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MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: jesmu84 on July 22, 2014, 01:29:31 PM

Title: Kevin Love trade
Post by: jesmu84 on July 22, 2014, 01:29:31 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11247946/chicago-bulls-join-cleveland-cavaliers-kevin-love-trade-push?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

Pro: I would be happy with Love in Chicago.

Con: I would not be happy with Butler in Minnesota.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: shiloh26 on July 22, 2014, 01:50:52 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11247946/chicago-bulls-join-cleveland-cavaliers-kevin-love-trade-push?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

Pro: I would be happy with Love in Chicago.

Con: I would not be happy with Butler in Minnesota.

If Wiggins, Bennett and a 1st rounder hasn't gotten it done, I can't see the Wolves jumping for Butler, Gibson and a 1st rounder.  If the Wolves are going to trade Love, they have to be thinking they'll drop into rebuild mode again, so you'd think they'd want the younger "higher upside" guys.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 22, 2014, 02:13:49 PM
I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on July 22, 2014, 02:18:58 PM
This Bulls stuff is all nonsense. Wolves are leaking this "report" to build a market. Don't buy into it for a second.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: shiloh26 on July 22, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

You're probably not wrong?  I think Bosh was a little more highly regarded in 2010 than you're suggesting - he was a third-wheel only by virtue of his two no-doubt Hall of Fame in-their-prime teammates, not by virtue of his lack of skill.  On any other team that year he's almost automatically the second best player, if not the best player.

Love is a fantastic offensive player, especially in today's NBA with the emphasis on floor spacing and perimeter shooting.  People like to think of him with LeBron because LeBron would have theoretically have a ton of space to attack the paint because the opposing team's PF has to respect Love's 3-point shooting. 

There is plenty to criticize about him too, mostly with regard to his defense, but I don't think the lack of playoff appearances is totally fair.  Even beyond the fact that the West has been churning out 45 win non-playoff teams for a long time now, and the fact that the brain trust in Minnesota has swung and missed on almost every high draft pick for the last decade, some metrics (like average margin of victory) had last year's Minnesota team as one of the best non-playoff teams ever. 

Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on July 22, 2014, 04:06:43 PM
I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

I don't know if Love is a top-10 player or not, but your comparison with Bosh helps illustrate why LeBron would love to have Love by his side.

Bosh was in important player on a two-time championship team, and I'm guessing LeBron believes Love would help mightily in that regard.

Michael and Scottie don't win six NBA titles without third wheels named Grant and Rodman; LeBron and Wade don't win two titles without the third wheel Bosh. Whether Love would be the third wheel or Irving would be, that's a pretty nice trio along with LeBron.

I have a feeling we agree on all of this ...
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: forgetful on July 22, 2014, 04:33:12 PM
I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

I often see this attack on players, but it is a hard metric to judge. 

One could easily ask if Lebron has made anyone on the court better besides himself.  Most players (Bosh, Wade, Big Z) have done worse along side Lebron than they did with him.  One could argue that those players were getting old and less useful, but it can't be proven one way or another.

Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 22, 2014, 04:36:21 PM
I don't know if Love is a top-10 player or not, but your comparison with Bosh helps illustrate why LeBron would love to have Love by his side.

Bosh was in important player on a two-time championship team, and I'm guessing LeBron believes Love would help mightily in that regard.

Michael and Scottie don't win six NBA titles without third wheels named Grant and Rodman; LeBron and Wade don't win two titles without the third wheel Bosh. Whether Love would be the third wheel or Irving would be, that's a pretty nice trio along with LeBron.

I have a feeling we agree on all of this ...

Yup. I was playing devil's advocate more than speaking bad of Love.

I guess the question for the Cavs is whether Love is better than wiggins in three years.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on July 22, 2014, 04:48:59 PM
Yup. I was playing devil's advocate more than speaking bad of Love.

I guess the question for the Cavs is whether Love is better than wiggins in three years.

Legit question, though if I have a legit chance to win big now I care a little less about 3 years from now.

So the big question the Cavs have to ask is: In the Eastern Conference, does LeBron-Love-Irving-etc give us a good chance to at least get to the NBA Finals? And I wouldn't blame them for answering, "Yes," even though I still believe the Bulls with Rose healthy will be the class of the conference.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: reinko on July 22, 2014, 04:53:12 PM
If the Wolves screw this up, which is not out of the realm of possibility, it will be worse than the Rubio/Flynn debacle.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: ErickJD08 on July 22, 2014, 04:59:29 PM
I am kinda tired of all of this.  LBJ is the best player in the game and might be the best ever.  But he got his A$$ completely worked in the finals this year.  The reason could be that the Spurs were that good.  But really its because the Heat had really really really good defensive players when they were good.  Wade during LBJs second year was pretty much a shut down defender which created TOs and leak outs for LBJ.  

