MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: BCHoopster on January 31, 2015, 04:13:54 PM
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Only watched last 10 minutes and of course Derrick did not score. Typical. MU losing anyway, sit Derrick and play the underclass man, it is time. Never seen 2 yea rs of watching the worst point guard in 52 years watching. No matter what or whomever is the point next year it will enjoyable to watch.
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There are only a few things that I am certain regarding this team-----and sitting De Will is just not gonna happen.
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You must have missed Derricks wild trey today or his monster dunk last Saturday. Oh...yeah...AND he plays better on-the-ball defense than anyone else on the team! What'd Roosevelt Jones do today? Nothing. That's on Derrick. Basketball is a two way game, and Derrick is so much more valuable than JJJ (also can't shoot, can't play D) or Sieve Taylor right now.
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For crying out loud, lets not start this again.
Look, I think this season is a lost cause, but Derrick Wilson is hardly the reason. He's playing better than ever before. I really like the way he has stepped up versus past years and I see a lot of Wojo in him.
Is he Butch Lee, Jim Boylan, Glenn Rivers, DWade, Sam Worthan, Tony Smith, any of the Amigos? No. But on this team, he's one of several who are undermanned and playing for a coach who is feeling his way through.
Derrick is OK. Not great but certainly not the evil force most posters on this board think he is.
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4? When it gets into crunch time, it's 1 1/2 on 5.
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Right Derrick is fine but have to change something, losing with him anyway
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Derrick didn't score. Neither did Roosevelt Jones.
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Derrick didn't score. Neither did Roosevelt Jones.
. Derrick scored fyi
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Have to find out I'd Duane Wilson can play point next year
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There are only a few things that I am certain regarding this team-----and sitting De Will is just not gonna happen.
Of course not. When was the last time we had an "elite PG" playing 32 plus minutes a game and were 27-26. Answer: Never!
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Of course not. When was the last time we had an "elite PG" playing 32 plus minutes a game and were 27-26. Answer: Never!
And just think! By playing Dawson and JJJ instead we could be 16-37 instead! Or worse. Wouldn't that be fun!
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. Derrick scored fyi
I know. I was more saying Derrick wasn't our problem. We went into prevent offense and everyone in the building knew Carlino was getting the ball. Derrick did great on Jones, but we had no answer for Chrabascz. But of course, the anti-Derrick crowd pins every loss on him. Maybe if the guys defending #45 had done their job we'd be celebrating a win. Instead we lose so it must be Derrick's fault.
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Of course not. When was the last time we had an "elite PG" playing 32 plus minutes a game and were 27-26. Answer: Never!
Yeah, that's bad. Guess what? I'm expecting about 32-35 min from DeWill next game also. Like it or not, he ain't goin anywhere.
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So...have...who? JJJ play more? He'd be lucky to score 6 points, and he sure as hell wouldn't hold Roosevelt Jones to 2 points. If we were playing with 4 with Derrick on the floor then they were with Roosevelt on the floor, so it was 4 on 4. Derrick gave up 6 inches to one of the best players in the conference and completely shut him down. This argument is as stupid as it gets.
At least you admitted to not having watched the game, saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but Derrick is why we lost!" Maybe focus on the guy who gave up 30 to a sophomore averaging 9.
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LOL, who do people want to see play more? Sandy and JJJ both got 15+ minutes and were complete non-entities.
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LOL, who do people want to see play more? Sandy and JJJ both got 15+ minutes and were complete non-entities.
Actually JJJ fit in well with the flow today unlike the last few games.
Sandy couldn't get anything going though.
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Derrick goes for 6 pts, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover, apparently holds Jones to 1-12 from the floor (giving up 6 inches in height) and people are still complaining? Good lord. Find a new pinata.
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Derrick goes for 6 pts, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover, apparently holds Jones to 1-12 from the floor (giving up 6 inches in height) and people are still complaining? Good lord. Find a new pinata.
+1
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Derrick goes for 6 pts, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover, apparently holds Jones to 1-12 from the floor (giving up 6 inches in height) and people are still complaining? Good lord. Find a new pinata.
Agreed, some people just love to have a punching bad
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Derrick is one of our best players. This whole thing on this board borders on moronic.
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I only watched the last fifteen minutes of the game where Derrick did not score a point, to bad I missed the first thirty minutes. I apologize to the Derrick lovers but the last 15 minutes of the game he did nothing except pass up open shots.
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Derrick is one of our best players. This whole thing on this board borders on moronic.
You are absolutely right. He is a huge part of why we are even staying competitive in many of our games. It's pretty revealing in terms of people having a clue about basketball when people just trash him. Are there flaws in his game; certainly. Is he far better than anyone else we have in terms of defense, leadership, rebounding and taking care of the ball; without a doubt. He is far from MU's biggest problem, and yes, he is one of the best assets on this team. The bashing is weak.
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And just think! By playing Dawson and JJJ instead we could be 16-37 instead! Or worse. Wouldn't that be fun!
Yep Lenny. Keep trying the same thing over and over with the same failed results. I never said JJJ or Dawson--you did. But there are other options. Why not try some.
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Derrick is one of our best players. This whole thing on this board borders on moronic.
If you really believe he is one of "our best players", then that explains a lot.
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It does. Second most career minutes on the team. Best defender. For two years, under two different coaching staffs, no one has been able to take the point guard position from him. This says more about the circumstances and the other PG candidates than it does about Derrick. I thought he was going to be one of the top 2-3 players on the team and that is why I predicted 14 wins. Which is looking optimistic right now. Next year, there will be talent and less experience. I am not bullish on next year's team, either.
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May wish to watch the full game next time and both ends of the court.
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If you really believe he is one of "our best players", then that explains a lot.
Yeah, explains that he's watching the game. Derrick is one of our best players. That's a big part of the problem. He's certainly better than most of the top 100 recruits on the roster.
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Yeah, explains that he's watching the game. Derrick is one of our best players. That's a big part of the problem. He's certainly better than most of the top 100 recruits on the roster.
LMAO
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Derrick goes for 6 pts, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover, apparently holds Jones to 1-12 from the floor (giving up 6 inches in height) and people are still complaining? Good lord. Find a new pinata.
^This. Some people on this board don't seem to understand that there are two ends on the basketball court. Derrick completely outplayed Butler's best player, bested him in every category while holding him to 1 for 12 shooting...and that is the guy they pinpoint? Not the fact that out interior players, mostly Luke, gave up 30 to a much shorter player?
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^This. Some people on this board don't seem to understand that there are two ends on the basketball court. Derrick completely outplayed Butler's best player, bested him in every category while holding him to 1 for 12 shooting...and that is the guy they pinpoint? Not the fact that out interior players, mostly Luke, gave up 30 to a much shorter player?
Agreed. If we were playing 4 on 5, it was because our 6'11" center let a 6'7" guy have a career game today. Luke had 12 pts and 6 rebs, while the guy he "guarded" went off for 30 and 8.
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LMAO
Okay, I'll entertain you. Who's better than Derrick?
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Between willie's opinion of Buzz and his opinion of Derrick, you can tell why everyone views him like Scoop's homeless guy raving in the alley.
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I deal with homeless guys raving in the alley on a regular basis. Don't insult them like that.
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I deal with homeless guys raving in the alley on a regular basis. Don't insult them like that.
QIA
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I deal with homeless guys raving in the alley on a regular basis. Don't insult them like that.
Boom.
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Derrick has no offensive game whatsoever. His stats are hollow and anybody who played as many minutes as he does, would be able to accumulate the points and assists he does. He has made improvements on offense this year, but he is still dreadful. He is fine on defense, but imo he is still a liability overall. To say he's one of the best players on the team, great...that's really nothing to hang your hat on.
