MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 15, 2007, 10:10:09 AM
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"Still, though the letter promises a scholarship for one year, it can be revoked if a student is rejected by a school's admissions department. That opens the possibility that if a coach is able to sign a better player, the school can cut the first player loose and say it was for academic reasons. (Don't think that doesn't happen.)"
Sound familiar?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/11/13/national.letter/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/11/13/national.letter/index.html)
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"Still, though the letter promises a scholarship for one year, it can be revoked if a student is rejected by a school's admissions department. That opens the possibility that if a coach is able to sign a better player, the school can cut the first player loose and say it was for academic reasons. (Don't think that doesn't happen.)"
Sound familiar?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/11/13/national.letter/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/11/13/national.letter/index.html)
Good for you (seal clapping). You can successfully dig up a dead story.
We get it. Sunshine-blowers don't show up every day and point out an instance of everything being sunny. You don't need to point out a downer every single day to get your point across.
Besides, if all it had to do with is who is the better player do you think Crean would have cut Saunders to keep Hazel? Think about it.
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No, it doesn't sound familiar.
Remind me of all the times in recent years MU's admissions department rejected one player in order to make room for a better recruit.
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The real issue I have is that next year we are doing exactly what we did this year... signing more people than there are schollies available (I believe we get 3, but we will sign 4). I don't like this practice as, at the very least, creates rumors about the one who will not sign if James doesn't go pro.
Yes, I understand James might graduate so this is a non-issue, as he probably will be gone either way. I just don't like the practice. Any number of things could happen that would allow for only 3 scholarships available next year.
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Not to mention Saunders got charged with DRUG POSSESSION! Not really the kind of guy I want on my team.
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Not to mention Saunders got charged with DRUG POSSESSION! Not really the kind of guy I want on my team.
Because nobody you ever knew got busted for pot possession? From what I have heard, it was not even his, just in the car he was riding in. On the long list of offenses, possessing marijuana is one in which I am willing to cut a guy some slack and give him a second chance. I think sometimes, people forget where a lot of these kids are coming from. They certainly should know better, but oftentimes do not. Would you be as upset if he got busted for underage drinking?
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Hard to believe he'll maintain this pace, but through two games Saunders is averaging 15.5 points and 6.5 rebounds a game.
Ouch.
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Not to mention Saunders got charged with DRUG POSSESSION! Not really the kind of guy I want on my team.
Because nobody you ever knew got busted for pot possession? From what I have heard, it was not even his, just in the car he was riding in. On the long list of offenses, possessing marijuana is one in which I am willing to cut a guy some slack and give him a second chance. I think sometimes, people forget where a lot of these kids are coming from. They certainly should know better, but oftentimes do not. Would you be as upset if he got busted for underage drinking?
I'm inclined to agree with you... but its a risky situation for a coach. If MU did take Saunders on the team and if he had ANY sort of infraction (academic, transfer, behavior, etc.) there would be people here pounding Crean for "not knowing better" and not cutting ties with Saunders right away.
Each kid is his own situation, but it's a tough spot for a coach because hindsight is a favorite for sports fans.
I don't know if there is a "right" or "wrong" answer here.
Given MU's track record, I'd say that is probably true that Saunders was struggling academically and thus wasn't taken on the team.
People may hate Crean and/or Fr. Wild, but in the area of academics and recruiting, he's never been known as "shady"... so I think we just have to take the program at its word.
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Hard to believe he'll maintain this pace, but through two games Saunders is averaging 15.5 points and 6.5 rebounds a game.
Ouch.
Which, of course, seems to run counter to your implication that he was run off the team in order to make room for a better recruit. If anything, not letting Saunders into MU appears to be an example of a kid not getting into school despite the likelihood he would help the team.
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Not to mention Saunders got charged with DRUG POSSESSION! Not really the kind of guy I want on my team.
Because nobody you ever knew got busted for pot possession? From what I have heard, it was not even his, just in the car he was riding in. On the long list of offenses, possessing marijuana is one in which I am willing to cut a guy some slack and give him a second chance. I think sometimes, people forget where a lot of these kids are coming from. They certainly should know better, but oftentimes do not. Would you be as upset if he got busted for underage drinking?
I smoked pot with Hutchins and Polonowski when I was a student. I never thought it was that big of a deal. Saunders may very well have been a victim of circumstance, but he wouldn't have been the first pot smoker in MU basketball history. We should have kept him.
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My implication was that he was run off the team because Crean overbooked scholarships and we used the academic issues as an excuse.
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My implication was that he was run off the team because Crean overbooked scholarships and we used the academic issues as an excuse.
Interesting theory, but it makes no sense.
