MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: keefe on July 30, 2015, 03:47:47 AM
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No mention of pregnant SMU cheerleaders, yet
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--smu-s-larry-brown-facing--lack-of-coach-control--charge-from-ncaa-023341831-ncaab.html
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SMU and Larry Brown are a match made in heaven. $MU likes to cheat and bend the rules, it's in their blood. Larry Brown has been down this path before too. Hiring Danny Manning's father at Kansas to get him there, Vincent Askew's potential transfer involving money, the whole Emmanuel Mudiay and Keith Frazier incidents, among others.
Recruiting violations and postseason bans involving SMU and Larry Brown? Why should anyone be surprised?
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SMU and Larry Brown are a match made in heaven. $MU likes to cheat and bend the rules, it's in their blood. Larry Brown has been down this path before too. Hiring Danny Manning's father at Kansas to get him there, Vincent Askew's potential transfer involving money, the whole Emmanuel Mudiay and Keith Frazier incidents, among others.
Recruiting violations and postseason bans involving SMU and Larry Brown? Why should anyone be surprised?
I definitely wouldn't be surprised. I think Baylor is going to also get dinged at some point as well.
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SMU knew what kind of deal with the devil they were making. Too bad this couldn't have come up sooner. They got a few players I would love to see in Blue and Gold.
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SMU and Larry Brown are a match made in heaven. $MU likes to cheat and bend the rules, it's in their blood. Larry Brown has been down this path before too. Hiring Danny Manning's father at Kansas to get him there, Vincent Askew's potential transfer involving money, the whole Emmanuel Mudiay and Keith Frazier incidents, among others.
Recruiting violations and postseason bans involving SMU and Larry Brown? Why should anyone be surprised?
Why do you think they went hard after Buzz.........?
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Why do you think they went hard after Buzz.........?
Word.
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Why do you think they went hard after Buzz.........?
chicos - when is that bomb going to drop about Buzz's filthy goings on at MU? We're at about the year and a half Mark. How much longer do you think?
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chicos - when is that bomb going to drop about Buzz's filthy goings on at MU? We're at about the year and a half Mark. How much longer do you think?
Buzz is still coaching so you have to wait at least 3 and a half more years.
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chicos - when is that bomb going to drop about Buzz's filthy goings on at MU? We're at about the year and a half Mark. How much longer do you think?
Just making sure the logic train is still connected for everyone.
According to this post,
SMU likes to cheat, knows what deal with the devil they are making.
SMU went hard after Buzz.
SMU ends up with Larry Brown.
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Just making sure the logic train is still connected for everyone.
According to this post,
SMU likes to cheat, knows what deal with the devil they are making.
SMU went hard after Buzz.
SMU ends up with Larry Brown.
Your "logic" is based on conjecture. Let's try some based on fact.
Indiana knowingly and willingly hires basketball coaches who are convicted cheaters.
Indiana had to fire their known cheater when he got caught cheating again.
Indiana (who knowingly, willingly and aggressively seek out and hire coaches who will do ANYTHING to win) then hired Tom Crean.
It's Indiana, it's Indiana. Where the logic train is always on time.
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chicos - when is that bomb going to drop about Buzz's filthy goings on at MU? We're at about the year and a half Mark. How much longer do you think?
Chico had "intelligence" from "insiders" doncha' know. All foam, no beer.
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Be fair, everybody. If Chicos told us, he'd have to kill us.
Paperwork ... police reports ... blood stains ... that would inconvenience everybody!
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I have my doubts the Hillbilly cheats.
We certainly had our problems when the Hillbilly was head coach -- one of which ended up on the front page of the Chicago Tribune. And there appears to have been some serious questions about the character of some of our players.
But the Hillbilly recruited some really great ballplayers who slipped under the radar. The JuCOs, many of whom are now in the NBA, led to some criticism. But I suspect the Hillbilly simply "sold" 'em and made Marquette a place where JuCos could be comfortable.
Remember, when Coach Wojo was hired, one of the points he made was that he would build a program "Marquette would be proud of..." That has many meanings but I suspect one of them was that stories about incidents involving basketball players on Page 1 of the Chicago Tribune would be a thing of the past.
No, I don't think the Hillbilly cheated. At best, he stretched the rules to the breaking point to accommodate his needs.
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From what I know he was just a dick to work for and to be around. I don't think he cheated or anything, just sounds like people in the athletic department didn't like the guy.
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Be fair, everybody. If Chicos told us, he'd have to kill us.
Paperwork ... police reports ... blood stains ... that would inconvenience everybody!
Is he a cop? (and are you black?)
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From what I know he was just a dick to work for and to be around. I don't think he cheated or anything, just sounds like people in the athletic department didn't like the guy.
Respectfully (and I think I speak for Chicos here), there's something big coming out and it's huge and he knows all about it and nobody else does because connections.
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Respectfully (and I think I speak for Chicos here), there's something big coming out and it's huge and he knows all about it and nobody else does because connections.
If true, can't wait.
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If true, can't wait.
Don't hold your breath. Grayson is making fun of Chico.
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Don't hold your breath. Grayson is making fun of Chico.
Thanks I was getting red.
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From what I know he was just a dick to work for and to be around. I don't think he cheated or anything, just sounds like people in the athletic department didn't like the guy.
Sounds kinda like T-Cubed, ai na?
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Sounds kinda like T-Cubed, ai na?
Yeah, but fvck Crean
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest Buzz was ever connected to rule breaking/cheating was the infamous Scott Monarch situation in 2012. He was suspended the first Big East game of the season (UConn, I believe - which I think was the game Cadougan hit a game winning three) for the dreaded lack of institutional control, and Monarch was fired for lying to investigators. All over giving a recruit a t-shirt.
With that being said, there are some individuals who have blatantly cheated over the years - only to receive other coaching opportunities elsewhere. Donnie Tyndall, Kelvin Sampson, Bruce Pearl, Todd Bozeman, Tim Floyd, and even Dave Bliss, received other head coaching opportunities despite rampant lack of institutional control and/or knowledgeable cheating. Heck, wouldn't be surprised to see Mike Rice Jr. receive another shot at coaching somewhere in the next few years.
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Don't forget Steve Fischer and Jerry Tarkanian.
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Don't forget Steve Fischer and Jerry Tarkanian.
How could I forget those two???
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Donnie Tyndall, Kelvin Sampson, Bruce Pearl, Todd Bozeman, Tim Floyd, and even Dave Bliss...cheaters
Rick Pitino is an admitted cheater., too
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He would tell you but to do so would contribute to the softening of America.
Chico's had 20k+ posts. He has proven time and again that he will demagogue a topic into oblivion or moderator lock. He has implied dozens of times that he has sources that told him that Buzz was dirty. He has never once brought forth a single concrete example. Do the math.
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This should come as no surprise, but all coaches cheat, hey?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest Buzz was ever connected to rule breaking/cheating was the infamous Scott Monarch situation in 2012. He was suspended the first Big East game of the season (UConn, I believe - which I think was the game Cadougan hit a game winning three) for the dreaded lack of institutional control, and Monarch was fired for lying to investigators. All over giving a recruit a t-shirt.
With that being said, there are some individuals who have blatantly cheated over the years - only to receive other coaching opportunities elsewhere. Donnie Tyndall, Kelvin Sampson, Bruce Pearl, Todd Bozeman, Tim Floyd, and even Dave Bliss, received other head coaching opportunities despite rampant lack of institutional control and/or knowledgeable cheating. Heck, wouldn't be surprised to see Mike Rice Jr. receive another shot at coaching somewhere in the next few years.
I think he actually gave Duane MU shorts (which Duane then wore at several HS all-star events, thereby providing MU with additional exposure), and at least one ride home.
Fortunately, MU avoided the extra benefit trap by not providing cream cheese for after practice bagels.
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This should come as no surprise, but all coaches cheat, hey?
Yes, in fact those were the exact words Buzz used. Some just get caught more readily....like a member of Buzz's staff.
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He would tell you but to do so would contribute to the softening of America.
Chico's had 20k+ posts. He has proven time and again that he will demagogue a topic into oblivion or moderator lock. He has implied dozens of times that he has sources that told him that Buzz was dirty. He has never once brought forth a single concrete example. Do the math.
Is that right? Slimy, squirmy, etc....doesn't always mean breaking the rules.
That being said, you believe what you want....SMU tried to get Mother Theresa, but he stayed in Milwaukee and they went in a completely different direction to get Larry Brown.
I know the first four people I'd call to the stand under oath...
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Is that right? Slimy, squirmy, etc....doesn't always mean breaking the rules.
That being said, you believe what you want....SMU tried to get Mother Theresa, but he stayed in Milwaukee and they went in a completely different direction to get Larry Brown.
I know the first four people I'd call to the stand under oath...
So let me get this straight, you're saying that because SMU went after (and hired) a known cheater then everyone else they went after has to be a cheater?
So then, you absolutely must think your boycrush Crean is a cheater, right? You see, the hire they made right before they hired Crean was, well, a known cheater, who cheated again at IU. So using your logic, Crean has to be a cheater.
Oh, my, what will Chicos do now that his celeb crush is known to cheat?!
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Is that right? Slimy, squirmy, etc....doesn't always mean breaking the rules.
That being said, you believe what you want....SMU tried to get Mother Theresa, but he stayed in Milwaukee and they went in a completely different direction to get Larry Brown.
I know the first four people I'd call to the stand under oath...
Gary Harris, Hanner Mosquera-Perea, Mark Adams, and Peter Jurkin?
