MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 08:15:06 PM
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http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11216972/playground-basketball-dying
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Sadly, it isn't just playgrounds for basketball.
When I was a kid, we played baseball every day in the summer. We would bike around to different parks in the city and could always find a new game. Today, it is hard to find even one park where ball is being played.
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and even the backyards are not used for sports anymore. Rare to see a wiffle ball game take place in my neighborhood full of kids.
Then one of my favorite games when we only had a few was strikeout. kids now have no clue what strikeout is, they only play sports if it is organized for them by adults
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Are they all playing video games? All the time?
Cannot imagine how that is physically healthy.
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Are they all playing video games? All the time?
Cannot imagine how that is physically healthy.
It's not only that. As a previous commenter said, it's that every athletic activity now must be organized by adults.
I'm not THAT old. In the summer and on weekends, I used to get up in the morning, wolf down breakfast, yell to my mom that I was going to play basketball (or baseball), promise to be back by dinnertime, jump on my bike, ride a mile or two to the nearest playground, and play for hours. When thirsty, we'd drink from the fountain. Nobody had bottled water or Gatorade.
In most cities - even most dinky little towns where crime is nonexistent - that's practically unheard of today.
My kids are half my age and, while they had their share of organized activities, by the time they were 11 or 12, they were allowed to meet up with friends for pickup basketball, baseball or whatever. And we lived in the city of Chicago. I guess if anything had happened to them we'd have never forgiven ourselves, but they knew to stick to the areas they knew and we trusted.
We now live on a white-bread suburban cul de sac, and our next door neighbor won't even let her three boys go three houses down to play basketball without her standing there. She and her husband race all over town taking the kids to soccer and basketball and baseball practices and games, every minute of every day organized.
Sigh.
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It's not only that. As a previous commenter said, it's that every athletic activity now must be organized by adults.
I'm not THAT old. In the summer and on weekends, I used to get up in the morning, wolf down breakfast, yell to my mom that I was going to play basketball (or baseball), promise to be back by dinnertime, jump on my bike, ride a mile or two to the nearest playground, and play for hours. When thirsty, we'd drink from the fountain. Nobody had bottled water or Gatorade.
In most cities - even most dinky little towns where crime is nonexistent - that's practically unheard of today.
My kids are half my age and, while they had their share of organized activities, by the time they were 11 or 12, they were allowed to meet up with friends for pickup basketball, baseball or whatever. And we lived in the city of Chicago. I guess if anything had happened to them we'd have never forgiven ourselves, but they knew to stick to the areas they knew and we trusted.
We now live on a white-bread suburban cul de sac, and our next door neighbor won't even let her three boys go three houses down to play basketball without her standing there. She and her husband race all over town taking the kids to soccer and basketball and baseball practices and games, every minute of every day organized.
Sigh.
It's funny because my wife and some friends were just talking about this stuff the other day. It's not even just the lack of pick-up "sports" games....it's outdoor exercise in general. A summer day in the late 80s for me and my friends on the block would be to grab breakfast by 8am then be out the door to play some sort of pick up game(usually soccer or football) then we'd "cool" off by playing four square or pickle or some other game. By then it be lunch time where we'd all pile up at someones house who'd feed like 12 of us. We'd wolf down the food then ride our bikes the 3 miles to the local outdoor pool where we'd play marco polo or sharks and minnows for at least 4 hours with a couple of snack breaks thrown in like Nerds and Push Pops. Then we'd ride our bikes back home where we'd all disperse to eat dinner with our families then we'd all meet back up to play something like kick the can or pickle again then as it got dark we'd play ghost in the graveyard and then by 930 we'd all have to head home to get ready for bed. Rinse and repeat for the next day.
We had one friend who had every video game and system known to man(so it wasn't like we didn't have the access), but the only time we played video games was when it was raining and we couldn't get anyone to take us to the bowling alley where we all had summer passes for unlimited bowling.
Maybe even then for most it was different because we lived in a "suburb" of the air force bases where my dad was stationed, but 80% of the families in the neighborhood were either stationed or worked at the base. Maybe it was tighter knit and communities are a lot less tight these days.
Part of the decline I blame on the over hyping of bulling and part the general increase in laziness within the population.
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Your memories are a lot like mine from the late 70s / early 80s, but there was a lot of dead time that caused a great deal of boredom as well. Since we didn't have cable television, I had to wait for the soaps to be over and for the cavalcade of game shows to begin.
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I live across the street from a baseball diamond.
Little league? 3 nights per week.
