MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on March 01, 2015, 04:29:36 PM
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1. The team didn't quit.
2. It looked like they had for a while, but they dug deep and played with pride down the stretch.
3. Not enough intelligence, but pride.
4. Not enough weapons.
5. Briefly scared a tourney team at their gym.
6. Rebounding was atrocious.
7. Juan still looks like he is limping.
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1. The team didn't quit.
2. It looked like they had for a while, but they dug deep and played with pride down the stretch.
3. Not enough intelligence, but pride.
4. Not enough weapons.
5. Briefly scared a tourney team at their gym.
6. Rebounding was atrocious.
7. Juan still looks like he is limping.
8. Excited about Duane next year.
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Outrebounded by 20.
-11 pts from the FT line.
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End of a ten game win streak versus PC. Duane is gonna be a star.
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Jajuan needs to figure something out, it's hard to see how he'll be any sort of reliable contributor in the future.
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Duane will be fun to watch, no doubt.
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Injured Juan shouldn't play at all. Terrible out there
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Carlino and Derrick the leading rebounders for MU. Sometimes stats tell the story.
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27 three attempts, 50 percent of shots attempted
45 to 25 rebounds, 19 to 6 offensive
6 for 12 free throws.
Stats like that and you won't win too often.
Fought hard but a PF and PG are needed, cause Du Wilson can light it up when hot. Russ Smith like.......
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Carlino and Derrick the leading rebounders for MU. Sometimes stats tell the story.
Fischer has to develop into a bigger presence on the glass.
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9. terrible rebounding.
10. Terrible interior D.
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Fischer has to develop into a bigger presence on the glass.
Right now he just need to stop getting in foul trouble...
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Jajuan needs to figure something out, it's hard to see how he'll be any sort of reliable contributor in the future.
According to resident moron Ners, JJJ's problems are a result of bad coaching. I see a very overrated HS player who struggles at the high major level college level.
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Good performances by Duane, Matt and Derrick. OK by Steve.
Luke and JuJuan have work to do....
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Jajuan needs to figure something out, it's hard to see how he'll be any sort of reliable contributor in the future.
I disagree. I think he has finally started to figure it out. He has struggled the last two games (after really doing well), because of the physical nature of the opponent.
He just isn't strong enough right now to really play his game against physical opponents. In contrast though to earlier in the season, he didn't force as much anymore and lets the game come to him.
An offseason getting stronger and I see him being a big contributor for us.
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JJJ and Cohen couldn't have been much worse. I still think both will contribute in the future.
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I disagree. I think he has finally started to figure it out. He has struggled the last two games (after really doing well), because of the physical nature of the opponent.
He just isn't strong enough right now to really play his game against physical opponents. In contrast though to earlier in the season, he didn't force as much anymore and lets the game come to him.
An offseason getting stronger and I see him being a big contributor for us.
He has had far fewer mental mistakes over the last few games. Just isn't there yet physically.
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I disagree. I think he has finally started to figure it out. He has struggled the last two games (after really doing well), because of the physical nature of the opponent.
He just isn't strong enough right now to really play his game against physical opponents. In contrast though to earlier in the season, he didn't force as much anymore and lets the game come to him.
An offseason getting stronger and I see him being a big contributor for us.
He is a slasher type who cannot shoot. He is 37% from field and 21% from three. As a SG he needs to improve that along with strength otherwise a new recruit who can will see floor time. Wish him the best in off season.
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http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588475
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Our rebounding is non-existent. Todd needs to bulk these guys up and we have to hope Heldt hits the weight room quickly after this season ends for him.
Du is going to be a monster. As TAMU said, I'm so happy he redshirted last year.
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He has had far fewer mental mistakes over the last few games. Just isn't there yet physically.
He has to get bigger and start finishing at the rim or become a much better shooter. I'm not holding my breath on either of those.
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Our rebounding is non-existent. Todd needs to bulk these guys up and we have to hope Heldt hits the weight room quickly after this season ends for him.
Du is going to be a monster. As TAMU said, I'm so happy he redshirted last year.
That's why I'd be happy with O'field. Not a great shooter but he's got a 40+ inch vertical and would provide some much needed muscle. Way stronger than our current 2/3's
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another game another loss. my thoughts are thank God there are only 3 games left in this wasted season. besides the play of duane and occasionally luke not much to be excited about with the players on this team.
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He has to get bigger and start finishing at the rim or become a much better shooter. I'm not holding my breath on either of those.
Agreed. Duane and Fischer are the only two returning guys I'm counting on as contributors next year. Taylor looks like he will be a solid backup 4.
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Invites to the MU BBall team for 2015-16: Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer (needs to improve significantly), Cohen (needs to improve significantly). All the rest can find a new team (probably Div 3) or transfer. That is the reality of this pitiful team
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End of a ten game win streak versus PC. Duane is gonna be a star.
We lost to them in 2OT toward the end of last season.