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I hear he's at a football school now, in the middle of nowhere....a place where no one cares about basketball and he can do what he wants until people pay attention. Good spot for him for now. Smart. Of course, things start to get a little better and his fellow ACC schools will start to pay some attention. That's when the fun starts.
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I hear he's at a football school now, in the middle of nowhere....a place where no one cares about basketball and he can do what he wants until people pay attention. Good spot for him for now. Smart. Of course, things start to get a little better and his fellow ACC schools will start to pay some attention. That's when the fun starts.
So you really don't have anything. You're just predicting that in the future he will be a cheater. Outstanding.
Crean's at a school that he is somehow turning into a football first school. Only Thomas Crean would be able to turn IU into a football first school. And that's the direction it's going.
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Crean's at a school that he is somehow turning into a football first school.
laughed out loud for real here - well done
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I did hear there were some issues with the recruitment of Todd Mayo. This comes from someone I trust very much. Outside of that I didn't hear anything of the cheating variety but I know there was some shady stuff surrounding Todd.
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I did hear there were some issues with the recruitment of Todd Mayo. This comes from someone I trust very much. Outside of that I didn't hear anything of the cheating variety but I know there was some shady stuff surrounding Todd.
ND Prep. That place was shady as hell. There always seems to be some finagling done to get kids from there admitted and through the clearinghouse.
The administration was pissed about Crowder getting in, but Mayo probably should have been the target of their angst.
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ND Prep. That place was shady as hell. There always seems to be some finagling done to get kids from there admitted and through the clearinghouse.
The administration was pissed about Crowder getting in, but Mayo probably should have been the target of their angst.
People were furious in the Athletic Department about both Blue's antics (this was before the big stuff) and the fact that they were forced to admit Mayo to school (along with other JC players).
Buzz did not treat his coworkers in the AD like professionals, and steam-rolled them.
I believe that's a leadership problem moreso than a Buzz problem. Leadership allowed Buzz to act that way.
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People were furious in the Athletic Department about both Blue's antics (this was before the big stuff) and the fact that they were forced to admit Mayo to school (along with other JC players).
Buzz did not treat his coworkers in the AD like professionals, and steam-rolled them.
I believe that's a leadership problem moreso than a Buzz problem. Leadership allowed Buzz to act that way.
Agreed. Ideally you have constructive conflict.... the coach's job is to do whatever it takes (within the rules) to win. The administration's job is to set, monitor and enforce the rules to keep in-line with the mission of the University.
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So you really don't have anything. You're just predicting that in the future he will be a cheater. Outstanding.
Crean's at a school that he is somehow turning into a football first school. Only Thomas Crean would be able to turn IU into a football first school. And that's the direction it's going.
I understand your fight with Chicos. And I understand your hatred of Crean. But the bolded is a ludicrous statement.
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I understand your fight with Chicos. And I understand your hatred of Crean. But the bolded is a ludicrous statement.
Said somewhat tongue in cheek, but 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in 7 years isn't exactly the direction that IU should be going in when it comes to their basketball program. IU made the NCAA Tournament 30 of the previous 36 years prior to Tom Crean coming around. Since Crean has taken over, IU has made 3 NCAA Tournaments in 7 years.
6 missed NCAA Tournaments in 36 years before Crean.
4 missed NCAA Tournaments in 7 years with Crean.
He was supposed to "turn the program around." Well, he's succeeded...in taking it from blue blood to bottom half B1G program.
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Said somewhat tongue in cheek, but 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in 7 years isn't exactly the direction that IU should be going in when it comes to their basketball program. IU made the NCAA Tournament 30 of the previous 36 years prior to Tom Crean coming around. Since Crean has taken over, IU has made 3 NCAA Tournaments in 7 years.
6 missed NCAA Tournaments in 36 years before Crean.
4 missed NCAA Tournaments in 7 years with Crean.
He was supposed to "turn the program around." Well, he's succeeded...in taking it from blue blood to bottom half B1G program.
I don't think many people fault him for IU missing the tournament his first two or three years there. And then after that he won a conference championship.
Yes the last two years have been clearly disappointing for IU. But to simply hang the first few on him is nonsensical.
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Very few coaches would have been able to make Indiana competitive so soon after Kelvin Sampson. The roster was absolutely gutted when Crean took over. I think he had 9 freshmen players on his roster, and zero seniors. In his opening press conference, he even said it would take time to rebuild and become consistently competitive again.
This speaks not to the pitfalls to Tom Crean as a head coach, but rather the atrocities that Kelvin Sampson oversaw/participated in while at IU. He completely brought down the Hoosier basketball program, via his illegal recruiting activities, turning a blind eye to the rampant drug use on the team and via his attempted coverup/lying to shield himself from it.
I agree, Crean and Indiana have underperformed the past two years, which he deserves some criticism for - but Crean cannot be blamed for the first 2/3 seasons of his tenure there. That should be attributed to Sampson.
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I don't think many people fault him for IU missing the tournament his first two or three years there. And then after that he won a conference championship.
Yes the last two years have been clearly disappointing for IU. But to simply hang the first few on him is nonsensical.
Well, Larry Brown turned around SMU and made them a Top 25 team in less than two years...
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TC gets a pass for years 1 and 2 (1-17, last place, 4-14, 9th place) but not for year 3 (3-15, a return to last place). He's had a winning record in the BIG twice in 7 seasons.
Should be all good this year, though. Bunch of 5 star players including a point guard who's started over 100 games AND the BIG will be way down.
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Very few coaches would have been able to make Indiana competitive so soon after Kelvin Sampson. The roster was absolutely gutted when Crean took over. I think he had 9 freshmen players on his roster, and zero seniors. In his opening press conference, he even said it would take time to rebuild and become consistently competitive again.
This speaks not to the pitfalls to Tom Crean as a head coach, but rather the atrocities that Kelvin Sampson oversaw/participated in while at IU. He completely brought down the Hoosier basketball program, via his illegal recruiting activities, turning a blind eye to the rampant drug use on the team and via his attempted coverup/lying to shield himself from it.
I agree, Crean and Indiana have underperformed the past two years, which he deserves some criticism for - but Crean cannot be blamed for the first 2/3 seasons of his tenure there. That should be attributed to Sampson.
Regardless of how many seasons you think it might take to rebuild a true blue blood program, 4 NCAA Tournament wins in 7 years at IU is completely underachieving. Sweet 16 as the best year is completely underachieving in 7 years at IU, even if he had to rebuild for the first few years.
Also, the whole "turning the blind eye to rampant drug use" hasn't exactly been fixed since Crean took over at IU. And as a result, Luke Fischer came home to play for Marquette.
Matt Doherty had UNC in the absolute dumps. His last year at UNC was 2002-2003. By 2005 they were National Champions. That's how true blue bloods like "It's Indiana, It's Indiana," respond to a coaching mistake. Not by going 121-111 (.522) in 7 seasons.
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TC gets a pass for years 1 and 2 (1-17, last place, 4-14, 9th place) but not for year 3 (3-15, a return to last place). He's had a winning record in the BIG twice in 7 seasons.
Should be all good this year, though. Bunch of 5 star players including a point guard who's started over 100 games AND the BIG will be way down.
If they can stay sober, non-stoned, quit running over teammates, etc.
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If they can stay sober, non-stoned, quit running over teammates, etc.
Good point. The "culture" he's created could be a problem.
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If they can stay sober, non-stoned, quit running over teammates the starting power forward, etc.
FIFY
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Said somewhat tongue in cheek, but 3 NCAA Tournament appearances in 7 years isn't exactly the direction that IU should be going in when it comes to their basketball program. IU made the NCAA Tournament 30 of the previous 36 years prior to Tom Crean coming around. Since Crean has taken over, IU has made 3 NCAA Tournaments in 7 years.
6 missed NCAA Tournaments in 36 years before Crean.
4 missed NCAA Tournaments in 7 years with Crean.
He was supposed to "turn the program around." Well, he's succeeded...in taking it from blue blood to bottom half B1G program.
Weird, 3 tournaments in 7 years also is 3 tournaments in 4 years. I guess you were being selective and using "tongue in cheek". First Big Ten title outright in decades. Good team coming this year. Perfect APR scores three straight years. He's had his share of issues, no doubt.
Meanwhile, our only Final Four in the last 39 years was coached by........
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Meanwhile, our only Final Four in the last 39 years was coached by........
Dwyane Wade?
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Weird, 3 tournaments in 7 years also is 3 tournaments in 4 years. I guess you were being selective and using "tongue in cheek". First Big Ten title outright in decades. Good team coming this year. Perfect APR scores three straight years. He's had his share of issues, no doubt.
Meanwhile, our only Final Four in the last 39 years was coached by........
Selective sampling all around... "Crean reached every Final Four in 2003! Dynasty!"
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Weird, 3 tournaments in 7 years also is 3 tournaments in 4 years. I guess you were being selective and using "tongue in cheek". First Big Ten title outright in decades. Good team coming this year. Perfect APR scores three straight years. He's had his share of issues, no doubt.
Meanwhile, our only Final Four in the last 39 years was coached by........
3 Tournaments in 7 years is what he's done at IU. Not sure why that's hard to comprehend. It's a fact. He's coached at IU for 7 years. He's gone to 3 NCAA Tournaments in those 7 years. There is nothing at all selective about it. That's looking at the full body of work. Looking only at his (very minor by IU standards) successes is where "selective" comes in.