Cavs have a really good situation but I think LBJ is putting pressure on them to get Love.  Getting Love would be a bad move for them.  They have Wiggins who could be a very good player, maybe great, and his rookie contract give them the flexibility to get key role players around Irving, LBJ, and Wiggins.  Let's face it, a Irving, LBJ, and Love combo with a bunch of old guys on Vets min contracts is not going to be a quality defense.  

LBJs for sure make the Cavs a player in the East because the East is absolutely terrible.  But people make it sound like you just need two or three stars on a team and you have a championship.  If that's true, why haven't the Thunder won who have two absolute studs?  Its still a team game but you need a complete team around your stars.

Finally, I hope the Bulls do not get Love.  I am a big Love fan but with our roster, it doesn't make sense any more.  We have Gasol and Taj in the PF slot.  We have shooters now with McBuckets, Snell, Mike Dunleavy, and Nikolas.  Before the draft and Gasol, Bulls needed shooters and Love fill that void.  Now they have it and they have post up PFs.  The only reason I would be excited to have Love is because I am a season ticket holder and my tickets will not plummet in value when Rose gets hurt.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Jay Bee on July 22, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Lol

Bosh rarely shot 3's. Sub-30% when he did. Kevin stretches you out so much nh. 37.6% last season.

He only played ~17 the year before - was injured. Sheesh

The DR% diff is big - Love is elite.
Assist rates are huge in Love's favor.
Ortg w ~same usage, Win shares, PER, whatever you want... It's all in Kevin's favor.

And the rebounding, 3 shooting & outlet passing make it a silly claim to say Bosh in Toronto v Love now is just a diff if 'a few Rebs'

PS- fully expect us to muck up a trade & get trash or nothing in return.

Love Kevin but he wants to be set free. OK, as long as we get PAID in talent for it.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: shiloh26 on July 22, 2014, 05:11:37 PM

Cavs have a really good situation but I think LBJ is putting pressure on them to get Love.  Getting Love would be a bad move for them.  They have Wiggins who could be a very good player, maybe great, and his rookie contract give them the flexibility to get key role players around Irving, LBJ, and Wiggins.  Let's face it, a Irving, LBJ, and Love combo with a bunch of old guys on Vets min contracts is not going to be a quality defense.  



I agree and frankly, if, as rumored, the Cavs are really offering Wiggins, Bennett and a future first (barring a LeBron injury, it'll be non-lottery, but still), I'm surprised the Wolves haven't already traded Love.  Dude is on the way out of Minnesota after this year anyway.  

The Bulls' and the Warriors' potential packages are inferior to that, IMO.  I guess it depends on how you feel about how good Wiggins will be, and how good you feel Klay Thompson is.

If I'm the Cavs, I would hang onto Wiggins.  With LeBron and Kyrie they're probably already among the top couple teams in the East, and have a good shot at making the Finals.  Let Wiggins grow up for a few years playing with LeBron, and you potentially have an excellent team with an excellent bridge to the future as LeBron inevitably winds down.  The Cavs are in a very enviable spot where they don't have to sacrifice the future to be very good now.

That said, I can totally see why they'd trade for Love, and wouldn't blame them a bit for maximizing their title shot ASAP.  I just don't think I would make the deal.  As noted, Love doesn't fix their biggest need - defense (specifically interior defense).
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 22, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Legit question, though if I have a legit chance to win big now I care a little less about 3 years from now.

So the big question the Cavs have to ask is: In the Eastern Conference, does LeBron-Love-Irving-etc give us a good chance to at least get to the NBA Finals? And I wouldn't blame them for answering, "Yes," even though I still believe the Bulls with Rose healthy will be the class of the conference.

Agree again. If you can win now vs. possibly win in three years, it really is a pretty easy decision.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 22, 2014, 05:35:35 PM
I often see this attack on players, but it is a hard metric to judge. 

One could easily ask if Lebron has made anyone on the court better besides himself.  Most players (Bosh, Wade, Big Z) have done worse along side Lebron than they did with him.  One could argue that those players were getting old and less useful, but it can't be proven one way or another.


I may be reading this wrong, but you could not be further from the truth if you tried. And it can be proven very easily.

Without Lebron, the 3 players have 1 Finals appearance in over 20 years.

With Lebron, they have 9 Finals appearances in 17 seasons.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: forgetful on July 22, 2014, 08:09:01 PM
I may be reading this wrong, but you could not be further from the truth if you tried. And it can be proven very easily.

Without Lebron, the 3 players have 1 Finals appearance in over 20 years.

With Lebron, they have 9 Finals appearances in 17 seasons.