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All through this year there hasn't been a true semblance of a legitimate offense. Not to sound harsh on Derek and Juan, but they simply have not been the level of talented senior leadership to teach the newcomers (Sandy, Luke, Duane and JJJ) how to win by example. Other than Derek, no one has had even starter minutes before this year. And playing four on five all year is no way to develop an offense. There is no wonder that Matt, and lately Duane, have had to work to throw up threes, as that is really Marquette's best chance to score. I would not write off JJJ. because as much as he is not a finished product by any means, he has improved over the year. He has played enough to be taught the right way, seeing how over penetration and wild shots are not the way to go if you want to play high major competition. Duane is a red shirt freshman who had no experience before this year, and Sandy shows improvement over the course of his freshman year. They all can use an off season knowing when and how to feed Luke, and when and how Luke should pass back out to an open teammate.
It is impossible to gauge this "team" to extrapolate what the team will be next year (at the least we hope they have a point guard who can at least hit foul shots and be a legitimate threat to hit from the outside when open), because one would hope there will be major changes. We can only hope (if not expect) that with coaching and instruction the players who will return will be in a position to make better use of the remaining two or three years of their college careers.
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End of a ten game win streak versus PC. Duane is gonna be a star.
We lost to PC last year....in OT IIRC
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It's also somewhat sad that a RS Freshman seems to be the closest thing we have to a vocal leader.
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Invites to the MU BBall team for 2015-16: Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer (needs to improve significantly), Cohen (needs to improve significantly). All the rest can find a new team (probably Div 3) or transfer. That is the reality of this pitiful team
unfortunately we have so few players that we need everyone back but you are right. very little talent right now on this team and none of these players besides duane and luke (maybe cohen) have shown much hope for the future. wojo better hope he hits a few home runs with his recruiting
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We lost to them in 2OT toward the end of last season.
Damn, that is right. I was looking at the Wiki and it wasn't updated through that loss and I didn't notice the year. Although painful, that was a damn good college game.
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Luke will be fine once het gets some help......needs to get stronger and develope his game just like everyone else but he is already a good low post scorer and shot blocker
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Carlino and Duane were the only players who cared. Wojo needs to recruit bigger, tougher, meaner players that can dominate. This team plays like high school sophomores. It's sad to see the team play decline as the year goes on. It's our worse year in a long time. It's hard to think next year will be any better. Wojo seems to be in way over his head.
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Luke had 2 rebounds in 25 minutes. That has to change.
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Carlino and Duane were the only players who cared. Wojo needs to recruit bigger, tougher, meaner players that can dominate. This team plays like high school sophomores. It's sad to see the team play decline as the year goes on. It's our worse year in a long time. It's hard to think next year will be any better. Wojo seems to be in way over his head.
agree completely. wojo is definitely over his head with this team but in all fairness a lot of coaches would be. duane, luke, and carlino are the only big east caliber players, the rest are at horizon league level
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All the rest can find a new team (probably Div 3) or transfer. That is the reality of this pitiful team
You mean both of them? I hope they stay; don't want three returning players and the only upperclassman to have part of a season in total experience.
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It's also somewhat sad that a RS Freshman seems to be the closest thing we have to a vocal leader.
I thought that one of Derrick's redeeming qualities was outstanding leadership?
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I always love to see the double-digit posters come out of hiding.
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I always love to see the double-digit posters come out of hiding.
yes because only people with lots of posts follow the program or care. could be that some are new to this site or only posts thoughts during and after games....
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agree completely. wojo is definitely over his head with this team but in all fairness a lot of coaches would be. duane, luke, and carlino are the only big east caliber players, the rest are at horizon league level
The only grade I can give Wojo for his game performance as a coach is an incomplete.
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I thought that one of Derrick's redeeming qualities was outstanding leadership?
It is. That and the fact that he has higher FG% and 3-pt%, a better A/TO ratio and is a better rebounder and defender than a certain 4-star guard who has been getting 25+ mpg consistently....
Plenty of guys to criticize lately, but Derrick isn't one of them.
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I blame this disaster on the Marquette leadership all the way up to President and AD. MU has been successful due to the efforts of some incredible coaches including o'Neill, Crean and Buzz. I have to say Buzz may have turned out to be a user/abuser for his own benefit. As in any business, and MU BBall is an extremely successful business, results matter. The reality is that we may have three or four players next year that will make a difference for a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ in the country on BBall. The only way for MU alumini can make a true impact is to hurt MU in the pocket book. Stop going to games ! Stop donating money ! Challenge the status quo ! I need to see more desire from Wojo as I saw today in the breaks. He has to be frustrated beyond belief. Dude, carry this energy over to delivering a team that has that same energy. It appears to me, most players are happy to have scholarships. Winning Matters ! What we have now is not good enough for me !!!!
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OK, exactly how is this Lovell or Scholl's fault? Lovell has only been in office about ten months, and School has only been around his September. What exactly should either of them done to change the course of this "disaster?"
