MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Pakuni on July 29, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
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Interesting stat ... 37 percent of top 100 recruits that aren't one-and-done transfer at some point, and that's rising (it was 47 percent for the Class of 2011).
And it starts in high school ... more than half of top 100 recruits attended multiple schools before getting to college.
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/top-100-high-school-recruits-transfer-behavior-study
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I would have liked to see if transfers have any correlation to graduation rates.
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And the reason I would like to see it is because I don't think transfers themselves are a problem, but transfers could lead to academic problems.
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We've taught kids it is ok not to stick it out when the going gets tough, the easy road is just leave for something else. Starts before even high school, at the AAU levels.
We reap what we sow. Izzo, K and others have been saying this for quite some time. It's a generation of people that don't want to tough it out and expect everything to happen just because. Unfortunately it extends into the market place now as well. Entitlement galore.
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I said this in a different thread before i was smart enough to scroll down and see that the conversation was already underway but...
What usually gets lost in the conversation is that the transfer rate of top 100 basketball recruits is absolutely no different than the general 4 year student population. We don't blame the administration when Bobby Q or Suzy Q transfer but we sure blame the coaching staff when a player transfers.
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We don't seem to have a problem when MU accepts transfers. Are Luke Fischer, Andrew Rowsey, Trent Lockett, etc. "entitled?" Or are they seeking an opportunity that better fits them? As naginiF says, the general student population transfers between schools regularly. We actually make it easy for them to do so - much easier than a generation ago.
I guess I don't think 18 year olds (or younger) should be tagged as "soft" because they have reevaluated their situation (academically, athletically, socially) and felt they were better fits elsewhere.
And Coach K doesn't seem to have any trouble accepting transfers (Rodney Hood, Sean Obi). Neither does Tom Izzo (Eron Harris...who is suspended). So don't give me their hypocritical bullsh*t.
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I said this in a different thread before i was smart enough to scroll down and see that the conversation was already underway but...
What usually gets lost in the conversation is that the transfer rate of top 100 basketball recruits is absolutely no different than the general 4 year student population. We don't blame the administration when Bobby Q or Suzy Q transfer but we sure blame the coaching staff when a player transfers.
Is it really apples to apples though? Does the numbers of the 4 year student population include kids that have to transfer for reasons such as no longer being able to afford their current school, or switching their major to one that isn't offered at their current school? My guess is those reasons are very rare among the top 100. Take those out and then let's see how they stack up against each other.
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We don't seem to have a problem when MU accepts transfers. Are Luke Fischer, Andrew Rowsey, Trent Lockett, etc. "entitled?" Or are they seeking an opportunity that better fits them? As naginiF says, the general student population transfers between schools regularly. We actually make it easy for them to do so - much easier than a generation ago.
I guess I don't think 18 year olds (or younger) should be tagged as "soft" because they have reevaluated their situation (academically, athletically, socially) and felt they were better fits elsewhere.
And Coach K doesn't seem to have any trouble accepting transfers (Rodney Hood, Sean Obi). Neither does Tom Izzo (Eron Harris...who is suspended). So don't give me their hypocritical bullsh*t.
Izzo also accepted the transfer of Forbes (can't think of his first name) from Cleveland St. He will probably be a starter this year and was a key player on their final 4 team last year.
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Izzo also accepted the transfer of Forbes (can't think of his first name) from Cleveland St. He will probably be a starter this year and was a key player on their final 4 team last year.
K and Izzo have said point blank they are hypocrites in the process and they will take kids. Let's not pretend that transfers didn't happen 50 years ago either. Their point is the epidemic it is now is because of how the basketball society (as it were) of AAU programs, high schools, etc, has taught kids and parents to shop around. Hard to argue with them, regardless if they have taken transfers. That doesn't change the WHY it is happening.
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K and Izzo have said point blank they are hypocrites in the process and they will take kids. Let's not pretend that transfers didn't happen 50 years ago either. Their point is the epidemic it is now is because of how the basketball society (as it were) of AAU programs, high schools, etc, has taught kids and parents to shop around. Hard to argue with them, regardless if they have taken transfers. That doesn't change the WHY it is happening.
But you fail to say why shopping around is indeed a problem. You instead use vague phrases like "entitlement galore."
And my guess is that it oftentimes *is* a problem. There are undoubtedly kids that transfer because they don't want to tough it out. The coach yells at them too much. They don't want to wait their turn. Next thing you know they have used their eligibility and aren't close to graduating.
