MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: LastWarrior on July 01, 2014, 11:38:57 AM
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On Twitter...
Welcome to MU Matt!
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On Twitter...
to MU I hope?
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to MU I hope?
Perhaps he committed to Twitter
Yes, committed to MU. http://247sports.com/Player/Matt-Heldt-24392
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Is this a good get? I don't really know anything about him and it looks like the only high majors recruiting him were us and Xavier. Watched a couple youtube highlights and doesn't really seem too fluid or athletic to me, but it's hard to tell a lot from those kind of clips.He is 6'10" though, so that's nice to start getting some size on the board. Anyways, welcome to Marquette!!
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Might be reporting from the same source, 24/7 updated as wel:
http://247sports.com/Player/Matt-Heldt-24392
EDIT: Ack - just saw the Chicos post - my bad. Mods feel free to delete!
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
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Mark Miller @WisBBYearbook · 19m
Matt Heldt, ranked third in the state in 2015 by http://WisSports.net, joins Nick Noskowiak in the 2015 recruiting class at Marquette.
If he's third in the state, I would think that puts him behind Stone and Ellenson and ahead of Noskowiak.
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ESPN ranks him as 4-stars, right outside top 100.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/187242/matt-heldt
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Welcome to MU, young Mr. Heldt. May your career be productive, may your critics be silenced by your play.
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He's 6'10" and can hit a three. I like it but here's the lowdown from Paint Touches...
Matt Heldt
(6-foot-10 center, Neenah H.S., Wisc.)
ESPN: N/A; Rivals: N/A; Scout: 3-star
Listed schools: Green Bay, Marquette, Milwaukee, Northern Illinois, Toledo, Xavier
Analysis: Talented scorer around the basket and has range to the 3-point line // solid size and is a talented defender // Marquette offered earlier in the week // averaged 18.2 points and 7.5 rebounds and a junior // HIGHLIGHTS
http://painttouches.com/2014/05/03/marquette-2015-recruiting-update/ (http://painttouches.com/2014/05/03/marquette-2015-recruiting-update/)
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ESPN ranks him as 4-stars, right outside top 100.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/187242/matt-heldt
Can see him moving into the top 100 at some point during the season.
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Yeah kids like Stone and Ellenson.
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Geez.
Now we don't even wait for the kid to enroll before we say he's not good enough?
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Where are you getting 3 stars from? Solid big who's on the rise and most importantly, he can shoot.
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ESPN ranks him as 4-stars, right outside top 100.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/187242/matt-heldt
He's low on their 4 star rating scale with an 81. Nick, for example, is an 86 but also a 4 star. Heldt is ranked 4th in the state. Rivals has him unranked. Scouts and 24/7 have him as a 3 star. Good news is that Xavier had recently offered. Michigan and Indiana were starting to talk to him, so he is looked at as an up and comer in some circles.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/state/wisconsin/class/2015/view/state
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Can we take him and Ellenson? Is that realistic? Can I assume that he might be more of developing player who will look to start as an upperclassmen whereas Ellenson could be gone by then?
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Where are you getting 3 stars from? Solid big who's on the rise and most importantly, he can shoot.
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=6935265
and
http://247sports.com/Player/Matt-Heldt-24392
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Can we take him and Ellenson? Is that realistic? Can I assume that he might be more of developing player who will look to start as an upperclassmen whereas Ellenson could be gone by then?
We could absolutely take him and Ellenson. They could play together in the frontcourt.
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We could absolutely take him and Ellenson. They could play together in the frontcourt.
and Luke?
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http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=6935265
and
http://247sports.com/Player/Matt-Heldt-24392
Good to see you wanting to point out our newest recruit's lowest rankings.
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6'10" and can shoot. That combination has worked out before so I am optimistic
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We could absolutely take him and Ellenson. They could play together in the frontcourt.
+1
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Traditional U. I like it. Great way to go up against UW, hey?
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Good to see you wanting to point out our newest recruit's lowest rankings.
Wait, did you really just say that? WTF. You asked where is someone getting 3 stars from. The answer was provided to you, from two recruiting services. YOU asked, then you make that kind of statement when someone provided you with the information? I also called him an up and comer, by the way.
