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MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on July 26, 2014, 08:00:50 AM

Title: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 26, 2014, 08:00:50 AM
If this happens, the ivies take over.  Their boosters have all the money.


Unleash the boosters
Drop the false idol of amateurism in college sports
Originally Published: July 25, 2014
By Skip Bayless | ESPN.com

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11260822/college-football-paying-athletes

I have taken this stand for 30 years in newspapers, on radio and on "First Take." I've often been called un-American for proposing an extremely American solution to the un-American injustice taking place before our wide eyes every college football Saturday. So go ahead, close your eyes and condemn me if you must.

Here I go again: College football should make cheating legal. If the NFL can keep getting away with forcing players to wait three years out of high school before they're drafted -- three! -- the NCAA should be made to do away with its rules against paying players beyond room, board and tuition. I'm not talking about some token, $2,000-a-year "spending money" stipend for every player. I mean: If university boosters want to bid for the nation's best players, let them!

After all, this country was built on a good ol' free-market economy. Supply and demand. And are the best 18-year-old football players ever in demand. That's why TV networks pay billions -- around $16 billion total -- to televise college football. ESPN is paying about $470 million annually for the next 12 years -- about $5.64 billion total -- just to broadcast the new four-team playoff.

Yet the stars of the show are forced to risk their pro futures for three unpaid years playing a violent, high-stakes game before packed stadiums seating upward of 100,000 and TV audiences of millions? That's the biggest crime in sports.

Earlier this week, Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby suggested many of college football's recruiting crimes are going unpunished, calling it "an understatement to say cheating pays." My initial reaction: Good, maybe some of these kids are getting a little of what they deserve.

Bowlsby's point is that the NCAA's enforcement division is "broken" -- in large part because it doesn't have governmental subpoena power to force under-oath testimony from those not directly involved with schools (obviously boosters and agents). It's easier than ever, Bowlsby is saying, to get away with paying players.

What Bowlsby didn't say is that there are more rich boosters than ever who would gladly pay players to win bragging rights for them on autumn Saturdays.

So why not let them?

Even the power schools still cry poor, claiming that, despite the TV windfalls, they still don't have enough money to fund all their nonrevenue sports, men's and women's. So if enough of the top recruits ever unite and sue the NCAA, surely a judge (even on appeal) would rule the NCAA cannot restrict these players from making all they can on the open market.

I'm not talking about letting the NCAA control the process by setting salary limits. This is about whatever the market will bear. If schools can't or won't pay but boosters will, problem solved. Obviously, college stars deserve substantial compensation, right?

This is where I lose many people, who sputter something like, "It just ... just wouldn't be college football if we knew the players were getting paid."

That's exactly what the NCAA has been selling -- and hiding behind -- for years. The Amateur Ideal ... every alum's fantasy that every one of those fine young men down on that field chose to play for Dear Old U because they wanted to sit in the same classrooms and attend the same frat parties that generations of students have, then spill their blood to kick Rival State's tail.

That's a bunch of ivy-covered bunk, and you know it.

Though I graduated from Vanderbilt, I was born into a family of crazed University of Oklahoma football fans and became one. But not once did I ever believe any of the many high school stars from Texas chose to attend college in Norman for any reason other than football (and, over the years, maybe a Trans Am or a few under-the-table bucks). I accepted my Sooners were little more than Oklahoma City's pro football team.

Now, please face this reality: Boosters should be allowed to entice recruits with whatever they want to offer -- cars, signing bonuses, annual salaries, annuities. I'm not talking about the Northwestern players' attempt to unionize college football and protect every player's rights and secure standard pay. I'm talking strictly supply and demand.

Of course, the first fear would be that billionaire boosters such as Phil Knight at the University of Oregon or T. Boone Pickens at Oklahoma State would buy superteams. Highly doubtful.

No. 1, these men have learned that projecting high school football stars is far riskier than high school basketball stars. You see far more swings and misses on can't-miss football recruits than basketball blue chips. These billionaires didn't get rich by gambling foolishly. There would be a limit to the money they offered -- and many marginal recruits would wind up being offered no more than a scholarship.

No. 2, how many 18-year-olds around the country would take the money and run to three years in Eugene, Oregon, or Stillwater, Oklahoma, if boosters at a nearby school came up with, say, half of what those schools were offering? How many top recruits would then follow childhood dreams to play for their mom's or dad's school or their favorite team? How many would choose to play for less money at, say, Alabama because they believed Nick Saban would better prepare them to make NFL millions?

No, letting boosters bid for recruits would not dramatically change college football's balance of power. For that matter, consider the choice Saban made. ESPN's Paul Finebaum reports in his new book, "My Conference Is Better Than Your Conference: Why the SEC Rules College Football" that Texas boosters were prepared to offer Saban $12-15 million in a signing bonus and a package of $100 million. For reasons other than money, obviously, Saban stayed at Alabama, where he'll make "only" about $7 million this season.

Wait, Saban was offered $100 million, yet, by NCAA rules, Leonard Fournette could be offered nothing but a scholarship? Fournette is a 6-foot-1, 226-pound running back from New Orleans who signed with LSU about 80 miles up the road in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. From all I've heard from coaches about Fournette -- and I spoke with many this week at ESPN -- this kid could have easily been a top-10 pick in May's NFL draft. Here, America, is the next Adrian Peterson.

If he becomes a Heisman contender and leads LSU to a national championship next season, or the next, how much will he be worth to the school? As much as coach Les Miles, who makes $4.3 million this season? Easily. And if, heaven forbid, an injury jeopardizes his pro career ...

Once upon a time, a freshman running back named Maurice Clarett led Ohio State to a national championship, then was suspended for his sophomore season and went to court to win the right to enter the NFL draft a year early. It appeared college football's walls had come tumbling down when a federal judge ruled in Clarett's favor. But of course, the NFL flexed its legal influence and Clarett lost in the U.S. Court of Appeals -- a dark day for gifted high school football players to come.

Someday, some college star will win his financial freedom in court.

Let the very best be paid without limits. Let boosters foot the bill.

Trust me, college football's multibillion-dollar popularity would not be threatened. Come fall Saturdays, everyone in the stands and watching on TV would forget the stars on the field are being paid like the pro football players they really are.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Stronghold on July 26, 2014, 09:00:34 AM
"Without limits" is when this situation gets out of control.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 26, 2014, 09:06:27 AM
"Without limits" is when this situation gets out of control.

The fact that the NCAA might need a "salary cap" speaks volumes about the unfairness of the current situation.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 09:44:15 AM
The fact that the NCAA might need a "salary cap" speaks volumes about the unfairness of the current situation.

What is unfair about the current situation?  That they get a free education, free room and board, free tutoring, free world class coaching, free access to network of powerful alumni that 99.9% of other students don't get.

The idea like most of Bayless ideas, is laughable.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: wadesworld on July 26, 2014, 09:49:10 AM
What is unfair about the current situation?  That they get a free education, free room and board, free tutoring, free world class coaching, free access to network of powerful alumni that 99.9% of other students don't get.

The idea like most of Bayless ideas, is laughable.

It gets clicks.  I'd be shocked if Bayless himself believes 50% of what he says.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 09:54:08 AM
Berg, there is money everywhere and it would hardly just be the ivies.  There are only so many roster positions.  You would also have many Ivy alumni that would be furious that certain kids are being enrolled at their institutions that have no academic ability to succeed there.

The beneficiaries would be large schools with large alumni bases that already place sports at a high level with academics somewhere in the middle.  
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 09:54:47 AM
It gets clicks.  I'd be shocked if Bayless himself believes 50% of what he says.

Yup.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: NersEllenson on July 26, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
What is unfair about the current situation?  That they get a free education, free room and board, free tutoring, free world class coaching, free access to network of powerful alumni that 99.9% of other students don't get.

The idea like most of Bayless ideas, is laughable.

What's unfair about it, particularly football, is that the top recruits are blue chip commodities that schools fight over - and profit handsomely from - in building powerful and profitable football teams.  These kids bang the hell out of their bodies, are one injury away from never being able to cash in on the near world class talent they've worked hard to develop by the age of 18 - and aren't able to cash in for 3 years.  

There is no other scenario/"profession" I can think of where a person develops an elite talent/skill, and is not able to cash in on it for 3 years, when the market would otherwise be ready to pay big money for that talent  - other than college football model.

If someone was ready to basically pay you $10M when you were 18 years old, or you could go to school for 4 years and risk potential injury that would eliminate that $10M talent/skill - would 4 years of a free education, room and board, tutoring be enough to compel you to forgo that immediate payout?  And like many of the top football recruits, assume you came from a family with limited economic resources - what would you do Chicos?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChuckyChip on July 26, 2014, 04:21:06 PM

If someone was ready to basically pay you $10M when you were 18 years old, or you could go to school for 4 years and risk potential injury that would eliminate that $10M talent/skill - would 4 years of a free education, room and board, tutoring be enough to compel you to forgo that immediate payout?  And like many of the top football recruits, assume you came from a family with limited economic resources - what would you do Chicos?

But how many 18-year olds are physically ready to jump to, and play in, the NFL?  I would say very, very few.  So either you would need some type of development league (low pay, risk of injury) or they go to college...and they don't need to stay for four years, I believe they only need to play two years if they redshirt.

This is the issue I have with paying college players - yes, a few sell a lot of jerseys and draw extra fans, but what about the third string right tackle or the backup punter?  Do you pay them the same amount?  We're talking about setting up a system more focused on the "superstars" of which there are very few.  The majority of college football players don't play in the NFL, so a four or five year full scholarship with the attendant benefits seems more than fair.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 26, 2014, 06:01:12 PM
But how many 18-year olds are physically ready to jump to, and play in, the NFL?  I would say very, very few.  So either you would need some type of development league (low pay, risk of injury) or they go to college...and they don't need to stay for four years, I believe they only need to play two years if they redshirt.

This is the issue I have with paying college players - yes, a few sell a lot of jerseys and draw extra fans, but what about the third string right tackle or the backup punter?  Do you pay them the same amount?  We're talking about setting up a system more focused on the "superstars" of which there are very few.  The majority of college football players don't play in the NFL, so a four or five year full scholarship with the attendant benefits seems more than fair.

I guess that the clearest way I can state my position is from an economics perspective.  Anytime you collude with all of a person's potential options to use their talent in order to limit the compensation that a person can receive from utilizing that talent, fairness has gone out the window.  Any justification for shutting down the free market with such collusion can only be a rationalization.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 26, 2014, 06:04:02 PM
Furthermore, I don't know if it is college football's responsibility to pay players because the 18 year old's access to the free market is blocked by a labor agreement.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 26, 2014, 06:06:09 PM
Berg, there is money everywhere and it would hardly just be the ivies.  There are only so many roster positions.  You would also have many Ivy alumni that would be furious that certain kids are being rolled at their institutions that have no academic ability to succeed there.

The beneficiaries would be large schools with large alumni bases that already place sports at a high level with academics somewhere in the middle

I disagree.  Those schools are already receiving the benefits of booster payments to athletes through the use of sophisticated booster networks that are expert at circumventing the NCAA rules.  The beneficiaries would be the schools with integrity that currently compete with a hand behind their back by not having such networks.  For those schools, it would level the playing field.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 26, 2014, 06:10:29 PM
Furthermore, I don't know if it is college football's responsibility to pay players because the 18 year old's access to the free market is blocked by a labor agreement.

I agree that the NFL's labor agreement doesn't create college football's responsibility to pay collegiate football players.  It is college football's responsibility to pay players because those schools use those players to generate a gawd awful amount of income for their athletic departments.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 26, 2014, 06:13:34 PM
I agree that the NFL's labor agreement doesn't create college football's responsibility to pay collegiate football players.  It is college football's responsibility to pay players because those schools use those players to generate a god awful amount of income for their athletic departments.


