MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on January 28, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
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1. Too long a stretch with MU doing nothing on offense or defense.
2. For a stretch, it was the first time all year that it didn't look like MU was competing.
3. The refs were incompetent. MU sucked, but those refs, and one in particular, brutal.
4. Too little, too late, but at least MU showed energy down the stretch.
5. MU did a great job of getting assists on made baskets. Just not enough of them.
6. SH's 3pt % was like G-town's FT %. An outlier compared to their seasonal average.
7. I'm torn between thinking that Wojo might as well give JJJ extended run when everything else is going wrong and not wanting to reward lousy play. But everyone was lousy for awhile, so I can see both sides.
8. I predicted 14 wins. Sticking with it.
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1. Too long a stretch with MU doing nothing on offense or defense.
2. For a stretch, it was the first time all year that it didn't look like MU was competing.
3. The refs were incompetent. MU sucked, but those refs, and one in particular, brutal.
4. Too little, too late, but at least MU showed energy down the stretch.
5. MU did a great job of getting assists on made baskets. Just not enough of them.
6. SH's 3pt % was like G-town's FT %. An outlier compared to their seasonal average.
7. I'm torn between thinking that Wojo might as well give JJJ extended run when everything else is going wrong and not wanting to reward lousy play. But everyone was lousy for awhile, so I can see both sides.
8. I predicted 14 wins. Sticking with it.
Regarding 7. It's what me and Jesmu were talking on the game thread.
It really is a fine line. He can't completely abandon his principles but at sometime he has to tell the seniors this ain't getting done. Still be leaders but I am going to distribute PT more to give the young guys are run. Bring Juan down to about 20-22 minutes...boost JJJ and Sandy. Bring derrick down just a tad.
Just my opinion. Nothing to lose, would just like to see some guys gain some confidence for next year. Like maybe steve is?
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JJJ hasn't improved one bit in a season and a half. Why would an extended run be any different? Sandy shows how you can earn time by playing better.
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Pretty ugly tonight.
Derrick played well, but he has the touch of a blacksmith at the FT line.
Time to go with man to man. Zone is not cutting it.
Juan had two garbage baskets at the end. Where are those when we need them?
Overall, that was our worst game of the season.
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But do you give minutes to young guys who's production is less than that of the seniors? Derrick went for 10pts, 8 assists, 7 rebounds tonight. He produced. Do you forcefeed JJJ minutes? What message does THAT send? No easy choices.
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SH 13 for 26 from three. Ballgame
MU had only 9 turnovers to Halls 15
Duane 3 for 13, not like last game.
Luke had 6 fg attempts.
Interesting to see how JJJ's rest of season goes.........for next year, maybe
They tried hard, but don't have the horses yet.
I was one of two who predicted 5 BE wins, hoped I be wrong, but we'll see. Keep cheering them on.
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JJJ hasn't improved one bit in a season and a half.
The same could be said about Vander Blue at this point in his sophomore year - although he was slightly better as a sophomore than freshman (when he was really bad.)
JJJ is a headcase on the floor at this point - and I believe Wojo should shoulder a good chunk of that burden. You can't play mind games with players, and have short hooks, leashes, and yank them in and out, bench them for a game, etc., and expect the player to give you any kind of solid performance. JJJ is as tight as can be out there - and with good reason. Virtually ever player on this team, perhaps other than Carlino, has had multiple brutal games/stretches this season.
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The same could be said about Vander Blue at this point in his sophomore year - although he was slightly better as a sophomore than freshman (when he was really bad.)
JJJ is a headcase on the floor at this point - and I believe Wojo should shoulder a good chunk of that burden. You can't play mind games with players, and have short hooks, leashes, and yank them in and out, bench them for a game, etc., and expect the player to give you any kind of solid performance. JJJ is as tight as can be out there - and with good reason. Virtually ever player on this team, perhaps other than Carlino, has had multiple brutal games/stretches this season.
I know your intent is good...but let's not act like JJJ is earning anything out there. I want him to figure it out, I really do, but he is brutal. He's missing layups, shooting contested threes (that he already is normally bad at), and he isn't playing good defense. He's gotta earn something. Sandy started out on a leash and he is playing phenomenal if you ask me.
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The same could be said about Vander Blue at this point in his sophomore year - although he was slightly better as a sophomore than freshman (when he was really bad.)
JJJ is a headcase on the floor at this point - and I believe Wojo should shoulder a good chunk of that burden. You can't play mind games with players, and have short hooks, leashes, and yank them in and out, bench them for a game, etc., and expect the player to give you any kind of solid performance. JJJ is as tight as can be out there - and with good reason. Virtually ever player on this team, perhaps other than Carlino, has had multiple brutal games/stretches this season.
Sandy got benched for a game. Looks just fine.
Unless you've spoken to JJJ, you can't possibly know with 100% certainty what is going on in his head.
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http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588434
5-11 FT'ing. Derrick was 2-5, but at least he got to the line. Luke 0-2.
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But do you give minutes to young guys who's production is less than that of the seniors? Derrick went for 10-7-7 tonight. He produced. Do you forcefeed JJJ minutes? What message does THAT send? No easy choices.
For Derrick not much because he's not really being punished. I just said maybe move him back to 30ish minutes. It's still about building a program. It is more Juan who should have minutes regressed. He is completely lost on offense and wont shoot open 3s then chucks balls off back boards.
Juan deserves good minutes still...just not close to 35.
Really have nothing to lose
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Sandy got benched for a game. Looks just fine.
Unless you've spoken to JJJ, you can't possibly know with 100% certainty what is going on in his head.
Hey, watch yourself jesmu. Ners played in high school.
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SH 13 for 26 from three. Ballgame
MU had only 9 turnovers to Halls 15
Duane 3 for 13, not like last game.
Luke had 6 fg attempts.
Interesting to see how JJJ's rest of season goes.........for next year, maybe
They tried hard, but don't have the horses yet.
