MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on March 30, 2015, 07:28:17 AM
-
If you had been asked before the season to name the top 5 coaches in college basketball, how many of you would have had the final 4 coaches in your top 5? Probably quite a Few. (ha, unfortunate Gonzaga pun) Maybe Donovan, Wright, Sean Miller, Matta (chico would have included Crean, of course), but these 4 guys would have been consistently in the top 5.
My point? Good coaching matters. It is my fervent hope that Wojo can develop.
-
So does consistency and continuity in recruitng and program philosophy.
-
If you had been asked before the season to name the top 5 coaches in college basketball, how many of you would have had the final 4 coaches in your top 5? Probably quite a Few. (ha, unfortunate Gonzaga pun) Maybe Donovan, Wright, Sean Miller, Matta (chico would have included Crean, of course), but these 4 guys would have been consistently in the top 5.
My point? Good coaching matters. It is my fervent hope that Wojo can develop.
Bill self would get some love from dome as would Roy Williams but the question is do they get enough out of their talent. Did you just miss Pitino? I don't see Jay alright up there. No Sweet Sixteen since 2009 is not that impressive. Miller, Donovan, and Matta for sure. Tony Bennett is right there as well. He will get mentioned after one deep run into the tourney
-
I'd still have K number one, even though I don't expect him to cut down the nets. Calipari, Izzo, and Self would be there too. After that, tough to pick who else is there. Donovan, Roy, Pitino all have to get a mention.
One question I was pondering the other day...who now is the best coach to never make a Final Four?
Many would say Bennett, but I'd probably give the nod to Mike Brey. He's kept the Irish relevant for a long time in some very tough conferences, and shown the ability to adjust his playing style to the personnel he has. I may hate Notre Dame, but Brey definitely has my respect.
-
I'd still have K number one, even though I don't expect him to cut down the nets. Calipari, Izzo, and Self would be there too. After that, tough to pick who else is there. Donovan, Roy, Pitino all have to get a mention.
One question I was pondering the other day...who now is the best coach to never make a Final Four?
Many would say Bennett, but I'd probably give the nod to Mike Brey. He's kept the Irish relevant for a long time in some very tough conferences, and shown the ability to adjust his playing style to the personnel he has. I may hate Notre Dame, but Brey definitely has my respect.
Here is a pretty good listing of the current top 10 to not have made final 4 ...Sean Miller should've been there by now
http://athlonsports.com/college-basketball/college-basketballs-10-best-coaches-who-have-never-been-final-four
On the "all time" list I was most surprised to see that neither Lefty Drisell, nor John Chaney ever graced a final four
http://www.lostlettermen.com/article/top-10-coaches-never-to-reach-final-four
-
I wouldn't include Sean Miller in that group yet. He's good, but he has to take that next step for me to include him among the top of the best coaches around. My thoughts:
1. Coach K
2. Pitino
3. Izzo
4. Calipari
5. Self
6. Ryan
7. Williams
8. Donovan
9. Matta
10. Belein/Miller
-
Sorry guys, I think Bo Ryan is the best coach in the country. He really is.
More with less than anyone else around.
Guy should be national coach of the year this year.
And I fervently HATE Becky Badger. But reality is reality. We would adore him if he was a Warrior.
-
Sorry guys, I think Bo Ryan is the best coach in the country. He really is.
More with less than anyone else around.
Guy should be national coach of the year this year.
And I fervently HATE Becky Badger. But reality is reality. We would adore him if he was a Warrior.
You have to include recruiting as part of the equation in the college game.
-
I did forget about Pitino. Personally, I don't know that I would put Bo in the top 5, but he might be 6. And I couldn't blame anyone who did put him in their top 5.
1. K
2. Izzo
3. Cal
4. Pitino
5. Self
6. Bo
7. Donovan
-
Boeheim needs to be in the conversation as well. While I do believe Bo is a good coach I wouldn't put him that high. I give him credit for back to back final fours but they have also been upset a lot in the tournament. I would put anyone with one championship ahead of him and no way is he ahead of Williams who has two championships and how many final fours?
-
Sorry guys, I think Bo Ryan is the best coach in the country. He really is.
More with less than anyone else around.
Guy should be national coach of the year this year.
