MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on December 18, 2014, 12:37:46 PM
-
Tower wrote this in his "euphoria" post and I thought it was worthy of its discussion ...
3. I know I need to remind myself that it was only one game against a team that wasn't that great, that really didn't have a plan how to handle Luke. That isn't going to be the case going forward.
First question, did ASU make a scouting mistake? Sure they watched film and all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm sure they knew some new guy name Luke Fischer was new to the team. But, did they appreciate his reputation and what he would mean for MU? It also seemed to me that they acted like "who is this guy" when Luke checked in. They did not know what to do with him.
Second question, now the secret is out and teams now have tape when scouting MU. So, this is not going to happen again. What does it mean going forward? My guess ... teams are going to pack the lane to deny Fischer on offense. That opens up the perimeter for shooters. This benefits Duane and JJJ (good outside shooters) and not Derrick and Juan (not good outside shooters).
On the other hand, on defense this means Luke can do in the lane what 2 guys were doing before. So this benefits our better defensive players than like Derrick and Juan and less JJJ and STj.
So, how do you think things change now that the "Luke Fischer secret" is out? Will we see him have his way in the lane like he did against ASU? Or, do we need another shooting night like JJJ had to keep the lane open for Fischer?
Thoughts/Comments?
-
Tower wrote this in his "euphoria" post and I thought it was worthy of its discussion ...
3. I know I need to remind myself that it was only one game against a team that wasn't that great, that really didn't have a plan how to handle Luke. That isn't going to be the case going forward.
First question, did ASU make a scouting mistake? Sure they watched film and all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm sure they knew some new guy name Luke Fischer was new to the team. But, did they appreciate his reputation and what he would mean for MU? It also seemed to me that they acted like "who is this guy" when Luke checked in. They did not know what to do with him.
Second question, now the secret is out and teams now have tape when scouting MU. So, this is not going to happen again. What does it mean going forward? My guess ... teams are going to pack the lane to deny Fischer on offense. That opens up the perimeter for shooters. This benefits Duane and JJJ (good outside shooters) and not Derrick and Juan (not good outside shooters).
On the other hand, on defense this means Luke can do in the lane what 2 guys were doing before. So this benefits our better defensive players than like Derrick and Juan and less JJJ and STj.
So, how do you think things change now that the "Luke Fischer secret" is out? Will we see him have his way in the lane like he did against ASU? Or, do we need another shooting night like JJJ had to keep the lane open for Fischer?
Thoughts/Comments?
Agree with most of what you said. I think Luke will become a focal point and we'll get alot more open shots from outside. Only thing I disagree with is Juan is as good as/better than JaJuan at outside shooting. I know it's a small sample size but Juan is shooting 46% from deep and JaJuan is at 21%. JaJuan's percentage will likely go up and Juan's down, but I would bet that Juan ends up with a higher percentage at the end of the year.
-
Tower wrote this in his "euphoria" post and I thought it was worthy of its discussion ...
3. I know I need to remind myself that it was only one game against a team that wasn't that great, that really didn't have a plan how to handle Luke. That isn't going to be the case going forward.
First question, did ASU make a scouting mistake? Sure they watched film and all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm sure they knew some new guy name Luke Fischer was new to the team. But, did they appreciate his reputation and what he would mean for MU? It also seemed to me that they acted like "who is this guy" when Luke checked in. They did not know what to do with him.
Second question, now the secret is out and teams now have tape when scouting MU. So, this is not going to happen again. What does it mean going forward? My guess ... teams are going to pack the lane to deny Fischer on offense. That opens up the perimeter for shooters. This benefits Duane and JJJ (good outside shooters) and not Derrick and Juan (not good outside shooters).
On the other hand, on defense this means Luke can do in the lane what 2 guys were doing before. So this benefits our better defensive players than like Derrick and Juan and less JJJ and STj.
So, how do you think things change now that the "Luke Fischer secret" is out? Will we see him have his way in the lane like he did against ASU? Or, do we need another shooting night like JJJ had to keep the lane open for Fischer?
Thoughts/Comments?
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time. He will get more attention for sure, but he showed enough IQ to kick it out several times and not force things. So in some respects, I hope teams build their strategies around stopping Luke thus leaving Duane, Carlino, JJJ , Juan more space to do their thing.
-
First question, did ASU make a scouting mistake? Sure they watched film and all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm sure they knew some new guy name Luke Fischer was new to the team. But, did they appreciate his reputation and what he would mean for MU? It also seemed to me that they acted like "who is this guy" when Luke checked in. They did not know what to do with him.