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I blame this disaster on the Marquette leadership all the way up to President and AD. MU has been successful due to the efforts of some incredible coaches including o'Neill, Crean and Buzz. I have to say Buzz may have turned out to be a user/abuser for his own benefit. As in any business, and MU BBall is an extremely successful business, results matter. The reality is that we may have three or four players next year that will make a difference for a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ in the country on BBall. The only way for MU alumini can make a true impact is to hurt MU in the pocket book. Stop going to games ! Stop donating money ! Challenge the status quo ! I need to see more desire from Wojo as I saw today in the breaks. He has to be frustrated beyond belief. Dude, carry this energy over to delivering a team that has that same energy. It appears to me, most players are happy to have scholarships. Winning Matters ! What we have now is not good enough for me !!!!
Do not step back from the ledge
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The color guy mentioned today that Derrick has a 4-1 a/TO ratio. Today, 5-1. Shame he is such a lousy shooter. If he was an average shooter/ft shooter/3 pt shooter, ......grumblemumble.
JJJ got >25 minutes today. Last two game combined: 50 minutes, 1-10 shooting. Oddly enough, I haven't given up on him yet. I see a young guy getting worn out playing against physically stronger players. That can be fixed, but he has to do it.
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Stopping by this board after a loss:
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Shocked-Troy-Walks-Into-Fire-With-Pizza-Community.gif)
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I blame this disaster on the Marquette leadership all the way up to President and AD. MU has been successful due to the efforts of some incredible coaches including o'Neill, Crean and Buzz. I have to say Buzz may have turned out to be a user/abuser for his own benefit. As in any business, and MU BBall is an extremely successful business, results matter. The reality is that we may have three or four players next year that will make a difference for a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ in the country on BBall. The only way for MU alumini can make a true impact is to hurt MU in the pocket book. Stop going to games ! Stop donating money ! Challenge the status quo ! I need to see more desire from Wojo as I saw today in the breaks. He has to be frustrated beyond belief. Dude, carry this energy over to delivering a team that has that same energy. It appears to me, most players are happy to have scholarships. Winning Matters ! What we have now is not good enough for me !!!!
SMH. Geez I hope you're not an alumni.
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We lost to them in 2OT toward the end of last season.
He's still thinking about 51 years of futility, sometimes things get lost.
I love ya Blackheart....I'm teasing
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Invites to the MU BBall team for 2015-16: Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer (needs to improve significantly), Cohen (needs to improve significantly). All the rest can find a new team (probably Div 3) or transfer. That is the reality of this pitiful team
D3? Come on dude, you're already approaching silly talk...that's beyond silly.
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http://marquette.scout.com/story/1522515-providence-77-marquette-66?s=415
Wojo's post game with Homer and Mac.
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He's still thinking about 51 years of futility, sometimes things get lost.
I love ya Blackheart....I'm teasing
You really still think this team is better than that Dukiet team with Tony Smith, Pop Sims, Powell, et al? On track for the first 20 loss season since...51 years ago. Only the second 20 loss season in MU's history if the losses continue...let's hope you win this one.
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According to resident moron Ners, JJJ's problems are a result of bad coaching. I see a very overrated HS player who struggles at the high major level college level.
Who cares what Ners would say? He gowne, and we're all blessed for it.
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Wojo has Trophies for everybody !!!! Taylor is not D1 talent so he is invited to move on. Worse than Juan. Cohen and Luke questionable. Hope we have better players to support the Ellensons. That's the facts. This team sucks ! Diener was my favorite player of all time. He must be embarrassed.
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And Mcderjim you are invited to go back into the hole from which you crawled...
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Wojo inherited this mess he did not create it. He gets a hall pass. He can hardly game plan with the rosters with which he is forced to compete. I don't know how that gets misconstrued.
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Wojo inherited this mess he did not create it. He gets a hall pass. He can hardly game plan with the rosters with which he is forced to compete. I don't know how that gets misconstrued.
yup. As much as we love mu, we aren't duke, kansas, or kentucky. We rebuild instead of reload. Unfortunately that's what we're going through. Might take a few years but we'll be back
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Wojo inherited this mess he did not create it. He gets a hall pass. He can hardly game plan with the rosters with which he is forced to compete. I don't know how that gets misconstrued.
Yes, Wojo inherited this mess, which we can thank the phony cowboy. But he has not done much with it. So far, he has done a good job on the recruiting trail. By the end of next year, after we see the performance next year, and his 2nd recruiting class.
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It is. That and the fact that he has higher FG% and 3-pt%, a better A/TO ratio and is a better rebounder and defender than a certain 4-star guard who has been getting 25+ mpg consistently....
Plenty of guys to criticize lately, but Derrick isn't one of them.
Why is he beyond criticism? He's terrible period. Next year will be addition by subtraction.
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You really still think this team is better than that Dukiet team with Tony Smith, Pop Sims, Powell, et al? On track for the first 20 loss season since...51 years ago. Only the second 20 loss season in MU's history if the losses continue...let's hope you win this one.
