MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on November 03, 2014, 04:20:09 PM
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Not yet enough bribes, graft and corruption for this project to move forward.
DePaul arena construction contract: What's the delay?
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141103/BLOGS04/141109997/depaul-arena-construction-contract-whats-the-delay
early two months after the Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority (McPier) intended to award a construction contract for a 10,000-seat, $173 million arena on the Near South Side, a winner is yet to be named.
While McPier, the city-state agency that oversees McCormick Place and Navy Pier, still wants to put shovels in the ground early next year, a dozen construction bidders are patiently awaiting a vote from the agency's board to get the ball rolling on what is expected to be a 22-month project.
In May, McPier CEO Jim Reilly said the group was on track to award the contract at its September board meeting, but the meeting was canceled due to a scheduling conflict, according to a McPier spokeswoman.
The board didn't take action on the contract at its Oct. 30 meeting, further postponing the start of a project the city has touted as a catalyst for revitalizing the Motor Row district.
Mr. Reilly declined to comment on the delay, saying he can't legally discuss an open RFP. But McPier is working to finalize the agreement, he said.
"It's a big deal and we need to make sure we get it right," he said after last week's monthly McPier board meeting, adding that he aims to come to the Nov. 25 board meeting with a contract recommendation. "It's enough money (involved) that we thought we could go faster, but it's taken a little while longer."
COST CONCERNS?
City officials have praised the funding plan for the arena, currently called the McCormick Place Event Center, as a model public-private partnership, with McPier and DePaul contributing $70 million each for construction. McPier also paid $40 million to acquire property for the project from Oak Brook-based CenterPoint Properties Trust.
But a source familiar with the project said the "dug-in" building design by New Haven, Connecticut-based Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects, which places the arena floor below ground level, may be more expensive than originally thought and could be causing the contract delay.
The $7.2 million design contract went to Pelli Clarke Pelli last fall thanks in part to its plan to sink its basketball court below ground, appeasing concerns from 3rd Ward residents that the building not be too obtrusive. The design also will feature glass exterior walls, an undulating roof and space for retail tenants such as restaurants and coffeehouses.
Asked whether the project will move forward at its projected cost and with the below-ground court design it selected in September 2013, Mr. Reilly said its final price "is what we have to negotiate" and that he "would not anticipate any dramatic changes."
Multiple construction bidders did not respond to requests for comment on the status of the contract, though one said bidders were told to expect an answer by September or October.
A spokesman for Ald. Pat Dowell (3rd) declined to comment on the design and timetable.
DEPAUL: STILL ON TRACK
At a preseason luncheon for its men's and women's basketball programs in last month, DePaul Athletic Director Jean Lenti Ponsetto said the arena remains on track to open for the school's 2016-17 season, but that the school may have to be flexible if that is pushed back.
DePaul wants to sell naming rights to the building and pay McPier rent of $25,000 per game.
Ms. Ponsetto noted that much of the preparation work of the site is well under way.
McPier last month moved the two-story coach building of the historic Harriet F. Rees house that sits on the arena lot to a site one block away, and plans to move the three-story house itself next week.
TRYING TO BOOK 'EM
In the meantime, the McPier board has turned its attention to how it will market the arena to small trade shows, concert promoters and sporting event organizers to meet the ambitious attendance goals it laid out for the building to break even on its operating costs.
The board approved a $40,000 one-time fee for city tourism arm Choose Chicago to develop a logo and branding strategy for the entire expansion of the McCormick Place campus, which includes both the arena and a new 1,200-room Marriott hotel across the street.
McPier has projected that DePaul men's basketball games in the new venue will roughly triple in attendance compared to the crowds they've seen at Allstate Arena in suburban Rosemont in recent years.
The agency also estimates it can lure 20 to 25 convention-related events to the arena, citing interest it has received from shows for hardware merchants, dentists and the solar-power industry.
"The marketing and sales here is going to be more complicated," Mr. Reilly told board members last week. "On one hand there will still be a need to market the overall (McCormick Place) campus as part of the national shows market, but also with the event center and (Marriott) hotel added to the Hyatt — we'll now be in a market we've never been able to be in before," he said, citing shows that may want to use the arena and have all attendees stay at the roughly 2,500 rooms that will comprise the Hyatt and Marriott hotels combined.
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Still blows my mind this project has moved along as much as it has. A new arena...for DePaul????
A bizarre use of public funds...especially with the UC sitting right there.
But hey, when you can spend about $150 million taxpayer dollars on a new arena for a doormat college team, ya just gotta do it.
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Still blows my mind this project has moved along as much as it has. A new arena...for DePaul????
A bizarre use of public funds...especially with the UC sitting right there.