I'm still a bit surprised by this--its not like it was a secret that Luke was going to be a big presence for us. Maybe some of the specifics of how he'll play were uncertain, but all of the press leading up to the game (and even in general, about our season) was about adding Fisch. Even FS1 was focused on it, as they showed numerous shots of him on the bench at the beginning of the game (couldn't hear the audio at our MU bar to hear what they were saying about him). It wasn't really a secret to anyone, it seemed, other than ASU.
So, yes, maybe they made a scouting mistake, even if Luke played better than anyone actually anticipated--its like they had NO plan for him whatsoever.
-
Tower wrote this in his "euphoria" post and I thought it was worthy of its discussion ...
3. I know I need to remind myself that it was only one game against a team that wasn't that great, that really didn't have a plan how to handle Luke. That isn't going to be the case going forward.
First question, did ASU make a scouting mistake? Sure they watched film and all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm sure they knew some new guy name Luke Fischer was new to the team. But, did they appreciate his reputation and what he would mean for MU? It also seemed to me that they acted like "who is this guy" when Luke checked in. They did not know what to do with him.
Second question, now the secret is out and teams now have tape when scouting MU. So, this is not going to happen again. What does it mean going forward? My guess ... teams are going to pack the lane to deny Fischer on offense. That opens up the perimeter for shooters. This benefits Duane and JJJ (good outside shooters) and not Derrick and Juan (not good outside shooters).
On the other hand, on defense this means Luke can do in the lane what 2 guys were doing before. So this benefits our better defensive players than like Derrick and Juan and less JJJ and STj.
So, how do you think things change now that the "Luke Fischer secret" is out? Will we see him have his way in the lane like he did against ASU? Or, do we need another shooting night like JJJ had to keep the lane open for Fischer?
Thoughts/Comments?
what does it mean going forward? It means that going forward teams are going to double Luke by dropping off whoever cannot threaten them from downtown. Better be ready to move without the ball when Luke has it and be in position to make a bunch of threes.
-
He looked like a willing passer on cuts as well, so when doubled he should be getting guys open in a number of ways, not just 3 balls
-
Going forward, MU is going to have to anticipate that the other teams are going to do what they always do when there is a versatile post threat. There will be double teams. Anticipate the kickout and be (A) ready to shoot or (B) destroy the rotations and recovery with rapid ball movement. Think of what other teams have done to MU over the years when MU has had to double the post and recover. Or, think of it as another variation of a 'paint touch'. Force the help, exploit the rotation. Yes, this will not help Derrick as much as some others. He is going to have to move the ball quickly. Yes, Deonte would have really benefitted playing the high post or weak side with Luke on the low block. Yes, they frequently doubled Davante but he didn't really look to pass.
-
We played a completely different style against ASU compared to our prior games. It had to have been difficult for ASU to come up with multiple strategies. My guess is that they concentrated more on our zone defense even with Fisher and they nor I nor most in the BC had any idea how big of an impact Fisher was going to provide. I tempered my expectations as I tend to be a glass is half full type and I was blown away at how dominant Fisher was in that first half especially. The impact on the defensive end was unbelievable. I think ASU was shellshocked.
Teams will now have a scouting report on Fisher and how we play on both ends of the court and they will make adjustments.
-
did ASU make a scouting mistake?
If they didn't make a scouting mistake, they sure didn't make the right adjustments.
Coach Maurice Sendek's players continued the theme of "Where the Wild Shots Are" by putting their heads down, driving the lane, and launching rainbows that they were worried would be blocked.
-
Second question, now the secret is out and teams now have tape when scouting MU. So, this is not going to happen again. What does it mean going forward? My guess ... teams are going to pack the lane to deny Fischer on offense. That opens up the perimeter for shooters. This benefits Duane and JJJ (good outside shooters) and not Derrick and Juan (not good outside shooters).
I know not your question but this biggest benefactor for perimeter shooting will be Carlino. Duane second, then JJJ/Juan.
-
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time. He will get more attention for sure, but he showed enough IQ to kick it out several times and not force things. So in some respects, I hope teams build their strategies around stopping Luke thus leaving Duane, Carlino, JJJ , Juan more space to do their thing.
Was Otule not on the team enough years that he is already forgotten?
-
When the ball went into Otule, it never came back out. Luke has a much greater set of skills than O. O was a great story but not very versatile.
Having said that, wish we had him as backup for his 7th year.
-
What ASU could not of known was that a player who had not played in a year could defend the middle so well without fouling.