We play more games now than we did then, so saying 20 losses isn't a fair comparison.
Tony Smith was a very good player, but only a sophomore for the 1987-88 Bob Dukiet team went 10-18 (only played 28 games)...Pop Sims was arrested, Tony Reeder academically ineligible, Powell was a freshman.
That team lost to:
Iona
Fordham
Loyola Ill at home (they were 13-16 that year)
Loyola Marymount at home (yes, they were good that year, going 1-1 in the NCAAs)
Evansville
Valparaiso (12-16 that year)
Creighton at home (.500 team that year)
Cleveland State (at home) (NIT team that year)
Dayton (13-18 team that year)
DePaul twice
Virginia Tech (at home)
Notre Dame twice
K-State
Minnesota
etc, etc
I think the schedules were not comparable, IMO.
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Wojo has Trophies for everybody !!!! Taylor is not D1 talent so he is invited to move on. Worse than Juan. Cohen and Luke questionable. Hope we have better players to support the Ellensons. That's the facts. This team sucks ! Diener was my favorite player of all time. He must be embarrassed.
Taylor was offered by Iowa, DePaul, Xavier, Missouri, Northwestern, and others. He is most certainly a DI talent, but unfortunately injuries have hurt him.
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I think the schedules were not comparable, IMO.
Agreed. In 87-88, we played a mostly mid-major schedule, and had plenty of losses against sub-.500 teams. This year, we are in one of the top conferences in the country and had non-conference games against top 25 teams. By the end, close to half of our games will be against teams that Dance.
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Why is he beyond criticism? He's terrible period. Next year will be addition by subtraction.
Kinda of like when you decide not to post.
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Kinda of like when you decide not to post.
Aww you're hurting my feelings Scoop Stalker.
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JJJ and Cohen couldn't have been much worse. I still think both will contribute in the future.
I think Cohen has a very bright future, JJJ not sure.
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Aww you're hurting my feelings Scoop Stalker.
Says the guy who responded (with the same drivel) in two minutes and seven seconds.
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Kinda of like when you decide not to post.
+1
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Why is he beyond criticism? He's terrible period. Next year will be addition by subtraction.
Nobody is beyond criticism. You just happen to be in the habit of continually criticizing one of the more productive and consistent players on our team. Yeah that's unfortunate, but it's true.
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Taylor was offered by Iowa, DePaul, Xavier, Missouri, Northwestern, and others. He is most certainly a DI talent, but unfortunately injuries have hurt him.
Not only injuries but playing out of position. There are flashes of real talent from Teve when he can play with Luke. Next year Teve will be a quality contributor IMHO
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That 1987 team played (in today's conferences): three B1G teams, one SEC, five ACC games, one Big 12, two A10, and four Big East games. And the cupcakes were fewer and better (Horizon, MVC, MAC). Those Loyola Marmount teams under Westhead were very, very good as well. So, the SOS would be very close if you consider the cupcakes MU played this season.
Yet, this team has lost more in a row in total and at home, something not seen since 1963-64, which is clearly MU's worst season in its history. Losing 20 is horrible in an era, more games or not. You cannot explain that away especially as the margins of the losses are increasing at the end here. Both teams had attrition but the 1987 team was deeper with a full roster, granted the makeup was skewed to seniors and freshmen.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1963
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Wojo needs to hear the extreme dissatisfaction from the alumni...not the excuses for poor performance. Need to keep him on his toes since he's in a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ on its program. Watching this years team with turnovers, poor ball handling and poor game closing, I'm not sure he can earn his high salary.
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So, the SOS would be very close if you consider the cupcakes MU played this season.
According to both Pomeroy and Sagarin we have played the 12th most difficult schedule in the country this season....I doubt you could say the Dukiet teamed played something close to that.
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That 1987 team played (in today's conferences): three B1G teams, one SEC, five ACC games, one Big 12, two A10, and four Big East games.
But back then, many of our opponents were still mid-majors. Pointing out that they're in major conferences today is irrelevant to where they were in '87.
Kinda doubt you'd find our SOS was 12 that season....
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That 1987 team played (in today's conferences): three B1G teams, one SEC, five ACC games, one Big 12, two A10, and four Big East games. And the cupcakes were fewer and better (Horizon, MVC, MAC). Those Loyola Marmount teams under Westhead were very, very good as well. So, the SOS would be very close if you consider the cupcakes MU played this season.
Yet, this team has lost more in a row in total and at home, something not seen since 1963-64, which is clearly MU's worst season in its history. Losing 20 is horrible in an era, more games or not. You cannot explain that away especially as the margins of the losses are increasing at the end here. Both teams had attrition but the 1987 team was deeper with a full roster, granted the makeup was skewed to seniors and freshmen.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1963
Sorry, again I just cannot see how you are comparing the too. It's wonderful to say those teams came from those conferences. Northwestern was beyond bad. Minnesota was terrible, finishing 10-18 and 9th place in the Big Ten that year but managed to beat us by 24 points that season. Tennessee was marginal at best.