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Derrick goes for 6 pts, 7 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover, apparently holds Jones to 1-12 from the floor (giving up 6 inches in height) and people are still complaining? Good lord. Find a new pinata.
Seriously, wtf more do people want? Tell me, because I am sick of this. What numbers does Derrick have to post to shut people up?
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To say he's one of the best players on the team, great...that's really nothing to hang your hat on.
That is kind of the point of why the team is 10-11 right now. You can count on Carlino shooting (though they may not go in). You can count on Derrick's effort on defense and taking care of the ball, knowing his assignment, busting his hind end. There is absolutely nothing else about this team other than the above listed things that you can count on on a game-to-game basis. Derrick ISN'T that talented. Once again, stop blaming Derrick. Blame the other players who haven't stepped up and taken his minutes the last two years.
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QIA
Quit It Already?
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Wojo had it right for a minute in the second half when he ran Duane, Carlino, JJJ, Juan and Luke.
27-26 record last season and this. Coming off Sweet 16, 16, Elite 8. More Top 100 talent in the program than any time in last 35 years and the same group refuses to either assign blame to the coaches or Derrick.
Is he better this year? Yes. A little. But he was historically awful last year. Find me a team where you PG played 33 minutes per game, shoots 45 percent from the FT line, had made a total of 8, 3 point shots through 21 games and has not made ONE 2 point FG other than layups at the basket. And some want to say this is one of our best players?? Give someone else 33 minutes a game and I guarantee you you can get 6 points a game and 4 rebounds and a few assists.
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Seriously, wtf more do people want? Tell me, because I am sick of this. What numbers does Derrick have to post to shut people up?
For the anti-Derrick crowd, it doesn't matter. People like Wojo'sMojo, willie, Ners, there is nothing Derrick could do. He could average 20 ppg the rest of the way and they'd still say there was something wrong with him.
He is a smart and efficient scorer that plays within himself, finds his teammates for assists, doesn't turn the ball over, and plays good defense. Further, he's clearly not the most talented guy in D1, but he's a very smart player that knows how to play the game.
I expect that in the next 5-10 years he'll either be playing a successful career in Europe where his attributes will be more appreciated or he will get an early start on a coaching career. I'd be very happy to see him return in a grad assistant role or something similar to what Diener is doing. To do as well as he had considering how much more natural talent most of the guys he is going up against have is a testament to just how valuable he is on the court.
FWIW...the only guy I'd say that has been better than him this year, and this is debatable, is Carlino. Juan, Fischer, Steve, Jajuan, Cohen, all certainly not, and all top-100 players. Duane has been too erratic to be better than Derrick. He's one of the two best players on our team. You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.
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A select really clueless posters are showing their true colors in this thread. They know 1 thing, putting the ball in the hoop, no matter how many shots it takes, how many turnovers they have, how much they lack in every other phase of the game. If they aren't scoring, then they are worthless to them. AKA, they have absolutely no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
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A select really clueless posters are showing their true colors in this thread. They know 1 thing, putting the ball in the hoop, no matter how many shots it takes, how many turnovers they have, how much they lack in every other phase of the game. If they aren't scoring, then they are worthless to them. AKA, they have absolutely no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
Lol, go count your participation ribbons.
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A select really clueless posters are showing their true colors in this thread. They know 1 thing, putting the ball in the hoop, no matter how many shots it takes, how many turnovers they have, how much they lack in every other phase of the game. If they aren't scoring, then they are worthless to them. AKA, they have absolutely no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
Talk about something you know about like volleyball. You want to know what's clueless?? When those of you who champion defense and basketball had two sides of the court don't realize that your defensive talented lineup isn't getting it done. Didn't win last year. Isn't wining this year. But lets keep banging our heads against this defense first approach that continues to lose. The individual defensive talent isn't nearly as powerful to a team as is how the total and complete lack of any offensive ability at the most critical position on the floor (PG) compounds problems for your whole team. Watch the last 5 minutes of Butler again and observe Derrbrick "orchestrating" our offense into an abyss of nothing.
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It must make people feel real big insulting and criticizing some 21 year old kid who is playing his guts out and has conducted himself with class and integrity throughout his time at Marquette.
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A select really clueless posters are showing their true colors in this thread. They know 1 thing, putting the ball in the hoop, no matter how many shots it takes, how many turnovers they have, how much they lack in every other phase of the game. If they aren't scoring, then they are worthless to them. AKA, they have absolutely no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
Wades - What are your qualifications with regard to "knowledge" of the game. Share with the board your experience that makes you so incredibly qualified to assert expertise.
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Wades - What are your qualifications with regard to "knowledge" of the game. Share with the board your experience that makes you so incredibly qualified to assert expertise.
I played a lot of NBA Jam as a kid. Still think Wojo should have called for the Helicopter Slam at the end of the game.
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A select really clueless posters are showing their true colors in this thread. They know 1 thing, putting the ball in the hoop, no matter how many shots it takes, how many turnovers they have, how much they lack in every other phase of the game. If they aren't scoring, then they are worthless to them. AKA, they have absolutely no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
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If were all clueless why is it in the last 5 minutes of a game a point guard brings you nothing, did you watch Duke tonight? The point is key in college, particularly the last 5 minutes, what has Derrick shown during those minutes? Free throws, a three, a jump shoot, nothing, great kid but it is all about winning
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The only time we are truly playing 4 on 5 is when JjJ is on the court. Derrick may not be the best, but it's not like we have better options.
Including JjJ's great games, his season stats are:
MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
19.9 7.4 2.7 1.7 1.1 0.4 1.7 .403 .743 .159
He went 1-3 today with 2pts....that's it. Sandy wasn't great either but he's at least shown something all season to deserve more minutes.
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If were all clueless why is it in the last 5 minutes of a game a point guard brings you nothing, did you watch Duke tonight? The point is key in college, particularly the last 5 minutes, what has Derrick shown during those minutes? Free throws, a three, a jump shoot, nothing, great kid but it is all about winning
Same could be said about the rest of the team in the last 4 minutes....why on god's green earth are we complaining about Derrick again? This game was definitely about coaching, go after Wojo on this one, Derrick didn't do anything to get ridiculed for. Just goes to show how reflexive the "Derrick is the worst player to exist" crowd has gotten.
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Derrbrick
Name calling? One of our own players?
Hope you're proud of yourself.
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Same could be said about the rest of the team in the last 4 minutes....why on god's green earth are we complaining about Derrick again? This game was definitely about coaching, go after Wojo on this one, Derrick didn't do anything to get ridiculed for. Just goes to show how reflexive the "Derrick is the worst player to exist" crowd has gotten.
Agreed but college ball is about the point guard, and the last two years MU has not had a game changer, blame Buzz if you want to put it on somebody.
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Agreed but college ball is about the point guard, and the last two years MU has not had a game changer, blame Buzz if you want to put it on somebody.
Matt Carlino is a point guard by pedigree too, he didn't win the game either. Point guard is a critical position, but it has no more critical in the game where the opponent isn't pressuring the ball than any other position. Once in the half court set, point guard has no impact as a position than any other. If Duane or Matt had taken control of the game and one it for us, the fact that they weren't point guards wouldn't have matter. Hell, if Luke had touched the ball on offense in the last 4 minutes and taken over the game, would it have mattered that he wasn't a point guard?
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Matt Carlino is a point guard by pedigree too, he didn't win the game either. Point guard is a critical position, but it has no more critical in the game where the opponent isn't pressuring the ball than any other position. Once in the half court set, point guard has no impact as a position than any other. If Duane or Matt had taken control of the game and one it for us, the fact that they weren't point guards wouldn't have matter. Hell, if Luke had touched the ball on offense in the last 4 minutes and taken over the game, would it have mattered that he wasn't a point guard?