And I fervently HATE Becky Badger. But reality is reality. We would adore him if he was a Warrior.
"Doing more with less" is not a valid argument for a Big 10 school.
-
So does consistency and continuity in recruitng and program philosophy.
This IS coaching, or at least a major (probably THE major) part of it.
Don't try to separate the two.
Bo is an outstanding recruiter in his own way, even if he isn't landing the kind of studs the others guys do. He plays a system and he recruits solid players whom he projects can become very good players within the system.
That leads to consistently decent recruiting, and sometimes (quite often, in fact) better than that. It also leads to kids staying 4 years, which feeds on itself in keeping a program viable.
Recruiting classes like those leading to this Bucky team and the 2005 Illinois team are almost ideal -- lots of good players who can be coached to become very good or even great but who aren't so hyped that they are selfish prima donnas or that they leave the program after 1 or 2 years. The recruiting classes leading to the 2013 Marquette team fit that profile, too.
Bo has a history of stringing together class after class of these kinds of kids, and as much as I dislike Bucky, I admire that.
-
Sorry guys, I think Bo Ryan is the best coach in the country. He really is.
More with less than anyone else around.
Guy should be national coach of the year this year.
And I fervently HATE Becky Badger. But reality is reality. We would adore him if he was a Warrior.
I don't disagree Bo is a great coach, but part of the job is not being in the position of having "less" to do "more" with.
If he could recruit as well as our most recent 3 MU coaches, he'd have had multiple NCs by now.
-
I did forget about Pitino. Personally, I don't know that I would put Bo in the top 5, but he might be 6. And I couldn't blame anyone who did put him in their top 5.
1. K
2. Izzo
3. Cal
4. Pitino
5. Self
6. Bo
7. Donovan
Bo ahead of Donovan as well as Roy Williams? I don't think Bo cracks the top 10
-
I don't think Bo cracks the top 10
You can name 10 other coaches who are 14-for-14 in making it to the NCAAs, capped off by two straight Final Four appearances? OK.
Jeesh ... I can't believe I'm lobbying for the Grinch ... but fair is fair.
-
You can name 10 other coaches who are 14-for-14 in making it to the NCAAs, capped off by two straight Final Four appearances? OK.
Jeesh ... I can't believe I'm lobbying for the Grinch ... but fair is fair.
Back to back NCAA championships, a runner up and a final four > back to back final fours. 14 for 14 is impressive but I'd take 15/19 with Donovan's stats any day before Bo's. Plus Donovan gives Florida fans people to cheer for in the pros to.
-
With actual stats:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/tom-izzo-is-the-best-coach-in-modern-ncaa-tournament-history-by-far/
-
You can name 10 other coaches who are 14-for-14 in making it to the NCAAs, capped off by two straight Final Four appearances? OK.
Jeesh ... I can't believe I'm lobbying for the Grinch ... but fair is fair.
Zero national championships. Zeeeero.
1NC > 0NCs every time.
Of non-championship coaches, Bo is favorable. This list is like a "which doesn't belong" list.
1. K - national champion
2. Izzo - national champion
3. Cal - national champion
4. Pitino - national champion
5. Self - national champion
6. Bo - NOPE!
7. Donovan - national champion
-
IMO Pitino is the best all around coach and has been for quite some time. Bo is a great coach and think he is top 10 for sure. I would put Cal, Coach K, Donovan and Izzo in my top five with Pitino. Self and Williams are great coaches because of where they are and not by overall success.
-
IMO Pitino is the best all around coach and has been for quite some time. Bo is a great coach and think he is top 10 for sure. I would put Cal, Coach K, Donovan and Izzo in my top five with Pitino. Self and Williams are great coaches because of where they are and not by overall success.
Why are you short changing Roy?
25 NCAA tournaments in 27 years (Kansas was ineligible his first year)
7 Final Fours (4 at Kansas, 3 at UNC)
And 2 NC's
-
Bo Ryan "Doing more with less" is one of the great myths. Kaminsky, Dekker and Hayes are all future NBA players. Credit Bo with developing Kaminsky and evaluating Nigel Hayes better than other coaches. Bo gets his teams to play defense and not turn the ball over. But it took until the last two years to break through from the very good to great. The difference? Better offensive talent that can actually outscore people and a new strength & conditioning coach that lead to stronger, more athletic, better conditioned players. Bo's done great but his best teams have also been the most talented.