Dads pitching to kids for practice? at least a couple times per week.
Organized football? Everyday starting Aug-Nov.
Kids pitching to kids? Kids organizing their own HR derby? Pickup game? Pick-up football? Soccer? NEVER. Nope. Nada. None.
I don't want to get into an old guy rant (because I'm not really into those), but it does seem like parents spend a lot more time entertaining their kids these days. Lots of organized actives, lots of parents participating with their kids (pitching, playing basketball, etc.)
Maybe it's better, I dunno. I guess we'll see how these kids turn out in 15 years.
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It's funny because my wife and some friends were just talking about this stuff the other day. It's not even just the lack of pick-up "sports" games....it's outdoor exercise in general. A summer day in the late 80s for me and my friends on the block would be to grab breakfast by 8am then be out the door to play some sort of pick up game(usually soccer or football) then we'd "cool" off by playing four square or pickle or some other game. By then it be lunch time where we'd all pile up at someones house who'd feed like 12 of us. We'd wolf down the food then ride our bikes the 3 miles to the local outdoor pool where we'd play marco polo or sharks and minnows for at least 4 hours with a couple of snack breaks thrown in like Nerds and Push Pops. Then we'd ride our bikes back home where we'd all disperse to eat dinner with our families then we'd all meet back up to play something like kick the can or pickle again then as it got dark we'd play ghost in the graveyard and then by 930 we'd all have to head home to get ready for bed. Rinse and repeat for the next day.
We had one friend who had every video game and system known to man(so it wasn't like we didn't have the access), but the only time we played video games was when it was raining and we couldn't get anyone to take us to the bowling alley where we all had summer passes for unlimited bowling.
Maybe even then for most it was different because we lived in a "suburb" of the air force bases where my dad was stationed, but 80% of the families in the neighborhood were either stationed or worked at the base. Maybe it was tighter knit and communities are a lot less tight these days.
Part of the decline I blame on the over hyping of bulling and part the general increase in laziness within the population.
Very similar to my childhood in the 90s and early 2000s. I lived in Evanston, IL, Akron, OH, a suburb of Philly, outside DC (Virgina side), and then eventually settled outside Detroit and did all the things you mentioned in each city. I was also lucky enough to always have woods behind our house or very close by so we were really into fishing, building treehouses, and paintball.
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yes parents have to entertain kids all the time now. That contributes to the wussification of kids today. Dad or mom is always there to get them water or wipe a cut or make sure little Johnny is treated fairly.
I coach my kids in Baseball and Basketball and I am constantly preaching to their teams that the couple practices we have each week should not be the only time they pick up a ball.
This summer has been very cool compared to others and anytime the temp hit 80 the kids would complain it is too hot lets go in teh shade and sit down.
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I grew up in the early 70s and my memories are a lot like all of yours. Mom wouldn't let me out of the house until 9 and had no idea where I was but I better be home for dinner at 6 and she'd feed whoever showed up for lunch, like the other Moms would do.
How kids just don't play with kids anymore hit home with me when my brother-in law rented out a gym for my nephew's birthday (somewhere between 10th and 12th birthday) and the kids needed my brother-in-law to pick sides for a pick-up basketball game, because they were arguing so much and couldn't figure out how to do it.
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I grew early 70s and my memories are a lot like all of yours. Mom wouldn;t let me out of the house until 9 and had no idea where is was but I better be home for dinner at 6 and she'd feed whoever showed up for lunch, like the other Moms would do.
How kids just don't play with kids anymore hit home with me when my brother-in law rented out a gym for my nephew's birthday (somewhere between 10th and 12th birthday) and the kids needed my brother-in-law to pick sides for a pick-up basketball game, because they were arguing so much and couldn't figure out how to do it.
Not sure if this is true of everywhere but in Seattle parents now arrange "Play Dates" for kids. I mean, WTFO?
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Not sure if this is true of everywhere but in Seattle parents now arrange "Play Dates" for kids. I mean, WTFO?
I'm convinced 90% of this is because the parents want to get together and hang out, using the kids as an excuse. Unintended consequence is kids are over organized and can't do anything for themselves.
Here is what I wonder....if we all have these memories and all think kids should be doing the same things...how have we gotten here? Are you MU folks with kids and these memories in the minority? How did we all hump the bunk so bad?