But my other guess is that oftentimes it isn't a problem at all. It is Luke Fischer wanting to be closer to home. It is Andrew Rowsey wanting to step up in competition. It is Trent Lockett wanting to spend his one more year on a team that can go deep in the tournament. It is John Dawson wanting to get more playing time by stepping down in competition. To me, none of these are problems.
The discussion at the national level always seem to default to "transfer=bad." Transfers are an "epidemic." Epidemics are bad things right?
But in the end, I have no idea if the sheer number of transfers really is a problem. As I said, for some players it undoubtedly is one. And for some players, it is no problem whatsoever.
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Since when did it become a bad thing for people to "shop around" for the best opportunities to further their life goals?
I'd imagine every one of us over the age of 25 has left one employer to take a job with another that offered what we believed would be a better opportunity. Were we all just entitled brats taking the easy way out? Or does that standard only apply to (mostly minority) athletes?
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Since when did it become a bad thing for people to "shop around" for the best opportunities to further their life goals?
I'd imagine every one of us over the age of 25 has left one employer to take a job with another that offered what we believed would be a better opportunity. Were we all just entitled brats taking the easy way out? Or does that standard only apply to (mostly minority) athletes?
I left my first job out of Marquette after nine months for a very similar job and a marginal increase in pay. The reason? My boss was an a$$hole.
Never once have I regretted that move. It was a better place for me to grow professionally and I was working for a great mentor who I still talk with today. Never once have I reflected back on that and said "boy I wish I would have toughed it out. I was so soft and entitled."
It was their loss.
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And my guess is that it oftentimes *is* a problem. There are undoubtedly kids that transfer because they don't want to tough it out. The coach yells at them too much. They don't want to wait their turn. Next thing you know they have used their eligibility and aren't close to graduating.
Even if these cases, I'm not sure transferring is such a bad thing.
If a kid doesn't see playing time in his future at Program A, but could play 30 minutes per game at lesser Program B, what's wrong with moving on to Program B? I guess I just don't see the desire to play a game to which you've dedicated a large part of your life as some sort character flaw.
I know the answer for some will be "Well, that kid should just work harder and compete for playing time on his team." Maybe that's the case in some instances, but more likely a kid transfers because he knows no matter how hard he works he's not going to beat out the guys ahead of him (and often he's been told this, directly or indirectly, by the coaching staff).
I mean, Kevin Menard and Jamal Ferguson could have lived in the gym at MU, but it was pretty obvious neither were going to win significant PT.
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I left my first job out of Marquette after nine months for a very similar job and a marginal increase in pay. The reason? My boss was an pretty boy.
What exactly does that mean? Serious question.
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Is it inherently bad to shop around? No. However, if you take it too far and you shop around at every whim, every time you didn't get your 18min a game, that ends up creating a personal expectation that you just keep quitting on things and never see them through. Perseverence....are we teaching that anymore?
I see it with millenials at the office every day....current gig and former gig. Fresh out of school and they don't understand why the corner office hasn't been given to them yet. They want a project, it is given to someone else and instead of working harder and proving they deserved it, they're online looking for another gig.
Life is tough, athletics is no different. Transfers has become part of a societal "give it to me now" no need to "pay my dues" process. A coach yells, hurts their feelings....leaving.
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What exactly does that mean? Serious question.
LOL...Scoop corrected my use of "a$$hole" to that.
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Since when did it become a bad thing for people to "shop around" for the best opportunities to further their life goals?
I'd imagine every one of us over the age of 25 has left one employer to take a job with another that offered what we believed would be a better opportunity. Were we all just entitled brats taking the easy way out? Or does that standard only apply to (mostly minority) athletes?
After one year? No. So your example doesn't apply to "every one of us", certainly not with me. Never left a job short of one year like a number of these kids do. Plus, you're also making a false equivalency. Someone leaves a job for a better salary, benefits, commute, whatever. There is no such guarantee with a transfer....it is merely a potential promise of more minutes, or a better team, or whatever. Tangible vs intangible.
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After one year? No. So your example doesn't apply to "every one of us", certainly not with me. Never left a job short of one year like a number of these kids do. Plus, you're also making a false equivalency. Someone leaves a job for a better salary, benefits, commute, whatever. There is no such guarantee with a transfer....it is merely a potential promise of more minutes, or a better team, or whatever. Tangible vs intangible.