-
Was Otule not on the team enough years that he is already forgotten?
I love Chris and wish we still had him for a 7th year. But by Aircraft Carrier I mean a 20 point 10 rebound kind of guy big man who is the focus of the opposition.
-
What ASU could not of known was that a player who had not played in a year could defend the middle so well without fouling.
Even I forget that Luke had a 1/2 year of practicing with Gardner and Otule. That had to help.
-
Great point. And I am not just saying that because you are an all-powerful moderator who gave us all a Christmas present. ;D Luke practiced half a season against Gardner and Otule. If he could guard Davante and score on Chris.....
-
I love Chris and wish we still had him for a 7th year. But by Aircraft Carrier I mean a 20 point 10 rebound kind of guy big man who is the focus of the opposition.
+1 Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while (his first touch notwithstanding). As much as I too loved Otule and Ousmane, I always held my breath on the entry pass, waiting for the ball to end up down around their ankles.
-
+1 Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while (his first touch notwithstanding). As much as I too loved Otule and Ousmane, I always held my breath on the entry pass, waiting for the ball to end up down around their ankles.
So Gardner's four years are now forgotten too.
-
So Gardner's four years are now forgotten too.
Unless he was 3 inches taller than I remember...
My original thought was that Luke is the Oxtule -- Chris' height and Davante's hands.
-
Great point. And I am not just saying that because you are an all-powerful moderator who gave us all a Christmas present. ;D Luke practiced half a season against Gardner and Otule. If he could guard Davante and score on Chris.....
speaking of which.. was it ever reported or know how well Luke was playing against those 2 in practice?
-
So Gardner's four years are now forgotten too.
You are not really thinking through the meaning behind posts before replying are you?
-
I love Chris and wish we still had him for a 7th year. But by Aircraft Carrier I mean a 20 point 10 rebound kind of guy big man who is the focus of the opposition.
That is basically what Al meant, as well. He wasn't just talking about a big body.
-
That performance on Tuesday was the one I waited 6 years for Otule to have. Never happened. Not Once.
-
That is basically what Al meant, as well. He wasn't just talking about a big body.
See: Jim Chones
-
You are not really thinking through the meaning behind posts before replying are you?
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
He was hurt in like the 8th game our 2nd S16 year. I don't really remember that the year before. I remember Junior turning it on.
-
I love Chris and wish we still had him for a 7th year. But by Aircraft Carrier I mean a 20 point 10 rebound kind of guy big man who is the focus of the opposition.
I highly doubt Luke will ever live up to your definition of "Aircraft Carrier" either. Seriously, do you know how rare a player averaging 20 and 10 actually is?
Luke's game against ASU would have been below average if 20 and 10 was the standard.
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
No revisionist history here. Gardner was 6"8, Luke is 6"11, he doesn't have the same size as Luke. Ergo, the comment was correct.
Otule was only effective on one side of the ball. I loved the guy but he NEVER had a game like Fischer had against Arizona State. And that was Luke's debut for Marquette.
And as I recall ONE poster on here thought Otule was getting drafted. The rest of us laughed at him.
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
Some career highs for Chris Otule:
Points: 19 vs. Longwood (12/4/10)
Rebounds: 11 vs. Davidson (3/21/13)
Blocks: 4 vs. USF (1/28/13)
So, in his first game, Luke beat, tied and just missed Otule's career high marks. I realize that it's easy to get caught up in hyperbole, but the truth is that MU has not seen a two-way performance of that caliber from a big in a long time.
-
That performance on Tuesday was the one I waited 6 years for Otule to have. Never happened. Not Once.
Otule
Nov 20, 2010, 15 points, 8 rebs agaisnt South Dakota (and Jake Thomas)
Nov 27, 2010, 19 points, 5 rebs against Longwood
Feb 27, 2011, 16 points, 6 rebs, 4 blks against Providence
March 3, 2013, 16 points, 4 rebs against #21 ND
redshirt 2011/2012
March 21, 2013, 11 points and 11 rebs against Davidson
Nov 21, 2013, 16 points, 7 rebs against NH
Nov 12, 2103 17 points and 6 against Grambling
Dec 7, 2013 11 points and 9 rebs against #8 Wisconsin
Also in 2010/2011 - Otule's 55 blocks was the most by an MU player in a single-season since Faisal Abraham (84) in 1996-97.
Yes Luke had 19 points, 9 rebs and 5 blks, which is better than all of Otule's game, but only marginally so. So Otule came very close to that performance many times, you just elected to not remember them as a way to further hype Luke.