Was looking at individual improvement not team improvement.  I see your point then.  I wasn't arguing that Lebron wasn't a team player or a good player.  Just that unless you are a PG, it is difficult to improve the individual abilities of those around you.

The team being ether with Lebron, absolutely yes, he is a great talent. 

In that regards, Lebron made the Cavs a contender.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Atticus on July 23, 2014, 03:13:13 PM
Here's the latest rumored offer on the table:

Minnesota sends Love and Barea to Cleveland and Martin to Philadelphia. Cleveland sends Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett, three non-guaranteed contracts and two 2015 first-round draft picks to Minnesota and Dion Waiters to Philadelphia. Philadelphia sends Thaddeus Young to Cleveland.

I personally think the price is too steep. Cleveland will completely deplete their second unit and have to cross their fingers that Varejao, Irving and Love can all stay healthy when each has a history that says otherwise.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on July 23, 2014, 03:21:50 PM
This Bulls stuff is all nonsense. Wolves are leaking this "report" to build a market. Don't buy into it for a second.

This.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: GGGG on July 23, 2014, 03:40:26 PM
If I'm the Cavs, I would hang onto Wiggins.  With LeBron and Kyrie they're probably already among the top couple teams in the East, and have a good shot at making the Finals.  Let Wiggins grow up for a few years playing with LeBron, and you potentially have an excellent team with an excellent bridge to the future as LeBron inevitably winds down.  The Cavs are in a very enviable spot where they don't have to sacrifice the future to be very good now.


Lebron isn't waiting "for a few years" on Wiggins.

Unless you can consistently build a team from the draft the path to an NBA title has become pretty obvious.  You get a superstar and surround him with talent to win ASAP.  You don't wait to have talent develop around him.

With the exception of the Spurs, who are truly exceptional at what they do, look at the list of recent NBA champions.  They all fit that model.

The Heat...Mavericks...Lakers...
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: 🏀 on July 23, 2014, 03:46:09 PM
Chris Sherdian reported it is a legit offer.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: shiloh26 on July 23, 2014, 03:58:13 PM

Lebron isn't waiting "for a few years" on Wiggins.

Unless you can consistently build a team from the draft the path to an NBA title has become pretty obvious.  You get a superstar and surround him with talent to win ASAP.  You don't wait to have talent develop around him.

With the exception of the Spurs, who are truly exceptional at what they do, look at the list of recent NBA champions.  They all fit that model.

The Heat...Mavericks...Lakers...

You're probably right and it's looking more and more like this trade will be completed.  As I said, even though I think it's the Cavs best long term option to hang onto Wiggins, I can't fault them in trading for a player as good and as complementary to LeBron as Love, for just those reasons. 
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 23, 2014, 05:16:44 PM
Wiggins will probably be awesome in two or three years...or he could be one of those lottery picks who we later learn was overrated (Adam Morrison, anyone?  Shaun Livingston?  DARKO MILICIC?).

Love is a known elite-level player who could help the Cavs win championships asap...which is exactly what LBJ and Cavs fans want.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 23, 2014, 05:35:51 PM
If the Bulls could get Love for McDermott, Mirotic and Taj (which is the latest rumor) you absolutely pull the trigger. I have no problem with that trade in the slightest.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 23, 2014, 06:24:54 PM
Wiggins will probably be awesome in two or three years...or he could be one of those lottery picks who we later learn was overrated (Adam Morrison, anyone?  Shaun Livingston?  DARKO MILICIC?).

Love is a known elite-level player who could help the Cavs win championships asap...which is exactly what LBJ and Cavs fans want.

Livingston was injured - not nexessarily over rated.

Love is comparable to Bosh 4 years ago - a very good player, but not sure I would call him elite.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on July 23, 2014, 06:28:27 PM
I know Sheridan reported it, but I still believe the Wolves are leaking this.

This Bulls offer is the same one they offered last year (Gibson, Mirotic, 1st rounder, which is McDermott).

I'm not buying into any of it.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: wadesworld on July 23, 2014, 06:45:49 PM
Livingston was injured - not nexessarily over rated.

Love is comparable to Bosh 4 years ago - a very good player, but not sure I would call him elite.

Love averaged 26 points, 13 rebounds, and 4.5 assists per game last year on 46% shooting and 37% from beyond the arc last year.  Curious to know what he has to do to be considered elite in your mind.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 23, 2014, 06:46:46 PM
I know Sheridan reported it, but I still believe the Wolves are leaking this.

This Bulls offer is the same one they offered last year (Gibson, Mirotic, 1st rounder, which is McDermott).

I'm not buying into any of it.