Sportsreference rating system rated us 144th out of 290 that year.
This year's team, 77th out of 351.
There is just no comparison.
Maybe the better way to look at it instead of assigning what conference they played in which doesn't mean much. How many teams in 1987-88 were NCAA tournament bound vs this year's opponents. I realize there are 4 extra teams admitted today, but let's take a look
1987-88 NCAA tournament opponents for MU. 6 games against NCAA participants. DePaul (2), Notre Dame (2), Loyola Marymount, Kansas State. That's it
2014-15 NCAA tournament opponents for MU (likely). 13 games and I'm not including Xavier in there whom I think will make it. If they do, that's 15 games. Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Providence (2), Georgetown (2), Villanova (2), St. John's (2), Butler (2). Most experts think we have 6 teams going....that would make 15 games.
I just don't see how you can compare the two....I really don't.
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So, the SOS would be very close if you consider the cupcakes MU played this season.
According to both Pomeroy and Sagarin we have played the 12th most difficult schedule in the country this season....I doubt you could say the Dukiet teamed played something close to that.
You are correct
sportsreference says in 1987-88 we played the 98th best schedule out of 290.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/1988.html
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But back then, many of our opponents were still mid-majors. Pointing out that they're in major conferences today is irrelevant to where they were in '87.
Kinda doubt you'd find our SOS was 12 that season....
Except Miami, FL, who was an independent in basketball then or high mids, all those majors were majors back then. That team had Tito Horford and was coached by Bill Foster. The exception is the new Big East, but DePaul and Xavier made NCAA runs then. CU was mid-major then, so I will give you that one.
Where do you see this year's SOS is 12 this year? I see it is at 39-42 depending on the service.
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Wojo has Trophies for everybody !!!! Taylor is not D1 talent so he is invited to move on. Worse than Juan. Cohen and Luke questionable. Hope we have better players to support the Ellensons. That's the facts. This team sucks ! Diener was my favorite player of all time. He must be embarrassed.
Taylor has been playing out of position at the 5 this year. He has shown to be a good offensive rebounder and I do think injuries have hurt his progression.
Sandy is a true freshman, I think he'll be a great 3 point shooter for us in the future.
Big guys like Luke typically take longer to develop than guards. He will get stronger and be more dominant in the future. Look how good he was against the bad teams in his first couple games. He will do that against better competition, its a part of growth. Look at a guy like Kaminsky as a sophomore. He was nothing and played behind berggeren. Now he's UWs top player as an upper classman.
We all expected a rough season, it has been frustrating. I for one think we have some quality pieces and can turn a corner next year.
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I think Cohen has a very bright future, JJJ not sure.
I do not see either of them with a bright future, maybe in another sport, but not basketball. By your sophomore year, you either have it or not. Vander was an exception not the rule. JJJ is way to weak physically right now, horrible form on his shot and probably a basket case mentally reading his press clippings, there is a reason Memphis did not go after him hard. Sandy needs
a red-shirt year, he is way to skinny, not physical at all, needs 2 years to mature physically. Plus Sandy takes 10 minutes to get his shot off, nor quick enough to get to the hole. I am really hoping there is another forward coming in, maybe the Ellenson boys will both start. Wally is at least taking a year off to maybe improve his game, should be able to rebound as he has shown he has Olympic hops, hope that can translate to the basketball court as he did nothing in Minny the first two years. Fisher, Duane Wilson, Henry are the only for sure starters next year with Cheatham an inside track, the other who knows. The next 2 recruits for Wojo might come in and start.
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Sorry, again I just cannot see how you are comparing the too. It's wonderful to say those teams came from those conferences. Northwestern was beyond bad. Minnesota was terrible, finishing 10-18 and 9th place in the Big Ten that year but managed to beat us by 24 points that season. Tennessee was marginal at best.
Sportsreference rating system rated us 144th out of 290 that year.
This year's team, 77th out of 351.
There is just no comparison.
Maybe the better way to look at it instead of assigning what conference they played in which doesn't mean much. How many teams in 1987-88 were NCAA tournament bound vs this year's opponents. I realize there are 4 extra teams admitted today, but let's take a look
1987-88 NCAA tournament opponents for MU. 6 games against NCAA participants. DePaul (2), Notre Dame (2), Loyola Marymount, Kansas State. That's it
2014-15 NCAA tournament opponents for MU (likely). 13 games and I'm not including Xavier in there whom I think will make it. If they do, that's 15 games. Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Providence (2), Georgetown (2), Villanova (2), St. John's (2), Butler (2). Most experts think we have 6 teams going....that would make 15 games.
I just don't see how you can compare the two....I really don't.
You missed Xavier making the NCAA's back then as well who MU beat...and GT a and UT are bad this year too like those majors you listed.
As for SOS, that gets us to a fairer comparison but you most also admit the metric is padded by playing those Big East teams twice, and with the larger conferences today competitively. But the main point is, MU isn't winning: longest total losing and home losing streaks in 51 years and counting. Second or third worst teams in MU's history no matter how you slice it. Who cares about SOS to discern who is worst?
