MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NersEllenson on July 07, 2014, 02:50:00 PM
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Pay a visit to Dodds site...take a listen...very good insight on all the guys in his recruiting class...where they are as of May 2014. Thinks JJJ could be the best of the bunch. Is excited for the 4 of them to be able to play together at some point. Nice critique on everyone's game..including his.
http://marquette.scout.com/2/1392849.html
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The audio isn't loading for me. Is there any where else I can listen to it?
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Pay a visit to Dodds site...take a listen...very good insight on all the guys in his recruiting class...where they are as of May 2014. Thinks JJJ could be the best of the bunch. Is excited for the 4 of them to be able to play together at some point. Nice critique on everyone's game..including his.
http://marquette.scout.com/2/1392849.html
Everyone but Buzz could see jjj's talent.
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The audio isn't loading for me. Is there any where else I can listen to it?
Hmm..not sure...but to summarize:
Dawson wasn't mad that Buzz left...understands it's a business..only question he really had for Buzz was "why?" Buzz didn't really have an answer. Said he learned from Buzz that he wasn't to be considered/or consider himself a freshman after December...Said he likes Wojo from first impressions - seems to really care about the guys as individuals...and mentioned liking that he played the game at high level...
Said he is working on his athleticism/quickness the most this offseason...along with his body in general.
Said Deonte could play linebacker for Green Bay - Dodds led him in that direction with the question. Said Deonte is a crazy good athlete - probably 240 lbs. Said he asked Deonte why he didn't play football...said because he just didn't play it growing up..
Asked how JJJ was doing - Said in the weight room a ton, in the gym a ton. A gym rat. Dodds compared him as a freshman to Vander as a freshman - Dawson feels JJJ has more upside than Vander. Said out of all the now sophomores he has all the tools to play at next level - good shot, first step, athleticism, mid range game.
Regarding Duane - Said he's been working hard...probably has put on roughly 13lbs since arriving at MU...is a great athlete...was still recovering from his injury for most of last season..but doing really well...and was looking forward to all of them being able to play together at some point.
Mentioned the guys wanting to win a national championship - of course all players want this...yet there was almost an expectant tone in the way John said - like they genuinely believe they can be that good....so much has to break the right way...but...if all those guys stay at MU for 4 years total...as seniors...they should be really damn good.
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Everyone but Buzz could see jjj's talent.
Come on brandx - Buzz played his best guys. No way Mayo or JJJ could have been better or deserving of more minutes than Jake. No way Deonte could have been better or more deserving of more minutes than Juan.
Sure would have been nice if all the freshman last year would have logged a lot of game minutes...gained that additional experience...considering we missed the freaking NIT anyway....which even was a surprise to me....though I knew we didn't stand a chance at making the NCAA as early as mid December... if things didn't change with Buzz's backcourt of choice/max minutes.
But how dare you say Buzz couldn't see JJJ's talent? Buzz got us to an Elite 8 the year before and two Sweet 16s...therefore absolving him of any possibility of making a bad coaching decision..or more properly bad coaching decisions...last season.
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Ners - thanks much for the summary. :)
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Ners - thanks much for the summary. :)
+1
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Everyone but Buzz could see jjj's talent.
I hope people here are right about JaJuan, because I didn't think his talent was that obvious at all. He looked like a freshman and a very ordinary one at that. I tend to believe all of the excitement about him is based off his reputation and top 50 status coming in.
To me, Dawson showed way more ability to play than JaJuan, and he was the least touted of last year's freshman.
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I hope people here are right about JaJuan, because I didn't think his talent was that obvious at all. He looked like a freshman and a very ordinary one at that. I tend to believe all of the excitement about him is based off his reputation and top 50 status coming in.
To me, Dawson showed way more ability to play than JaJuan, and he was the least touted of last year's freshman.
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Tend to agree. I saw him put up a bunch in CA versus Fullerton. That was about it.
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Under the Hillbilly's tutalage, Jujuan was going nowhere. Except to another university.
How much talent he has for a Division 1 level school remains to be seen. But I think the kid can play and hopefully this translates into something special.
Years ago, I thought the verdict on the Hillbilly's ability to coach was what happens with Vander Blue. Vander was a close-to-five-star recruit and one of the best the Hillbilly recruited. Vander's junior year showed the Hillbilly could coach high quality players (though the decision on the NBA draft may have been People's Exhibit I in demonstrating the Hillbilly was losing control of his team).
Wojo's ability to coach high level talent will in no small measure be contingent on the success he has with JuJuan.
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I hope people here are right about JaJuan, because I didn't think his talent was that obvious at all. He looked like a freshman and a very ordinary one at that. I tend to believe all of the excitement about him is based off his reputation and top 50 status coming in.
To me, Dawson showed way more ability to play than JaJuan, and he was the least touted of last year's freshman.
PM Ners through Scoop to receive your complementary "Dawson Sluper" t-shirt.
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Wojo's ability to coach high level talent will in no small measure be contingent on the success he has with JuJuan.
Any coach should be judged on how much they develop and improve their players, but I'm sure not going to tie whether Wojo can coach or not to Johnson. There are hits and misses all over the place in recruiting, and he wasn't even Wojo's recruit. If it becomes a trend of highly recruited guys not improving under Wojo, then we're talking about something different. But the litmus test won't be Johnson.
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PM Ners through Scoop to receive your complementary "Dawson Sluper" t-shirt.
A lot to like about Dawson, a lot.
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PM Ners through Scoop to receive your complementary "Dawson Sluper" t-shirt.
Haha Murs...no doubt I'm a HUGE Dawson fan...and President of his Scoop Fan Club. Might want to jump on board for that Dawson Slurper T-Shirt you mention, as demand will be stiff for them soon.
John will be a very good player at MU when all is said and done. Don't know if we'll get to see it as much as I'd like this upcoming season...but have zero doubt as a Junior John will be a key player on the team. He's a lot like Jerel McNeal...but with much better court vision...though perhaps not quite as quick as Jerel. Has a great feel for the game too.
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Sign me up for the pro Dawson club.
Politics or high major D1 coaching may be a solid backup career for this kid.
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Everyone but Buzz could see jjj's talent.
Buzz saw it. He and JJJ didn't get along though
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Buzz saw it. He and JJJ didn't get along though
Probably because when you make somebody playing time promises during their recruitment and tout them all throughout boot camp as being the toughest guy....and then barely play the kid....not surprised the 18 year old kid would lose respect for the adult who made promises he didn't keep.
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Hmm..not sure...but to summarize:
Dawson wasn't mad that Buzz left...understands it's a business..only question he really had for Buzz was "why?" Buzz didn't really have an answer. Said he learned from Buzz that he wasn't to be considered/or consider himself a freshman after December...Said he likes Wojo from first impressions - seems to really care about the guys as individuals...and mentioned liking that he played the game at high level...
Said he is working on his athleticism/quickness the most this offseason...along with his body in general.
Said Deonte could play linebacker for Green Bay - Dodds led him in that direction with the question. Said Deonte is a crazy good athlete - probably 240 lbs. Said he asked Deonte why he didn't play football...said because he just didn't play it growing up..
Asked how JJJ was doing - Said in the weight room a ton, in the gym a ton. A gym rat. Dodds compared him as a freshman to Vander as a freshman - Dawson feels JJJ has more upside than Vander. Said out of all the now sophomores he has all the tools to play at next level - good shot, first step, athleticism, mid range game.
Regarding Duane - Said he's been working hard...probably has put on roughly 13lbs since arriving at MU...is a great athlete...was still recovering from his injury for most of last season..but doing really well...and was looking forward to all of them being able to play together at some point.
Mentioned the guys wanting to win a national championship - of course all players want this...yet there was almost an expectant tone in the way John said - like they genuinely believe they can be that good....so much has to break the right way...but...if all those guys stay at MU for 4 years total...as seniors...they should be really damn good.
Thanks for the summary! I'd be interested to hear the reactions now since that audio was from a few months ago.
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Probably because when you make somebody playing time promises during their recruitment and tout them all throughout boot camp as being the toughest guy....and then barely play the kid....not surprised the 18 year old kid would lose respect for the adult who made promises he didn't keep.
Honestly don't know any of the details. It is either Buzz' or JJJ's issue depending on who you talk to. Probably truth to both
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PM Ners through Scoop to receive your complementary "Dawson Sluper" t-shirt.
(http://img.pandawhale.com/52559-samuel-l-jackson-drinking-pulp-5mhC.gif)
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Any coach should be judged on how much they develop and improve their players, but I'm sure not going to tie whether Wojo can coach or not to Johnson. There are hits and misses all over the place in recruiting, and he wasn't even Wojo's recruit. If it becomes a trend of highly recruited guys not improving under Wojo, then we're talking about something different. But the litmus test won't be Johnson.
Theoretically, I agree. But Jujuan was a high-level recruit and a highly visible one. If he grows and becomes a leader on our team, a Lloyd, a Butch, a Doc, a Tony Smith etc., Wojo will be visible and demonstrate his worth with high level recruits. If he doesn't, then the questions will start.
Bring in two or three five star recruits, make them NBA ready and no one will care about any failure with Jujuan. But I think Jujuan is a talented young man and can mean a lot to our team, now.
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Probably because when you make somebody playing time promises during their recruitment and tout them all throughout boot camp as being the toughest guy....and then barely play the kid....not surprised the 18 year old kid would lose respect for the adult who made promises he didn't keep.
How do you know that Buzz made "playing time promises" to JJJ?
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How do you know that Buzz made "playing time promises" to JJJ?
I have several sources very close to the program who have indicated as much. #donedeal. But your boy Ganzer isn't one of them.
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I have several sources very close to the program who have indicated as much. #donedeal. But your boy Ganzer isn't one of them.
I just asked a question. Not sure why you needed to take a shot at IWB in the process.
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I have several sources very close to the program who have indicated as much. #donedeal. But your boy Ganzer isn't one of them.
Who knows what was promised or not. McKay certainly thought he was going to be used differently. Did Buzz promise him he would play small forward or did he talk about how he like to use him at small forward? Right now Wojo is selling his vision for the MU program. Telling a player how he envisions him being used in the program is not necessarily the same as a promise although I could see a young player could taking it that way.
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What'd he say about Derrick?
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Most likely scenario is a combination of Buzz leading JJJ on and JJJ hearing what he wanted to hear....or it having nothing to do with playing time.
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What'd he say about Derrick?
You're going to hell. Unfortunately, you're probably taking your fellow readers of this thread along for the ride.
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Most likely scenario is a combination of Buzz leading JJJ on and JJJ hearing what he wanted to hear....or it having nothing to do with playing time.
Paint Touches did a good recap on JJJ's season and the peculiarities of his playing time. Funny Buzz would say "who plays here?" The toughest guys...then cite JJJ as the toughest out of boot camp...and then midway through non conference season start playing mind games with his playing time...and then totally mindf'ing JJJ during conference play.
http://painttouches.com/2014/05/06/marquette-year-in-review-jajuan-johnson/
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I think it was against Villanova, but I may be wrong. In one of the mid-season conference games, there was an extended period of play without TV timeouts. The other team was making a run during this stretch. When play finally stopped, Buzz did a mass substitution. JJJ came in and the first time he touched the ball, 20 seconds in, shot a 1 pass, no conscience 3. I remember coming out of my seat yelling at the screen. Buzz sat him down quickly and JJJ was relegated to garbage time after that. Fair to pull him out of that game immediately? Yes. Fair to bury him at the end of the bench? I don't know. He wasn't the first freshman to run afoul of a coach this way and I doubt he will be the last.
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Honestly don't know any of the details. It is either Buzz' or JJJ's issue depending on who you talk to. Probably truth to both
Always slurping the Buzzster. Make it simple: It is either Buzz's way or the Highway.
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(http://img.pandawhale.com/52559-samuel-l-jackson-drinking-pulp-5mhC.gif)
Ah yes--Jules slurping a Big Kahuna drink after sampling the punk's Big Kahuna Burger. Wonder which he and Vincent Vega preferred, the Big Kahuna or the Royale with Cheese?
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Haha Murs...no doubt I'm a HUGE Dawson fan...and President of his Scoop Fan Club. Might want to jump on board for that Dawson Slurper T-Shirt you mention, as demand will be stiff for them soon.
John will be a very good player at MU when all is said and done. Don't know if we'll get to see it as much as I'd like this upcoming season...but have zero doubt as a Junior John will be a key player on the team. He's a lot like Jerel McNeal...but with much better court vision...though perhaps not quite as quick as Jerel. Has a great feel for the game too.
I can't even take credit for the idea. You outed yourself to great acclaim in the "Who do you slurp for", thread.
Here's hoping that John doesn't get lost in the shuffle for a year due to Carlino. I see the Jerel comparison breaking down when it comes to steals, though. Jerel was a savant at that.
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I think it was against Villanova, but I may be wrong. In one of the mid-season conference games, there was an extended period of play without TV timeouts. The other team was making a run during this stretch. When play finally stopped, Buzz did a mass substitution. JJJ came in and the first time he touched the ball, 20 seconds in, shot a 1 pass, no conscience 3. I remember coming out of my seat yelling at the screen. Buzz sat him down quickly and JJJ was relegated to garbage time after that. Fair to pull him out of that game immediately? Yes. Fair to bury him at the end of the bench? I don't know. He wasn't the first freshman to run afoul of a coach this way and I doubt he will be the last.
That's what shooting guards are supposed to do. And...when you are JJJ and have NO idea if you might see anymore minutes for God knows how long...yeah...you just might want to get up a shot when you have the chance. Think Dawson did that a little bit last season too - as their playing time was so limited/choppy/sporadic - that you want to show what you can do when given a chance.
And let's face it...we didn't really excel running half court offense last year...to where we could usually work a possession into a good shot opportunity. Shooting a shot early in a possession doesn't make it a bad shot...hell even Bo Ryan allows it. ;D
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It was context, Ners. In the context of the game, in the flow of the game, it was a boneheaded freshman mistake. And if JJJ's attitude was as you say, one where he figured he didn't know when his next playing time was going to be so he should jack up the first available shot, then he didn't deserve to be on the floor and Buzz was right to bench him. And I would EXPECT a coach to treat a freshman like that if that was the freshman's attitude. What would Knight, K, Dean, Boeheim have done to a freshman who did that? Hopefully, JJJ and Wojo reach a better understanding going forward and it can be looked back on as a learning experience.
As I re-read your post, are you actually defending the notion that it is ok for a player to come in and jack up bad shots since he doesn't know when his next playing time might be?