Again, true blue bloods (which IU is) respond to coaching mistakes (which Kelvin Sampson was) by turning around and having huge NCAA Tournament success (UNC won a National Title 2 years after they fired their worst coaching mistake in program history). They don't respond by going 10 over .500 in 7 years. That's embarrassing. They don't have a ceiling of Sweet 16 (the best Crean has ever done beyond having a top 20 basketball player of all time fall into his lap). They should be competing for National Titles year in and year out, not proudly flaunting their 3 Tourney appearances in 4 years ::). They should be the best program in their own state, not the 3rd best. They shouldn't have players transferring out because of the culture of drug use and players drunkenly driving over their teammates.
Crean is worse for IU than Sampson was. Sampson actually won their. Had they made the right hire they would've been back to winning and still "It's Indiana, It's Indiana." Instead, IU went from a cheating blue blood (like many blue blood programs are) to a middle of the pack B1G program (unlike any blue blood program).
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3 Tournaments in 7 years is what he's done at IU. Not sure why that's hard to comprehend. It's a fact. He's coached at IU for 7 years. He's gone to 3 NCAA Tournaments in those 7 years. There is nothing at all selective about it. That's looking at the full body of work. Looking only at his (very minor by IU standards) successes is where "selective" comes in.
Again, true blue bloods (which IU is) respond to coaching mistakes (which Kelvin Sampson was) by turning around and having huge NCAA Tournament success (UNC won a National Title 2 years after they fired their worst coaching mistake in program history). They don't respond by going 10 over .500 in 7 years. That's embarrassing. They don't have a ceiling of Sweet 16 (the best Crean has ever done beyond having a top 20 basketball player of all time fall into his lap). They should be competing for National Titles year in and year out, not proudly flaunting their 3 Tourney appearances in 4 years ::). They should be the best program in their own state, not the 3rd best. They shouldn't have players transferring out because of the culture of drug use and players drunkenly driving over their teammates.
Crean is worse for IU than Sampson was. Sampson actually won their. Had they made the right hire they would've been back to winning and still "It's Indiana, It's Indiana." Instead, IU went from a cheating blue blood (like many blue blood programs are) to a middle of the pack B1G program (unlike any blue blood program).
I disagree with a lot of this, but can at least see why someone would think this way. The bolded section however, I don't see how any reasonable person could believe that.
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16 seasons a head coach. 8 trips to the big dance. One trip past the sweet 16. If a resume like that would have applied for the MU job after Buzz, no one would have wanted that guy.
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16 seasons a head coach. 8 trips to the big dance. One trip past the sweet 16. If a resume like that would have applied for the MU job after Buzz, no one would have wanted that guy.
+1
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I disagree with a lot of this, but can at least see why someone would think this way. The bolded section however, I don't see how any reasonable person could believe that.
A blue blood program can recover from NCAA sanctions by making a good hire. It happens. What's harder to recover from is when a coach takes a blue blood and makes them no longer a blue blood. When you show that you're willing to settle for anything less than being in the hunt for a National Title year in and year out (obviously some years you just have bad years - UK missed the Tourney a few years ago but obviously turned it around the next year) you show you're no longer a blue blood. That's what Crean has done to IU (as evidenced by the fact that Chicos wants to flaunt "3 NCAA Tournament appearances in 4 years baby!"). That wasn't acceptable at the time that Sampson left IU, even knowing he had cheated. All of a sudden that's just what the culture is at IU. "Hey, we might get to the Dance this year, this could be a good year!" That attitude is a much, much bigger issue for a (now past) blue blood than having to move past NCAA recruiting violations.
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I think you are completely off base that Crean was the one to take "a blue blood and makes them no longer a blue blood."
After the 2001-02 Final Four season, IU did nothing significant under Mike Davis for four seasons and Sampson for two. Hell you could even argue that they fell from blue blood status during the end of the Knight era where they didn't reach the Sweet 16 for his last six seasons.
So if you include those six seasons, and the Davis and Sampson eras, in those 14 years, IU went to 11 NCAA tournaments, but only went to the Sweet 16 (and then the Final Four) once. That certainly isn't the resume of a blue blood.
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I think you are completely off base that Crean was the one to take "a blue blood and makes them no longer a blue blood."
After the 2001-02 Final Four season, IU did nothing significant under Mike Davis for four seasons and Sampson for two. Hell you could even argue that they fell from blue blood status during the end of the Knight era where they didn't reach the Sweet 16 for his last six seasons.
So if you include those six seasons, and the Davis and Sampson eras, in those 14 years, IU went to 11 NCAA tournaments, but only went to the Sweet 16 (and then the Final Four) once. That certainly isn't the resume of a blue blood.
Fair points. I guess I'm just looking at the attitude of the fanbases. If their mindset really is "We've made 3 of the past 4 NCAA Tournaments!" I think that's far different from when Mike Davis was at the helm.
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I think you are completely off base that Crean was the one to take "a blue blood and makes them no longer a blue blood."
After the 2001-02 Final Four season, IU did nothing significant under Mike Davis for four seasons and Sampson for two. Hell you could even argue that they fell from blue blood status during the end of the Knight era where they didn't reach the Sweet 16 for his last six seasons.
So if you include those six seasons, and the Davis and Sampson eras, in those 14 years, IU went to 11 NCAA tournaments, but only went to the Sweet 16 (and then the Final Four) once. That certainly isn't the resume of a blue blood.
Well, Crean was hired to return them to perennial glory and in that he has failed. That is the bottom line.
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Well, Crean was hired to return them to perennial glory and in that he has failed. That is the bottom line.
I agree with that. Started well, but clearly fizzled.
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Crean picked the absolute best time to go to Bloomington:
1. IU was two coaches removed from their "legend".
2. Zero expectations for years 1 and 2 (and 3, as it turned out). That kind of leash is rare at a mediocre program. I don't think it's ever happened before at a blue blood.
Tradition, great recruiting base and patience from the administration and fan base. Dream scenario. Mixed results.
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I thought this thread was about Bert?
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Weird, 3 tournaments in 7 years also is 3 tournaments in 4 years. I guess you were being selective and using "tongue in cheek". First Big Ten title outright in decades. Good team coming this year. Perfect APR scores three straight years. He's had his share of issues, no doubt.
Meanwhile, our only Final Four in the last 39 years was coached by........
Does coaching in the final four count when the coaching job referred to is disavowed by everyone including the coach involved.
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3 Tournaments in 7 years is what he's done at IU. Not sure why that's hard to comprehend. It's a fact. He's coached at IU for 7 years. He's gone to 3 NCAA Tournaments in those 7 years. There is nothing at all selective about it. That's looking at the full body of work. Looking only at his (very minor by IU standards) successes is where "selective" comes in.
Incredibly selective.
If you said the New England Patriots have only won one Super Bowl in the last 10 years you would be correct. Of course if you said they won the last Super Bowl you would also be correct. The first sentence would get you laughed out of the room, even though you are correct.
How you can ignore the first three years of what he had is beyond me, but whatever. Sure feels selective.
At any rate, are you bitter or something about it? Fred Glass and IU apparently don't agree with you. As for Sampson....well that version of the Big Ten was not exactly what the current Big Ten is. In the three years Sampson coached in that conference, it was rated 4th, 6th and 2nd...and when it was second he got fired and didn't finish out. The conference that Crean has coached in has been 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 1st, 1st (they won the conference that year), 2nd, and 4th. A lot harder conference version.
But whatever 3 of 7....Patriots have won the Super Bowl once in the last 10 years.
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Fair points. I guess I'm just looking at the attitude of the fanbases. If their mindset really is "We've made 3 of the past 4 NCAA Tournaments!" I think that's far different from when Mike Davis was at the helm.
That's not the point....most level headed people know what happened in years 1 to 3. Certainly the administration and AD do. You don't seem to be level headed, and certainly most fan bases are...but they aren't the ones making the decisions.
Mike Davis coached in a Big Ten that one year sent 3 teams to the NCAA tournament. That's how bad the Big Ten was when Mike Davis was around.
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A blue blood program can recover from NCAA sanctions by making a good hire. It happens. What's harder to recover from is when a coach takes a blue blood and makes them no longer a blue blood. When you show that you're willing to settle for anything less than being in the hunt for a National Title year in and year out (obviously some years you just have bad years - UK missed the Tourney a few years ago but obviously turned it around the next year) you show you're no longer a blue blood.
Sure, if IU wanted to cheat like UK does, they probably could. They don't want to go down that path. Different strokes for different folks.
What troubles me with your "selective" analysis is that you totally ignore that IU has been average for the last 20 years. This isn't a Crean thing, they've been anything like a blue blood the last 20 years. What happened in the last 5 or 6 years with Knight in the tournament? They got crapcanned constantly. Not just beat, but rolled by nobody teams. It's one thing to get upset, lose by 3 to 5 points, quite another to destroyed. What do they have in the last 20 years....3 Sweet 16's? Two are from the Crean era. How many Big Ten titles outright? One. Guess who.
My point is, yeah he hasn't returned them to the promise land, but no one has since Knight left and quite frankly the last half dozen years with Knight weren't at IU standards. This is endemic within the IU program. Would you argue he hasn't had the most success of anyone since Knight when you properly factor in what he walked into?
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Sure, if IU wanted to cheat like UK does, they probably could. They don't want to go down that path. Different strokes for different folks.
What troubles me with your "selective" analysis is that you totally ignore that IU has been average for the last 20 years. This isn't a Crean thing, they've been anything like a blue blood the last 20 years. What happened in the last 5 or 6 years with Knight in the tournament? They got crapcanned constantly. Not just beat, but rolled by nobody teams. It's one thing to get upset, lose by 3 to 5 points, quite another to destroyed. What do they have in the last 20 years....3 Sweet 16's? Two are from the Crean era. How many Big Ten titles outright? One. Guess who.