-
Zero national championships. Zeeeero.
1NC > 0NCs every time.
Of non-championship coaches, Bo is favorable. This list is like a "which doesn't belong" list.
1. K - national champion
2. Izzo - national champion
3. Cal - national champion
4. Pitino - national champion
5. Self - national champion
6. Bo - NOPE!
7. Donovan - national champion
OK. I don't argue with any of the other 6 being ahead of Bo. But you said he doesn't crack the top 10. Your words, not mine.
Maybe you're right. All I'd like is for you to back up your very confident statement that he's on the outside looking in. Please provide your top-10, Bo-free list.
-
IMO Pitino is the best all around coach and has been for quite some time. Bo is a great coach and think he is top 10 for sure. I would put Cal, Coach K, Donovan and Izzo in my top five with Pitino. Self and Williams are great coaches because of where they are and not by overall success.
So Williams and Self don't get credit because high-level success is a given at blue blood programs? Tell B Gillespie that.
Shouldn't Coach K not get credit for his success after Duke was built into the program it is? He basically has been coasting since 1991.
-
No one mentioned Larry Brown. Weird.
-
I thought about Larry Brown. He has won almost everywhere he has gone. For me, his vagabond nature as well as going 25 years between college coaching gigs eliminates him.
-
IMO Pitino is the best all around coach and has been for quite some time. Bo is a great coach and think he is top 10 for sure. I would put Cal, Coach K, Donovan and Izzo in my top five with Pitino. Self and Williams are great coaches because of where they are and not by overall success.
So Self and Williams are downgraded because of "where they are," but Calipari and Pitino aren't? Bill Self won a national championship at Kansas five years after Williams left. (And lost another 3 years after that.)
Williams was coming off the end of the Guthridge and Doherty regimes and built the program back up.
-
I thought about Larry Brown. He has won almost everywhere he has gone. For me, his vagabond nature as well as going 25 years between college coaching gigs eliminates him.
And left his last two stops on probation.
-
And left his last two stops on probation.
Yeah, that too. However, doesn't tossing that into the equation impact Calipari's ranking?
-
Yeah, that too. However, doesn't tossing that into the equation impact Calipari's ranking?
If he leaves Kentucky in the same boat, yes...
-
OK. I don't argue with any of the other 6 being ahead of Bo. But you said he doesn't crack the top 10. Your words, not mine.
Maybe you're right. All I'd like is for you to back up your very confident statement that he's on the outside looking in. Please provide your top-10, Bo-free list.
Here you go... order could be debated for a few of these but Bo doesn't crack into this group.
1. Coach K
2. Pitino
3. Izzo
4. Donovan
5. Calipari
6. R. Williams
7. Bill Self
8. Larry Brown
9. Jim Boeheim
10. Bob Huggins
In addition I am docking Bo to at least 12th place for raising such a loser daughter. That's poor player development.
-
No one has mentioned Ollie yet either, or are we calling his NC Calhoun's 4th? :)
-
Larry Brown can flat out coach and I have always watched his college gigs closely. He is high on my list of all time great coaches.
-
Larry Brown can flat out coach and I have always watched his college gigs closely. He is high on my list of all time great coaches.
I also think Steve Fisher is highly underrated. Granted there were some violations at Michigan but he has completely rebuilt the San Diego St Program, only 3 NCAA appearances before he arrived and no wins, 8 since he has been there and 2 sweet 16's.
-
Here you go... order could be debated for a few of these but Bo doesn't crack into this group.
1. Coach K
2. Pitino
3. Izzo
4. Donovan
5. Calipari
6. R. Williams
7. Bill Self
8. Larry Brown
9. Jim Boeheim
10. Bob Huggins
In addition I am docking Bo to at least 12th place for raising such a loser daughter. That's poor player development.
Oooh ... so close.
Even if I give you Brown and Boeheim on a list of current top-10 coaches, and I'm not sure I do, on what do you base Huggy Bear being ranked higher than Bo?
In both 2013 and 2014, Huggy missed the Dance entirely. He has made 2 Final Fours, but one was 23 years ago.
In the 14 years since Bo became a high-major coach ...