I was one of two who predicted 5 BE wins, hoped I be wrong, but we'll see. Keep cheering them on.
Always.
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http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588434
5-11 FT'ing. Derrick was 2-5, but at least he got to the line. Luke 0-2.
This has been an issue all year. This has gotta be the first jump-shooting reliant MU team in a while and I really miss when we forced the other team into foul trouble. Seton Hall only played 6 guys today if I saw correctly. So any foul trouble would have really forced their hand.
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But do you give minutes to young guys who's production is less than that of the seniors? Derrick went for 10-7-7 tonight. He produced. Do you forcefeed JJJ minutes? What message does THAT send? No easy choices.
Derrick had a GREAT game tonight...by Derrick standards. Yet he still hasn't made a midrange jump shot all year. He's made exactly 7 baskets other than layups thus far for the season. That's some pretty big holes in the game of a 34 minute per game player.
As for giving the underclassmen more minutes? The message it sends is: We are investing in our future, because the present isn't taking us anywhere.
Wojo and JJJ need to get on the same page. Feel Wojo needs to see what he has in JJJ and tell him, I'm giving you a long leash. Bust your ass in practice and in the games. But - I'm going to see what you can do with 30 minutes. Let the player know it going into a game. JJJ's confidence is in the toilet right now.
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A six man rotation for SHU tonight...
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And of course. the game we finally take care of the ball nicely...the other team is lights out.
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JJJ's D is still brutal--regardless of those who only read the box score and don't watch the game have to say. And in bad D and several missed shots on the Off end.......that's not the formula for extended playing time.
Sandy makes mistakes but is engaged and can hit from deep.
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The main difference between Blue and JJJ that a certain poster has conveniently forgotten is Blue played very good defense and JJJ not so much.
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* Wojo stuck with the zone far too long.
* I hope JJJ starts to play better, we need him. I liked his energy on defense but jacking up contested threes when you are already 0-12 isn't the way to go about it
* Sandy is progressing every game. Nice work from the freshman
* Derrick led the team in both assists and rebounds.
* Nice balance from SH
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A six man rotation for SHU tonight...
How did they not become so incredibly fatigued and wilt down the stretch - as we've been accused/excused for doing so?
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Derrick had a GREAT game tonight...by Derrick standards. Yet he still hasn't made a midrange jump shot all year. He's made exactly 7 baskets other than layups thus far for the season. That's some pretty big holes in the game of a 34 minute per game player.
As for giving the underclassmen more minutes? The message it sends is: We are investing in our future, because the present isn't taking us anywhere.
Wojo and JJJ need to get on the same page. Feel Wojo needs to see what he has in JJJ and tell him, I'm giving you a long leash. Bust your ass in practice and in the games. But - I'm going to see what you can do with 30 minutes. Let the player know it going into a game. JJJ's confidence is in the toilet right now.
I'm not entirely against this notion. My concern is what message that might send to future recruits. They could think "well, Wojo will be playing the young guys if MU isn't winning (for whatever reason) when i'm an upperclassmen, if i'm doing everything i can correctly. so, why should i go there?"
What are the long-term ramifications of that philosophy?
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The main difference between Blue and JJJ that a certain poster has conveniently forgotten is Blue played very good defense and JJJ not so much.
Maybe you missed this from Bama with regard to JJJ?:
True on offense - BUT he is our top steals guy (3.5% of opposing trips) and is one of the rate players in the country who is in the top 4% in the country in both steals AND avoiding fouling while doing it. Our defense still relies on steals (12th in the country as a team).
Our defense was ranked No. 1 in Big East play during those first three games with him playing 21 minutes a game, and has been way below conference average in the last four games with him playing only 10 minutes a game. Not denying the terrible offense, but the two things we do well on defense are steal the ball and contest 3 pointers, and I do think JJJ is a big asset on the defensive end.
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I'm not entirely against this notion. My concern is what message that might send to future recruits. They could think "well, Wojo will be playing the young guys if MU isn't winning (for whatever reason) when i'm an upperclassmen, if i'm doing everything i can correctly. so, why should i go there?"
What are the long-term ramifications of that philosophy?
It sends the message that mediocrity will not be tolerated at MU.
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I'm not entirely against this notion. My concern is what message that might send to future recruits. They could think "well, Wojo will be playing the young guys if MU isn't winning (for whatever reason) when i'm an upperclassmen, if i'm doing everything i can correctly. so, why should i go there?"
What are the long-term ramifications of that philosophy?
I'd say a far bigger risk is that in this immediate gratification society we live in - Other coaches will negative recruit MU/Wojo and say - "Look, you go to Marquette, you are going to ride the pine behind largely ineffective veterans."
A player can do everything they can, try to the best of their ability - but if they aren't getting it done on the floor, they don't deserve to be on the floor - at least not 35 minutes per game.
When the bench guys are Top 40-60 recruits, and they can get much of any time (or get yanked in and out with a few missed shots) that doesn't bode well to recruit/attract new kids into the program.
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I'd say a far bigger risk is that in this immediate gratification society we live in - Other coaches will negative recruit MU/Wojo and say - "Look, you go to Marquette, you are going to ride the pine behind largely ineffective veterans."
A player can do everything they can, try to the best of their ability - but if they aren't getting it done on the floor, they don't deserve to be on the floor - at least not 35 minutes per game.
When the bench guys are Top 40-60 recruits, and they can get much of any time (or get yanked in and out with a few missed shots) that doesn't bode well to recruit/attract new kids into the program.
I don't think MU will have problems recruiting kids. If a kid is gonna make his decision on how the team was run when Wojo had 8 guys he didn't recruit on the roster, so be it. This year is gonna be rough...let's not exaggerate the impact because we are sad.
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I don't think MU will have problems recruiting kids. If a kid is gonna make his decision on how the team was run when Wojo had 8 guys he didn't recruit on the roster, so be it. This year is gonna be rough...let's not exaggerate the impact because we are sad.