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It was context, Ners. In the context of the game, in the flow of the game, it was a boneheaded freshman mistake. And if JJJ's attitude was as you say, one where he figured he didn't know when his next playing time was going to be so he should jack up the first available shot, then he didn't deserve to be on the floor and Buzz was right to bench him. And I would EXPECT a coach to treat a freshman like that if that was the freshman's attitude. What would Knight, K, Dean, Boeheim have done to a freshman who did that? Hopefully, JJJ and Wojo reach a better understanding going forward and it can be looked back on as a learning experience.
A 5-star recruit, at the shooting guard position...should pull the trigger on a good look from 3..regardless of the "context of the game." And yes, I get your point about "context of the game."
I have NO DOUBT Wojo and JJJ will click better...as Wojo played the game at this level, knows a players mentality far better than Buzz could understand. Here's a question? What do you think it does for a player..a freshman particularly..confidence...when they get yanked for making the slightest mistake? Think that promotes better play in the future? HELL NO. Guys play tight, in that type of coaching. The results last season speak for themselves...Buzz's coaching was awful. Only guys who got a fair and consistent shake (more than fair) where Derrick and Jake...ironically, probably the two least talented guys on the team.
Buzz had Mayo all messed up for most of the past season...(and career) till he finally just let him play 30+ every game regardless of if he had a boneheaded turnover early, an ill-advised shot, etc.
And unless you've ever been in a position where you are stuck behind a guy that you know you are far more talented than, and can produce at a higher level than...yet watch him pretty much flounder all season long...yeah...it gets a little frustrating for a player...just as it would for those in the professional workplace.
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Are you advocating coming and jacking up shots since you don't know when your next PT might be? And did Dekker getting yanked by Bo for every defensive lapse as a freshman affect his development?
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Are you advocating coming and jacking up shots since you don't know when your next PT might be? And did Dekker getting yanked by Bo for every defensive lapse as a freshman affect his development?
Can't speak to Dekker a whole lot...as I don't watch the Badgers unless against MU or their NCAA run last season...but I do recall seeing on the UW message board the other day that Dekker's cousin mentioned something to the effect of Dekker being over Bo...would have gone pro after this past season, had he not slumped down the stretch.
As for what I'm advocating: I'm advocating that as a 5-star shooting guard recruit - I don't have a problem with you taking an open 3 point shot...if it is 10 seconds into the possession, 20 seconds into the possession, or 30 seconds into the possession. (Unless of course we are end of game/time and score situation.)
But, would you answer my question: What do you think it does for a kids confidence when he gets yanked for the slightest mistake? What do you think it does for a kid, when he's constantly looking over his shoulder every time the horn sounds? Did you watch the guys on MU closely last year...I noticed numerous times players on the floor seeing guys go to the scorers table...saw when the horn blew...the guys on the floor looking toward scorers table.
The best coaches get an 8-9 man rotation, and unless some crazy sh$t happens, rarely deviate from it. The 3 to 4 subs generally replace the same player..at similar stages of a game. Consistency leads to chemistry and cohesion.
I do recall watching an Iowa State game randomly for about 15 game minutes last season...as I was curious to see if Matt Thomas was any good. Was amazed watching that game as he got about 9 minutes of run consecutively...jacked up 4 shots...missed them all..did nothing else of note...yet he still got his run in. Was like "Wow, that's the way a player wants to be able to play." Then again...Hoiberg played high major ball and NBA and saw how it works. Buzz? Please.
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Freshmen have been getting yanked for playing like freshmen since they have been eligible. It did not start with Buzz last year. Alford under Knight. Jordan under Dean. Dekker under Bo. Buzz's rotations and sub patterns were no different than they were in the S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East championship seasons. He consistently did not give extended play to freshmen. Yep, Buzz had transfers. Most programs do. And it is usually because a freshman comes in and thinks he is entitled to playing time and learns that he has to earn his minutes and do what the coach tells him. I am NOT saying all or any of that applies to JJJ. All I am saying as it pertains to JJJ is that he made a freshman decision in that moment and Buzz made a coach of a freshman decision.
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Freshmen have been getting yanked for playing like freshmen since they have been eligible. It did not start with Buzz last year. Alford under Knight. Jordan under Dean. Dekker under Bo. Buzz's rotations and sub patterns were no different than they were in the S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East championship seasons. He consistently did not give extended play to freshmen. Yep, Buzz had transfers. Most programs do. And it is usually because a freshman comes in and thinks he is entitled to playing time and learns that he has to earn his minutes and do what the coach tells him. I am NOT saying all or any of that applies to JJJ. All I am saying as it pertains to JJJ is that he made a freshman decision in that moment and Buzz made a coach of a freshman decision.
So where do you point the blame then if Buzz coached identically to his S-16, S-16, E-8 style? How do you go from E8 to missing the freaking NIT...when you return more letterwinners than at any time in your tenure as a coach? And don't say leadership - because leadership starts with Buzz.
But...Buzz was not nearly as maniacal with his subbing in any of those years you mention as he was last year. I've never seen anything like what I saw Buzz do last year in 30 years of playing/watching basketball closely.
And still would appreciate you answering my question as far as what you feel it does for a player when they know one mistake and it is bench city for me? Why do you think Todd Mayo looked like a totally different player the last 15 games of the year? And he's a freaking junior...it was because for the first time in Todd's career at MU...Buzz just let him run, and run, and run...regardless of his mistakes...as he got in his rhythm...mistakes reduced, confidence grew...and results beared it out....it matters how a coach coaches. A hairline trigger is not a good policy for coaching success...and Buzz was way more quick trigger subbing last year than any of his previous 5.
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I feel like I just woke up in January...
If it was a dumb shot/play then it was dumb. If it was against the coach's plan/wishes, then JJJ was wrong. Was JJJ wrong in that one instance? Probably. Was Buzz crazy all season? Yes. Can't we just agree on those points?
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So where do you point the blame then if Buzz coached identically to his S-16, S-16, E-8 style? How do you go from E8 to missing the freaking NIT...when you return more letterwinners than at any time in your tenure as a coach? And don't say leadership - because leadership starts with Buzz.
Because there were no adequate replacements for the three backcourt starters that he lost.
And Mayo's issues last year were the result of Mayo. He is solely responsible for why Buzz didn't trust him early.
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As for what I'm advocating: I'm advocating that as a 5-star shooting guard recruit - I don't have a problem with you taking an open 3 point shot...if it is 10 seconds into the possession, 20 seconds into the possession, or 30 seconds into the possession. (Unless of course we are end of game/time and score situation.)
So are you saying that highly touted freshmen play within a different system than other freshmen? What about a 4 star? A 3 star? Do they not get the same latitude that JJJ has?
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Because there were no adequate replacements for the three backcourt starters that he lost.
And Mayo's issues last year were the result of Mayo. He is solely responsible for why Buzz didn't trust him early.
LOL - No adequate replacements for Junior, Vander and Trent? Please.
Mayo should have been playing 33 minutes a game all year like Vander got as a junior...regardless of if "Buzz trusted him." If he did..Todd's numbers would have been better across the board than Vander in every category. Don't make me pull the statsheet side by side comparison of the two again. Jake should have been a back up...and perhaps the 3rd backup to Mayo after JJJ.
Replacing Lockett? Really - About 80% of this board wanted him benched in the middle of February. He played better the last month of the season...yet somehow...I'm quite confident if Deonte Burton got 25 minutes a game all year last year..he'd have made us forget about Trent pretty quick.
And lastly...Dawson could have put up numbers similar to Junior if he was given 28 minutes a game like Junior got. How do I know? Because in watching Junior and Dawson...there isn't really anything Junior did better than what Dawson can do. Junior isn't any quicker. Junior doesn't shoot it better. Both are good in transition, seeing the floor...
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Freshmen have been getting yanked for playing like freshmen since they have been eligible. It did not start with Buzz last year. Alford under Knight. Jordan under Dean. Dekker under Bo. Buzz's rotations and sub patterns were no different than they were in the S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East championship seasons. He consistently did not give extended play to freshmen. Yep, Buzz had transfers. Most programs do. And it is usually because a freshman comes in and thinks he is entitled to playing time and learns that he has to earn his minutes and do what the coach tells him. I am NOT saying all or any of that applies to JJJ. All I am saying as it pertains to JJJ is that he made a freshman decision in that moment and Buzz made a coach of a freshman decision.
+10,000. Every word you wrote is true. When the talent is down and you lose rather than win most of the tight games people say the guy they thought was a genius somehow did a 180 and became a fool, a maniac, a tanker of games. Those people are, of course, totally irrational, but whatever helps them sleep at night.
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So are you saying that highly touted freshmen play within a different system than other freshmen? What about a 4 star? A 3 star? Do they not get the same latitude that JJJ has?
No...the point is as a SHOOTING GUARD.. you have a good look...you shoot the ball...especially when you play on a team with a totally inept PG...It is only MORE EGREGIOUS coaching when the player in question is a 5 star recruit at the position. To coach a team to pass up open shots...is ridiculous.
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+10,000. Every word you wrote is true. When the talent is down and you lose rather than win most of the tight games people say the guy they thought was a genius somehow did a 180 and became a fool, a maniac, a tanker of games. Those people are, of course, totally irrational, but whatever helps them sleep at night.
LOL - But the talent wasn't down. Lenny...just give it up on Buzz. He was awful last year..doesn't change the fact he was great his first 5 years. But to constantly take up for him, and act as if he's beyond reproach truly is becoming as insufferable as Chico's 6 year defense of Tom Crean. I sure hope you don't go down that road.
I damn well know you had ZERO thought going into last season we'd miss the freaking NIT. Wish I could search and find your pre-season prediction for last season...if you made one...I"m quite sure it would have included an NCAA bid, perhaps Big East Championship and another Sweet 16 run....as you were supremely confident in Buzz.
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LOL - No adequate replacements for Junior, Vander and Trent? Please.
Mayo should have been playing 33 minutes a game all year like Vander got as a junior...regardless of if "Buzz trusted him." If he did..Todd's numbers would have been better across the board than Vander in every category. Don't make me pull the statsheet side by side comparison of the two again. Jake should have been a back up...and perhaps the 3rd backup to Mayo after JJJ.
Replacing Lockett? Really - About 80% of this board wanted him benched in the middle of February. He played better the last month of the season...yet somehow...I'm quite confident if Deonte Burton got 25 minutes a game all year last year..he'd have made us forget about Trent pretty quick.
And lastly...Dawson could have put up numbers similar to Junior if he was given 28 minutes a game like Junior got. How do I know? Because in watching Junior and Dawson...there isn't really anything Junior did better than what Dawson can do. Junior isn't any quicker. Junior doesn't shoot it better. Both are good in transition, seeing the floor...
I can entertain the Todd/Vander comparison even though I disagree.
Burton replacing Lockett? Defensively? No chance. Offensively? Probably an improvement. Sure.
But the comparison of Junior and Dawson is ludicrous. I'll give you that Dawson is probably a better shooter, even though the numbers don't really represent that. Also, Junior was far superior to Dawson as a driver and passer even in his first full year as a sophomore. Can Dawson get to that level and exceed it? Definitely. But it's not even close at this point.
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Ah yes--Jules slurping a Big Kahuna drink after sampling the punk's Big Kahuna Burger. Wonder which he and Vincent Vega preferred, the Big Kahuna or the Royale with Cheese?
No question, Willie. Big Kahuna 8 days a week.
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No...the point is as a SHOOTING GUARD.. you have a good look...you shoot the ball...especially when you play on a team with a totally inept PG...It is only MORE EGREGIOUS coaching when the player in question is a 5 star recruit at the position. To coach a team to pass up open shots...is ridiculous.
Yes, it is ridiculous. However, if Buzz didn't want JJJ to shoot it and JJJ did anyway, then yes, JJJ was wrong and should be benched. And it also makes Buzz crazy. Both were in the wrong - it's okay to admit.
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Always slurping the Buzzster. Make it simple: It is either Buzz's way or the Highway.
Well, he's the coach....isn't that how it usually is? Do players often get to make decisions on how much playing time they get?
I'm not saying Buzz' allotment of playing time was correct. I have repeatedly questioned many of his decisions. I wanted more Burton, more Dawson, and more Mayo with less Derrick and less Juan. I didn't have an opinion with JJJ or Taylor because I didn't have enough data on either to make a true judgement of their abilities.
When my boss gives me an order, I do it. I don't gripe or complain (at least not loudly), I just do my best work in hopes that it will get recognized so I can be trusted with more fulfilling work. I imagine you do the same at your work Willie. Same applies on the basketball court. If coach doesn't give you the playing time you think you deserve, don't complain, take the time you get and make it count. Be better than everyone else so you can earn that playing time.
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LOL - No adequate replacements for Junior, Vander and Trent? Please.
Mayo should have been playing 33 minutes a game all year like Vander got as a junior...regardless of if "Buzz trusted him." If he did..Todd's numbers would have been better across the board than Vander in every category. Don't make me pull the statsheet side by side comparison of the two again. Jake should have been a back up...and perhaps the 3rd backup to Mayo after JJJ.
Replacing Lockett? Really - About 80% of this board wanted him benched in the middle of February. He played better the last month of the season...yet somehow...I'm quite confident if Deonte Burton got 25 minutes a game all year last year..he'd have made us forget about Trent pretty quick.
And lastly...Dawson could have put up numbers similar to Junior if he was given 28 minutes a game like Junior got. How do I know? Because in watching Junior and Dawson...there isn't really anything Junior did better than what Dawson can do. Junior isn't any quicker. Junior doesn't shoot it better. Both are good in transition, seeing the floor...
Mayo could have replaced Vander. But as I said earlier, the reason he didn't start and play more was all on him.
But the Lockett / Burton and the Junior / Dawson comparisons are laughable. You are talking about two senior players who each started at least for two years on a conference champion and Elite 8 team. And you think freshmen are adequate replacements?? Cmon...
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No...the point is as a SHOOTING GUARD.. you have a good look...you shoot the ball...especially when you play on a team with a totally inept PG...It is only MORE EGREGIOUS coaching when the player in question is a 5 star recruit at the position. To coach a team to pass up open shots...is ridiculous.
I doubt that Buzz coached the team "to pass up open shots." The problem is that a couple of times he didn't have good looks, but shot anyway.
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Mayo could have replaced Vander. But as I said earlier, the reason he didn't start and play more was all on him.
But the Lockett / Burton and the Junior / Dawson comparisons are laughable. You are talking about two senior players who each started at least for two years on a conference champion and Elite 8 team. And you think freshmen are adequate replacements?? Cmon...
I agree with Sultan's comments on Mayo. Todd is/was an immature individual. Hopefully he is growing in his maturity. That, coupled with his high level basketball potential might set the stage for a break out senior year.