Ironic because your entire argument in this thread is intangible. You are unable to specifically address why this is a problem, but completely fall back on the "THESE DAMN KIDS!!!"type of subjective observations.
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LOL...Scoop corrected my use of "a$$hole" to that.
Got it. ;D
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After one year? No. So your example doesn't apply to "every one of us", certainly not with me. Never left a job short of one year like a number of these kids do. Plus, you're also making a false equivalency. Someone leaves a job for a better salary, benefits, commute, whatever. There is no such guarantee with a transfer....it is merely a potential promise of more minutes, or a better team, or whatever. Tangible vs intangible.
One year out of...an overall 40 year working career, right? So 2.5% of an average person's career working full time. Compared to 1 year out of a 4 year college basketball career. Or 25% of a college basketball player's career. For an equivalent comparison to getting a new job after just 1 (or less) years, you'd have to look at how many college basketball players transfer after 1.2 (or less) months at their school. Or you could look at how many people have changed jobs in the first 25% of their working career. So on average roughly 10 years. My guess is you probably changed jobs within the first 10 years out of college.
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Is it really apples to apples though? Does the numbers of the 4 year student population include kids that have to transfer for reasons such as no longer being able to afford their current school, or switching their major to one that isn't offered at their current school? My guess is those reasons are very rare among the top 100. Take those out and then let's see how they stack up against each other.
Fair. I'm assuming that since the 'ave' student doesn't have to think about playing time/getting recruited over and coaching changes the differences in motivations cancel each other out.
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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/college-basketball-coaching-movement-transfer-study
Rate of coaches changing schools is generally higher than the transfer rate. These guys need to suck it up and tough it out and nose to the grindstone and elbow grease.
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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/college-basketball-coaching-movement-transfer-study
Rate of coaches changing schools is generally higher than the transfer rate. These guys need to suck it up and tough it out and nose to the grindstone and elbow grease.
Middle-aged people today are entitled, soft and always looking for the easy way out.
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Frankly, I don't think transferring after a single year is that big a deal. Kids (and programs) realize there isn't a good fit. Similarly, the Lockett and Carlino transfers were post graduate situations, or whatever they call them. The problem, as I see it, are the situations, like Memphis, where there seems to be no rhyme or reason. Blankson was another example. These kids become a major part of teams plans and just bail. It doesn't seem right. Not sure what the solution is...it's an ugly business.
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We've taught kids it is ok not to stick it out when the going gets tough, the easy road is just leave for something else.
Didn't you just jump from Directv while waiting to get the heck out of Cali? ;)
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Get off my lawn, you darn kids. It is the world we live in. Some tried to portray it as a Crean problem, some tried to portray it as a Buzz problem. It is a by-product of the world we live in. I am not a particular fan of it, but I have come to accept it.
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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/college-basketball-coaching-movement-transfer-study
Rate of coaches changing schools is generally higher than the transfer rate. These guys need to suck it up and tough it out and nose to the grindstone and elbow grease.
And coaches changing schools certainly provides impetus to many student-athlete transfers, greatly increasing that "problem".
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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/college-basketball-coaching-movement-transfer-study
Rate of coaches changing schools is generally higher than the transfer rate. These guys need to suck it up and tough it out and nose to the grindstone and elbow grease.
It says coaching turnover, how many of those coaches were fired and thus turned over, vs how many chose to move to a different opportunity?
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Ironic because your entire argument in this thread is intangible. You are unable to specifically address why this is a problem, but completely fall back on the "THESE DAMN KIDS!!!"type of subjective observations.
It's a problem because we have decided to put forth kids that don't understand the concept of perseverance. We don't teach kids to fight through adversity.
It's cultural. "The culture is being created before they get to college. If they're not playing as much as they want in high school, they transfer to a different high school. If they're not playing as much as they want in AAU, they go to a different AAU team. It's a learned behavior." - Dwayne Stephens
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One year out of...an overall 40 year working career, right? So 2.5% of an average person's career working full time. Compared to 1 year out of a 4 year college basketball career. Or 25% of a college basketball player's career. For an equivalent comparison to getting a new job after just 1 (or less) years, you'd have to look at how many college basketball players transfer after 1.2 (or less) months at their school. Or you could look at how many people have changed jobs in the first 25% of their working career. So on average roughly 10 years. My guess is you probably changed jobs within the first 10 years out of college.