My point is, yeah he hasn't returned them to the promise land, but no one has since Knight left and quite frankly the last half dozen years with Knight weren't at IU standards. This is endemic within the IU program. Would you argue he hasn't had the most success of anyone since Knight when you properly factor in what he walked into?
Haha. So you'd rather have a team just underachieve and miss the NCAA Tournament then get "rolled" in it? Got it. How about a team with 2 of the top 5 draft picks in a single draft class being ranked number 1 for a large part of the regular season and only getting to the Sweet 16? But hey, they didn't get steam rolled!
BUT that 2003 Final Four steam rolling wasn't embarrassing at all because we got there!
Have it both ways, Chicos. Please.
Also, "no one has since Knight left" when speaking of "returning to the promised land" is simply false. Unless you think making it to a National Title is falling short of the promised land. Which is fine. That's what you think. Yet you continue to flaunt a Conference Championship and 2 Sweet 16s and conference rankings and claim Crean is better than Mike Davis because the B1G was harder and Mike only made it to the National Title. Who would want to make it to a National Title when you can have a B1G title when it was ranked a spot better as a conference than when Mike Davis and Kelvin Sampson were around? This argument is beyond silly. Even from you.
You think picking certain years out of a larger body of work (see: a selection) is being something other than being selective while looking at a total body of work is being selective. It's hilarious how ridiculous that is.
I guess the Golden State Warriors are the best NBA Franchise in history. I mean, they've won 1 out of the last 1 NBA Titles!
Also, please provide proof that UK is cheating. I'd love to see it. Never have before.
And please tell me how Crean runs a program IU fans are proud of. How players under Sampson were doing drugs and going crazy partying, but Crean's boys are all choir boys. Don't forget all the suspensions that finally magically started to happen only after one of Crean's underage players drunkenly ran over his own teammate in a vehicle. But it's just a coincidence, there was absolutely no drug or alcohol use in the 6 years prior to that instance, it was just that instance and it then spurred 2 other players to use marijuana after that. Crean wouldn't look the other way as long as none of this culture got out in the public or anything. Just ask Luke Fischer how clean all the players at IU were.
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3 tournaments in 4 years
That is a Bronz Beast of Bloomington Banner waiting to happen...
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Story on the IU boards is that Fischer came to MU because he was uncomfortable with the amount of drugs and booze being imbibed by his teammates, not just because he was homesick. Of course, it is an internet rumor and should be treated as such.
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Story on the IU boards is that Fischer came to MU because he was uncomfortable with the amount of drugs and booze being imbibed by his teammates, not just because he was homesick. Of course, it is an internet rumor and should be treated as such.
Interesting because last year I visited some of my buddies still at MU and went to a massive party... 99% sure I saw Fisher there with a beer. Of course I can't be sure but how many 6-11 guys with a blond fohawk are there on mus campus?
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Being "uncomfortable with the amount of drugs and booze" doesn't mean he can't drink a beer.
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Gotta be 21, doe, ai na?
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Gotta be 21, doe, ai na?
for everyone else but me! of course the drink'in age was 18 then and i was 18 er 17 er16?
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Being "uncomfortable with the amount of drugs and booze" doesn't mean he can't drink a beer.
Well this was one of the bigger parties I'd seen at MU in 5yrs of being there plus my post grad year and Senior in HS visiting friends there... If someone was uncomfortable with drinking and such it didn't seem to be the right place to be... That being said there was a bouncy house but I don't think he'd have fit in it.
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Gotta be 21, doe, ai na?
I started Marquette when I was 17. That never posed an issue for the friendly barkeeps along Wells and State Streets.
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Haha. So you'd rather have a team just underachieve and miss the NCAA Tournament then get "rolled" in it? Got it. How about a team with 2 of the top 5 draft picks in a single draft class being ranked number 1 for a large part of the regular season and only getting to the Sweet 16? But hey, they didn't get steam rolled!
Actually that IU team did get rolled. They were manhandled by Syracuse.
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Interesting because last year I visited some of my buddies still at MU and went to a massive party... 99% sure I saw Fisher there with a beer. Of course I can't be sure but how many 6-11 guys with a blond fohawk are there on mus campus?
Oh no! A kid from the state of Wisconsin having a BEER!
I hope he didn't have a brat too.
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Oh no! A kid from the state of Wisconsin having a BEER!
I hope he didn't have a brat too.
All I'm saying is if he wasn't about the other guys partying it just seems weird that he was there. I'm not judging just seems strange
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All I'm saying is if he wasn't about the other guys partying it just seems weird that he was there. I'm not judging just seems strange
I've never had a problem hanging out with people who are drinking. I stopped drinking right after my senior year in college and I still have no problem hanging around people who are drinking, going to crowded/rowdy places, etc. Especially if I'm there with a group of friends. But I prefer that my friends also like to do things other than just that, and if the culture at IU was that of just play basketball and drink and do drugs when you're not playing basketball, I can certainly understand how someone who doesn't mind throwing a few back would still be turned off by that kind of culture.
I prefer not to be hanging around people while they are doing drugs. And I definitely want nothing to do with people who are drinking heavily and then getting behind the wheel of a car. Even when I did drink and had no problem enjoying a few (too many) cold ones with large groups of people, I still preferred to hang out with people who were not doing the first two things. I'm not saying it makes them bad people, just not particularly the setting I was looking for.
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I was at IU when Pat Knight was there and the crap going on then with alcohol and weed was crazy. That was with Knight as coach. In the 1970's and 1980's there were legendary stories about that stuff all the time and the Bloomington Police calling RMK if something went down. Now, RMK would bring hell and fury to that player, but the point is that it was going on. Rather than arrest the kid, they'd let the team discipline the players. This stuff happens at a lot of places....including Green Bay, Wisconsin. Those of you connected with the Packers can rattle off at least 10 of these incidents from the last 30 years.
It's how it is. Some of you are either naive or just plain being selective. Don't think it didn't happen at MU, too....because it sure as hell did and has.
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I was at IU when Pat Knight was there and the crap going on then with alcohol and weed was crazy. That was with Knight as coach. In the 1970's and 1980's there were legendary stories about that stuff all the time and the Bloomington Police calling RMK if something went down. Now, RMK would bring hell and fury to that player, but the point is that it was going on. Rather than arrest the kid, they'd let the team discipline the players. This stuff happens at a lot of places....including Green Bay, Wisconsin. Those of you connected with the Packers can rattle off at least 10 of these incidents from the last 30 years.
It's how it is. Some of you are either naive or just plain being selective. Don't think it didn't happen at MU, too....because it sure as hell did and has.
Nope. Not many athletic teams have 19 year olds drunkenly driving over their own teammates. In fact only 1 that I can think of has had that happen.
And hey, I'm not the one who used to reference the clean nature of the program as proof that Crean had succeeded in doing what he was brought in to do (get rid of all of the negativity surrounding the program, including the drug culture going on). Now we've backtracked to "a professional franchise that has 53 players on their roster has had 10 incidents in the last 30 years, see, it happens everywhere!" Far cry from "Crean has made this program clean as a whistle." Especially coming from a guy who passive aggressively brings up any incident MU had under Bert at any and every possible opportunity he could until the issues surrounding Crean's program became too public to deny anymore. Then and only then do the suspensions start rolling around. That is the sign of a man in charge. Only punish the actions after they've become public and you can't explain your way around them. Classic.
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Don't think it didn't happen at MU, too....because it sure as hell did and has.
Oliver Lee and Sam Worthen never smoked weed. Never!
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Neither did Bernard.
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All I'm saying is if he wasn't about the other guys partying it just seems weird that he was there. I'm not judging just seems strange
Let me explain this again. The rumor from the IU boards has to do with "the amount" of drinking and drugs around the IU team.
When I was in college, I had no problem hanging out with my group of friends at large parties and having a couple beers and occasionally drinking to excess. I would have had a problem if those friends were *regularly* drinking to excess and using drugs. See the difference?
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Story on the IU boards is that Fischer came to MU because he was uncomfortable with the amount of drugs and booze being imbibed by his teammates, not just because he was homesick. Of course, it is an internet rumor and should be treated as such.
I remember a guy transferring out of Indiana in the mid-70's because he felt he didn't really fit in...that certainly worked out well for his new school. Let's hope Luke ends up doing the same for us.
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Wades and sultan point understood.
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I remember a guy transferring out of Indiana in the mid-70's because he felt he didn't really fit in...that certainly worked out well for his new school. Let's hope Luke ends up doing the same for us.
Nah, that guy lost in the championship game. What are we now, Butler?
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I remember a guy transferring out of Indiana in the mid-70's because he felt he didn't really fit in...that certainly worked out well for his new school. Let's hope Luke ends up doing the same for us.
Marquette is no Indiana State, doe, ai na?
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Marquette is no Indiana State, doe, ai na?
Luke is no Larry either
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Nope. Not many athletic teams have 19 year olds drunkenly driving over their own teammates. In fact only 1 that I can think of has had that happen.
I can't think of any. Driving over teammates? Apparently you didn't read the details, that's not what happened.
The program today vs what he walked into, NIGHT AND DAY difference. That's why Fred Glass is sticking with him. Night and day difference. Not even on the same planet. The level of drugs, the academic disaster, etc, etc.
When the rape allegations and cover up start like with Buzz, let me know. When members of Crean's staff are fired for NCAA rules violations and lying about them....let me know.