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I agree with Sultan's comments on Mayo. Todd is/was an immature individual. Hopefully he is growing in his maturity. That, coupled with his high level basketball potential might set the stage for a break out senior year.
And he grew a lot during last year. The reason he played more toward the end of the year wasn't just because of his on court success. I think the coaching change was good for him and I agree...I expect big things from him this year.
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I hope Todd's maturity as a person parallel's Vander's. Let me explain....
When Vander showed up as a freshman, by his own admission, he was a punk. He was rude to staff, and not accepting of the help that was there to help him grow as a student athlete.
By time his junior year rolled around he had come close to full circle, and began to really appreciate that people in the athletic department were there to help him. Notably, the academic advisors. He came to them and told them how wrong he was as a freshman, and how appreciative he was of all the assistance they were willing to give him.
I am hopeful Todd is making this same leap in his maturity. If so, it will benefit him greatly on and off the court.
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Well, he's the coach....isn't that how it usually is? Do players often get to make decisions on how much playing time they get?
I'm not saying Buzz' allotment of playing time was correct. I have repeatedly questioned many of his decisions. I wanted more Burton, more Dawson, and more Mayo with less Derrick and less Juan. I didn't have an opinion with JJJ or Taylor because I didn't have enough data on either to make a true judgement of their abilities.
When my boss gives me an order, I do it. I don't gripe or complain (at least not loudly), I just do my best work in hopes that it will get recognized so I can be trusted with more fulfilling work. I imagine you do the same at your work Willie. Same applies on the basketball court. If coach doesn't give you the playing time you think you deserve, don't complain, take the time you get and make it count. Be better than everyone else so you can earn that playing time.
Good bosses solicit their people's input, listen, and if sound, shift. Not Buzz's way--his way or the highway. Ask those that transferred, ask dawson, ask Mayo, ask Du. Wilson, etc.
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Mayo could have replaced Vander. But as I said earlier, the reason he didn't start and play more was all on him.
But the Lockett / Burton and the Junior / Dawson comparisons are laughable. You are talking about two senior players who each started at least for two years on a conference champion and Elite 8 team. And you think freshmen are adequate replacements?? Cmon...
Out of curiousity, what did Mayo (behaviorally) all of a sudden do after the St. John's game on February 1 where he got 12 minutes, to getting 29 minutes the next game against Butler and then playing more than 27 minutes per game in 9 of the 10 remaining games....when prior to that all season he had exactly 2 games out of 20 where he played more than 27 (29 minutes against OSU and DePaul)? Why was he behaving well enough to play 29 against OSU....but then not well enough thereafter to get those type of minutes consistently?
And please - Lockett was a role player/glue guy. Burton could have easily filled that role last year...yes...as a FRESHMAN.
Not surprised the Dawson comment was met with some resistance...I stand by it...if Dawson was given 28 minutes a night like Cadougan got...I have no doubt he could have averaged 8.5ppg and 3.8apg. Junior was no stalwart defensively either. Dawson had the 2nd best defensive rating on the team after Derrick last year....yet those of you who dissent against him....use the eye test when viewing him defensively and saying he struggled....yet...when I use the eye test looking at him offensively..though the stats may not totally bear my conclusions out..that eye test then becomes irrelevant.
Cadougan was no superstar AT ALL. The issue is that his replacement last year was SO BAD...virtually historically bad....it made Cadougan seem so much more valuable. There are a lot of freshman who can average 8.5ppg and 3.8apg if given 28 minutes of PT...
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Out of curiousity, what did Mayo (behaviorally) all of a sudden do after the St. John's game on February 1 where he got 12 minutes, to getting 29 minutes the next game against Butler and then playing more than 27 minutes per game in 9 of the 10 remaining games....when prior to that all season he had exactly 2 games out of 20 where he played more than 27 (29 minutes against OSU and DePaul)? Why was he behaving well enough to play 29 against OSU....but then not well enough thereafter to get those type of minutes consistently?
And please - Lockett was a role player/glue guy. Burton could have easily filled that role last year...yes...as a FRESHMAN.
Not surprised the Dawson comment was met with some resistance...I stand by it...if Dawson was given 28 minutes a night like Cadougan got...I have no doubt he could have averaged 8.5ppg and 3.8apg. Junior was no stalwart defensively either. Dawson had the 2nd best defensive rating on the team after Derrick last year....yet those of you who dissent against him....use the eye test when viewing him defensively and saying he struggled....yet...when I use the eye test looking at him offensively..though the stats may not totally bear my conclusions out..that eye test then becomes irrelevant.
Cadougan was no superstar AT ALL. The issue is that his replacement last year was SO BAD...virtually historically bad....it made Cadougan seem so much more valuable. There are a lot of freshman who can average 8.5ppg and 3.8apg if given 28 minutes of PT...
Time to move on, Dawson has more talent than Derrick, lets see how he uses it this year coming up. Cadougan won like 90 games or so at MU, he was fine. Dawson at times last year played like an inexperienced freshman, many turnovers, but point guards were not good. This is a new year with both back and Carlino and Duane plus a new coach. Lets see what Wojo
thinks of the group, we will know in 4 months who stands out and who does not. I am sure Wojo and the assistants watched all the games last year and have come up to some conclusions
about what to do this year. Lets see where they place Dawson this year.
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In Wojo's first few days/weeks on the job, he no doubt watched hours of film of our current players. Then, his first major move was to secure a transfer to start at PG on Day 1 next season. While any smart coach brings talent into his program when given the chance, the addition of Carlino wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of either of our returning PGs.
I have no idea how good Dawson can be and I don't know how Ners or anybody else can say with certainty that he's going to be great or even good.
He might be great one day. He might be good. He might be a serviceable backup. He might barely play.
And so I go back to my two favorite words in these situations: We'll see.
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Out of curiousity, what did Mayo (behaviorally) all of a sudden do after the St. John's game on February 1 where he got 12 minutes, to getting 29 minutes the next game against Butler and then playing more than 27 minutes per game in 9 of the 10 remaining games....when prior to that all season he had exactly 2 games out of 20 where he played more than 27 (29 minutes against OSU and DePaul)? Why was he behaving well enough to play 29 against OSU....but then not well enough thereafter to get those type of minutes consistently?
Let's just say that Mayo wasn't really being a good teammate and was continuing to make the same mistakes that got him into trouble the year before. If it wasn't for Buzz, and Todd's mom siding with him, Todd Mayo would have been out of Marquette two years ago.
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LOL - But the talent wasn't down.
At point guard (most important position) we replaced a 4* three year starter with a 2.5* two year back up. To back up at point, we replaced a sophomore 2.5* with a freshman 2.5*. At the other guard slots, we replaced a 4.5* two year starter and a 3.5* All Pac 12 super senior with a 2* walk on and a 3*guy who had never started, had multiple suspensions and had missed a semester due to academics. As Chico says, college basketball is a guards game, and the talent (and in one player's case, maturity) drop off in our backcourt last year was significant.
Our frontcourt talent was improved with the addition of Deonte, but he was a freshman. As good as he will be, he wasn't nearly enough to make up for what we lost at basketball's most important positions.
Sorry you find this analysis "insufferable", but I find yours ("Coaches picked us to win, we didn't, so the coach is either stupid or throwing games") to be long on petulance, anger and entitlement and devoid of any real analysis at all.
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Good bosses solicit their people's input, listen, and if sound, shift. Not Buzz's way--his way or the highway. Ask those that transferred, ask dawson, ask Mayo, ask Du. Wilson, etc.
Yes they do. But do you think that input is well received when it comes in the form of a demand or complaining?
(I have no idea if that is how it happened, merely speculating for debate's sake)
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At point guard (most important position) we replaced a 4* three year starter with a 2.5* two year back up. To back up at point, we replaced a sophomore 2.5* with a freshman 2.5*. At the other guard slots, we replaced a 4.5* two year starter and a 3.5* All Pac 12 super senior with a 2* walk on and a 3*guy who had never started, had multiple suspensions and had missed a semester due to academics. As Chico says, college basketball is a guards game, and the talent (and in one player's case, maturity) drop off in our backcourt last year was significant.
Our frontcourt talent was improved with the addition of Deonte, but he was a freshman. As good as he will be, he wasn't nearly enough to make up for what we lost at basketball's most important positions.
Sorry you find this analysis "insufferable", but I find yours ("Coaches picked us to win, we didn't, so the coach is either stupid or throwing games") to be long on petulance, anger and entitlement and devoid of any real analysis at all.
LOL - What is devoid of any real analysis is being so in love with a coach such as Chicos is with Crean, and you Buzz - that you can't step away from that love and objectively look at things.
As you know, I was right alongside you on Buzz for his first 5 years....it changed for me by January 1 of last season....when it was clear his EGO had grown WAY too big...and as a result it affected the team on the court. You and I both know you damn well didn't think MU would miss the freaking NIT. So who cares they didn't win the league...fine....but to miss the freaking NIT when your peers think you'll win the league title likely resulting in a 3 seed in the NCAA?
And please with the star ratings on players - you love to cite how Jimmy Butler was a no-name coming out of high school - yet he turned out pretty good, right? Jae Crowder?
The problem for you...is that you acknowledge PG is the most important position on the floor...and you had game after game after game of ineptitude....but swore all year things could get worse if Buzz just tried Dawson for 30 minutes....ironically the one game he did...he got very good results....and then thereafter never given close to a similar chance for the remainder of the year...all the while Buzz's preferred choice at PG continued to scuffle and cause the team to play 4 on 5 - Buzz's words. How in the hell, as a coach...do you really think your team can win at this level when you can see plain as day you are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end...say as much...yet refuse to make the change. The only thing that was consistent about Buzz last year was awarding max minutes to Derrick and Jake - the two most maligned guys on the team, and limited in talent. Peculiar....and in Buzz's peculiar world...I don't doubt that was his way of saying F you to the administration and the fans who started to question him....Guy is as thin skinned as they come...and character revealed...
But...as I said in another post....doesn't change the great work he did his first 5 years here...and he provided a lot of entertainment. But Jesus...give up the mancrush already....you are going straight down the road your adversary Chicos has gone. Starting to worry that 5 years from now, you'll still be riding Buzz's jock. Just wonder if Buzz fails at VaTech...if you'll be as quick to point that out, as you have been Crean struggling at times at IU?
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Let's just say that Mayo wasn't really being a good teammate and was continuing to make the same mistakes that got him into trouble the year before. If it wasn't for Buzz, and Todd's mom siding with him, Todd Mayo would have been out of Marquette two years ago.
I don't disagree with you about Buzz and Todd's Mom having a lot to do with Todd staying at MU...yet also think Buzz caused some of the drama with Todd in how he coached him.
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And please - Lockett was a role player/glue guy. Burton could have easily filled that role last year...yes...as a FRESHMAN.
Glue guy, yes. Role player, no. Lockett was much more sound defensively and had a much higher basketball IQ than Burton. In addition, Lockett had a better shot than Burton and was an absolute monster on the boards for a guy his size. By Burton's own admission, he was terrible at rebounding last season (which is why the comparisons to Charles "the Round Mound of Rebound" Barkley confuse me).
Given Lockett's minutes, Burton probably would have been able to score more than Lockett. He would not have provided any of the little "glue guy" things that Lockett did.
But remember, Lockett was a senior and Burton was a freshman, Burton could very well pass Lockett over the next three years, but not when comparing their Senior and Freshmen years. I look forward to seeing what Burton can do next season, I think he is going to be something really special.
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I don't disagree with you about Buzz and Todd's Mom having a lot to do with Todd staying at MU...yet also think Buzz caused some of the drama with Todd in how he coached him.
On Todd, he is about 25 years old, he will have all the chance in the world to play 30 minutes a game next year. Lets see how this plays out as well. Carlino, Todd, Burton, Taylor and Fisher
might be pretty good, add Duane and JJJ ao maybe Dawson and you have a solid 8 players. Cohen, Juan and Derrick should be at the back end of the bench.
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Glue guy, yes. Role player, no. Lockett was much more sound defensively and had a much higher basketball IQ than Burton. In addition, Lockett had a better shot than Burton and was an absolute monster on the boards for a guy his size. By Burton's own admission, he was terrible at rebounding last season (which is why the comparisons to Charles "the Round Mound of Rebound" Barkley confuse me).
Given Lockett's minutes, Burton probably would have been able to score more than Lockett. He would not have provided any of the little "glue guy" things that Lockett did.
But remember, Lockett was a senior and Burton was a freshman, Burton could very well pass Lockett over the next three years, but not when comparing their Senior and Freshmen years. I look forward to seeing what Burton can do next season, I think he is going to be something really special.
Nice try. If you can get past your bias...and look objectively at their side by side comparison...Burton OWNS Lockett...even as a freshman. Say what you want about Burton's defense...but the guy is freaking disruptive...a hell of a lot more than Lockett. I like guys that show up in the f'in box score...you and some here seem to like guys who "do all the little things" that never show up in a box score....Johnny Hustle types...production matters, right?? I mean Burton averaged 12 minutes a game?? Are you kidding me Buzz? Lockett got 26..
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=2-deonte-burton&p1=trent-lockett
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On Todd, he is about 25 years old, he will have all the chance in the world to play 30 minutes a game next year. Lets see how this plays out as well. Carlino, Todd, Burton, Taylor and Fisher
might be pretty good, add Duane and JJJ ao maybe Dawson and you have a solid 8 players. Cohen, Juan and Derrick should be at the back end of the bench.
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Agree...on bolded... And Todd will have a great year this season. I have no doubt. And believe he's just 23...the typical age of most UW senior players. ;D
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Nice try. If you can get past your bias...and look objectively at their side by side comparison...Burton OWNS Lockett...even as a freshman. Say what you want about Burton's defense...but the guy is freaking disruptive...a hell of a lot more than Lockett. I like guys that show up in the f'in box score...you and some here seem to like guys who "do all the little things" that never show up in a box score....Johnny Hustle types...production matters, right?? I mean Burton averaged 12 minutes a game?? Are you kidding me Buzz? Lockett got 26..
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=2-deonte-burton&p1=trent-lockett
Was there something in there that you wanted me to see? Because I read the same stat sheet and see Lockett as the superior player. I see nothing that dispute the points I made. Burton's a better scorer but Lockett has a better offensive rating. Lockett is a much better passer and rebounder. Burton is more disruptive but an inferior defender who fouls way too often.
Burton could make up for the scoring Lockett provided but not the other things he did on the court.
I'm also not certain what bias you are talking about. I've been very pro Burton all season.