If Crean was going to run someone off the team to open up a scholarship, wouldn't it be far more likely that he would run off Blackledge.
Trend, God bless him, has shown that he's not likely to contribute very much to this team and, as a senior, has no long-term future with the program. On top of that, he has an established history of classroom issues that would make such a claim (i.e. that he was dismissed for academic reasons) credible.
Or why not Patrick Hazel who - at least to this point - appears to have less upside than Saunders.
But instead he chooses to dump a promising freshman frontcourt player who could contribute not only this season, but for three more?
Sorry, but your theory simply doesn't hold any water.
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My implication was that he was run off the team because Crean overbooked scholarships and we used the academic issues as an excuse.
Interesting theory, but it makes no sense.
If Crean was going to run someone off the team to open up a scholarship, wouldn't it be far more likely that he would run off Blackledge.
Trend, God bless him, has shown that he's not likely to contribute very much to this team and, as a senior, has no long-term future with the program. On top of that, he has an established history of classroom issues that would make such a claim (i.e. that he was dismissed for academic reasons) credible.
Or why not Patrick Hazel who - at least to this point - appears to have less upside than Saunders.
But instead he chooses to dump a promising freshman frontcourt player who could contribute not only this season, but for three more?
Sorry, but your theory simply doesn't hold any water.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people on this board who believe their wives were virgins on their wedding night.
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It seems to me that there are a lot of people on this board who believe their wives were virgins on their wedding night.
The message board equivalent of "I'm taking my ball and going home."
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It seems to me that there are a lot of people on this board who believe their wives were virgins on their wedding night.
The message board equivalent of "I'm taking my ball and going home."
What? It's the message board equivalent of "believe what you want."
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Because nobody you ever knew got busted for pot possession? From what I have heard, it was not even his, just in the car he was riding in. On the long list of offenses, possessing marijuana is one in which I am willing to cut a guy some slack and give him a second chance. I think sometimes, people forget where a lot of these kids are coming from. They certainly should know better, but oftentimes do not. Would you be as upset if he got busted for underage drinking?
What I am saying is, if Crean did take Saunders over Hazel, PRN and the Creans haters would be right there saying Crean only took Saunders because he's a better athlete despite problems with the law.
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What? It's the message board equivalent of "believe what you want."
I see.
Then explain for me, who apparently doesn't get it, why - if it were Crean's intent to use academics as a phony reasoning for running off a player - he would chose a player who could help his team win games for the next four seasons.
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
Pakuni's point is that if you believe this to be true, why would Crean use this underhanded method to dump a player that can help this year as opposed to using this method to dump Hazel or Blackledge? Blackledge already had well documented academic issues, seems much easier to "disqualify" him than it would be Saunders. Plus based on your stats Saunders would have helped more than Trend.
Or are you saying that Crean is both devious and stupid?
Ever hear of Occum's Razor? Which is more likely, Saunders really didn't qualify or Crean colluded with several high placed MU official's and newspapers to have Saunders disqualify because James stuck around?
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
Pakuni's point is that if you believe this to be true, why would Crean use this underhanded method to dump a player that can help this year as opposed to using this method to dump Hazel or Blackledge? Blackledge already had well documented academic issues, seems much easier to "disqualify" him than it would be Saunders. Plus based on your stats Saunders would have helped more than Trend.
Or are you saying that Crean is both devious and stupid?
Ever hear of Occum's Razor? Which is more likely, Saunders really didn't qualify or Crean colluded with several high placed MU official's and newspapers to have Saunders disqualify because James stuck around?
I think it was the second shooter on the grassy knoll who planted the weed on him and hid his textbooks before tests.
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I don't disagree with PRN here. it was either going to be Blackledge or Saunders who did not meet "academic requirements" due to DJ being back. I believe Saunders arrest just made the decision earlier. Is it too bad? yes. but that is the price we pay for higher recruiting. most big-time programs will overbook to handle departures, whether they be transfers or draft defections. you don;t think saunders knew that this was a possibility? he committed to us knowing full well he was the one who put us over the top, so he was taking as much risk as we were. both sides knew the conditions when the committment was made...
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I know for a fact that Trend's scholarship was renewed prior to any decision being made on the Saunders or DJ issues, so that was a moot point.
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
Why did he pick Saunders?
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
Why did he pick Saunders?
And not Mbakwe for example. Mbakwe had serious clearninghouse issues. Saunders breezed through the clearninghouse. I would guess that Saunders filled out an application and was accepted to MU initially, i.e., he met the academic qualifications for MU.
The following is pure speculation: Perhaps it was a question of personality in the end. Hazel seems like a real hard worker who is glad to be here. He won't make problems off the court or in terms of the team. Saunders may not have hit it off with Crean. Perhaps TC sensed some ego issues or something about Saunders personality that wouldn't fit in the system.