But hey, when you can spend about $150 million taxpayer dollars on a new arena for a doormat college team, ya just gotta do it.
Construction/contractors are among the biggest donors to city politicians. Some cement contractor probably dropped a boatload of money on Rahm or another politician and wants a "job."
It has nothing to do with Depaul's win/loss record. Frankly they don't care. The cement trucks are gassed up and they want to start pouring concrete ASAP so they can over-charge the city. What they are bogged down with is who gets to steal taxpayer money and how much. The bribes are pouring into the McPier people that will award this contract and the McPier people want to keep the process going a little while longer so they are milk a few more dollars out out of the bidders.
Welcome to Chicago.
(PS Why do you think Wrigley renovation has been such a struggle. Ricketts wanted to do the project himself and refused to bribe politicians and allow "preferred contractors" that were "suggested" by politicians the ability to rob him blind. He also refused to allow Tom Tunney to bribe him just because Tunney was bought and paid for by the rooftop owners.
Ricketts bet his project has a high enough profile that he could circumvent to normal process of doing things in Chicago. He was right, eventually Rahm caved and pushed enough people to allow the project to happen. It just took two to three more years than he planned.
Welcome to Chicago - Part 2)
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Not yet enough bribes, graft and corruption for this project to move forward.
Hey now... let's be fair. The recession was tough on everyone. Give the grafters and bribers a chance to get back on their feet... you think it's easy to spend boatloads of money on a beach in the Caribbean while millions of people were losing their jobs stateside? That's a lot harder and more exhausting than you think.
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The arena isn't about DePaul. It is all about the casino they plan to build. The need an arena to attract entertainment options alongside the gambling.
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The arena isn't about DePaul. It is all about the casino they plan to build. The need an arena to attract entertainment options alongside the gambling.
Bingo. It's all about the casino.
DePaul just took advantage of the opportunity.
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It's not about a casino, there is no casino in the works, just endless talk about it.
It's going to be part of the McCormick center complex to attract large conventions.
Shall we count the number of contractors and political donors that have gone to prison that were involved in the building of McCormick Center (and it additions)?
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The $7.2 million design contract went to Pelli Clarke Pelli last fall thanks in part to its plan to sink its basketball court below ground, appeasing concerns from 3rd Ward residents that the building not be too obtrusive.
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McPier has projected that DePaul men's basketball games in the new venue will roughly triple in attendance compared to the crowds they've seen at Allstate Arena in suburban Rosemont in recent years.
I love the irony of not wanting an arena that's too intrusive...in the "birthplace of the skyscraper."
And the pipe dream of tripling attendance is a joke. People will come to see you play...if you win. Ask Seton Hall, which plays in an NHL (and former NBA) arena...and which has to close off the upper deck for its games.
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It's Chicago, it's Chicago.
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It's not about a casino, there is no casino in the works, just endless talk about it.
It's going to be part of the McCormick center complex to attract large conventions.
Shall we count the number of contractors and political donors that have gone to prison that were involved in the building of McCormick Center (and it additions)?
You're wrong. It's about the casino.
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You're wrong. It's about the casino.
Ok, what Casino? Where is it going to be located?
DePaul wants to open in the new Arena in 2016. For this to happen, McPier needs to award the new Arena constriction contract NOW! So unless this casino gets announced Friday, Depaul is going to have to wait years beyond 2016 if the hold-up is a Casino deal.
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Ok, what Casino? Where is it going to be located?
DePaul wants to open in the new Arena in 2016. For this to happen, McPier needs to award the new Arena constriction contract NOW! So unless this casino gets announced Friday, Depaul is going to have to wait years beyond 2016 if the hold-up is a Casino deal.
Well, tonight's a big night. Pat Quinn is the biggest reason why a casino in Chicago has yet to happen. He is against it and he controls appointments to the IL gaming board. If Quinn loses to Rauner tonight, all this could change. Remember, Rauner is tight with Rahm, they go back a long way. And, Rahm wants a Chicago casino.
As PRN states, the event center is needed as part of the casino complex. Rahm moved ahead with that piece, knowing that in the future, casino clearance will at some point come. And when it does, it be will be part of new McCormick center complex.
BTW, the jockeying for the potential casino has been going on for a long time. Before Rahm, Daley was hot on this as well. You may recall the deal he tried to cut with the Chicago Children's Museum to build a new facility in Grant Park. That was done to try to clear out space at Navy Pier for a potential casino.
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I'm not saying a casino will not happen. But even if Rauner wins in the next three hours, he does not take office until January and then has to appoint and get approved his gaming commissioners. Only then can they begin the process of changing the rules. That will take months, if not a year.