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Was there something in there that you wanted me to see? Because I read the same stat sheet and see Lockett as the superior player. I see nothing that dispute the points I made. Burton's a better scorer but Lockett has a better offensive rating. Lockett is a much better passer and rebounder. Burton is more disruptive but an inferior defender who fouls way too often.
Burton could make up for the scoring Lockett provided but not the other things he did on the court.
I'm also not certain what bias you are talking about. I've been very pro Burton all season.
And Burton at the end of four years will be the much better player. But he wasn't better last year.
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Was there something in there that you wanted me to see? Because I read the same stat sheet and see Lockett as the superior player. I see nothing that dispute the points I made. Burton's a better scorer but Lockett has a better offensive rating. Lockett is a much better passer and rebounder. Burton is more disruptive but an inferior defender who fouls way too often.
Burton could make up for the scoring Lockett provided but not the other things he did on the court.
I'm also not certain what bias you are talking about. I've been very pro Burton all season.
Lockett played one year at MU, Burton has 3 more, lets compare the two when he is a senior. Burton is already better than Lockett offensively, the rest of the game Lockett was better, he
was the glue at the end of the year and make some great plays. Where is Lockett playing, Europe?
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LOL - What is devoid of any real analysis is being so in love with a coach such as Chicos is with Crean, and you Buzz - that you can't step away from that love and objectively look at things.
As you know, I was right alongside you on Buzz for his first 5 years....it changed for me by January 1 of last season....when it was clear his EGO had grown WAY too big...and as a result it affected the team on the court. You and I both know you damn well didn't think MU would miss the freaking NIT. So who cares they didn't win the league...fine....but to miss the freaking NIT when your peers think you'll win the league title likely resulting in a 3 seed in the NCAA?
And please with the star ratings on players - you love to cite how Jimmy Butler was a no-name coming out of high school - yet he turned out pretty good, right? Jae Crowder?
The problem for you...is that you acknowledge PG is the most important position on the floor...and you had game after game after game of ineptitude....but swore all year things could get worse if Buzz just tried Dawson for 30 minutes....ironically the one game he did...he got very good results....and then thereafter never given close to a similar chance for the remainder of the year...all the while Buzz's preferred choice at PG continued to scuffle and cause the team to play 4 on 5 - Buzz's words. How in the hell, as a coach...do you really think your team can win at this level when you can see plain as day you are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end...say as much...yet refuse to make the change. The only thing that was consistent about Buzz last year was awarding max minutes to Derrick and Jake - the two most maligned guys on the team, and limited in talent. Peculiar....and in Buzz's peculiar world...I don't doubt that was his way of saying F you to the administration and the fans who started to question him....Guy is as thin skinned as they come...and character revealed...
But...as I said in another post....doesn't change the great work he did his first 5 years here...and he provided a lot of entertainment. But Jesus...give up the mancrush already....you are going straight down the road your adversary Chicos has gone. Starting to worry that 5 years from now, you'll still be riding Buzz's jock. Just wonder if Buzz fails at VaTech...if you'll be as quick to point that out, as you have been Crean struggling at times at IU?
This is sadly typical of what has become of you. Again, you offer no analysis. Just a bunch of infantile personal attacks and a tiresome reassertion of lots of really dumb things capped by the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop - that Buzz was losing on purpose to say F you to the administration.
As for Buzz at VT, I expect him to do better than his predecessors and improve the program significantly. It's what he did at Marquette. But if you're right that Buzz somehow morphed (on January 1, 2014, no less) from a great guy and brilliant young basketball coach into an evil ego maniac incapable of seeing what was obvious even to know nothings like yourself, he'll be a colossal failure.
Wanna bet?
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This is sadly typical of what has become of you. Again, you offer no analysis. Just a bunch of infantile personal attacks and a tiresome reassertion of lots of really dumb things capped by the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop - that Buzz was losing on purpose to say F you to the administration.
As for Buzz at VT, I expect him to do better than his predecessors and improve the program significantly. It's what he did at Marquette. But if you're right that Buzz somehow morphed (on January 1, 2014, no less) from a great guy and brilliant young basketball coach into an evil ego maniac incapable of seeing what was obvious even to know nothings like yourself, he'll be a colossal failure.
Wanna bet?
I give you credit for reading his screed.
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Lockett played one year at MU, Burton has 3 more, lets compare the two when he is a senior. Burton is already better than Lockett offensively, the rest of the game Lockett was better, he
was the glue at the end of the year and make some great plays. Where is Lockett playing, Europe?
I absolutely agree. Burton will be the far superior player when all is said and done
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Was there something in there that you wanted me to see? Because I read the same stat sheet and see Lockett as the superior player. I see nothing that dispute the points I made. Burton's a better scorer but Lockett has a better offensive rating. Lockett is a much better passer and rebounder. Burton is more disruptive but an inferior defender who fouls way too often.
Burton could make up for the scoring Lockett provided but not the other things he did on the court.
I'm also not certain what bias you are talking about. I've been very pro Burton all season.
Think you got the players mixed up as you read comparison...the guy in first column was Lockett...2nd column Burton.
If not a mix up on your part...this is just further evidence and comedy of your inability to look at things objectively...Burton blows Lockett away...even as a freshman in side by side comparison.
Minutes: Burton 402 Lockett 931 (more than twice the minutes)
Burton O Rating 101.4 Lockett 99.7
Points per 40 minutes 22.1, Lockett 10.5 (Yes...2 times the scorer..but okay he's worse.)
FG% Burton 47.8 Lockett 41.5%
3 PT Shooting: Burton 50% Lockett 33.3%
EFG% Burton 48.9% Lockett 44%
Better Offensive Rebounder than Lockett - have to look at Rebound % as Rebounds per game is totally skewed due to Lockett playing 2 times the minutes. Lockett has edge as defensive rebounder.
Steals: Burton 35, Lockett 25 - Yes...10 more steals in half the minutes...but who cares? Burton btw was 5th of all college basketball players in Steal %...but yea...he sucks as a defender.
Blocks: Burton 14, Lockett 15 - same number but in half the minutes..
Turnovers: Lockett was a turnover machine. 24.6%. Burton 14.4%
So..Lockett shoots a worse percentage, scores at half the rate, turns the ball over significantly more, steals the ball 10 times less in a season...than Burton..yet playes twice as many minutes...and blocks the same number of shots for the season?
Ahh...okay...we really had a major fall off losing Lockett...when Burton was on the roster.
The problem of course...which we can agree on..was again Buzz being an idiot and not playing Burton 25...or his other most talented guys the most minutes.
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This is sadly typical of what has become of you. Again, you offer no analysis. Just a bunch of infantile personal attacks and a tiresome reassertion of lots of really dumb things capped by the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop - that Buzz was losing on purpose to say F you to the administration.
As for Buzz at VT, I expect him to do better than his predecessors and improve the program significantly. It's what he did at Marquette. But if you're right that Buzz somehow morphed (on January 1, 2014, no less) from a great guy and brilliant young basketball coach into an evil ego maniac incapable of seeing what was obvious even to know nothings like yourself, he'll be a colossal failure.
Wanna bet?
Ironic. You do realize that for as much as you harpoon Chicos about Crean...and Chicos can't give an inch in his manlove for Tom...the same applies to you with Buzz?
And no, Buzz didn't just totally become a bad guy January 1, 2014 - he evolved into an ego maniac over his 5 years at MU...just the same as Crean did..to which..you can't get over what a prick Tom Crean could be. There was the odd and rude interview with Mac in Year 1. Cutting DJ Newbill for Jamil in year 2. The sexual assault issue...and possible cover up/team meeting in Year 3.
He wasn't a saint Lenny. Jesus. And at the first sign of adversity at MU...when his balls weren't being licked by everyone....he was too thin skinned and had to bail....and let's face it...at least freaking Crean went to a Blueblood. Buzz? To the exact opposite that had virtually everyone in the media saying WTF? Why?
The reason why? Because Buzz can't handle high expectations for his teams...has to be an underdog...basically said as much in his latest interview with Gary Parrish...sure doesn't sound like a winner? And as for your offered bet - of course I won't take it for this very reason...Buzz is at a place where it really can't get any worse...just the way he wanted it..no pressure.
Your hypocrisy in how you view Buzz and Tom Crean is really pretty sad. Both basically are the same guy....perhaps Buzz the slight edge in overall humanitarian side..but by and large..both insecure, ego maniacs.
Last thought..for as much crap as we gave Chicos for the 2004 team missing the NCAA after being in the Final Four the year before...you don't find it at all ironic that you can't put any blame on Buzz for us missing the NIT after being an Elite 8 team..and Buzz returning more years of experience to his roster than ever before - simply because Buzz had a 2.5 star PG that he recruited as his starter for that season? Please.
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Why can't we agree that Buzz was crazy/dumb and JJJ didn't do what his coach wanted him to do?
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Ners, you do understand that percentages tend to drop as minutes increase correct? You also do understand that there is more to to defense than blocks and steals right? You also understand that because Burton's usage rate was so high that it exaggerates his offensive stats? You also understand that there is more to offense than scoring correct? You also understand that Lockett played on a much better team against much better competition and that will drag his stats down?
Ners, why are you so offended when people disagree with you on small details that you feel the need to insult people? We all agree that Burton is going to be great, isn't that enough?
You have a history of setting really high expectations for players. That's fine until you lash out at others who don't agree and in some cases tear down the players when they don't meet your lofty expectations.
I treat your opinions with respect, I ask that you do the same.
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Ironic. You do realize that for as much as you harpoon Chicos about Crean...and Chicos can't give an inch in his manlove for Tom...the same applies to you with Buzz?
And no, Buzz didn't just totally become a bad guy January 1, 2014 - he evolved into an ego maniac over his 5 years at MU...just the same as Crean did..to which..you can't get over what a prick Tom Crean could be. There was the odd and rude interview with Mac in Year 1. Cutting DJ Newbill for Jamil in year 2. The sexual assault issue...and possible cover up/team meeting in Year 3.
He wasn't a saint Lenny.
Want irony? Want hypocrisy? Read what you just wrote. NOW, you're troubled by the Buzz/Mac interview (I was at the time and said as much). NOW, you're troubled by what you NOW call "cutting" DJ Newbill for Jamil. NOW, you're troubled by what part you think Buzz played in a possible cover up in the sexual assault allegations (correct answer = no part as there was no cover up). When Buzz was winning you were his best pal, begging him to stay in emails. NOW, it's good riddance. When Buzz was winning you defended his character and attacked his detractors. NOW, he's a phony and a coward. When Buzz was winning, he was a great coach with a keen eye for talent. NOW, he plays guys who should be nailed to the bench over guys who are obviously better. When Buzz was winning, he was the very definition of a competitor and his teams reflected that. NOW, he's a quitter who was likely throwing games.
You backed him 1000% when he won. He was larger than life to you, could do no wrong. NOW, after one poor season, you attack him on all fronts. You're a frontrunner and a hypocrite. Mock me all you want for not joining you - I don't play that game.
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Want irony? Want hypocrisy? Read what you just wrote. NOW, you're troubled by the Buzz/Mac interview (I was at the time and said as much). NOW, you're troubled by what you NOW call "cutting" DJ Newbill for Jamil. NOW, you're troubled by what part you think Buzz played in a possible cover up in the sexual assault allegations (correct answer = no part as there was no cover up). When Buzz was winning you were his best pal, begging him to stay in emails. NOW, it's good riddance. When Buzz was winning you defended his character and attacked his detractors. NOW, he's a phony and a coward. When Buzz was winning, he was a great coach with a keen eye for talent. NOW, he plays guys who should be nailed to the bench over guys who are obviously better. When Buzz was winning, he was the very definition of a competitor and his teams reflected that. NOW, he's a quitter who was likely throwing games.
You backed him 1000% when he won. He was larger than life to you, could do no wrong. NOW, after one poor season, you attack him on all fronts. You're a frontrunner and a hypocrite. Mock me all you want for not joining you - I don't play that game.
No kidding. Ners was the leader of the pack that claimed that the sexual assault allegation was likely simply a "woman scored."
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27290.msg310934#msg310934
Now that Buzz played Derrick Wilson ahead of Magic Dawson, Buzz participated in a cover up.
Amazing.
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He is so wound up in Buzz-hate that he is making the case that it is OK for a freshman to take whatever shot he wants whenever he wants and wrong for the coach to discipline him for it.
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No kidding. Ners was the leader of the pack that claimed that the sexual assault allegation was likely simply a "woman scored."
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27290.msg310934#msg310934
Now that Buzz played Derrick Wilson ahead of Magic Dawson, Buzz participated in a cover up.
Amazing.
Or a "women scorned"? Freudian mis-spelling?
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Want irony? Want hypocrisy? Read what you just wrote. NOW, you're troubled by the Buzz/Mac interview (I was at the time and said as much). NOW, you're troubled by what you NOW call "cutting" DJ Newbill for Jamil. NOW, you're troubled by what part you think Buzz played in a possible cover up in the sexual assault allegations (correct answer = no part as there was no cover up). When Buzz was winning you were his best pal, begging him to stay in emails. NOW, it's good riddance. When Buzz was winning you defended his character and attacked his detractors. NOW, he's a phony and a coward. When Buzz was winning, he was a great coach with a keen eye for talent. NOW, he plays guys who should be nailed to the bench over guys who are obviously better. When Buzz was winning, he was the very definition of a competitor and his teams reflected that. NOW, he's a quitter who was likely throwing games.
You backed him 1000% when he won. He was larger than life to you, could do no wrong. NOW, after one poor season, you attack him on all fronts. You're a frontrunner and a hypocrite. Mock me all you want for not joining you - I don't play that game.
You're a piece....nice re-direct. You framed your argument as: Buzz suddenly morphed January 1, 2014 from a great guy and brilliant basketball coach...and I gave you examples of things that weren't so great on Buzz prior to January 1. The Mac interview. And you can go back to the Newbill deal and find a post where I mentioned I wasn't comfy with it. The sexual assaults....I had the players back..as there was a previous sexual relationship between the two...and it began as consensual...pretty freaking gray area there...and no charges were filed. What was a little shady was Buzz calling them together before they spoke with police to get the story straight - yet I can understand why he did that.
And the irony is yes...I had Buzz's back for 5 years...and was very early on record here saying he was going to be really good...really good..might get us a National Championship/Final Four...and Sultan and others were all over you and me with mockery.
