MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: HutchwasClutch on March 21, 2015, 08:58:01 AM
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Big East programs - those in good hands, i.e. solid coaches leading their programs, highly likely for sustained success -
The Haves
MU
Villanova
Creighton
Georgetown
Xavier
The Have Nots
Seton Hall (Willard is a bad coach - their performances in two losses to us this year, just reeked of a poorly coached team, undiscplined, negative body language on many players, couldn't figure out that Carlino couldn't be left open and he killed them in NY)
Providence
DePaul
St. John's (not sold at all on Lavin, he can recruit, but plenty of talent this year and really up and down year for them)
Maybe
Butler - great first year for their new coach, don't know enough about him, or seen them play enough to have a strong opinion yet. They seem to likely be a Have program however. But Holtman got the gig under very difficult circumstances, hard for me to believe what they've done this year is a fluke.
Have at it MU Nation
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While I have faith in Wojo, I think we belong in the maybe category until he proves he can coach as well as he can recruit. I'd put Providence in the have category. Cooley is a good recruiter and coach. They may not be a perennial power, but I think he'll keep them in the top half most years.
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While I have faith in Wojo, I think we belong in the maybe category until he proves he can coach as well as he can recruit. I'd put Providence in the have category. Cooley is a good recruiter and coach. They may not be a perennial power, but I think he'll keep them in the top half most years.
I'm not sold on Cooley. Besides the turd last night Providence turned in against a weak Dayton team, one of our meager 4 regular season conference win total came against them. They had a nice year, but his success so far there has been quite underwhelming. I think he's yet to win an NCAA game, and last night on paper should have been a walk in the park for them.
If I were being generous, I would have put Providence as a maybe. But no way do I consider them a Have program.
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Butler is more proven than all but 2 programs in this conference.
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Big East programs - those in good hands, i.e. solid coaches leading their programs, highly likely for sustained success -
The Haves
MU
Villanova
Creighton
Georgetown
Xavier
The Have Nots
Seton Hall (Willard is a bad coach - their performances in two losses to us this year, just reeked of a poorly coached team, undiscplined, negative body language on many players, couldn't figure out that Carlino couldn't be left open and he killed them in NY)
Providence
DePaul
St. John's (not sold at all on Lavin, he can recruit, but plenty of talent this year and really up and down year for them)
Maybe
Butler - great first year for their new coach, don't know enough about him, or seen them play enough to have a strong opinion yet. They seem to likely be a Have program however. But Holtman got the gig under very difficult circumstances, hard for me to believe what they've done this year is a fluke.
Have at it MU Nation
I'd look at it a little differently:
Elite Potential - Consistently:
MU
Nova
GT
Just Fine
X
Creighton
Providence
Butler
Messed Up
DePaul
St Johns
Seton Hall
The just fine programs will never get the top recruits, never have the great coaches, etc. to be a final four team, but they will make the tournament regularly, be solid and consistent and fit well in the Big East.
The messed up programs we need around so there are bottom feeders in the conference. Lavin is like Crean, good recruiter, couldn't coach a 5th grade team. St. John's has potential to move out of the messed up category and even into the elite category. The other two look to be permanently messed up.
The elite potential is based on tradition, commitment from the university administration, quality of the staff, recruiting capability, fan base, and expectations of all of these stakeholders. Based on the last 2 years alone, MU is actually in the messed up category, but taking a long term view, they are definitely in the elite potential category. Elite potential means repeat elite 8 performances, making the tournament every year, and occasional forays into the final four.
I also think that this is how new entrants to the league should be judged. Dayton would be a "just fine" program. So would Gonzaga. Bringing back UConn, Syracuse, (excluding recent issues), ND would bring in elite potential teams.
Also, never want more than 3/10 messed up programs. Hard to get 6 teams in the tournament when 4 of the 10 in the league really suck. This year was an exception, imho.
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While I have faith in Wojo, I think we belong in the maybe category until he proves he can coach as well as he can recruit. I'd put Providence in the have category. Cooley is a good recruiter and coach. They may not be a perennial power, but I think he'll keep them in the top half most years.
Before Carlino's concussion, we were going to toe to toe with almost everbody, home and away. The 'Nova road and conference tournament games being the exceptions ( Carlino played in the home game against 'Nova0, which even the best of the best in college ball wouldn't have been able to do anything with given the talent, experience, and depth disparity between us and 'Nova this year.
Wojo showed his coaching chops a lot this year. He made fools of better talented, but weakly coached teams like Ga Tech and Seton Hall, even Tennessee. Heck, they stayed with Bucky for 30 plus minutes and had that a one possession game when by rights talent and experience on paper suggested that should have been over before halftime.
Wojo can coach.
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Butler is more proven than all but 2 programs in this conference.
My post was about where the 10 programs are headed as things stand today in my view, not where they've been.
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Actually DePaul could put itself in the Haves if they make the right hire. Although, there seems to be consensus everywhere that the powers that be at that school just aren't bought in to making that program relevant again, so I guess they even with the right hire, they're no more than in the Maybe category.
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I think Wojo will be fine. All I'm saying is he has to prove it by winning before we can put ourselves in the same class as Nova and Georgetown.
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I think Wojo will be fine. All I'm saying is he has to prove it by winning before we can put ourselves in the same class as Nova and Georgetown.
I'm only putting us in Georgetown, 'Nova et al's class in the sense we're in good hands and setup for future success. The degree of that success I didn't intend to weigh in on by starting this thread.
And you're right of course that he has to prove it. I just think there's evidence already as I pointed out in my earlier post that he can coach and prepare a team as well as recruit.
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My post was about where the 10 programs are headed as things stand today in my view, not where they've been.
So we just finished in last place and we are headed towards elite status? You can like our recruiting class coming in, but they, as well as Wojo haven't proven anything yet. I think Wojo is going to do well here, but I'm not as positive as I was before the season started. By including MU in the "elite" category, you are being a MU homer based on what we know now.
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So we just finished in last place and we are headed towards elite status? You can like our recruiting class coming in, but they, as well as Wojo haven't proven anything yet. I think Wojo is going to do well here, but I'm not as positive as I was before the season started. By including MU in the "elite" category, you are being a MU homer based on what we know now.
Holy cow, I never said that!!! WTF dude?
And my post right above yours I clarified I didn't start this intending to give an opinion on the degree of success of the 10 programs, just merely stating who is in good hands and setup for sustained success. So you're reading waaaay more into it than what I actually stated.
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Butler is more proven than all but 2 programs in this conference.
The thing with Butler is whether or not Holtmann can replace the Brad Stevens recruits. Kameron Woods and Alex Barlow graduate this year. Kellen Dunham and Roosevelt Jones have on e more season to go, leaving only Andwre Chabazsc (though he never did play for Stevens). Holtmann surely can coach. Recruiting...we shall see.
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The thing with Butler is whether or not Holtmann can replace the Brad Stevens recruits. Kameron Woods and Alex Barlow graduate this year. Kellen Dunham and Roosevelt Jones have on e more season to go, leaving only Andwre Chabazsc (though he never did play for Stevens). Holtmann surely can coach. Recruiting...we shall see.
Agreed and exactly why I have their success outlook in the Maybe category as things stand today.