I don't disagree.  I am not sure that you can just open it up completely.  Even the NFL and NBA have salary caps.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 26, 2014, 06:28:06 PM

I don't disagree.  I am not sure that you can just open it up completely.  Even the NFL and NBA have salary caps.

That's the beauty of Bayless' argument.  He's not advocating that schools squeeze their athletic departments budgets to pay the players, he's just saying let boosters -- volunteers willing to foot the bill -- have the ability to toss away as much of their own personal wealth as they want in order to recruit/compensate players.  He's really saying just legalize what many schools, especially in the SEC, already are doing under the table, so every booster can have the equal right to willingly toss money recruits way.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MarquetteDano on July 26, 2014, 08:10:41 PM
That's the beauty of Bayless' argument.  He's not advocating that schools squeeze their athletic departments budgets to pay the players

I don't know what the overall ratio would be, but for every dollar a booster gave to a player there would be a sizeable portion that would be reduced to the school.  I would guess something like for every dollar maybe that is sixty less cents the school would get from a booster.  That would hit the schools pretty hard.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: WarriorFan on July 26, 2014, 08:16:50 PM
You would also have many Ivy alumni that would be furious that certain kids are being rolled at their institutions that have no academic ability to succeed there.
Some of the Ivies - Harvard specifically - gave up "academic ability to succeed" a long time ago when they sold out to the socialist wing of the Democratic party to become it's training ground.  They have become a degree mill for those who buy into the philosophy.

Nothing would be different if we changed this out for football excellence.  

I think Bayless is giving a window into the future of college athletics, like it or not.  

The only things I would regulate is:
- no direct payments from boosters to athletes
- pay is based on playing time.  Benchwarmers get $10k/year.  Full time starters get $50k/year.  Everyone else in between.
- No additional scholarships.  Football teams are already too large at the college level.  
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 26, 2014, 08:24:00 PM
Some of the Ivies - Harvard specifically - gave up "academic ability to succeed" a long time ago when they sold out to the socialist wing of the Democratic party to become it's training ground.  They have become a degree mill for those who buy into the philosophy.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 26, 2014, 08:42:47 PM
Give me a break. The kid that just decommitted from SMU signed a 1 year deal in China for $1.2M. He'll get endorsements, too. Buh-bye. The NCAA shouldnt cater to a very select group of kids that DONT HAVE to play college basketball  but willingly CHOOSE to. If the NBA wants an age limit, there is nothing prohibiting kids from playing abroad or in the D-League. Take a hike. See ya later. The NCAA shouldnt bend over backwards for a select group of kids that are using college basketball for a year or two to make an NBA roster. College basketball will do just fine if the top 20 or so kids every year decide to play for pay somewhere. To my knowledge, no one is putting a gun to each kid's head and telling him he has to play college basketball. Oh, not mature enough to play abroad? Well, apparently those same kids are mature enough 9 months later to interview agents, hire an agent, sign endorsement deals, sign a multi-million dollar contract, and present himself in a way that is endearing to a NBA franchise's fans. Get lost.

College football players have less options. Is that the fault of the NCAA? Nope. Dont like the rules? Take a hike. Again, there is no gun to the head of these high school players to sign with a college. So what is their alternative to college? I dont know. Maybe some of them should email the NFL commissioner and ask what their options are....  

And I cant believe someone is arguing that they are risking injury. Again, no one is making them play the sport. There is risk/reward with every decision in life. If football players had an alternative to college, they would still risk injury in some other developmental league. And I HIGHLY doubt there is room on a 53 man roster for a kid right out of high school. No chance.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 26, 2014, 08:48:00 PM
Jay Bilas once described how it would work ...

Big time blue chip recruit gets 300k plus tuition.   Big time recruit, agrees to stay 2 years, maintain a 2.5 GPA and not get arrested.   If big time recruit leaves early, fails to keep grades or gets busted, the contract details fine and damages big time recruit must pay.

Finally since big time recruit is getting paid, he can hire tutors (the school can provide a list if interested) and an accountant to pay taxes.


Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 26, 2014, 09:09:51 PM
Give me a break. The kid that just decommitted from SMU signed a 1 year deal in China for $1.2M. He'll get endorsements, too. Buy-bye. The NCAA shouldnt cater to a very select group of kids that DONT HAVE to play college basketball  but willingly CHOOSE to. If the NBA wants an age limit, there is nothing prohibiting kids from playing abroad or in the D-League. Take a hike. See ya later. The NCAA shouldnt bend over backwards for a select group of kids that are using college basketball for a year or two to make an NBA roster. College basketball will do just fine if the top 20 or so kids every year decide to play for pay somewhere. To my knowledge, no one is putting a gun to each kid's head and telling him he has to play college basketball. Oh, not mature enough to play abroad? Well, apparently those same kids are mature enough 9 months later to interview agents, hire an agent, sign endorsement deals, sign a multi-million dollar contract, and present himself in a way that is endearing to a NBA franchise's fans. Get lost.

College football players have less options. Is that the fault of the NCAA? Nope. Dont like the rules? Take a hike. Again, there is no gun to the head of these high school players to sign with a college. So what is their alternative to college? I dont know. Maybe some of them should email the NFL commissioner and ask what their options are....  

And I cant believe someone is arguing that they are risking injury. Again, no one is making them play the sport. There is risk/reward with every decision in life. If football players had an alternative to college, they would still risk injury in some other developmental league. And I HIGHLY doubt there is room on a 53 man roster for a kid right out of high school. No chance.

Man do I love this sentiment ... I 100% agree, I really do.  

Can we also get rid of minimum wage, union rules, OHSA and EEOC rules while we are at it?

(PS, can High School football players go straight to the Arena League or the CFL to get paid?  Anyone know?)
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 26, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
Can we also get rid of minimum wage, union rules, OHSA and EEOC rules while we are at it?


And child labor.  Don't forget getting rid of those pesky child labor laws.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 26, 2014, 09:47:33 PM
This reminds me of the "Just let everybody take steroids" argument.

And sometimes I find myself agreeing with that, too.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 26, 2014, 11:16:49 PM
What's unfair about it, particularly football, is that the top recruits are blue chip commodities that schools fight over - and profit handsomely from - in building powerful and profitable football teams.  These kids bang the hell out of their bodies, are one injury away from never being able to cash in on the near world class talent they've worked hard to develop by the age of 18 - and aren't able to cash in for 3 years.  

There is no other scenario/"profession" I can think of where a person develops an elite talent/skill, and is not able to cash in on it for 3 years, when the market would otherwise be ready to pay big money for that talent  - other than college football model.

If someone was ready to basically pay you $10M when you were 18 years old, or you could go to school for 4 years and risk potential injury that would eliminate that $10M talent/skill - would 4 years of a free education, room and board, tutoring be enough to compel you to forgo that immediate payout?  And like many of the top football recruits, assume you came from a family with limited economic resources - what would you do Chicos?

There are lots of professions with restrictions.  I could study for years to be an expert in medicine, but not want to pay for medical school.  I would still be banned from ever practicing that trade, even if I was far superior from my independent training.

I could become an expert in the legal field and publish article after article in legal journals, but would be banned from practicing law unless I went to law school.

I could independently study scientific fields to become a world renowned expert, but at almost all prestigious universities would not be allowed to be a professor without a PhD.

These are all cases where the profession sets requirements for their field.  Much like the NFL sets a 3-year requirement.  In all those other disciplines, while you hone your craft and prove yourself, you make a tiny fraction (an instead often pay) to develop the requirements.

These kids have 0 value at this point until they play for a college.  The spotlight that gives them creates great value in some cases.

If they are a freak of nature and do have value they can go play elsewhere (aka SMU basketball player).  If there aren't alternative leagues it is because they are not marketable or profitable ventures and thus, the players actually do not have value.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 11:39:29 PM
What's unfair about it, particularly football, is that the top recruits are blue chip commodities that schools fight over - and profit handsomely from - in building powerful and profitable football teams.  These kids bang the hell out of their bodies, are one injury away from never being able to cash in on the near world class talent they've worked hard to develop by the age of 18 - and aren't able to cash in for 3 years.  

There is no other scenario/"profession" I can think of where a person develops an elite talent/skill, and is not able to cash in on it for 3 years, when the market would otherwise be ready to pay big money for that talent  - other than college football model.

If someone was ready to basically pay you $10M when you were 18 years old, or you could go to school for 4 years and risk potential injury that would eliminate that $10M talent/skill - would 4 years of a free education, room and board, tutoring be enough to compel you to forgo that immediate payout?  And like many of the top football recruits, assume you came from a family with limited economic resources - what would you do Chicos?

Do you know how many jobs require a minimum of a bachelor's degree?  Happens all over the place.  Let's look at coaching in the NCAA, how many programs require a degree?  Almost all of them.  Is that fair? 

I get the 0.5% edge case you are trying to present, but that's all it is, an edge case.  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is stupid, and that's what people are advocating like this with Bayless.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 26, 2014, 11:47:58 PM
Give me a break. The kid that just decommitted from SMU signed a 1 year deal in China for $1.2M.
 

I'm guessing you really don't know the facts. The only options he had to play basketball were the Far East where he could earn real money or the D-League where he would make less than someone working at Starbucks. That's it!

And the only reason this is the case is that all the rich, capitalist, free-marketers are only rich, capitalist, free-marketers when their own pockets are getting lined.



Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 26, 2014, 11:50:43 PM
There are lots of professions with restrictions.  I could study for years to be an expert in medicine, but not want to pay for medical school.  I would still be banned from ever practicing that trade, even if I was far superior from my independent training.

I could become an expert in the legal field and publish article after article in legal journals, but would be banned from practicing law unless I went to law school.


You are equating profession that can determine whether a person lives or dies with basketball? Let's not get silly while we make our arguments.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 11:50:46 PM
That's the beauty of Bayless' argument.  He's not advocating that schools squeeze their athletic departments budgets to pay the players, he's just saying let boosters -- volunteers willing to foot the bill -- have the ability to toss away as much of their own personal wealth as they want in order to recruit/compensate players.  He's really saying just legalize what many schools, especially in the SEC, already are doing under the table, so every booster can have the equal right to willingly toss money recruits way.

Can we pinpoint the size of the SEC under the table scheme?  Or is it more rare than reality and has a life of its own?  Sure, there is Cam Newton and certainly others.  Obviously others that haven't been caught, but one wonders how much of it is also built up as myth, too.  Do not think anyone knows this answer, but I suspect bigger in the imagination than reality.  Maybe if Bayless could use his expert journalistic skills to expose how big the problem is he would have more supporters on this, but until he can define the problem accurately his solution may be opening up the abuse many X times. 

His argument is the old "well they're doing it anyway so just legalize it".  That has gone haywire over the years in many examples. 

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 26, 2014, 11:54:26 PM
I'm guessing you really don't know the facts. The only options he had to play basketball were the Far East where he could earn real money or the D-League where he would make less than someone working at Starbucks. That's it!

And the only reason this is the case is that all the rich, capitalist, free-marketers are only rich, capitalist, free-marketers when their own pockets are getting lined.





Poor kid. He had to go all the way to the "Far East" to earn some money ($1.2M) playing basketball. Jeez, I really hope he doesn't have a long morning commute to the gym everyday. Maybe he should file a grievance... :'(
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 26, 2014, 11:55:06 PM
Jay Bilas once described how it would work ...

Big time blue chip recruit gets 300k plus tuition.   Big time recruit, agrees to stay 2 years, maintain a 2.5 GPA and not get arrested.   If big time recruit leaves early, fails to keep grades or gets busted, the contract details fine and damages big time recruit must pay.