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Obviously, you believe one thing and I believe another.
Are you denying that we overbooked scholarships thinking James was going pro? I don't think you are...at least I hope not.
If you acknowledge this, do you think Crean just got lucky when Saunders didn't qualify? Do you think he would have qualified had James been NBA-ready?
Why did he pick Saunders?
And not Mbakwe for example. Mbakwe had serious clearninghouse issues. Saunders breezed through the clearninghouse. I would guess that Saunders filled out an application and was accepted to MU initially, i.e., he met the academic qualifications for MU.
The following is pure speculation: Perhaps it was a question of personality in the end. Hazel seems like a real hard worker who is glad to be here. He won't make problems off the court or in terms of the team. Saunders may not have hit it off with Crean. Perhaps TC sensed some ego issues or something about Saunders personality that wouldn't fit in the system.
Honestly,
This administration and coach have never been accused or even considered to be "shady" in the area of academics or recruiting. So, while I'm not just "sticking my head in the sand", I am going to trust that MU knows what it is doing... and I don't think they are running off the least talented player like PRN implies in his first post.
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honestly, i don;t even think this is shady. we have a player who knew his scholarship was contingent on James leaving. James doesn;t leave. on top of that, he gets arrested over the summer. it's also important to keep in mind that the ncaa clearinghouse has nothing to do with his grades or his acceptance to a school. it's merely making sure that classes he took at his prep school met their requirements for accepted classes. being allowed to enroll at a school is still up to the school itself.
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My implication was that he was run off the team because Crean overbooked scholarships and we used the academic issues as an excuse.
You really seem slow on the uptake here.
The quote you brought to the table qualified that the academic excuse is used when a better player is found. In MU's case, it was the other way around. We lost the better player due to academics. Your statistics seem to back that up.
We understand that your personal dignity, integrity, and overall sense of self has been diminshed during Tom Crean's tenure at Marquette. We only ask that you not grasp at straws like a 14 year-old girl looking to make her boyfriend jealous.
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Slow on the uptake? I'm slow on the uptake!?!? You're explaining to ME why I used the quote from the Seth Davis article? And I'M slow on the uptake?
One more time...I'll try to write slowly. I used the quote to point out that teams use academic issues as a convenient excuse when they overbook scholarships. Some do this when another, better player comes along. Some, like Marquette, do it when a player unexpectedly returns to school. Unfortunately, Seth Davis wasn't kind enough to spell out EXACTLY what Marquette did, but he came close enough.
If you don't understand something, fine. But don't try to tell ME what I meant.
Jesus...Coobeys Oil Depot tell ME that I'M slow on the uptake. That's rich.
Anybody on this board who thinks the situation with Saunders was honestly academic-related needs to have their head examined...or removed from their rectum.
That is the last comment I will make on this subject.
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Hard to believe he'll maintain this pace, but through two games Saunders is averaging 15.5 points and 6.5 rebounds a game.
Ouch.
When is his court appearance for illegal substance...just curious
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To me for the Crean haters is that Crean had more players than scholarships. Hence, no matter what the reason that one of the players didn't make the team, there is a conspiracy that it was so he could get down to the number of scholarships. Academics, drugs it would of been something. Hence if argued it was a legitimate reason to a Crean hater holds no water. ::)
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Slow on the uptake? I'm slow on the uptake!?!? You're explaining to ME why I used the quote from the Seth Davis article? And I'M slow on the uptake?
One more time...I'll try to write slowly. I used the quote to point out that teams use academic issues as a convenient excuse when they overbook scholarships. Some do this when another, better player comes along. Some, like Marquette, do it when a player unexpectedly returns to school. Unfortunately, Seth Davis wasn't kind enough to spell out EXACTLY what Marquette did, but he came close enough.
If you don't understand something, fine. But don't try to tell ME what I meant.
Jesus...Coobeys Oil Depot tell ME that I'M slow on the uptake. That's rich.
Anybody on this board who thinks the situation with Saunders was honestly academic-related needs to have their head examined...or removed from their rectum.
That is the last comment I will make on this subject.
WOW. Your logic is so flawed here that it isn't even funny. Seriously, this isn't funny anymore.
1+1 = Crean is a jackass, right?
Here is the quote you posted:
"That opens the possibility that if a coach is able to sign a better player, the school can cut the first player loose and say it was for academic reasons. (Don't think that doesn't happen.)"
Seth Davis is implying that teams could cut a player loose to get a better player on the roster and blame it on academics.
Now, James is certainly better then Saunders, no doubt.