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Has Butler fully committed to the current coach or are they still planing to bring back the guy with anxiety issues? I haven't paid enough attention.
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Holy cow, I never said that!!! WTF dude?
And my post right above yours I clarified I didn't start this intending to give an opinion on the degree of success of the 10 programs, just merely stating who is in good hands and setup for sustained success. So you're reading waaaay more into it than what I actually stated.
My bad, I was skimming quickly and just reread it.
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My post was about where the 10 programs are headed as things stand today in my view, not where they've been.
Gotcha. Makes sense. In my mind I think Butler is about as solid as you can ask for outside of the top tier of basketball schools (UNC, Duke, UK, Florida, Kansas, etc.). Sure they will have their down year here or there, but who doesn't? They are a program that has an identity no matter who is on the sidelines for them and will always be a tough team to beat. They will consistently make the Tournament and have years where they have the potential to make a really deep tournament run. In my mind, Marquette and Georgetown fit this description as well, and the only program who I think has a trajectory better than that in the Big East is Villinova. Hopefully Marquette and Georgetown can prove me wrong and be more than that, but that's what I have seen in the past and what I see going forward.
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While I have faith in Wojo, I think we belong in the maybe category until he proves he can coach as well as he can recruit. I'd put Providence in the have category. Cooley is a good recruiter and coach. They may not be a perennial power, but I think he'll keep them in the top half most years.
Agreed on Wojo, Brew. I love MU, but many of us cannot see beyond the Blue and Gold prisms. In the last two years we went 30 and 34, with no sniff of post season play. Wojo has us on the right track in recruiting, but he has shown ability as a game coach, yet. Hopefully we see significant improvement next season, and he lands a couple of top recruits from the 2016 class. By the end of next season, we will have a much better idea.
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Has Butler fully committed to the current coach or are they still planing to bring back the guy with anxiety issues? I haven't paid enough attention.
The current guy is their permanent coach.
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I think Wojo will be fine. All I'm saying is he has to prove it by winning before we can put ourselves in the same class as Nova and Georgetown.
The point is looking at the programs as a whole though. Obviously with a coaching change and major turnover you will be bad for that year but MU has consistently had success under multiple coaches.
Providence hasn't even won a tourney game since 97.
Wojo "unproven" or not. We are higher than them.
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We are in no position to be questioning Butler. If what they've done over the past decade isn't enough, I'm not sure what else they can do to convince somebody.
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Also, never want more than 3/10 messed up programs. Hard to get 6 teams in the tournament when 4 of the 10 in the league really suck. This year was an exception, imho.
The only way we get 6 or 7 teams in is if the bottom really suck. This year we had 6 teams .500 and above, and 4 with records of .333 and below in conference. 6 teams with 20 wins, and 4 teams with overall losing records.
Consider what might have happened if MU and Creighton each won just one more game each against Xavier and St. Johns. If that had happened, only 4 Big East teams would be in the NCAA tournament.
No way Xavier gets in with a 7-11 conference record. Doubutful that St. Johns makes it after going 8-10 in conference and 19-14 overall record. And 7-13 wouldn't have boosted the hopes of either MU or Creighton. Thus, improvement at the bottom means fewer NCAA teams for the league.
We could get 7 teams in, but that would mean the bottom three teams would have to REALLY suck.
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My bad, I was skimming quickly and just reread it.
Understood, sorry I was a jerk in my response.
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Big East programs - those in good hands, i.e. solid coaches leading their programs, highly likely for sustained success -
The Haves
MU
Villanova
Creighton
Georgetown
Xavier
The Have Nots
Seton Hall (Willard is a bad coach - their performances in two losses to us this year, just reeked of a poorly coached team, undiscplined, negative body language on many players, couldn't figure out that Carlino couldn't be left open and he killed them in NY)
Providence
DePaul
St. John's (not sold at all on Lavin, he can recruit, but plenty of talent this year and really up and down year for them)
Maybe
Butler - great first year for their new coach, don't know enough about him, or seen them play enough to have a strong opinion yet. They seem to likely be a Have program however. But Holtman got the gig under very difficult circumstances, hard for me to believe what they've done this year is a fluke.
Have at it MU Nation
I think my only disagreement would be to put both Providence and Creighton in the maybe category. I think back to the mid 2000s when we joined the BEast and many thought that it would be an accomplishment if we actually made it to NYC on a consistent basis back when the weakest teams were left home. We've been a top tier program since our arrival. Providence is always 'not quite' but I do think Cooley is a decent coach and while Creighton would seem to be able to sustain momentum given their very solid support, they are yet to prove that in the BEast. Time will tell for both programs.
Totally agree on DePaul, Seton Hall, and St. John's. By the way, we'd all be better off if St. John's became a credible force in the league year after year.
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I think my only disagreement would be to put both Providence and Creighton in the maybe category. I think back to the mid 2000s when we joined the BEast and many thought that it would be an accomplishment if we actually made it to NYC on a consistent basis back when the weakest teams were left home. We've been a top tier program since our arrival. Providence is always 'not quite' but I do think Cooley is a decent coach and while Creighton would seem to be able to sustain momentum given their very solid support, they are yet to prove that in the BEast. Time will tell for both programs.
Totally agree on DePaul, Seton Hall, and St. John's. By the way, we'd all be better off if St. John's became a credible force in the league year after year.
I think that's an excellent point. Any league, college or pro I'd contend, need the teams in their biggest markets to be consistently good. It means everything for TV ratings, fan interest and passion, the attention that is brought to the league when the big markets are good, which gets the more casual fans attention, etc. The NFL may be the exception to that rule given that leagues overwhelming popularity. I'm sure the NBA for example badly wants franchises like the Knicks, Lakers, and 76ers to be something again.
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I'm not sold on Cooley. Besides the turd last night Providence turned in against a weak Dayton team, one of our meager 4 regular season conference win total came against them. They had a nice year, but his success so far there has been quite underwhelming. I think he's yet to win an NCAA game, and last night on paper should have been a walk in the park for them.
If I were being generous, I would have put Providence as a maybe. But no way do I consider them a Have program.
I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
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I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
Wow.
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I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
This might literally be the dumbest thing I've ever read on Scoop. And there have been some good ones.
Ed Cooley has as many NCAA tournament wins as Wojo does...and Wojo has 13 total wins as a head coach.
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I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
(http://rs6.pbsrc.com/albums/y219/EmMahLee_/gifs/spockquestionable.gif~c200)
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This might literally be the dumbest thing I've ever read on Scoop. And there have been some good ones.
Ed Cooley has as many NCAA tournament wins as Wojo does...and Wojo has 13 total wins as a head coach.
I personally think the guy (Wojo) is in over his head. Watching mid major teams this weekend with limited talent show significantly better basketball IQ by both their players and coaches than our coaching staff and team this season is embarrassing. I hope I'm wrong.
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I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140310004650/fallout/images/b/b5/Exploding-head.gif)
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I personally think the guy (Wojo) is in over his head. Watching mid major teams this weekend with limited talent show significantly better basketball IQ by both their players and coaches than our coaching staff and team this season is embarrassing. I hope I'm wrong.
Mid-major teams, with full rosters, that have been playing together for years, under the same head coach are doing better than Wojo with half a roster of players he met less than a year ago.
Color me shocked.