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Except Miami, FL, who was an independent in basketball then or high mids, all those majors were majors back then. That team had Tito Horford and was coached by Bill Foster. The exception is the new Big East, but DePaul and Xavier made NCAA runs then. CU was mid-major then, so I will give you that one.
Where do you see this year's SOS is 12 this year? I see it is at 39-42 depending on the service.
We didn't play Xavier in 1987-88 season.
SOS is 14th this year using apples to apples comparison on sports reference http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2015.html Again, in 1987-88 it was 98th with fewer total teams, meaning the placement in which decile we were located is even worse compared to today's schedule and 351 teams.
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You missed Xavier making the NCAA's back then as well who MU beat...and GT a and UT are bad this year too like those majors you listed.
As for SOS, that gets us to a fairer comparison but you most also admit the metric is padded by playing those Big East teams twice, and with the larger conferences today competitively. But the main point is, MU isn't winning: longest total losing and home losing streaks in 51 years and counting. Second or third worst teams in MU's history no matter how you slice it. Who cares about SOS to discern who is worst?
Correct, I missed Xavier. So that's 7 NCAA teams in '87-'88 vs 13 to 15 this year.
Yes, we get the benefit of playing those teams in conference twice this year, but that also proves the point. That '87-88 team playing this year's schedule would win 5 to 6 games total. This year's team playing that schedule of the '87-88 team wins 16 to 18 games. The competition level totally different.
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We didn't play Xavier in 1987-88 season.
SOS is 14th this year using apples to apples comparison on sports reference http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2015.html Again, in 1987-88 it was 98th with fewer total teams, meaning the placement in which decile we were located is even worse compared to today's schedule and 351 teams.
Played Xavier on 12/5/87. http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987
Your buddy Jerry Palm says MU's SOS is 39. So, I doubt those calculations are apples to apples. I trust Jerry.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology/sos
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Some people here are whiny little babies.
We suck. Anybody with a clue knew we were going to suck. It sucks to suck.
We are in good hands. Players improve. It can only get better. And it will get better.
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SOS conversation - all depends how you define.
If you want to use RPI... we're sitting at #33 at the moment. Of course, "strength of schedule" per the RPI isn't a logical measurement of strength/difficulty/level of challenge (http://latenighthoops.com/gophers-schedule-will-punish-rpi-2014-15/#.VPPkvPnF-6M). Some of the predictive models references earlier are generally better, though they have their flaws.
Anyway, this Providence game. It's another one where we out-shoot the opponent by a comfortable margin - usually that's good enough to win basketball games. Both Georgetown games we were the better shooting team by far, but lost... didn't win any of the other four factors in those games.
Today, got beat up on the boards in an extreme way and sent them to the line far often then we got to the stripe.
Some of our issues will be lessened over the next 8-9 months... but by how much is the question.
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Sportsreference rating system rated us 144th out of 290 that year.
This year's team, 77th out of 351.
There is just no comparison.
Any rating system that claims we're the 77th best of 351 D1 teams this year is totally worthless. In November and December, maybe. Right now we're not in the top 150.
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sports-reference NCAA basketball metrics are absolute trash. Just awful.
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Wojo needs to hear the extreme dissatisfaction from the alumni...not the excuses for poor performance. Need to keep him on his toes since he's in a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ on its program. Watching this years team with turnovers, poor ball handling and poor game closing, I'm not sure he can earn his high salary.
Ners found another link
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Wojo needs to hear the extreme dissatisfaction from the alumni...not the excuses for poor performance. Need to keep him on his toes since he's in a program that spends Top 10 $$$$ on its program. Watching this years team with turnovers, poor ball handling and poor game closing, I'm not sure he can earn his high salary.
Another good way to get back at the administration is for you to stop posting. That'll teach 'em!
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Our roster was better in 1987, but the team was a much bigger disaster back then. This years team is VERY thin on talent, but they're competing for the most part.
Do people really think Wojo doesn't know what he's doing? He's been working under Coach K for 15 years! Buzz learned at the knee of Billy Gillespie!
This season has been a disappointment, but I am 100 percent confident we are on the right track.
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Played Xavier on 12/5/87. http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987
Your buddy Jerry Palm says MU's SOS is 39. So, I doubt those calculations are apples to apples. I trust Jerry.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology/sos
They are apples to apples. I'm using the same rating source for both.
Sports reference in 1987-88 using the same formula rated MU's schedule 98th out of 290. For this year's team, same source, it is rated 12th.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/1988.html 98th SOS
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/2015.html 12th SOS
If we had Jerry's 1987-88 SOS to compare to this year's (where he has us 39), then that would be great...but we don't. Though having said that, I'll send Jerry a note today to see if he has that information from way back in the day.
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sports-reference NCAA basketball metrics are absolute trash. Just awful.
They may be, but we don't have any other barometer and it's still an apples to apples comparison. Same formula today vs 20+ years ago.