But, why would MU cut Saunders loose instead of Hazel if Saunders is more talented than Hazel? (the stats that YOU provided support this).
If MU was going to be shady like you are implying, why not get rid of the least talented player? And don't tell me because Hazel has more upside, because even with Mbawke MU still needed immediate help in the post, so they would have kept Saunders.
Most likely (occam's razor as somebody pointed out earlier), it's because Saunders really did have academic issues and the arrest earlier this summer.
Why is this so hard for you to believe?
We get it, you don't like Crean. But, at this point its SEVERELY clouding your judgment and logic skills.
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Slow on the uptake? I'm slow on the uptake!?!? You're explaining to ME why I used the quote from the Seth Davis article? And I'M slow on the uptake?
One more time...I'll try to write slowly. I used the quote to point out that teams use academic issues as a convenient excuse when they overbook scholarships. Some do this when another, better player comes along. Some, like Marquette, do it when a player unexpectedly returns to school. Unfortunately, Seth Davis wasn't kind enough to spell out EXACTLY what Marquette did, but he came close enough.
If you don't understand something, fine. But don't try to tell ME what I meant.
Jesus...Coobeys Oil Depot tell ME that I'M slow on the uptake. That's rich.
Anybody on this board who thinks the situation with Saunders was honestly academic-related needs to have their head examined...or removed from their rectum.
That is the last comment I will make on this subject.
Tough crap. You're still slow on the uptake. You posted the quote intending to go one way. When that was blocked by showing it to be illogical you've been twisting it around to fit your original intention.
I know what Seth Davis meant. He wrote it. If a better player comes along, cut the existing player and call it academic. MU had the ideal situation (according to Davis) in cutting Trend and keeping Saunders. That didn't happen. If you want to twist it more, MU could've cut Hazel (a hard worker who may mirror Burke's development) and kept Saunders (by all accounts an offensively gifted player). Do you not realize that the one area MU needs the most is an offensively gifted and athletic 6'7'' player who can play inside? Hello!!! Damian Saunders, you're table is ready. Why would they cut that? And here you are, Mr. Marquette has sold its soul to the devil, slamming Crean for not finding a way to keep Saunders in the program. That's rich, cupcake.
I understand you've made your last comment and for your reputation that's a good thing. Advice for next time: when you bring a quoted excerpt to the table don't reinterpret its meaning to fit your agenda. Let it speak for itself. Read this, absorb it, don't comment on it, and be a more polished negative nancy in the future. With this, and the assistant coach proclamation, you're slipping.
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"This is my last comment on the subject". Wow. Wishes really do come true.
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I typically defend PRN. I think he is correct on many of the things he says. As is to be expected many people of a schools sport forum where rose colored glasses and see everything in apositve to their school slant. However, in this case i will choose to completely disagree with PRN.
Using simply logic 001 from freshman year ( Lalamiere?). The SI guys stated that often a coach/school will over book to get a better player and then deny admission to the kid that got over recruited.
that does not sound "familiar" in the case with MU.
First of all because Tom crean had every reason to Beleive that he would need to fill 4 scholarships based on the act that DJ had chosen to enter his name in the draft. It is his job to put the most compettitve team on the court that he is capapble of. If his capabilty to do that is not so good he gets fired. Also, to assume that Crean did not have a discussion with Hazel or Suanders about the potential of James coming back and it's implications is simply nuts. Does anyone see Suanders bad mouthing Crean or his high school coach or anyone? No! seems to me that Suanders new the deal and new his fate was based on DJ. simple ass that.
Secondly, Mu did not overbook and then deny admission to the pporer player to get the better player. Mu did not do that so no that does not sound familiar. Wheteher it be Prep performance, Guru rankings, early season performance or any other qualification you want to use. MU denied admission to the significantly better player. hazel verballed befor e Suanders my gues si Saunders offer was always conditonal on DJ not coming back and Saunders knew that...much ado about nothing.
I could see some questions or concern had Mu taken Saunders over HAzel, given he verballed after Hazel and with his off the court issues, then the article would sound familar.
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Is it me or does PRN walk away most of the skirmishes he starts? I'm amazed how many people regularly satisfy him by engaging in "discussion" with him and then he walks away after being cornered by reason. Don't ever forget that his reasoning is based upon his hatred of Crean. I imagine he is one of the guys still defending Mike Deane a few years back.
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i am glad i don't get involved in these petty arguments, they seem quite stressful.
go MU !
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that Harrison guy seem pretty sharp!
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Yeah, that Harrison, whose ban note says "This user is a repetitive nuisance to this society. Banned."
What a turkey. Now, the next persona that replaced him was so much better. Until he was banned. Followed by a new and improved persona!
Happy, happy, joy, joy.