Your basketball IQ statement could not be more incorrect as these players showed great leaps in knowledge as the year progressed, even Derrick and Juan.
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I personally think the guy (Wojo) is in over his head. Watching mid major teams this weekend with limited talent show significantly better basketball IQ by both their players and coaches than our coaching staff and team this season is embarrassing. I hope I'm wrong.
Just go ahead and admit your strong anti-Duke bias so at least everyone knows where you're coming from when you make statements like you've made here. You hate Duke, and now you're stuck rooting for a guy that has spent almost his entire adult life part of the Duke program you despise. Nothing wrong with being anti-Duke, lots of people don't like them. But you're letting that blind your judgment into absurd statements.
By the way, your pre-tourney prediction of St. John's knocking off Duke, I think your words were "Duke sh**ting the bed", so have you now just inserted Dayton into that same prediction?
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Here's the reality - outside of MU students, alumni and college basketball junkies people couldn't care less about a single NCAA championship that happened nearly 40 years ago.
The majority of this board has a serious case of bias concerning MU basketball. The same people who discount UCLA as a blue blood for lack of recent success despite their illustrious history fail to understand that they've been far more successful the last 15 years than Marquette during that same stretch and would seriously consider Marquette a better program currently despite it being completely false (it's not even close).
The propensity to over value players who have yet to even put on a Marquette jersey yet at the same time dismiss any player who leaves the program as being completely void of talent is beyond laughable and requires a complete logical disconnect. The same thing happens with coaches. Our last two coaches who led the university to it's best sustained success since the 70's are both regularly trashed on this board and an overrated point guard who led Duke to it's worst four seasons in the last 25 years who outside of assembling a quality recruiting class has been out coached by nearly everyone else in the conference yet the completely unearned faith Wojo's been granted by this board is baffling. Outside of taking horrible technical fouls, shaking his fists in frustration every time an opposing player made a basket and implementing a 2-3 zone which EVERY decent basketball coach could teach their team, he was completely outclassed by almost every conference head coach this season. It's really ironic too considering when Wojo either leaves for a different job or is asked to leave these same people will be the first to trash whatever he's done for the program due to this completely irrational belief that Marquette is a program at the pinnacle of college basketball.
Right now the reality is that Wojo is closer to being replaced for lack of results than leaving for a better opportunity, which should ease those of you who fret about Marquette being a stepping stone job.
Some of you guys would greatly benefit from letting go of your completely unfounded and unrealistic view of the state of Marquette basketball and simply root for your team without the delusions of grandeur.
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I personally think the guy (Wojo) is in over his head. Watching mid major teams this weekend with limited talent show significantly better basketball IQ by both their players and coaches than our coaching staff and team this season is embarrassing. I hope I'm wrong.
Our. Team. This. Year. Was. No. Good. The. Cupboard. Was. Comically. Barren. (in regards to what Wojo feels he needs)
Seriously, how many times do we have to unnatural carnal knowledgeing go over this. All this year was, in essence, was Wojo putting his stamp on a program and COMPLETELY changing the culture. We suffered some casualties (Deonte jumping ship), and lost a number of guys (Levin, Mayo, Dawson, Noskowiak, Taylor), but that's looking at things short sighted. You cannot get 2 coaches who differ more greatly than Buzz and Wojo. Period. With the way they recruit players, who they recruit, to the way they handle administration and the athletic department, what they expect of players off the court, etc. And people just thought the transition would be seamless and we would greatly contend from Day 1?? Get the hell out of here.
Wojo knows what he wants in terms of player, and guys who don't fit that mold are no longer here. Plain and simple. It was absolutely vital for him to bring in HIS guys, and he went out and signed a Top 5 recruiting class immediately. Not only that, but we now have a young core (albeit, currently on the mend) in Duane and Luke who will be two of the better players in the Big East from here on out. What more can you ask for? On-court, we were very competitive in every game this year with no depth, no height until Luke, inexperienced talent and experienced frustration. And yet we held our own and very well could have pulled off another 5 or so wins this year. Then Carlino went down for 3 weeks, Juan was injured for a while, Luke was playing all year with a bum shoulder. So we struggled mightily all year. It happens. This year was a throwaway. To even suggest we know what kind of coach Wojo is and how he will fare based off of what he had this year is laughable. The dude knows Xs and Os as well as anyone, has shown he has the chops to go out and get phenomenal prospects, and most importantly, he's going about it the right way.
I ran into Carlino this week and thought I'd ask how his year went and if he regretted coming here because of how lousy we were. He said his time at Marquette was better than any other stop he'd made, that Wojo was the best man and coach he has played for in his playing career, and that the guy was going to be an absolute stud here at Marquette. This was par for the course with what I've heard from a number of people close to and around the bball squad. I'm 100% sold and have seen nothing yet to suggest otherwise.
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Just go ahead and admit your strong anti-Duke bias so at least everyone knows where you're coming from when you make statements like you've made here. You hate Duke, and now you're stuck rooting for a guy that has spent almost his entire adult life part of the Duke program you despise. Nothing wrong with being anti-Duke, lots of people don't like them. But you're letting that blind your judgment into absurd statements.
By the way, your pre-tourney prediction of St. John's knocking off Duke, I think your words were "Duke sh**ting the bed", so have you now just inserted Dayton into that same prediction?
My statement actually was IF (and that's a big if) St John's can get by their opening round game that they present a difficult match up for Duke.
Of course comprehending what others are saying has always been difficult for you so I'd expect nothing less. Besides, anyone who has made a comment not in teal about Sandy Cohen having the skill set to play point guard is either clueless or bat sh!t crazy.
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Here's the reality - outside of MU students, alumni and college basketball junkies people couldn't care less about a single NCAA championship that happened nearly 40 years ago.
The majority of this board has a serious case of bias concerning MU basketball. The same people who discount UCLA as a blue blood for lack of recent success despite their illustrious history fail to understand that they've been far more successful the last 15 years than Marquette during that same stretch and would seriously consider Marquette a better program currently despite it being completely false (it's not even close).
The propensity to over value players who have yet to even put on a Marquette jersey yet at the same time dismiss any player who leaves the program as being completely void of talent is beyond laughable and requires a complete logical disconnect. The same thing happens with coaches. Our last two coaches who led the university to it's best sustained success since the 70's are both regularly trashed on this board and an overrated point guard who led Duke to it's worst four seasons in the last 25 years who outside of assembling a quality recruiting class has been out coached by nearly everyone else in the conference yet the completely unearned faith Wojo's been granted by this board is baffling. Outside of taking horrible technical fouls, shaking his fists in frustration every time an opposing player made a basket and implementing a 2-3 zone which EVERY decent basketball coach could teach their team, he was completely outclassed by almost every conference head coach this season. It's really ironic too considering when Wojo either leaves for a different job or is asked to leave these same people will be the first to trash whatever he's done for the program due to this completely irrational belief that Marquette is a program at the pinnacle of college basketball.
Right now the reality is that Wojo is closer to being replaced for lack of results than leaving for a better opportunity, which should ease those of you who fret about Marquette being a stepping stone job.
Some of you guys would greatly benefit from letting go of your completely unfounded and unrealistic view of the state of Marquette basketball and simply root for your team without the delusions of grandeur.