For the record, his lowest rankings is with Rivals, no stars.
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"Heldt was receiving interest from Wisconsin, Clemson, Colorado, Gonzaga, Vanderbilt, and others.
Opting to end his recruitment before the July evaluation period later this month, the 6-foot-10, 225-pound center wasn’t concerned with other offers that may have come his way."
“I’m not out here to rack up as many offers I can,” he said. “I want to play at a school I really liked and really liked me. Marquette was a perfect fit. I could just feel it. It ended up being before the July period, but it’s the right fit for me.”
- See more at: http://ny2lasports.com/article_one.aspx?articleid=2244#sthash.V8OPQSmQ.pMAkLSsn.dpuf
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Welcome, Matt.
Did he not have an offer from Wisconsin?
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Can we take him and Ellenson? Is that realistic? Can I assume that he might be more of developing player who will look to start as an upperclassmen whereas Ellenson could be gone by then?
Definitely. Heldt's body will need some work, and he plays a different game than Ellenson.
When I see Ellenson play, the first guy I think of is Singler. Might not be as good of a shooter yet, but can definitely see similarities. I'm sure Wojo does as well.
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
We went from recruiting switchables to an actual center.
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Wait, did you really just say that? WTF. You asked where is someone getting 3 stars from. The answer was provided to you, from two recruiting services. YOU asked, then you make that kind of statement when someone provided you with the information? I also called him an up and comer, by the way.
For the record, his lowest rankings is with Rivals, no stars.
My original comment was rhetorical. Settle down.
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Welcome, Matt.
Did he not have an offer from Wisconsin?
No offer from UW-madison, but they were keeping tabs on him. Henry is their guy they are targeting and if he fell through, Heldt was a potential option B.
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My original comment was rhetorical. Settle down.
If it was rhetorical, then your follow-up comment to me was not necessary at all. Maybe it wasn't so rhetorical. At. All.
Settled down.
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Wait, did you really just say that? WTF. You asked where is someone getting 3 stars from. The answer was provided to you, from two recruiting services. YOU asked, then you make that kind of statement when someone provided you with the information? I also called him an up and comer, by the way.
For the record, his lowest rankings is with Rivals, no stars.
heavy...stop making me agree with chicos.
time will tell on this one, but if i were in wojo's shoes i wouldn't turn down an easy to land big man. worst case scenario we get a solid role/situational player that can give us 5 fouls when need be, and will require anyone guarding him to step out on the perimeter. upside on a big man with outside range/skills can obviously be far beyond that.
that said, i'd bet this is the biggest moment in this kids life, and he's on the internet reading all about it...
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Matt Heldt
@HeldtMatt
Ecstatic to be committed to Marquette! Thanks to everyone who has helped me on my journey so far. #blessed
9:58 AM - 1 Jul 2014
Nick Noskowiak @NickNoskowiak 6m
@HeldtMatt let's get it !!
Matt Heldt @HeldtMatt 6m
@NickNoskowiak I'm all in brother!
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No offer from UW-madison, but they were keeping tabs on him. Henry is their guy they are targeting and if he fell through, Heldt was a potential option B.
Actually, Stone is the guy they are targeting at the 5 (Heldt's position). Don't think they'll get him and I assume we're officially out with Matt's commitment. Ellenson is a 4.
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heavy...stop making me agree with chicos.
time will tell on this one, but if i were in wojo's shoes i wouldn't turn down an easy to land big man. worst case scenario we get a solid role/situational player that can give us 5 fouls when need be, and will require anyone guarding him to step out on the perimeter. upside on a big man with outside range/skills can obviously be far beyond that.
that said, i'd bet this is the biggest moment in this kids life, and he's on the internet reading all about it...
Reading lots of good things about him on Twitter. Mark Miller has him ranked third in the state. Very solid player who's only going to get better. Win-win for him and for MU.
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He seems like the type of big we've wanted for years right?