Hey, I wasn't the one that made the analogy, I answered the analogy....which was a poor analogy to begin with. Take it up with him.
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Didn't you just jump from Directv while waiting to get the heck out of Cali? ;)
"jump"....nope
15 years there, through ups and downs....then went to a different company that worked with them in anticipation of the merger. It's complicated because of the merger stuff that was going on, but by moving over it allowed progress work that would not get done if stayed because of how long transactions take to complete.
Let's just say in the end all the pieces of the puzzle will be put back together.
No jumping at all, call it doing much of the same work with a different business card that will ultimately become the same business card again.
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how about the transfer who was "promised" this and that, then he either doesn't perform up to the coaches standards, or was snow-jobbed into coming?
homesick
i can't imagine many transfer because of their majors
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Middle-aged WHITE people today are entitled, soft and always looking for the easy way out.
Used to be the white man could get a fair shake!
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Used to be the white man could get a fair shake!
Any man still can. it just takes finding the right woman.
"She was a fast machine she kept her motor clean
She was the best damn woman that I ever seen
She had the sightless eyes telling me no lies
Knocking me out with those American thighs
Taking more than her share
Had me fighting for air
She told me to come but I was already there
Cause the walls start shaking
The earth was quaking
My mind was aching
And we were making it
And you shook me all night long
Yeah you shook me all night long"
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I am for capitalism in the college setting.
Coaches should be able to leave for greener pastures (or whatever reason) whenever they want. Student-athletes should be able to transfer whenever they want without having to sit out any time. Cheerleaders should be able to transfer. Professors should be able to change schools whenever they want. Administrators should be able to leave at their whim. Engineering majors should be able to transfer. Etc, etc, etc.
And yet, on that list I just gave (including the etceteras), only the student-athletes aren't allowed to ply their trade immediately at their new destinations.
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I am for capitalism in the college setting.
Coaches should be able to leave for greener pastures (or whatever reason) whenever they want. Student-athletes should be able to transfer whenever they want without having to sit out any time. Cheerleaders should be able to transfer. Professors should be able to change schools whenever they want. Administrators should be able to leave at their whim. Engineering majors should be able to transfer. Etc, etc, etc.
And yet, on that list I just gave (including the etceteras), only the student-athletes aren't allowed to ply their trade immediately at their new destinations.
Not true. The coaches aren't either, unless they buy their way out.
So, if we want to treat an apples to apples comparison, I'm all for it. You pay your way out of your scholarship to transfer....just like the coach does. A better way to put it, there is a penalty for the coach to leave, a financial consideration. Apply that to players, since we're making this comparison.
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how about the transfer who was "promised" this and that, then he either doesn't perform up to the coaches standards, or was snow-jobbed into coming?
homesick
i can't imagine many transfer because of their majors
That part isn't contemplated by the "free agent" folks here. It's only the upside, never the downside.
I would propose doing this just like the US Military academies. My son has an interest, so we're going through the details. Essentially, the US Gov't will pay for you to attend their school as long as you agree to a commitment after your education is complete. IF, you leave during after your Sophomore year, you must pay back the US gov't. Afterall, they have invested heavily into you.
MU or any other athletic program is investing heavily into that student athlete in return that you stay and matriculate. If you decide to leave, then MU's investment should be reimbursed. Now, I don't think it should be fully reimbursed because MU probably gained some benefit depending on the player (more for the star than the guy that never gets off the bench).
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Not true. The coaches aren't either, unless they buy their way out.
So, if we want to treat an apples to apples comparison, I'm all for it. You pay your way out of your scholarship to transfer....just like the coach does. A better way to put it, there is a penalty for the coach to leave, a financial consideration. Apply that to players, since we're making this comparison.
Well, first you'd have to give the players guaranteed contracts to even start to make an apples-for-apples comparison.
It really only would be apples-for-apples if the coach had to sit out a year.
Heck, even the vast majority of coaches who bring down NCAA sanctions on one school don't have to sit out a year before moving right along to another institution.
But that's OK. Keep defending the Overdog.
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Not true. The coaches aren't either, unless they buy their way out.
So, if we want to treat an apples to apples comparison, I'm all for it. You pay your way out of your scholarship to transfer....just like the coach does. A better way to put it, there is a penalty for the coach to leave, a financial consideration. Apply that to players, since we're making this comparison.
Plus, and i'm far from an expert, but a professor with tenure has certain commitments they've made to the University/department which have to hinder 'free' movement.