I believe this one is legit. The Bulls have a surplus of stretch 4s. This way they keep their very shallow back court in tact and they get rid of what they have extras of, stretch 4s. Plus Mirotic and Mcdermott are unproven and Taj is almost 30 already. Great trade for the Bulls if it were to happen.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on July 23, 2014, 07:07:10 PM
I'm not saying it isn't legit, it's just the same offer that's been on the table for months (except McDermott is the first round pick).

This is quite easy to report, because its existed for so long.

I'd like to see the Bulls keep one of either Mirotic or McDermott personally, and send Kings protected 2015 first rounder, but probably not enough.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 23, 2014, 07:10:38 PM
I'm not saying it isn't legit, it's just the same offer that's been on the table for months (except McDermott is the first round pick).

This is quite easy to report, because its existed for so long.

I'd like to see the Bulls keep one of either Mirotic or McDermott personally, and send Kings protected 2015 first rounder, but probably not enough.

Meh. Im ok with sending both away. Love is still only 25 and proven. I just have this feeling Mcdermott is gonna turn into Adam Morrison. Mirotic is an interesting prospect but id take Love over him.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: 🏀 on July 23, 2014, 07:21:29 PM
I'd like to see what Nikola has, but won't be upset to see him go.

Of course if they trade Taj, he's going to average 20/15 on the Wolves. #chicagostupid
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 23, 2014, 07:29:15 PM
I'd like to see what Nikola has, but won't be upset to see him go.

Of course if they trade Taj, he's going to average 20/15 on the Wolves. #chicagostupid

Ive never been that impressed with Taj. Never struck me as a player who could be a solid starter night in and night out.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on July 23, 2014, 07:29:24 PM
I'd like to see what Nikola has, but won't be upset to see him go.

Of course if they trade Taj, he's going to average 20/15 on the Wolves. #chicagostupid

I'm intrigued by Miritoc and McDermott, mostly because the Bulls have lacked pure scorers for so long, and because Noah is an ideal guy for them to play with.

Love is clearly a top 10-5 player, and if he's available, you get him.

All comes down to Rose and whatever he has left.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: 🏀 on July 23, 2014, 07:32:27 PM
Ive never been that impressed with Taj. Never struck me as a player who could be a solid starter night in and night out.

I agree. He has some great, great bursts of output though. He also tugs at the strings of the meatheads.

I'm intrigued by Miritoc and McDermott, mostly because the Bulls have lacked pure scorers for so long, and because Noah is an ideal guy for them to play with.

Love is clearly a top 10-5 player, and if he's available, you get him.

All comes down to Rose and whatever he has left.

This is what worries me.

If Rose has 85%+ of what he had, make the trade for Love. Go for it.

If Rose is less than that, I don't trade those assets. I don't know what to do except tickle the flames of basketball hell.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on July 23, 2014, 08:12:04 PM
Love averaged 26 points, 13 rebounds, and 4.5 assists per game last year on 46% shooting and 37% from beyond the arc last year.  Curious to know what he has to do to be considered elite in your mind.

I don't want to argue on this cuz you'd probably win. I guess maybe my point was that big numbers on a non-playoff team don't mean that much to me. When you are the best offensive option (by far) on a bad team and always the #1 option when your team has the ball, you are gonna have big numbers.

Bosh averaged 24 pts and 11 Rebs in his last year with the Raptors. Those, too, are elite - or near elite - numbers but I considered him a very good player rather than elite.

So, I guess our difference is that you think he is elite and I consider him to be a very good player - maybe not top 10 in the league, but close.

If he goes to Cleveland and puts up something like 24 and 12 while playing solid "D" - then I would put him at the elite category. Because he would be doing that on a team with 2 other very good offensive options.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on July 23, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
I agree. He has some great, great bursts of output though. He also tugs at the strings of the meatheads.

This is what worries me.

If Rose has 85%+ of what he had, make the trade for Love. Go for it.

If Rose is less than that, I don't trade those assets. I don't know what to do except tickle the flames of basketball hell.

+ Infinity

If Rose is close to old Rose, you're all in on Love.

If Rose sucks, you almost need those guys to give you more scoring options. Clearly Love is the best player here, but I think for a potential trade to be great, Rose has to be good to great again. We'll see.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: frozena pizza on July 24, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
It may seem a bit far fetched, but as a Wolves fan I'm starting to hope they just hang on to Love.  They know that they had a lot of bad luck last year and were better than their record.  Add a few free agents to add some depth and try to make a playoff run, then if he wants to leave for less money next year that's up to him.  If the Wolves are below .500 by the trade deadline they could still make a deal then, but none of the packages being discussed are particularly compelling.  I wouldn't mind getting Wiggins I guess and the Cavs should be begging the Wolves to make that deal.  Love is a unique talent and a top 5 player in the league and players like that rarely hit the trade market.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: swoopem on July 24, 2014, 09:55:57 AM
If the Bulls trade for Love is Pau the 6th man or do they both start and Love plays the 3?