Point is, the schedule we played in 1987-88 compared to the schedule we played this year is not even close, yet the records are nearly identical. I just don't see how with any common sense some think that 1987-88 team is somehow better than this one. IMO.
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They may be, but we don't have any other barometer and it's still an apples to apples comparison. Same formula today vs 20+ years ago.
Point is, the schedule we played in 1987-88 compared to the schedule we played this year is not even close, yet the records are nearly identical. I just don't see how with any common sense some thinks that 1987-88 team is somehow better than this one. IMO.
You are 100% right, Chicos.
There is promise now. There was nothing then.
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More apples to apples. People may not like the RPI, but its comparing apples to apples
1987-88 team RPI was 204 out of 290 30th percentile (better than 30% of NCAA teams)
2014-15 team RPI to date is 140 out of 351 61st percentile (better than 61% of NCAA teams)
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/88
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/15
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Bad basketball is bad basketball. We have been a bit spoiled, and I certainly understand the frustration. If things are this bad in two years I will be leading the charge for change, until then I won't be drawn into a "which sad team was worse" debate.
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More apples to apples. People may not like the RPI, but its comparing apples to apples
1987-88 team RPI was 204 out of 290 30th percentile (better than 30% of NCAA teams)
2014-15 team RPI to date is 140 out of 351 61st percentile (better than 61% of NCAA teams)
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/88
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/15
Not apples to apples & bad data. Bbstate's RPI info is bar none THE WORST I've ever seen. Completely broken. Awful.
RPI has also changed over the years in bball
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This season has been a disappointment, but I am 100 percent confident we are on the right track.
Make that 95 percent confident and this is where I am.
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More apples to apples. People may not like the RPI, but its comparing apples to apples
1987-88 team RPI was 204 out of 290 30th percentile (better than 30% of NCAA teams)
2014-15 team RPI to date is 140 out of 351 61st percentile (better than 61% of NCAA teams)
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/88
http://www.bbstate.com/teams/MARQ/schedule/15
Maybe we can all agree that 87-88 sucked, and this year is fast approaching it. We can change the chant to "We are mini Dukiet!"
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Sagarin now has our schedule as 8th toughest....http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2015/team/
Pomeroy still has it at 12....http://kenpom.com
If you want to take the average of the computer rankings for MU this year it is 112....http://www.masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm
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Maybe we can all agree that 87-88 sucked, and this year is fast approaching it. We can change the chant to "We are mini Dukiet!"
It has not been a good year, but it's also not the worst in 50 years either. We were playing double A ball in the late 80's.
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Looking forward to next year and hoping that in out timeouts we will have more guys in shorts than in suits, which was decidedly not the case in Providence.
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Jerry Palm only has data going back to the early 1990's, so that option is out.
Sagarin doesn't have anything archived that far back. NCAA doesn't either.
Only two sources I can find are those that I posted.
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I don't think we will settle the SOS debate unless Chico can get Jerry to calculate 1987-88. However, if MU a loses out (let's hope not but it is trending that way, especially with the injuries):
>> MU will finish 8-9 at home and 1-9 on the road. Piano Man's band finished 9-7 at home and 1-11 on the road.
>>MU's home wins this year were over UT Martin, NJIT, ASU, Alabama A&M, North Dakota, Morgan State, Providence and Creighton. In 1987-88, the home wins were over Hartford, Xavier, Western Michigan, Northwestern, Air Force, Miami FL, Wake Forest, Canisius and Dayton.
>>The 87-88 team's longest loss streak was 6 in a row, with the home loss streak being 4 in a row. MU will potentially lose 8 in a row (6 currently) and 7 in a row at home (5 now).
So we can argue SOS metrics, but they are less relevant if you don't win....and the home wins by this team are mainly over dogs except that Providence win (ASU will be .500). If MU can win two more to go with the neutral site wins, then I will defer to the Dukiet year. However, this year's home record is simply the tie breaker for me.
Whether 51 years or 28, we are a spoiled bunch.
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FWIW, the current losing streak is at 5, not 6.
Is this team bad? Yeah, they are. But it's a threadbare roster with 4 guys (Derrick, Juan, Steve, Jajuan) that on most high-major teams are at best bench players. On this team they average 106.6 minutes. Over half our minutes are going to guys that, in the words of Dante, "Aren't even supposed to be here today."
I love the effort. Those 4 guys have all played over their heads at time and kept us in games we had no right to be in. I don't have clear memories of 1988, but I can't compare the two simply because Dukiet had a full compliment of players and had a full year to get his system established.
No, this kind of losing isn't fun for anyone, but there's a lot of promise here, there's been a lot of improvement, and there's reasons to be optimistic. In a season this bad, I'll definitely take optimism for the future over the downward spiral that 87-88 seemed to be.
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This year's schedule is just far superior in all respects. Most of those teams were just not good. I've seen both seasons. 2014-15 wins easily. And, don't throw ome contrived facts at me.