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I really like this commit. I wasn't high on him his Soph year but he made huge strides last summer. Very good footwork around the basket and finishes well with both hands. Outstanding passer and seems comfortable dealing with double teams, catches and looks opposite extremely well. Has played very well in screen and roll game as his point guard was outstanding in this part of the game (Pohlman, going to Northern Michigan) and also has pick and pop potential. He shoots it well to 15 and should be solid out to 3 as he gets stronger (he can shoot it now but I am not sure that you want him to yet). Runs the floor easily but he doesn't have really quick feet so ball screen defense could be a challenge. Not an explosive player but perhaps he will improve a bit with maturity. As he gets stronger I think he will be a very nice high D1 player. I am really surprised that UW didn't recruit him harder. Now go get Ellensen and Wojo will be looking very good.
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Skilled big who can run the floor, shoot and score in the low post.....what's not to like?
Frank Kaminsky was a 3 star without any high major offers outside of UW....how did that work out?
230lbs now and trying to get up to 240 by the start of the season.
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Traditional U. I like it. Great way to go up against UW, hey?
If you can't beat 'em join 'em
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Mike Deane must be back, I hope we can recruit one minority kid this year. Good pick up as a back-up to Fisher, it gives Heldt a couple of years to work behind Fisher. There are only 3
scholarships left fro 2015, if the Ellenson boys take them, that will leave one. I think that should be saved for 2016 unless there is really a 4 or 5 star kid that wants to come to MU. With Levin
and Heldt, they will have some good depth which they really need this year. 5 deep upfront in 2 years compared to 3 deep this year.
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Recruiting and Getting are two different things. Name a highly ranked true Center Buzz landed during his tenure? What good does clinging to the revisionist image of Buzz do for us? He didn't want to be at MU, Wojo does...wait a year or two before you tarnish his abilities.
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Mike Deane must be back, I hope we can recruit one minority kid this year.
The fact that I am associated with the Marquette fan base can be so damn depressing at times.
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I really like this commit. I wasn't high on him his Soph year but he made huge strides last summer. Very good footwork around the basket and finishes well with both hands. Outstanding passer and seems comfortable dealing with double teams, catches and looks opposite extremely well. Has played very well in screen and roll game as his point guard was outstanding in this part of the game (Pohlman, going to Northern Michigan) and also has pick and pop potential. He shoots it well to 15 and should be solid out to 3 as he gets stronger (he can shoot it now but I am not sure that you want him to yet). Runs the floor easily but he doesn't have really quick feet so ball screen defense could be a challenge. Not an explosive player but perhaps he will improve a bit with maturity. As he gets stronger I think he will be a very nice high D1 player. I am really surprised that UW didn't recruit him harder. Now go get Ellensen and Wojo will be looking very good.
How dare you offer insight on the man's basketball skills!
Seriously, Scoopers gnash their teeth over MU's inability to land a 5 and then when we do get someone who has national-level attention there is more wailing and lamenting! You guys would bitch about a blow job...
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I really like this commit. I wasn't high on him his Soph year but he made huge strides last summer. Very good footwork around the basket and finishes well with both hands. Outstanding passer and seems comfortable dealing with double teams, catches and looks opposite extremely well. Has played very well in screen and roll game as his point guard was outstanding in this part of the game (Pohlman, going to Northern Michigan) and also has pick and pop potential. He shoots it well to 15 and should be solid out to 3 as he gets stronger (he can shoot it now but I am not sure that you want him to yet). Runs the floor easily but he doesn't have really quick feet so ball screen defense could be a challenge. Not an explosive player but perhaps he will improve a bit with maturity. As he gets stronger I think he will be a very nice high D1 player. I am really surprised that UW didn't recruit him harder. Now go get Ellensen and Wojo will be looking very good.
You haven't posted much, but I love what you write. Very quality stuff.
Yes, Heldt and Ellenson can play together. My guess for awhile is that Stone isn't coming here.
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Geez.
Now we don't even wait for the kid to enroll before we say he's not good enough?
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No kidding! Though I'm sure the poster is a much better judge of basketball ability then Wojo!!
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You haven't posted much, but I love what you write.
I agree. When Bob Lackey posts Scoopers ought not to ignore his wisdom
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Skilled big who can run the floor, shoot and score in the low post.....what's not to like?