Classic
Oh, the Patriots have only won one Super Bowl in the last 10 years.
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Also, "no one has since Knight left" when speaking of "returning to the promised land" is simply false. Unless you think making it to a National Title is falling short of the promised land. Which is fine. That's what you think. Yet you continue to flaunt a Conference Championship and 2 Sweet 16s and conference rankings and claim Crean is better than Mike Davis because the B1G was harder and Mike only made it to the National Title.
Davis was so great, with KNIGHT'S players, that he was fired a few years later. I'll repeat, no one has sustained anything to return IU to anywhere close to what they were. NO ONE. Not one year where they made it to the Finals. NO ONE. Even Knight's last 6 years in the tournament were horrendous. It's one thing to lose games, they were often run out of the gym.
They've been a middle level Big Ten program for more than 20 years. You can deny this fact all you wish, but you would be dead wrong.
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Davis was so great, with KNIGHT'S players, that he was fired a few years later. I'll repeat, no one has sustained anything to return IU to anywhere close to what they were. NO ONE. Not one year where they made it to the Finals. NO ONE. Even Knight's last 6 years in the tournament were horrendous. It's one thing to lose games, they were often run out of the gym.
They've been a middle level Big Ten program for more than 20 years. You can deny this fact all you wish, but you would be dead wrong.
Wait a minute! You say that Davis went to the Final but with Knight's players then you turn around and say that Knight did nothing at the end.
Your logic is entertaining.
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Davis was so great, with KNIGHT'S players, that he was fired a few years later. I'll repeat, no one has sustained anything to return IU to anywhere close to what they were. NO ONE. Not one year where they made it to the Finals. NO ONE. Even Knight's last 6 years in the tournament were horrendous. It's one thing to lose games, they were often run out of the gym.
They've been a middle level Big Ten program for more than 20 years. You can deny this fact all you wish, but you would be dead wrong.
So Knight's last 6 years sucked so not even he could get IU back to where he once had them, but we can't count David's run to the National Title because it was with Knight's guys. So what you're saying is the National Title run doesn't count for anyone or for determining whether IU is a blue blood or middle of the pack B1G team? Gotcha. That makes sense. Knight doesn't get credit because he couldn't get back to where he had the program and Davis doesn't get credit because they weren't his guys, so nobody gets credit.
Again, have it both ways.
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Wait a minute! You say that Davis went to the Final but with Knight's players then you turn around and say that Knight did nothing at the end.
Your logic is entertaining.
Haha exactly. I think everyone here besides Chicos is on the same page. The lengths he goes to try to defend the boyfriend is absurd. He embarrassed himself to defend someone he pretends he finds to be a dick.
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I can't think of any. Driving over teammates? Apparently you didn't read the details, that's not what happened.
The program today vs what he walked into, NIGHT AND DAY difference. That's why Fred Glass is sticking with him. Night and day difference. Not even on the same planet. The level of drugs, the academic disaster, etc, etc.
When the rape allegations and cover up start like with Buzz, let me know. When members of Crean's staff are fired for NCAA rules violations and lying about them....let me know.
Classic
Oh, the Patriots have only won one Super Bowl in the last 10 years.
Yup, running over his own teammate with a vehicle while being drunk at 19 years old. Way worse than anything going on under Sampson! And those multiple marijuana suspensions we've just now started seeing after these incidences couldn't be kept in house anymore show how drug free the program is! Players transferring out because of all the drug use and such. All just show how far the program has come in terms of drug use!
You also don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about regarding the incident under Buzz. Not the first single clue. You're talking 100% out of your ass and everyone who has any knowledge of any of it knows this. Character revealed.
Not to mention, unless I'm mistaken, Bert never coached at IU. So what does he have to do with this?
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Wait a minute! You say that Davis went to the Final but with Knight's players then you turn around and say that Knight did nothing at the end.
Your logic is entertaining.
Not at all.
Knight's last 6 years they struggled mightily in the tournament...blown out, but he had two very good recruiting classes prior to being let go. Those classes came into maturation when Davis was the head coach. It's also why Davis couldn't do anything else because he couldn't get the talent that he inherited.
Nothing illogical about it at all, in fact entirely logical. Really not hard Colonel.
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So Knight's last 6 years sucked so not even he could get IU back to where he once had them, but we can't count David's run to the National Title because it was with Knight's guys. So what you're saying is the National Title run doesn't count for anyone or for determining whether IU is a blue blood or middle of the pack B1G team? Gotcha. That makes sense. Knight doesn't get credit because he couldn't get back to where he had the program and Davis doesn't get credit because they weren't his guys, so nobody gets credit.
Again, have it both ways.
I think you have a reading problem...I really do. Where did I say you can't count Davis's run (not David's)? I said sustained success, back to prominence as in a steady return to the level they were at. Yes, they made a great run to get to the Finals.
I'll repeat, they haven't had any repeatable high level success that would be equated to a blue blood program in the last 20+ years.
1995 0-1
1996 0-1 lost by 13 to Boston College
1997 0-1 lost by 18 to Colorado
1998 1-1 lost by double digits
1999 1-1 lost by 25
2000 0-1 lost by 20 to Pepperdine
2001 0-1 lost to Kent State
2002 5-1 made it to the NCAA Finals This was their one blue blood year
2003 1-1
2004 No tournament
2005 No tournament
2006 1-1
2007 1-1
2008 0-1
2009 No tournament, NCAA probation, one scholarship player
2010 No tournament
2011 No tournament
2012 2-1 (second Sweet 16 in 18 years)
2013 2-1 (third Sweet 16 in 19 years) First Big Ten Title outright in 21 years
2014 No tournament
2015 0-1
Maybe you view that as a record of a blue blood. Compare that 20 years to any other blue blood. Conference titles, tournament success, etc. It will come in dead last. No one has been able to get them going.
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Yup, running over his own teammate with a vehicle while being drunk at 19 years old. Way worse than anything going on under Sampson! And those multiple marijuana suspensions we've just now started seeing after these incidences couldn't be kept in house anymore show how drug free the program is! Players transferring out because of all the drug use and such. All just show how far the program has come in terms of drug use!
You also don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about regarding the incident under Buzz. Not the first single clue. You're talking 100% out of your ass and everyone who has any knowledge of any of it knows this. Character revealed.
Not to mention, unless I'm mistaken, Bert never coached at IU. So what does he have to do with this?
Again, running over his teammate. Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. No one was run over. No one. Funny, you claim I have no idea about what happened with Buzz and you keep repeating that Davis was run over. No he wasn't. LOL.
Secondly, you are wrong again....suspensions happened BEFORE that incident. So now you're 0 for 2.
Third, I have plenty of knowledge what happened including the civil action taken. Tsk tsk.
Hey, 3 out of 7....character revealed.
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Haha exactly. I think everyone here besides Chicos is on the same page. The lengths he goes to try to defend the boyfriend is absurd. He embarrassed himself to defend someone he pretends he finds to be a dick.
Chicos does go over the top to defend TC. But not as over the top as some here go to tear him down. The man did great things for our alma mater. He was quirky, to some he was an a$$hole, and he left in a very crap*y manner. But that doesn't negate all the positives like the final four, Dwayne Wade, the Big East, the Al, and a return to basketball relevancy. TC was by far a net positive for Marquette. The fact that all we do is b*tch about him is evidence of our maturity level. We are like 16 year old girls who are bitter about a break up.
TC has been a huge positive for IU. He has taken them from the basement to being a regular contender in the B1G. Has he met all expectations? Absolutely not. Has there been some really bad moments? Absolutely. But anyone who expects a program that has been garbage for years to turn it back into a blue blood overnight has unrealistic expectations. Yes, there have been player conduct issues. We know about them because they are being reported and the players are being held accountable for it. Don't be so naive that you would believe that Indiana is the only place where players are smoking the ganja. It happens everywhere and is ignored at most places. Hell, some places the coaches were present for it! Our players certainly enjoyed a lot of weed when they were at MU. Under Buzz, at least. I think Wojo runs a tighter ship.
In the end, TC was an a$$hole who did wonderful things for Marquette. Now he is someone else's a$$hole. Can't we leave it at that?
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Again, running over his teammate. Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. No one was run over. No one. Funny, you claim I have no idea about what happened with Buzz and you keep repeating that Davis was run over. No he wasn't. LOL.
Chicos, are you really going to hang your argument on "he wasn't run over, he was hit in the head by the windshield?"
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Chicos, are you really going to hang your argument on "he wasn't run over, he was hit in the head by the windshield?"
Two things.
1) Running over means running over
2) Davis was at fault as he jumped into the car from the side and hit the front right fender and windshield. No fault from the driver.
Yes, it makes a difference. Wadesworld, in his unbias approach would have you believe that someone was targeting him and literally ran him over. I'm surprised he hasn't said he put it in reverse and ran him over backwards, too.
There is a difference and it does matter. Davis was at fault, not the driver. That is settled. The driver was also not legally intoxicated, but because he was a minor consuming he got busted....as he should.
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Two things.
1) Running over means running over
2) Davis was at fault as he jumped into the car from the side and hit the front right fender and windshield. No fault from the driver.
Yes, it makes a difference. Wadesworld, in his unbias approach would have you believe that someone was targeting him and literally ran him over. I'm surprised he hasn't said he put it in reverse and ran him over backwards, too.
There is a difference and it does matter. Davis was at fault, not the driver. That is settled. The driver was also not legally intoxicated, but because he was a minor consuming he got busted....as he should.