Good point.
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After the last three games, I'm just fine with a Jim Burr sighting at the BC on Saturday to lay down the law. The officiating has gotten so bad he's soared up the chart of not total incompetence.
If you're going to "play for next year" anywhere, Sandy has earned his early year starting gig back - give him the run. JJ...let's hope for a miracle turnaround. That was ugly.
Hope we can get a freshman class like SHU that sets the tone for several years. With three to fill and very likely more, Wojo can probably do more damage on the recruiting trail than scrapping together much else out of this team.
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7. I'm torn between thinking that Wojo might as well give JJJ extended run when everything else is going wrong and not wanting to reward lousy play. But everyone was lousy for awhile, so I can see both sides.
You cannot give a guy who's playing that poorly an extended run unless you've totally given up. Even then I'm not sure I see the point.
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JJJ hasn't improved one bit in a season and a half. Why would an extended run be any different? Sandy shows how you can earn time by playing better.
EXACTLY. Wishful thinking by some folks who thinks he is good. Buzz sat him and Wojo doing the same. He stunk the few minutes he played tonight.
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A six man rotation for SHU tonight...
No fatigue? Can't be---we play 8 and fatigue sets in seems like every game.
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I'm not entirely against this notion. My concern is what message that might send to future recruits. They could think "well, Wojo will be playing the young guys if MU isn't winning (for whatever reason) when i'm an upperclassmen, if i'm doing everything i can correctly. so, why should i go there?"
What are the long-term ramifications of that philosophy?
Again, not a bad counter argument at all.
I just don't think recruits will think like that though. I feel there is a far better chance that they see a coach willing to give minutes to an underclassmen. And even if they do by chance see seniors losing minutes, hopefully they will have confidence in themselves that they will be putting up big time numbers as a senior and/or the team is really exceeding so the emphasis wont be on the future.
Good point, I just don't think 17 year old kids operate with that thought.
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You cannot give a guy who's playing that poorly an extended run unless you've totally given up. Even then I'm not sure I see the point.
Lenny - Not trying to be a dick here - but could you not have said the same about Derrick last season? He was AWFUL last year.
Furthermore, JJJ is a sophomore - and as mentioned many times - he's very comparable to where Vander Blue was as a sophomore. Both were similar rated recruits. Similar body types. Similar athleticism. Similar struggles.
Can Wojo afford to lose ANOTHER of his sophomore class?? And one that was thought to be a VERY good prospect coming out of high school by the scouts and Buzz?
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The same could be said about Vander Blue at this point in his sophomore year - although he was slightly better as a sophomore than freshman (when he was really bad.)
JJJ is a headcase on the floor at this point - and I believe Wojo should shoulder a good chunk of that burden. You can't play mind games with players, and have short hooks, leashes, and yank them in and out, bench them for a game, etc., and expect the player to give you any kind of solid performance. JJJ is as tight as can be out there - and with good reason. Virtually ever player on this team, perhaps other than Carlino, has had multiple brutal games/stretches this season.
All these kids have the athletic ability…what differentiates performance is the mental aspect of the game. The coaches spend endless hours with these kids in practices and in life in general….I trust they know what makes them tick…or not…and what motivates…or not…and what unlocks better performance…or not….to suggest wojo is "playing mind games" in some sort of unjust, oppressive nature by singling out JJJ is really ill-informed….nobody on this board has ANY idea what happens every day in practices, in closed meetings, in discussions between coaches and players and between coaches and coaches. We see a small sample size on the game days and make our opinions and observations…which is fun and generally healthy as we are all fans…but seeking to be a champion of the oppressed by making your own fiction become fact seems dangerous.
If Wojo is clear with JJJ on expectations and is consistent with his individual approach in his relationship with him…how is that mind games? I played sports my whole life….i get the notion that a short leash affects performance…but maybe that short leash is deserved based upon more than sample size of minutes in games….we have no clue….why would wojo single out JJJ and treat him significantly different than the other 7 active players (see Cohen who keeps earning more minutes)?
Wojo is in a learning curve as a head coach as well..but, he has a pretty deep and insightful staff…surely they would educate him on his errant ways, no?
I really have been excited about JJJ as he has shown flashes…but, if he ends up transferring because he is in conflict with the new regime's culture, expectations and style…so be it…and I wish him all the best, sincerely, as he seems like an absolutely great young man and perhaps his potential can be fulfilled (either here or somewhere else).
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Can Wojo afford to lose ANOTHER of his sophomore class?? And one that was thought to be a VERY good prospect coming out of high school by the scouts and Buzz?
Buzz's track record of recruiting and developing HS talent probably won't help your case.
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Often highly ranked kids in high school do not turn out to be great D-1 basketball players….we have had frequent examples through our program the last few years alone….that is not necessarily on coaching….
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All these kids have the athletic ability…what differentiates performance is the mental aspect of the game. The coaches spend endless hours with these kids in practices and in life in general….I trust they know what makes them tick…or not…and what motivates…or not…and what unlocks better performance…or not….to suggest wojo is "playing mind games" in some sort of unjust, oppressive nature by singling out JJJ is really ill-informed….nobody on this board has ANY idea what happens every day in practices, in closed meetings, in discussions between coaches and players and between coaches and coaches. We see a small sample size on the game days and make our opinions and observations…which is fun and generally healthy as we are all fans…but seeking to be a champion of the oppressed by making your own fiction become fact seems dangerous.
If Wojo is clear with JJJ on expectations and is consistent with his individual approach in his relationship with him…how is that mind games? I played sports my whole life….i get the notion that a short leash affects performance…but maybe that short leash is deserved based upon more than sample size of minutes in games….we have no clue….why would wojo single out JJJ and treat him significantly different than the other 7 active players (see Cohen who keeps earning more minutes)?
Wojo is in a learning curve as a head coach as well..but, he has a pretty deep and insightful staff…surely they would educate him on his errant ways, no?