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FWIW, the current losing streak is at 5, not 6.
The current longest losing streak is six earlier in the season, broken by the SH road win. If MU loses out the next three, it would top that (two at home and one in the BET) to make 8.
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But it's a threadbare roster with 4 guys (Derrick, Juan, Steve, Jajuan) that on most high-major teams are at best bench players.
Jajuan? Bench player?
If he were getting 35 mpg, we'd be 28-0 right now!!!
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This year's schedule is just far superior in all respects. Most of those teams were just not good. I've seen both seasons. 2014-15 wins easily. And, don't throw ome contrived facts at me.
What are the "contrived facts"? The quality of the teams MU lost to this year or the lack of quality home wins? Pomeroy rankings of the home wins: 167, 178, 63, 330, 319, 338, 41, 95. Throw in a St. John's and a DU win, and the argument is settled, I agree.
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What are the "contrived facts"? The quality of the teams MU lost to this year or the lack of quality home wins? Pomeroy rankings of the home wins: 167, 178, 63, 330, 319, 338, 41, 95. Throw in a St. John's and a DU win, and the argument is settled, I agree.
Aren't you also ignoring a bunch of OT or games lost by one possession this year as well?
The 87-88 team was rarely in games they lost. There is simply no comparison.
Jerry doesn't have the data to replicate it going back that far....he started his RPI work in the early 1990's.
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I don't think we will settle the SOS debate unless Chico can get Jerry to calculate 1987-88. However, if MU a loses out (let's hope not but it is trending that way, especially with the injuries):
>> MU will finish 8-9 at home and 1-9 on the road. Piano Man's band finished 9-7 at home and 1-11 on the road.
>>MU's home wins this year were over UT Martin, NJIT, ASU, Alabama A&M, North Dakota, Morgan State, Providence and Creighton. In 1987-88, the home wins were over Hartford, Xavier, Western Michigan, Northwestern, Air Force, Miami FL, Wake Forest, Canisius and Dayton.
>>The 87-88 team's longest loss streak was 6 in a row, with the home loss streak being 4 in a row. MU will potentially lose 8 in a row (6 currently) and 7 in a row at home (5 now).
So we can argue SOS metrics, but they are less relevant if you don't win....and the home wins by this team are mainly over dogs except that Providence win (ASU will be .500). If MU can win two more to go with the neutral site wins, then I will defer to the Dukiet year. However, this year's home record is simply the tie breaker for me.
Whether 51 years or 28, we are a spoiled bunch.
Agree with the spoiled bunch part. Who we lost to this year or then in terms of the names of the teams is irrelevent. Same for the wins. Beating Wake Forest in 1987 was not a big deal, nor was beating Northwestern...much harder to beat Northwestern today. Same goes for Miami (FL). The schedules aren't close. We played 15 NCAA tournament games this year, just 7 back in 1987-88. In many of those games this year, we played down to the wire when healthy. Not the case in 87-88.
Yes, we've been spoiled....did I say I agree with that part?
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Enough with arguing over which season is the sh!ttiest.
Does Henton remind anyone here of Matthews his senior season? I Really think Cooley has the makings of a program poised to make a serious jump into national prominence the next few seasons.
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Enough with arguing over which season is the sh!ttiest.
Does Henton remind anyone here of Matthews his senior season? I Really think Cooley has the makings of a program poised to make a serious jump into national prominence the next few seasons.
Sorry if too pedantic on that argument. Chicos and I view it as more history than a passing match. Some history is good, some bad. Has been a great run. Will move on.
Anyway, Cooley has done a great job. Reloaded quickly and is in good shape going forward. I doubt he will leave but PC will have to pay him.
In our first game, the 1-3-1 trap surprised Dunn. This game, they were ready for it knowing the back of that extended zone is its vulnerability as Henton had a field day. MU went 2-3 but extended it too far which left the seams and glass open.
The Wes comparison is a good one as he has a knack of finding open space or seam. A glider. Don't know if he has the range of Wes to play the perimeter though.
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Sorry if too pedantic on that argument. Chicos and I view it as more history than a passing match. Some history is good, some bad. Has been a great run. Will move on.
Anyway, Cooley has done a great job. Reloaded quickly and is in good shape going forward. I doubt he will leave but PC will have to pay him.
In our first game, the 1-3-1 trap surprised Dunn. This game, they were ready for it knowing the back of that extended zone is its vulnerability as Henton had a field day. MU went 2-3 but extended it too far which left the seams and glass open.
The Wes comparison is a good one as he has a knack of finding open space or seam. A glider. Don't know if he has the range of Wes to play the perimeter though.
If I recall correctly, when Wes clawed his way onto an NBA roster neither did he as even though they loved his defense/hustle that got him unexpected minutes, come crunch time he often was replaced with better shooting options.
Wes worked hard on his shooting and now he's 4th in made threes this season to go along with shooting .394 tied for 21st from behind the arc. I think Henton can and will develop that aspect of his game at the next level.