So, yes the Casino can happen (side note, it will disappoint as we are oversaturated with Casinos). But the story said this ...
In May, McPier CEO Jim Reilly said the group was on track to award the contract at its September board meeting, but the meeting was canceled due to a scheduling conflict, according to a McPier spokeswoman.
The board didn't take action on the contract at its Oct. 30 meeting, further postponing the start of a project the city has touted as a catalyst for revitalizing the Motor Row district.
Mr. Reilly declined to comment on the delay, saying he can't legally discuss an open RFP. But McPier is working to finalize the agreement, he said.
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At a preseason luncheon for its men's and women's basketball programs in last month, DePaul Athletic Director Jean Lenti Ponsetto said the arena remains on track to open for the school's 2016-17 season, but that the school may have to be flexible if that is pushed back.
They have to get approval now so they can prep to break ground once the spring thaw hits. So I don't see the Casino holding it up. Build the stadium now and hold a parcel of land next to it for the Casino.
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So they are already predicting that the cost will go 75% over the original budget:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141118/BLOGS04/141119802/cost-soaring-for-proposed-depaul-arena?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I TELL YOU!
How could something like this happen in Chicago?
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Meanwhile, the UC is sitting there and ready to accept a rent-free tenant.
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So they are already predicting that the cost will go 75% over the original budget:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141118/BLOGS04/141119802/cost-soaring-for-proposed-depaul-arena?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I TELL YOU!
How could something like this happen in Chicago?
Who'd have guessed? But I'm sure Chicago will find a fair, honorable way to sort this out....
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So they are already predicting that the cost will go 75% over the original budget:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141118/BLOGS04/141119802/cost-soaring-for-proposed-depaul-arena?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I TELL YOU!
How could something like this happen in Chicago?
Chicago.....definitely not limited to Chicago. I wish I could be wrong by the breadth that gubmit accountant and finance people are. I get about 0.5% in my forecasting swag before my head is torn off.
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Chicago.....definitely not limited to Chicago. I wish I could be wrong by the breadth that gubmit accountant and finance people are. I get about 0.5% in my forecasting swag before my head is torn off.
But Chicago has turned it into an art form. Right now I work across the street from Millennium Park. Original estimate to build: $150 million. Final cost: $475 million. Oh, and it opened 4 years behind schedule.
It's nice and all, but I doubt anyone outside the former Daley administration looks at it and says, "Oh, yeah; totally worth a half-billion dollars."
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Corruption and all I still love my city. It's not a Chicago project without some poor financial planning. Couldn't imagine living anywhere else.
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But Chicago has turned it into an art form. Right now I work across the street from Millennium Park. Original estimate to build: $150 million. Final cost: $475 million. Oh, and it opened 4 years behind schedule.
It's nice and all, but I doubt anyone outside the former Daley administration looks at it and says, "Oh, yeah; totally worth a half-billion dollars."
For a park? Grass and stuff?
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For a park? Grass and stuff?
Well, it includes The Bean, and those fountains that look like people spitting, but still...
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But Chicago has turned it into an art form. Right now I work across the street from Millennium Park. Original estimate to build: $150 million. Final cost: $475 million. Oh, and it opened 4 years behind schedule.
It's nice and all, but I doubt anyone outside the former Daley administration looks at it and says, "Oh, yeah; totally worth a half-billion dollars."
No argument from me, though it seems many areas have perfected the nonsense. Our choo choo train out here was only off by about by $61 billion and 13 years in estimated completion. It's pretty hard to be off by a factor of double, but our state did it.
Choo choo....chuga chuga chuga....choo choo.....progress...moving forward....chooo choooooo
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Well, it includes The Bean, and those fountains that look like people spitting, but still...
$100 million for he grass, bean and fountains...and $375 million for the mayor's "friends." Seems reasonable to me.
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$100 million for he grass, bean and fountains...and $375 million for the mayor's "friends." Seems reasonable to me.
Not sure why you put that in teal.
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$100 million for he grass, bean and fountains...and $375 million for the mayor's "friends." Seems reasonable to me.
I don't know the particulars, but it also involved cleaning out an old train location and reinforcing underground parking. It was a massive undertaking and, despite the costs, I'm guess it's one of...if not THE...most visited places in Chicago. Obviously, it was too expensive. It's also borderline stunning.
I did always find it funny that "Millenium Park" didn't open until like 2004.
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I don't know the particulars, but it also involved cleaning out an old train location and reinforcing underground parking. It was a massive undertaking and, despite the costs, I'm guess it's one of...if not THE...most visited places in Chicago. Obviously, it was too expensive. It's also borderline stunning.
I did always find it funny that "Millenium Park" didn't open until like 2004.