But if you think that Luke's stat line against ASU will be a typical game the rest of the way, then I will tell you he's going to a lottery pick next summer and well never know how he would have played with Ellenson.
So, let's stop pretending we have been undersized at the 5 since Robert Jackson to promote Luke.
We had a serviceable 5 for many years with OXtule, now Luke could be taking that position to the next level.
-
I highly doubt Luke will ever live up to your definition of "Aircraft Carrier" either. Seriously, do you know how rare a player averaging 20 and 10 actually is?
Luke's game against ASU would have been below average if 20 and 10 was the standard.
+1
If any of you guys think Luke will go through the BE schedule (four ranked teams, 3 other getting votes) as a "20/10 guy" then enjoy the next 15 games because he's coming out and will be a lottery pick next summer.
He'll also be BE POY and get consideration for the Wooden award.
And MU is going to the NCAA Tourney
So understand the impossible standard you just set up.
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
One or two dopes compared Otule to Roy Hibbert and that means "we were wondering where Otule would be drafted? Please.
Luke defended the rim more Tuesday than Gardner did in 4 years. And Luke had more smooth post moves around the basket Tuesday than Otule did in 6 years.
Obviously, we don't know how good Luke will turn out to be yet. He has played one game for the Warriors. But in that one game ... wow!
-
One or two dopes compared Otule to Roy Hibbert and that means "we were wondering where Otule would be drafted? Please.
Luke defended the rim more Tuesday than Gardner did in 4 years. And Luke had more smooth post moves around the basket Tuesday than Otule did in 6 years.
Obviously, we don't know how good Luke will turn out to be yet. He has played one game for the Warriors. But in that one game ... wow!
I love Luke as much as everyone else.
I'm pushing back at the revisionist history that says OXtule were crap and did nothing. That is what is being suggested.
-
I love Luke as much as everyone else.
I'm pushing back at the revisionist history that says OXtule were crap and did nothing. That is what is being suggested.
Fair enough. I liked Otule and I also liked Gardner. I didn't like them on the court together, and each frustrated me at times. But we had very nice success as a team during most of their time as Warriors.
Still, I think we can all admit that nobody who knows anything about basketball actually thought Otule had even a 1% chance of playing in the NBA. And Gardner's chances were only slightly better. Otule was a decent college role player; Gardner, when motivated, was a very good offensive big -- especially for a 6-8 guy who couldn't dunk!
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
O'Tule wasn't skilled enough offensively to be considered a dominate presence in the middle. DeVante was a unique player who belied his lack of height and like Barkley used his prodigious ass and nimble feet to score inside. Luke has multiple skills, post moves, good hands, good vision and the height to be considered an "Aircraft Carrier".
What impressed me most was his ability to absorb contact and not end up 15' from the hoop. He was stronger than I expected and went strong to the hole, scored with both hands and displayed a soft, mid range jumper. Albeit against mediocre competition, but still he looked to be in midseason form.
-
Otule
Nov 20, 2010, 15 points, 8 rebs agaisnt South Dakota (and Jake Thomas)
Nov 27, 2010, 19 points, 5 rebs against Longwood
Feb 27, 2011, 16 points, 6 rebs, 4 blks against Providence
March 3, 2013, 16 points, 4 rebs against #21 ND
redshirt 2011/2012
March 21, 2013, 11 points and 11 rebs against Davidson
Nov 21, 2013, 16 points, 7 rebs against NH
Nov 12, 2103 17 points and 6 against Grambling
Dec 7, 2013 11 points and 9 rebs against #8 Wisconsin
Also in 2010/2011 - Otule's 55 blocks was the most by an MU player in a single-season since Faisal Abraham (84) in 1996-97.
Yes Luke had 19 points, 9 rebs and 5 blks, which is better than all of Otule's game, but only marginally so. So Otule came very close to that performance many times, you just elected to not remember them as a way to further hype Luke.
But if you think that Luke's stat line against ASU will be a typical game the rest of the way, then I will tell you he's going to a lottery pick next summer and well never know how he would have played with Ellenson.
So, let's stop pretending we have been undersized at the 5 since Robert Jackson to promote Luke.
We had a serviceable 5 for many years with OXtule, now Luke could be taking that position to the next level.
So you just proved that Luke, in his first game as Warrior, had a game that was statistically better than any game Otule had in six years in the uniform?