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In the summer in my neighborhood, we had pick-up baseball & wiffle ball regularly (baseball with a tennis ball, so as to not break any windows and the wiffle ball bats taped up with hockey tape to give the hitting some heft). One summer we even created our own wiffle ball league of only 3 teams: Yankees, Red Sox & Brewers. (Some Milwaukee crystal-balling with that one as my brother and I both ended up at Marquette.) It also helped to spur interest to have the wiffle ball factory like 5 minutes from my house.
As always, The Atlantic has the pulse of the people. Always very interesting reads in this Magazine. This is from the May 2014 issue. See link below.
The Overprotected Kid
A preoccupation with safety has stripped childhood of independence, risk taking, and discovery—without making it safer. A new kind of playground points to a better solution.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/03/hey-parents-leave-those-kids-alone/358631/
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I'm convinced 90% of this is because the parents want to get together and hang out, using the kids as an excuse. Unintended consequence is kids are over organized and can't do anything for themselves.
Here is what I wonder....if we all have these memories and all think kids should be doing the same things...how have we gotten here? Are you MU folks with kids and these memories in the minority? How did we all hump the bunk so bad?
Well I wouldn't call it necessarily "bad," and I wouldn't call it "wussification." It's just different, for better and for worse. As someone who has older (early 20s) kids, most of their lives didn't consist of random play, but they were organized. They would have to do stuff around the house in the summer, sat around and played video games or chatted online, then would go to practice, games, etc.
And they have turned out just fine. Much more mature than I was at that age. I had a better relationship with them during their teen years, and have a better relationship with them than I did with my parents back then. I work with college kids every day of the week and find that to be the case by and large.
I think the biggest drawback in the lack of risk-taking and decision making in the article that MU Fan in CT linked to. Some of my kids friends can't seem to get their lives going. Completed some college, still living at home, etc. And some started out that way and have slowly figured things out. Some...notsomuch.
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Not to be weird, but I wonder if kids get bored enough anymore.
We've always talked about boredom being bad (which I guess is correct), but boredom can lead to creativity and curiosity. (ie How does this work? Can we make X into Z? etc.)
Give some kids a pile of junk and enough time, and they will figure out how to entertain themselves.
Give some kids an iPad and unlimited battery life, and they aren't likely to create much. (maybe minecraft is good though?)
I don't know if this is bad or good... I guess just different.
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I think the biggest drawback in the lack of risk-taking and decision making in the article that MU Fan in CT linked to. Some of my kids friends can't seem to get their lives going. Completed some college, still living at home, etc. And some started out that way and have slowly figured things out. Some...notsomuch.
I don't think kids turning out that way is necessarily exclusive to this generation or how it was raised. It just seems that way because with more media available than ever before, kids not knowing what to do with themselves is apparently newsworthy.
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Meaux Park has basketball games going on every time I've been by. It's over on Green Bay & Villard.
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I'm convinced 90% of this is because the parents want to get together and hang out, using the kids as an excuse. Unintended consequence is kids are over organized and can't do anything for themselves.
Here is what I wonder....if we all have these memories and all think kids should be doing the same things...how have we gotten here? Are you MU folks with kids and these memories in the minority? How did we all hump the bunk so bad?
When my kids were really young and had play dates (I'm talking early '90s here), we NEVER stayed to hang out with the other parents. We looked at it as an opportunity to finally have a few moments together alone without the kids - whether it be to go to a movie, to go shopping for major items or, yes, to have a little sexy time.
As for your second paragraph ... I'm quite proud that we didn't coddle our kids, that we pushed them out the door to get some exercise and get together with their friends, or whatever. We didn't have video games until my son was 16, and they didn't have cellphones until they were well into high school. Neither kid had a TV in his/her bedroom.
Not long after we moved into our little house on the North Side, I decided that our backyard was so small I might as well make it useful, so I paved almost the whole thing and had one of those 1000-dollar-plus in-ground basketball hoops put in (even though money was very tight for us). Our yard became a place where kids all over the neighborhood gathered for games.
When our kids started high school, at Payton High on the near North Side, they took the el all by themselves and learned how to navigate around the city. If my daughter had basketball practice and didn't get done till after dark, I would meet her at the el stop and walk her home, but otherwise we taught them how to fend for themselves. Whoever got home first was supposed to start to get dinner ready.
I know I sound like an old man from a long-gone era, but THAT WAS ONLY 10-12 YEARS AGO! I'm not talking about the 1950s! Still, today we might get arrested for child neglect - or at least be judged by our peers for being neglectful parents. But our kids learned how to live without having their hands held by us all the time.