It cost more than TRIPLE the original budget.
If this had been a private project, everyone involved would have been fired. Instead. the cost just gets passed onto the taxpayers like it's no big deal, and the idiotic voters keep reelecting these fools and criminals.
Just one of the many reasons why I live in the 'burbs.
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Hey it's only money!
McPier greenlights tweaked — and pricier — DePaul arena design
November 25, 2014
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141125/BLOGS04/141129905/mcpier-greenlights-tweaked-and-pricier-depaul-arena-design
A new 10,000-seat arena next to McCormick Place will be built for more than its projected cost.
The Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority today approved a proposal from a venture led by Clark Construction Group to build the new McCormick Place Event Center for $164 million, or about 17 percent more than it expected to spend when the city-state agency that operates the convention center announced the project in May 2013.
In addition, the base floor of the building will be at ground level as opposed to the previous design, which had placed that floor 22-feet below ground. The roof of the building will be four feet lower than its original height, however, as a result of lower roof trusses.
The extra expense comes from a combination of higher than anticipated labor costs and an "underestimation" of the project's cost, said McPier CEO Jim Reilly.
When asked about the price, Reilly said, "This is a good price, and we're comfortable with it." He added that McPier will cover the extra cost of the arena using reserves from previously sold bonds.
McPier officials unveiled renderings of the new design, which retains much of the glass exterior as originally planned, at today's monthly board meeting.
Reilly said he expects the extra cost to be split between McPier and DePaul, which had originally promised $70 million toward the building. "It will have to be a 50-50 partnership and I'm confident that it will be," he said. "If it's not a 50-50 partnership, (the project) won't happen. But I'm reasonably confident it will happen."
DePaul could not immediately be reached for comment.
The board also approved a construction contract for Clark to build a new 1,200 room Marriott hotel just east of the arena for just under $291 million as expected, but it reduced the size of the building from 51 stories to 40 stories.
As a result of the delay in awarding the construction contract, McPier officials estimate that they won't break ground until May or June of 2015. The project is expected to take two years to complete and therefore won't be completed until mid-2017. The original plan was to complete the project in time for DePaul's 2016-17 season.
ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT
The arena and hotel are part of a larger effort by the city and McPier to create an entertainment district around McCormick Place and revitalize the Near South Side.
A rendering of the hotel portion of the project - Image via McPier
A rendering of the hotel portion of the project
Image via McPier
The winning bid, led by Clark Construction of Bethesda, Maryland, which built the McPier-owned Hyatt McCormick Place hotel as well as the convention center's west and south buildings, was selected over one from a venture led by Chicago-based Walsh Construction that included two Chicago-based architectural firms, A. Epstein & Sons International and VOA Architects.
But the board's approval came two months after it had intended to award the design-build contract because of a struggle to get the design to meet the projected price tag.
The biggest factor in the heftier price tag: The cost of the subterranean design the authority selected for the building would have been as much as 75 percent higher than the $140 million McPier projected in May 2013, according to sources close to the bidding process. That forced McPier to seek alternative options, including tweaking the design or finding another source of financing.
While the dug-in nature of the arena design has driven up the cost, neighborhood groups have vehemently opposed one that is wholly above ground for fear that it would be too obtrusive and not fit the character of the area.
FINANCING ISSUES
DePaul University last year committed $70 million toward construction of the arena, where it will be a tenant paying $25,000-per-game rent for men's basketball games and $15,000 for women's games.
The other half of the $140 million projected arena construction bill was to be footed by McPier, which would pay using proceeds of earlier bond sales that it is holding in reserve. The bonds are being retired using the authority's revenue from hotel taxes, among other sources.
The project has drawn ire both from those skeptical of the demand for a new arena and from critics who are concerned about debt-laden McPier taking on a new financial burden.
McPier posted an operating loss of $91.4 million last year. And while that was 21 percent less than it lost in 2012, it still faces an uphill climb to meet its towering debt obligations. Its assets trail its liabilities by $1.1 billion, which threatens to eventually handcuff the convention authority when it comes to borrowing money to fund new projects.
The authority projects that the arena will break even on its operating expenses during its first year and will turn a profit after that. It expects an assortment of convention-related events, concerts, shows and amateur sporting events to fill its seats aside from DePaul basketball games, which would have to more than triple their current attendance to meet McPier's projections.
(http://www.chicagobusiness.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/CG/20141125/BLOGS04/141129905/AR/0/AR-141129905.jpg&maxw=400&q=100&cb=20141125111524&cci_ts=20141125111439)
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DePaul University last year committed $70 million toward construction of the arena, where it will be a tenant paying $25,000-per-game rent for men's basketball games and $15,000 for women's games.