**not defending the current transfer rules**
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Well, first you'd have to give the players guaranteed contracts to even start to make an apples-for-apples comparison.
It really only would be apples-for-apples if the coach had to sit out a year.
Heck, even the vast majority of coaches who bring down NCAA sanctions on one school don't have to sit out a year before moving right along to another institution.
But that's OK. Keep defending the Overdog.
You mean guaranteed 4 year rides....like many schools and conferences are doing right now?
;D
(http://www.runaroundtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1363367363.jpg)
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You mean guaranteed 4 year rides....like many schools and conferences are doing right now?
;D
(http://www.runaroundtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1363367363.jpg)
How many athletes have signed 4 year scholarships in men's NCAA D1 basketball?
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How many athletes have signed 4 year scholarships in men's NCAA D1 basketball?
I have no idea the number.
It is required now at Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC and ACC schools. Some schools within those conferences started doing this a number of years ago, but now the entire conferences are. MU, by the way, voted NOT to do this at NCAA meetings a few years ago. Perhaps we have changed our tune or will in the future.
Those scholarships cannot be repealed or reduced as long as the student athlete remains in good standing (i.e. isn't getting arrested, flunking out of school, etc)
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I have no idea the number.
It is required now at Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC and ACC schools. Some schools within those conferences started doing this a number of years ago, but now the entire conferences are. MU, by the way, voted NOT to do this at NCAA meetings a few years ago. Perhaps we have changed our tune or will in the future.
Those scholarships cannot be repealed or reduced as long as the student athlete remains in good standing (i.e. isn't getting arrested, flunking out of school, etc)
Huh? B1G, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC, and ACC schools are required to give 4 year, not 1 year, athletic scholarships to men's basketball players? I don't think so.
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Huh? B1G, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC, and ACC schools are required to give 4 year, not 1 year, athletic scholarships to men's basketball players? I don't think so.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/sports/pac-12-guarantees-4-year-scholarships.html?_r=0
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2014/10/08/big-ten-guarantee-year-scholarships-sports/16927531/
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11964788/big-12-cover-full-cost-student-athlete-attendance-offer-multiyear-scholarships
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2015-01-17/power-5-ncaa-schools-vote-new-scholarship-concussion-proposals-autonomy
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I have no idea the number.
It is required now at Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC and ACC schools. Some schools within those conferences started doing this a number of years ago, but now the entire conferences are. MU, by the way, voted NOT to do this at NCAA meetings a few years ago. Perhaps we have changed our tune or will in the future.
Those scholarships cannot be repealed or reduced as long as the student athlete remains in good standing (i.e. isn't getting arrested, flunking out of school, etc)
As of 2013, the number was less than 10% of ALL athletes. Of those that had it, next to none were college basketball players.
If players are given a multi-year scholarship and leave before it is over, I think just about everyone agrees they should have to sit. The argument is for those who only have 1 year scholarships or have completed their two or three year scholarship. They are expired contracts, the athletes shouldn't be punished for searching elsewhere.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/sports/pac-12-guarantees-4-year-scholarships.html?_r=0
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2014/10/08/big-ten-guarantee-year-scholarships-sports/16927531/
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11964788/big-12-cover-full-cost-student-athlete-attendance-offer-multiyear-scholarships
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2015-01-17/power-5-ncaa-schools-vote-new-scholarship-concussion-proposals-autonomy
You're smarter than this. The Power 5 guaranteed that every school would would offer multiyear scholarships in every sport. They didn't guarentee that every student athlete would get one. Know how many basketball players are getting offered multiyear scholarships? Next to zero. Coaches don't want to take the risk of losing a scholarship if a player doesn't work out.
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I have no idea the number.
It is required now at Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12, SEC and ACC schools. Some schools within those conferences started doing this a number of years ago, but now the entire conferences are. MU, by the way, voted NOT to do this at NCAA meetings a few years ago. Perhaps we have changed our tune or will in the future.
Those scholarships cannot be repealed or reduced as long as the student athlete remains in good standing (i.e. isn't getting arrested, flunking out of school, etc)
I'm sure that Marquette has changed its position. First, a different university president and a different athletic director were running things, but mostly because the vote a few years ago was about whether NCAA Division I as a whole was going to be allowed to offer such scholarships prior to the power five conferences having the power to make such decisions for themselves. Now that those schools have that ability and have authorized such scholarships, Marquette - and for that matter the Big East - will also offer such scholarships as is necessary to remain competitive in the recruiting marketplace.