Frank Kaminsky was a 3 star without any high major offers outside of UW....how did that work out?
230lbs now and trying to get up to 240 by the start of the season.
Great stuff Mark. BTW, there are people on here who think that Frank the Tank has NOT worked out cuz he plays in Madison.
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How dare you offer insight on the man's basketball skills!
Seriously, Scoopers gnash their teeth over MU's inability to land a 5 and then when we do get someone who has national-level attention there is more wailing and lamenting! You guys would bitch about a blow job...
+1
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No offer from UW-madison, but they were keeping tabs on him. Henry is their guy they are targeting and if he fell through, Heldt was a potential option B.
My guess is if Henry stays in state, it will be at Marquette. There doesn't seem to be much interest in UW from his end.
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I really like this commit. I wasn't high on him his Soph year but he made huge strides last summer. Very good footwork around the basket and finishes well with both hands. Outstanding passer and seems comfortable dealing with double teams, catches and looks opposite extremely well. Has played very well in screen and roll game as his point guard was outstanding in this part of the game (Pohlman, going to Northern Michigan) and also has pick and pop potential. He shoots it well to 15 and should be solid out to 3 as he gets stronger (he can shoot it now but I am not sure that you want him to yet). Runs the floor easily but he doesn't have really quick feet so ball screen defense could be a challenge. Not an explosive player but perhaps he will improve a bit with maturity. As he gets stronger I think he will be a very nice high D1 player. I am really surprised that UW didn't recruit him harder. Now go get Ellensen and Wojo will be looking very good.
Agree with this. He played with Noskowiak and Pritzl last year, but switched back to Spartans (his original team) this year and has really improved. I heard he went back because it was just bombs away for Pritzl all last year. Noskowiak left as well. I would project Heldt to be a hybrid of Fischer and Kaminsky. Can definitely shoot it, but I think he could be a pretty special player once he hits the weight room for two years. Hindsight is 20/20 and there are no results to speak of yet, but MU basketball has a totally different feel for me under Wojo. The program feels "cleaner" to me. There was a certain slime factor/schtick with Buzz that you knew existed, but put up with because he was delivering. Wojo just makes MU look/feel more legit IMO. We're not getting Stone, but if Wojo delivers Ellingsen, he is putting together an awesome recruiting class on paper.
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Stupid comment.
Yes, of course after getting this commit, Wojo backed off of all 4 & 5-star players.
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I agree. When Bob Lackey posts Scoopers ought not to ignore his wisdom
Damn right. I really enjoyed seeing Lackey play. He looked every bit as mean as Lucas in his prime. Not nearly as talented, but what a glare!
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Bo did not offer Heldt cause they are choosing between Stone and Ellensen and have Sharma in the bag.
At least says the Badger boards...
My guess - Bo gets left holding the proverbial (golf) bag in the end and misses on all three...
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Great commit. Can't teach 6"10. And he can shoot to boot. I could see him being a late entry into the top 100. Even if he's not, still a solid player.
Welcome to warrior nation Matt!
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I agree. When Bob Lackey posts Scoopers ought not to ignore his wisdom
What happens if the former Black Swan is the former Blackswan \ AhoyaBallscout \ Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes ?
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Actually, Wojo seems to have a very clear plan.
It appears that he is going after guards and big men who can shot close-in, or out. In point of fact, basketball has become a game of guards with bigs who swing (so to speak).
One cannot help but notice that Wojo is not going after "switchables." -- may Beauregard rest in peace.
Interesting stuff ...
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looking like the Stone ship may have already left the dock?
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looking like the Stone ship may have already left the dock?
It's getting farther away
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I agree with BrandX and Kenosha Warrior. Just happens in the excellent class of 2015, the state has produced
some top grade traditional players as you guys call them. But, HELDT and NOSKOWIAK can play and the most
important of all, these guys want to play at MU. Now, if we can land ELLENSON, and Ryan does not have SHARMA locked up. Don't think Stone will come to MU. Still am wishing for LOONEY. (Dreaming). Don't think Wojo goes for JC players. Now let's get SHARMA and ELLENSON. They are key.