Finally since big time recruit is getting paid, he can hire tutors (the school can provide a list if interested) and an accountant to pay taxes.




Awesome.  This is going to be so great.  Incredibly well thought out, too.  I can't wait for the game fixing kicks in, when the holdouts start happening, etc.  It's going to be awesome.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 27, 2014, 12:08:10 AM
Poor kid. He had to go all the way to the "Far East" to earn some money ($1.2M) playing basketball. Jeez, I really hope he doesn't have a long morning commute to the gym everyday. Maybe he should file a grievance... :'(


Yup. An 18 year old kid has to go to a different country, different culture, different language, different game for what reason?

Oh, because in his own country, he is banned from trying to make it in the NBA.

Ah.... the Land of Opportunity.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 27, 2014, 12:18:53 AM
Yup. An 18 year old kid has to go to a different country, different culture, different language, different game for what reason?

Oh, because in his own country, he is banned from trying to make it in the NBA.

Ah.... the Land of Opportunity.

Lol. Take it up with the NBA. As I stated in my original post, the NBA's age limit shouldn't be the NCAA's problem. That was my point.

I was 19 when I studied abroad. Loved it. I even willingly went as a poor college student. No one dangled $1.2M in my face.

If the market is in china...go to china. Or don't. No one forced him.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 12:39:54 AM
You are equating profession that can determine whether a person lives or dies with basketball? Let's not get silly while we make our arguments.

Ners claimed he couldn't think of a single profession.  Those are the most obvious and thus are fine for an argument of that sort.  Whether their should be restrictions is a whole different argument compared to whether there are other examples of it occurring.

The fact is, that there are a lot of restrictions requiring a specific amount of training and proof of ability before one can be employed in specific professions.

The reason I picked the examples I did, is because it involves a group within that profession (doctors, lawyers, CPA's) that dictate the requirements to joint the 'club'.  Just like the players associations help dictate what is required in their discipline.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 06:48:08 AM
Awesome.  This is going to be so great.  Incredibly well thought out, too.  I can't wait for the game fixing kicks in, when the holdouts start happening, etc.  It's going to be awesome.

We have game fixing now.  We have a version of holdouts now (see ReggieSmith and McKay).

The current system is broken now.  This might make it better.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 06:59:47 AM

Can we pinpoint the size of the SEC under the table scheme?  Or is it more rare than reality and has a life of its own?  Sure, there is Cam Newton and certainly others.  Obviously others that haven't been caught, but one wonders how much of it is also built up as myth, too.
Do not think anyone knows this answer, but I suspect bigger in the imagination than reality.  Maybe if Bayless could use his expert journalistic skills to expose how big the problem is he would have more supporters on this, but until he can define the problem accurately his solution may be opening up the abuse many X times.  

His argument is the old "well they're doing it anyway so just legalize it".  That has gone haywire over the years in many examples.  

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=39961.0

See the highlighted parts

Booster Proud of His Largess and Game-Day Parties

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/sports/ncaafootball/booster-proud-of-his-largess-and-game-day-parties.html?hp

Roy Adams’s two-story brick home is tucked neatly into a middle-class residential street. In the driveway, University of Tennessee and Southeastern Conference flags fly at full staff. On the front door, a poster urges his guests to adhere to a five-drink limit.

Adams may be 75 years old, but his home looks like something dreamed up by teenage fraternity brothers: he has 36 big-screen televisions, five TV viewing rooms, three game rooms, a wet bar and, on a recent afternoon, two tapped kegs.

Adams, a retired restaurant and real estate developer, has been called the Great Gatsby of college sports for his legendary game-day parties, which often include athletes, coaches and politicians mixing with a crowd that can top 100. But he is more than a septuagenarian party animal.

A 1963 graduate of Tennessee, Adams represents the twilight of a college sports booster. For more than 40 years, he cherished his role as a benefactor for players, even if it meant breaking a few rules. If college athletes generally receive gifts in the shadows, Roy Adams is the rare booster who crows about his largess.

He is not remorseful, and now, largely out of the booster game, he says he is proud of his life’s work and the friendships he has made.

“I knew the N.C.A.A. rules,” he said. “I just didn’t care for them.”

As a national debate swirls over whether college athletes should be paid, Adams revels in memories of the old days when he distributed cash with a wink to favored players. By his own estimate, he has spent $400,000 on food, clothes, cash and a handful of cars for college athletes.

“I’ve always found him to be one of the more fascinating people I’ve met in college sports,” said Paul Finebaum, an ESPN radio host and former columnist. “He’s a throwback to a more romantic time.”

Today’s boosters, Adams said, have lost the intimate relationships with players he always sought. From his perspective, the N.C.A.A. rules have tightened drastically. And the players have changed too. “Today you give a kid a Chevrolet, and he wants a Cadillac,” Adams said. “You give them $1,000, they want two or three. It’s not the same as it used to be.”


Adams has been a Tennessee football fan for decades, but now, instead of making trips to Knoxville, he brings the party to his TV rooms — all five of them. On a typical Saturday, guests spill from room to room, passing a shuffleboard table, a stuffed deer head, a signed photograph from the former Tennessee star Peyton Manning.

On one wall a photograph of Adams shaking hands with Nick Saban hangs above a signed picture of Richard Nixon. In the pantry, Adams had a urinal installed. Then there are all the televisions, squeezed together like puzzle pieces around every corner. His friends say there is no better sports bar in Memphis.

On a recent afternoon, the Shelby County mayor was a guest. Romaro Miller, who played quarterback at Mississippi before Eli Manning, was there. So were Bobby Ray Franklin, the quarterback who led Ole Miss to a share of the 1959 national championship, and Ron Gust, who played for Tennessee in the 1950s.

On fall Saturdays, two cooks arrive at Adams’s home at 7 a.m. to prepare a menu of more than 30 dishes in an industrial-size kitchen Adams had installed several years ago. He offers a buffet that ranges from sushi to fried chicken cooked in a vat on the back patio. Adams said he spends around $1,500 each weekend on the spread.

On this afternoon, Adams’s beloved Tennessee visited Florida. As a flood of guests arrived before kickoff, Adams bellowed gleefully, “No Democrats or Florida fans allowed!”

Many of the guests are former college players and beneficiaries of Adams’s generosity, creating an eclectic mix of boosters, former jocks and current high school coaches from around the area. Most SEC teams are represented among the crowd. An Arkansas fan chided Volunteer supporters about the hillbillies in east Tennessee. Female Ole Miss students were the butt of another joke.

Adams hurried from room to room, making sure the food was just so and each guest properly attended to. Stories tumbled out of his mouth in between sips from an old-fashioned. “Nobody’s wife would ever let them do this,” he said. “I’m a bachelor, so I can.”

Adams recalls his bending of the N.C.A.A. rules with a wistful smile. He described players lining up outside his Knoxville hotel room knowing he would happily slip them a few bucks. Players at Arkansas State, Memphis and Ole Miss have also been the recipients of his generosity and hospitality.

Adams has had several run-ins with the N.C.A.A. and his alma mater. He said the former Tennessee athletic director Doug Dickey once confronted him outside the locker room and told him to stay away from the team. The N.C.A.A. investigated Adams in the late 1980s for sponsoring a recruiting trip for two players to visit the University of Houston. Adams’s defense was that he never did the bidding of any one school. He said he regularly sent money to Cortez Kennedy, the Pro Football Hall of Fame defensive tackle, when he played at Miami. It was proper, he said, because he had no association to the school.

“I’m a friend to all athletes, everywhere,” he said, beaming.


In 2000, Adams became well known in Tennessee circles as a commentator who helped spark the federal investigation and conviction of Logan Young, an Alabama booster in Memphis who paid a coach $150,000 to steer defensive lineman Albert Means to Tuscaloosa.

In a wrongful termination civil suit later brought by two Alabama coaches that stemmed from the Young case, Adams was deposed. He wore a white coonskin cap and an orange blazer and brought along a bottle of Tennessee sipping whiskey to the proceedings.

Adams relishes the memory. “I couldn’t think of anything that would upset an Alabama lawyer more,” he said.

Adams was born in Batesville, Miss., to tenant farmers and moved to Memphis in childhood. As a teenager, he worked as a Senate page in Washington. Autographed pictures of Lyndon B. Johnson, John F. Kennedy and Estes Kefauver are prominent on the walls. (His politics shifted right after the Jimmy Carter administration.)

At Tennessee, he fell in love with the pageantry of football. When he returned to Memphis, he served on the national board of governors for the Tennessee Alumni Association. “I didn’t have a family,” he said. “This became my family.”

Adams managed a Goodyear store in Memphis and then opened a chain of Adams Family Restaurants. He worked in real estate before retiring. As he reflected on the string of scandals gripping college sports, in part because of boosters like him, he chuckled.

“It’s funny,” he said. “You’d be right to say I wasted my life on football, but it can be a very emotional game.”

He added: “I like to take care of people. Now I want people to come over here and enjoy themselves.”

Late in the afternoon, a graphic flashed on one of the televisions showing the seven straight national championships won by SEC teams. Adams’s eyes gleamed as he chanted, “S-E-C! S-E-C!”

“All this — the parties, the friends, the football,” said Pete Story, a local high school coach. “I think it’s what keeps Roy alive.”
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 07:21:27 AM
But the reaction to an overly regulated system isn't complete anarchy.  I am all for enhanced benefits, and I don't care one lick if scholarships for Olympic sports are diminished as a result.  I am also not opposed to athletes cashing in on their likeness in some way.

But just turning everyone loose I don't think is the answer.

I'm also not going to buy into Chico's hyperbole that its the end of the world if athletes get more money either.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 27, 2014, 08:04:29 AM
Ners claimed he couldn't think of a single profession.  Those are the most obvious and thus are fine for an argument of that sort.  Whether their should be restrictions is a whole different argument compared to whether there are other examples of it occurring.

The fact is, that there are a lot of restrictions requiring a specific amount of training and proof of ability before one can be employed in specific professions.

The reason I picked the examples I did, is because it involves a group within that profession (doctors, lawyers, CPA's) that dictate the requirements to joint the 'club'.  Just like the players associations help dictate what is required in their discipline.


Yep.  And add teachers, dental hygieinsts and plenty of other occupations - which don't determine whether people live or die - that have minimum requirements before you can make a living.  A huge portion of our economy is filled with people who had to go to a certain amount of schooling and pass various tests to be eligible for their occupation.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 08:09:23 AM
But the reaction to an overly regulated system isn't complete anarchy.  I am all for enhanced benefits, and I don't care one lick if scholarships for Olympic sports are diminished as a result.  I am also not opposed to athletes cashing in on their likeness in some way.

But just turning everyone loose I don't think is the answer.

I'm also not going to buy into Chico's hyperbole that its the end of the world if athletes get more money either.

Why is it required that the football and basketball teams pay for all the non revenue sports?  Is the business school required to pay for the English department?  Is the engineering program required to pay for the philosophy department?

Schools will make a determination if the want more than two sports teams (football and basketball).  My guess is the Olympic sports will be fine.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 08:15:00 AM
Yep.  And add teachers, dental hygieinsts and plenty of other occupations - which don't determine whether people live or die - that have minimum requirements before you can make a living.  A huge portion of our economy is filled with people who had to go to a certain amount of schooling and pass various tests to be eligible for their occupation.

Yes but the national association of dental hygienists, or the national association of teachers did not pass rule requiring an age requirement for employment.  The national basketball association does have an age requirement.

Age discrimination is something recognized by the law, education discrimination is not.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 08:16:32 AM
Why is it required that the football and basketball teams pay for all the non revenue sports?  Is the business school required to pay for the English department?  Is the engineering program required to pay for the philosophy department?

Schools will make a determination if the want more than two sports teams (football and basketball).  My guess is the Olympic sports will be fine.