Wow.
Pay for half of the stadium AND pay rent? Especially when they could have played in the United Center for free?
What brilliant DePaul Business Econ prof ran the numbers on that deal?
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Wow.
Pay for half of the stadium AND pay rent? Especially when they could have played in the United Center for free?
What brilliant DePaul Business Econ prof ran the numbers on that deal?
And this new arena is further from campus than the UC, correct?
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Slightly farther distance-wise, but a shorter, more convenient ride on the El.
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It's 100% about the casino.
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It's 100% about the casino.
Exactly. They want a playground that can somewhat compete with Vegas and New Orleans
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Exactly. They want a playground that can somewhat compete with Vegas and New Orleans
But why does DePaul feel it needs to be a part of this? It appears to be a very bad deal for them
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Exactly. They want a playground that can somewhat compete with Vegas and New Orleans
I hear what you're saying but the Chicago area is so oversaturated with casinos that this will not be as successful as they think.
Further, if they really want a playground to compete with Vegas and New Orleans, that does not mean fifty cent slots and busloads of welfare and social security recipients to blow their government assistance. That means high-end hotel rooms ($500+/night), high-end entrainment ($200 to $500 a ticket) and $100 to $5,000 tables. Are they planning on a sports book? Will I be able to make a $5k to $100k on the Superbowl?
The answer to all of this is no. They are planning a crappy low-end dump, made with lots of cement (to pay off the contractors that support Rahm's re-election) with an endless number of slots. Such a casino will be populated with the saddest people in the area and somewhere people that think of Vegas and New Orleans their playground would not be caught dead.
Finally, as Warriorchick said, what any of this has to do with Depaul is beyond me. Let the blue demons cut a deal with the United Center and if Rahm wants a useless building to pay-off cement contractors and steal welfare checks though rigged slots (see Chicago's rigged red-light cameras), Depaul does not need to be involved with it.
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It's Chicago, It's Chicago.
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I hear what you're saying but the Chicago area is so oversaturated with casinos that this will not be as successful as they think.
Further, if they really want a playground to compete with Vegas and New Orleans, that does not mean fifty cent slots and busloads of welfare and social security recipients to blow their government assistance. That means high-end hotel rooms ($500+/night), high-end entrainment ($200 to $500 a ticket) and $100 to $5,000 tables. Are they planning on a sports book? Will I be able to make a $5k to $100k on the Superbowl?
The answer to all of this is no. They are planning a crappy low-end dump, made with lots of cement (to pay off the contractors that support Rahm's re-election) with an endless number of slots. Such a casino will be populated with the saddest people in the area and somewhere people that think of Vegas and New Orleans their playground would not be caught dead.
Finally, as Warriorchick said, what any of this has to do with Depaul is beyond me. Let the blue demons cut a deal with the United Center and if Rahm wants a useless building to pay-off cement contractors and steal welfare checks though rigged slots (see Chicago's rigged red-light cameras), Depaul does not need to be involved with it.
You're very correct on all counts.
But for whatever reason, Chicago will fight to the death for every convention dollar imaginable
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You're very correct on all counts.
But for whatever reason, Chicago will fight to the death for every convention dollar imaginable
If they want convention dollars, they can ditch the useless overpaid union contracts that run McCormick that make it too expensive.
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If they want convention dollars, they can ditch the useless overpaid union contracts that run McCormick that make it too expensive.
That wouldn't be the Chicago way
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That wouldn't be the Chicago way
Besides, they pass a lot of that on directly to the convention attendees (i.e., in your display booth, you are not allowed to plug in your own electrical cords into the outlets; you have to hire an expensive union electrician to do it), so in their minds, it's not a cost to the city. Then the PTB are mystified as to why no one holds conventions in Chicago any more.
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Still the greatest city in the world. Have to go to the DMV today to get my license renewed though. May have a different opinion after that experience.
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Besides, they pass a lot of that on directly to the convention attendees (i.e., in your display booth, you are not allowed to plug in your own electrical cords into the outlets; you have to hire an expensive union electrician to do it), so in their minds, it's not a cost to the city. Then the PTB are mystified as to why no one holds conventions in Chicago any more.
... and they think the answer is to spend another zillion dollars putting up a bunch of buildings not needed and will be late, massively over-budget and uninspiring. But, it will employee of bunch of overpaid union thugs that will offset their loss of conventions.
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Still the greatest city in the world. Have to go to the DMV today to get my license renewed though. May have a different opinion after that experience.
That's state, not city, but fortunately for you, Jesse White is probably the least incompetent of all high-ranking state officials.