We were strict about bedtime, homework, and especially about letting us know where they were. If my son was going to Bobby's and plans changed and he ended up at Sean's, he was expected to call us and let us know. If he didn't, there was hell to pay. So yes, they had freedom, but we were still their parents.
They are now young adults, on their own living in different parts of the country from us and each other. Our 4-5x per year reunions are filled with love and joy. I'm incredibly proud of them.
I coach middle-school girls basketball now and I swear these kids aren't allowed to wipe their own noses! Mommy and Daddy do EVERYTHING for them!!!
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Careful, a few posters here are going to level you guys for thinking life was better back in the day.
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Careful, a few posters here are going to level you guys for thinking life was better back in the day.
Chico's,
You've officially turned into Skip Bayless. Congrats.
You're a smart guy, but every topic/subject/post becomes about you personally... not unlike Skip.
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I'm not that old so I don't understand where you guys are coming from with the kids don't play sports thing anymore. I mean when I was young my grandpa would give us some boxing gloves and head gear, push the furniture aside and have a cousins tournament. Or my best friend and I would put on our lacrosse gear and have a one on one game for a couple hours.
The decline in baseball is probably related to the need for constant activity in this generation. I know that's why i never enjoyed the sport. Basketball i still see constantly as I drive through the west side of Chicago to get home from work... Perhaps we stay too secluded in our suburbs or perhaps society put too much influence on basketball being a "street" game so kids from the majority of our neighborhoods have trouble dreaming of playing in big big sold out arenas etc.
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Our town has a summer program thru the rec department titled 'Baseball for the fun of it.' The program is distinct from little league and entails pre-teens meeting at the little league diamond in the afternoon, where a high school kid organizes ball games. I find the title and concept of this officially structured program ironic, funny and absurd. The same exact thing existed when I was a kid, but my folks never had to pay $$ for me to participate. Kids ran it and whoever showed up at the field to play, played.
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Our town has a summer program thru the rec department titled 'Baseball for the fun of it.' The program is distinct from little league and entails pre-teens meeting at the little league diamond in the afternoon, where a high school kid organizes ball games. I find the title and concept of this officially structured program ironic, funny and absurd. The same exact thing existed when I was a kid, but my folks never had to pay $$ for me to participate. Kids ran it and whoever showed up at the field to play, played.
You're right, however, I think the program is a good idea because it does provide a level of safety.
I don't think Parents want to turn their kids into hermits, but I think there is a significant amount of fear out there (right or wrong). Parents aren't going to let their kids roam around the neighborhood/city like they used to. (again, I'm not saying this is correct, I just think it's a fact).
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You're right, however, I think the program is a good idea because it does provide a level of safety.
I don't think Parents want to turn their kids into hermits, but I think there is a significant amount of fear out there (right or wrong). Parents aren't going to let their kids roam around the neighborhood/city like they used to. (again, I'm not saying this is correct, I just think it's a fact).
I think it's worth discussing if it's right or wrong. I think that is one of the key drivers in that so many parents are trying to prevent bad things in life from happening to their kids that they prevent life from happening to their kids.
If you don't know the bad, you don't appreciate the good. I really do think with creation of this data and communications we have given the illusion of full control of things when really we don't have any more control on life happening than we did before.
Just my 2 cents
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Chico's,
You've officially turned into Skip Bayless. Congrats.
You're a smart guy, but every topic/subject/post becomes about you personally... not unlike Skip.
+1000000
Yes I recognize responding to this feeds the beast, but Ammo's statement must be supported ;D
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Our town has a summer program thru the rec department titled 'Baseball for the fun of it.' The program is distinct from little league and entails pre-teens meeting at the little league diamond in the afternoon, where a high school kid organizes ball games. I find the title and concept of this officially structured program ironic, funny and absurd. The same exact thing existed when I was a kid, but my folks never had to pay $$ for me to participate. Kids ran it and whoever showed up at the field to play, played.
Part of the reason you did that was because there was nothing to do in the house and you wanted to have some social interaction. Kids can be entertained, and have some level of social interaction, without leaving the house now.
Look, having parents organize their kids athletic events is better, much better, than having kids who aren't active. But if you think that kids are just going to revert back to the days of pick up baseball and the like...well, its not going to happen.
I think if the internet existed 100 years ago, it would be filled with old guys bitching about how pathetic it is that kids just waste their summer playing games instead of working in the fields like they used to do.
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Sure, but was just commenting on how much things have changed when something billed as 'fun' now has to be organized and paid for.
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I think it's worth discussing if it's right or wrong. I think that is one of the key drivers in that so many parents are trying to prevent bad things in life from happening to their kids that they prevent life from happening to their kids.