It isn't "required" that football and basketball pay for all non revenue sports.  It is a side-effect of the NCAA requiring a minimum number of sports.

Similarly, at a number of institutions, departments like engineering likely do underwrite departments like philosophy.  In fact, due to core curriculum requirements, that is likely the case at Marquette.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 08:17:15 AM
Yes but the national association of dental hygienists, or the national association of teachers did not pass rule requiring an age requirement for employment.  The national basketball association does have an age requirement.

Age discrimination is something recognized by the law, education discrimination is not.


The age discrimination in this case is perfectly legal since it is part of the labor agreement with the NBAPA.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 27, 2014, 08:52:46 AM
Can we pinpoint the size of the SEC under the table scheme?  Or is it more rare than reality and has a life of its own?  Sure, there is Cam Newton and certainly others.  Obviously others that haven't been caught, but one wonders how much of it is also built up as myth, too.  Do not think anyone knows this answer, but I suspect bigger in the imagination than reality.  Maybe if Bayless could use his expert journalistic skills to expose how big the problem is he would have more supporters on this, but until he can define the problem accurately his solution may be opening up the abuse many X times. 

His argument is the old "well they're doing it anyway so just legalize it".  That has gone haywire over the years in many examples. 


The source of my knowledge of the SEC under the table scheme is thinly based.  It's based upon the article posted here a while back called something like "The Ten Rules for Paying College Athletes" which was discussed in its own thread.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2014, 09:07:16 AM
Yep.  And add teachers, dental hygieinsts and plenty of other occupations - which don't determine whether people live or die - that have minimum requirements before you can make a living.  A huge portion of our economy is filled with people who had to go to a certain amount of schooling and pass various tests to be eligible for their occupation.

I think a more apples-to-apples comparison with athletes are performers.

Concert musicians, actors, singers, dancers, etc.

In a free-market society, these people are free to pursue their professions of choice without the requirement of a college degree. Some choose to study acting, singing, violin and dance, but the professional powers-that-be who control the purse strings do not require such study. Nor do they place arbitrary age limits on the pursuit of the profession.

The NFL is a monopoly. In fact, it was ruled so in a court of law in the USFL trial - even though damages were only $1, it doesn't invalidate the ruling. If you want to earn money playing football in the United States, you have little choice but to kowtow to the monopoly. Its requirement that an athlete spend three years in college is arbitrary, unnecessary and self-serving. I would like to see some athletes fight it in court; the problem is that the deep-pocketed NFL would cause so many delays in any legal proceeding that the athlete would be at least a college junior by the time he'd get heard anyway.

A violin prodigy can play in a symphony at age 15 without one second of college training. A 10-year-old actor can get nominated for an Oscar. For that matter, a tennis pro can play in the U.S. Open at 16 without even thinking about college.

But the NFL monopoly is allowed to require its athletes to spend three years in its "minor league." Seems pretty un-American and un-free-market to me.

Now, what Bayless is proposing is a whole different discussion.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 09:17:22 AM
The NFL is a monopoly. In fact, it was ruled so in a court of law in the USFL trial - even though damages were only $1, it doesn't invalidate the ruling. If you want to earn money playing football in the United States, you have little choice but to kowtow to the monopoly. Its requirement that an athlete spend three years in college is arbitrary, unnecessary and self-serving. I would like to see some athletes fight it in court; the problem is that the deep-pocketed NFL would cause so many delays in any legal proceeding that the athlete would be at least a college junior by the time he'd get heard anyway.


Maurice Clarett fought it in the courts and he lost. 
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 09:20:16 AM

Maurice Clarett fought it in the courts and he lost.  

Clarett Won in lower court, narrowly reversed on appeal.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 09:24:10 AM
In a free-market society, these people are free to pursue their professions of choice without the requirement of a college degree. Some choose to study acting, singing, violin and dance, but the professional powers-that-be who control the purse strings do not require such study. Nor do they place arbitrary age limits on the pursuit of the profession.


Actually, in many places, you have to be a member of the American Federation of Musicians to play in the major orchestras, on Broadway, etc.  

In New York, they require you to be 21 to be a full member of this union.  Very similar to the agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA.

Now of course you don't have to be a member of the union to play side gigs and the like.  But age restrictions on union membership aren't as uncommon as you think.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 09:24:39 AM
Clarett Won in lower court, narrowly reversed on appeal.

If by "narrowly" you mean "unanimously," you would be right.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 09:28:18 AM
If by "narrowly" you mean "unanimously," you would be right.

2/05/2014 @ 8:55AM 970 views
The NFL Age Requirement Was Briefly 'Sacked' Ten Years Ago Today

http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/02/05/the-nfl-age-requirement-was-briefly-sacked-ten-years-ago-today/

Ten years ago today, the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York ruled that the National Football League’s age requirement violated Section 1 of the Sherman Act.

This decision led both Ohio State University sophomore Maurice Clarett and University of Southern California sophomore Mike Williams to declare for the 2004 NFL draft.  It also led to a vehement appeal by the National Football League, and the filing of amicus briefs on the NFL’s behalf by the National Basketball Association, National Hockey League, and even the National Collegiate Athletic Association.

Although the district court’s decision in Clarett v. NFL was later reversed on appeal by Hon. Sonia Sotomayor (then, serving on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit), the decision still marked a watershed moment in sports law history as, for a brief moment, it called into doubt the NFL’s age/education requirement.

The 2004 challenge to the NFL’s age requirement received about as much attention as any sports law case in recent history.

The plaintiff, Maurice Clarett, had rushed for a record-setting 1,237 yards and 18 touchdowns the previous year as a freshman at Ohio State University.  However, Clarett was declared ineligible to play college football as a sophomore based on accusations that he had received improper benefits from boosters in violation of the NCAA rules.

Wanting to continue to play football on some level, Clarett hired attorney Alan Milstein to represent him in a legal challenge against the NFL age requirement.  To help him with this challenge, Milstein then brought aboard current University of New Hampshire sports law professor Michael McCann, who at the time was a newly minted attorney.

Under Milstein and McCann’s guidance, Clarett filed an antitrust claim in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York that argued the NFL’s league-wide age requirement served as a form of illegal group boycott.

In response, the NFL argued that the league’s age restraint was exempt from antitrust scrutiny because it was a topic eligible for collective bargaining and thus was subject only to review under labor law.

After reviewing party briefs and hearing oral arguments, the U.S. District Court decided in favor of Clarett.  Judge Shira Scheindlin penned a decision filled with football analogies, and including the famous line that the NFL age requirement “must be sacked.”

As a result, both Clarett and Williams declared their eligibility for the 2004 NFL draft.

Nevertheless, Clarett’s legal victory was short-lived, as the decision was reversed on appeal by a three judge panel that included now Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor.

As a result, neither Maurice Clarett nor Mike Williams were ultimately allowed to enter the NFL that season.  Making matters worse, the NCAA also denied Williams the opportunity to return to college football.

The NCAA’s internal review process concluded that lost his collegiate eligibility when he relied on the district court decision in Clarett, hired an agent, and had declared for the NFL draft.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 09:30:55 AM
...a and now the NCAA wants the age restrictions removed


College Sports Goes on the Offensive

Colleges Push Pros to Change Their Draft Rules
Ben Cohen and Rachel Bachman
Oct. 1, 2013 11:12 p.m. ET

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303643304579109732901549934

As the NCAA faces the greatest existential peril in its history and scrambles for fundamental reforms by next summer, its power brokers are floating a radical solution for saving college sports: expanding professional sports.

NCAA president Mark Emmert recently raised the idea of allowing athletes to go pro straight out of high school instead of effectively forcing them to attend college. NFL rules currently require football players to wait three years after graduating high school, and the NBA restricts draft eligibility to those who are 19 and one year removed from high school.

Last week, Big Ten Conference commissioner Jim Delany echoed Emmert: "Why is it our job to be minor leagues for professional sports?" he said.

Other commissioners of major conferences offered their support in interviews this week with The Wall Street Journal. Big 12 Conference commissioner Bob Bowlsby said he was "in complete agreement" with those statements. "I don't think it makes any sense to force kids to go to college who don't want an education," he said.

As other NCAA reform options are considered, like adding a $2,000 or $3,000 stipend to cover the full cost of attendance for scholarship athletes or putting money in a trust fund they can access after graduation, the one proposal that is off the table is pay for play. NCAA officials instead are trying to steer athletes who are primarily interested in pro careers straight to the NFL and NBA—or at least putting pressure on the leagues to act.

Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott said he and his peers' recent outspokenness on the issue stems in part from "a brimming confidence in our ability to make significant change." Last year those commissioners enacted college football's first-ever playoff, which launches next season. Before, "people in college sports have been resigned to say, 'There's nothing we can do about it,'" he said. "Myself and others are not willing to accept that."

Creating alternative paths for prospective pro athletes isn't a novel idea. University presidents are academics by training, and intercollegiate athletics' $100 million budgets and potential for cheating often represent universities' biggest headaches.

"You put them in a room and pull down the shades, and most university presidents would love to find a way to spin it off," Michigan president emeritus James Duderstadt said.

College bigwigs are pitching this idea at a time when the NCAA is under legal assault and the subject of public debate over the prospect of compensating college athletes beyond their scholarships. A federal judge in Oakland, Calif., is considering whether to grant class-action status to former UCLA basketball player Ed O'Bannon's lawsuit the alleges the NCAA conspired with its business partners to set the price of a college athlete's name, image and likeness at zero. Plaintiffs are seeking a slice of the NCAA's and its member schools' billions in licensing and television-rights money. The NCAA has said that it neither attempts to profit from athletes' likenesses nor instructs its partners to do so.

To be sure, only the NFL and NBA can change their eligibility rules, and they haven't shown any signs that they might. An NFL spokesman said the league wasn't considering changing its draft policy. The NFL Players Association didn't respond to requests for comment. Neither the NBA nor the National Basketball Players Association responded to requests for comment.

The NFL's requirements are stricter than those for the NHL and Major League Baseball, which generally allow athletes to enter the draft after high school. NCAA executives want to model a football policy after baseball's: High-school players are allowed to enter the MLB draft, but if they choose a four-year college, they must stay through their junior year or until they turn 21.

Until the 2006 draft, high-school basketball players could jump straight to the NBA, as LeBron James and Kobe Bryant did. The NBA's current arrangement—in which players can go pro after one year of college—is bemoaned by even the college coaches who use it to their advantage. Scott said that the one-and-done pattern "makes a mockery of the student-athlete" and that halting it is one of commissioners' "major priorities" for the next few years. "I don't mind them turning pro out of high school," Scott said, "but if they come to college, they should stay for three years."

Some legal experts believe pro leagues may be compelled to act. The NFL lost an antitrust lawsuit brought by former Ohio State star Maurice Clarett, who challenged the NFL's three-year window of ineligibility. But a federal appeals court that included future Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor overturned the decision in 2004 on the grounds that the rule was collectively bargained with the NFLPA.

Legal analysts say a similar case could win in another appeals court, like the Eighth Circuit, where the case law takes a harsher view of rules that prohibit certain groups of people from gaining employment. The ruling hasn't deterred Alan Milstein, Clarett's attorney in that case. With the right player—a sure top-10 pick too young to legally play in the NFL—Milstein believes he could win a lawsuit against the NFL.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 09:31:20 AM
OK thanks Heisenberg.  As I said, it was unanimously overturned on appeal.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 09:36:02 AM
OK thanks Heisenberg.  As I said, it was unanimously overturned on appeal.

See the last two highlighted paragraphs above ... you cite it as a "perfectly legal" law as if it has the same moral authority as something written in the bible (think: the ten commandments). 