I see both as two very bad situations. It's like the guy who albis out of an armed robbery because he was robbing a bank at the same time
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I see both as two very bad situations. It's like the guy who albis out of an armed robbery because he was robbing a bank at the same time
There is a reason why no fault was found with the driver, because there was no fault. Your analogy is pretty poor.
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Chicos needs to adjust his medications again.
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2) Davis was at fault as he jumped into the car from the side and hit the front right fender and windshield. No fault from the driver.
This is the most absurd thing ever posted on Scoop!!
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There is a reason why no fault was found with the driver, because there was no fault. Your analogy is pretty poor.
Not true. The police said Davis was *mostly at fault*... they also cited the then-18 year old Holt for underage drinking and operating a vehicle while drinking under age.
Holt says deep down he knows it was his fault. He feels bad "for what he did." His words. He finds fault in his actions.
The legal system is what it is. It's hardly a good barometer for "who is at fault and who is not"
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Good lord, is Chico's really trying to spin last year's IU team's off court issues. Wow. The man has no shame. He had better be an F2 tornado to spin fast enough on this one.
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Two things.
1) Running over means running over
2) Davis was at fault as he jumped into the car from the side and hit the front right fender and windshield. No fault from the driver.
Yes, it makes a difference. Wadesworld, in his unbias approach would have you believe that someone was targeting him and literally ran him over. I'm surprised he hasn't said he put it in reverse and ran him over backwards, too.
There is a difference and it does matter. Davis was at fault, not the driver. That is settled. The driver was also not legally intoxicated, but because he was a minor consuming he got busted....as he should.
LOL! ::)
Chicos, as I said before, you go to absolutely insane lengths to defend your boyfriend that you say you don't like as a person at all.
When Eddie Lacy knocks down (pick a Cowboys defensive player) trying to tackle him this year and your son makes fun of you for Lacy "running over" the player are you going to correct him and say "No, son, he didn't run in place on top of (Cowboys defensive player), you are wrong." Or are you going to laugh and say "Yup that was good."
When the women who I witnessed get run over (see: hit and flipped over the hood) by a car on Halloween while I was at MU told police officers that she got "run over" by a car while crossing the street before the car drove away, should I have told the police "Woah woah woah, check her body for tire markings! I did not see such a thing, she got hit, not run over!" ::)
My apologies, Chicos. You are correct, Crean has ABSOLUTELY cleaned this program up. NIGHT AND DAY! COMPLETE TURNAROUND! The underage player who was drunk only HIT his teammate with a vehicle, he did NOT run the player over and then put it in reverse and run him over again. What a great program! ::)
I would have them believe that one teammate targeted the other? Uhh, no. I would have them believe that one teammate drunkenly HIT (no, the wheels did not go over the player's body, my bad, didn't know you were that incompetent) his own teammate while he was underage. Which is exactly what happened. But the program is perfect! Not a speck of trouble there, the player only HIT the other player, the tires never ran over the other player. That's common, no issue at all. ::)
And really? The marijuana suspensions came BEFORE one player HIT another player while driving drunkenly and underage? I guess November 1, 2014 is now AFTER May 12, 2015? Only in your "Crean is perfect" world, Chicos. ::)
Unless there are more marijuana suspensions I'm missing within the IU program? If so, maybe IU's program isn't so squeaky clean? ::)
Also, regarding the "rape" at Marquette. You might want some new sources if that's the information you got. Was it a black on on the program? Absolutely. Was it something to be proud of? Absolutely not. Was it something embarrassing? Something that should not have happened? No doubt. Was it rape? HELL NO! Maybe befriend different B1G ADs, because the ones you know don't know jack.
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Two things.
1) Running over means running over
2) Davis was at fault as he jumped into the car from the side and hit the front right fender and windshield. No fault from the driver.
Yes, it makes a difference. Wadesworld, in his unbias approach would have you believe that someone was targeting him and literally ran him over. I'm surprised he hasn't said he put it in reverse and ran him over backwards, too.
There is a difference and it does matter. Davis was at fault, not the driver. That is settled. The driver was also not legally intoxicated, but because he was a minor consuming he got busted....as he should.
I just got back from my daily six and I have to say thinking about this post made me laugh aloud while out running. If nothing else I have to thank you for offering a defense of The Bronze Beast of Bloomington that is so absurd as to be comical. Again, thanks for the hearty laugh. You really should consider a second career as an Absurdist Playwright:
Pinter, Ionesco, Genet, Albee, Havel, Beckett, Stoppard, and The Bail Bondsman...
Some title suggestions:
Waiting for Harbaugh
Who's Afraid of Virginia Tech?
Tommy's Last Tape
Sampson & Meyer Are Dead
Joanie's Ire
The Izzo Story
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This isn't hard.
Jared Jeffries, one of the final recruits Knight landed and part of Knight's last recruiting class. Consensus top 10 kid RSCI....key to the title game run two years later. JJ was the team's leading scorer on the team that went to the championship, but never played a minute for Knight.
AJ Moye and George Leach, also in Knight's last class. Never played a minute for Knight.
Tom Coverdale, Hornsby and Newton were from the class prior...only played one year as freshmen for Knight. They were key juniors on that team, all three of them finishing in the top 6 in scoring.
Those last two recruiting classes were huge for Knight, but Davis got them when they matured, not Knight. Throw in seniors Odle and Dane Fife, and that team was pretty good....ALL of them recruited by Knight.
The only players on that team that were Davis guys were Johnson, Perry and Tapak...two of them scored less than 10 points for the entire year. Davis was in the right place at the right time with Knight's players who had a few years of maturing under them.
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This isn't hard.
Jared Jeffries, one of the final recruits Knight landed and part of Knight's last recruiting class. Consensus top 10 kid RSCI....key to the title game run two years later. JJ was the team's leading scorer on the team that went to the championship, but never played a minute for Knight.
AJ Moye and George Leach, also in Knight's last class. Never played a minute for Knight.
Tom Coverdale, Hornsby and Newton were from the class prior...only played one year as freshmen for Knight. They were key juniors on that team, all three of them finishing in the top 6 in scoring.
Those last two recruiting classes were huge for Knight, but Davis got them when they matured, not Knight. Throw in seniors Odle and Dane Fife, and that team was pretty good....ALL of them recruited by Knight.
The only players on that team that were Davis guys were Johnson, Perry and Tapak...two of them scored less than 10 points for the entire year. Davis was in the right place at the right time with Knight's players who had a few years of maturing under them.
You're right, it isn't hard. So Knight is to be credited for their run to the National Finals. So he DID, in fact, do something in his last 6 years, in recruiting a roster that made a run to the National Title game, despite you saying over and over and over that Knight did not do anything in his last 6 years.
SOMEBODY has to get some credit for IU's run to the National Title. So thank you for (finally) clearing that up. It wasn't hard, you are right. But, as always, you made it hard.
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LOL! ::)
Chicos, as I said before, you go to absolutely insane lengths to defend your boyfriend that you say you don't like as a person at all.
When Eddie Lacy knocks down (pick a Cowboys defensive player) trying to tackle him this year and your son makes fun of you for Lacy "running over" the player are you going to correct him and say "No, son, he didn't run in place on top of (Cowboys defensive player), you are wrong." Or are you going to laugh and say "Yup that was good."
When the women who I witnessed get run over (see: hit and flipped over the hood) by a car on Halloween while I was at MU told police officers that she got "run over" by a car while crossing the street before the car drove away, should I have told the police "Woah woah woah, check her body for tire markings! I did not see such a thing, she got hit, not run over!" ::)
My apologies, Chicos. You are correct, Crean has ABSOLUTELY cleaned this program up. NIGHT AND DAY! COMPLETE TURNAROUND! The underage player who was drunk only HIT his teammate with a vehicle, he did NOT run the player over and then put it in reverse and run him over again. What a great program! ::)
I would have them believe that one teammate targeted the other? Uhh, no. I would have them believe that one teammate drunkenly HIT (no, the wheels did not go over the player's body, my bad, didn't know you were that incompetent) his own teammate while he was underage. Which is exactly what happened. But the program is perfect! Not a speck of trouble there, the player only HIT the other player, the tires never ran over the other player. That's common, no issue at all. ::)
And really? The marijuana suspensions came BEFORE one player HIT another player while driving drunkenly and underage? I guess November 1, 2014 is now AFTER May 12, 2015? Only in your "Crean is perfect" world, Chicos. ::)
Unless there are more marijuana suspensions I'm missing within the IU program? If so, maybe IU's program isn't so squeaky clean? ::)
Also, regarding the "rape" at Marquette. You might want some new sources if that's the information you got. Was it a black on on the program? Absolutely. Was it something to be proud of? Absolutely not. Was it something embarrassing? Something that should not have happened? No doubt. Was it rape? HELL NO! Maybe befriend different B1G ADs, because the ones you know don't know jack.
It was a sexual assault. You can argue whether or not you want to define it as rape. This is the same kind of argument as Chicos run over vs. hit by a car.
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It was a sexual assault. You can argue whether or not you want to define it as rape. This is the same kind of argument as Chicos run over vs. hit by a car.
There is a GIANT difference between sexual assault and rape. Again, a black eye on the program? Absolutely (even with it being "just" alleged). Something to be ashamed of? No doubt. Unacceptable? No question about it. Rape? HELL NO!
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There is a GIANT difference between sexual assault and rape. Again, a black eye on the program? Absolutely (even with it being "just" alleged). Something to be ashamed of? No doubt. Unacceptable? No question about it. Rape? HELL NO!