Obviously these are problems you worry about once Love is a Bull, but it'll be interesting.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on July 24, 2014, 10:19:26 AM
I don't want to argue on this cuz you'd probably win. I guess maybe my point was that big numbers on a non-playoff team don't mean that much to me. When you are the best offensive option (by far) on a bad team and always the #1 option when your team has the ball, you are gonna have big numbers.

Bosh averaged 24 pts and 11 Rebs in his last year with the Raptors. Those, too, are elite - or near elite - numbers but I considered him a very good player rather than elite.

So, I guess our difference is that you think he is elite and I consider him to be a very good player - maybe not top 10 in the league, but close.

If he goes to Cleveland and puts up something like 24 and 12 while playing solid "D" - then I would put him at the elite category. Because he would be doing that on a team with 2 other very good offensive options.

I think some of Love's value is his efficiency, and he doesn't need the ball every possession to be effective. He's a great rebounder, and if you took some of his offensive responsibilities away, he might be even better.

He's not a high volume guy stuck on a bad team.

He can run pick & roll offense, or you can just put him on the weakside and let him create some havoc in the lane, or even by stretching the defense (have to guard him out to the 3pt line).

He can also run some high/low stuff, which makes him more versatile than most 4/5's.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: JWags85 on July 24, 2014, 10:46:36 AM
If the Bulls trade for Love is Pau the 6th man or do they both start and Love plays the 3?

Obviously these are problems you worry about once Love is a Bull, but it'll be interesting.

Absolutely.  The ability to bring Pau off the bench, and manage his minutes, given that he's had a few injuries and is in his mid 30s would be excellent in terms of increasing his effectiveness and efficiency.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on July 24, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
+ Infinity

If Rose is close to old Rose, you're all in on Love.

If Rose sucks, you almost need those guys to give you more scoring options. Clearly Love is the best player here, but I think for a potential trade to be great, Rose has to be good to great again. We'll see.

If I'm Love and I have any say in this at all, I'd rather go to Cleveland.

I don't know if Rose will ever truly be Rose again - or if he is, for how long before the next injury strikes. I do know that Rose, even at his MVP best, never sniffed an NBA title.

Meanwhile, I know for certain that LeBron figures to be the best basketball player in the world for several more years. I also know he has led two franchises to the NBA Finals 5 times and wears two championship rings.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on July 24, 2014, 12:06:47 PM
Absolutely.  The ability to bring Pau off the bench, and manage his minutes, given that he's had a few injuries and is in his mid 30s would be excellent in terms of increasing his effectiveness and efficiency.

Agreed. Obviously not an apples to apples comparison, but Bill Walton had a nice resurgence with Boston when he became a role player and they could limit his minutes.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on August 07, 2014, 09:04:32 AM
The Minnesota Timberwolves have reached an agreement in principle to send All-Star forward Kevin Love to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a protected 2015 first-round draft pick, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

Cleveland is making the deal with Minnesota with a firm agreement Love will opt out of his contract in 2015 and re-sign with the Cavaliers on a five-year, $120 million-plus contract extension, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

The deal cannot be finalized until Aug. 23, because Wiggins, the No. 1 overall pick in the 2014 NBA draft, cannot be traded until one month after the signing of his rookie contract. The two teams have agreed to the deal, but neither would have recourse if the other decided to pull out of the arrangement before it can be formally completed this month. No third team is involved in the Cavaliers-Timberwolves trade agreement.

The precise deal terms have been agreed upon for weeks, but the teams and Love plan to stay silent about the particulars until the trade is announced in 16 days, sources told Yahoo Sports.

Part of the Cavaliers' motivation in making the deal for Love was a belief Love would have ended up with the rival Chicago Bulls in a trade and created a significant obstacle in the Eastern Conference, sources said. Cleveland wouldn't have had the salary-cap space to sign Love next summer and could have only obtained him through the trade with Minnesota in a deal now.

Wiggins is the centerpiece of the package for Minnesota. The Timberwolves see superstar potential in the forward out of Kansas. Bennett, the No. 1 pick in the 2013 draft, has shown signs of progress after a difficult start to his rookie season.

The T'wolves had hopes of unloading contracts in a Love deal, but that won't be happening. Minnesota still has a goal of freeing itself of J.J. Barea, Luc Mbah a Moute and Alexey Shved, league sources said.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: StillAWarrior on August 07, 2014, 09:23:36 AM
I think the Cavs gave up too much.  But, they're going to be fun to watch next season.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: swoopem on August 07, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
I think the Cavs gave up too much.  But, they're going to be fun to watch next season.