Instead it is probably best described as Jay Bee's favorite movie genre ... "barely legal."
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 09:53:07 AM
You are the master at using nuance to never concede you were wrong.

You said it was "narrowly" overturned on appeal.  It was unanimously overturned.  It is legal to discriminate by age, by mandating a minimum entry age, if it is part of a collectively bargained agreement.  The notion has been challenged in court and it has been upheld.

Sorry if the adjective "perfectly" annoyed you.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: NersEllenson on July 27, 2014, 09:56:19 AM
I think a more apples-to-apples comparison with athletes are performers.

Concert musicians, actors, singers, dancers, etc.

In a free-market society, these people are free to pursue their professions of choice without the requirement of a college degree. Some choose to study acting, singing, violin and dance, but the professional powers-that-be who control the purse strings do not require such study. Nor do they place arbitrary age limits on the pursuit of the profession.

The NFL is a monopoly. In fact, it was ruled so in a court of law in the USFL trial - even though damages were only $1, it doesn't invalidate the ruling. If you want to earn money playing football in the United States, you have little choice but to kowtow to the monopoly. Its requirement that an athlete spend three years in college is arbitrary, unnecessary and self-serving. I would like to see some athletes fight it in court; the problem is that the deep-pocketed NFL would cause so many delays in any legal proceeding that the athlete would be at least a college junior by the time he'd get heard anyway.

A violin prodigy can play in a symphony at age 15 without one second of college training. A 10-year-old actor can get nominated for an Oscar. For that matter, a tennis pro can play in the U.S. Open at 16 without even thinking about college.


But the NFL monopoly is allowed to require its athletes to spend three years in its "minor league." Seems pretty un-American and un-free-market to me.

Now, what Bayless is proposing is a whole different discussion.

Thanks - this was the point I was trying to make.  There is nothing that prohibits a talented academic kid from passing through school quickly and earning their degree/postgraduate education and becoming trained in the skill - medicine, law, accounting, dental hygeine, whatever you want it to be - that would essentially road block them from beginning to practice their chosen professions.

Furthermore, it is so incredibly hard to be considered elite and world class at those professions right out of the gate.  Not the case with athletes, entertainers, performers.  Football is a vey unique case in that it is a game that exposes you to the highest risk of debilitating injury, that could easily end your ability to perform at a world class level in an instant.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Dawson Rental on July 27, 2014, 10:06:42 AM
I don't know what the overall ratio would be, but for every dollar a booster gave to a player there would be a sizeable portion that would be reduced to the school.  I would guess something like for every dollar maybe that is sixty less cents the school would get from a booster.  That would hit the schools pretty hard.


I agree that there would be such an effect on overall donations.  It's tricky to calculate because donations given over to recruiting star athletes should increase a school's athletic success which almost always leads to an increased pool of alumni making donations to their school and even increased donations form those already donating as a result of increased school visibility/pride.

Ultimately, it's a choice made by the school involved to be a participant in big time athletics.    In other words, it's a business decision to be made by a university that has decided to participate in the big time collegiate sports business.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 10:37:06 AM
But the reaction to an overly regulated system isn't complete anarchy.  I am all for enhanced benefits, and I don't care one lick if scholarships for Olympic sports are diminished as a result.  I am also not opposed to athletes cashing in on their likeness in some way.

But just turning everyone loose I don't think is the answer.

I'm also not going to buy into Chico's hyperbole that its the end of the world if athletes get more money either.

I agree that anarchy is not the answer.

Thought if the "let the booster pay" system was in place ...

Booster pays a recruit to go to Rutgers.  Mike Rice is the had coach at Rutgers.  That recruit (now a player) is abused by Rice which in part throwing balls at head.  

Rice is fired and abused player wants to sue.  Question, who does he sue?  The booster than paid him or the University?  

Of course reality is he sues both but the booster bears some liability, no?  And if the boosters pay, don't they get some say in who is the head coach and AD?  Of course they do now but I'm suggesting if they pay, won't the boosters demand a committee of boosters to pick the AD and head coach? Yes the University president could be part of the committee but he would be one voice, not the voice?

Answer would be for the University to put together a player payment fund and let boosters contribute to it, not let booster run off unsupervised doing it themselves.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MarquetteDano on July 27, 2014, 10:50:39 AM
It's tricky to calculate because donations given over to recruiting star athletes should increase a school's athletic success which almost always leads to an increased pool of alumni making donations to their school and even increased donations form those already donating as a result of increased school visibility/pride.

I am not sure it would work out this way.  It is a zero sum game, as there will be losers and winners.  One university may gain while another loses.  The total of the two may see less money than they do now as a whole.

Keep in mind of the tax man, too.  Right now a booster can give $100,000 to a university and the after-tax cost to him/her is approximately $65,000-$70,000.

If you give to an individual your yearly limit is $14,000 with no tax advantages.  If you give $100,000 to a player the cost is actually around $150,000, depending on the state's inheritance rules.  Unless you want to trigger one-time exemption gifts which can limit monies to your heirs.

If you give to university pool (and the U pays the player) you still get the $65,000 after tax advantage but the value of that money will really be around $70k because that player will get taxed.

Either way, the tax man will get more money than now and the university will see less.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 27, 2014, 11:33:30 AM
Yep.  And add teachers, dental hygieinsts and plenty of other occupations - which don't determine whether people live or die - that have minimum requirements before you can make a living.  A huge portion of our economy is filled with people who had to go to a certain amount of schooling and pass various tests to be eligible for their occupation.

Well and good. Except that it has nothing to do with Sports. You guys come up with all of these professions where the state wants to be sure that people are actually qualified. That is not necessary in Sports. The restrictions in sports are not about making sure that people are qualified. They are strictly arbitrary age restrictions.

I think most of us are adult enough to realize everything is not the same.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
Thanks - this was the point I was trying to make.  There is nothing that prohibits a talented academic kid from passing through school quickly and earning their degree/postgraduate education and becoming trained in the skill - medicine, law, accounting, dental hygeine, whatever you want it to be - that would essentially road block them from beginning to practice their chosen professions.

Furthermore, it is so incredibly hard to be considered elite and world class at those professions right out of the gate.  Not the case with athletes, entertainers, performers.  Football is a vey unique case in that it is a game that exposes you to the highest risk of debilitating injury, that could easily end your ability to perform at a world class level in an instant.

Except there is no firm age requirement for the NFL or NBA.  If a person is extremely talented and is able to complete college by the age of 15 (lets say just like the prodigy's in the other fields).  Then he/she is immediately eligible for the NBA or NFL draft regardless of age.

So the NFL/NBA is identical to all the others, they just have to meet the minimum requirements, either by reaching a certain age (not afforded to the other disciplines) or through meeting the minimum requirements.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 12:06:28 PM
Except there is no firm age requirement for the NFL or NBA.  If a person is extremely talented and is able to complete college by the age of 15 (lets say just like the prodigy's in the other fields).  Then he/she is immediately eligible for the NBA or NFL draft regardless of age.

So the NFL/NBA is identical to all the others, they just have to meet the minimum requirements, either by reaching a certain age (not afforded to the other disciplines) or through meeting the minimum requirements.


Actually, in the case of the NBA, I believe that you have to turn 19 during the year the draft is held to be eligible regardless if you meet other criteria.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Boozemon Barro on July 27, 2014, 12:06:38 PM
There are lots of professions with restrictions.  I could study for years to be an expert in medicine, but not want to pay for medical school.  I would still be banned from ever practicing that trade, even if I was far superior from my independent training.

I could become an expert in the legal field and publish article after article in legal journals, but would be banned from practicing law unless I went to law school.

I could independently study scientific fields to become a world renowned expert, but at almost all prestigious universities would not be allowed to be a professor without a PhD.

These are all cases where the profession sets requirements for their field.  Much like the NFL sets a 3-year requirement.  In all those other disciplines, while you hone your craft and prove yourself, you make a tiny fraction (an instead often pay) to develop the requirements.

These kids have 0 value at this point until they play for a college.  The spotlight that gives them creates great value in some cases.

If they are a freak of nature and do have value they can go play elsewhere (aka SMU basketball player).  If there aren't alternative leagues it is because they are not marketable or profitable ventures and thus, the players actually do not have value.

The first two are highly specialized practices that have laws against what you described. If you practice medicine without a license, you will be charged with a crime.

The only thing illegal about a booster giving a recruit cash is maybe gift tax evasion which would immediately go away if everything was opened up.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 12:16:11 PM

Actually, in the case of the NBA, I believe that you have to turn 19 during the year the draft is held to be eligible regardless if you meet other criteria.

I thought so too, but looked it up and apparently they also have the caveat that if you have exhausted your eligibility (through participating not accepting money etc), then you are eligible.

section 1(b)(ii)
(A) The player has graduated from a four-year college or university in the United States (or is to graduate in the calendar year in which the Draft is held) and has no remaining intercollegiate basketball eligibility;
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 12:19:17 PM
I thought so too, but looked it up and apparently they also have the caveat that if you have exhausted your eligibility (through participating not accepting money etc), then you are eligible.

section 1(b)(ii)
(A) The player has graduated from a four-year college or university in the United States (or is to graduate in the calendar year in which the Draft is held) and has no remaining intercollegiate basketball eligibility;


Yeah I read the same thing and thought the age limit took precedence.  No biggie because I doubt the two rules would ever come in conflict!
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 12:20:33 PM
We have game fixing now.  We have a version of holdouts now (see ReggieSmith and McKay).

The current system is broken now.  This might make it better.


Or it might make it 10X worse, I'm going with that view.   There are legitimate arguments to be made to "fix the system", that doesn't mean destroying the entire thing and making matters worse.

Can you list the massive amount of game fixing we have going on right now....or how about 2 cases in the last 5 years would be fine?  And how is it that Reggie Smith and McKay are the ones holding out?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 12:20:44 PM
The first two are highly specialized practices that have laws against what you described. If you practice medicine without a license, you will be charged with a crime.

The only thing illegal about a booster giving a recruit cash is maybe gift tax evasion which would immediately go away if everything was opened up.

Those laws evolved as a protective measure to stop people from entering the ranks without attending medical school.  Initially adopted by professional organizations.

Neither of those fields even required a degree for a long time, but were rather taught as apprenticeships.  The degrees came as a measure of Universities realizing they could profit from the organizations requiring a degree.  They then had to institute fancy new degrees (DM and JD), because it was required to have a doctorate level degree to teach at a  University.

So, they are not much different than professional organizations now (NFLPA, NBAPA) instituting new requirements, that benefit the universities.  As they evolve they may also then have laws (say to protect from concussions etc), reinforcing the organizational rules.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
The source of my knowledge of the SEC under the table scheme is thinly based.  It's based upon the article posted here a while back called something like "The Ten Rules for Paying College Athletes" which was discussed in its own thread.

I recall it, an article about bag men on SB Nation.  Whether any of it was true, 2% true, 50% true, who knows.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 12:27:46 PM
Why is it required that the football and basketball teams pay for all the non revenue sports?  Is the business school required to pay for the English department?  Is the engineering program required to pay for the philosophy department?

Schools will make a determination if the want more than two sports teams (football and basketball).  My guess is the Olympic sports will be fine.

You would be dead wrong.  I wrote a thesis paper on this in grad school around Title IX and it was already impacting male Olympic sports back then in terms of performances at the Olympics and elsewhere (world championships, etc) due to limited opportunities.  That was 20+ years ago.  It most certainly continues to have an impact.

How can it not have an impact when some sports will have to be dropped in these scenarios you guys keep coming up with?  There is no choice but to drop some sports if some of these scenarios come to fruition.  Thanks for quoting Sultan for me...glad he doesn't care one bit about Olympic sports...plenty of young men and women out in this country do as a means to get an education, represent their school, later their nation...I guess that's why he doesn't care one iota about them.