Curious, though. Since you believe that Chicago is the greatest city in the world, what other cities have you lived in long enough to compare, besides Milwaukee? And what criteria are you using?
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That's state, not city, but fortunately for you, Jesse White is probably the least incompetent of all high-ranking state officials.
Curious, though. Since you believe that Chicago is the greatest city in the world, what other cities have you lived in long enough to compare, besides Milwaukee? And what criteria are you using?
Right? Everybody knows the greatest city in the world is Naperville... as evidenced by 98% of their population who hasn't ventured outside the city limits anytime in the past ten years.
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That's state, not city, but fortunately for you, Jesse White is probably the least incompetent of all high-ranking state officials.
Curious, though. Since you believe that Chicago is the greatest city in the world, what other cities have you lived in long enough to compare, besides Milwaukee? And what criteria are you using?
Tampa is the only one I can say I've spent enough time in. Bogota as well in colombia. If all fairness though Bogota is great.
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Tampa is the only one I can say I've spent enough time in. Bogota as well in colombia. If all fairness though Bogota is great.
If someone offered me a job in Tampa, I'd have my bags packed before the sentence was all the way out of his mouth.
I'd live in Clearwater, though.
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If someone offered me a job in Tampa, I'd have my bags packed before the sentence was all the way out of his mouth.
I'd live in Clearwater, though.
All this statement says is you have not been to Tampa.
Detroit with nicer weather.
Clearwater = Birmingham Hills
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All this statement says is you have not been to Tampa.
Detroit with nicer weather.
Clearwater = Birmingham Hills
That's a bit of stretch.
No state income tax. Short drive to many of the best vacation spots in the country.
Oh, and there's this, which I don't think anyone says about Detroit:
http://www.tampabay.org/about-us/news-media/partnership-blog/2013-10-17/tampa-bay-cities-make-list-%E2%80%9Ctop-100-best-places-live
And this:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/workinglife/report-deems-tampa-the-third-best-city-in-the-country-to-find-a-job/2168479
Even if what you said was true, it's still better weather FTW.
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If someone offered me a job in Tampa, I'd have my bags packed before the sentence was all the way out of his mouth.
I'd live in Clearwater, though.
Ditto. Tampa/St. Pete's is high on my family list. Although the wife and I pretty much decided we won't do anything for at least another 6 years until both kids finish school in Connecticut.
My company recently moved one product line to our sister company in Clearwater and they offered the one technician involved paid relocation and he wasn't interested. He's married with no kids and for some reason is a huge Florida State University sports fan but still said no.
You also get to see Winter the Dolphin at the Clearwater Marine Aquarium.
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... and they think the answer is to spend another zillion dollars putting up a bunch of buildings not needed and will be late, massively over-budget and uninspiring. But, it will employee of bunch of overpaid union thugs that will offset their loss of conventions.
Or we could start a conversation about overpaid corporate thugs.
Point being that it is a human condition - not a union condition. People everywhere - rich or poor - are almost always trying to look for an advantage.
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That's a bit of stretch.
No state income tax. Short drive to many of the best vacation spots in the country.
Oh, and there's this, which I don't think anyone says about Detroit:
http://www.tampabay.org/about-us/news-media/partnership-blog/2013-10-17/tampa-bay-cities-make-list-%E2%80%9Ctop-100-best-places-live
And this:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/workinglife/report-deems-tampa-the-third-best-city-in-the-country-to-find-a-job/2168479
Even if what you said was true, it's still better weather FTW.
So what percentage is the sales tax. I spend lots of time in Tenneessee (Knoxville area) and some places the sales tax is as much as 13%-15%.
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So what percentage is the sales tax. I spend lots of time in Tenneessee (Knoxville area) and some places the sales tax is as much as 13%-15%.
7%
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So what percentage is the sales tax. I spend lots of time in Tenneessee (Knoxville area) and some places the sales tax is as much as 13%-15%.
Not sure where you are getting the 13-15% figure from for Tennessee. The max is 9.75%.
Meanwhile, Chicago's is 9.25%, state income tax is another 5%, and property taxes are at least 3 to 4 times higher.
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Not sure where you are getting the 13-15% figure from for Tennessee. The max is 9.75%.
Meanwhile, Chicago's is 9.25%, state income tax is another 5%, and property taxes are at least 3 to 4 times higher.
Residential property taxes In Chicago are very reasonable. Often running less than 1% of market value, less than half of what you see in the Chicago suburbs are many other major cities. This is one reason why housing prices in Chicago are so high. In the Lincoln Park area around Depaul, $2 to $3 million for a decent house north of $4 million for a nice house (with a some in the $8 to $10 million range, and one at $25 million). Empty lots (and tear downs) run north of $1.5 million now.