You think so? Wiggins absolutely has potential and could become a star, but that could take 5 years which is how long Love's deal is. Bennett on the other hand might turn into a role player if he has vast improvement. I'm not ready to write him off. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think he'll be a, say, 16 & 8 type of guy. Also, the first round pick is protected which works in Cleveland's favor.  If I'm Cleveland I do this trade 8 days a week.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: GGGG on August 07, 2014, 09:41:21 AM
It's a trade that benefits both teams.  Cleveland needs a proven star to go with Lebron, and the Wolves need to build for the future.  Both got what they needed.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: StillAWarrior on August 07, 2014, 10:10:57 AM
You think so? Wiggins absolutely has potential and could become a star, but that could take 5 years which is how long Love's deal is. Bennett on the other hand might turn into a role player if he has vast improvement. I'm not ready to write him off. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think he'll be a, say, 16 & 8 type of guy. Also, the first round pick is protected which works in Cleveland's favor.  If I'm Cleveland I do this trade 8 days a week.

It's not so much that I think Cleveland gave up too much (although I think that it is debatable), it's just that I think that they might have been able to get Love for less if they'd waited a bit.  Minnesota had to trade Love.  They could not risk losing him and getting nothing in return.  I think down the road, the price would have been lower.  And, worst case scenario, I think they could have picked him up next summer if Minnesota traded him to someone else.  Love made no bones about wanting to play in Cleveland (i.e., play with Lebron), so I think he wouldn't have done a long term sign and trade deal with anyone else.  So, I'm not sure anyone else would have offered nearly the package that the Cavs would offer.

Don't get me wrong...as a Clevelander, I'm not upset about the trade.  In fact, I'm very excited for what Love brings and how the team will look next season.  I just think that the Cavs should have stared the Timberwolves down a little more to see if they could get them to blink first.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: wadesworld on August 07, 2014, 10:55:30 AM
Does next year's Cavs roster match up better with the Spurs?  What if it's the Thunder or Clippers (heck, maybe even Blazers or Mavs) that make it to the Finals?

Just points of discussion.  I'd still take the Spurs, mainly because every single year I keep thinking, "This is their last chance to win the Finals, they're getting too old," and every year they're right back in the thick of things.  Then again, we're 10 months away from that point...
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: flash on August 07, 2014, 11:33:45 AM
I think the Cavs gave up too much.  But, they're going to be fun to watch next season.

Gave up too much??? Anthony Bennett was awful last year for a 1st overall pick, Andrew Wiggins has never played a minute in the NBA, and the Cavs 1st round pick is likely to be in the high 20's.  Sounds like a great deal for the Cavs. 
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on August 07, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
^ plus they're likely to get the overall #1 pick again in the next year or 2
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MUfan12 on August 07, 2014, 12:16:56 PM
Gave up too much??? Anthony Bennett was awful last year for a 1st overall pick, Andrew Wiggins has never played a minute in the NBA, and the Cavs 1st round pick is likely to be in the high 20's.  Sounds like a great deal for the Cavs. 

Bennett was bad, and very lazy from what I've been told. Some think he'll be out of the league in 5 years.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: StillAWarrior on August 07, 2014, 12:22:46 PM
Gave up too much??? Anthony Bennett was awful last year for a 1st overall pick, Andrew Wiggins has never played a minute in the NBA, and the Cavs 1st round pick is likely to be in the high 20's.  Sounds like a great deal for the Cavs. 

As I mentioned above, perhaps "gave up too much" was a poor choice of words.  Maybe I should have said, "gave up more than they needed to."
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: frozena pizza on August 07, 2014, 01:50:28 PM
As I mentioned above, perhaps "gave up too much" was a poor choice of words.  Maybe I should have said, "gave up more than they needed to."

Even that would have been off.  Cleveland got a great deal.  Sure they gave up Wiggins, but it's unlikely that in 5 years Wiggins will be at the level Love is at now.  Aside from that, they gave up a dud (Bennett) who will probably never amount to anything, and a pick that probably won't be worth much.  Finally, contrary to popular belief, Minnesota absolutely did not "have to trade" Kevin Love.  They were not far off from being a playoff team last year and they could have tried to make a run with him this year and then put the ball in his court next summer to take less money to leave to playoff team.  Overall I think the Wolves did the right thing by making the move, but this is clearly a win for Cleveland.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: wadesworld on August 07, 2014, 01:57:27 PM
^ plus they're likely to get the overall #1 pick again in the next year or 2

Hey, with LeBron in Cleveland the Cavs could have the best record in the NBA and if they don't win the NBA Finals they could somehow end up with the #1 overall pick, despite not being eligible for the lottery.