Are you Ners's kid?
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My statement actually was IF (and that's a big if) St John's can get by their opening round game that they present a difficult match up for Duke.
Of course comprehending what others are saying has always been difficult for you so I'd expect nothing less. Besides, anyone who has made a comment not in teal about Sandy Cohen having the skill set to play point guard is either clueless or bat sh!t crazy.
Thank-you for offering zero denial of my claim that all your anti-Wojo venom is just your huge anti-Duke bias manifested.
"clueless or bat shi*t crazy" - you've started that debate about yourself reading your posts in this thread alone. Congratulations.
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My statement actually was IF (and that's a big if) St John's can get by their opening round game that they present a difficult match up for Duke.
Of course comprehending what others are saying has always been difficult for you so I'd expect nothing less. Besides, anyone who has made a comment not in teal about Sandy Cohen having the skill set to play point guard is either clueless or bat sh!t crazy.
Cohen does have the skills to play PG in spots during his MU career. I never stated he's going to be our full-time PG at some point. I've seen him in non MU game action as well to reach that conclusion. We'll see, I'm not holding that opinion as if it's indisputable, or a guarantee. I know I'm in a very small minority right now holding that opinion. I was also in a very small minority, I think a minority of one, on the board this summer that said JJJ is overrated. Sometimes being right is lonely.
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How could you have Marquette in the good section. We were terrible in our first year with wojo, worse than what we expected for the most part. And what makes you think we have a solid sustained coach in wojo?
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Cohen does have the skills to play PG in spots during his MU career. I never stated he's going to be our full-time PG at some point. I've seen him in non MU game action to reach that conclusion. We'll see, I'm not holding that opinion as if it's indisputable, or a guarantee. I know I'm in a very small minority right now holding that opinion. I was also in a very small minority, I think a minority of one, on the board this summer that said JJJ is overrated. Sometimes being right is lonely.
I had my concerns about JJJ as well.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=45056.msg659446#msg659446
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I had my concerns about JJJ as well.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=45056.msg659446#msg659446
Fair enough - a very small minority is the correct statement then.
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I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for just Cooley without batting an eye.
MUScoop is here for most anyone.......Good or Bad.......Smart or Dumb.....Exhibit One!
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Seriously guys, Wojo made everyone not named Purnell and Willard look like geniuses.
Anybody who actually watched this season knows that poor in game coaching (particularly late game) cost this team at least six wins. There is a huge difference between being an assistant coach for one of the all time great coaches and actually being a good coach yourself. Wojo has successfully ridden coach K's coattails, but nothing he's done so far suggests he's even an average in game basketball coach.
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Big East programs - those in good hands, i.e. solid coaches leading their programs, highly likely for sustained success -
The Haves
MU
Villanova
Creighton
Georgetown
Xavier
The Have Nots
Seton Hall (Willard is a bad coach - their performances in two losses to us this year, just reeked of a poorly coached team, undiscplined, negative body language on many players, couldn't figure out that Carlino couldn't be left open and he killed them in NY)
Providence
DePaul
St. John's (not sold at all on Lavin, he can recruit, but plenty of talent this year and really up and down year for them)
Maybe
Butler - great first year for their new coach, don't know enough about him, or seen them play enough to have a strong opinion yet. They seem to likely be a Have program however. But Holtman got the gig under very difficult circumstances, hard for me to believe what they've done this year is a fluke.
Have at it MU Nation
I don't like putting any of the teams into categories. My hope is that they all become competitive. Sure some will have to be at the bottom and some at the top. As Ben Franklin said: Either we all hang together or we will all hang separately.
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Seriously guys, Wojo made everyone not named Purnell and Willard look like geniuses.
Anybody who actually watched this season knows that poor in game coaching (particularly late game) cost this team at least six wins. There is a huge difference between being an assistant coach for one of the all time great coaches and actually being a good coach yourself. Wojo has successfully ridden coach K's coattails, but nothing he's done so far suggests he's even an average in game basketball coach.
I am certainly not saying that he was fantastic, but Wojo's game coaching did not cost Marquette "at least six wins." And I watched every game but two.
I saw a coach of a team that had limited options, especially on the offensive end. I saw a coach who made adjustments as the season went on, but without a great deal of talent, and absolutely no depth to use as a change up, only so many adjustments could be made.
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Seriously guys, Wojo made everyone not named Purnell and Willard look like geniuses.
Anybody who actually watched this season knows that poor in game coaching (particularly late game) cost this team at least six wins. There is a huge difference between being an assistant coach for one of the all time great coaches and actually being a good coach yourself. Wojo has successfully ridden coach K's coattails, but nothing he's done so far suggests he's even an average in game basketball coach.
You are making Purnell and Willard look like geniuses.
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I'm sold on Cooley and Providence. Back to back ncaa's and a Big East Tournament Title.
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Mattyv has brought stupid to a whole new level.
I think a congratulations is in order.
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Mattyv has brought stupid to a whole new level.
I think a congratulations is in order.
Why? Because I think Wojo will be a dud?
This forum has a topic regarding Jay Wright and JTIII and speculating on what their lack of recent success in the NCAAT means for their jobs and I'm bringing stupid to a whole new level?
Add Jay Wright and JTIII to the list of coaches I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for.
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Why? Because I think Wojo will be a dud?
No.
But saying that his coaching cost Marquette "at least six games" isn't a very smart statement.
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Here's the reality - outside of MU students, alumni and college basketball junkies people couldn't care less about a single NCAA championship that happened nearly 40 years ago.
The majority of this board has a serious case of bias concerning MU basketball. The same people who discount UCLA as a blue blood for lack of recent success despite their illustrious history fail to understand that they've been far more successful the last 15 years than Marquette during that same stretch and would seriously consider Marquette a better program currently despite it being completely false (it's not even close).
The propensity to over value players who have yet to even put on a Marquette jersey yet at the same time dismiss any player who leaves the program as being completely void of talent is beyond laughable and requires a complete logical disconnect. The same thing happens with coaches. Our last two coaches who led the university to it's best sustained success since the 70's are both regularly trashed on this board and an overrated point guard who led Duke to it's worst four seasons in the last 25 years who outside of assembling a quality recruiting class has been out coached by nearly everyone else in the conference yet the completely unearned faith Wojo's been granted by this board is baffling. Outside of taking horrible technical fouls, shaking his fists in frustration every time an opposing player made a basket and implementing a 2-3 zone which EVERY decent basketball coach could teach their team, he was completely outclassed by almost every conference head coach this season. It's really ironic too considering when Wojo either leaves for a different job or is asked to leave these same people will be the first to trash whatever he's done for the program due to this completely irrational belief that Marquette is a program at the pinnacle of college basketball.
Right now the reality is that Wojo is closer to being replaced for lack of results than leaving for a better opportunity, which should ease those of you who fret about Marquette being a stepping stone job.
Some of you guys would greatly benefit from letting go of your completely unfounded and unrealistic view of the state of Marquette basketball and simply root for your team without the delusions of grandeur.
Wow dude, respect the process, hey? Steve was left with jock itch and no Gold Bond anywhere.
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Wow dude, respect the process, hey? Steve was left with jock itch and no Gold Bond anywhere.
Thanks to the phony hillbilly. But hey, in Buzz we trust, I'm really a badger fan
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Why? Because I think Wojo will be a dud?