If you don't know the bad, you don't appreciate the good. I really do think with creation of this data and communications we have given the illusion of full control of things when really we don't have any more control on life happening than we did before.
Just my 2 cents
You're right, you have to allow your children some amount of risk in order to develop their ability to function and develop decision making skills.
I just think Parents become paralyzed because what if something catastrophic happens? The "what it" terrifies a lot of parents.
My friends and I were using power tools at 12 years old to build stuff (unsupervised). It was an excellent exercise in creativity, team work, project planning, delayed gratification, etc.
However, if you look at what we were doing, most parents (today) would argue that handing a 12 year old a circular saw isn't worth the risk. If a kid cuts off his finger, most people would immediately blame the parent for handing the kid a saw and walking away. The reality is, this is a grey area. How much risk are we willing to accept to help our kids develop?
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My two cents:
Normal for people to look back on "their time" (childhood, young adulthood, etc.,) as the best of times. I wouldn't trade "my time" for my kid's or grandkid's. That said, the country we live in today is a better place than the one of my youth - more open, more honest, more fair. I agree that progress can also create new problems (being "connected" is great but can be overdone). And that all "change" isn't progress. It's great that parents are closer to their kids with each new generation, but not so great that parents want to be best friends with or hover over their kids.
Bottom line: Want to reminisce about the "good old days"? Fine. Want to be bitter about the present? Not so good.
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Chico's,
You've officially turned into Skip Bayless. Congrats.
You're a smart guy, but every topic/subject/post becomes about you personally... not unlike Skip.
Ignore me, pretty simple.
Unlike Skippy, I try to be accurate. Same as in this case, people get all hot and bothered when someone says life was better back in the day. Fair warning is what I gave out. Don't like it, ignore me.
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My two cents:
Normal for people to look back on "their time" (childhood, young adulthood, etc.,) as the best of times. I wouldn't trade "my time" for my kid's or grandkid's. That said, the country we live in today is a better place than the one of my youth - more open, more honest, more fair. I agree that progress can also create new problems (being "connected" is great but can be overdone). And that all "change" isn't progress. It's great that parents are closer to their kids with each new generation, but not so great that parents want to be best friends with or hover over their kids.
Many people of your advanced age don't agree Lenny. Like some of the WWII and Korean War vets that I have the pleasure of being with each year. Of course, BrandX and Sultan will call my wife and I a liar when I say that. Wish they could be there each July 4th, maybe they can come out and hear it for themselves.
I'm enjoying your fine city of Chicago, today, Lenny. Cool temps, not too bad on the humidity.
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My two cents:
Normal for people to look back on "their time" (childhood, young adulthood, etc.,) as the best of times. I wouldn't trade "my time" for my kid's or grandkid's. That said, the country we live in today is a better place than the one of my youth - more open, more honest, more fair. I agree that progress can also create new problems (being "connected" is great but can be overdone). And that all "change" isn't progress. It's great that parents are closer to their kids with each new generation, but not so great that parents want to be best friends with or hover over their kids.
Exactly. Not better. Not worse. Just different.
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Ignore me, pretty simple.
Unlike Skippy, I try to be accurate. Same as in this case, people get all hot and bothered when someone says life was better back in the day. Fair warning is what I gave out. Don't like it, ignore me.
Your response is "Ignore me!"?
Why have you gone full heel? What's the deal? Is it more fun for you to be hated?
I'm all for a good debate and discussion (some smart guys around here), but you've become a parody of yourself. You're smarter than that.
Why do you want to be a joke? Why do you want to be ignored?
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IMO, CBB has jumped the shark. I have put him on ignore many times over the years, but relented after a few days/weeks. It is going to be quite a while this time.
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Your response is "Ignore me!"?
Why have you gone full heel? What's the deal? Is it more fun for you to be hated?
I'm all for a good debate and discussion (some smart guys around here), but you've become a parody of yourself. You're smarter than that.
Why do you want to be a joke? Why do you want to be ignored?
Hated? Nah. If people want to hate, that is their issue. Nothing going to stop hatred if it is in man's heart, nor would I want to deal with anyone that has hatred in the heart. No point.
I have my opinions, you have yours. If you don't like mine, that's fine. I only have two people on ignore, Brandx and Sultan, not because I don't think they are smart guys, but when they call my wife a liar and don't apologize I'm just not going to read their crap.