That is why people are saying we haven't had a player like this before. No one is saying Otule was bad. No one is saying Gardner was bad. They are saying that Fischer had a helluva game. And if he continues to have performances even close to this level, he will be the best center we have had in awhile.
-
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
Yes Luke could very well be better than OXtule (together or seperate) but let's not pretend we have been missing decent play at the 5 for many years.
* Gardner was one of the best scoring big men in the BE
* Three years ago (second S16 season) Otule played so well in the second half of the year he almost single-handily carried us into the second week of the tourney. At that time many here were wondering where Otule would be drafted.
Just trying to stop the revisionist history/collective amnesia
Try he didn't even play in the second half of the year...lol
-
So you just proved that Luke, in his first game as Warrior, had a game that was statistically better than any game Otule had in six years in the uniform?
That is why people are saying we haven't had a player like this before. No one is saying Otule was bad. No one is saying Gardner was bad. They are saying that Fischer had a helluva game. And if he continues to have performances even close to this level, he will be the best center we have had in awhile.
Ditto.
-
Otule
Nov 20, 2010, 15 points, 8 rebs agaisnt South Dakota (and Jake Thomas)
Nov 27, 2010, 19 points, 5 rebs against Longwood
Feb 27, 2011, 16 points, 6 rebs, 4 blks against Providence
March 3, 2013, 16 points, 4 rebs against #21 ND
redshirt 2011/2012
March 21, 2013, 11 points and 11 rebs against Davidson
Nov 21, 2013, 16 points, 7 rebs against NH
Nov 12, 2103 17 points and 6 against Grambling
Dec 7, 2013 11 points and 9 rebs against #8 Wisconsin
Also in 2010/2011 - Otule's 55 blocks was the most by an MU player in a single-season since Faisal Abraham (84) in 1996-97.
Yes Luke had 19 points, 9 rebs and 5 blks, which is better than all of Otule's game, but only marginally so. So Otule came very close to that performance many times, you just elected to not remember them as a way to further hype Luke.
But if you think that Luke's stat line against ASU will be a typical game the rest of the way, then I will tell you he's going to a lottery pick next summer and well never know how he would have played with Ellenson.
So, let's stop pretending we have been undersized at the 5 since Robert Jackson to promote Luke.
We had a serviceable 5 for many years with OXtule, now Luke could be taking that position to the next level.
While, ASU is no world beater...they are sure as sh it better than South Dakota, Longwood, that particular Providence team, NH and Grambling(lol on this one).
And you still completely missed the point of their posts.
I'll break it down. Luke has size and hands. Ox had hands he didn't have center size.
Luke is aircraft carrier center. Otule could once in a blue moon(usually against a garbage team) score double figures and get more than 5 rebounds in a game. We havn't had a player with Luke's capability and talent to do it regularly in a long time.
Hopefully you are now up to speed on the logic of the rest of the board.
-
Yes, this will not help Derrick as much as some others. He is going to have to move the ball quickly.
This is not now and has never been a strength of his. Hopefully, Wojo and the other ex-PG coaches will coach him up on rapid ball movement. But if the post is doubled, it's obviously going to be Derrick's defender in many (or most) instances. That does not bode well for the MU offense.
-
This is not now and has never been a strength of his. Hopefully, Wojo and the other ex-PG coaches will coach him up on rapid ball movement. But if the post is doubled, it's obviously going to be Derrick's defender in many (or most) instances. That does not bode well for the MU offense.
But on the good side of the ledger, we saw more Carlino, Duane, and JJJ together on the floor against ASU than we have previously. Derek will be in there whenever one of those three are not in the game, but as long as those three work hard on the defensive end, I think they will each get 30 min a game.
-
But on the good side of the ledger, we saw more Carlino, Duane, and JJJ together on the floor against ASU than we have previously. Derek will be in there whenever one of those three are not in the game, but as long as those three work hard on the defensive end, I think they will each get 30 min a game.
Agreed and I think that's what most here hoped for, that those other three would enable more offense-defense substitution patterns.
-
While, ASU is no world beater...they are sure as sh it better than South Dakota, Longwood, that particular Providence team, NH and Grambling(lol on this one).
And you still completely missed the point of their posts.
I'll break it down. Luke has size and hands. Ox had hands he didn't have center size.
Luke is aircraft carrier center. Otule could once in a blue moon(usually against a garbage team) score double figures and get more than 5 rebounds in a game. We havn't had a player with Luke's capability and talent to do it regularly in a long time.
Hopefully you are now up to speed on the logic of the rest of the board.