This forum has a topic regarding Jay Wright and JTIII and speculating on what their lack of recent success in the NCAAT means for their jobs and I'm bringing stupid to a whole new level?
Add Jay Wright and JTIII to the list of coaches I'd trade Wojo and Ellenson for.
Wojo has some improvement needed as an in game coach, especially late in games. That said, we had the worst roster in the league and it wasn't that close. DePaul had much more talent and even Creighton had a good facilitating point guard and shooters all around. We had three capable big east level players.
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I think anyone trying to make a definitive statement on how good of a coach Wojo will be at this point, whether good or bad, is on a fool's errand. Be optimistic or be pessimistic, but just know there is next to no relevant data to actually base that on. He's got two more seasons before we can get a really good sense of his ability as a coach....and 5 years to make a final judgement ;D
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Here's the reality - outside of MU students, alumni and college basketball junkies people couldn't care less about a single NCAA championship that happened nearly 40 years ago.
The majority of this board has a serious case of bias concerning MU basketball. The same people who discount UCLA as a blue blood for lack of recent success despite their illustrious history fail to understand that they've been far more successful the last 15 years than Marquette during that same stretch and would seriously consider Marquette a better program currently despite it being completely false (it's not even close).
The propensity to over value players who have yet to even put on a Marquette jersey yet at the same time dismiss any player who leaves the program as being completely void of talent is beyond laughable and requires a complete logical disconnect. The same thing happens with coaches. Our last two coaches who led the university to it's best sustained success since the 70's are both regularly trashed on this board and an overrated point guard who led Duke to it's worst four seasons in the last 25 years who outside of assembling a quality recruiting class has been out coached by nearly everyone else in the conference yet the completely unearned faith Wojo's been granted by this board is baffling. Outside of taking horrible technical fouls, shaking his fists in frustration every time an opposing player made a basket and implementing a 2-3 zone which EVERY decent basketball coach could teach their team, he was completely outclassed by almost every conference head coach this season. It's really ironic too considering when Wojo either leaves for a different job or is asked to leave these same people will be the first to trash whatever he's done for the program due to this completely irrational belief that Marquette is a program at the pinnacle of college basketball.
Right now the reality is that Wojo is closer to being replaced for lack of results than leaving for a better opportunity, which should ease those of you who fret about Marquette being a stepping stone job.
Some of you guys would greatly benefit from letting go of your completely unfounded and unrealistic view of the state of Marquette basketball and simply root for your team without the delusions of grandeur.
You actually bring up some good points, but I think your judgement on Wojo is just too quick.
If MU looks bad for all of next season, and more guys leave, then I think you are 100% correct. I will be very concerned.
But, as it stands right now, I just think it's an "incomplete". We've seen some flashes of good, and some flashes of learning on the job.
Maybe a better question would be: What could Wojo have done different/better to make you more confident in his abilities? If the answer is a generic "Win more!", well, then we're just doing some meatball fan stuff. If you want to go through a legitimate evaluation of his coaching, well, then that's actually a good off season topic. Maybe we should all do a report card.
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You actually bring up some good points, but I think your judgement on Wojo is just too quick.
If MU looks bad for all of next season, and more guys leave, then I think you are 100% correct. I will be very concerned.
But, as it stands right now, I just think it's an "incomplete". We've seen some flashes of good, and some flashes of learning on the job.
Maybe a better question would be: What could Wojo have done different/better to make you more confident in his abilities? If the answer is a generic "Win more!", well, then we're just doing some meatball fan stuff. If you want to go through a legitimate evaluation of his coaching, well, then that's actually a good off season topic. Maybe we should all do a report card.
@ Canned-
My biggest problem is not with Wojo himself, it's the propensity of this board to instantly fall head over heels with any new coach/player with religious ferver and as soon as said coach/player is no longer with the program those same people are the first to discredit any accomplishment/value/potential that they so vigorously supported. It reeks of both insecurity and immaturity.
That said, there's several areas I think Wojo needs to significantly improve on as an in game coach (recruiting thus far has been excellent but let's see how the future classes look moving forward).
1. Bad technical fouls - sometimes they're a motivator for a good team. Unfortunately, when your team is challenged at putting up points and the game is in reach I think almost every technical he earned hurt the team's chances of winning.
2. Half time adjustments - Numerous times this season we saw opponents who struggled or were challenged by something we were doing in the first half only to come out of halftime having solved whatever wrinkle we were having success with. There was no adjusting the plan after that point. It almost seemed as if Wojo coached up a decent initial game plan yet stuck with it either far too long or never changed it up at all.
3. No killer instinct - How many decent sized late game leads did this team give up by going into a conservative shell? Wojo was constantly taking the air out of the ball with far too much time left, which undermines everything that was going well for the team all game.
3a. After giving up a late lead - To piggyback on the last point, once the lead was squandered away by being too conservative it seemed Wojo's answer to try and regain the lead was to put the ball in Carlino's hands in a pseudo isolation set which is the exact opposite of when Marquette's offense was functioning at it's best. Carlino is much more effective off the ball using screeners to generate space to hit shots. No efforts to get a good look for Luke inside.
4. Not utilizing Luke and Steve on the court together more - This is the only aspect of the rotation that I'll bring up I was unhappy with. It was clearly obvious that both players played much better when they were on the court together. Our rebounding improved, we had a good high/low game (Anderson never was suited for that), and it limited most double teams that really were effective against Luke. I'm sure foul concerns were a factor, but IMO when you're struggling to win I think it's worth the risk that one of those guys may foul out with 3-4 minutes remaining if it means we have a better line up on the court.
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@ Canned-
My biggest problem is not with Wojo himself, it's the propensity of this board to instantly fall head over heels with any new coach/player with religious ferver and as soon as said coach/player is no longer with the program those same people are the first to discredit any accomplishment/value/potential that they so vigorously supported. It reeks of both insecurity and immaturity.
That said, there's several areas I think Wojo needs to significantly improve on as an in game coach (recruiting thus far has been excellent but let's see how the future classes look moving forward).
1. Bad technical fouls - sometimes they're a motivator for a good team. Unfortunately, when your team is challenged at putting up points and the game is in reach I think almost every technical he earned hurt the team's chances of winning.
2. Half time adjustments - Numerous times this season we saw opponents who struggled or were challenged by something we were doing in the first half only to come out of halftime having solved whatever wrinkle we were having success with. There was no adjusting the plan after that point. It almost seemed as if Wojo coached up a decent initial game plan yet stuck with it either far too long or never changed it up at all.
3. No killer instinct - How many decent sized late game leads did this team give up by going into a conservative shell? Wojo was constantly taking the air out of the ball with far too much time left, which undermines everything that was going well for the team all game.
3a. After giving up a late lead - To piggyback on the last point, once the lead was squandered away by being too conservative it seemed Wojo's answer to try and regain the lead was to put the ball in Carlino's hands in a pseudo isolation set which is the exact opposite of when Marquette's offense was functioning at it's best. Carlino is much more effective off the ball using screeners to generate space to hit shots. No efforts to get a good look for Luke inside.