Again, same argument Chicos is making. He didn't run him over, the guy ran in front of the car and got hit by it. He didn't rape her, he sexually assaulted her. You tried to sensationalize the Devin Davis situation while Chicos tried to minimize it. Chicos tried to sensationalize the sexual assault and you tried to minimize it. You two are doing the exact same thing. You just happen to have the more popular position on this forum, bashing TC and protecting MU.
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Not true. The police said Davis was *mostly at fault*... they also cited the then-18 year old Holt for underage drinking and operating a vehicle while drinking under age.
Holt says deep down he knows it was his fault. He feels bad "for what he did." His words. He finds fault in his actions.
The legal system is what it is. It's hardly a good barometer for "who is at fault and who is not"
Absolutely true. NO FAULT for the driver. You can pull the report up yourself.
Of course he feels bad for what happened, he's an 18 year old kid...who wouldn't. If Davis doesn't jump into the car, it doesn't happen.
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Good lord, is Chico's really trying to spin last year's IU team's off court issues. Wow. The man has no shame. He had better be an F2 tornado to spin fast enough on this one.
Nope, not spinning it at all. Kids doing dumb things, got caught, in trouble....should have been in trouble, etc, etc.
That being said, don't lie and say someone was run over when they weren't run over. Is it too hard to ask for some truthiness?
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You're right, it isn't hard. So Knight is to be credited for their run to the National Finals. So he DID, in fact, do something in his last 6 years, in recruiting a roster that made a run to the National Title game, despite you saying over and over and over that Knight did not do anything in his last 6 years.
SOMEBODY has to get some credit for IU's run to the National Title. So thank you for (finally) clearing that up. It wasn't hard, you are right. But, as always, you made it hard.
I gave you the last 20 years....compare that to ANY other blue blood and tell me how it compares.
I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Thanks.
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It was a sexual assault. You can argue whether or not you want to define it as rape. This is the same kind of argument as Chicos run over vs. hit by a car.
I don't know if you and\or Wadesword know this, but in some states Sexual Assault IS Rape and vice versa. They are not treated differently. I'll have to look up what it is in Wisconsin. Another way to put it, rape is always sexual assault, but sexual assault isn't always rape...in some states.
I beg to differ on my comments. When you run OVER someone, the car goes OVER the person. When you run INTO someone, that is different. Even more different when the person runs INTO the car, as the police concluded. Sorry if the facts don't matter to some of you.
Instead we have the fun "take your meds" 6th grade argument. Brilliant.
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Again, same argument Chicos is making. He didn't run him over, the guy ran in front of the car and got hit by it. He didn't rape her, he sexually assaulted her. You tried to sensationalize the Devin Davis situation while Chicos tried to minimize it. Chicos tried to sensationalize the sexual assault and you tried to minimize it. You two are doing the exact same thing. You just happen to have the more popular position on this forum, bashing TC and protecting MU.
Nope, it's not even close to the same argument, and people aren't agreeing with me because I have the more popular opinion.
I readily admit that the incident was a black eye and unacceptable. Chicos, on the other hand, talks about how Crean has turned the IU program around and there are absolutely no problems with the incidents that have happened because the wheels didn't literally run the player over. See the difference? Yeah, it's pretty absurd.
When someone gets hit so hard by a car that they flip up onto the hood and windshield of the car, they got run over by the car.
Rape and sexual assault are 2 very, very, very different things. Neither is acceptable in any situation. But they aren't even remotely close to the same thing (like being "hit" by a car and being "run over" by a car), and the sentencing for the two show that.
I will readily and fully admit that Bert had some major, major problems in the program. How he treated his coworkers within the athletic department but outside of the men's basketball program towards the end of his tenure was embarrassing. How he tried to overpower higher ups in the athletic department was unacceptable. Some of the kids that he tried to get into MU had no business being here. He had some major flaws.
Meanwhile, Chicos continues to talk about the night and day difference there has been since Crean took over IU, but ignores the fact that 2 players were just kicked off the team for drug use, an 18 year old under the influence of alcohol ran over his teammate while driving, a kid transferred out of the program because he wasn't comfortable with the rampant drug use in the program, and, evidently (since Chicos alleges that the drug suspensions came before the player was run over by his teammate), more suspensions because of drugs. But, to Chicos it's all good and Crean has completely cleaned the program up because the tires never went over the player. Hey, to each their own. If that's a clean program in Chicos's opinion, who am I to convince him otherwise?
:o
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1. Sexual assault is bad.
2. TC is a douche, and always will be.
3. Any organization dependent on catering to 18-21 year old males with a sense of entitlement is going to have issues.
4. I can't wait for the season to start.
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Pinching somebody's a55 is sexual assault. Is it also rape?
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Rape and sexual assault are 2 very, very, very different things.
This isn't really true. Sexual Assault is an all encompassing term that includes rape (sexual penetration without permission.)
http://statelaws.findlaw.com/wisconsin-law/wisconsin-rape-and-sexual-assault-laws.html
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Wades
I'm just going to leave at this. Yes, it is night and day difference now then what he inherited. He cleaned up that mess. The drug use levels then and the KIND OF DRUGS used radically different. I'm sorry you don't have those details, some of us do. Plus the academics, etc, etc. Yes, he cleaned up that mess. I don't "continue" to talk about it as you imply. I answered your falsehoods.
Are there issues with that program like just about every other program? Yes. When you deal with 18-22 year old kids, that's going to be the case. I don't care who you are.
I stand by what I said because I have more information than you do about IU's situation. I stand by my comments that IU basketball has been anything but blue blood quality in the last 20 years and the results speak for themselves. Compare to any other blue blood.
And sorry, sexual assault and rape are the same thing in some states, not all. Sexual assault tends to be an umbrella term.
Finally, you are welcome, again, that the Pac 12, Big Ten, Big 12, etc are giving out mandatory 4 year scholarships now in basketball despite you not thinking so.
Good day. Patriots...1 Super Bowl win the last 10 years....classic.
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Wades
I'm just going to leave at this. Yes, it is night and day difference now then what he inherited. He cleaned up that mess. The drug use levels then and the KIND OF DRUGS used radically different. I'm sorry you don't have those details, some of us do. Plus the academics, etc, etc. Yes, he cleaned up that mess. I don't "continue" to talk about it as you imply. I answered your falsehoods.
Are there issues with that program like just about every other program? Yes. When you deal with 18-22 year old kids, that's going to be the case. I don't care who you are.
I stand by what I said because I have more information than you do about IU's situation. I stand by my comments that IU basketball has been anything but blue blood quality in the last 20 years and the results speak for themselves. Compare to any other blue blood.
And sorry, sexual assault and rape are the same thing in some states, not all. Sexual assault tends to be an umbrella term.
Finally, you are welcome, again, that the Pac 12, Big Ten, Big 12, etc are giving out mandatory 4 year scholarships now in basketball despite you not thinking so.
Good day. Patriots...1 Super Bowl win the last 10 years....classic.
Lol. I don't try to spin the facts. I didn't think conferences required 4 year scholarships so I asked for the information. You gave me the information. So thanks and congrats? I don't know what you want me to tell you on that one. But I do know it's a good thing they do require it for the 2 players who Crean kicked off the team for their drug use. It's just unfortunate they didn't get caught using drugs before November 1, 2014, because Crean could've helped keep that hush hush and nobody would've blinked an eye. But when you have an 18 year old drinking alcohol, getting behind the wheel, and running over a teammate you tend to be put under a magnifying glass and those things become tougher to hide.
Yes, 1 Super Bowl in 10 years for the Patriots. What's your point? Haha. Do you really want to look at the last single year to determine things? Okay, 0 Tourneys in the last year for IU. So congrats on that one. Or is every team's window determined differently by you? Of course it is. So for Crean it's the last 4 years, but for IU it's the last 20 years, and for the Patriots it's the last 1 year, and for Bert it's the last 3 years. Lol. You're insane.
Glad to hear that IU players are now using more acceptable illegal drugs in your opinion now than they were before. Crean's done a great job of fixing that issue, obviously.
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Indiana under Knight was a blue blood who did things the right way. They were Duke before Duke reached that status. When Mike Davis ran out of Knight's recruits they floundered. Then they panicked and hired a known cheater who (surprise, surprise) cheated and got caught. Then they panicked again and hired Crean. Even with the tradition and a very fertile recruiting base they are hit and miss on the court, no longer a blue blood. Off the court they're no longer a complete cesspool but they're more squirmy (Indiana Elite, Gary Harris, Hanner Perea, leading the BIG in transfers/Creanings, etc.) than most. And trouble finds their player on a regular basis.
Regarding IU's position as a "blue blood":
When Knight left in 2000 (8 years before TC), IU was a blue blood. In Knight's last 20 years the Hoosier's made the NCAA tournament 19 times. They made the Sweet 16 10 times, the Elite 8 5 times, the Final Four 3 times and won the NCAA championship 2 times. His streak of NCAA tourneys was 15 and counting when he was fired. The one year he missed in his last 20 years he made the NIT finals. His last 4 seasons weren't great, but neither were his 4 seasons from 1977-81. And he left behind a team that made it to the NCAA final game in 2002 with a coach you wouldn't let design an out of bounds play for your CYO team.
So, in 2002, Indiana was UNQUESTIONABLY still a blue blood program. Four years of Mike Davis, two of Kelvin Sampson and six of Tom Crean have ended talk of that distinction. They all deserve some "credit".
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Nvm. Not really worth it.