I really have been excited about JJJ as he has shown flashes…but, if he ends up transferring because he is in conflict with the new regime's culture, expectations and style…so be it…and I wish him all the best, sincerely, as he seems like an absolutely great young man and perhaps his potential can be fulfilled (either here or somewhere else).
Nice post. In my view, from what I can see when watching games - JJJ's hook is quicker than than the other players. JJJ's margin for error in games is smaller. Virtually every guy on our team has had awful stretches/games/back to back to back bad games - yet they are still seeing 30+ minutes per night. Take your pick out of Duane, Derrick, Juan.
Sandy has been pretty efficient in the minutes he's been giving, and he has been shooting the ball very well. He's no doubt a better shooter than JJJ is at this point. So Sandy comes in games, makes his shots, and by virtue of that continues to get to play. Fair enough. However, I'm sure you would agree given that you've played the game - Just because you miss your first two shots in a game, in perhaps a 3 minute stretch of time - doesn't mean you are going to have an awful game.
So, while I agree with the majority of what you post, I do feel that JJJ's leash has been shorter than any of the guys left on the team - and I believe that short leash is partly to blame with the poor performance we've been seeing of late.
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Buzz's track record of recruiting and developing HS talent probably won't help your case.
The only Top 40 kid other than JJJ Buzz signed was Vander. Buzz didn't have a lot of luck with his High School kids ranked 60-100.
Burton will be a star, however.
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Fair enough. However, I'm sure you would agree given that you've played the game - Just because you miss your first two shots in a game, in perhaps a 3 minute stretch of time - doesn't mean you are going to have an awful game.
So, while I agree with the majority of what you post, I do feel that JJJ's leash has been shorter than any of the guys left on the team - and I believe that short leash is partly to blame with the poor performance we've been seeing of late.
I agree with both those both points….I also know the ego can be a fragile thing, especially in high-level athletes
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The only Top 40 kid other than JJJ Buzz signed was Vander. Buzz didn't have a lot of luck with his High School kids ranked 60-100.
Burton will be a star, however.
He didn't have luck with many HS recruits, period. Vander had one good year. Cadougan and Davante were good players. His best guys were all JUCOs.
And we'll see about Burton.
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I'm not entirely against this notion. My concern is what message that might send to future recruits. They could think "well, Wojo will be playing the young guys if MU isn't winning (for whatever reason) when i'm an upperclassmen, if i'm doing everything i can correctly. so, why should i go there?"
What are the long-term ramifications of that philosophy?
They are actually thinking that there is playing time available immediately if I bust my ass and then when I'm an upperclassman, hell, I'm so good they can't bench me.
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He didn't have luck with many HS recruits, period. Vander had one good year. Cadougan and Davante were good players. His best guys were all JUCOs.
And we'll see about Burton.
I agree - Buzz's success with high school kids was oddly low, given how many Top 100 kids he brought to MU. But, the highest rated were Vander and JJJ...and they look an awful lot alike in so many ways at this stage within their careers - as 2nd semester sophomores.
Burton will kill it at Iowa State. Perhaps JJJ will be joining him there too. ;D MU is starting a pipeline now of kids transferring out of MU and going on to good career at ISU. Christopherson. McKay. Burton.
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Sandy has been pretty efficient in the minutes he's been giving, and he has been shooting the ball very well. He's no doubt a better shooter than JJJ is at this point. So Sandy comes in games, makes his shots, and by virtue of that continues to get to play. Fair enough. However, I'm sure you would agree given that you've played the game - Just because you miss your first two shots in a game, in perhaps a 3 minute stretch of time - doesn't mean you are going to have an awful game.
Sandy reminds me of a more aggressive Jimmy his 'freshman' year. Let the game come to him, and do something well. In Sandy's case it is more offensive minded -- where Jimmy was defense and rebounding. There have been times he has been pulled very quickly in games and now times where he can play through some mistakes.
If I were JJJ I would work on doing something really well. Unfortunately for him everyone has a base level of athleticism and he has nothing to hang his hat on or that truly differentiates him from what we have seen....especially now that the team seems to be rebounding a little better as a crew.
Hate to say it but I see three players that look to make a jump right now -- and would sacrifice today to bet on the future -- Duane, Luke & Sandy. Everything we do should be in the name of making them better at this point.
If someone else wants to join that group -- its time to prove it on the floor without excuses.
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Lenny - Not trying to be a dick here - but could you not have said the same about Derrick last season? He was AWFUL last year.
Furthermore, JJJ is a sophomore - and as mentioned many times - he's very comparable to where Vander Blue was as a sophomore. Both were similar rated recruits. Similar body types. Similar athleticism. Similar struggles.
Can Wojo afford to lose ANOTHER of his sophomore class?? And one that was thought to be a VERY good prospect coming out of high school by the scouts and Buzz?
No worries, Ner's. Derrick was not good last year, you're right about that, but the ONLY alternative was a freshman who is now red shirting at Liberty. JJJ is competing with guys (Carlino, Duane and Sandy) for minutes who are playing much better than he is. If you want to include Derrick (they're not really in competition) he's playing way better than JJJ too. Three spots for 5 players and JJJ has EARNED his spot as the fifth option after beginning the season as a starter. He has nobody to blame but himself.
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There was a 3:11 stretch in the second half when JJJ missed a 3, a layup, then another 3. Some of you talk as though he missed one shot, then got yanked.
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JJJ has been terrible and doesn't deserve the minutes, but earned or not, he's got to get some extended runs to see what he does with it. It's the only way to know if he's just one of those guys that can't get in a flow with short stints and to see if there's anything to work with going forward.
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There was a 3:11 stretch in the second half when JJJ missed a 3, a layup, then another 3. Some of you talk as though he missed one shot, then got yanked.
That was in second half when MU was down 24
Everyone referring to first half at 14 minute mark, when he went for weak layup and yanked. He had played maybe 30 seconds.