Agreed, but I am looking more the whole season not just this game, Carlino is a two guard, shooter, turns the ball over to much and not quick enough. Derrick on certain points of the game is better than Carlino.
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Agreed, but I am looking more the whole season not just this game, Carlino is a two guard, shooter, turns the ball over to much and not quick enough. Derrick on certain points of the game is better than Carlino.
So what is your point? Just because Derrick is a point guard doesn't mean he should be the guy....point guard could be the guy in the clutch, but it could be really any position. Look back at MU's final four run, each game a different player was the go to player. If you've got a go to player at point great, but it doesn't have to be.
Don't put on Derrick that he's not a go to player....none of our roster is a go to player (Duane will get there, count on it)
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Big Duane fan and I think he's gonna be a nice player, whether it's at PG or combo guard. But he missed about a half-dozen layups today, including several easy ones. The funny thing is he made the tough ones.
I also am not the biggest fan of Derrick as a player, although he is significantly better this season than he was last season. Anybody who thinks Derrick lost this game must have been watching with their eyes closed.
WE'RE JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH, PEOPLE!
We don't have a "closer" other than Carlino, and it's pretty easy to take a 6-2 guard out of the game if you really want to.
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So what is your point? Just because Derrick is a point guard doesn't mean he should be the guy....point guard could be the guy in the clutch, but it could be really any position. Look back at MU's final four run, each game a different player was the go to player. If you've got a go to player at point great, but it doesn't have to be.
Don't put on Derrick that he's not a go to player....none of our roster is a go to player (Duane will get there, count on it)
I guess my point is that Buzz made a mistake.
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It does. Second most career minutes on the team. Best defender. For two years, under two different coaching staffs, no one has been able to take the point guard position from him. This says more about the circumstances and the other PG candidates than it does about Derrick. I thought he was going to be one of the top 2-3 players on the team and that is why I predicted 14 wins. Which is looking optimistic right now. Next year, there will be talent and less experience. I am not bullish on next year's team, either.
+1 Derrick would be the starting pg next year, if he had another year left. That alone should tell you next year will also be a bad year.
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+1 Derrick would be the starting pg next year, if he had another year left. That alone should tell you next year will also be a bad year.
LOL. Thank God it won't be a possibility. And ironically even though we lose our best scorer in Carlino, next years team will be better by the sheer case of not being handcuffed by Derrick at point guard. Duane Wilson could play it right now 10 times better for the sheer fact he is a threat from everywhere on the floor - an actually aggressive and puts pressure on a defense.
I agree though if Derrick was around next year, Wojo's man crush on Derrick would be alive and well and he'd be playing 33 again while the team loses at a high clip.
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+1 Derrick would be the starting pg next year, if he had another year left. That alone should tell you next year will also be a bad year.
I am sure Wojo understands that as well, I did find out that they feel Hanif can play point, So if he can Hanif, Wilson, Ellenson, Fisher and maybe Cohen are your 5. Back-ups Heldt, Taylor,
Ellenson, then not sure with issues with Nick and JJJ. Sacre Amin might be #11, might even start if Wojo offers. It is interesting that none of the big schools have offered yet?
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Agreed but college ball is about the point guard, and the last two years MU has not had a game changer, blame Buzz if you want to put it on somebody.
It's a guard's game...especially the point guard in college
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It's a guard's game...especially the point guard in college
I think Ners, you and I agree about that. In the last 10 seconds on the clock, who has the ball, supposedly a creator, Derrick is not, Junior Cadougan, Travis, DJ and others before them. Or look at the Badgers, Tra, Trevon Hughes, even Bronson but he can pull up and shoot it. Just look at the Big East right now, all are better than MU's. During the 70's it was insane, Dean
Lloyd Walton, Jim Boylan, and one of my favorites Sam Worthen.
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If you really believe he is one of "our best players", then that explains a lot.
If good Duane Wilson shows up he's our third best player. If bad Duane does he's our second. Either way, he's one of our best. On a good team he'd be our 7th or 8th best but incase you didn't notice this is not a good team.
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Lol, go count your participation ribbons.
Next time you win a National Title in...well, anything...let me know and we'll talk participation ribbons kid.
(http://i.imgur.com/PoMTPRs.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/woK0L7Y.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wUpFaYA.jpg)
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Quit It Already?
Quoted In Agreement ;)
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Wades - What are your qualifications with regard to "knowledge" of the game. Share with the board your experience that makes you so incredibly qualified to assert expertise.
This again? You played HS basketball. Get over yourself.
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Derrick has no offensive game whatsoever. His stats are hollow and anybody who played as many minutes as he does, would be able to accumulate the points and assists he does. He has made improvements on offense this year, but he is still dreadful. He is fine on defense, but imo he is still a liability overall. To say he's one of the best players on the team, great...that's really nothing to hang your hat on.
If JJJ plays Derrick's minutes, the only offensive stats that he would match is scoring. But then he would give up a bunch more on the defensive end.
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Big Duane fan and I think he's gonna be a nice player, whether it's at PG or combo guard. But he missed about a half-dozen layups today, including several easy ones. The funny thing is he made the tough ones.
I also am not the biggest fan of Derrick as a player, although he is significantly better this season than he was last season. Anybody who thinks Derrick lost this game must have been watching with their eyes closed.
WE'RE JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH, PEOPLE!
We don't have a "closer" other than Carlino, and it's pretty easy to take a 6-2 guard out of the game if you really want to.
This is pretty much accurate on all counts.
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McDonald all-american point guards often have an adjustment problem freshmen year in college basketball. The idea of Haanif being our savior at point guard next year, when he does not even play point in high school is just plain laughable. He may develope into a very good point guard, but he will have a hugh learning curve next year.
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Derrick is not, Junior Cadougan, Travis, DJ and others before them.
I don't recall any games where Derrick turned the ball over 10 times, like Junior did. Some of his games were absolutely atrocious.
Derrick is a better player than Cadougan was. I would take him every day of the week.
People have a very short memory.
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Derrick is a better player than Cadougan was. I would take him every day of the week.
Just looking at their senior years, let's compare Derrick and Junior.
Where Junior is better
PPG: 8.5 > 6.0
FT: 71.4% > 46.3%
Assist Rate: 28.3% > 23.9%
FD/40: 3.3 > 2.5
Where Derrick is better
ORtg: 104.5 > 96.1
2PFG: 51.2% > 49.8%
3PFG: 29.6% > 22.6%
eFG: 49.5% > 45.8%
Off Reb: 3.2% > 2.1%
Def Reb: 10.8% > 10.1%
RPG: 3.6 > 2.9
APG: 3.9 > 3.8
SPG: 1.2 > 1.1
TO Rate: 18.6% > 25.8%
TPG: 1.3 > 2.5
FTRate: 37.6% > 32.3%
The basic stats and advanced stats all favor Derrick pretty heavily, but what really stands out is usage. Junior took 20.4% of the shots when he was on the floor, Derrick takes 12.4%. Neither player were good shooters. Derrick is a bit better from 2, 3, and in terms of eFG%, but despite that he is more willing to defer to other players than Junior was. Junior had Gardner, Blue, Jamil, Mayo, Otule, and Lockett, all of whom were more offensively efficient than he was and he was still more likely to shoot. Derrick is willing to defer even though Carlino, Fischer, and Cohen are the only guys on the team more offensively efficient than he is.
Junior made some spectacular plays at times. He was more likely to get the ball to guys in scoring positions. But the only reason he scored more is because he shot so much more. And despite Junior drawing more fouls per game, Derrick has a higher free throw rate which tells me he's better at picking his opportunities.
And all this is without mentioning how much better a defender Derrick is than Junior is. Just look at Roosevelt Jones' statline yesterday if you need a reminder of that. Junior wasn't necessarily a bad defender, but he was at best average. Derrick isn't necessarily an elite defender, but he is well above average.