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Indiana under Knight was a blue blood who did things the right way. They were Duke before Duke reached that status. When Mike Davis ran out of Knight's recruits they floundered. Then they panicked and hired a known cheater who (surprise, surprise) cheated and got caught. Then they panicked again and hired Crean. Even with the tradition and a very fertile recruiting base they are hit and miss on the court, no longer a blue blood. Off the court they're no longer a complete cesspool but they're more squirmy (Indiana Elite, Gary Harris, Hanner Perea, leading the BIG in transfers/Creanings, etc.) than most. And trouble finds their player on a regular basis.
Regarding IU's position as a "blue blood":
When Knight left in 2000 (8 years before TC), IU was a blue blood. In Knight's last 20 years the Hoosier's made the NCAA tournament 19 times. They made the Sweet 16 10 times, the Elite 8 5 times, the Final Four 3 times and won the NCAA championship 2 times. His streak of NCAA tourneys was 15 and counting when he was fired. The one year he missed in his last 20 years he made the NIT finals. His last 4 seasons weren't great, but neither were his 4 seasons from 1977-81. And he left behind a team that made it to the NCAA final game in 2002 with a coach you wouldn't let design an out of bounds play for your CYO team.
So, in 2002, Indiana was UNQUESTIONABLY still a blue blood program. Four years of Mike Davis, two of Kelvin Sampson and six of Tom Crean have ended talk of that distinction. They all deserve some "credit".
This is all fair and sums it up well.
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It's funny watching Marquette fans run in a tizzy defining a subjective phrase like "blue blood" as if the requirements for such a title are agreed upon by all mankind. All this because of a guy who once coached in Milwaukee? Silly.
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Absolutely true. NO FAULT for the driver. You can pull the report up yourself.
Of course he feels bad for what happened, he's an 18 year old kid...who wouldn't. If Davis doesn't jump into the car, it doesn't happen.
You need to pull the report up.
(BTW, no citations for Davis.. multiple citations for Holt...)
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You need to pull the report up.
(BTW, no citations for Davis.. multiple citations for Holt...)
Chico don't need no stinkin' report. He's got Freddie G and TC on speed dial.
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I don't know why everyone is so scared to look at the last 20 years and compare against every other blue blood program. There is no comparison, and that includes the last 6 years of Knight.
One can argue in 2002 that IU was a blue blood, but they certainly weren't elite.
As for Knight running his program the right way....that's somewhat disingenious. The old timers at IU will tell you plenty about the stuff some of his teams were doing and how the Bloomington police department kept guys off the front pages. The world has changed. Social media, etc. It's a different world. Doesn't make him any less a great coach, but people make it sound like the 12 cherubs were on those teams. Hardly. Plenty of drugs, booze, women, etc....get in a room with the old coaching staffs and the stories are funny as hell.
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Women? Now you're telling us your sources claim players were fornicating?
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You need to pull the report up.
(BTW, no citations for Davis.. multiple citations for Holt...)
Correct on the citations. No one is disputing this.
Fault was deemed "pedestrian action" and Davis found at fault.
No fault or blame was assigned to Holt.
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/11/03/crash-report-devin-davis-accident-details-emerge/18414869/
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Women? Now you're telling us your sources claim players were fornicating?
LOL. No, I'm talking about instances involving women like sexual assaults, etc.
If you're going to be raped, just lay back and enjoy it.....ah, what amazing words from the head coach back then. (hopefully I don't need teal for that one as it is obvious they were stupid comments, but he made them)
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LOL. No, I'm talking about instances involving women like sexual assaults, etc.
If you're going to be raped, just lay back and enjoy it.....ah, what amazing words from the head coach back then. (hopefully I don't need teal for that one as it is obvious they were stupid comments, but he made them)
I thought Claytie Williams coined that expression...
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/26/us/texas-candidate-s-comment-about-rape-causes-a-furor.html
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I thought Claytie Williams coined that expression...
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/26/us/texas-candidate-s-comment-about-rape-causes-a-furor.html
Good old Bobby was 2 years ahead of Williams.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/27/sports/knight-is-criticized-over-rape-remark.html
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Good old Bobby was 2 years ahead of Williams.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/27/sports/knight-is-criticized-over-rape-remark.html
I had forgotten about Knight's interview with Connie Chung.
Claytie Williams was a character. Only in Tejas...
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LOL. No, I'm talking about instances involving women like sexual assaults, etc.
If you're going to be raped, just lay back and enjoy it.....ah, what amazing words from the head coach back then. (hopefully I don't need teal for that one as it is obvious they were stupid comments, but he made them)
Knight made a stupid analogy, realized it was stupid immediately and then clarified himself. What does that have to do with how he ran his program at Indiana? Knight had a ton of enemies in the media looking for dirt in his personal and professional life. His anger issues provided plenty, but nobody ever suggested he or his program were squirmy. Other than you, of course.
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I had forgotten about Knight's interview with Connie Chung.
Claytie Williams was a character. Only in Tejas...
Yeah, but did Claytie also shoot his hunting partner (accidentally)?
When I was a grad intern there we got a hold of the outtakes from Bobby's golfing show. He had this show where he would golf with one of the Bloomington Herald hacks, talk about Bobby all the time, hero worship stuff....the outtakes video was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. You would think watching this show that Bobby was a scratch golfer, but the guy was such an enormous duffer and club thrower. He must have chucked 3 to 5 clubs a round. It was great. But he looked nice in his red sweater.
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Kinda like Daly, hey?
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Yeah, but did Claytie also shoot his hunting partner (accidentally)?
Dick Cheney...
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Dick Cheney...
UW alum
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UW alum
Cute... ;)
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Cute... ;)
Their fans deny it, which makes it even cuter.
http://www.uwalumni.com/about/notable-alumni/
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Their fans deny it, which makes it even cuter.
http://www.uwalumni.com/about/notable-alumni/
What do you mean? He's the first guy listed under "Government and Politics."
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Lee Dreyfus...He was the guy with the 'Red Vest'
How did he turn out as a governor?
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Their fans deny it, which makes it even cuter.
http://www.uwalumni.com/about/notable-alumni/
Ahh, I thought you were referring to UW(yoming)
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What do you mean? He's the first guy listed under "Government and Politics."
Exactly. Talk to some of the numbnut Wisconsin fans and they will deny he is an alum....like many people here often do because they don't understand the definition of an alumnus. Of course, they also deny it because he doesn't fit their ideology.
It's kind of funny to drop their own school alumni website to show them that he is, indeed, an alum of UW. ;)
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Exactly. Talk to some of the numbnut Wisconsin fans and they will deny he is an alum....like many people here often do because they don't understand the definition of an alumnus. Of course, they also deny it because he doesn't fit their ideology.
It's kind of funny to drop their own school alumni website to show them that he is, indeed, an alum of UW. ;)
Is this because of his politics?
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Exactly. Talk to some of the numbnut Wisconsin fans and they will deny he is an alum....like many people here often do because they don't understand the definition of an alumnus. Of course, they also deny it because he doesn't fit their ideology.
It's kind of funny to drop their own school alumni website to show them that he is, indeed, an alum of UW. ;)
I have never heard a single UW alum deny that he is a fellow alum of theirs. And I'm from Madison.
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Exactly. Talk to some of the numbnut Wisconsin fans and they will deny he is an alum....like many people here often do because they don't understand the definition of an alumnus. Of course, they also deny it because he doesn't fit their ideology.
It's kind of funny to drop their own school alumni website to show them that he is, indeed, an alum of UW. ;)
I am not sure why they would deny he is an alum. If it is his politics I would point to his actions rather than his words. Cheney applied for 5 or 6 deferments from the draft during the Vietnam Conflict; I would think that sort of behavior would endear him to the Madison faithful.
I believe his serving as Sec Def was one of the greatest hypocrisies of the post-Vietnam era. If he had any scruples or ethics he would have applied for a deferment to be excused from serving as Sec Def. It would have been consistent with his earlier behavior as a draft dodger.
Dick Cheney: One of America's Biggest Chicken Hawks
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I have never heard a single UW alum deny that he is a fellow alum of theirs. And I'm from Madison.
Oh there are plenty....Buckyville has an entire portfolio of them.
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Is this because of his politics?
I suspect partly, and because so many people simply do not understand what the definition of an alumnus is.
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I suspect partly, and because so many people simply do not understand what the definition of an alumnus is.
Let me guess: Cheney was hell bent to get a PhD until the draft ended and then he dropped out of UW-Madison?
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Let me guess: Cheney was hell bent to get a PhD until the draft ended and then he dropped out of UW-Madison?
Do I think he wanted to avoid the war? Yup. Do I think there were other factors? Yup.
It was also his second year of marriage, his wife finished her PhD the year he left and their second child on the way....something tells me $$$ was also involved, as in the need to earn some.
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Let me guess: Cheney was hell bent to get a PhD until the draft ended and then he dropped out of UW-Madison?
Maybe. He turned 26, and therefore ineligible for the draft, in January 1967. He was enrolled in the PhD program through the end of the 67-68 academic year. He left to take a job for Wisconsin Governor Warren Knowles.
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Maybe. He turned 26, and therefore ineligible for the draft, in January 1967. He was enrolled in the PhD program through the end of the 67-68 academic year. He left to take a job for Wisconsin Governor Warren Knowles.
His reason for leaving the Doctoral program is, as you and Chico suggest, likely a combination of career opportunity and earning a paycheck.
What is painfully clear is that he did everything he could to avoid the draft, save for doing a runner for Vancouver. One cannot discount his reasons for entering the Doctoral program. As you know, there was a large uptick in PhDs being awarded during the Vietnam War.