BO: 2 FF, 1 E8, 4 S16, 14 NCAA tourney appearances, 4 conf titles.
HUGGY: 1 FF, 0 E8, 2 S16, 10 NCAA tourneys, 2 conf titles (last in 2004).
Truly a reach to try to back up your claim.
-
Oooh ... so close.
Even if I give you Brown and Boeheim on a list of current top-10 coaches, and I'm not sure I do, on what do you base Huggy Bear being ranked higher than Bo?
In both 2013 and 2014, Huggy missed the Dance entirely. He has made 2 Final Fours, but one was 23 years ago.
In the 14 years since Bo became a high-major coach ...
BO: 2 FF, 1 E8, 4 S16, 14 NCAA tourney appearances, 4 conf titles.
HUGGY: 1 FF, 0 E8, 2 S16, 10 NCAA tourneys, 2 conf titles (last in 2004).
Truly a reach to try to back up your claim.
In my opinion Huggy > Bo because of his success at multiple programs and in multiple conferences. He's reached FFs both early and late in his career. Bo's Final Fours both come during the era of Fast & Furious 6.
Not sure how Brown & Boeheim aren't current top tens? Brown has an NC and rebuilt a crap SMU program. Boeheim was in the Final Four less than four years ago.
EDIT: I'll add Howland ahead of Bo once he lands his next job.
-
Brad Stevens was well on his way to getting included in that conversation with two title game appearances by a Horizon League team but bolted for the NBA too early.
-
By the way, I'm not a Bo hater. He is an excellent coach. But similar to how UW's being a good school doesn't mean it's in line with Harvard, let's not get carried away.
-
By the way, I'm not a Bo hater. He is an excellent coach. But similar to how UW's being a good school doesn't mean it's in line with Harvard, let's not get carried away.
The real question is would Bo still be as successful if Bennett hadn't already put in all the leg work in rebuilding the program. Bo has done a great job running with that momentum from the 2000 Final Four but could of he actually built the program up himself as Pitino did in his rebuilds at Louisville and Kentucky, Coach K at Duke, and Donovan at Florida.
-
In my opinion Huggy > Bo because of his success at multiple programs and in multiple conferences. He's reached FFs both early and late in his career. Bo's Final Fours both come during the era of Fast & Furious 6.
Not sure how Brown & Boeheim aren't current top tens? Brown has an NC and rebuilt a crap SMU program. Boeheim was in the Final Four less than four years ago.
EDIT: I'll add Howland ahead of Bo once he lands his next job.
So Bo gets penalized for staying where he is while Huggy gets extra points for wandering? Whatevs. We will have to disagree. I don't even like Bo but I believe in giving credit where it's due.
-
The real question is would Bo still be as successful if Bennett hadn't already put in all the leg work in rebuilding the program. Bo has done a great job running with that momentum from the 2000 Final Four but could of he actually built the program up himself as Pitino did in his rebuilds at Louisville and Kentucky, Coach K at Duke, and Donovan at Florida.
For the record Coach K inherited a program two years removed from the championship game and had made the tournament the year before. It's not like he rebuilt anything. Not taking away his accomplishments but Duke was already a strong program.
-
I did forget about Pitino. Personally, I don't know that I would put Bo in the top 5, but he might be 6. And I couldn't blame anyone who did put him in their top 5.
1. K
1a. Dave Leitao
2. Izzo
3. Cal
4. Pitino
5. Self
6. Bo
7. Donovan
-
For the record Coach K inherited a program two years removed from the championship game and had made the tournament the year before. It's not like he rebuilt anything. Not taking away his accomplishments but Duke was already a strong program.
To be fair, the only program that has been built "from nothing or almost nothing" run by a coach on the list is Florida (I think can't recall them being any good). Louisville, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke and Wisconsin had either current momentum or legacy momentum to build from. Hell even Michigan State was something before Izzo (Judd). If Brad Stevens were still in college, he would have to be top 3 on this list because he built something out of nothing, and it's still going.
A lot of credit goes to the coach, but if he has a platform it is much easier to get to the promised land. Which is why Bo can't be top 10. He can coach, but either can't or won't recruit forcing him to HAVE to coach well to be successful. Let's also note that the native basketball talent in Wisconsin has exploded in the last 4 years which has allowed Bo to get more talent with the same amount of recruiting effort...hence why he has his best two teams to date.