The last good point guard we had was Dominic James. The last great one was Travis Diener. But since DJ graduated, we've had a series of average (Acker) to slightly below average (Buycks, Junior, Derrick) point guards. Neither Junior nor Derrick were great college points, but if I had the choice between one of them based on their senior season, I'd take Derrick.
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Just looking at their senior years, let's compare Derrick and Junior.
Where Junior is better
PPG: 8.5 > 6.0
FT: 71.4% > 46.3%
Assist Rate: 28.3% > 23.9%
FD/40: 3.3 > 2.5
Where Derrick is better
ORtg: 104.5 > 96.1
2PFG: 51.2% > 49.8%
3PFG: 29.6% > 22.6%
eFG: 49.5% > 45.8%
Off Reb: 3.2% > 2.1%
Def Reb: 10.8% > 10.1%
RPG: 3.6 > 2.9
APG: 3.9 > 3.8
SPG: 1.2 > 1.1
TO Rate: 18.6% > 25.8%
TPG: 1.3 > 2.5
FTRate: 37.6% > 32.3%
The basic stats and advanced stats all favor Derrick pretty heavily, but what really stands out is usage. Junior took 20.4% of the shots when he was on the floor, Derrick takes 12.4%. Neither player were good shooters. Derrick is a bit better from 2, 3, and in terms of eFG%, but despite that he is more willing to defer to other players than Junior was. Junior had Gardner, Blue, Jamil, Mayo, Otule, and Lockett, all of whom were more offensively efficient than he was and he was still more likely to shoot. Derrick is willing to defer even though Carlino, Fischer, and Cohen are the only guys on the team more offensively efficient than he is.
Junior made some spectacular plays at times. He was more likely to get the ball to guys in scoring positions. But the only reason he scored more is because he shot so much more. And despite Junior drawing more fouls per game, Derrick has a higher free throw rate which tells me he's better at picking his opportunities.
And all this is without mentioning how much better a defender Derrick is than Junior is. Just look at Roosevelt Jones' statline yesterday if you need a reminder of that. Junior wasn't necessarily a bad defender, but he was at best average. Derrick isn't necessarily an elite defender, but he is well above average.
The last good point guard we had was Dominic James. The last great one was Travis Diener. But since DJ graduated, we've had a series of average (Acker) to slightly below average (Buycks, Junior, Derrick) point guards. Neither Junior nor Derrick were great college points, but if I had the choice between one of them based on their senior season, I'd take Derrick.
Haters hate facts.
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I don't recall any games where Derrick turned the ball over 10 times, like Junior did. Some of his games were absolutely atrocious.
Derrick is a better player than Cadougan was. I would take him every day of the week.
People have a very short memory.
Correct. This team would be no better with Junior as their PG.
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I think Ners, you and I agree about that. In the last 10 seconds on the clock, who has the ball, supposedly a creator, Derrick is not, Junior Cadougan, Travis, DJ and others before them. Or look at the Badgers, Tra, Trevon Hughes, even Bronson but he can pull up and shoot it. Just look at the Big East right now, all are better than MU's. During the 70's it was insane, Dean
Lloyd Walton, Jim Boylan, and one of my favorites Sam Worthen.
In recent MU history, the "creator" with the ball in his hands in the final 10 seconds has been Novak, McNeal, Lazar, Butler, DJO, Crowder and Blue. Remind me - how many of those guys were PGs?
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It's a guard's game...especially the point guard in college
Don't disagree about the importance of guards and especially point guards in college but it's not as simple as that. Our NBA point guard (Travis) led us to the NIT his junior and senior seasons. Junior (no better than Derrick by the numbers) led us to a Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as an upperclassman. More to success than a stud point guard.
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Hello. I have an opinion on Derrick, and I want everyone to know it! I will repeat that opinion over and over to the same people (some of whom agree with me, some of whom do not) without ever changing it in the slightest. Please, do not bother me with things like "numbers," "facts," or "context." I won't hear it. I will not rest until you know my stance, derailing every thread in my path if necessary. This is important, and not annoying. Go MU.
^Scoop, the past two seasons.
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In recent MU history, the "creator" with the ball in his hands in the final 10 seconds has been Novak, McNeal, Lazar, Butler, DJO, Crowder and Blue. Remind me - how many of those guys were PGs?
All had respectable points on there team. Cadougan, as bad as he was at times, he could score and make big shots, won some games at the end. Blue could create his own shot, Dominic James
did a lot of good things. It takes more than one player to make a team, so you want to discuss Juan, Sandy, JJJ or the rest. None of them will have a crack at the NBA. Pretty good recruiting by Buzz and Crean, jury is still out on Wojo, but it looks like talent is on the way. Derrick does a lot of good, no turnovers, good D, just bad, really bad O on a team that has trouble scoring, he is not
the only problem on O, that is for sure.
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In recent MU history, the "creator" with the ball in his hands in the final 10 seconds has been Novak, McNeal, Lazar, Butler, DJO, Crowder and Blue. Remind me - how many of those guys were PGs?
Agree, Stash. In 2003, Travis was our point guard but the ball was in Wade's hands during the final 10 seconds of the shot clock. Result? Final 4. In 2004 and 2005 the ball was in the hands of our future NBA point guard (Travis). Result? NIT, NIT.
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I don't recall any games where Derrick turned the ball over 10 times, like Junior did. Some of his games were absolutely atrocious.
Derrick is a better player than Cadougan was. I would take him every day of the week.
People have a very short memory.
LOL. The irony.
Somehow Cadougan's was able to lead a team to the Elite 8, and then the next year with every player returning other than Vander Blue and Trent Lockett (NBA D-Leaguers) Derrick took the team to missing the NIT with 2 NBA D-Leaguers (Mayo and Jamil), not to mention our best big in 30 years Davante as a senior.
Statements like these and some of the recent others here truly reflect how ignorant some on this board are, and it is no wonder circular debates continue. When you try to debate with idiocy it only leads to insanity.
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Wades - What are your qualifications with regard to "knowledge" of the game. Share with the board your experience that makes you so incredibly qualified to assert expertise.
And what are yours? Last I checked your name wasn't on an active roster or the practice team in DI-III basketball. With you lighting it up in the rec, I would have thought o'Neil and Deane would have jumped at the chance to have you as a walk on.
It has been well documented that you can't evaluate talent starting with yourself, Vander, Mayo so stop pretending you have any knowledge. Your inability to evaluate a team in a team game is off the charts.
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LOL. The irony.
Somehow Cadougan's was able to lead a team to the Elite 8, and then the next year with every player returning other than Vander Blue and Trent Lockett (NBA D-Leaguers) Derrick took the team to missing the NIT with 2 NBA D-Leaguers (Mayo and Jamil), not to mention our best big in 30 years Davante as a senior.
Statements like these and some of the recent others here truly reflect how ignorant some on this board are, and it is no wonder circular debates continue. When you try to debate with idiocy it only leads to insanity.
Sorry, Davante was not our best big in 30 years.
Mayo and Jamil were both lost last year, that's not Derrick's fault.....
Personally, Cadougan was ok and Derrick isn't any better...I'll give you that. Buzz didn't seem to value elite point guards, which is critical in college basketball.
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Personally, Cadougan was ok and Derrick isn't any better...I'll give you that. Buzz didn't seem to value elite point guards, which is critical in college basketball.
This is exactly what I love about the near term debate on who should play PG. If you had to force rank, clearly the Buzz era would be near the bottom of the list as he had either a different view of the position or did not prioritize getting the best here.