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You're smarter than this. The Power 5 guaranteed that every school would would offer multiyear scholarships in every sport. They didn't guarentee that every student athlete would get one. Know how many basketball players are getting offered multiyear scholarships? Next to zero. Coaches don't want to take the risk of losing a scholarship if a player doesn't work out.
Some schools are requiring it since 2012 in those conferences. Feel free to prove me wrong, it is my understanding since the new rules were adopted that they will be required to offer 4 year guarantees. If the player leaves to go pro, no skin off their back. If he transfers, no skin off their back. If he quits, the scholarship shifts to a non athletic grant in aid, so it doesn't impact scholarship limits...no skin off their back.
Again, this is my understanding. I'll confirm today with a very good friend who is an AD at a Big 12 school. You may be right, but that is not my understanding of the recent changes.
EDIT: Effective immediately, the Big Ten will ensure that none of its recruited athletes — in any sport — can lose their financial aid because of injury, poor play or coaches’ judgment.
Jim Delany, the league’s commissioner, said, “To make a four-year commitment and give student-athletes the security, it’s the right thing to do.”
EDIT 2: Pac-12 "All Athletic scholarships will be guaranteed for four years for student-athletes in all sports."
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As of 2013, the number was less than 10% of ALL athletes. Of those that had it, next to none were college basketball players.
If players are given a multi-year scholarship and leave before it is over, I think just about everyone agrees they should have to sit. The argument is for those who only have 1 year scholarships or have completed their two or three year scholarship. They are expired contracts, the athletes shouldn't be punished for searching elsewhere.
Yes, but the rules changed in 2014.
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Yes, but the rules changed in 2014.
That's a good thing! Please provide more facts -- and about schools that aren't in the Big 5 -- as you get them.
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Chicos,
Reading the articles you posted, it appears I was mistaken. I truly apologize. I had a different understanding of the Power 5s use of 4 year scholarships. I will continue to look into it further.
I absolutely agree that if a player attempts to transfer before the end of a multiyear scholarship, than that player should be penalized (i.e. sitting out for a year). However, there are still hundreds of players who are on 1 year renewable scholarships. I still hold that the ethical thing to do for these players is letting them transfer at the end of the season without penalty. I also understand why the NCAA doesn't do this and how it could radically change things. Personally, I feel the game would evolve to accommodate for increased transfers (or maybe more institutions would start offering multi-year scholarships)
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No problem TAMU. Actually you were right for SEC.
I confirmed through an AD at a SEC school that SEC has discretion, Big 12,Big 10, Pac 12 it is a requirement. He wasn't sure about ACC but was checking.
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That's a good thing! Please provide more facts -- and about schools that aren't in the Big 5 -- as you get them.
Sure, but I'd ask that you do the same about coaches and their movement from those non Big 5 conferences as well. Let's not pretend all those coaches are like Fortune 500 CEOs, when there are 248K other CEOs. Many of those coaches are from mid to low level schools, and have to pay the buyouts on their own, don't exactly leave with the same verocity that people like to focus on when analyzing the top of the food chain. I'd also point out with lower and mid level schools players leaving after those schools developed those kids...very tough for those programs. The kids should have to sit out.
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Sure, but I'd ask that you do the same about coaches and their movement from those non Big 5 conferences as well. Let's not pretend all those coaches are like Fortune 500 CEOs, when there are 248K other CEOs. Many of those coaches are from mid to low level schools, and have to pay the buyouts on their own, don't exactly leave with the same verocity that people like to focus on when analyzing the top of the food chain. I'd also point out with lower and mid level schools players leaving after those schools developed those kids...very tough for those programs. The kids should have to sit out.
I highly doubt that any low major coaches have any insane buyout clauses. The only coaches who have that are the coaches who will have their buyout clauses bought out by the school that is hiring them. It's silly to think that buyout clauses are some unjust think weighing coaches down and stopping them from moving into better situations. If it's really that big of a deal, then the coach should make sure his agent negotiates a contract that doesn't have a buyout clause, or negotiates with the hiring school that they are the ones to buy out his contract for him.
You're completely overdramatizing this. Comparing coaches who get paid millions of dollars and have their new employer pay their buyout clauses for them to student athletes who don't make a single penny having to pay back $30K/year to the school they are transferring out of is ludicrous even by your standards.