But...yea...I turned on him the middle of this year...as he wasn't right...and surprise surprise...Buzz left at the end of the year for an outpost of a job in college basketball. He revealed his true character...EGO maniac. It was on display early last season..from his stubborn insistence on lineups...even when results weren't improving. The going got a little tough, and Buzz had to bail. The reality is, there were going to be multiple transfers if he stayed...Jamil and Davante didn't even mention him 1 time in their Senior Day speeches, while thanking everyone else....Buzz turned into a major jack ass....and I'm not too proud or prideful to say as much even though I had his back for 5 years.
You? LOL. You can't even deal with the real reality of Buzz's last season at MU and his departure...actually its even worse than Chico's defense of Tom Crean. At least Crean left on a high note, and to a blue blood. Buzz? Left after his 1 crap season...and went to a dead end job...and you are too prideful to admit the guy has a high degree of hypocrisy about him..preaches toughness..character...but when his got tested this year?? What did he do? He bailed.
Would you like to place a wager on if Buzz will get to a Sweet 16 in the next 5 years? I mean from your point of view...he walked into a tough situation at Marquette and improved it so much...right? He should certainly be able to do the same at VaTech..especially with an A.D. that pretty much has given him carte blanche over everything.
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This is sadly typical of what has become of you. Again, you offer no analysis. Just a bunch of infantile personal attacks and a tiresome reassertion of lots of really dumb things capped by the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop - that Buzz was losing on purpose to say F you to the administration.
As for Buzz at VT, I expect him to do better than his predecessors and improve the program significantly. It's what he did at Marquette. But if you're right that Buzz somehow morphed (on January 1, 2014, no less) from a great guy and brilliant young basketball coach into an evil ego maniac incapable of seeing what was obvious even to know nothings like yourself, he'll be a colossal failure.
Wanna bet?
Lenny, this is the question for me. Is he a brilliant young basketball coach or a coach that wins because of emotion - because his teams played harder?
I think it is the latter much more than the former. All of a sudden last year, when he lost the team, emotion wasn't enough. We were getting out-hustled for the first time in 6 years under Buzz. After seeing the coaching debacle that was the first Creighton game, I lost ALL confidence in Buzz. He really had no clue what to do against them other than try harder. His game plan against the best three point shooting team in the country was the exact plan he used against everyone else. Clog the lane and make them beat you from the three point line. But by then, the guys weren't buying it.
He did this against Creighton!! Not an example of brilliant coaching at all.
Buzz will have the advantage of always being the underdog, always being the lesser talented team in the ACC. But it's a two-edged sword. I think he will be spent by the fourth or fifth year as he was here. You can't have a 10 - 20 year run when you coaching is based on emotion, first and foremost.
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Ners, you do understand that percentages tend to drop as minutes increase correct? You also do understand that there is more to to defense than blocks and steals right? You also understand that because Burton's usage rate was so high that it exaggerates his offensive stats? You also understand that there is more to offense than scoring correct? You also understand that Lockett played on a much better team against much better competition and that will drag his stats down?
Ners, why are you so offended when people disagree with you on small details that you feel the need to insult people? We all agree that Burton is going to be great, isn't that enough?
You have a history of setting really high expectations for players. That's fine until you lash out at others who don't agree and in some cases tear down the players when they don't meet your lofty expectations.
I treat your opinions with respect, I ask that you do the same.
Uhh...why am I insulting you because I have a different viewpoint than you do? You don't hear me accusing you of insulting me? Should I be insulted because you have a different viewpoint? No.
My issue is the only argument you and the usual suspects - Sultan, Ammo, Tower - ever make about these things is: There's more to the game than scoring, rebounding, stealing the basketball, blocking shots, and shooting a better percentage from 1, 2 and 3 point land. I mean...what the hell? Production matters in business and basketball. I could have a totally fundamentally sound sales guy, that can articulate the features benefits of a product, and make a decent presentation - but if he can't close the deal and produce....he's worthless as an employee in his capacity. I don't care if a player can "play to the scouting report," (GOD that B.S.) if he can't produce and the scouting report isn't leading to wins largely due to said players who are playing to the scouting report contributing NOTHING that really matters/goes toward winning.
I'm just constantly baffled how you guys repeatedly rely on an arugment of "theres more to the game than scoring, stealing, blocking, assisting, not turning the ball over, etc."
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There is something to the emotion/play harder argument. This team did not have an emotional leader, or anyone for the team to rally behind. Buzz foreshadowed it at the media day. But I simply reject the idea that a coach can have the run that Buzz had in his previous 5 years and suddenly become stupid. I can accept the argument that the team he built was not the team that he thought he was building, that this combination simply didn't fit together correctly, be it from a skill set or an emotion/effort perspective. That the players did not develop the way he foresaw/he failed to develop the players I thought he stuck with the Oxtule line-up too long and should have gone with Burton sooner and lived with some of his defensive lapses. Burton at least injected some energy. But for me, the bottom line is S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East championship. It is not possible to have that run by accident.
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There is something to the emotion/play harder argument. This team did not have an emotional leader, or anyone for the team to rally behind. Buzz foreshadowed it at the media day. But I simply reject the idea that a coach can have the run that Buzz had in his previous 5 years and suddenly become stupid. I can accept the argument that the team he built was not the team that he thought he was building, that this combination simply didn't fit together correctly, be it from a skill set or an emotion/effort perspective. That the players did not develop the way he foresaw/he failed to develop the players I thought he stuck with the Oxtule line-up too long and should have gone with Burton sooner and lived with some of his defensive lapses. Burton at least injected some energy. But for me, the bottom line is S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East championship. It is not possible to have that run by accident.
Buzz is the head coach...he's the emotional leader...if your head coach is off and being a headcase..his leadership isn't going to translate. You don't think Jamil and Davante were beyond annoyed? Your Jamil and you get rolled out with Derrick, Jake, Juan and Otule - when you have guys like Mayo, Gardner, Burton, JJJ, Steve Taylor, and Dawson sitting on the bench?? Huh?
When your head coach says "We are playing 4 on 5," and I'm one of the other 5 - I start to wonder, Gee coach...if you recognize and realize we are playing 4 on 5 - why would you not AT LEAST TRY THE ONLY CHANGE YOU REFUSED TO MAKE ALL YEAR IN A SEASON OF ALL KINDS OF CHANGES? Maybe try a different starting PG and see what happens?? Hmm. Then you basically do it for 1 game and it translates into arguably the best win of the season...and then thereafter that kid doesn't see another game of 30 minutes for the remainder of the season?
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And the irony is yes...I had Buzz's back for 5 years...and was very early on record here saying he was going to be really good...really good..might get us a National Championship/Final Four...and Sultan and others were all over you and me with mockery.
Again, I was on you because up until a year ago, the guy could do no wrong. Any sort of criticism of him resulted in some sort of outburst from you in his defense.
Now, after a bad year, he sucked. You've spent *months* trashing him. Seriously the season ended FOUR MONTHS AGO and you are still saying the SAME DAMN THINGS.
Piece of advice. Don't be so quick to build someone up...only to turn around and be quick to tear them down. When things are going well, that doesn't mean they don't have faults. And when things are going bad, that doesn't mean they don't have positive attributes.
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I just, still, am baffled. I'll buy into the production argument. But, if Buzz was such an ego maniac, then, as a player, why wouldn't you learn to play the way he wanted you to? Again, can't we just admit that Buzz was crazy/egotistical/dumb AND players didn't do what they were told? Even IF burton could have played more, Buzz clearly didn't care about production over other factors. I'm going to go out on a ledge here and say that people here aren't arguing that bench players may not have been able to produce more than the starters, but we're all saying that Buzz wanted them to produce a certain way, and they weren't doing that. In my mind, that's on both Buzz (for being crazy) and the players (for not playing the way he wanted). Why is that not possible?
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Again, I was on you because up until a year ago, the guy could do no wrong. Any sort of criticism of him resulted in some sort of outburst from you in his defense.
Now, after a bad year, he sucked. You've spent *months* trashing him. Seriously the season ended FOUR MONTHS AGO and you are still saying the SAME DAMN THINGS.
Piece of advice. Don't be so quick to build someone up...only to turn around and be quick to tear them down. When things are going well, that doesn't mean they don't have faults. And when things are going bad, that doesn't mean they don't have positive attributes.
LOL - Thank you so much Sultan..you just proved a point of mine...you used to CRITICIZE me for "having outbursts" toward anyone who was critical of Buzz....but then this last season...YOU of all people along with Tower, Guns, TAMU...got ALL OVER ME FOR CRITICIZING BUZZ!!
So...when I defend Buzz and didn't criticize him...back in the day...you had an issue...now this past season when I was critical of Buzz...you have an issue.
Piece of advice for you...don't be a late adopter...a guy who buys on the high..sells on the low. But, I know that's how you roll. Much like I was very pro Davante, Mayo, Burton and Dawson as freshman...you? You want to take that wait and see approach..and then ultimately buy on the high. Recall being ridiculed for saying 5 games into Davante's career - he'd be the best big man at MU since Robert Jackson...and likely better...all kinds of ridicule. Somehow I imagine if Davante was playing with Diener and D-Wade as his starting backcourt...he would have had a slightly better senior season than the one he had.
Lastly - Can't ever predict how someone handles success, more money than they ever made before in life by 10 times...yea...that can change some people...and Buzz is one of those kinds of people. He became the prima donna he wasn't when he first got the job...he did eventually wear out his welcome. I'm sure Father Wild sensed the difference in Buzz last season, versus his first season.
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I'm sure Father Wild sensed the difference in Buzz last season, versus his first season.
I'm sure the first sign was the Gucci loafers with the clod hopper Vibram soles. You can take the trash out of the trailer...
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I just, still, am baffled. I'll buy into the production argument. But, if Buzz was such an ego maniac, then, as a player, why wouldn't you learn to play the way he wanted you to? Again, can't we just admit that Buzz was crazy/egotistical/dumb AND players didn't do what they were told? Even IF burton could have played more, Buzz clearly didn't care about production over other factors. I'm going to go out on a ledge here and say that people here aren't arguing that bench players may not have been able to produce more than the starters, but we're all saying that Buzz wanted them to produce a certain way, and they weren't doing that. In my mind, that's on both Buzz (for being crazy) and the players (for not playing the way he wanted). Why is that not possible?
Agree that many here don't disagree that the bench could have performed better than the starters..other than the handful of usual suspects...but as far as the bench "not producing in a certain Buzz might have wanted," well....when the two guys you played more minutes than any two other guys on the roster are doing virtually NOTHING to help you win (one more than the other)...then Buzz clearly was on cloud 9 as to what those starters were "producing" as it certainly wasn't translating into any victories.
I have ZERO doubt Buzz played both Derrick and Jake as much as he did out of stubbornness and knowing that some in the fanbase were skeptical of that, growing uneasy over that...and Buzz like he's always - needed a chip on his shoulder...and used that...and tried to prove he could win with those guys...and...it backfired...major proportions. I have no doubt Buzz's ego told him he could win with those guys..and in so doing could give a big F You to those who dared to question him. But..as I said..doubled down on Derrick and Jake...and lost big time..perhaps it even cost him his job?
Missing the NIT was beyond embarassing, yet what we "earned" to use a Buzzism. You get what you earn. Coach like sh$t..get a sh$tty outcome. There was plenty of talent on that roster to win...and win big...
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Agree that many here don't disagree that the bench could have performed better than the starters..other than the handful of usual suspects...but as far as the bench "not producing in a certain Buzz might have wanted," well....when the two guys you played more minutes than any two other guys on the roster are doing virtually NOTHING to help you win (one more than the other)...then Buzz clearly was on cloud 9 as to what those starters were "producing" as it certainly wasn't translating into any victories.
I have ZERO doubt Buzz played both Derrick and Jake as much as he did out of stubbornness and knowing that some in the fanbase were skeptical of that, growing uneasy over that...and Buzz like he's always - needed a chip on his shoulder...and used that...and tried to prove he could win with those guys...and...it backfired...major proportions. I have no doubt Buzz's ego told him he could win with those guys..and in so doing could give a big F You to those who dared to question him. But..as I said..doubled down on Derrick and Jake...and lost big time..perhaps it even cost him his job?
Missing the NIT was beyond embarassing, yet what we "earned" to use a Buzzism. You get what you earn. Coach like sh$t..get a sh$tty outcome. There was plenty of talent on that roster to win...and win big...
So, we've got half of the equation. Still no middle ground on thinking that the players themselves have a hand in this, regardless of whether or not Buzz used more-than-questionable methods?
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This gives me an idea
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This gives me an idea
I see what you did there - made yourself the "cool one" ;)
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I see what you did there - made yourself the "cool one" ;)
Well I did it because I'm a blonde bearded man, but it is an added bonus ;D
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This gives me an idea
LOL - Well done. Perhaps now we can argue over who should have been labeled who? Ahh good old Brew City 77...and his genius...sure wish he'd come back to this board and regal us all with more great insight...such as that which he provided in my signature. But like Buzz..when the going got tough here and he had to eat a little crow...Brew picked up his ball and went to Brew City Ball Forum. But, no doubt Brew still reads here as this board is far more vibrant than his new adopted home.
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Well I did it because I'm a blonde bearded man, but it is an added bonus ;D
On 2nd thought, maybe comparing yourself with the "crazy" Baldwin isn't too cool. :-\
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Ners,
This is what it seems to me you are saying:
1.We both thought Buzz Williams was a good man and a good coach. Therefore we liked him and defended him him against his detractors.
2.Last year YOU discovered that he was neither. He changed, is now a horrible person and knows nothing about coaching basketball.
3. Since we both supported him when we thought he was a good man and a good coach, we must now trash him because you have decided he is neither.
Sorry, but I don't agree with #2 so I won't go along with #3.
My position is clear. I think Buzz did a bad job as a GM last year. The team he went to war with wasn't very good. Not having Vander, Jameel and Duane was part of the reason. Steve Taylor Jr's step backwards was another. But it's still ultimately on Buzz. As for coaching, I thought he coached like he always did, but less talent equaled less wins.
You are free to disagree with my assessment. Come up with all kinds of reasons why we didn't win more often - even go so far as to accuse Buzz of throwing games. I remain unconvinced of your position.
Finally, people are not stocks to be traded. The key to business partnerships, friendships, marriages, etc., isn't to buy low, sell high. It's sticking with people through the good times and bad. Buzz can be fairly criticized for bailing when things got rocky. So can you.
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This gives me an idea
I am Irish. And stunningly good looking. With a hot significant other. And I have been accused by people in positions of power of devious plotting. Not without merit.
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Sign me up for the pro Dawson club.
Politics or high major D1 coaching may be a solid backup career for this kid.
Amen.
And it's not that Derrick makes him look better: he's heady, cool, and can hit the shot or drive. He just needs more experience and game time to put it all together.