4. Not utilizing Luke and Steve on the court together more - This is the only aspect of the rotation that I'll bring up I was unhappy with. It was clearly obvious that both players played much better when they were on the court together. Our rebounding improved, we had a good high/low game (Anderson never was suited for that), and it limited most double teams that really were effective against Luke. I'm sure foul concerns were a factor, but IMO when you're struggling to win I think it's worth the risk that one of those guys may foul out with 3-4 minutes remaining if it means we have a better line up on the court.
I like this post a lot.
1. I completely agree with this.
2. Was it sticking with the game plan too long? Or was it lack of depth that prevented other options? I tend to think it was a combination of both - that the latter caused the former. I guess we will have to see as the next couple of years play out.
3. and 3a. I agree in part. I don't think there were many of these instances however. @DePaul and v. Butler are the two that stand out to me.
4. Agree.
Now I am going to take issue with what you said above: "My biggest problem is not with Wojo himself"
Yet here are some things you said about Wojo in this very thread.
- "I personally think the guy (Wojo) is in over his head."
- "Watching mid major teams this weekend with limited talent show significantly better basketball IQ by both their players and coaches than our coaching staff and team this season is embarrassing."
- "... he was completely outclassed by almost every conference head coach this season."
So if your real problem is "the propensity of this board to instantly fall head over heels with any new coach/player with religious ferver," why are you making these kind of statements about Wojo? Hyperbole?
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The last two posts are spot on.
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My biggest problem is not with Wojo himself, it's the propensity of this board to instantly fall head over heels with any new coach/player with religious ferver and as soon as said coach/player is no longer with the program those same people are the first to discredit any accomplishment/value/potential that they so vigorously supported. It reeks of both insecurity and immaturity.
For what it's worth, the propensities you mention exist on every team's message board.
You do realize that the term "fan" was derived from "fanatic," right?
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Sultan, I'll attempt to clarify.
There's nothing about the guy that I've seen that warrants the unquestioning faith people have given him. He looked like a rookie coach who often times got outcoached. He looked frustrated and at times not having any answers. Watching the NCAAT and specifically the coaches and teams who were heavy underdogs you could see the difference in coaching on display.
Eastern Washington against Georgetown is a perfect example. Early first half. It's obvious the size advantage that the Hoyas have. Immediately the EWU guards take the ball right at Smith and subsequently Thompson forcing both to sit with two fouls. It's smart basketball and that type of situational awareness was lacking from this year's team. Maybe some of that is on the players, but it's also on the coaching staff as they are the ones responsible for player development. Not everyone on this team was a high level player, but that doesn't disqualify them from understanding the game.
I don't think the team 'underachieved' from an overall record standpoint, but there certainly wasn't any overachieving either. I think the jury is out on Wojo, but I'm hesitant to shower unearned praise on a guy who hasn't shown anything to warrant it.
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Here's the reality - outside of MU students, alumni and college basketball junkies people couldn't care less about a single NCAA championship that happened nearly 40 years ago.
The majority of this board has a serious case of bias concerning MU basketball.
I plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of Scoop.
I'm parsing your comments into two categories. One is that I agree that it has been 38 years since we won it all. I know it seems like yesterday for me but all I have to do to realize how long it has been is to look in the mirror and see the lack of hair and the increase in thickness across the middle of my body from the night we won it all! It's nice to remember but it has been ages. Marquette is a different place now than it was then. The NCAA is different now than it was then and college basketball is different.
I strongly disagree with you on Wojo. What did you realistically expect? An NCAA berth? Playing next weekend? C'mon. He overhauled the program. With eight players who were worn to the ground by the time the game was over, I thought he did an excellent job working with what he had. Matt Carlino was an incredible finger in the dike. Without him -- and I doubt the guy would have come here without Wojo -- I don't think we would have won eight games.
You must be a young whippersnapper since I don't think you realize how bad Al's first season was. He did the same thing Wojo did. Get his own guys. Market the school as best he can and get folks who could play the game the way he wanted to have it played. Two years later, we lost in the finals of the NIT (which was a much bigger deal then than now) and the year after we started our post-season string.
Patience is a virtue. While I want an NCAA Championship banner in the Bradley Center too (that 1977 one does look kinda lonely up there), we need to at least give Wojo the chance to grow and get his guys in here. I'd like to think we will be dancing a year from now and I hope we will be. But I also want a program we can be proud of that's on the front pages of our local newsrag here in Chicago because we won something special and not because one of our athletes did things they should ought not be doing.
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I remember three technical fouls he took. Two of them I remember us finally getting some whistles after the technicals. The third was a total disaster and the calls against us actually seemed to get worse.
I'd have to look back, but I don't think each technical killed our chances of winning.
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After watching Duke yesterday, Wojo's end of game strategy is clearly a reflection of Coach K's preference of "shortening" the game with a healthy lead in the second half, which the announcers were falling all over him for. The difference is that, as mentioned, with an offensively challenged team, you can't get the buckets at will deep in the clock and you lose all rhythm and momentum.
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@ Canned-
My biggest problem is not with Wojo himself, it's the propensity of this board to instantly fall head over heels with any new coach/player with religious ferver and as soon as said coach/player is no longer with the program those same people are the first to discredit any accomplishment/value/potential that they so vigorously supported. It reeks of both insecurity and immaturity.
That said, there's several areas I think Wojo needs to significantly improve on as an in game coach (recruiting thus far has been excellent but let's see how the future classes look moving forward).
1. Bad technical fouls - sometimes they're a motivator for a good team. Unfortunately, when your team is challenged at putting up points and the game is in reach I think almost every technical he earned hurt the team's chances of winning.
2. Half time adjustments - Numerous times this season we saw opponents who struggled or were challenged by something we were doing in the first half only to come out of halftime having solved whatever wrinkle we were having success with. There was no adjusting the plan after that point. It almost seemed as if Wojo coached up a decent initial game plan yet stuck with it either far too long or never changed it up at all.
3. No killer instinct - How many decent sized late game leads did this team give up by going into a conservative shell? Wojo was constantly taking the air out of the ball with far too much time left, which undermines everything that was going well for the team all game.
3a. After giving up a late lead - To piggyback on the last point, once the lead was squandered away by being too conservative it seemed Wojo's answer to try and regain the lead was to put the ball in Carlino's hands in a pseudo isolation set which is the exact opposite of when Marquette's offense was functioning at it's best. Carlino is much more effective off the ball using screeners to generate space to hit shots. No efforts to get a good look for Luke inside.
4. Not utilizing Luke and Steve on the court together more - This is the only aspect of the rotation that I'll bring up I was unhappy with. It was clearly obvious that both players played much better when they were on the court together. Our rebounding improved, we had a good high/low game (Anderson never was suited for that), and it limited most double teams that really were effective against Luke. I'm sure foul concerns were a factor, but IMO when you're struggling to win I think it's worth the risk that one of those guys may foul out with 3-4 minutes remaining if it means we have a better line up on the court.
The critiques are fair, and I agree that Wojo isn't above reproach.
However, I think some of your frustration is just coming through your keyboard and that's why people are reacting to you.
To address your specific points above, I suspect that several of those issues are roster driven, so I'd like to see how he does with his own players.
Give Wojo a roster full of his own players, and let's see what happens. I used to say 4 or 5 years to evaluate a coach. I was wrong.