Miller (4yr)
Hutchins (4yr)
Henry (3/4yr)
Diener (3/4 yr)
James (4yr)
Acker (1yr)
Buycks (0/1yr)
Caddy (2/3yr)
DW (2yr)
Edit added buycks
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Cadougan wasn't as great as I'd like to remember him by. I like to remember Cadougan making those big plays down the stretch to beat Wisconsin.
He certainly was better than Derrick. I'm not going to bash Derrick because he is a fine young man, and its the coaches decision to leave him out there 30+ minutes a game.
Cadougan made the players around him better by putting them in positions to score. Junior was at his best penetrating the paint, and either hitting that midrange jumper or dishing to Davante/Otule in the paint. When you try to make big plays like that, turnovers will happen at a higher rate. I think I can count on one hand how many times this year Derrick has penetrated the paint and dished to Luke/ST Jr/ Juan for a dunk. Derrick is strong defensively, rebounds well, and doesn't turn it over a lot. But he doesn't attack a defense, make 3's and penetrate for assists. When he does penetrate, its with his right hand and he puts up a shot.
Wisconsin has 2 pg's better than Derrick, and UW Green Bay has 1 better. So we all can agree the blame is on Buzz.
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Cadougan was more 2 years than 3. Don't forget Buycks ran the point during Junior's sophomore year.
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Cadougan was more 2 years than 3. Don't forget Buycks ran the point during Junior's sophomore year.
Good point on Dwight. Was glad to see him have a big summer league and signed by Toronto.
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This is exactly what I love about the near term debate on who should play PG. If you had to force rank, clearly the Buzz era would be near the bottom of the list as he had either a different view of the position or did not prioritize getting the best here.
Smith (4yr)
Hutchins (4yr)
Henry (3/4yr)
Diener (3/4 yr)
James (4yr)
Acker (1yr)
Buycks (0/1yr)
Caddy (2/3yr)
DW (2yr)
Edit added buycks
Yup, and he had to beg back Acker to the team to boot. He just didn't value or couldn't get quality PG's. Much like Crean couldn't get quality bigs.
If you don't have quality, experienced guards, you are going to struggle in college.
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And what are yours? Last I checked your name wasn't on an active roster or the practice team in DI-III basketball. With you lighting it up in the rec, I would have thought o'Neil and Deane would have jumped at the chance to have you as a walk on.
It has been well documented that you can't evaluate talent starting with yourself, Vander, Mayo so stop pretending you have any knowledge. Your inability to evaluate a team in a team game is off the charts.
Go shag some more balls, Ballboy. And Vander/Mayo? What about it? Same player. And yea, my inability to evaluate a team in a team game is "off the charts" - As it was last year when I preacehd in early November that our team predicted to win the Big East coming off an Elite 8 appearance was going to be in major trouble if Buzz didn't make a change at PG. And now, once again, Wojo thinking he can win with a clone of himself out there that isn't surrounded by McDonald's All American's like he had at Duke is just ludicrous.
Yet volleyball players, ball boys, Star Wars action fans, guys who sat in the bleachers watching even - GASP - high school basketball - all spout off about how qualified and correct their OPINIONS are. Meanwhile, the team loses at a high rate, and these clowns can't come to the conclusion that you aint going to win with a PG as limited as Derrick Wilson. Last year the excuse was "we don't have anybody else." Now this year, both Carlino and Duane could play it - yet Wojo inexplicably feels he still needs to play Derrick 35 minutes a game. And we are 10-11. 2-7 in conference play. Worst MU offense in a long time. Clearly our defense first approach, like last year, isn't getting it done. Again.
You know why?? Because basketball is a TEAM game, and when your PG (the most critical player for your team on the offensive end) is a complete liability it impacts the whole team tremendously - negatively. What is the name of this thread?? That's what our head coach said about the team he chose to play last year. What more needs to be said??
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Cadougan wasn't as great as I'd like to remember him by. I like to remember Cadougan making those big plays down the stretch to beat Wisconsin.
He certainly was better than Derrick. I'm not going to bash Derrick because he is a fine young man, and its the coaches decision to leave him out there 30+ minutes a game.
Cadougan made the players around him better by putting them in positions to score. Junior was at his best penetrating the paint, and either hitting that midrange jumper or dishing to Davante/Otule in the paint. When you try to make big plays like that, turnovers will happen at a higher rate. I think I can count on one hand how many times this year Derrick has penetrated the paint and dished to Luke/ST Jr/ Juan for a dunk. Derrick is strong defensively, rebounds well, and doesn't turn it over a lot. But he doesn't attack a defense, make 3's and penetrate for assists. When he does penetrate, its with his right hand and he puts up a shot.
Wisconsin has 2 pg's better than Derrick, and UW Green Bay has 1 better. So we all can agree the blame is on Buzz.
Keep posting here. Very well said. Although Wojo has a couple of other options this year, and chooses not to play them at PG - so for that he deserves plenty of criticism. Never seen a more passive PG in watching basketball for 30 years.
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Yup, and he had to beg back Acker to the team to bong.
FIFY
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Just looking at their senior years, let's compare Derrick and Junior.
Where Junior is better
PPG: 8.5 > 6.0
FT: 71.4% > 46.3%
Assist Rate: 28.3% > 23.9%
FD/40: 3.3 > 2.5
Where Derrick is better
ORtg: 104.5 > 96.1
2PFG: 51.2% > 49.8%
3PFG: 29.6% > 22.6%
eFG: 49.5% > 45.8%
Off Reb: 3.2% > 2.1%
Def Reb: 10.8% > 10.1%
RPG: 3.6 > 2.9
APG: 3.9 > 3.8
SPG: 1.2 > 1.1
TO Rate: 18.6% > 25.8%
TPG: 1.3 > 2.5
FTRate: 37.6% > 32.3%
The basic stats and advanced stats all favor Derrick pretty heavily, but what really stands out is usage. Junior took 20.4% of the shots when he was on the floor, Derrick takes 12.4%. Neither player were good shooters. Derrick is a bit better from 2, 3, and in terms of eFG%, but despite that he is more willing to defer to other players than Junior was. Junior had Gardner, Blue, Jamil, Mayo, Otule, and Lockett, all of whom were more offensively efficient than he was and he was still more likely to shoot. Derrick is willing to defer even though Carlino, Fischer, and Cohen are the only guys on the team more offensively efficient than he is.
Junior made some spectacular plays at times. He was more likely to get the ball to guys in scoring positions. But the only reason he scored more is because he shot so much more. And despite Junior drawing more fouls per game, Derrick has a higher free throw rate which tells me he's better at picking his opportunities.
And all this is without mentioning how much better a defender Derrick is than Junior is. Just look at Roosevelt Jones' statline yesterday if you need a reminder of that. Junior wasn't necessarily a bad defender, but he was at best average. Derrick isn't necessarily an elite defender, but he is well above average.
The last good point guard we had was Dominic James. The last great one was Travis Diener. But since DJ graduated, we've had a series of average (Acker) to slightly below average (Buycks, Junior, Derrick) point guards. Neither Junior nor Derrick were great college points, but if I had the choice between one of them based on their senior season, I'd take Derrick.
Ah yes--the art of deflection. The discussion here is about Derrick, not comparing him to Cadougan. But just to take it off of Derrick, somebody drags in Cadougan. OK. Derrick is a better PG than Logterman was (his Frosh year). Bot Logterman was a better player.
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Ah yes--the art of deflection. The discussion here is about Derrick, not comparing him to Cadougan. But just to take it off of Derrick, somebody drags in Cadougan. OK. Derrick is a better PG than Logterman was (his Frosh year). Bot Logterman was a better player.
Every thread has been made about Derrick - so I guess the diversion is fair huh?
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Every thread has been made about Derrick - so I guess the diversion is fair huh?
"Every" thread? Yeah, that is fair hyperbole!
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Okay, I'll entertain you. Who's better than Derrick?