RE: Buzz and JJJ, Buzz rolled the dice hoping to win with what he thought were the best candidates for that to happen.
I feel that he didn't play JJJ enough because Buzz wasn't looking forward (to 2014-15), rather he was looking out the door, coveting over people's positions.
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Amen.
And it's not that Derrick makes him look better: he's heady, cool, and can hit the shot or drive. He just needs more experience and game time to put it all together.
RE: Buzz and JJJ, Buzz rolled the dice hoping to win with what he thought were the best candidates for that to happen.
I feel that he didn't play JJJ enough because Buzz wasn't looking forward (to 2014-15), rather he was looking out the door, coveting over people's positions.
If Buzz wasn't looking forward, he wouldn't have red-shirted DWilson and wouldn't have tried to convince McKay and STjr to do the same.
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My view, right or wrong, is that at some point in the season Buzz decided Marquette wasn't part of his long-range plans. I don't know if it was Jan. 1 or not. I think that attitude made him coach differently, although some say he didn't change at all.
To those who say he didn't, well, that's an even bigger indictment of Buzz because a good coach knows how to make changes when things aren't working. I firmly believe in change for the sake of change if the thing is broken, and many Hall of Fame coaches in all sports do, too.
I'm not a Buzz-hater, I'm a realist. He had a very good first five seasons and a very poor sixth. He didn't just become stupid and forget how to coach; he let himself be influenced by outside forces and/or inner demons and it affected him. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.
As for Ners claiming we had enough talent to "win big," how does he know? It's an easy thing to claim because it can't be disproven. We know the "talent" Buzz kept playing wasn't good enough for us to even win little. But would we have won "big" with a bunch of freshmen on the floor? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know how Ners (and others who make grandiose claims) can be so certain of stuff all the time.
I would have liked to have seen JJJ, Dawson, Taylor and Burton play more simply because what Buzz was doing wasn't working. While there's no guarantee we would have been any better, it's hard to imagine us being much worse. And even if we were, who cares if we were 14-18 instead of 17-15? Same freakin' difference to me.
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Ners,
This is what it seems to me you are saying:
1.We both thought Buzz Williams was a good man and a good coach. Therefore we liked him and defended him him against his detractors.
2.Last year YOU discovered that he was neither. He changed, is now a horrible person and knows nothing about coaching basketball.
3. Since we both supported him when we thought he was a good man and a good coach, we must now trash him because you have decided he is neither.
Sorry, but I don't agree with #2 so I won't go along with #3.
My position is clear. I think Buzz did a bad job as a GM last year. The team he went to war with wasn't very good. Not having Vander, Jameel and Duane was part of the reason. Steve Taylor Jr's step backwards was another. But it's still ultimately on Buzz. As for coaching, I thought he coached like he always did, but less talent equaled less wins.
You are free to disagree with my assessment. Come up with all kinds of reasons why we didn't win more often - even go so far as to accuse Buzz of throwing games. I remain unconvinced of your position.
Finally, people are not stocks to be traded. The key to business partnerships, friendships, marriages, etc., isn't to buy low, sell high. It's sticking with people through the good times and bad. Buzz can be fairly criticized for bailing when things got rocky. So can you.
I agree with what I bolded....and follow that credo in my personal and business life. However, being a coach is a high profile position and in a way, as a public figure...every coach deals with fans perceptions of their performance. Buzz isn't a friend of mine, a business partner, certainly not domestic partner - so I don't view him in the context you used.
If Buzz reveled in all the glory and adulation he was given by 90% of the fanbase the first 5 years, and rewarded handsomely by the university for his results...then he shouldn't be so hyper sensitive to the criticism of last season and turn and bail after 1 bad season. That doesn't demonstrate good character - at first sign of adversity you bail? So yes, I bailed on Buzz in the sense that I didn't support him the same way I did his first 5 years...as I saw a different guy...and a different coach...call it an off year...nonetheless I wasn't screaming for his head or suggesting he be fired, move on, etc...but just that he had a really bad year.
Turns out Buzz decided to leave on his own or..depending on what you believe...was slightly encouraged to do so..as admin that worked near him on a daily basis probably saw what he had become - highly egotistical and entitled. Buzz ultimately in some ways proved me right....that he wasn't of the character I felt he was in his early years at MU...and was think skinned as I suspected he was...
Obviously...a lot of last year's frustration stems from the total and complete unwillingness to drastically alter his backcourt...PG particularly. It was clear PG was the achilles heal of the team...and Buzz tried every single other change/tinker/tweak imagineable...but absolutely refused to turn PG over to Dawson to at least just see how things would go for 3-5 games. A guy needs real minutes to show what he can do...a few 2 to 3 minute stints aren't reflective of a guys ability. Just like Mayo looked like a totally different player the last 10 games when given LONG stretches of playing time...the same would have held true for Dawson...Burton...and JJJ - all 3 of those guys are more talented than the guys in front of them. Buzz...for whatever reason was hell bent on not changing PG and its beyond me why...when he conceded he was playing 4 on 5!
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My view, right or wrong, is that at some point in the season Buzz decided Marquette wasn't part of his long-range plans. I don't know if it was Jan. 1 or not. I think that attitude made him coach differently, although some say he didn't change at all.
To those who say he didn't, well, that's an even bigger indictment of Buzz because a good coach knows how to make changes when things aren't working. I firmly believe in change for the sake of change if the thing is broken, and many Hall of Fame coaches in all sports do, too.
I'm not a Buzz-hater, I'm a realist. He had a very good first five seasons and a very poor sixth. He didn't just become stupid and forget how to coach; he let himself be influenced by outside forces and/or inner demons and it affected him. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.
As for Ners claiming we had enough talent to "win big," how does he know? It's an easy thing to claim because it can't be disproven. We know the "talent" Buzz kept playing wasn't good enough for us to even win little. But would we have won "big" with a bunch of freshmen on the floor? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know how Ners (and others who make grandiose claims) can be so certain of stuff all the time.
I would have liked to have seen JJJ, Dawson, Taylor and Burton play more simply because what Buzz was doing wasn't working. While there's no guarantee we would have been any better, it's hard to imagine us being much worse. And even if we were, who cares if we were 14-18 instead of 17-15? Same freakin' difference to me.
Amen to bolded. My biggest beef was that it was clear what Buzz was rolling out..wasn't going to allow us to win at a good rate...beat anybody of consequence. And as you point out..if it aint working..you try something else. The only thing he basically refused to try all year...was chaning PG and SG positions...but instead played them MORE minutes than any two players..and they were the least effective.
As for winning big - I tend to think that the Big East coaches know the roster composition of the 9 other teams in the conference...at Big East Media day...when they vote....and for MU to be picked 1st by the coaches...certainly guys with a pretty high degree of basketball knowledge (I mean they are D-1 coaches in a strong conference) looked at the MU roster and felt it should win fairly big...
As much as Jamil and Davante both got dogged by the guys who took up for Derrick and Jake - both those guys made NBA Summer League rosters...okay..not a huge accomplishment...but really no different than Vander or Wes...Davante was MVP at Portsmouth..Jamil 1st Team at Portsmouth...Mayo..we saw what he could do when Buzz finally gave him a fair shot...real minutes..and being allowed to play through mistakes. Saw Burton put up 23 in his last game of the year in his 2nd highest minute game 24 minutes...Dawson..enough has been said...got 1 game of 30 minutes all year..played well. JJJ? Buzz just buried him on the bench...the guy he said was the toughest and most impressive guy at Boot Camp.
It's for those reasons above that I felt the team could have won, and won big...if it were coached well.
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LOL - Thank you so much Sultan..you just proved a point of mine...you used to CRITICIZE me for "having outbursts" toward anyone who was critical of Buzz....but then this last season...YOU of all people along with Tower, Guns, TAMU...got ALL OVER ME FOR CRITICIZING BUZZ!!
So...when I defend Buzz and didn't criticize him...back in the day...you had an issue...now this past season when I was critical of Buzz...you have an issue.
Actually my position on Buzz hasn't changed. I think he is a good coach who needs some fences around him to make sure he doesn't go off the reservation.
I didn't think he was a great coach (like you did) when he started, and never thought he was irreplaceable.
I didn't think he was a bad coach last year. (I think he made too many recruiting mistakes that bit him.)
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Amen to bolded. My biggest beef was that it was clear what Buzz was rolling out..wasn't going to allow us to win at a good rate...beat anybody of consequence. And as you point out..if it aint working..you try something else. The only thing he basically refused to try all year...was chaning PG and SG positions...but instead played them MORE minutes than any two players..and they were the least effective.
As for winning big - I tend to think that the Big East coaches know the roster composition of the 9 other teams in the conference...at Big East Media day...when they vote....and for MU to be picked 1st by the coaches...certainly guys with a pretty high degree of basketball knowledge (I mean they are D-1 coaches in a strong conference) looked at the MU roster and felt it should win fairly big...
As much as Jamil and Davante both got dogged by the guys who took up for Derrick and Jake - both those guys made NBA Summer League rosters...okay..not a huge accomplishment...but really no different than Vander or Wes...Davante was MVP at Portsmouth..Jamil 1st Team at Portsmouth...Mayo..we saw what he could do when Buzz finally gave him a fair shot...real minutes..and being allowed to play through mistakes. Saw Burton put up 23 in his last game of the year in his 2nd highest minute game 24 minutes...Dawson..enough has been said...got 1 game of 30 minutes all year..played well. JJJ? Buzz just buried him on the bench...the guy he said was the toughest and most impressive guy at Boot Camp.
It's for those reasons above that I felt the team could have won, and won big...if it were coached well.
I give absolutely zero credence to the coaches' vote. Didn't we have McKee and Duane then? And even if we didn't, those things end up being so often bad. I'm curious as to where AAC coaches had UConn before the season.
I'm not going to go into a rebuttal of our talent vs. our lack thereof. You saw more talent on the MU roster last year than I did. Neither one of us can be proven right or wrong.
I disagree that Buzz tanked the season. I simply think he was distracted or disturbed or stubborn or something else. I can't know exactly because I'm not in his head, thank goodness.
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I give absolutely zero credence to the coaches' vote. Didn't we have McKee and Duane then? And even if we didn't, those things end up being so often bad. I'm curious as to where AAC coaches had UConn before the season.
I'm not going to go into a rebuttal of our talent vs. our lack thereof. You saw more talent on the MU roster last year than I did. Neither one of us can be proven right or wrong.
I disagree that Buzz tanked the season. I simply think he was distracted or disturbed or stubborn or something else. I can't know exactly because I'm not in his head, thank goodness.
In my view...if the team improves quite a bit over last year....while having lost its 2 leading scorers...and 3 post presence players...it will point toward: 1) There was a lot of talent on the roster last year...and 2) It just needed a Point Guard that could play the position at the high major level. Highly doubt Derrick will see 30 minutes a game again...and that alone will help the team win more games.
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In my view...if the team improves quite a bit over last year....while having lost its 2 leading scorers...and 3 post presence players...it will point toward: 1) There was a lot of talent on the roster last year...and 2) It just needed a Point Guard that could play the position at the high major level. Highly doubt Derrick will see 30 minutes a game again...and that alone will help the team win more games.
It also could point toward players maturing, getting stronger, getting more confident, etc. Freshmen become sophomores and usually get better, regardless of who's coaching them.
I agree Wojo and staff could be a factor but it would be a leap to say they were the factor if JJJ, Dawson, Burton, Duane progress as sophs often do.
Either way, we won't actually know. We'll just be able to opine.
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It also could point toward players maturing, getting stronger, getting more confident, etc. Freshmen become sophomores and usually get better, regardless of who's coaching them.
I agree Wojo and staff could be a factor but it would be a leap to say they were the factor if JJJ, Dawson, Burton, Duane progress as sophs often do.
Either way, we won't actually know. We'll just be able to opine.
Look, if we can't point fingers and assign blame, what reason do we even have for being here?
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It also could point toward players maturing, getting stronger, getting more confident, etc. Freshmen become sophomores and usually get better, regardless of who's coaching them.
I agree Wojo and staff could be a factor but it would be a leap to say they were the factor if JJJ, Dawson, Burton, Duane progress as sophs often do.
Either way, we won't actually know. We'll just be able to opine.
Did Juan, Derrick and Todd make major leaps between freshman and sophomore year? Vander? It is hardly a given guys improve that much between freshman and sophomore year. Quite frankly virtually NONE of Buzz's high school recruits showed much of anything as freshman or sophomores. Mayo had 1 year of prep ball...Junior was a Top 50 recruit...didn't do jack as a sophomore...Jamail Jones? Nope. Erick Williams? Nope.
Dawson, Deonte and JJJ all had a better ability to put the ball in the hoop than the guys who played in front of them last season. Period. The other guys were slightly better defenders...though not much....and in my view their defensive "prowess" in no way offset nor made up for their severe limitations offensively. Hell even the best offensive players only are successful 50% of the time...they fail 1 out of every 2 times...so is defensive value as important as offensive ability? Consider a guy who simply cannot put the ball in the basket from outside of 2', and the other from anywhere inside of 20'0" - well that is with you 100% of the time on the offensive end of the court...and it drastically affects the other guys on the floor with you..
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to make sure he doesn't go off the reservation.
Please, there is no reason to make this ethnic
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It also could point toward players maturing, getting stronger, getting more confident, etc. Freshmen become sophomores and usually get better, regardless of who's coaching them.
I agree Wojo and staff could be a factor but it would be a leap to say they were the factor if JJJ, Dawson, Burton, Duane progress as sophs often do.
Either way, we won't actually know. We'll just be able to opine.
Amen brother82
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Did Juan, Derrick and Todd make major leaps between freshman and sophomore year? Vander? It is hardly a given guys improve that much between freshman and sophomore year.
As Al used to say, "The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores".
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As Al used to say, "The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores".
I'm aware of that quote....but still waiting for someone to point out which MU player under Buzz improved so much between their freshman and sophomore year? In my view...the biggest leap should happen from sophomore to junior year.
So all of a sudden if Burton, JJJ and Dawson all take big steps up - its simply because they are now sophomores? That would make 3 guys in one year...when in the prior 5 of Buzz's tenure - NOT ONE PLAYER showed any marked improvement from freshman to sophomore year. I'd say that would be quite shocking...and in truth....more evidence that the guys had the necessary talent as freshman...But Buzz was hell bent on being stubborn, knew he was on his way out, and ultimately didn't give a crap and was his F You to admin for them trying to reign in his overblown ego.
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So all of a sudden if Burton, JJJ and Dawson all take big steps up - its simply because they are now sophomores? That would make 3 guys in one year...when in the prior 5 of Buzz's tenure - NOT ONE PLAYER showed any marked improvement from freshman to sophomore year.