In the modern day, it's probably more like 3. So lets give Wojo 2 more years, and then we'll have an idea if we should be nominating him for canonization, or running him out of town.
As for your specific point about Georgetown getting attacked by guards, I mean, you're right, but I don't think hoops is that easy. If it was, Wojo could just say "Derrick, go get them in foul trouble!" and then it would happen, right?
I assume MU was TRYING to do a lot of the right "stuff" this season, but unfortunately, they just weren't up to the task from a personnel, gameplan or execution perspective. Certainly some of that falls on Wojo, but I also don't know if you can made chicken salad out of chicken S in a few months.
As uncomfortable as it is, we just have to give the coach some time. Frustrating sometimes, but that's life.
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Sultan, I'll attempt to clarify.
There's nothing about the guy that I've seen that warrants the unquestioning faith people have given him. He looked like a rookie coach who often times got outcoached. He looked frustrated and at times not having any answers. Watching the NCAAT and specifically the coaches and teams who were heavy underdogs you could see the difference in coaching on display.
Eastern Washington against Georgetown is a perfect example. Early first half. It's obvious the size advantage that the Hoyas have. Immediately the EWU guards take the ball right at Smith and subsequently Thompson forcing both to sit with two fouls. It's smart basketball and that type of situational awareness was lacking from this year's team. Maybe some of that is on the players, but it's also on the coaching staff as they are the ones responsible for player development. Not everyone on this team was a high level player, but that doesn't disqualify them from understanding the game.
I don't think the team 'underachieved' from an overall record standpoint, but there certainly wasn't any overachieving either. I think the jury is out on Wojo, but I'm hesitant to shower unearned praise on a guy who hasn't shown anything to warrant it.
He looked like a rookie coach...because he WAS a rookie coach. Yes, he made mistakes and got outcoached by guys with way more experience, but that's what rookie coaches do. See, e.g., Krzyzewski, Mike.
The optimism is due to the fact that we think he has the background to grow into a very good D-1 head coach. The alternative - assuming he's going to suck because he made rookie mistakes as a rookie - just doesn't sound all that much fun.
If we had hired Ben Howland, Shaka Smart or Cuonzo Martin and they made rookie mistakes, I'd be pretty damn nervous right now. As it is, we got what I expected from a rookie: rookie coaching.
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He looked like a rookie coach...because he WAS a rookie coach. Yes, he made mistakes and got outcoached by guys with way more experience, but that's what rookie coaches do. See, e.g., Krzyzewski, Mike.
The optimism is due to the fact that we think he has the background to grow into a very good D-1 head coach. The alternative - assuming he's going to suck because he made rookie mistakes as a rookie - just doesn't sound all that much fun.
That and the fact that he's put together a nice haul in his first recruiting class.
Every single one of us likely made dumb mistakes their first few months on the job. But it is very likely that we all improved in part due the wisdom that experience brings.
I gave him an incomplete for the year. Let's just see where this goes.
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I plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of Scoop.
I'm parsing your comments into two categories. One is that I agree that it has been 38 years since we won it all. I know it seems like yesterday for me but all I have to do to realize how long it has been is to look in the mirror and see the lack of hair and the increase in thickness across the middle of my body from the night we won it all! It's nice to remember but it has been ages. Marquette is a different place now than it was then. The NCAA is different now than it was then and college basketball is different.
I strongly disagree with you on Wojo. What did you realistically expect? An NCAA berth? Playing next weekend? C'mon. He overhauled the program. With eight players who were worn to the ground by the time the game was over, I thought he did an excellent job working with what he had. Matt Carlino was an incredible finger in the dike. Without him -- and I doubt the guy would have come here without Wojo -- I don't think we would have won eight games.
You must be a young whippersnapper since I don't think you realize how bad Al's first season was. He did the same thing Wojo did. Get his own guys. Market the school as best he can and get folks who could play the game the way he wanted to have it played. Two years later, we lost in the finals of the NIT (which was a much bigger deal then than now) and the year after we started our post-season string.
Patience is a virtue. While I want an NCAA Championship banner in the Bradley Center too (that 1977 one does look kinda lonely up there), we need to at least give Wojo the chance to grow and get his guys in here. I'd like to think we will be dancing a year from now and I hope we will be. But I also want a program we can be proud of that's on the front pages of our local newsrag here in Chicago because we won something special and not because one of our athletes did things they should ought not be doing.
As a fellow old-timer (1977 grad), I say Amen! The fact that Wojo was able to recruit a top-10 nationally ranked recruiting class as a rookie head coach is reason for a lot of optimism for the future. As you point out, it takes some time. Al inherited a nothing program and went 8-18 and 14-12 in his first two seasons (freshmen were ineligible) and then 21-9. The alternative to having no faith in Wojo is way too horrible to even consider!
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That and the fact that he's put together a nice haul in his first recruiting class.
Every single one of us likely made dumb mistakes their first few months on the job. But it is very likely that we all improved in part due the wisdom that experience brings.
I gave him an incomplete for the year. Let's just see where this goes.
I also recruited McD All-Americans in my first year to make my job performance better too...
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Sultan, I'll attempt to clarify.
There's nothing about the guy that I've seen that warrants the unquestioning faith people have given him. He looked like a rookie coach who often times got outcoached. He looked frustrated and at times not having any answers. Watching the NCAAT and specifically the coaches and teams who were heavy underdogs you could see the difference in coaching on display.
Eastern Washington against Georgetown is a perfect example. Early first half. It's obvious the size advantage that the Hoyas have. Immediately the EWU guards take the ball right at Smith and subsequently Thompson forcing both to sit with two fouls. It's smart basketball and that type of situational awareness was lacking from this year's team. Maybe some of that is on the players, but it's also on the coaching staff as they are the ones responsible for player development. Not everyone on this team was a high level player, but that doesn't disqualify them from understanding the game.
I don't think the team 'underachieved' from an overall record standpoint, but there certainly wasn't any overachieving either. I think the jury is out on Wojo, but I'm hesitant to shower unearned praise on a guy who hasn't shown anything to warrant it.
You're not wrong. But you do realize that's the psychology of new relationships, right? Like every new dating couple, puppy love, etc.
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The alternative to having no faith in Wojo is way too horrible to even consider!
It's called the Dukiet years. And you are right. If that happens, we might as well hire Jean Lenti-Ponsetto after DePaul finally gets smart and fires her.
Wojo is our guy. His recruiting so far is first rate. I was scared to death when things fell apart after Buzz left. I'm not scared anymore and hope we build into something special.
1978 grad here, by the way.
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4 to 5 full years will give you the answer.
Way too early
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4 to 5 full years will give you the answer.
Way too early
Yes and no.
I'd like to see a coach have a run at getting his own guys and having his own seniors before I really place a stamp on him. (he sucks vs he's great) (4 to 5 years).
HOWEVER
In the modern world of college basketball, after 2 or 3 recruiting classes, we have a pretty good indication of the incoming talent, and hopefully after 3 seasons have a decent idea of the coaching abilities.
I'm not saying 3 seasons is DEFINITELY enough, but an AD who is observing closely should have a pretty good idea of where things are headed after 3 seasons... especially at MU. Wojo is building a team and a culture, but he's not really rebuilding the program (like DePaul). A lot of stuff at MU is already in place (faculties, budget, plane, staff, etc.).