Your question above, all depends on how the P + L works.  At some schools does the Engineering department help pay for the Nursing school....you bet they do.  At other schools, depending how the accounting is done, no. 
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 27, 2014, 12:37:16 PM
Well and good. Except that it has nothing to do with Sports. You guys come up with all of these professions where the state wants to be sure that people are actually qualified. That is not necessary in Sports. The restrictions in sports are not about making sure that people are qualified. They are strictly arbitrary age restrictions.

I think most of us are adult enough to realize everything is not the same.

I was responding to Ners' comment - pointing out that there are plenty of professions that prevent you from marketing your skill when you might otherwise be paid to do so.  He did not limit his comment to sports. 
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 01:03:04 PM
You would be dead wrong.  I wrote a thesis paper on this in grad school around Title IX and it was already impacting male Olympic sports back then in terms of performances at the Olympics and elsewhere (world championships, etc) due to limited opportunities.  That was 20+ years ago.  It most certainly continues to have an impact.

How can it not have an impact when some sports will have to be dropped in these scenarios you guys keep coming up with?  There is no choice but to drop some sports if some of these scenarios come to fruition.  Thanks for quoting Sultan for me...glad he doesn't care one bit about Olympic sports...plenty of young men and women out in this country do as a means to get an education, represent their school, later their nation...I guess that's why he doesn't care one iota about them.

Your question above, all depends on how the P + L works.  At some schools does the Engineering department help pay for the Nursing school....you bet they do.  At other schools, depending how the accounting is done, no.  

I get it that Title IX reduced Men's Olympic sports and therefore Men's performances in the Olympics.  Makes perfect sense.

But you're making a HUGE leap that paying football players will result in less money for the Athletic departments and they will respond by cutting even more Men's Olympic sports.

Formalize the pay, shift some of the costs to the player (now that the player is getting paid, they can pay for some things, like tutors), and beg boosters to donate for Olympic sports and I think things will work out just fine.

Two Examples ....

The United States Tennis Association (USTA) makes over $200 million/year, most of it from the US (tennis) open alone.  Donate $20 million/year to the NCAA (or some other like organization) to distribute to College tennis teams.  Get the tennis equipment manufacturers to do the same.

Ditto above with the United States Golf Association (USGA).  How about asking the Augusta country club, that also has zillions, to help pay to develop college golf?

Once the rules are gone, just have to think creatively.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 01:08:48 PM
Well and good. Except that it has nothing to do with Sports. You guys come up with all of these professions where the state wants to be sure that people are actually qualified. That is not necessary in Sports. The restrictions in sports are not about making sure that people are qualified. They are strictly arbitrary age restrictions.

I think most of us are adult enough to realize everything is not the same.

I actually disagree on them not being the same.  Training is training.

But to appease you there are age restrictions for:

Equipment operation, truck driving, bartending, police officer (21, 25 in chicago), working on a cruise-ship (21), flight-attendant, (criminal justice workers) etc, etc.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 01:10:53 PM
I actually disagree on them not being the same.  Training is training.

But to appease you there are age restrictions for:

Equipment operation, truck driving, bartending, police officer (21, 25 in chicago), working on a cruise-ship (21), flight-attendant, (criminal justice workers) etc, etc.

Are these age restrictions the results of Government laws or part of a private agreement (like a collective bargaining agreement)?  I think this makes a difference.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 01:30:28 PM
Are these age restrictions the results of Government laws or part of a private agreement (like a collective bargaining agreement)?  I think this makes a difference.

Most age restrictions are not government law based, rather they stem from the perceived lack of maturity in younger people.  This leads in some cases to increases on insurance.  Some institutions/companies decide the insurance cost is not worth the hiring of founder people (so in essence a private agreement).

That is the same origin of the age restrictions in sports.  A general perceived lack of maturity that renders them too much of a risk.  A risk they are not willing to take for financial considerations.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 01:35:03 PM
Berg, depends on the school.

FAU runs a deficit just in football alone. 

Florida Atlantic Univ.           Revenue        Expense              Profit
Football                         $2,280,834.00  $4,610,870.00        -$2,330,036.00
Men’s Basketball                 $379,745.00    $1,205,402.00        -$825,657.00
Women’s Basketball               $121,177.00    $922,597.00          -$801,420.00
Other Sports – Men’s (8)(303)    $340,689.00    $1,663,949.00        -$1,323,260.00
Other Sports – Women’s (8)(175)  $432,511.00    $2,603,570.00       -$2,171,059.00
                                                                     -$7,451,432.00


Ohio U is a bit different:

Ohio University                    Revenue         Expense          Profit
Football                          $7,467,896.00    $7,385,482.00    $82,414.00
Men’s Basketball                  $2,614,831.00    $2,327,125.00    $287,706.00
Women’s Basketball                $1,149,723.00    $1,427,734.00   -$278,011.00
Other Sports – Men’s (6)(245)     $1,884,051.00    $1,928,829.00   -$44,778.00
Other Sports – Women’s (8)(253)    $4,363,211.00   $4,732,698.00   -$369,487.00
                                                                    -$322,156.00



Then you look at someone like Florida or Penn State, and they clear $30M from football so it's another world.  Bigger stadiums, bigger tv contracts, etc
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 27, 2014, 01:43:49 PM
Statistics tell the entire story. They could never be manipulated to bolster an argument ;D 

If you only show one side of something, it's very easy to make a point.

Let's all pretend that having good sports teams doesn't mean more money from boosters and alumni. Cuz... you know, it's not in Chico's statistics.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
Lots of interesting facts and debates in this post.

Say what you want about Bayless, but he does have a knack of stirring up debate and controversy, which is his job.

I got to know Bayless fairly well when we were both in Chicago. We weren't what Sid Hartman would call close personal friends, but we had decent conversations and he was always very nice to me.

After my wife and I went to Topolobampo, the fantastic (and extremely expensive) gourmet Mexican restaurant operated by his brother, Rick, I mentioned to Skip how much we loved the meal. Skip barely grunted. I later learned that the two famous Bayless boys do not get along, with Skip supposedly quite jealous of Rick's well-deserved fame.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 03:16:02 PM
The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to be the one that allows this opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?

That's not their mission.   Why aren't those clamoring to destroy college athletics and ultimately reducing opportunities for men and women in other sports as well as revenue sports....why aren't you pushing to have a real minor leagues started by those professional sports?  It shouldn't be the NCAA's job to change their model, change what they do for these edge cases.

If a kid doesn't want a free education...fine...go to the minor leagues and get paid.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 03:26:47 PM
The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to be the one that allows this opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?

That's not their mission.   Why aren't those clamoring to destroy college athletics and ultimately reducing opportunities for men and women in other sports as well as revenue sports....why aren't you pushing to have a real minor leagues started by those professional sports?  It shouldn't be the NCAA's job to change their model, change what they do for these edge cases.

If a kid doesn't want a free education...fine...go to the minor leagues and get paid.

Correcting above ...

The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to deny opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: brandx on July 27, 2014, 03:26:58 PM
The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to be the one that allows this opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?

That's not their mission.   Why aren't those clamoring to destroy college athletics and ultimately reducing opportunities for men and women in other sports as well as revenue sports....why aren't you pushing to have a real minor leagues started by those professional sports?  It shouldn't be the NCAA's job to change their model, change what they do for these edge cases.

If a kid doesn't want a free education...fine...go to the minor leagues and get paid.

That pesky strawman attacks again. No one is clamoring to destroy college athletics.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2014, 03:54:40 PM
That pesky strawman attacks again. No one is clamoring to destroy college athletics.


Exactly.

And I sure would love it if somebody from the NCAA honestly articulated what the organization's "job" is vis-a-vis being the minor league for the NFL in particular but also for other pro sports. Of course, if anybody did that, he or she probably would not be working for the NCAA shortly thereafter!
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 04:27:49 PM
Correcting above ...

The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to deny opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?


Simple, it is not their mandate.  Their mandate is to administer championships, enforce rules, execute legislation that its members pass, etc, etc.  They have over 1000 schools, multiple divisions in which to do this.  They were never meant to be a professional league, so why do you want them to be when there are professional leagues already out there?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 04:30:05 PM
Exactly.

And I sure would love it if somebody from the NCAA honestly articulated what the organization's "job" is vis-a-vis being the minor league for the NFL in particular but also for other pro sports. Of course, if anybody did that, he or she probably would not be working for the NCAA shortly thereafter!

Are you suggesting the NCAA was setup to be the minor leagues for pro football or pro basketball, or are you suggesting that the NFL and the NBA don't want to invest to create such leagues because the college structure exists. 

The distinction is important, I look forward to your answer.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 27, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
Correcting above ...

The fundamental question for me remains, why is it the NCAA's job to deny opportunity for these elite of the elite to earn money?


It is not.  If it was truly that marketable and profitable to run a league (football or basketball) with players that are 18-22 and not ready yet for the NBA or NFL, then someone would have created it.  Heck, they would instantly be competitive for the best talent, as the NCAA offers no money, beyond a stipend.

The reason it does not exist is that it is not financially lucrative, the audience base for NCAA stems from affiliation with colleges, that establishes loyalty.  Outside of that these players have no value.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2014, 04:41:19 PM
Are you suggesting the NCAA was setup to be the minor leagues for pro football or pro basketball, or are you suggesting that the NFL and the NBA don't want to invest to create such leagues because the college structure exists. 

The distinction is important, I look forward to your answer.

I am suggesting that the NFL and other pro leagues do not want to invest in creating the kind of minor league system baseball and hockey have. I also am suggesting that the NCAA has willingly become a partner in this.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GGGG on July 27, 2014, 04:47:51 PM
I am suggesting that the NFL and other pro leagues do not want to invest in creating the kind of minor league system baseball and hockey have. I also am suggesting that the NCAA has willingly become a partner in this.


I would say that the colleges and their conferences have.  I don't think the NCAA as an organization has done so.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 04:49:24 PM
I am suggesting that the NFL and other pro leagues do not want to invest in creating the kind of minor league system baseball and hockey have. I also am suggesting that the NCAA has willingly become a partner in this.

I agree with point one, please expand on point two how they have become a willing partner in this. 

The NCAA tournament money from television is about quantity of games and great stories, not about the abilities of a few elite players that could be playing pro.  That contract would exist whether a handful of these kids are in the minor leagues or not.  Football stadiums have been filled for 60+ years at the college level, long before we reached today's situation.  What is the NCAA supposed to do, force a minor league system on those entities?  How is that in the NCAA's control?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 27, 2014, 06:07:06 PM
I agree with point one, please expand on point two how they have become a willing partner in this. 

The NCAA tournament money from television is about quantity of games and great stories, not about the abilities of a few elite players that could be playing pro.  That contract would exist whether a handful of these kids are in the minor leagues or not.  Football stadiums have been filled for 60+ years at the college level, long before we reached today's situation.  What is the NCAA supposed to do, force a minor league system on those entities?  How is that in the NCAA's control?

C'mon CBB, you cannot believe this!

The best teams get all the attention and ratings.  And the best teams have the best players.  And those players are Pro caliber.

Otherwise, D1AA, D2 and D3 (or FCS) would attract the same attention as D1 (or FBS) and that is absolutely not the case.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2014, 06:46:36 PM
C'mon CBB, you cannot believe this!

The best teams get all the attention and ratings.  And the best teams have the best players.  And those players are Pro caliber.

Otherwise, D1AA, D2 and D3 (or FCS) would attract the same attention as D1 (or FBS) and that is absolutely not the case.

I agree with this totally, so thanks for saving me the time! I'm much too busy to keep prattling on about this subject ... gotta go finish watching the first season of House of Cards!
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: 77ncaachamps on July 27, 2014, 08:34:21 PM
Skip Bayless is back in the news.

