athlete for sure now.
Luke Fischer and Henry Ellenson are much more athletic than the bigs Buzz recruited. Chris Otule and Davante Gardner? Not to mention Aaron Durley and Yous Mbao.
Oh and Otule and Gardner graduated.
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Yes, Buzz was not able to recruit athletes like Luke and Ellenson, he recruited all stiffs at center, all not rated or 1 star athletes. Buzz gets an F at that position for
sure.
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Eng, don't you have a baby coming in about 15 minutes?
dude...
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Two weeks to go....much rather worry* about this than that :)
*not really worried about this either, just like to play the crazed fan/$hit stirrer from time to time.
I tell you, man, I am going to be SO honored when you name the little guy "MU82."
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Yes, Buzz was not able to recruit athletes like Luke and Ellenson, he recruited all stiffs at center, all not rated or 1 star athletes. Buzz gets an F at that position for
sure.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Buzz actually bring in Luke?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Buzz actually bring in Luke?
Yep
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Do Monterale Clark and McKay count as Buzz bigs?
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It will happen occasionally due to fouls and fatigue. IMO, we then see Heldt, probably 3 of the 6'5-6 guys (Wally, Sandy, JJJ, Cheatham, Sacar) and Duane.
Take your starting PG out of the game to get more height because you're playing your least experienced post player? That doesn't sound sound to me.
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Duane is perfectly capable as a point. If Cheatham is in the game, he can handle, too. Give Heldt a little help up front, and it isn't as if there are a lot of other options, anyway. If Henry and Luke are out and Heldt is in, some combination of 4 of the other 7 will be in the game. I listed everyone except Carter, because I definitely want Duane on the floor if Henry and Luke are out, and IMO, I would go for size at in that instance. But if, for example, it was Duane, JJJ, Wally, and Sandy, you would have the other 4 guys with D-1 experience, as well as size, on the floor with Heldt, and I don't view that as bad.
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Yes, Buzz was not able to recruit athletes like Luke and Ellenson, he recruited all stiffs at center, all not rated or 1 star athletes. Buzz gets an F at that position for
sure.
Davante is the best center by far we had at MU since Robert Jackson, and one of the most under-appreciated players in recent memory. It's a shame his senior season was ruined by opponents sagging into the lane on him. Sickening to watch game after game, I felt so bad for him. Even with that handicap, he still put up monster numbers.
You can't look at a guy like Davante and give any HC that brought him in an F at the position.
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Davante is the best center by far we had at MU since Robert Jackson, and one of the most under-appreciated players in recent memory. It's a shame his senior season was ruined by opponents sagging into the lane on him. Sickening to watch game after game, I felt so bad for him. Even with that handicap, he still put up monster numbers.
You can't look at a guy like Davante and give any HC that brought him in an F at the position.
I see your point, but I wouldn't consider Davante a center. He was really a PF. Yes, he played the 5 quite often, but that still doesn't mean he was a center. If we were to use that logic, we would have to consider Lazar his senior year as a center.
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I see your point, but I wouldn't consider Davante a center. He was really a PF. Yes, he played the 5 quite often, but that still doesn't mean he was a center. If we were to use that logic, we would have to consider Lazar his senior year as a center.
Yet you consider Ellenson a center?
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DG was a post. A force of nature under the basket. Not tall enough or quick enough to dominate athletic bigs, but a force against anyone who wasn't. A one trick pony, but what a trick.
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Yet you consider Ellenson a center?
I'm sorry, where did I consider Ellenson a center?
Edit: I see in Hoopster's post he somewhat lumps Ellenson and Fischer together. I would not consider Ellenson a center at all. Hoopster may be doing so in his post.
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I see your point, but I wouldn't consider Davante a center. He was really a PF. Yes, he played the 5 quite often, but that still doesn't mean he was a center. If we were to use that logic, we would have to consider Lazar his senior year as a center.
DG was a post player. He was by no means a power forward. He played inside and usually guarded their big man. Furthermore when he played at the same time as Otule it was often a disaster because you had two post players on the floor.