OK, I will entertain you: Duane, Fischer, Carlino, Sandy, and JJJ. Better basketball players. And I would put Juan as a push. Cue up the "He is a great young man...He is a great rebounder....He is an elite defender....He takes care of the basketball..." in 1...2...3.
Also cue up the He cannot shoot...He can't shoot FT's....He cannot create his own shot....etc.
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I don't like Derrick as a starting PG. He was invaluable as a sub PG or defensive sub.
But I know what he is not: a scorer. Therefore, he does create the 4 on 5 situation.
He doesn't even look to score.
He's "efficient" because he only takes 4-6 attempts a game and makes 2-4 of them.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/56169/derrick-wilson
He would be a better PG if he had a better surrounding (scoring) cast. But that is not the case this season and it particularly exposes his deficiencies.
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Go shag some more balls, Ballboy. And Vander/Mayo? What about it? Same player. And yea, my inability to evaluate a team in a team game is "off the charts" - As it was last year when I preacehd in early November that our team predicted to win the Big East coming off an Elite 8 appearance was going to be in major trouble if Buzz didn't make a change at PG. And now, once again, Wojo thinking he can win with a clone of himself out there that isn't surrounded by McDonald's All American's like he had at Duke is just ludicrous.
Yet volleyball players, ball boys, Star Wars action fans, guys who sat in the bleachers watching even - GASP - high school basketball - all spout off about how qualified and correct their OPINIONS are. Meanwhile, the team loses at a high rate, and these clowns can't come to the conclusion that you aint going to win with a PG as limited as Derrick Wilson. Last year the excuse was "we don't have anybody else." Now this year, both Carlino and Duane could play it - yet Wojo inexplicably feels he still needs to play Derrick 35 minutes a game. And we are 10-11. 2-7 in conference play. Worst MU offense in a long time. Clearly our defense first approach, like last year, isn't getting it done. Again.
You know why?? Because basketball is a TEAM game, and when your PG (the most critical player for your team on the offensive end) is a complete liability it impacts the whole team tremendously - negatively. What is the name of this thread?? That's what our head coach said about the team he chose to play last year. What more needs to be said??
my ability to evaluate talent arose from my high school basketball days or maybe my two intramural championships at the highest levels at Marquette, or possibly my days playing Cordell Henry and Olouma. Never was an actual ball boy but continue to try to use that as a qualifier as to why your opinion should prevail. The fact you actually think this just proves my point on talent evaluation.
Basketball is a team game and no part is more important then the next. I can count numerous teams who won without a true point guard. Teams that are winners are those that are greater then the sum of individual parts.
As many have pointed out in the last two years, there were more holes then Derrick Wilson. They still were going to lose at a high rate. Right now, he is one of our top 3 players which says more about the team then Derrick Wilson. Wojo is playing his best players and the last I checked has kept most games close including against a Top 25 team.
If my qualifications don't exceed your vast experience at the highest levels (complete joke) then I have two people who are vastly more qualified and they aren't trying to screw the administration or play favorites. They know the game.
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my ability to evaluate talent arose from my high school basketball days or maybe my two intramural championships at the highest levels at Marquette, or possibly my days playing Cordell Henry and Olouma. Never was an actual ball boy but continue to try to use that as a qualifier as to why your opinion should prevail. The fact you actually think this just proves my point on talent evaluation.
Basketball is a team game and no part is more important then the next. I can count numerous teams who won without a true point guard. Teams that are winners are those that are greater then the sum of individual parts.
As many have pointed out in the last two years, there were more holes then Derrick Wilson. They still were going to lose at a high rate. Right now, he is one of our top 3 players which says more about the team then Derrick Wilson. Wojo is playing his best players and the last I checked has kept most games close including against a Top 25 team.
If my qualifications don't exceed your vast experience at the highest levels (complete joke) then I have two people who are vastly more qualified and they aren't trying to screw the administration or play favorites. They know the game.
Thanks for clarifying Ball Boy. Congrats on your playing days and accomplishments. At least you have some - which is more than most can say here.
Which teams have won without a good PG? Just curious. As you look at the Top 25 currently - other than Virginia - how does our PG stack up against those on Top 25 teams? Do you feel many teams can be successful with a PG that doesn't attempt/nor can make a 2 point jump shot? That shoots 47% from the FT line? 12.5% from the 3 point line over their 4 year career?
Were Cordell's MU teams more successful than have Derrick's been? Where would you rank Derrick with regard to our PG's over the last 15 years?
How would you suggest the "sum of the parts" perform last season, when Derrick wasn't guarded within 6 feet, and the defenses collapsed the paint shutting off penetration/easy post entry?
Lastly - have you ever seen a head coach get a playing decision wrong - choosing a vet over a more talented understudy? Aren't head coaches judged ultimately by a Win/Loss record? Did Buzz meet expectations last year?
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OK, I will entertain you: Duane, Fischer, Carlino, Sandy, and JJJ. Better basketball players. And I would put Juan as a push. Cue up the "He is a great young man...He is a great rebounder....He is an elite defender....He takes care of the basketball..." in 1...2...3.
Also cue up the He cannot shoot...He can't shoot FT's....He cannot create his own shot....etc.
You forgot LEADERSHIP!!!
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Thanks for clarifying Ball Boy. Congrats on your playing days and accomplishments. At least you have some - which is more than most can say here.
Which teams have won without a good PG? Just curious. As you look at the Top 25 currently - other than Virginia - how does our PG stack up against those on Top 25 teams? Do you feel many teams can be successful with a PG that doesn't attempt/nor can make a 2 point jump shot? That shoots 47% from the FT line? 12.5% from the 3 point line over their 4 year career?
Were Cordell's MU teams more successful than have Derrick's been? Where would you rank Derrick with regard to our PG's over the last 15 years?
How would you suggest the "sum of the parts" perform last season, when Derrick wasn't guarded within 6 feet, and the defenses collapsed the paint shutting off penetration/easy post entry?
Lastly - have you ever seen a head coach get a playing decision wrong - choosing a vet over a more talented understudy? Aren't head coaches judged ultimately by a Win/Loss record? Did Buzz meet expectations last year?
Ok, I will play. Cordell Henry's record as point guard. He had a .500 career record until his senior year with Wade. If I look at just his record, I would say that he wasn't very successful, maybe even less successful than Wilson. However; he was one of the better players on bad teams. His first two years were playing with Brian Wardle who many consider one of the best in MU history. Why did they have a .500 record if we had a good PG? Maybe because there were holes elsewhere.
1998–99 Mike Deane 14–15 6–10
1999–00 Tom Crean 15–14 8–8
2000–01 Tom Crean 15–14 9–7
2001–02 Tom Crean 26–7 13–3
If I were to look at the point guards of the last 15-20yrs, I would rank them as follows:
Diener
Henry
DJ
Buycks
Cadougan
Acker
Wilson
I would say that based solely on the PG position it is hard to say that team record could directly be attributed to PG play. I mean the second best PG had the second worse record. I mean a bad record. I compare that with Cadougan who was in the lower half of point guards and he has a pretty good record.
I look at Diener's last two season which were not good
2003–04 Tom Crean 19–12 8–8
2004–05 Tom Crean 19–12 7–9
When I look at the best teams they had at least three players who could take over a game.
Final four team - Novak, Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merritt
Triplet: DJ, Hayward, Matthews, McNeal
Buzz's years: DJO, Vander, Crowder, Butler
Not only were there three people who could take over there were people in key positions who performed well.
If I look at this years team who can take over a game:
Duane and Carlino. Both can be taken out of a game. Fischer maybe. Has Juan, JJJ, Sandy, or Steve shown they can take over a game week in and week out. No.