-
Izzo's the best current coach in the country today. Seven final fours since 1999 while having a more difficult recruiting situation (although still good) than Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina and a few others.
Were Calhoun still active they'd be my top two. After that it's Pitino, K and Cal in any order.
If we rephrased the question to be best coaches based on results compared to resources/status/talent it'd be a much different list.
How is Gregg Marshall not on this list somewhere???
-
So Bo gets penalized for staying where he is while Huggy gets extra points for wandering? Whatevs. We will have to disagree. I don't even like Bo but I believe in giving credit where it's due.
Nobody is penalized. It's just more impressive do it at multiple schools. All those listed make millions per year. Nobody is penalized. No offense, but you are sporting quite a BOner right now.
-
If Brad Stevens were still in college, he would have to be top 3 on this list because he built something out of nothing, and it's still going.
Stevens improved on their tradition, but they did have 6 NCAA appearances in the decade before he took over and 2 Sweet 16s. Barry Collier, Thad Matta, and Todd Lickliter all had moderate success there before Stevens took over.
-
Stevens improved on their tradition, but they did have 6 NCAA appearances in the decade before he took over and 2 Sweet 16s. Barry Collier, Thad Matta, and Todd Lickliter all had moderate success there before Stevens took over.
Brew, fair point, I just forgot those guys were there. I can't know the in depth history of every D1 basketball program, who am I? Ners!?!?! ;) ;D
-
Brew, fair point, I just forgot those guys were there. I can't know the in depth history of every D1 basketball program, who am I? Ners!?!?! ;) ;D
No, Ners I believe was coach there before Collier. Without him, Butler would have been a nothing and Stevens would still be a high school assistant. ;)
-
No, Ners I believe was coach there before Collier. Without him, Butler would have been a nothing and Stevens would still be a high school assistant. ;)
We all know Stevens never dunked on anybody.
-
You can name 10 other coaches who are 14-for-14 in making it to the NCAAs, capped off by two straight Final Four appearances? OK.
Jeesh ... I can't believe I'm lobbying for the Grinch ... but fair is fair.
Mark Few of Gonzaga is 16 for 16 on tourney bids. And he doesn't have a power conference or state school money to help his program.
He is a younger version(by 16 years) of Bo.
-
Mark Few of Gonzaga is 16 for 16 on tourney bids. And he doesn't have a power conference or state school money to help his program.
He is a younger version(by 16 years) of Bo.
Few has zero Final Fours and I think only a couple of Elite Eights. He also has a conference he can dominate, one that rarely includes even 2 other decent teams. And he, like a few others on these lists, inherited a very good situation.
Still, 16-for-16 is extremely impressive and he has helped make Gonzaga a national basketball brand, no easy feat for a small private school in the middle of nowhere.
-
Few has zero Final Fours and I think only a couple of Elite Eights. He also has a conference he can dominate, one that rarely includes even 2 other decent teams. And he, like a few others on these lists, inherited a very good situation.
This year was his first Elite Eight. Few is a good coach, but it's tough to really judge because that conference is typically pretty weak. The consistency is still impressive, but he's not on par with coaches that are actually tested all year long.
-
I will only say that if the legendary Stew Morrill had not retired, all these lists would look quite different.
-
If you had been asked before the season to name the top 5 coaches in college basketball, how many of you would have had the final 4 coaches in your top 5? Probably quite a Few. (ha, unfortunate Gonzaga pun) Maybe Donovan, Wright, Sean Miller, Matta (chico would have included Crean, of course), but these 4 guys would have been consistently in the top 5.
My point? Good coaching matters. It is my fervent hope that Wojo can develop.
Last year (2014) we had Kevin Ollie, second year coach and Bo getting to his first in a long career.
2013 was Gregg Marshall (Wichita State)
2011 was Stevens of Butler and Shaka of VCU
2010 was Stevens of Butler
We had just as many years were a new young hot coach breaks through as we had years were all the tried and true names make the FF.
Seems to me this comment is merely an emotional reaction to what happened yesterday, not a comment about a recurring trend year-in and year-out.
-
Should we include Dave Leitao?