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JJJ has been terrible and doesn't deserve the minutes, but earned or not, he's got to get some extended runs to see what he does with it. It's the only way to know if he's just one of those guys that can't get in a flow with short stints and to see if there's anything to work with going forward.
I don't know because i haven't been paying attention that closely.... but obviously, in the past few games he's been getting short stints. When he was starting earlier in the year, he was getting those extended runs, right?
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No worries, Ner's. Derrick was not good last year, you're right about that, but the ONLY alternative was a freshman who is now red shirting at Liberty. JJJ is competing with guys (Carlino, Duane and Sandy) for minutes who are playing much better than he is. If you want to include Derrick (they're not really in competition) he's playing way better than JJJ too. Three spots for 5 players and JJJ has EARNED his spot as the fifth option after beginning the season as a starter. He has nobody to blame but himself.
I'll go to my grave (as you know) saying Dawson would not have been a worse option last season. :) I think Buzz could have run Todd at PG too - if he was hell bent on giving Jake 30 minutes a game.
As for JJJ this year, I'm baffled as to what to think. He begins the season as a starter (as I recall?), has a strong game against ASU...22 points, 4 rebounds, 3 steals in 32 minutes. Scores 9,19 and 13 in his next 3 games after ASU in 22, 29 and 26 minutes. Conference play rolls around against DePaul and he drops to 17 minutes - gets 9 points, 4 rebounds. Then Providence only goes 3-13 from field in 25 minutes but grabs 10 boards, 5 assists and 2 steals. Minutes since then have been 20, 12, DNP, 12, 15, 7.
Personally, I don't blame the kid for being frustrated.
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I don't know because i haven't been paying attention that closely.... but obviously, in the past few games he's been getting short stints. When he was starting earlier in the year, he was getting those extended runs, right?
I get what you're saying but I want to see what he does in conference, so should Wojo.
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That was in second half when MU was down 24
Everyone referring to first half at 14 minute mark, when he went for weak layup and yanked. He had played maybe 30 seconds.
But then he got a much longer chance, was allowed to shoot, and still didn't produce.
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Play the twins. We had absolutely nothing to lose at this point.
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Sandy worked his way up to his current minutes in short stints. It started with improving his defense, then hitting open threes, then adding driving. Now he's a surprisingly solid all around player for a freshman. I really wish Jajuan would do the same, but there's just no way to justify giving him minutes that he isn't earning.
Let's play devil's advocate. If Jajuan is given minutes that aren't reflective of his play, how would that sit with guys like Sandy, Juan, and Steve that are producing more and working harder, even if they may not be as athletic.
Jajuan may well be the most physically gifted guy on the team, which only makes this more frustrating, because he's also pretty clearly been the worst guy. I would love to see him put it together because with his raw ability he could be another Jerel McNeal. But with what he's been doing on the court, he simply doesn't deserve more minutes, and if we were remotely deep, he'd pretty clearly deserve less :(
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I just love that people knock Juan for only being able to score against low-major teams yet they cry for JJJ to get more time because when he was getting long stints he was scoring. Guess who those scoring games came against? Low major competition. He has 9 career double digit scoring games in a year and a half and one came against Arizona State. The next best team it came against? North Dakota maybe? I guess the question becomes "which was the tallest of the midgets?"
It doesn't take much to see that JJJ doesn't rebound well, doesn't defend well, doesn't shoot well (and that's not changing unless his shot form changes, which at 20 years old with probably about 12 years of that form it's not changing anytime soon), doesn't distribute well, and has a loose handle. Hopefully he can improve on a number of these areas, but until he does just playing a guy to play him makes no sense, whether the season is a lost cause or not. There is no lottery in college basketball for recruits. Winning every game even when you have no chance of making the tournament does no harm. Put the 5 best out on the court and make every attempt to win every game. You need to create a winning culture, and sitting your better players just because they're older in an unsuccessful year does the complete opposite of that. "Hey guys, we haven't won enough this year so we're throwing the towel in." That's a good competitive mindset and the type of attitude I want my team to have right there.
Play your best players. It's clear to see that JJJ is not one of the best players on this team.
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I agree - Buzz's success with high school kids was oddly low, given how many Top 100 kids he brought to MU. But, the highest rated were Vander and JJJ...and they look an awful lot alike in so many ways at this stage within their careers - as 2nd semester sophomores.
Burton will kill it at Iowa State. Perhaps JJJ will be joining him there too. ;D MU is starting a pipeline now of kids transferring out of MU and going on to good career at ISU. Christopherson. McKay. Burton.
Maybe we should let Burton lay a game before we anoint him a star and declare that he has already had a good career at ISU.
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I just love that people knock Juan for only being able to score against low-major teams yet they cry for JJJ to get more time because when he was getting long stints he was scoring. Guess who those scoring games came against? Low major competition. He has 9 career double digit scoring games in a year and a half and one came against Arizona State. The next best team it came against? North Dakota maybe? I guess the question becomes "which was the tallest of the midgets?"
It doesn't take much to see that JJJ doesn't rebound well, (opinion) doesn't defend well, doesn't shoot well (and that's not changing unless his shot form changes, which at 20 years old with probably about 12 years of that form it's not changing anytime soon), doesn't distribute well, and has a loose handle. Hopefully he can improve on a number of these areas, but until he does just playing a guy to play him makes no sense, whether the season is a lost cause or not. There is no lottery in college basketball for recruits. Winning every game even when you have no chance of making the tournament does no harm. Put the 5 best out on the court and make every attempt to win every game. You need to create a winning culture, and sitting your better players just because they're older in an unsuccessful year does the complete opposite of that. "Hey guys, we haven't won enough this year so we're throwing the towel in." That's a good competitive mindset and the type of attitude I want my team to have right there.
Play your best players. It's clear to see that JJJ is not one of the best players on this team.