If my commentary bothers you, just put me on ignore. It's not that hard. I made an honest comment that some people will give some of you crap for harking back to the old days. It was truthful and you know it was accurate....well, in actuality it all depends here on who says the what, not what is said. So perhaps some of you would get a pass. If my comments cause you angst or hatred or whatever, you should put me on ignore.
Doesn't particularly matter, as stated after today spinning up on a new role that will suck great amount of time for me anyway, so you'll see much less of me. For you and others, I'm sure that is a welcome relief.
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Someone tell Chicos that I am sorry for hurting his feelings, but I truly think he was lying. (And that is the last I will say on that subject.)
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Your response is "Ignore me!"?
Why have you gone full heel? What's the deal? Is it more fun for you to be hated?
I'm all for a good debate and discussion (some smart guys around here), but you've become a parody of yourself. You're smarter than that.
Why do you want to be a joke? Why do you want to be ignored?
It's what he does. I tried to have normal discussions, but even when I agreed, he'd turn the subject around just so he could disagree.
He has gotten to the point when everyone other than a few who agree with his politics think he is a joke.
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I've actually enjoyed Chicos quite a bit this offseason. The superbar has become very entertaining.
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Many people of your advanced age don't agree Lenny. Like some of the WWII and Korean War vets that I have the pleasure of being with each year. Of course, BrandX and Sultan will call my wife and I a liar when I say that. Wish they could be there each July 4th, maybe they can come out and hear it for themselves.
I'm enjoying your fine city of Chicago, today, Lenny. Cool temps, not too bad on the humidity.
Here we go again - another Strawman!!!!
Why would I say that? Simple answer - paranoia.
What we say is that he takes one example or happenstance of anything and makes it an unquestionable fact. Then argues against anyone who doesn't totally accept it.
So some people think the olden days were better. That's fine. But his paranoid mind cannot accept the fact that this just means that some people think the olden days were better. Not everyone, not the majority - just some people.
Then somehow his persecuted brain turns it into me calling him and his wife liars because we think right now is a great time.
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Many people of your advanced age don't agree Lenny. Like some of the WWII and Korean War vets that I have the pleasure of being with each year. Of course, BrandX and Sultan will call my wife and I a liar when I say that. Wish they could be there each July 4th, maybe they can come out and hear it for themselves.
I'm enjoying your fine city of Chicago, today, Lenny. Cool temps, not too bad on the humidity.
Welcome to Chicago, Chico. Hope you have a pleasant and prosperous stay.
I don't deny that you breakfast with WWII and Korean vets one day each year. I don't deny that in a group of men aged 80-95 you'll find some unhappy people. "What's become of this country that's no longer mine and I don't understand? It was better in my day" is a common lament of the elderly in every generation. They're wrong, of course, as was every generation before them with the same complaints about the USA. Sad, but often a natural and normal part of growing old. Much sadder, though, when seen in a young man like yourself.
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Welcome to Chicago, Chico. Hope you have a pleasant and prosperous stay.
I don't deny that you breakfast with WWII and Korean vets one day each year. I don't deny that in a group 0f men aged 80-95 you'll find some unhappy people. "What's become of this country that's no longer mine and I don't understand? It was better in my day" is a common lament of the elderly in every generation. They're wrong, of course, as was every generation before them with the same complaints about the USA. Sad, but often a natural and normal part of growing old. Much sadder, though, when seen in a young man like yourself.
You're going on ignore, buddy >:(
You just called Chico's wife a liar!!
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Hated? Nah. If people want to hate, that is their issue. Nothing going to stop hatred if it is in man's heart, nor would I want to deal with anyone that has hatred in the heart. No point.
I have my opinions, you have yours. If you don't like mine, that's fine. I only have two people on ignore, Brandx and Sultan, not because I don't think they are smart guys, but when they call my wife a liar and don't apologize I'm just not going to read their crap.
If my commentary bothers you, just put me on ignore. It's not that hard. I made an honest comment that some people will give some of you crap for harking back to the old days. It was truthful and you know it was accurate....well, in actuality it all depends here on who says the what, not what is said. So perhaps some of you would get a pass. If my comments cause you angst or hatred or whatever, you should put me on ignore.
Doesn't particularly matter, as stated after today spinning up on a new role that will suck great amount of time for me anyway, so you'll see much less of me. For you and others, I'm sure that is a welcome relief.
EDIT:
Forget it.
Shouldn't have a personal discussion like this on a forum.
Chico's, if you want to discuss further, you can PM me.
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Welcome to Chicago, Chico. Hope you have a pleasant and prosperous stay.