So yes Chicago screws you with taxes all over the place. But not your property taxes.
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Residential property taxes In Chicago are very reasonable. Often running less than 1% of market value, less than half of what you see in the Chicago suburbs are many other major cities. This is one reason why housing prices in Chicago are so high. In the Lincoln Park area around Depaul, $2 to $3 million for a decent house north of $4 million for a nice house (with a some in the $8 to $10 million range, and one at $25 million). Empty lots (and tear downs) run north of $1.5 million now.
So yes Chicago screws you with taxes all over the place. But not your property taxes.
Hmmm.
I moved from Chicago to Charlotte. The house I own in Charlotte now cost $230K in 2011 and is probably worth around $265K today. The same house on the same size lot where we used to live in the Chicago neighborhood we used to live (Lakeview) would have cost $2 million easily. We pay about $2800 in property taxes. The same house on the same lot in Chicago, our property taxes would have been tens of thousands of dollars. (They were $8000 on our condo back in 2004.)
So yeah, I guess in relation to value, one could argue property taxes are lower in Chicago. But if the exact same house on the exact same lot would cost 10 times as much and taxes would be "only" 8 times as much, I don't think Chicago merits a thumbs-up for its "low" property taxes.
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Hmmm.
I moved from Chicago to Charlotte. The house I own in Charlotte now cost $230K in 2011 and is probably worth around $265K today. The same house on the same size lot where we used to live in the Chicago neighborhood we used to live (Lakeview) would have cost $2 million easily. We pay about $2800 in property taxes. The same house on the same lot in Chicago, our property taxes would have been tens of thousands of dollars. (They were $8000 on our condo back in 2004.)
So yeah, I guess in relation to value, one could argue property taxes are lower in Chicago. But if the exact same house on the exact same lot would cost 10 times as much and taxes would be "only" 8 times as much, I don't think Chicago merits a thumbs-up for its "low" property taxes.
Exactly.
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Hmmm.
I moved from Chicago to Charlotte. The house I own in Charlotte now cost $230K in 2011 and is probably worth around $265K today. The same house on the same size lot where we used to live in the Chicago neighborhood we used to live (Lakeview) would have cost $2 million easily. We pay about $2800 in property taxes. The same house on the same lot in Chicago, our property taxes would have been tens of thousands of dollars. (They were $8000 on our condo back in 2004.)
So yeah, I guess in relation to value, one could argue property taxes are lower in Chicago. But if the exact same house on the exact same lot would cost 10 times as much and taxes would be "only" 8 times as much, I don't think Chicago merits a thumbs-up for its "low" property taxes.
But relative is exactly how it should be measured.
Property taxes on a Lake or Dupage county $2 million dollar home will be twice a $2 million dollar home in Chicago. mcHenry is three times.
So if you're in the market for a $2 million dollar home, and property taxes matter then look at Chicago. ($40 to $45k in Dupage versus $25k in Chicago)
Without getting sidetracked, my larger point is Chicago taxes you to death on my fronts (sales tax, gas, entertainment taxes, parking taxes, etc) but property taxes is not one of those areas.
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But relative is exactly how it should be measured.
Property taxes on a Lake or Dupage county $2 million dollar home will be twice a $2 million dollar home in Chicago. mcHenry is three times.
So if you're in the market for a $2 million dollar home, and property taxes matter then look at Chicago. ($40 to $45k in Dupage versus $25k in Chicago)
Without getting sidetracked, my larger point is Chicago taxes you to death on my fronts (sales tax, gas, entertainment taxes, parking taxes, etc) but property taxes is not one of those areas.
If you have kids, the money you have to spend on private school tuition is likely to more than make up the difference.
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If you have kids, the money you have to spend on private school tuition is likely to more than make up the difference.
That is true, very true.
But Chicago has a magnet school program and some of those schools are excellent, Whitney Young, Northside Prep, Walter Payton and even Lincoln Park High are as good as any top notch suburban high school. Of course they are magnet schools and entry is not guaranteed.
The charter schools, which almost 20% of Chicago kids attend, are also very good. The catholic schools (st. Ignatius, Mother Aucauley, St. Rita, Gordon Tech) are also good.
Traditional Chicago Public Schools (CPS), about as bad as they come.
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That is true, very true.
But Chicago has a magnet school program and some of those schools are excellent, Whitney Young, Northside Prep, Walter Payton and even Lincoln Park High are as good as any top notch suburban high school. Of course they are magnet schools and entry is not guaranteed.
The charter schools, which almost 20% of Chicago kids attend, are also very good. The catholic schools (st. Ignatius, Mother Aucauley, St. Rita, Gordon Tech) are also good.