You are clueless. And yet what is incredibly funny is that you also have double standards. You champion a guy like Derrick getting max minutes and being deserving, and crap on a sophomore who has so much more talent,potential and production (if scoring matters in basketball??) than Derrick it is comical. May want to revisit Bama's column on Derrick's improvement this year..he also adds commentary on JJJ's defense - which is much better than you recognize/realize.
Stick to evaluating something you know more about - volleyball.
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That was in second half when MU was down 24
Everyone referring to first half at 14 minute mark, when he went for weak layup and yanked. He had played maybe 30 seconds.
For the record, he checked in at 14:53 and checked out at 13:18 in the first half.
Far too often fans believe things like, "He missed a shot so the coach pulled him." As anyone who has played the game will tell you, ;) that's almost never the case. Coaches don't pull players because they miss a shot. They pull players because they aren't doing what is asked of them. For all we know, JJJ may have been pulled because of a poor defensive rotation or for not running the right offensive set or for not boxing out or for not doing whatever else it was that Wojo and the staff had been drilling into the players' heads all week in preparation for this game. Players who have a "short leash" are in that position because typically they're not doing what is being asked of them.
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No fatigue? Can't be---we play 8 and fatigue sets in seems like every game.
If tonight's loss was based on fatigue why did we get killed the first 10 minutes of the second half, and then had a really good run after that? Were always at a disadvantage playing 6, but I thought there was more prominent factors tonight. I would like to see us switch up our defense more often. SH had a lot of good looks especially when we extended our 1-3-1 to their side of the court. I give SH a lot of credit for knocking down the open perimeter shots, since the last three games they haven't
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Jajuan may well be the most physically gifted guy on the team, which only makes this more frustrating, because he's also pretty clearly been the worst guy. I would love to see him put it together because with his raw ability he could be another Jerel McNeal.
I think my head is about to explode, seriously, Jerel McNeal?
People, it's ok, let it go, he's no good, and he never will be at MU or anywhere on this level. He's an ok mid-major player at best. Life as an MU fan goes on, we'll replace him with someone better.
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You are clueless. And yet what is incredibly funny is that you also have double standards. You champion a guy like Derrick getting max minutes and being deserving, and crap on a sophomore who has so much more talent,potential and production (if scoring matters in basketball??) than Derrick it is comical. May want to revisit Bama's column on Derrick's improvement this year..he also adds commentary on JJJ's defense - which is much better than you recognize/realize.
Stick to evaluating something you know more about - volleyball.
According to Bama, Derrick is the second best player on the team...JjJ is the 7th.
I'm sorry but once again, you have bet on the wrong horse. JjJ is playing like the worst player on the team right now and his PT is getting limited as a result. I think you see and recognize that. If I understand correctly, you just want to start playing for the future.
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So JJJ is a defensive whiz now. It would be great to see JJJ play well, but the fact of the matter is he just isn't putting it together. As someone else said, if this was a deeper team he'd be playing even less or not at all.
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Any argument that Wojo is misusing JJJ gets blown up by Sandy Cohen. Sandy is producing, Sandy is getting more minutes. JJJ isn't.
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You are clueless. And yet what is incredibly funny is that you also have double standards. You champion a guy like Derrick getting max minutes and being deserving, and crap on a sophomore who has so much more talent,potential and production (if scoring matters in basketball??) than Derrick it is comical. May want to revisit Bama's column on Derrick's improvement this year..he also adds commentary on JJJ's defense - which is much better than you recognize/realize.
Stick to evaluating something you know more about - volleyball.
Way to open a post attacking the poster instead of the post. Really helps build strong dialog on the board.
You clearly love to root for the "option B" on this team. The results are bad therefore this alternative MUST be better. While a guy like Sandy is showing what happens when you take advantage of the opportunities given, you continue to focus on JjJ's short leash. The fact of the matter is JjJ's leash is as long as he's made it; he's had opportunities to earn a longer leash just as Sandy has yet hasn't proven himself to the coaching staff. To just give the guy more run would undermine the message Wojo is trying to send: if you want more playing time, go out and earn it!
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Love you Ners, but you are the guy that constantly roots for the backup quarterback. You are the guy who wanted to bench Brett Farve because he turned the ball over too much and wanted to play Ty Detmer, because he was great at BYU. I get it, you want the best for the team, and given where we find ourselves I don't have a problem giving JJJ a few more minutes--earned or not--only because I can see upping Sandy's minutes as well. Sandy has at least earned those minutes and deserves to be rewarded. Down by 20 I have no issue throwing undeserved minutes at a younger player. (and yes, the Farve comparison is intentionally ridiculous--as is this entire continued discussion)
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If tonight's loss was based on fatigue why did we get killed the first 10 minutes of the second half, and then had a really good run after that? Were always at a disadvantage playing 6, but I thought there was more prominent factors tonight. I would like to see us switch up our defense more often. SH had a lot of good looks especially when we extended our 1-3-1 to their side of the court. I give SH a lot of credit for knocking down the open perimeter shots, since the last three games they haven't
Should have put in teal. Fatigue is a common excuse around here.
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I think my head is about to explode, seriously, Jerel McNeal?
People, it's ok, let it go, he's no good, and he never will be at MU or anywhere on this level. He's an ok mid-major player at best. Life as an MU fan goes on, we'll replace him with someone better.
I don't think Jajuan will ever be Jerel McNeal, I'm not at all saying that. I'm just saying the skillset is there. He has the length and quickness to be disruptive in the lane, the ability to drive, and is good at getting free on the perimeter (though that may be part of the defense knowing he's 7/44 from beyond the arc).
The difference is Jerel was more ready physically coming in, and more importantly he developed his game. Jajuan hasn't done either of those things, so while he might have the raw talent, I think a better comparison for him in terms of what he's actually done would be Jamail Jones. Makes the occasional great defensive play or spectacular offensive finish, but usually follows it up with a couple "WTF" moments that leave you scratching your head.
Please don't think I'm comparing Jajuan to Jerel. He's not in that league, not even close. Just saying the flashes of physical potential remind me a lot of things Jerel used to do.