To him, that's #missionaccomplished and #donedeal
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MarquetteDano on July 27, 2014, 09:10:58 PM
It is not.  If it was truly that marketable and profitable to run a league (football or basketball) with players that are 18-22 and not ready yet for the NBA or NFL, then someone would have created it.  Heck, they would instantly be competitive for the best talent, as the NCAA offers no money, beyond a stipend.

The reason it does not exist is that it is not financially lucrative, the audience base for NCAA stems from affiliation with colleges, that establishes loyalty.  Outside of that these players have no value.

Yup.  Summed it up very nicely.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 09:42:47 PM
C'mon CBB, you cannot believe this!

The best teams get all the attention and ratings.  And the best teams have the best players.  And those players are Pro caliber.

Otherwise, D1AA, D2 and D3 (or FCS) would attract the same attention as D1 (or FBS) and that is absolutely not the case.

Absolutely. As I've said many times here, I have known Mike Aresco for years and he is the one that brokered the deals on the television side for CBS.  When I ran Mega March Madness for Directv we would talk of what is the key to the tournament, what drives viewership and subscribers.  The story lines are the upsets, how far certain teams go, but the players are interchangeable.  That doesn't mean they don't have to be quality players, of course they do.  But when Duke goes down in the first game, is everyone turning off the sets because Jabari Parker is out?  Absolutely not.

Don't confuse my comments to suggest the talent doesn't have to be high, it does.  However, the viewership is not dictated by INDIVIDUAL talent per se, but the collection of it.  Teams get bumped all the time with great individual talent, or even great team talent, but the ratings hold.  

The best teams DO NOT get all the ratings, by the way.  A number of them do, but because of how the tournament is scheduled on television there is a bit of self selection going on, but doesn't always ring true.  

Be careful of just looking at the Final Four ratings, too.  It's not just the Final Four, though even a Final Four with Wichita State did extremely well, highest in 8 years.  This past Final Four with "ratings juggernaut" Wisconsin, higher still.  Then go look at some of the earlier round games.  Sure, Kentucky, etc pulls in high ratings, but so do many other games, especially those with great upsets.  

If you do wish to use only championship games, I'd point you to Butler v Duke rating of 24 compared to UNC vs MSU 17.6 separated by one year.  A Kentucky Utah did way better than a UCLA Florida.  It's not always about the heavyweights, having one there is huge but the other can be several notches down because people want to see the surprise upsets as well.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2014, 09:44:41 PM
I agree with this totally, so thanks for saving me the time! I'm much too busy to keep prattling on about this subject ... gotta go finish watching the first season of House of Cards!

Well, you're wrong...totally...time saved.  LOL
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: jesmu84 on July 27, 2014, 10:35:14 PM
So if the lower NCAA divisions had their bball tournaments hosted on CBS/TBS/etc, they'd get the same ratings as the D1 tournament does? Is that what you're saying, CBB?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 28, 2014, 12:13:22 AM
So if the lower NCAA divisions had their bball tournaments hosted on CBS/TBS/etc, they'd get the same ratings as the D1 tournament does? Is that what you're saying, CBB?

He's not saying that.  But if you swapped the players from the lower divisions and the upper division's you'd still have similar ratings for the NCAA D1 tournament.  It is the team names and affiliations that matter, the players less so.  Some fans may leave, but the bulk of them would stay.  For the exact same reason that we are fans of MU when they are good, and in the past when they were not.

And the ratings for the lower divisions would still be low.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MarquetteDano on July 28, 2014, 06:45:52 AM
So if the lower NCAA divisions had their bball tournaments hosted on CBS/TBS/etc, they'd get the same ratings as the D1 tournament does? Is that what you're saying, CBB?

That is probably not the right question.  The reason why lower NCAA divisions get poor ratings is because of alum and fan support, not just the talent.  A better question is if you swapped players from division 1 with division 2 for a year, which would get better tv ratings?  My bet is on division 1.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: CTWarrior on July 28, 2014, 01:42:39 PM
I agree with this totally, so thanks for saving me the time! I'm much too busy to keep prattling on about this subject ... gotta go finish watching the first season of House of Cards!

I disagree totally.  If there were minor leagues in basketball and football where all the elite players went, college football and basketball would still be far, far, far more popular than the minor leagues.   People love good ol' State U or their alma mater. 
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on July 28, 2014, 01:53:39 PM
Skip Bayless is back in the news.

To him, that's #missionaccomplished and #donedeal

Now this is an interesting topic.

Skip was a reporter/columnist/journalist/media personality presumably making a good living. Then in about 2003? (not sure on exact timing), he started making more and more outlandish comments/commentary, where he himself became part of the story.

Now, professionally, I assume this approach has made him a good amount of $$, but it has also cost him any/all credibility he ever had. Now he's a joke, just trolling for clicks. We all know it.

So, why did he do it? Money?

If you were a successful journalist, would you turn "full heel" if it meant a payday from ESPN? Could you live with trying to play that character all of the time and having it ruin any amount of integrity you ever had?

(I don't know if I could do it, even if it was for a boatload of cash.)
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Tugg Speedman on July 28, 2014, 02:33:19 PM
Now this is an interesting topic.

Skip was a reporter/columnist/journalist/media personality presumably making a good living. Then in about 2003? (not sure on exact timing), he started making more and more outlandish comments/commentary, where he himself became part of the story.

Now, professionally, I assume this approach has made him a good amount of $$, but it has also cost him any/all credibility he ever had. Now he's a joke, just trolling for clicks. We all know it.

So, why did he do it? Money?

If you were a successful journalist, would you turn "full heel" if it meant a payday from ESPN? Could you live with trying to play that character all of the time and having it ruin any amount of integrity you ever had?

(I don't know if I could do it, even if it was for a boatload of cash.)

To satisfy his ego.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 28, 2014, 02:45:53 PM
I disagree totally.  If there were minor leagues in basketball and football where all the elite players went, college football and basketball would still be far, far, far more popular than the minor leagues.   People love good ol' State U or their alma mater.  

+1
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MU82 on July 28, 2014, 03:09:34 PM
Well, you're wrong...totally...time saved.  LOL

It must be such a lonely feeling to be so right about so much so often.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on July 28, 2014, 07:41:16 PM
It must be such a lonely feeling to be so right about so much so often.

Should have used teal by me apparently.  Thought it was obvious based on post I responded to.  Oh well. 

At any rate, the NCAA tournament popularity is based on the teams that play, name on the front of the uniforms as well as the David vs Goliath stories.  This is why CBS, Turner signed such a long term deal with the NCAA....it is a formula that sustains itself.  The quality of the games is important, which is to say you can't just throw DIII talent out there, nor did anyone suggest that.  However, if 5% to 10% of the elite players weren't playing, maybe more, the ratings would still be there...the value and entertainment still there. 
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 29, 2014, 09:14:43 AM
The reason it does not exist is that it is not financially lucrative, the audience base for NCAA stems from affiliation with colleges, that establishes loyalty.  Outside of that these players have no value.

I think that this is a very interesting -- and true -- comment.  I also think it can be used to support either side of the argument.  Personally, I believe that this is a strong justification for not paying players.  The loyalty (i.e., the money) is based upon the institution, not the players.  Sure, alums want their schools to be the best and have the best players.  But, I believe that if a minor league was developed for football pulling the cream of the crop, the alums at Alabama, Michigan, OSU, etc. would still fill their stadia and buy jerseys hoping that their alma mater would win the national championship.  I don't really recall people losing interest in NCAA basketball when the best players were going straight to the NBA.  People root for the name on the front of the jersey and I don't think the creation of minor leagues would change that.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on July 29, 2014, 08:35:31 PM
I think that this is a very interesting -- and true -- comment.  I also think it can be used to support either side of the argument.  Personally, I believe that this is a strong justification for not paying players.  The loyalty (i.e., the money) is based upon the institution, not the players.  Sure, alums want their schools to be the best and have the best players.  But, I believe that if a minor league was developed for football pulling the cream of the crop, the alums at Alabama, Michigan, OSU, etc. would still fill their stadia and buy jerseys hoping that their alma mater would win the national championship.  I don't really recall people losing interest in NCAA basketball when the best players were going straight to the NBA.  People root for the name on the front of the jersey and I don't think the creation of minor leagues would change that.
Give me a break. It is about the players....PERIOD. Most Universities are knows on a large scale due to athletics. Get real.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on July 29, 2014, 08:44:22 PM
+1
You are off here. No it would not be my friend.Trust me. Marketing and everything would be totally different. No one would go to games or watch them.

Not on any level.

If one and done's would go to this minor league for two years, like that Kentucky crew last year before they could be a pro no one in the world would care about college sports!

You have to be out of your mind. The tournaments during the year barely sell out anymore as it is. I will debate this until the cows come home because they need this option for guys who do not want to go to school.

No way in the world anyone would go if they had a minor leagues guys could go to get paid for two years over going to college. Fans that think it would be the same are in a bubble.

It would be 'different' but not the same and not as popular. Some have this ideological view of basketball and football but it is about winning and the best players.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 29, 2014, 08:45:28 PM
Give me a break. It is about the players....PERIOD. Most Universities are knows on a large scale due to athletics. Get real.

So if all the MU players had chosen UW and all the UW players had chosen MU, you'd be a Badger fan?  Seriously?

I went to MU and will always be a MU fan, regardless of who plays there.  And if all the MU players had gone to some semi-pro league and lesser players had chosen MU...I'd still be a MU fan.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on July 29, 2014, 08:51:26 PM
No way in the world college basketball or football would be as popular. No way in the world...it would be the end of college athletics.

Not in this day and age. Maybe earlier. But you are living in the past.

Say if all of the McDonald's All Americans or the top 100-15- recruits all went to the so called minor leagues from Scout.com and Rivals instead of college for 2-3 years to get an "education" you mean to honestly tell me that would not hurt the NCAA!?

And you say that the NCAA would be "better off?" Ha ha ha... I disagree my friend. And I bet you any money coaches would leave as well.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 29, 2014, 08:58:02 PM
You are off here. No it would not be my friend.Trust me. Marketing and everything would be totally different. No one would go to games or watch them.

Not on any level.

If one and done's would go to this minor league for two years, like that Kentucky crew last year before they could be a pro no one in the world would care about college sports!

You have to be out of your mind. The tournaments during the year barely sell out anymore as it is. I will debate this until the cows come home because they need this option for guys who do not want to go to school.

No way in the world anyone would go if they had a minor leagues guys could go to get paid for two years over going to college. Fans that think it would be the same are in a bubble.

It would be 'different' but not the same and not as popular. Some have this ideological view of basketball and football but it is about winning and the best players.


uropr

But there is a minor league for the NBA. It's called the NBADL. Franchises move from city to city every year because there is no support. If the top 20 (or whatever) kids go to a minor league or Europe or Kiwi League, the next 20 will get all the accolades (assuming they want to play in college). The 'next 20' will be the most highly recruited kids in the country. It has already been proven --- when there was no age limit, the kids that chose college received a ton of hype (Carmelo Anthony, for example).

If you think there is huge marketability for a league between college and the NBA....you should ask Glenn Rice Jr. He played college and then went d-league and then nba draft. No one followed him in the d-league.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 29, 2014, 08:59:20 PM
No way in the world college basketball or football would be as popular. No way in the world...it would be the end of college athletics.

Not in this day and age. Maybe earlier. But you are living in the past.

Say if all of the McDonald's All Americans or the top 100-15- recruits all went to the so called minor leagues from Scout.com and Rivals instead of college for 2-3 years to get an "education" you mean to honestly tell me that would not hurt the NCAA!?

And you say that the NCAA would be "better off?" Ha ha ha... I disagree my friend. And I bet you any money coaches would leave as well.