Traditional Chicago Public Schools (CPS), about as bad as they come.
My kids were part of Payton's second and third graduating classes. Each received a great education.
As for property taxes ... if we ever move back and are ready to buy a $2 million house, I will take your advice and definitely will look in the city vs. in Lake or DuPage counties! What is the Powerball prize this weekend?
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That is true, very true.
But Chicago has a magnet school program and some of those schools are excellent, Whitney Young, Northside Prep, Walter Payton and even Lincoln Park High are as good as any top notch suburban high school. Of course they are magnet schools and entry is not guaranteed.
The charter schools, which almost 20% of Chicago kids attend, are also very good. The catholic schools (st. Ignatius, Mother Aucauley, St. Rita, Gordon Tech) are also good.
Traditional Chicago Public Schools (CPS), about as bad as they come.
I dunno, CPS public high schools have made some strides. I'm a CPS product (granted I went to Northside) but a CPS product none the less. My parents were never a fan of charter schools and I was never going to go to a private high school.
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I dunno, CPS public high schools have made some strides. I'm a CPS product (granted I went to Northside) but a CPS product none the less. My parents were never a fan of charter schools and I was never going to go to a private high school.
I think it is all about whether parents are involved rather than the school itself.
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But relative is exactly how it should be measured.
Property taxes on a Lake or Dupage county $2 million dollar home will be twice a $2 million dollar home in Chicago. mcHenry is three times.
So if you're in the market for a $2 million dollar home, and property taxes matter then look at Chicago. ($40 to $45k in Dupage versus $25k in Chicago)
Without getting sidetracked, my larger point is Chicago taxes you to death on my fronts (sales tax, gas, entertainment taxes, parking taxes, etc) but property taxes is not one of those areas.
Are you talking $2M of market value or $2M of assessed value? That said, most people in Cook County probably have no clue how much their home is worth let alone whether it's fairly assessed.
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Are you talking $2M of market value or $2M of assessed value? That said, most people in Cook County probably have no clue how much their home is worth let alone whether it's fairly assessed.
Same as anywhere else.
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Not sure where you are getting the 13-15% figure from for Tennessee. The max is 9.75%.
Meanwhile, Chicago's is 9.25%, state income tax is another 5%, and property taxes are at least 3 to 4 times higher.
Income tax drops 1.75% on Jan 1, 2015 and will be 3.25%.
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So what percentage is the sales tax. I spend lots of time in Tenneessee (Knoxville area) and some places the sales tax is as much as 13%-15%.
Know a couple of people on the TN/VA border who deal with that - TN has no income tax, VA has much lower sales tax - it's rough for the states to push economic development there since everyone wants to work in TN but spend their money in VA.
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Income tax drops 1.75% on Jan 1, 2015 and will be 3.25%.
We will see if that really ends up happening. Let's hope Rauner keeps his promise.
Even so, 3.25%>0%
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Same as anywhere else.
True, but Cook County makes it especially hard. Most places in the US (including every IL county except Cook) assessed value is indexed as a flat percentage of market value, in our case 33.3%. I can't even tell you the formula for determining Cook County assessments off hand, and I deal with property assessments all over the country. Cook County by far has the most confusing assessment process I know of, residential or commercial... and it's no secret that if people don't understand their assessment, they might bitch and moan about the end result, but they rarely appeal it.
Nevertheless, most homes in the US are still overassessed (overvalued) even though fair values have mostly recovered from the recession, and incidentally, the more populous an area you live in, the more likely (and drastically) you are of being overassessed. So couple that with Cook County's process, and I'm not sure that "low" or "fair" are appropriate adjectives for property taxes on either a relative or absolute basis.
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True, but Cook County makes it especially hard. Most places in the US (including every IL county except Cook) assessed value is indexed as a flat percentage of market value, in our case 33.3%. I can't even tell you the formula for determining Cook County assessments off hand, and I deal with property assessments all over the country. Cook County by far has the most confusing assessment process I know of, residential or commercial... and it's no secret that if people don't understand their assessment, they might bitch and moan about the end result, but they rarely appeal it.
Nevertheless, most homes in the US are still overassessed (overvalued) even though fair values have mostly recovered from the recession, and incidentally, the more populous an area you live in, the more likely (and drastically) you are of being overassessed. So couple that with Cook County's process, and I'm not sure that "low" or "fair" are appropriate adjectives for property taxes on either a relative or absolute basis.
Cannot find the link but a few years back The Economist magazine did a story on cook county property taxes saying they are the most complicated and byzantine in the developed world.
I think that is by design so the politically connected can "legally engineer" themselves paying little to no taxes.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-08-04/news/9808040279_1_property-tax-property-taxes-penalties