So let's say we kick Derrick to the curb. That would mean that JJJ would have to step up at the three guard. When looking at his stats, he is a worse three point shooter, worse FG shooter, lower assists, higher TOs, fewer offensive and defensive rebounds and not nearly as good of a defender. I haven't even touched the intangibles such as court presence, leadership, hardworking, character because they aren't needed. So would the 6ft sag go away if JJJ were to play more?
How does our 4 compare against the Top 25? How about our 5? If we were to move our 3, how would our three rate? So if you could make an all-star team of the last 15 years how many players would you take from this years and last years teams? I might not take anyone.
So let's compare Derrick against our other top PGs. What was Dominic James FT and 3P-shooting percentage his Sr Yr? I will help you...worse than Derrick. His Offensive Rating was 104.7 to 104.3. How is it that a similar statistical PG is consider one of our best and the other is unserviceable. Is it because James had more Points but he was also shooting it 4 times as much?
I do think coaches make bad decisions but they work themselves out over time. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player he barely knew. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player that isn't the future of the team. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player who reminds him of himself. Coaches are paid to win games and they put the best team out there and over time it corrects itself. How many coaches have you seen put a worse team out there? In order for your theory to work you need two separate coaching staffs who can't evaluate talent or who want to lose. In order for my theory to work, I just have to look at the stats and alternatives.
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OK, I will entertain you: Duane, Fischer, Carlino, Sandy, and JJJ. Better basketball players. And I would put Juan as a push. Cue up the "He is a great young man...He is a great rebounder....He is an elite defender....He takes care of the basketball..." in 1...2...3.
Also cue up the He cannot shoot...He can't shoot FT's....He cannot create his own shot....etc.
Duane? Not consistent enough. Fischer? He started great but hasn't delivered in Big East play. Sandy? Maybe in a year or two, but certainly not yet. Jajuan? Really? Do you watch the games?
Casino is the only one. Juan has been marginalized by good competition. In non-con he put up 15.7/7.8 against buy opposition and 6.8/5.7 against high majors.
Derrick is 7th in eFG% and 5th in assist rate in Big East play. He's shooting 38% from 3 in league play. And he's the most reliable defender on the team. Carlino may be better, but no knee else is. That's part of the problem.
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Duane? Not consistent enough. Fischer? He started great but hasn't delivered in Big East play. Sandy? Maybe in a year or two, but certainly not yet. Jajuan? Really? Do you watch the games?
Casino is the only one. Juan has been marginalized by good competition. In non-con he put up 15.7/7.8 against buy opposition and 6.8/5.7 against high majors.
Derrick is 7th in eFG% and 5th in assist rate in Big East play. He's shooting 38% from 3 in league play. And he's the most reliable defender on the team. Carlino may be better, but no knee else is. That's part of the problem.
Quit eating mushrooms. The ones I mentioned are all better basketball players. You Sir, have missed the boat.
LMAO
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They may be better basketball players in the sense that they can probably beat Derrick in a game of horse or 1-on-1, but none of them have played more consistently or contributed more this season than Derrick.
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Duane? Not consistent enough. Fischer? He started great but hasn't delivered in Big East play. Sandy? Maybe in a year or two, but certainly not yet. Jajuan? Really? Do you watch the games?
Casino is the only one. Juan has been marginalized by good competition. In non-con he put up 15.7/7.8 against buy opposition and 6.8/5.7 against high majors.
Derrick is 7th in eFG% and 5th in assist rate in Big East play. He's shooting 38% from 3 in league play. And he's the most reliable defender on the team. Carlino may be better, but no knee else is. That's part of the problem.
He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.
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He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.
I agree with you on 3 point percentage.
But I don't on the W/L record issue. If you swapped JJJ's minutes with Derrick's they wouldn't be winning more.
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He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.
Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.
The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.
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he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.
Carlino, Luke and Duane which one do you think Derrick is better than?
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Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.
The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.
Of course, nothing is ever his fault ::)
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Of course, nothing is ever his fault ::)
Intellectually weak. No one said that.
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Intellectually weak. No one said that.
Oh really? "The record is far more of a product of everyone else," was the quote I was referencing. Intellectually weak? You're socially weak, go out and make some friends and quit sitting on a message board for 18 hours a day.
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Oh really? "The record is far more of a product of everyone else," was the quote I was referencing. Intellectually weak? You're socially weak, go out and make some friends and quit sitting on a message board for 18 hours a day.
Changing the subject. Even more intellectually weak.
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He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.
3pg% is only utilized because the 6ft sag theory. In that theory the defense sags 6ft off of Derrick because he can't hit a three to save his life. On the flip side the player that most in this club say should get the time is JaJuan. If the 3P% is the deciding factor then JaJuan is worse and he has also less 3fm on significantly more attempts. So is the defense going to play him at three point line or are they going to also sag? The double team has to come from somewhere. Right now, Derrick is playing a more complete game which is why he plays.
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Changing the subject. Even more intellectually weak.
Whatever you say Scoop Stalker...keep plugging away!
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Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.
The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.
And Derrick has made 11, 3 point shots for his whole entire MU career! On 12.5% shooting combined with his stellar 47% career FT percentage. Not to mention the team's record being 27-26 while he is "orchestrating" the offense and "getting guys into their positions," "playing to the scouting report," and "knowing his role." LOL
Of course, nothing is ever his fault ::)
Of course it isn't Wojo - nor is it ever our head coaches fault. Last season according to the same crowd that won't dare criticize and lay blame at Derrick, or Buzz's feet - instead blamed the "leadership" of Jamil and Davante. Hard to "lead" a team to victory when the guy on your team who is being played more minutes than any other player isn't even guarded as your team's PG.
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Ok, I will play. Cordell Henry's record as point guard. He had a .500 career record until his senior year with Wade. If I look at just his record, I would say that he wasn't very successful, maybe even less successful than Wilson. However; he was one of the better players on bad teams. His first two years were playing with Brian Wardle who many consider one of the best in MU history. Why did they have a .500 record if we had a good PG? Maybe because there were holes elsewhere.
1998–99 Mike Deane 14–15 6–10
1999–00 Tom Crean 15–14 8–8
2000–01 Tom Crean 15–14 9–7
2001–02 Tom Crean 26–7 13–3
If I were to look at the point guards of the last 15-20yrs, I would rank them as follows:
Diener
Henry
DJ
Buycks
Cadougan
Acker
Wilson
I would say that based solely on the PG position it is hard to say that team record could directly be attributed to PG play. I mean the second best PG had the second worse record. I mean a bad record. I compare that with Cadougan who was in the lower half of point guards and he has a pretty good record.
I look at Diener's last two season which were not good
2003–04 Tom Crean 19–12 8–8
2004–05 Tom Crean 19–12 7–9
When I look at the best teams they had at least three players who could take over a game.
Final four team - Novak, Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merritt
Triplet: DJ, Hayward, Matthews, McNeal
Buzz's years: DJO, Vander, Crowder, Butler
Not only were there three people who could take over there were people in key positions who performed well.
If I look at this years team who can take over a game:
Duane and Carlino. Both can be taken out of a game. Fischer maybe. Has Juan, JJJ, Sandy, or Steve shown they can take over a game week in and week out. No.
So let's say we kick Derrick to the curb. That would mean that JJJ would have to step up at the three guard. When looking at his stats, he is a worse three point shooter, worse FG shooter, lower assists, higher TOs, fewer offensive and defensive rebounds and not nearly as good of a defender. I haven't even touched the intangibles such as court presence, leadership, hardworking, character because they aren't needed. So would the 6ft sag go away if JJJ were to play more?
How does our 4 compare against the Top 25? How about our 5? If we were to move our 3, how would our three rate? So if you could make an all-star team of the last 15 years how many players would you take from this years and last years teams? I might not take anyone.