Actually you miss the point of my posts. I'm agreeing with everyone that Luke is the best post player we have seen since Jackson, or maybe Jim Mac (time will tell). But the wording of these comments are a shot at OXtule implying they were not any good.
That performance on Tuesday was the one I waited 6 years for Otule to have. Never happened. Not Once.
"waited 6 years" ... "Never happened" ... "Not Once"
To say the same thing three times in 15 words is to say you thought Otule stunk. He was a serviceable "5" for many years. Again, you don't have to praise Luke by bashing Otule.
Luke's the first guy with that size and decent hands we've had in a while
He's not "the first guy" Gardner had decent hands and was big. He just has the ability to be better, much better.
I think Luke is a true Aircraft Carrier type center, which we haven't had in a long time.
I realize their is no accepted definition of "aircraft carrier" as it changes from post to post. I thought it meant a big guy that played. Otule was actually bigger than Luke.
Don't go off on some mind-numbing post on how good Luke is. Because whatever you write I agree with. Instead stop praising Luke by bashing OXtule ... they were not that bad.
-
Heisenberg-
Please show us the posts where people explicitly called Davante or Otule bad.
Not mentioning Gardner as an "aircraft carrier" because he's a short 5 isn't revisionist history. Nor is omitting Chris because his offensive skill set was limited.
We had a serviceable 5 for many years with OXtule, now Luke could be taking that position to the next level.
This is without a doubt the most accurate thing you've said.
I'm pushing back at the revisionist history that says OXtule were crap and did nothing. That is what is being suggested.
...and this is you taking enormous liberties with what wasn't said.
-
Heisenberg-
Please show us the posts where people explicitly called Davante or Otule bad.
Not mentioning Gardner as an "aircraft carrier" because he's a short 5 isn't revisionist history. Nor is omitting Chris because his offensive skill set was limited.
This is without a doubt the most accurate thing you've said.
...and this is you taking enormous liberties with what wasn't said.
So, you don't understand intent in speech. The intent, and maybe it was unintentional, was to pump up Luke by knocking down OXtule.
I realized you staked out a position so you elect to not see the following as a slap at Otule
That performance on Tuesday was the one I waited 6 years for Otule to have. Never happened. Not Once.
Explicit, no ... but everyone knows what was meant here. You're just being argumentative.
BTW, "serviceable" was good enough for S16, S16 and E8. So "serviceable" does not mean bad. You can win with "serviceable"
-
Hberg,
You are the only one who is interpreting the intent of these posts as oxtule bashing. Its completely valid for you to interpret it that way, and I'm sorry if any of the things I said came off as oxtule bashing, but from my perspective everything said has been positive.
The size and decent hands comment is not a dig at Gardner. He was 6"8. That is a significant difference from Luke's 6"11.
The waiting 6 years performance is true! You yourself posted Otule's highlights and Luke's was better than every one of Otule's. Not a dig at Otule, just a fact.
The aircraft carrier comment is ambiguous because there is no definition of an "aircraft carrier" player. But what I think was intended is a player with typical center size who is solid on both sides of the ball. Again, this is a true statement.
-
So, you don't understand intent in speech. The intent, and maybe it was unintentional, was to pump up Luke by knocking down OXtule.
I realized you staked out a position so you elect to not see the following as a slap at Otule
That performance on Tuesday was the one I waited 6 years for Otule to have. Never happened. Not Once.
Explicit, no ... but everyone knows what was meant here. You're just being argumentative.
BTW, "serviceable" was good enough for S16, S16 and E8. So "serviceable" does not mean bad. You can win with "serviceable"
Sigh. I really shouldn't take the bait.
I will simply say this. By its definition and by the very structure of the words, intent cannot be unintentional. (Go look up what a "prefix" does.) I think you are confusing intend with imply. Speaking for myself, it was never my intent to imply those guys were bad, though I think that is a matter of interpretation. Heck, you even needed to qualify your use of "serviceable" knowing it could be interpreted as anything from "good" to a body just filling space.
As to the argumentative remark... Well, that one's just plain funny.
-
So, you don't understand intent in speech. The intent, and maybe it was unintentional, was to pump up Luke by knocking down OXtule.
Part of what made Luke's debut so impressive compared to OXtule is that you had to use two guys to compare him too.
Luke brought impressive play at both ends of the floor in one body - with OXtule - who rarely played together - it was one end of the floor or the other.
On the offensive end, where Davante was a very good player, Luke showed a much more versatile game. And on the defensive end, Luke played better in his 1st game than OX ever did in his decades of play for us.