Even that would have been off.  Cleveland got a great deal.  Sure they gave up Wiggins, but it's unlikely that in 5 years Wiggins will be at the level Love is at now.  Aside from that, they gave up a dud (Bennett) who will probably never amount to anything, and a pick that probably won't be worth much.  Finally, contrary to popular belief, Minnesota absolutely did not "have to trade" Kevin Love.  They were not far off from being a playoff team last year and they could have tried to make a run with him this year and then put the ball in his court next summer to take less money to leave to playoff team.  Overall I think the Wolves did the right thing by making the move, but this is clearly a win for Cleveland.

I disagree with just about everything you said.  Wiggins has huge potential, which is what you are going to get in return for a guy in his prime, someone who has a ton of potential for someone who has proven himself already.  That's how trades work.  In 5 years, Wiggins could very well be above the level that Kevin Love is at now.  Even if he is not, it doesn't make this a bad move, because, again, if you are going to give up a guy who has proven himself in the league, you are going to be getting potential in return, and sometimes players don't reach their potential.  Kevin Love was not staying with the Timberwolves and that has been incredibly clear for a long, long time.  Keeping him would've been a complete waste.  Absolute best case scenario with Love on the roster is what, battling for an 8 seed in the West?  Sweet, you get a date with the Spurs, Thunder, or Clippers and see 4 Playoff games.  Welcome to the Bucks (prior to this past season).  Stuck in the limbo that is mediocrity and watching your star player walk away for nothing.  They absolutely had to trade Love.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: LAZER on August 07, 2014, 01:59:55 PM
As I mentioned above, perhaps "gave up too much" was a poor choice of words.  Maybe I should have said, "gave up more than they needed to."

Chicago was offering a pretty nice package to Minnesota
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: frozena pizza on August 07, 2014, 02:18:50 PM
Hey, with LeBron in Cleveland the Cavs could have the best record in the NBA and if they don't win the NBA Finals they could somehow end up with the #1 overall pick, despite not being eligible for the lottery.

I disagree with just about everything you said.  Wiggins has huge potential, which is what you are going to get in return for a guy in his prime, someone who has a ton of potential for someone who has proven himself already.  That's how trades work.  In 5 years, Wiggins could very well be above the level that Kevin Love is at now.  Even if he is not, it doesn't make this a bad move, because, again, if you are going to give up a guy who has proven himself in the league, you are going to be getting potential in return, and sometimes players don't reach their potential.  Kevin Love was not staying with the Timberwolves and that has been incredibly clear for a long, long time.  Keeping him would've been a complete waste.  Absolute best case scenario with Love on the roster is what, battling for an 8 seed in the West?  Sweet, you get a date with the Spurs, Thunder, or Clippers and see 4 Playoff games.  Welcome to the Bucks (prior to this past season).  Stuck in the limbo that is mediocrity and watching your star player walk away for nothing.  They absolutely had to trade Love.

I said it was unlikely that in 5 years Wiggins will be better than Love is today, but Minnesota made the right move and Cleveland got a great deal.  Are you disagreeing with all of that?  Also, the fact that a player says he plans to opt out next season does not require the team to trade him immediately.  There are numerous examples.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: LAMUfan on August 07, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
Hey, with LeBron in Cleveland the Cavs could have the best record in the NBA and if they don't win the NBA Finals they could somehow end up with the #1 overall pick, despite not being eligible for the lottery.

I think he means the t-wolves could end up with the #1 pick from there own pick, you know, cause they are going to suck
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on August 07, 2014, 02:40:40 PM
Chicago was offering a pretty nice package to Minnesota

I saw Gibson, Butler and #1 pick. That's a brutal, awful package.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: GGGG on August 07, 2014, 02:42:08 PM
Even that would have been off.  Cleveland got a great deal.  Sure they gave up Wiggins, but it's unlikely that in 5 years Wiggins will be at the level Love is at now.  Aside from that, they gave up a dud (Bennett) who will probably never amount to anything, and a pick that probably won't be worth much.  Finally, contrary to popular belief, Minnesota absolutely did not "have to trade" Kevin Love.  They were not far off from being a playoff team last year and they could have tried to make a run with him this year and then put the ball in his court next summer to take less money to leave to playoff team.  Overall I think the Wolves did the right thing by making the move, but this is clearly a win for Cleveland.


I read an article around the MLB trade deadline that, through using WAR figures and the like, that trading proven stars for one or more players with potential, it works out for the team trading for the proven talent much more often than not.

It's just that when the potential ends up being very, very good, it looks bad in hindsight.  The example always brought up is the Tigers trading John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander.  Yeah Smoltz was a future HoFer, and the Tigers don't win the AL East without Alexander in 1987, but those are the trades that make those trading potential away nervous.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: GGGG on August 07, 2014, 02:43:18 PM
I saw Gibson, Butler and #1 pick. That's a brutal, awful package.