That is simply not true. Gardner, Blue, Anderson, Cadougan (who was hurt) were all better as sophomores than they were as freshman.
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That is simply not true. Gardner, Blue, Anderson, Cadougan (who was hurt) were all better as sophomores than they were as freshman.
Uh...okay...your definition of "better" sure is pretty lenient. Only thing that changed as far as their output was the fact they got a little more playing time than they did as freshman.
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Yeah....they got more playing time, and made more contributions to the success of the team, because they were better.
I mean, what exactly are you expecting?
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I didn't really want to get involved in this, but I've been mentioned several times so I'll just offer this:
- I don't see coaches or players in black or white. This includes players and coaches that I may "like" or "dislike".
- I'm interested in MU hoops, but I'm not as emotionally invested as some fans, and I try not to have emotional outbursts on a keyboard.
- I'm not compelled to "buy early" or "sell early" on players or coaches. It doesn't add anything for me. I just like to watch and be entertained and sometimes discuss MU hoops.
- Most often, I have a "wait and see" approach because I've been proven wrong about a lot of things in life. I'm not very smart, and I know it.
Now, I make these statements because I don't think they match how some other fans may intake Marquette basketball, and that's okay. We can all still be friends and not try to kill each other with words.
That's it.
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Yeah....they got more playing time, and made more contributions to the success of the team, because they were better.
I mean, what exactly are you expecting?
LOL - I'm expecting a little more of a jump in production, than what was achieved, given the increased minutes.
Actually Blue, Gardner, and Juan's O-Rating regressed as sophomores. Cadougan only played in 12 games as a freshman...due to his achilles...the improvement was really relevant...and albeit limited..
As freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2010-2011&i=1&juan-anderson=2011-2012&junior-cadougan=2009-2010&p1=vander-blue&p2=juan-anderson&p3=junior-cadougan&vander-blue=2010-2011
As sophomores:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2011-2012&i=1&juan-anderson=2012-2013&junior-cadougan=2010-2011&p1=vander-blue&p2=juan-anderson&p3=junior-cadougan&vander-blue=2011-2012
Once again you fail to make a good point...but nice try. Knew you'd take the bait..and try to discredit my original point...that there hasn't been a freshman under Buzz who showed any significant improvement between sophomore and junior year...during his entire 6 year tenure.
And let's face it...none of the guys you mention...other than Gardner put up any type of world beater kind of numbers as freshman..so not asking a whole lot to improve on.
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I didn't really want to get involved in this, but I've been mentioned several times so I'll just offer this:
- I don't see coaches or players in black or white. This includes players and coaches that I may "like" or "dislike".
- I'm interested in MU hoops, but I'm not as emotionally invested as some fans, and I try not to have emotional outbursts on a keyboard.
- I'm not compelled to "buy early" or "sell early" on players or coaches. It doesn't add anything for me. I just like to watch and be entertained and sometimes discuss MU hoops.
- Most often, I have a "wait and see" approach because I've been proven wrong about a lot of things in life. I'm not very smart, and I know it.
Now, I make these statements because I don't think they match how some other fans may intake Marquette basketball, and that's okay. We can all still be friends and not try to kill each other with words.
Oh man, after those comments, you're dead to me!!
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I'm aware of that quote....but still waiting for someone to point out which MU player under Buzz improved so much between their freshman and sophomore year? In my view...the biggest leap should happen from sophomore to junior year.
So all of a sudden if Burton, JJJ and Dawson all take big steps up - its simply because they are now sophomores? That would make 3 guys in one year...when in the prior 5 of Buzz's tenure - NOT ONE PLAYER showed any marked improvement from freshman to sophomore year. I'd say that would be quite shocking...and in truth....more evidence that the guys had the necessary talent as freshman...But Buzz was hell bent on being stubborn, knew he was on his way out, and ultimately didn't give a crap and was his F You to admin for them trying to reign in his overblown ego.
I agree with your thesis.
And yet we still won't know if coaching will have been the main reason JJJ et al get better as sophomores.
What if Mayo for some reason gets worse? Will it be the coach's fault?
It will all still be mere conjecture on our part.
Yes, that's why we're here ... though some do like to "conject" more than others.
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Once again you fail to make a good point...but nice try. Knew you'd take the bait..and try to discredit my original point...that there hasn't been a freshman under Buzz who showed any significant improvement between sophomore and junior year...during his entire 6 year tenure.
Well, when you say inaccurate things, I am going to challenge them.
All four players I mentioned improved.
But again, what were you expecting? Really, I am trying to find an instance where an MU freshman made a huge jump as a sophomore. Players like the Big 3, Novak, Deiner, etc. all played more as freshmen...but none showed enormous improvement as sophomores. All were marginally better. Just like the ones I mentioned.
I think you are creating (yet another) false narrative to discredit your former idol.
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Well, when you say inaccurate things, I am going to challenge them.
All four players I mentioned improved.
But again, what were you expecting? Really, I am trying to find an instance where an MU freshman made a huge jump as a sophomore. Players like the Big 3, Novak, Deiner, etc. all played more as freshmen...but none showed enormous improvement as sophomores. All were marginally better. Just like the ones I mentioned.
I think you are creating (yet another) false narrative to discredit your former idol.
Please cite the improvement those guys showed...what categories? Here's the deal....I'll be happy to go on record and say Dawson, JJJ and Burton will show more than minuscule improvement this upcoming season over their freshman years. Hopefully Wojo nails Derrick to the bench for 35 minutes a game and gives those 35 minutes to guys who are the future of the program at the guard position - Duane, Dawson, JJJ.
And no...this isn't creating another false narrative to discredit my former idol...never had to create any false narratives to prove out my contention all last season...the proof was in the production and performance. Ironically, you on the other hand spent all last season creating false narratives to try to support the coaching performance and decisions of Buzz.
Ironically you conveniently took a break from this site for Lent - right as the season was ending and the team and Buzz flounder to a big thud of a finish..and then Buzz's departure. Certainly didn't want to stick around here and try to continue to defend your ludicrous viewpoints on last season.
I will say your consistently wrong takes and intuitions on MU basketball are quite entertaining.
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I think you are creating (yet another) false narrative to discredit your former idol.
This. Look for it to continue - no matter what happens in 2014-15 and beyond, Ners will shoe horn the facts to fit his narrative. If, for example, Magic Dawson has a good sophomore season it will PROVE he was ready to start as a freshman. If he doesn't, it will PROVE he was ready to start as a freshman but Buzz destroyed his confidence. Mark my words.
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False narrative: Buzz intentionally lost games to stick it to the administration.
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Embarrassing narrative: "I am happy when Derrick Wilson does poorly"
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This. Look for it to continue - no matter what happens in 2014-15 and beyond, Ners will shoe horn the facts to fit his narrative. If, for example, Magic Dawson has a good sophomore season it will PROVE he was ready to start as a freshman. If he doesn't, it will PROVE he was ready to start as a freshman but Buzz destroyed his confidence. Mark my words.
Please Lenny. I have no worries about Dawson turning out to be a very good player at MU. Saw plenty of good things that will bode well for his future. It won't be a case of him having a bad year this season...he may not get a ton of PT...but he'll play well in his minutes..and I have no doubt as a Junior he'll be a very nice player. The kid has a lot of talent. Yet sadly you and the other 5 clowns seem to feel Derrick Wilson was a better option last year...and the team finished with its worst record in how long?? So if it wasn't Buzz's coaching that was the problem...then it was the players...and it is ridiculous to try to point the blame at Davante and Jamil who are good enough to be on NBA Summer League rosters.
False narrative: Buzz intentionally lost games to stick it to the administration.
You might be surprised. Buzz damn well knew he wasn't playing his best and most talented players the max minutes. Why do you think he pulled Burton for the 6:30 of the 7:00 minutes in a win or go home game when Burton scored 23 points in 24 minutes and was flat out dominating Xavier?? Why? Is that a good coaching decision? Does it make ANY sense?
Embarrassing narrative: "I am happy when Derrick Wilson does poorly"
Not sure that was the quote...more along the lines of I can't say I really was rooting for him to do well...as I felt if he didn't...(and he didn't do well or improve an ounce over the course of the season), that Buzz like 99% of the coaches would recognize and finally try someone else. WAs the only way the team was going to have a chance to win...
Yet you, Sultan, Tower, Lenny...all swore up and down Buzz's teams always get better down the stretch, we'll be fine...Buzz knows what he's doing, he's taken us to three straight Sweet 16s, therefore is beyond reproach in his coaching decisions..
And you want to know what? I damn well know you same clowns were in a way hoping for Dawson to lay eggs so it would prop up your continued weak arguments for Derrick to continue getting 30+ minutes per game. And as I pointed out - Derrick was heralded for his solid defensive game at UW as freshman by many..including me...yet if Dawson put up a game of 20 minutes, 0 points, 0 assists, and 3 fouls while playing solid D...you all would have been saying - see he's not ready..blah blah, blah.
End of day, Wojo knew he needed to get a proven guy at PG position and got Carlino. NO way you'll see a program bring a 1 year rental in at a position where you have an incumbent senior who just played more minutes as a junior than any other player on the team...if you didn't feel he was a clear and totally liability.
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End of day, Wojo knew he needed to get a proven guy at PG position and got Carlino. NO way you'll see a program bring a 1 year rental in at a position where you have an incumbent senior who just played more minutes as a junior than any other player on the team...if you didn't feel he was a clear and totally liability.
Right.
Which is why I wanted Carlino here. As did TAMU. Again, you fail to understand the very underpinnings of what we have been saying.
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Not sure that was the quote...more along the lines of I can't say I really was rooting for him to do well...as I felt if he didn't...(and he didn't do well or improve an ounce over the course of the season), that Buzz like 99% of the coaches would recognize and finally try someone else. WAs the only way the team was going to have a chance to win...
I don't remember the exact quote, but you flat out admitted that you were actively cheering against Derrick with the goal being that Derrick would be pulled so Dawson. To me that was saying that you being right was more important to you than Marquette succeeding. You could have said "Either Derrick needs to improve or be pulled" or something along those lines but instead you decided to actively root against a Marquette player, and by extension the team. This was evident by you tearing down Derrick every chance you got and discrediting him whenever he did well.
Yet you, Sultan, Tower, Lenny...all swore up and down Buzz's teams always get better down the stretch, we'll be fine...Buzz knows what he's doing, he's taken us to three straight Sweet 16s, therefore is beyond reproach in his coaching decisions..
I did think we would be fine down the stretch. I was wrong. I am not embarrassed by that fact. Previous seasons suggested we would be. Buzz is not beyond reproach, but he does know a helluva lot more about basketball than any of us. There is a difference.
And you want to know what? I damn well know you same clowns were in a way hoping for Dawson to lay eggs so it would prop up your continued weak arguments for Derrick to continue getting 30+ minutes per game.
Clowns? Again, why do you feel the name to insult? This paragraph is BS and you know it. I can't speak for everyone but I and the other "usual suspects" repeatedly cheered for John when he was doing well. We were ecstatic when John put up a great game against Georgetown. I went so far as to say a Dawson deserved a 20 20 playing time split with Derrick and Sultan created a thread called "Tip of the hat to Ners." We want the best for Marquette. I would be ecstatic if John does become Magic Dawesome. I don't care about being right. THAT is the difference. If Derrick is named the starter next season (something I sincerely doubt will happen) and played well, you would continue to discredit him and say something like "Buzz ruined John's confidence, otherwise he would be the starter." Please point out an example where one of the 5 "clowns" wished that John would do poorly and I will apologize and take this back.
And as I pointed out - Derrick was heralded for his solid defensive game at UW as freshman by many..including me...yet if Dawson put up a game of 20 minutes, 0 points, 0 assists, and 3 fouls while playing solid D...you all would have been saying - see he's not ready..blah blah, blah.
Expectations Ners. I keep saying it, but you keep missing the point. At UW, Derrick was expected to be a ONE time starter where he just held down the fort and hopefully didn't embarrass us at the Kohl Center. He responded by playing great defense on an elite scorer and helping the team to a marquee win. In Dawson's case, you were expecting him to be the full time starter. You need to put up better numbers to prove that you deserve to be a full time starter than to say you had a single solid game. So a 20 minute, 0 point, 0 assist, 3 fouls game with great defense is enough to prove that you had a single solid game. It is not enough to prove you deserve to be the full time starter. I used the same line of thinking when judging John's Georgetown game. It is enough to be deserving of more minutes (I said a 20 20 split), it is not enough (IMHO) to be deserving of the full time starter's position. If he continued to produce, I would have said to give the keys to him.
End of day, Wojo knew he needed to get a proven guy at PG position and got Carlino. NO way you'll see a program bring a 1 year rental in at a position where you have an incumbent senior who just played more minutes as a junior than any other player on the team...if you didn't feel he was a clear and totally liability.
This is true. This proves Derrick was a liability. It does NOT approve that John was better. That is where you seem to get stuck. It is not enough to prove one was bad, you have plenty of proof for that. The proof that John was good is not as apparent. He needed more minutes in order to prove that he was good. Buzz didn't give him that. I absolutely fault Buzz for that. I wanted at very least 10-15 minutes a game for Dawson so he could have the opportunity to earn the position.
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Right.
Which is why I wanted Carlino here. As did TAMU. Again, you fail to understand the very underpinnings of what we have been saying.
Exactly.
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I vaguely remember something about a pledge earlier this year...
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Please Lenny. I have no worries about Dawson turning out to be a very good player at MU. Saw plenty of good things that will bode well for his future. It won't be a case of him having a bad year this season...he may not get a ton of PT...but he'll play well in his minutes..and I have no doubt as a Junior he'll be a very nice player. The kid has a lot of talent. Yet sadly you and the other 5 clowns seem to feel Derrick Wilson was a better option last year...and the team finished with its worst record in how long?? So if it wasn't Buzz's coaching that was the problem...then it was the players...and it is ridiculous to try to point the blame at Davante and Jamil who are good enough to be on NBA Summer League rosters.
You might be surprised. Buzz damn well knew he wasn't playing his best and most talented players the max minutes. Why do you think he pulled Burton for the 6:30 of the 7:00 minutes in a win or go home game when Burton scored 23 points in 24 minutes and was flat out dominating Xavier?? Why? Is that a good coaching decision? Does it make ANY sense?
Not sure that was the quote...more along the lines of I can't say I really was rooting for him to do well...as I felt if he didn't...(and he didn't do well or improve an ounce over the course of the season), that Buzz like 99% of the coaches would recognize and finally try someone else. WAs the only way the team was going to have a chance to win...