I don't deny that you breakfast with WWII and Korean vets one day each year. I don't deny that in a group of men aged 80-95 you'll find some unhappy people. "What's become of this country that's no longer mine and I don't understand? It was better in my day" is a common lament of the elderly in every generation. They're wrong, of course, as was every generation before them with the same complaints about the USA. Sad, but often a natural and normal part of growing old. Much sadder, though, when seen in a young man like yourself.
Thank you for the well wishes.
Secondly, thank you for acknowledging that such conversations exist without throwing out liar claims. To be more accurate, they happen more than just one occasion a year, but that happened to be the situation I was talking about.
Where I differ from you is that you say they are wrong. In my view, to answer that question all comes down to one's life experience. It may be wrong in your experience, it may be dead right for someone else's. At a macro level, these particular men were extremely disappointed in how things have turned out. Let's not get into race and progress in those areas, I'm sure they would wholeheartedly agree and that may be how you are judging society as a whole in your views. That's fine. The feel that my wife and I got from them was in societal views in general. How man treats man, lack of personal responsibility, discipline, me first materialism, the beating down of religious values, etc. In their view, that is what has happened and if that's what they believe, how can they be wrong? This isn't a math exercise where only one answer exists that is right or wrong.
As for my views, I've stated them before. I absolutely believe life was better based on listening to my elders, not ignoring them. Going through my own experiences. Some of it is brought upon ourselves because there is so much information out there today that we are over stimulated on what could go wrong. I recognize that. Of course there were sexual predators living in our zipcode 25 years ago, but now it pops up on an alert from the city. Of course there were break ins in homes, but now you lock the door all the time when you leave and we never did as kids. Etc, etc. All of that is true, and we become overly protective as a result partly because the guilt of having all this information at our hands if something were to happen and we ignored it, we would feel awful.
Finally, we will agree to disagree on whether all older folks think their past was better than the present. You're an example of the opposite. ;D Certainly some fit the bill of "back in my day" things were better. On the flip side, plenty of the older generation will also opine about how easy we have it today with technology, more holidays, etc, etc and how much better and easier things are. So it goes both ways in my opinion.
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Someone tell Chicos that I am sorry for hurting his feelings, but I truly think he was lying. (And that is the last I will say on that subject.)
A friend PM'd me to unignore you so I could read this. You didn't hurt my feelings, you were wrong. I don't lie, or certainly don't try to. I wasn't lying about this, you just didn't like what these vets had to say so you lashed out at the messenger.
As you once told me to do, go F yourself. :-* Neither you or Brandx have a right to say my wife or me are lying, you weren't there. Period.
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Of course there were break ins in homes, but now you lock the door all the time when you leave and we never did as kids. Etc, etc. All of that is true, and we become overly protective as a result partly because the guilt of having all this information at our hands if something were to happen and we ignored it, we would feel awful.
I really never quite understand when people say this. I grew up in an area where folks would say it wasn't necessary to lock your doors when you left the house but we still did because guess what? There was a lock on the door. The day you leave it unlocked and someone steals your TV etc. how do explain to your insurance agent or the cops that you felt that where you lived was security enough and you didn't need no stinkin' locks? My father would have grounded us for leaving the door unlocked.
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Where I differ from you is that you say they are wrong. In my view, to answer that question all comes down to one's life experience. It may be wrong in your experience, it may be dead right for someone else's. At a macro level, these particular men were extremely disappointed in how things have turned out. Let's not get into race and progress in those areas, I'm sure they would wholeheartedly agree and that may be how you are judging society as a whole in your views. That's fine. The feel that my wife and I got from them was in societal views in general. How man treats man, lack of personal responsibility, discipline, me first materialism, the beating down of religious values, etc. In their view, that is what has happened and if that's what they believe, how can they be wrong? This isn't a math exercise where only one answer exists that is right or wrong.
They are wrong. Their Camelot never existed. Many of them were born into a society in which half of the population couldn't vote due to their gender. The society they grew up in made sure that gender's citizenship remained second class. The country they grew up in was segregated. Minorities who sought equality were often met with brutal opposition. Homosexuals were "queers", mentally defective deviants who were tolerated only if they remained in their closets hiding. When you gloss over these horrors to praise that era for how "man treats man" I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Plenty of "religious values" and plenty of institutionalized racism, sexism and homophobia. I understand that man and societies evolve - I'm not saying these men are evil. They are products of their era - mostly good men who lived in a more primitive and unjust society. Lots of problems today? Sure. SOME things worse than they were in the 40s,50s,60s, etc.? Okay. But how you, they or anybody can long for a society that by commission or omission supported so much fundamental injustice is beyond me. To me that's demonstrably wrong.