Yeah, two role players and a pick in the 20 range?  Blah.  No one over-values their assets more than the Chicago Bulls.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on August 07, 2014, 03:16:15 PM

Yeah, two role players and a pick in the 20 range?  Blah.  No one over-values their assets more than the Chicago Bulls.

Bulls had a longstanding offer of Gibson, Mirotic, #1 pick (ended up being McDermott).
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on August 07, 2014, 03:41:25 PM
Bulls had a longstanding offer of Gibson, Mirotic, #1 pick (ended up being McDermott).

That's just as bad. A 30 year old role player and 2 rookies for a guy who may be top 10 in the league.

Maybe they could get Ricky Rubio for the same offer
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: DegenerateDish on August 07, 2014, 04:06:24 PM
That's just as bad. A 30 year old role player and 2 rookies for a guy who may be top 10 in the league.

Maybe they could get Ricky Rubio for the same offer

I'm not saying it's good or bad, but that was the offer. Many liked the Bulls offer actually.

For what it's worth, I think Mirotic is an intriguing NBA player.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Jay Bee on August 07, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
Would be tough to say goodbye to Kevin, but that would most likely have happened in a year anyway.

I think this is how trades are supposed to work... advantages for both teams.. next year favors Cleveland.. down the line, gives Minnesota some reason to hope. Wolves have hosed up trades and other roster moves badly in the past.. if this completes as described, I'll be relatively pleased.

Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on August 07, 2014, 05:24:44 PM
Absolute, total, 100% no-brainer for the Cavs.

Even if you thought you had a chance to sign Love next summer - and most thought they would have trouble doing so within cap rules - why would you gamble? And why wouldn't you want to give yourself a legit shot at the Eastern title this season?

Neither Love nor LeBron are "old." If the Cavs keep both, as well as Irving, through the end of the decade - and signs are they will do just that - and surround them with some nice role players, there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be the team to beat in the East until 2020.

I'm not a Cavs fan, I have no ties to Cleveland and I think their owner is an absolute tool, but I feel happy for Cleveland sports fans. They deserve a win every few decades!
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: SaintPaulWarrior on August 08, 2014, 11:00:32 AM
Philadelphia Daily News is reporting this today.

A source informed the Daily News that the Sixers will be sending veteran forward Thaddeus Young to Minnesota for a package that will include Bennett, the No. 1 pick in the 2013 NBA draft.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on August 08, 2014, 02:21:19 PM
http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/

Here's ammo if you love Kevin Love and think he is one of the top 10-12 players in the NBA -- or -- if you think he'is just an overrated gunner who's never even played on a team that was .500


I lean towards the latter, but......
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: frozena pizza on August 08, 2014, 02:26:02 PM
http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/

Here's ammo if you love Kevin Love and think he is one of the top 10-12 players in the NBA -- or -- if you think he'is just an overrated gunner who's never even played on a team that was .500


I lean towards the latter, but......

The article basically points out that if your argument is "his teams have not won, therefore he is overrated" that is a weak and half-assed argument.  He's going to kill it with LeBron.  The Wolves are going to be pretty bad for a few years but will have a foundation to build a contender.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: 4everwarriors on August 08, 2014, 03:25:06 PM
Love can flat out hoop. Bron, Irvin', and Love are better than Bron, Wade, and Bosh.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on August 08, 2014, 05:03:40 PM
Love makes this a formidable lineup.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on August 08, 2014, 09:24:39 PM
Love can flat out hoop. Bron, Irvin', and Love are better than Bron, Wade, and Bosh.


Better than with a crippled Wade.

Otherwise, I'd take the Lebron, Wade, & Bosh from 3 years ago before Lebron, Irving, and Love now.

Let's see at least 4 straight finals before I change my mind.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on August 08, 2014, 10:25:15 PM

Better than with a crippled Wade.

Otherwise, I'd take the Lebron, Wade, & Bosh from 3 years ago before Lebron, Irving, and Love now.

Let's see at least 4 straight finals before I change my mind.

Of course.

LeBron/Wade/Bosh = Proven Champions.

LeBron/Love/Irving = We'll see.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: brandx on August 09, 2014, 03:45:48 PM
Of course.

LeBron/Wade/Bosh = Proven Champions.

LeBron/Love/Irving = We'll see.

I took the easy argument.

But I do think that the Wade of 4 years ago was a much better player than Love is now.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: MU82 on August 10, 2014, 01:59:15 AM
I took the easy argument.

But I do think that the Wade of 4 years ago was a much better player than Love is now.

Very different players, but yes I would agree.
Title: Re: Kevin Love trade
Post by: Jay Bee on August 10, 2014, 05:01:36 PM
Just hoping a trade goes through and we don't lose a million future draft picks because of under-the-table crap as the Wolves have done in the past. Ugh.