So let's compare Derrick against our other top PGs. What was Dominic James FT and 3P-shooting percentage his Sr Yr? I will help you...worse than Derrick. His Offensive Rating was 104.7 to 104.3. How is it that a similar statistical PG is consider one of our best and the other is unserviceable. Is it because James had more Points but he was also shooting it 4 times as much?
I do think coaches make bad decisions but they work themselves out over time. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player he barely knew. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player that isn't the future of the team. I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player who reminds him of himself. Coaches are paid to win games and they put the best team out there and over time it corrects itself. How many coaches have you seen put a worse team out there? In order for your theory to work you need two separate coaching staffs who can't evaluate talent or who want to lose. In order for my theory to work, I just have to look at the stats and alternatives.
Nice post Ballboy. I agree with most of what you wrote. I agree this team and most teams that are any good desperately need 3 scoring options. We all know without a doubt Derrick isn't going to be that 3rd option. Since Burton bailed on Wojo, in my view, the most likely guy who CAN* step up and be a 3rd scorer on this team is JJJ. The numbers bear it out when he gets to play 25+ per game.
Wojo isn't "risking his career" by playing Derrick. Wojo knows he has a longer leash than 1 year. It isn't a stretch whatsoever to say the Wojo very much LIKES Derrick as a person/player as Derrick shares many of the same qualities Wojo did as a player/person. Coaches do develop biases at times and favorites, and will give the benefit of a doubt to a player they favor. The problem is, Derrick isn't even CLOSE to the player Wojo was, nor is Derrick surrounded by McDonald's All Americans as was Wojo at Duke.
Lastly, regarding Cordell - you mention he is the 2nd best PG we've had the last 15 years, yet his teams weren't winners. I subscribe that his teams and the talent around him coming off the Deane years was awful, and therefore he alone couldn't get the team to be a winner. I'd also say if you took Cordell's stats and added them to the roster last year or this year, both of these teams are NCAA tourney teams without question.
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Of course, nothing is ever his fault ::)
It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.
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It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.
How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year? There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team? Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.
If you really believe Derrick Wilson is better than Junior Cadougan as a PG, you are beyond help, and beyond delusional.
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It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.
No, he's not better than Junior or Buycks. Wait are you actually saying he's better than Buycks?!
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Nice post Ballboy. I agree with most of what you wrote. I agree this team and most teams that are any good desperately need 3 scoring options. We all know without a doubt Derrick isn't going to be that 3rd option. Since Burton bailed on Wojo, in my view, the most likely guy who CAN* step up and be a 3rd scorer on this team is JJJ. The numbers bear it out when he gets to play 25+ per game.
Wojo isn't "risking his career" by playing Derrick. Wojo knows he has a longer leash than 1 year. It isn't a stretch whatsoever to say the Wojo very much LIKES Derrick as a person/player as Derrick shares many of the same qualities Wojo did as a player/person. Coaches do develop biases at times and favorites, and will give the benefit of a doubt to a player they favor. The problem is, Derrick isn't even CLOSE to the player Wojo was, nor is Derrick surrounded by McDonald's All Americans as was Wojo at Duke.
Lastly, regarding Cordell - you mention he is the 2nd best PG we've had the last 15 years, yet his teams weren't winners. I subscribe that his teams and the talent around him coming off the Deane years was awful, and therefore he alone couldn't get the team to be a winner. I'd also say if you took Cordell's stats and added them to the roster last year or this year, both of these teams are NCAA tourney teams without question.
JJJ hasn't stepped up and it isn't due to playing time. Even in his 25+ minutes he laid clunkers. Check his OSU stats and even Providence when he was 3-13. In the games that he did well, we were playing some of the worse competition. You failed to mention the Tennessee game which is a Top 2 win and he only played 15 yet we won. The four games which impact the quoted average were ASU, UT Martin, Morgan State and North Dakota (Wilson nearly had a double double). ASU is worse than we are and the other three aren't good. Against Alabama A&M, also not good, he was 4-12 and played close to your 25 minute threshold. Against good competition, he hasn't done nearly as well.
If Wojo doesn't win, the talent doesn't follow. Don't you think a good amount of Buzz's success in attracting talent was what he did in his first two years. Playing someone who isn't going to help you win because you like him isn't going to set a great foundation of success. Most playing time is determine prior to the game. You don't plan it to a tee but you know generally. Why wouldn't Wojo plan to play JaJuan more? Most likely he isn't showing him what he needs to in practice. When in games and he makes the same mistake as practice then he most likely will get pulled.
Let's say I take Juan or JaJuan and replace him with Crowder or Butler. Couldn't we say the same thing? The team would be better? Wouldn't adding Cordell mean less time for players such as JaJuan making the reliance on him stepping up also less? In your statement you are saying if we had better players we'd be a better team. Well, duh. We don't though so we need to play the players that give us the best shot of winning. Right now that is Derrick.
I wouldn't be surprised if next year Sandy gets more playing time then JJJ.
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How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year? There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team? Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.
If you really believe Derrick Wilson is better than Junior Cadougan as a PG, you are beyond help, and beyond delusional.
You keep referencing that the elite 8 team had 2 d leaguers, which is the same as last year. Well that elite 8 team had Blue, Jamil, Mayo, Lockett, and Gardner. So that's a fringe NBA player, and 4 d leaguers. Last year we had 3 d leaguers and that's it. Mayo and Wilson were apart of both teams.
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Quardell Young at UW-Whitewater is 10 times better than Derrick Wilson.
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We can all name dozens of point guards better than Derrick. How many of them are currently on the MU roster?
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Ners- who taught you how to use commas?
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Ners- who taught you how to use commas?
#Highschoolbasketball
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Serious question, is there some training for ex-MU AD alums about arguing the same points over and over on an infinite loop under the premise that you will convince someone, any one, to change their dug in opinions?
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Serious question, is there some training for ex-MU AD alums about arguing the same points over and over on an infinite loop under the premise that you will convince someone, any one, to change their dug in opinions?
Instead of ignoring Ners, we should all just start "agreeing" with him!
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How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year? There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team? Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.
So what your saying is we went from having a fringe NBA player (Vander) and 3 NBA D-Leaguers to only 2 NBA D-Leaguers? Sounds like a drop in talent to me!
We all recognize that Derrick was one of the main issues last season. What we don't accept is that he was the only problem last season. Honestly, Derrick put up a stat line of exactly what I expected last season as did Davante, Juan, and Otule. Dawson and Jake actually greatly exceeded my expectations for them. I was more disappointed in Mayo, Jamil, Steve, and Jajuan. The four of them vastly underperformed compared to what I expected out of them. When four players who are supposed to be either starters or key parts of your rotation underperform, and the only two who overperform are the two players who were supposed to be on the end of your bench, that is not a good recipe for a winning season.
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They may be better basketball players in the sense that they can probably beat Derrick in a game of horse or 1-on-1, but none of them have played more consistently or contributed more this season than Derrick.
LMAO: Consistent, yes. He should be as a senior with huge minutes. Contributed more? No way. LMAO.
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go out and make some friends and quit sitting on a message board for 18 hours a day.
Once again, dude on message board criticizes other dude on message board for being on message board.
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He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position.
Nah.
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No, he's not better than Junior or Buycks. Wait are you actually saying he's better than Buycks?!
Buycks when he was here was not the same guy that played in the NBA. He was a clearly out of position shooting guard being forced to play the point because Junior wasn't ready. Dwight at Marquette was the epitome of trying to make playground ball work on a D1 court.
All credit to him, he went to France, worked at his game, and became a guy worthy of playing PG in the NBA. But anyone that thinks Dwight was NBA ready when he left Marquette or that he really developed his PG skills here is delusional. He showed the occasional flash and clearly had the athleticism, but it was the time in France that helped him get all that under control so he could get a NBA contract.