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Oh, hey, another thread turned into an endless Derrick bashing thread? Good, we needed one of those.
Orange may be the new black, but JJJ is the new Dawson.
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I don't think Jajuan will ever be Jerel McNeal, I'm not at all saying that. I'm just saying the skillset is there. He has the length and quickness to be disruptive in the lane, the ability to drive, and is good at getting free on the perimeter (though that may be part of the defense knowing he's 7/44 from beyond the arc).
The difference is Jerel was more ready physically coming in, and more importantly he developed his game. Jajuan hasn't done either of those things, so while he might have the raw talent, I think a better comparison for him in terms of what he's actually done would be Jamail Jones. Makes the occasional great defensive play or spectacular offensive finish, but usually follows it up with a couple "WTF" moments that leave you scratching your head.
Please don't think I'm comparing Jajuan to Jerel. He's not in that league, not even close. Just saying the flashes of physical potential remind me a lot of things Jerel used to do.
He may be a decent athlete, but he's not really a basketball player. Can't shoot (horrible form)...can't play D...can't take care of the ball. JJJ will continue to tease us with an occasional great move, but then he won't be heard from again for several games.
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No left hand, either. That layup he blew in the first half would have been an easy left handed layup and probably a foul. Instead he shied away from contact and turned it into a difficult floater. And getting beat as badly as he did in transition in the second half nailed his ass to the bench, and rightfully so.
I said it earlier in the season, I get a "Jamail Jones" vibe from him. Highly ranked out of HS, but never able to hack it at a high-major level.
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Any argument that Wojo is misusing JJJ gets blown up by Sandy Cohen. Sandy is producing, Sandy is getting more minutes. JJJ isn't.
Sandy and Duane show that Wojo is willing to play players and allow them to improve on the court. One of the concerns I have with JJJ is not only has there been no improvement, but this is the second coach in as many years who has given him a chance, only to see him falling further and further down the depth chart.
So why are Sandy and Duane, who while still facing up and downs ARE improving, while JJJ is basically static? I hate to say it, but he doesn't seem to be terribly coachable at this level. He may just need to be at an OVC school where he can dominate with his athleticism because he can't do that here.
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Wojo needs to bench the seniors and give the underclassman at least 48 minutes per game each.
Yes, I'm suggesting that MU try to go into overtime to get more playing time for these guys.
Games minutes and longer leashes are the keys to the future. Hopefully Wojo figures that out.
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I said it earlier in the season, I get a "Jamail Jones" vibe from him. Highly ranked out of HS, but never able to hack it at a high-major level.
That is a very solid observation, and I thought the same thing after the game.
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Sandy and Duane show that Wojo is willing to play players and allow them to improve on the court. One of the concerns I have with JJJ is not only has there been no improvement, but this is the second coach in as many years who has given him a chance, only to see him falling further and further down the depth chart.
So why are Sandy and Duane, who while still facing up and downs ARE improving, while JJJ is basically static? I hate to say it, but he doesn't seem to be terribly coachable at this level. He may just need to be at an OVC school where he can dominate with his athleticism because he can't do that here.
I don't disagree, as I am disappointed as well, but for now, I'd just chalk it up to being a late bloomer. He's still less than 1/2 way through his career. He could have a great summer of workouts and come back next season as a good player. As frustrated as I am, I don't think I can throw something like "uncoachable" out there (yet).
However, just to be clear, I don't ever expect him to be all-conf. like some people. But, that also doesn't mean he's a mid-major player either.
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Oh, hey, another thread turned into an endless Derrick bashing thread? Good, we needed one of those.
Orange may be the new black, but JJJ is the new Dawson.
If Derrick would have transferred after last year, and we brought in some graduate transfer who was putting up Derrick's numbers from this year, the collective Scoop would be saying "he's not great, but he's solid."
That's what Derrick is. 10 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists and 2 turnovers? I will take that anyday.
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That's what Derrick is. 10 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists and 2 turnovers? I will take that anyday.
An overtime or two from a triple double! More than a few heads would have exploded had he became the first MU player to do it since D Wade.
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I don't disagree, as I am disappointed as well, but for now, I'd just chalk it up to being a late bloomer. He's still less than 1/2 way through his career. He could have a great summer of workouts and come back next season as a good player. As frustrated as I am, I don't think I can throw something like "uncoachable" out there (yet).
However, just to be clear, I don't ever expect him to be all-conf. like some people. But, that also doesn't mean he's a mid-major player either.
I spent some time last night going back and reading up on his recruitment. I came across an article like this:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/sports/high-school/recruiting-insider-southwind-junior-explodes-a
He was a 2013 unranked prospect until the summer before his senior year, who exploded on the scene due to his AAU performance - a type of game that likely fit his skills.
This is the problem with players like this. We can hope and pray that they are "late-bloomers" (like we are with Sacar Anim), but oftentimes they turnout to simply have gotten real good at the right time in a moment that fit their skills.
Believe me, I would like nothing better than for JJJ to stay and prove me wrong. But when I see Duane, I see a player who is generally fundamentally sound and is usually making smart decisions, but lacks the experience and consistency to dominate. I simply don't see that with JJJ.
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I don't disagree, as I am disappointed as well, but for now, I'd just chalk it up to being a late bloomer. He's still less than 1/2 way through his career. He could have a great summer of workouts and come back next season as a good player. As frustrated as I am, I don't think I can throw something like "uncoachable" out there (yet).
However, just to be clear, I don't ever expect him to be all-conf. like some people. But, that also doesn't mean he's a mid-major player either.
Play devil's advocate, it's also possible that, like Sultan alluded to, JJJ already was a late-bloomer and he's maxed out.
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Believe me, I would like nothing better than for JJJ to stay and prove me wrong. But when I see Duane, I see a player who is generally fundamentally sound and is usually making smart decisions, but lacks the experience and consistency to dominate.