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Yes and no.
I'd like to see a coach have a run at getting his own guys and having his own seniors before I really place a stamp on him. (he sucks vs he's great) (4 to 5 years).
HOWEVER
In the modern world of college basketball, after 2 or 3 recruiting classes, we have a pretty good indication of the incoming talent, and hopefully after 3 seasons have a decent idea of the coaching abilities.
I'm not saying 3 seasons is DEFINITELY enough, but an AD who is observing closely should have a pretty good idea of where things are headed after 3 seasons... especially at MU. Wojo is building a team and a culture, but he's not really rebuilding the program (like DePaul). A lot of stuff at MU is already in place (faculties, budget, plane, staff, etc.).
At the end of games, you need a point guard who could make a play, good pass, all things Derrick could not do. Traci Carter or somebody else at that spot will make Wojo a good coach. Coach K almost got kicked out of Duke his first few years, it is never easy the first few years and the cupboard was bare. It was bare for Al until he recruited one player, George Thompson,
then Dean, etc. Might be same recruiting Ellenson, will see.
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How could you have Marquette in the good section. We were terrible in our first year with wojo, worse than what we expected for the most part. And what makes you think we have a solid sustained coach in wojo?
The power of observation. Perspective. "worse than what we expected for the most part" indicates how unrealistic your evaluations can be.
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The season was pretty much what I expected. (I picked 10-14 wins preseason. Honestly, I was expecting closer to 10)
Wojo +'s:
Got the team to compete every night.
Landed a really good recruting class his first time out.
Showed adaptability, giving up the full court pressure, the exclusively man defense, trying different zones.
Established himself as the leader of the program and laid the groundwork for the new culture he is trying to instill.
Wojo's -'s
I am concerned about the experience of his assistants. Too many similar backgrounds. The former head coach was not that good as a head coach.
Technicals at bad times. See Sultan's post.
Other coaches made better adjustments. (again, Sultan has the right of it. Unclear which way the causality goes)
K is a master of taking the air out of the ball down the stretch. Wojo is not.
Never met a cliche he doesn't like.
Committed to skill building rather than conditioning over the summer. It did not translate on the court and most of the players looked scrawny. All with less than a year under the previous regime looked weak.
I am not going to judge him until I see what he does with his own recruits. As the exodus of Buzz's players continues, a caveat needs to be added that we will not know if Wojo can coach until he has had his own recruits and they have had a couple of years to gain experience.
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The season was pretty much what I expected. (I picked 10-14 wins preseason. Honestly, I was expecting closer to 10)
Wojo +'s:
Got the team to compete every night.
Landed a really good recruting class his first time out.
Showed adaptability, giving up the full court pressure, the exclusively man defense, trying different zones.
Established himself as the leader of the program and laid the groundwork for the new culture he is trying to instill.
Wojo's -'s
I am concerned about the experience of his assistants. Too many similar backgrounds. The former head coach was not that good as a head coach.
Technicals at bad times. See Sultan's post.
Other coaches made better adjustments. (again, Sultan has the right of it. Unclear which way the causality goes)
K is a master of taking the air out of the ball down the stretch. Wojo is not.
Never met a cliche he doesn't like.
Committed to skill building rather than conditioning over the summer. It did not translate on the court and most of the players looked scrawny. All with less than a year under the previous regime looked weak.
I am not going to judge him until I see what he does with his own recruits. As the exodus of Buzz's players continues, a caveat needs to be added that we will not know if Wojo can coach until he has had his own recruits and they have had a couple of years to gain experience.
Some real good points here, especially on the strength and conditioning aspect.
Look, in a year we will have a much better idea where this is heading.
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The season was pretty much what I expected. (I picked 10-14 wins preseason. Honestly, I was expecting closer to 10)
Wojo +'s:
Got the team to compete every night.
Landed a really good recruting class his first time out.
Showed adaptability, giving up the full court pressure, the exclusively man defense, trying different zones.
Established himself as the leader of the program and laid the groundwork for the new culture he is trying to instill.
Wojo's -'s
I am concerned about the experience of his assistants. Too many similar backgrounds. The former head coach was not that good as a head coach.
Technicals at bad times. See Sultan's post.
Other coaches made better adjustments. (again, Sultan has the right of it. Unclear which way the causality goes)
K is a master of taking the air out of the ball down the stretch. Wojo is not.
Never met a cliche he doesn't like.
Committed to skill building rather than conditioning over the summer. It did not translate on the court and most of the players looked scrawny. All with less than a year under the previous regime looked weak.
I am not going to judge him until I see what he does with his own recruits. As the exodus of Buzz's players continues, a caveat needs to be added that we will not know if Wojo can coach until he has had his own recruits and they have had a couple of years to gain experience.
It was somewhat obvious Buzz recruited the athletes and then turned them into super athletes while at MU. I wonder if Wojo felt he had to focus on skills this summer d/t his preference for those types of players. Hopefully that would mean going forward he would recruit the skills/fundamental players of out HS, thereby allowing more time with conditioning while at MU.
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Yes and no.
I'd like to see a coach have a run at getting his own guys and having his own seniors before I really place a stamp on him. (he sucks vs he's great) (4 to 5 years).
HOWEVER
In the modern world of college basketball, after 2 or 3 recruiting classes, we have a pretty good indication of the incoming talent, and hopefully after 3 seasons have a decent idea of the coaching abilities.
I'm not saying 3 seasons is DEFINITELY enough, but an AD who is observing closely should have a pretty good idea of where things are headed after 3 seasons... especially at MU. Wojo is building a team and a culture, but he's not really rebuilding the program (like DePaul). A lot of stuff at MU is already in place (faculties, budget, plane, staff, etc.).
I agree with this. By the end of season three we will have an awfully good idea what we have.
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I agree with this. By the end of season three we will have an awfully good idea what we have.
We'll have an idea from a macro level.
From a mico-level, anything can happen. If Vander misses that lay-up against Davidson, is Buzz a bad coach? If Wojo loses some close games next year, does that mean he's a bad coach?
Sometimes fans (including me) get hung up on the micro stuff and miss the big picture stuff.
Here is the big picture stuff (no particular order):
#1 Can wojo identify and sign talented players? (looks like yes, but need to see)
#2 Can wojo develop and retain those players? (need to see)
#3 Can wojo develop a wining strategy and implement it (both pre-game and in-game)? (saw some good and bad)
#4 Are the players graduating and do they fit the vision that Marquette has for it's student athletes? (looks good, but need to see more)
The number of wins, blown wins, close losses, last second shots, missed free throws, etc. etc. etc. are all too granular unless we have enough data or a pattern to make them significant (ie MU loses 20 close games in 3 years)
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K is a master of taking the air out of the ball down the stretch. Wojo is not.
Taking the air out of the ball to shorten the game works a lot better when you have players that can score when necessary, or at least get off a decent shot. When you have as many offensively-challenged players as we had this year that struggle to get off a shot, you need to score any way you can.
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No change to my post to start this thread, St. John's and DePaul remain in the Have Not category after their two stupid hires.
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Speaking of the Have Nots, could someone please wake up the powers that be at Seton Hall, and tell them they have lousy coach who needs to get replaced? What is wrong with them?