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They are wrong. There Camelot never existed. Many of them were born into a society in which half of the population couldn't vote due to their gender. The society they grew up in made sure that gender's citizenship remained second class. The country they grew up in was segregated. Minorities who sought equality were often met with brutal opposition. Homosexuals were "queers", mentally defective deviants who were tolerated only if they remained in their closets hiding. When you gloss over these horrors to praise that era for how "man treats man" I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Plenty of "religious values" and plenty of institutionalized racism, sexism and homophobia. I understand that man and societies evolve - I'm not saying these men are evil. They are products of their era - mostly good men who lived in a more primitive and unjust society. Lots of problems today? Sure. SOME things worse than they were in the 40s,50s,60s, etc.? Okay. But how you, they or anybody can long for a society that by commission or omission supported so much fundamental injustice is beyond me. To me that's demonstrably wrong.
To Chicos labeling them like that and calling their era primitive is being intolerant of these intolerant people.
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They are wrong. There Camelot never existed. Many of them were born into a society in which half of the population couldn't vote due to their gender. The society they grew up in made sure that gender's citizenship remained second class. The country they grew up in was segregated. Minorities who sought equality were often met with brutal opposition. Homosexuals were "queers", mentally defective deviants who were tolerated only if they remained in their closets hiding. When you gloss over these horrors to praise that era for how "man treats man" I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Plenty of "religious values" and plenty of institutionalized racism, sexism and homophobia. I understand that man and societies evolve - I'm not saying these men are evil. They are products of their era - mostly good men who lived in a more primitive and unjust society. Lots of problems today? Sure. SOME things worse than they were in the 40s,50s,60s, etc.? Okay. But how you, they or anybody can long for a society that by commission or omission supported so much fundamental injustice is beyond me. To me that's demonstrably wrong.
According to Chicos, if the lives of middle-class, heterosexual white Americans were better back in the 1950s, then the lives of *all* American were better back then.
He is living an over-romanticized version of the past.
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As for my views, I've stated them before. I absolutely believe life was better based on listening to my elders, not ignoring them. Going through my own experiences. Some of it is brought upon ourselves because there is so much information out there today that we are over stimulated on what could go wrong. I recognize that. Of course there were sexual predators living in our zipcode 25 years ago, but now it pops up on an alert from the city. Of course there were break ins in homes, but now you lock the door all the time when you leave and we never did as kids. Etc, etc. All of that is true, and we become overly protective as a result partly because the guilt of having all this information at our hands if something were to happen and we ignored it, we would feel awful.
Finally, we will agree to disagree on whether all older folks think their past was better than the present. You're an example of the opposite. ;D Certainly some fit the bill of "back in my day" things were better. On the flip side, plenty of the older generation will also opine about how easy we have it today with technology, more holidays, etc, etc and how much better and easier things are. So it goes both ways in my opinion.
People were blissfully ignorant about sexual predators back in the day. Unless, of course, you were the victim of one. We didn't lock our garage or our door, but we were robbed once and had a car stolen.
In general, the older folks want it both ways. They walked uphill (both ways) 5 miles to school in the snow (you kids have it so easy) but it was so much better "back in the day".
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According to Chicos, if the lives of middle-class, heterosexual white Americans were better back in the 1950s, then the lives of *all* American were better back then.
He is living an over-romanticized version of the past.
You forgot "males".
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Many people of your advanced age don't agree Lenny. Like some of the WWII and Korean War vets that I have the pleasure of being with each year. Of course, BrandX and Sultan will call my wife and I a liar when I say that. Wish they could be there each July 4th, maybe they can come out and hear it for themselves.
I'm enjoying your fine city of Chicago, today, Lenny. Cool temps, not too bad on the humidity.
I'm sure those old folks are white men.
If you were a Japanese-American citizen in the 1940s, life wasn't much fun being imprisoned with no due process.
If you were an African-American, you used a different water fountain, attended separate schools, rode in the back of the bus, and couldn't stay in white hotels.
If you were a married woman, you were property of your husband. If you were unmarried, you probably worked for 50% of the pay of a man in a comparable job, and you were never going to run that company.
If you were gay, you had to hide your identity from the world or face career and social suicide.
But yeah, if you fell into the 30% of the population that was a white heterosexual male, life was probably pretty good.
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Seems like this thread is going well too...