And I see a guy that is easing into a leadership role. The staff was on him to be more vocal on the court (especially on defense) and he's responded well. They'll ride through his ups and downs offensively, because they know he'll do what they need him to do.
Jajuan's biggest problem has been the same over two seasons now. When he scores right away, he's engaged on both ends. When he doesn't, he checks out. That's why Duane gets far more rope.
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And I see a guy that is easing into a leadership role. The staff was on him to be more vocal on the court (especially on defense) and he's responded well. They'll ride through his ups and downs offensively, because they know he'll do what they need him to do.
Agreed. Duane was jawing at SH players and later his own on the press, demanding that they get a steal. He was directing Luke on where he should be on the block in certain sets. It was great to see last night.
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An overtime or two from a triple double! More than a few heads would have exploded had he became the first MU player to do it since D Wade.
But he did not do it. C'mon man, don't try to sneak a Wade comparison in there.
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Play devil's advocate, it's also possible that, like Sultan alluded to, JJJ already was a late-bloomer and he's maxed out.
Totally fair. The kid may never be a high level D1 player.
I guess for me, I don't ever expect him to be an all-conf. type player, but I think he still has potential to be pretty good/solid as an upper classman.
I know some people hate Derrick and/or Juan, but to me, those are important players. Those type of players provide continuity and build the culture of the program. Then, when you add star-level talent, you have a good mix and can compete at a high level. MU isn't Kentucky. They can't rebuild the program every year. You need some solid veterans that can provide minutes.
Examples of what I'm talking about: Ousmane, Jon Harris, Cooby, Acker, Burke, etc.
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An overtime or two from a triple double! More than a few heads would have exploded had he became the first MU player to do it since D Wade.
I believe he had 4/6/4 at halftime and I was thinking if Derrick got hot in the second he could do it. Instead, almost everyone got ice cold.
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I know some people hate Derrick and/or Juan, but to me, those are important players. Those type of players provide continuity and build the culture of the program. Then, when you add star-level talent, you have a good mix and can compete at a high level. MU isn't Kentucky. They can't rebuild the program every year. You need some solid veterans that can provide minutes.
Examples of what I'm talking about: Ousmane, Jon Harris, Cooby, Acker, Burke, etc.
I agree with you, but the problem I see with JJJ compared to those types is that they generally did *something* well. They worked hard, usually played smart, could defend, etc. Even early in their careers you could say "OK, this guy is clearly not a star, but I can see how he could be a cog in the machine."
The problem with JJJ is that I really can't say, outside of being an athlete, *what* he does well right now.
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I agree with you, but the problem I see with JJJ compared to those types is that they generally did *something* well. They worked hard, usually played smart, could defend, etc. Even early in their careers you could say "OK, this guy is clearly not a star, but I can see how he could be a cog in the machine."
The problem with JJJ is that I really can't say, outside of being an athlete, *what* he does well right now.
Steals is a strength of his. The only issue is when he bites so hard on a steal attempt that he ends up near the halfcourt line
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I agree with you, but the problem I see with JJJ compared to those types is that they generally did *something* well. They worked hard, usually played smart, could defend, etc. Even early in their careers you could say "OK, this guy is clearly not a star, but I can see how he could be a cog in the machine."
The problem with JJJ is that I really can't say, outside of being an athlete, *what* he does well right now.
Totally fair.
My honest assessment: The kid is a bit of a mess right now.
He doesn't have a signature skill (as you have pointed out), but he has some overall abilities that could make him a good player as he matures, adds strength, gets smarter, etc.
He's actually a bit like Juan. Juan didn't really have a signature skill, but seemed to be "okay" at everything. As Juan has matured, he's not an all-conf. player, but he's certainly a good role player.
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Steals is a strength of his. The only issue is when he bites so hard on a steal attempt that he ends up near the halfcourt line
Steals without being an adequate positional defender are fool's gold. You give up way more than you get.
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Totally fair.
My honest assessment: The kid is a bit of a mess right now.
He doesn't have a signature skill (as you have pointed out), but he has some overall abilities that could make him a good player as he matures, adds strength, gets smarter, etc.
He's actually a bit like Juan. Juan didn't really have a signature skill, but seemed to be "okay" at everything. As Juan has matured, he's not an all-conf. player, but he's certainly a good role player.
I understand that. On the one hand, I do hope that JJJ can become Juan. That would be an improvement.
On the other hand, I hope we won't have to rely on players like Juan to give us 25+ minutes two years from now.
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And I see a guy that is easing into a leadership role. The staff was on him to be more vocal on the court (especially on defense) and he's responded well. They'll ride through his ups and downs offensively, because they know he'll do what they need him to do.
This is why I feel Duane needs to play with Derrick as much as possible. All this "play for next year" talk only works if the guys playing for next year are benefiting, and I believe Duane will benefit a ton being on the court with Derrick. No one is better at making defensive calls and getting guys into position better than Derrick. Duane is starting to be more vocal and playing with a guy who excels at that will prepare him better for next year and beyond when this is truly his team.
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I understand that. On the one hand, I do hope that JJJ can become Juan. That would be an improvement.
On the other hand, I hope we won't have to rely on players like Juan to give us 25+ minutes two years from now.
I think Juan could be a good role player on a good team.
MU's problem is the lack of high end talent right now.
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Steals without being an adequate positional defender are fool's gold. You give up way more than you get.
See: Burton, Deonte, circa 2013-14
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I think Juan could be a good role player on a good team.
MU's problem is the lack of high end talent right now.
Todd Townsend was a starter on a Final Four team. Good teams most definitely have room for players like Juan. However, problems arise when a team has to count on energy role players to be primary scoring options.
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Steals without being an adequate positional defender are fool's gold. You give up way more than you get.
Bingo. Nailed it on the head.
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Steals without being an adequate positional defender are fool's gold. You give up way more than you get.
Opinion.
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Should have put in teal. Fatigue is a common excuse around here.
I feel fatigued after reading this thread. And it's not an excuse.