Yet you, Sultan, Tower, Lenny...all swore up and down Buzz's teams always get better down the stretch, we'll be fine...Buzz knows what he's doing, he's taken us to three straight Sweet 16s, therefore is beyond reproach in his coaching decisions..
And you want to know what? I damn well know you same clowns were in a way hoping for Dawson to lay eggs so it would prop up your continued weak arguments for Derrick to continue getting 30+ minutes per game. And as I pointed out - Derrick was heralded for his solid defensive game at UW as freshman by many..including me...yet if Dawson put up a game of 20 minutes, 0 points, 0 assists, and 3 fouls while playing solid D...you all would have been saying - see he's not ready..blah blah, blah.
End of day, Wojo knew he needed to get a proven guy at PG position and got Carlino. NO way you'll see a program bring a 1 year rental in at a position where you have an incumbent senior who just played more minutes as a junior than any other player on the team...if you didn't feel he was a clear and totally liability.
This seems to be getting emotional and personal for you.
Maybe it's time for a break?
You've made your case. Everybody knows how you feel.
Let it slide. Everybody move on.
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This seems to be getting emotional and personal for you.
Maybe it's time for a break?
You've made your case. Everybody knows how you feel.
Let it slide. Everybody move on.
When have you ever known anyone on this site to take a break or "let it slide"?
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When have you ever known anyone of this site to take a break or "let it slide"?
I won't say anything at all
So why don't you slide
Yeah, I'm gonna let it slide
Don't you love the life you killed?
The priest is on the phone
Your father hit the wall
Your ma disowned you
So why don't you slide
Yeah, I'm gonna let it slide
-- John Rzeznik, Goo Goo Dolls
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I won't say anything at all
So why don't you slide
Yeah, I'm gonna let it slide
Don't you love the life you killed?
The priest is on the phone
Your father hit the wall
Your ma disowned you
So why don't you slide
Yeah, I'm gonna let it slide
-- John Rzeznik, Goo Goo Dolls
Keefe,
Put your arms around me. What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful.
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When have you ever known anyone on this site to take a break or "let it slide"?
Gotta start someplace.
Offseason debates about Buzz's motivations, playing time, projected improvements and he said/she said seems like a good place to start.
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This is true. This proves Derrick was a liability. It does NOT approve that John was better. That is where you seem to get stuck. It is not enough to prove one was bad, you have plenty of proof for that. The proof that John was good is not as apparent.
Exactly. Derrick was a liability. We all knew that. So did Buzz. He knew it so well he even tried Jamil (briefly) and Todd (even more briefly) at the point. Doesn't that indicate that he knew? But he was still trying to win each game, and from what he saw every day, he felt Derrick afforded him the best opportunity to do that. Very simple, even if Ners wants to turn it into a psychological thriller with conspiratorial overtones.
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When have you ever known anyone on this site to take a break or "let it slide"?
I gave myself a Derrick Moratorium for a month last year and stuck by it.
About two weeks ago, I gave myself another Derrick Moratorium at least until Marquette Madness and I will stick by it.
There are no new points to be made right now. None.
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I don't remember the exact quote, but you flat out admitted that you were actively cheering against Derrick with the goal being that Derrick would be pulled so Dawson. To me that was saying that you being right was more important to you than Marquette succeeding. You could have said "Either Derrick needs to improve or be pulled" or something along those lines but instead you decided to actively root against a Marquette player, and by extension the team. This was evident by you tearing down Derrick every chance you got and discrediting him whenever he did well.
I did think we would be fine down the stretch. I was wrong. I am not embarrassed by that fact. Previous seasons suggested we would be. Buzz is not beyond reproach, but he does know a helluva lot more about basketball than any of us. There is a difference.
Clowns? Again, why do you feel the name to insult? This paragraph is BS and you know it. I can't speak for everyone but I and the other "usual suspects" repeatedly cheered for John when he was doing well. We were ecstatic when John put up a great game against Georgetown. I went so far as to say a Dawson deserved a 20 20 playing time split with Derrick and Sultan created a thread called "Tip of the hat to Ners." We want the best for Marquette. I would be ecstatic if John does become Magic Dawesome. I don't care about being right. THAT is the difference. If Derrick is named the starter next season (something I sincerely doubt will happen) and played well, you would continue to discredit him and say something like "Buzz ruined John's confidence, otherwise he would be the starter." Please point out an example where one of the 5 "clowns" wished that John would do poorly and I will apologize and take this back.
Expectations Ners. I keep saying it, but you keep missing the point. At UW, Derrick was expected to be a ONE time starter where he just held down the fort and hopefully didn't embarrass us at the Kohl Center. He responded by playing great defense on an elite scorer and helping the team to a marquee win. In Dawson's case, you were expecting him to be the full time starter. You need to put up better numbers to prove that you deserve to be a full time starter than to say you had a single solid game. So a 20 minute, 0 point, 0 assist, 3 fouls game with great defense is enough to prove that you had a single solid game. It is not enough to prove you deserve to be the full time starter. I used the same line of thinking when judging John's Georgetown game. It is enough to be deserving of more minutes (I said a 20 20 split), it is not enough (IMHO) to be deserving of the full time starter's position. If he continued to produce, I would have said to give the keys to him.
This is true. This proves Derrick was a liability. It does NOT approve that John was better. That is where you seem to get stuck. It is not enough to prove one was bad, you have plenty of proof for that. The proof that John was good is not as apparent. He needed more minutes in order to prove that he was good. Buzz didn't give him that. I absolutely fault Buzz for that. I wanted at very least 10-15 minutes a game for Dawson so he could have the opportunity to earn the position.
On first bolded - No...Marquette succeeding is what matters most to me...and I knew it wasn't going to happen with Derrick getting 30+ minutes at the PG position prior to December of last year....it wasn't about being right...it was absolutely and totally about wanting Marquette and the 11 other guys on the team to be able to succeed. Derrick is a backup PG...10 minutes a game...that's it...you play the guy with the higher ceiling and live with some of the growing pains....uh..I think that's what Green Bay did with Brett Farve...and many NFL teams with their QBs...RG III, Luck, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning - just because they are rookies doesn't mean they are going to perform worse than a veteran..
And why would Dawson "have to continue to produce," when at the time of the Georgetown game we had roughly 20 of 24 games where Derrick didn't produce jack....and teams weren't even guarding him within 6 feet on the perimeter. Never seen anything like in high major ball. We had no transition game with Derrick at PG. NO offensive flair. Just awful. He doesn't turn the ball over because he never tries to make plays, nor did he ever have to worry about even being defended tightly on the perimeter..hard to turn it over when your defender is 6 feet off of you!
I love who Derrick is as a kid, as a human being - that doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism, nor played as much as he was...given how poor his (and the team's) production was.
Hell Derrick even told Buzz during Georgetown game to keep playing Dawson...once again Buzz didn't want to do it...yet...we know the outcome. And as for assessing a player...for the last time - NO - You do not get a feel for what a guy can do when you play him for 3, 2 to 3 minute stints, and in that time have him play with up to 10 different guys...as Buzz's maniacal subbing resulted in at times last year. Was the dumbest coaching I'd ever seen. And again...Mayo looked liked a totally different player the last 10 games of the year ONLY because Buzz finally gave him long, uninterrupted stretches of run, regardless of him making a few mistakes. The sad part was the only two guys who got that luxury (long stretches of run), were Derrick and Jake...and it led to virtually no offensive production at all.
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On first bolded - No...Marquette succeeding is what matters most to me...and I knew it wasn't going to happen with Derrick getting 30+ minutes at the PG position prior to December of last year....it wasn't about being right...it was absolutely and totally about wanting Marquette and the 11 other guys on the team to be able to succeed.
Frankly, I don't believe you. Because if that were true, you would still cheer for Derrick when he was playing well. You didn't. You constantly tried to tear him down and discredit him when he was playing well. I also don't believe you because you were against Carlino coming in. PG is our most obvious position of need and you didn't want to bring in a quality graduate transfer at the position because "it would cut into Dawson's playing time." Honestly, it seems like you are more focused on trying to prove a point than about the team succeeding. Isn't that what you accuse Buzz of doing?
I'm not going back into the Dawson Derrick stuff. Because it's been said ad naseum. We are both smart people. We both have the same data. We come to different conclusions. Neither one of us can definitively prove the other one wrong. That happens some times. It really doesn't bother me
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Frankly, I don't believe you. Because if that were true, you would still cheer for Derrick when he was playing well. You didn't. You constantly tried to tear him down and discredit him when he was playing well. I also don't believe you because you were against Carlino coming in. PG is our most obvious position of need and you didn't want to bring in a quality graduate transfer at the position because "it would cut into Dawson's playing time." Honestly, it seems like you are more focused on trying to prove a point than about the team succeeding. Isn't that what you accuse Buzz of doing?
I'm not going back into the Dawson Derrick stuff. Because it's been said ad naseum. We are both smart people. We both have the same data. We come to different conclusions. Neither one of us can definitively prove the other one wrong. That happens some times. It really doesn't bother me
That's not true TAMU...I voted Derrick SOTG after I think the home game at Xavier....and gave him kudos a few times over the course of last season. He had roughly 5-6 nice games out of 32. The rest were pretty bad. As for Carlino coming in - yeah - Can't say I loved it..as I do feel it would hamper the growth/playing time of Dawson and Duane...and Carlino has had some team chemistry issues...and simply feel Dawson and Duane would be good enough to give the position a major shot in the arm...and who knows...maybe Derrick will have improved and morphed into a respectable shooter this offseason..
The data we have is 17-15 and missed the NIT and worst season in MU basketball I think since the Kevin O'Neill's first year on the job. No way Buzz's 6th team should have been that bad...and particularly not with as much talent as he had on it.
At least we got a nice debate rolling here...as for wanting to be right about stuff...I find it funny that you and my other 4 "adversaries" on this debate already had been trying to claim that if the team is much better next year and Derrick is reduced to a minimal role on the team....it won't point toward Derrick having been the main and most significant problem with last year's team...it's okay for you boys to admit you were wrong all season long last year...you were..Buzz was...and the season was a disaster...when it didn't have to be.
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You say 'adversaries'. I say fans with different perspectives. And quit putting words in my mouth. I haven't said anything about next year's team other than we are small and I have concerns. Not a single word about Derrick's minutes and how it relates to next year's record. Your megalomania on this topic is now in its 7th month. Seek help.
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That's not true TAMU...I voted Derrick SOTG after I think the home game at Xavier....and gave him kudos a few times over the course of last season. He had roughly 5-6 nice games out of 32. The rest were pretty bad. As for Carlino coming in - yeah - Can't say I loved it..as I do feel it would hamper the growth/playing time of Dawson and Duane...and Carlino has had some team chemistry issues...and simply feel Dawson and Duane would be good enough to give the position a major shot in the arm...and who knows...maybe Derrick will have improved and morphed into a respectable shooter this offseason..
The data we have is 17-15 and missed the NIT and worst season in MU basketball I think since the Kevin O'Neill's first year on the job. No way Buzz's 6th team should have been that bad...and particularly not with as much talent as he had on it.
At least we got a nice debate rolling here...as for wanting to be right about stuff...I find it funny that you and my other 4 "adversaries" on this debate already had been trying to claim that if the team is much better next year and Derrick is reduced to a minimal role on the team....it won't point toward Derrick having been the main and most significant problem with last year's team...it's okay for you boys to admit you were wrong all season long last year...you were..Buzz was...and the season was a disaster...when it didn't have to be.
Not be nitpicky here but I'd take 17-15 over the 14-15 last year of mike deane or the 15-14 second year of Tom Crean (the first 15-14 year we went to the NIT at least) so while it was a terrible season it wasn't the worst since O'Neill's first year.
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To me it is a two edge sword, because the coach is mostly responsible for the talent level of the team. However, I do not think last year's team was that talented. 4 seniors of which none of them was close to being drafted. Three juniors two of which have no chance to be drafted and Mayo who has very little chance of being drafted. One sophomore who is not likely to be drafted. The real talent was in the freshmen class, which did not receive much playing time for whatever reason you want to argue.
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To me it is a two edge sword, because the coach is mostly responsible for the talent level of the team. However, I do not think last year's team was that talented. 4 seniors of which none of them was close to being drafted. Three juniors two of which have no chance to be drafted and Mayo who has very little chance of being drafted. One sophomore who is not likely to be drafted. The real talent was in the freshmen class, which did not receive much playing time for whatever reason you want to argue.
In all fairness you can't really judge an injured/rarely used sophomore yet. I still maintain that Taylor puts it together... Maybe not enough to get drafted but to turn some heads.
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That's not true TAMU...I voted Derrick SOTG after I think the home game at Xavier....and gave him kudos a few times over the course of last season. He had roughly 5-6 nice games out of 32. The rest were pretty bad. As for Carlino coming in - yeah - Can't say I loved it..as I do feel it would hamper the growth/playing time of Dawson and Duane...and Carlino has had some team chemistry issues...and simply feel Dawson and Duane would be good enough to give the position a major shot in the arm...and who knows...maybe Derrick will have improved and morphed into a respectable shooter this offseason..
The data we have is 17-15 and missed the NIT and worst season in MU basketball I think since the Kevin O'Neill's first year on the job. No way Buzz's 6th team should have been that bad...and particularly not with as much talent as he had on it.
At least we got a nice debate rolling here...as for wanting to be right about stuff...I find it funny that you and my other 4 "adversaries" on this debate already had been trying to claim that if the team is much better next year and Derrick is reduced to a minimal role on the team....it won't point toward Derrick having been the main and most significant problem with last year's team...it's okay for you boys to admit you were wrong all season long last year...you were..Buzz was...and the season was a disaster...when it didn't have to be.
Time for that exorcism.
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Time for that exorcism.
LOL - If you can round up TAMU, Sultan, Tower, and Lenny to join in as well...I'll be happy to participate. They need to be exorcised of their Derrick love just as much as I need to be exorcised of my Dawson love.
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Derrick
Love the new avatar!! Brilliant!
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LOL - If you can round up TAMU, Sultan, Tower, and Lenny to join in as well...I'll be happy to participate. They need to be exorcised of their Derrick love just as much as I need to be exorcised of my Dawson love.
Do not confuse not thinking Dawson is ready with Derrick Love. I think all of us agree that he was one of if not the biggest issue with last year's team. That's why were actually excited about Carlino coming in.
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Love the new avatar!! Brilliant!
Thanks, thought I'd turn over a new leaf and join Team Derrick - Sultan, Guns, TAMU, Lenny, Tower - hopefully this can lead to peace among us.