The coaches will go where the money is and that will stay in the NCAA regardless of the players.  

My guess is that you are under the age of 20.

I watch MU, because as a kid I used to sit on the floor in the old gym and watch the team practice.  That was before I could even appreciate good basketball.  I grew up with the team, listening to them on the radio often, as they weren't even on TV.  I could not have cared less who was on the team, I would find a favorite.  Often the team sucked, but that didn't matter.

My scenario is by far the common scenario.  All fans like myself would continue to watch the teams play even if it got so hard to find players that they had to merge the men's and women's teams.  

Would some fans leave…probably, but I bet you they'd be back after their friends (who are more like me) keep talking about the season.  
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 29, 2014, 09:00:30 PM
No way in the world college basketball or football would be as popular. No way in the world...it would be the end of college athletics.

Not in this day and age. Maybe earlier. But you are living in the past.

Say if all of the McDonald's All Americans or the top 100-15- recruits all went to the so called minor leagues from Scout.com and Rivals instead of college for 2-3 years to get an "education" you mean to honestly tell me that would not hurt the NCAA!?

And you say that the NCAA would be "better off?" Ha ha ha... I disagree my friend. And I bet you any money coaches would leave as well.

I cant wait for you to give us updates on Emmanuel Mudiay's performances on the dark side of the moon. What channel is that?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Atticus on July 29, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
I picked a random year....2001. According to a brilliant poster here, college basketball wouldnt survive if the top 20 kids never played college. Well, here is a list of the RSCI top 25 from 2001. I think college basketball is in a safe place. lol


1   �      Eddy Curry   6   1   1   1   1   1   595      6-10   C   South Holland, IL   NBA
2   �      Kelvin Torbert   2   4   5   2   1   2   590      6-4   WG   Flint, MI   Michigan State
3   -1      Dejaun Wagner   1   2   3   3   3   5   589      6-3   PG-WG   Camden, NJ   Memphis
4   1      Tyson Chandler   4   6   6   4   4   4   578      7-0   C   Compton, CA   NBA
5   -1      Ousmane Cisse   5   5   8   5   5   3   575      6-9   PF-C   Montgomery, AL   NBA
6   5      Kwame Brown   14   3   2   6   12   7   562      6-10   C-PF   Brunswick, GA   NBA
7   -1      Julius Hodge   3   9   14   7   7   8   558      6-5   WG-WF   Bronx, NY   NC State
8   -1      Desanga Diop   20   7   4   8   10   6   551      6-11   C   Mouth of Wilson, VA   NBA
9   1      Rick Rickert   9   19   9   11   6   10   542      6-10   PF   Duluth, MN   Minnesota
10   -1      David Lee   8   8   11   10   11   20   538      6-8   PF   St. Louis, MO   Florida
11   5      Jawad Williams   17   11   13   13   15   12   525      6-8   WF   Lakewood, OH   North Carolina
12   �      Carlos Hurt   11   15   18   12   13   13   524      6-2   PG   Louisville, KY   Louisville
13   2      David Harrison   19   12   15   16   19   11   514      6-11   C   Brentwood, TN   Colorado
13   -5      Jonathan Hargett   7   17   7   9   9   43   514      6-1   PG   Durham, NC   West Virginia
15   -2      Aaron Miles   16   28   20   15   8   9   510      6-0   PG   Portland, OR   Kansas
16   -2      Maurice Williams   21   22   16   14   16   14   503      6-0   PG   Jackson, MS   Alabama
17   2      T.J. Ford   15   14   10   23   24   26   494      5-10   PG   Sugarland, TX   Texas
18   -1      Josh Childress   12   24   26   18   18   16   492      6-5   WF-WG   Lakewood, CA   Stanford
19   1      Cedric Bozeman   13   20   22   22   17   24   488      6-4   WG-PG   Santa Ana, CA   UCLA
20   1      Wayne Simien   30   16   19   21   21   15   484      6-9   PF   Leavenworth, KS   Kansas
21   -3      Rashaad Carruth   18   32   24   19   22   31   460      6-3   WG   Mouth of Wilson, VA   Kentucky
22   7      James White*      10   12   17   14   17   435      6-7   WF   Chatham, VA   Florida
23   -1      Jamal Sampson   33   35   23   26   28   28   433      6-10   C   Santa Ana, CA   California
24   18      John Allen   10   13   21   52   54   29   427      6-5   WF-WG   Coatesville, PA   Seaton Hall
25   �      Jackie Manuel   47   30   27   24   23   36   419      6-5   WG-WF   West Palm Beach, FL   North Caro
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 30, 2014, 07:18:11 AM
Give me a break. It is about the players....PERIOD. Most Universities are knows on a large scale due to athletics. Get real.

I think it would affect college sports, but not nearly as much as you think.  And it certainly would not be the end of college athletics.  It's a symbiotic relationship:  the universities are known because of the athletics, and the athletes are known because of the universities. 

I'm a Marquette fan.  I've been a fan when they sucked, and I've been fan when they've been good.  They take a bunch of kids that I've never heard of, give them jerseys, and I root for them.  That's how many college sports fans are -- I'd wager most college sports fans.  If the best 100 players went to a minor league system, I'd still watch Marquette basketball and hope that our roster cobbled from the remaining players beats Wisconsin.  If HS kids are allowed to go to the NFL and/or a minor league, Alabama fans will still root for their team to beat Auburn and will still proudly wear their national championship t-shirts.  I think you seriously over-estimate how tied up people are on the level of the play.  They just want their alma maters to be the best relative to the other teams in their league.  But they will continue to root for them and follow them -- and spend money on them -- even if they're not.  The creation of another league might change that, but I don't think it would change that too much.

It's often said that these colleges are exploiting athletes.  While I don't really agree with that, I think there's certainly an argument that can be made that it is true.  If it's true, the reason that the colleges are able to do it is that they have a rabid fan base that will root for any kid that wears the jersey; they don't much care who the kid is.  They'll root for the kid as long as he's wearing the right jersey.  As soon as he transfers, they'll root for the next kid who gets assigned the jersey.

Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: NavinRJohnson on July 30, 2014, 08:47:34 AM
Just cant have this argument anymore, but can all of those opposed to this or other suggested payments to players just be honest about why you are against them? You want your college football and basketball, NCAA tournamanet and mU games on TV and the Bradley Center, and the current system allows you to get it. You know darn well that should significant changes occur with a more real world type system of pay based on relative value were to be implemented, college athletics as we know it would be history. May not die completely, but likely would not be what we have come to know. You don't want that. Its about you, not the players involved. I get it. I am part of the problem because I keep buying tickets and tuning in, but i also think moving in that direction is the right thing to do, and if college athletics as we know it ceases to exist, so be it. I'll find something else to do.

Cue the "thousands of kids who get athletic scholarships will no longer get them" argument...yep, that's probably true. Again, so be it. Why does a volleyball player have a God given right to a free/reduced education funded by the money generated by his football playing brethren?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: Lennys Tap on July 30, 2014, 09:07:20 AM


Cue the "thousands of kids who get athletic scholarships will no longer get them" argument...yep, that's probably true. Again, so be it. Why does a volleyball player have a God given right to a free/reduced education funded by the money generated by his football playing brethren?

Ding, ding, ding.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 30, 2014, 10:10:16 AM
Just cant have this argument anymore, but can all of those opposed to this or other suggested payments to players just be honest about why you are against them? You want your college football and basketball, NCAA tournamanet and mU games on TV and the Bradley Center, and the current system allows you to get it. You know darn well that should significant changes occur with a more real world type system of pay based on relative value were to be implemented, college athletics as we know it would be history. May not die completely, but likely would not be what we have come to know. You don't want that. Its about you, not the players involved. I get it. I am part of the problem because I keep buying tickets and tuning in, but i also think moving in that direction is the right thing to do, and if college athletics as we know it ceases to exist, so be it. I'll find something else to do.

Cue the "thousands of kids who get athletic scholarships will no longer get them" argument...yep, that's probably true. Again, so be it. Why does a volleyball player have a God given right to a free/reduced education funded by the money generated by his football playing brethren?

There are going to be changes in college sports, and I'm OK with that.  Like you, if they change to the point that I lose interest, I'll find something else to do.  But I don't expect that to happen.  I honestly don't know what the changes will be, but it seems there are several key possibilities:  1) pay the athletes; 2) the big time football/basketball programs split off and do their own thing; or 3) a completely separate and potentially viable minor league for football/basketball.  If any of these things happen (or if nothing happens), I'm pretty sure I'd still be a Marquette fan.

College sports is marketing...effective marketing.  There are 332 DI volleyball programs in the NCAA.  Football isn't funding them all.  Schools will continue spending money on athletics just like they'll continue spending money to send countless mailings to every 17 year old with a pulse.  Whether they're right or wrong, schools perceive value in having athletics even if they're not directly profitable (and they aren't in many schools).
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: jesmu84 on July 30, 2014, 10:29:47 AM
Just cant have this argument anymore, but can all of those opposed to this or other suggested payments to players just be honest about why you are against them? You want your college football and basketball, NCAA tournamanet and mU games on TV and the Bradley Center, and the current system allows you to get it. You know darn well that should significant changes occur with a more real world type system of pay based on relative value were to be implemented, college athletics as we know it would be history. May not die completely, but likely would not be what we have come to know. You don't want that. Its about you, not the players involved. I get it. I am part of the problem because I keep buying tickets and tuning in, but i also think moving in that direction is the right thing to do, and if college athletics as we know it ceases to exist, so be it. I'll find something else to do.

Cue the "thousands of kids who get athletic scholarships will no longer get them" argument...yep, that's probably true. Again, so be it. Why does a volleyball player have a God given right to a free/reduced education funded by the money generated by his football playing brethren?

Because some people want free market and capitalism in one part of society but not others?
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: forgetful on July 30, 2014, 10:40:46 AM

Cue the "thousands of kids who get athletic scholarships will no longer get them" argument...yep, that's probably true. Again, so be it. Why does a volleyball player have a God given right to a free/reduced education funded by the money generated by his football playing brethren?

Out of curiosity, why does a football player have a God given right to a free/reduced education and additional pay subsidized by students who are paying tuition.

Remember, many football programs do not make money and if you subtract donations and hidden subsidies, I don't think any programs actually make a profit, even for football alone.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: mu-rara on July 30, 2014, 11:54:58 AM
Professional leagues need college sports because it is a lower risk proposition.

Colleges take the burden of vetting players off the NBA GM and puts it on the colleges.  We all know about the HS busts.  Spending at least 2 years in college lowers, not eliminates, the risk of a bust.

I think HS kids who don't want to go to college should have that option.  If the top 20 players each year want to get paid, let them.  It won't affect my love of the Warriors or college basketball.
Title: Re: Skip Bayless: Let Boosters Pay Players
Post by: NavinRJohnson on July 30, 2014, 05:18:13 PM
Out of curiosity, why does a football player have a God given right to a free/reduced education and additional pay subsidized by students who are paying tuition.

Remember, many football programs do not make money and if you subtract donations and hidden subsidies, I don't think any programs actually make a profit, even for football alone.

They don't, but if they generate the revenue, in my mind, they deserve compensation commensurate with their contribution (to the top line). I agree all programs are not created equally, but those donations and hidden subsidies happen as a result of college football's existence, as does TV money, ticket revenue, etc. you're kind of making my point...many Universities find football (or basketball) programs financially beneficial. They lead to additional $ in some form, even if they may not be completely self funded. Take it away, and you take away the donations, revenue, etc. that it generates. Can the same be said for gymnastics? Of course not. If tomorrow the gymnasts at XYZU stopped doing gymnastics, the impact on the University would be virtually non-existent. If the football players stopped playing football, the impact would be massive.