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I highly doubt that any low major coaches have any insane buyout clauses. The only coaches who have that are the coaches who will have their buyout clauses bought out by the school that is hiring them. It's silly to think that buyout clauses are some unjust think weighing coaches down and stopping them from moving into better situations. If it's really that big of a deal, then the coach should make sure his agent negotiates a contract that doesn't have a buyout clause, or negotiates with the hiring school that they are the ones to buy out his contract for him.
You're completely overdramatizing this. Comparing coaches who get paid millions of dollars and have their new employer pay their buyout clauses for them to student athletes who don't make a single penny having to pay back $30K/year to the school they are transferring out of is ludicrous even by your standards.
First off, you are welcome on the information about 4 year scholarships....no need to apologize or thank me. :P
Second, you are correct that they don't have "insane" buyouts, nor did I claim that. HOWEVER, what typically happens at the higher end is the buying school or booster, etc, can help pay off the buyout...subsidize it as it were. As you stated. That doesn't happen at the lower level as much, plus those guys aren't making as much so the buyouts aren't going to be as high...it's often relative and propotional, but it matters in the context of proportinality.
My point is that too many of you focus on the 1% or the 5% and not on what's happening across DI or even across all sports. It's often the corner case scenario of some stud football or basketball player, but for some reason we ignore the literally 1000's of others or wish to cram that corner case scenario and extrapolate it on everyone else. It's the same mistake when focusing on CEO pay here..the focus is on the extreme scale, not what is happening to the 90%+. Why the focus on the outliers?
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In this sport, it's more than 5%. The upper level at the minimum includes all the P5 schools and the Big East. So that's what, 78/351 schools? Then figure you can add in the Mountain West, AAC, and probably 15-20 other schools (Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc) that try to operate like the big boys.
The schools that will pay buyouts probably amounts to around 30-35%. Still not a majority, but also not a 5% outlier. In football, it's an even higher percentage.
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In this sport, it's more than 5%. The upper level at the minimum includes all the P5 schools and the Big East. So that's what, 78/351 schools? Then figure you can add in the Mountain West, AAC, and probably 15-20 other schools (Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc) that try to operate like the big boys.
The schools that will pay buyouts probably amounts to around 30-35%. Still not a majority, but also not a 5% outlier. In football, it's an even higher percentage.
My 5% reference had to do with the typical goofiness talked about here and elsewhere as it relates to student athletes. Paying them, etc. Less than 1% make it to the NBA. Less than 2% of football players make it to the NFL, but the changes people want often focus on that tiny sliver, or the upper crust pf prgrams and not the vast majority.
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I hadn't seen this posted anywhere else:
Chris Obekpa from St. John's has transferred to UNLV. The Rebels are loaded with talent for next season and I think if they don't make the NCAA Tourney coach Dave Rice will be shown the door. Obekpa will have to sit out the upcoming season as a transfer.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/unlv-rebels/basketball/former-st-johns-center-transferring-unlv
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Sure, but I'd ask that you do the same about coaches and their movement from those non Big 5 conferences as well. Let's not pretend all those coaches are like Fortune 500 CEOs, when there are 248K other CEOs. Many of those coaches are from mid to low level schools, and have to pay the buyouts on their own, don't exactly leave with the same verocity that people like to focus on when analyzing the top of the food chain. I'd also point out with lower and mid level schools players leaving after those schools developed those kids...very tough for those programs. The kids should have to sit out.
We'll have to disagree like gentlemen on that part.
Crazy thing is, nobody is asking either of us to help formulate policy. The nerve!
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We'll have to disagree like gentlemen on that part.
Crazy thing is, nobody is asking either of us to help formulate policy. The nerve!
Not currently at least. Fortunately the AD's I know are in 100% agreement with my position (or I'm in 100% agreement with theirs, however you wish to state it) so I'm not too worried about it changing any time soon. The chaos it would create would literally destroy some team's seasons which could in turn put a program back a number of years.
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I hadn't seen this posted anywhere else:
Chris Obekpa from St. John's has transferred to UNLV. The Rebels are loaded with talent for next season and I think if they don't make the NCAA Tourney coach Dave Rice will be shown the door. Obekpa will have to sit out the upcoming season as a transfer.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/unlv-rebels/basketball/former-st-johns-center-transferring-unlv
Not the smartest move for Obekpa from a playing time standpoint.