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Wojo really wanted Heldt. I think Wojo can judge talent. I look at Heldt as one of those guys who after one or two years in the program is as good or better than the guys ranked above him coming out of high-school. We need to recruit and keep these type of guys in the program and add a few high flyers around them. That gives some continuity to the program.
This is how you build a team for the long term. I don't think Wojo wants or will need to reach for late signers in May to field a decent team each year. That is, as long as he can keep the transfers down, which I think he can do based upon what he did this spring. Refreshing.
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looking like the Stone ship may have already left the dock?
Don't think it was ever anchored anywhere close to the dock
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I dont like this. I simply dont like it. Someone, anyone tell me how this is a good pick up?
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I dont like this. I simply dont like it. Someone, anyone tell me how this is a good pick up?
A four star in state 6"10 kid who can shoot threes. What seems to be the problem?
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I dont like this. I simply dont like it. Someone, anyone tell me how this is a good pick up?
What don't you like? You've made subtle comments about this the last few months. Out with it.
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I dont like this. I simply dont like it. Someone, anyone tell me how this is a good pick up?
He's gonna be a top 100 player by the end of this upcoming season. He runs the floor well, can score close to the hoop and from 3 and has tremendous upside. He wants to be at MU and has playing experience at the AAU level with our incoming point guard.
Wondering what your concerns are.
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What happens if the former Black Swan is the former Blackswan \ AhoyaBallscout \ Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes ?
There was but one Black Swan. Nothing epitomized the McGuire Era more perfectly than the Bob Lackey shooting flaming arrows at opponents and refs. Quite simply put, Bob Lackey put the Bad in Mother Effer.
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Wondering what your concerns are.
His concerns are in black bold....see what I did there. :o
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There was but one Black Swan. Nothing epitomized the McGuire Era more perfectly than the Bob Lackey shooting flaming arrows at opponents and refs. Quite simply put, Bob Lackey put the Bad in Mother Effer.
Agree, unfortunately not the case with the poster here, unless it isn't the same Blackswan now back as Black Swan.
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There was but one Black Swan. Nothing epitomized the McGuire Era more perfectly than the Bob Lackey shooting flaming arrows at opponents and refs. Quite simply put, Bob Lackey put the Bad in Mother Effer.
+1
One of my all-time favorites.
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A four star in state 6"10 kid who can shoot threes. What seems to be the problem?
Simply in line with most of the rest of his comments.
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Congratulations Matt welcome to MU. your going to be a great addition to the program.
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6' 10" can run the court can shoot the 3 I watched him in the high school playoffs has potential , how about Steve Novak coming out of Brown Deer High what was his player rank his senior year ? and you see where he has gone shooting the 3. Welcome to the MU family Matt look forward to seeing you play , good luck to a special senior season.
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6' 10" can run the court can shoot the 3 I watched him in the high school playoffs has potential , how about Steve Novak coming out of Brown Deer High what was his player rank his senior year ? and you see where he has gone shooting the 3. Welcome to the MU family Matt look forward to seeing you play , good luck to a special senior season.
Novak was highly rated out of high school, top 65 in the country. Florida, Illinois, etc were recruiting him. I would be thrilled if this kid was anywhere close to Novak. Welcome aboard.
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Can we take him and Ellenson? Is that realistic? Can I assume that he might be more of developing player who will look to start as an upperclassmen whereas Ellenson could be gone by then?
If both were among the top five, Heldt would play the 5 and Ellenson the 4.
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Noskowiak. Heldt. Ellenson.
That would be a pretty strong, fundamental recruiting class.
Welcome to Marquette, Matt. Nice get by Wojo!
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Traditional U. I like it. Great way to go up against UW, hey?
They'll probably turn it over by passing our guys the ball by mistake.
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Bo did not offer Heldt cause they are choosing between Stone and Ellensen and have Sharma in the bag.
At least says the Badger boards...
My guess - Bo gets left holding the proverbial (golf) bag in the end and misses on all three...
I was too busy reading their comments about one of our player's parents again. They sure love to talk about the parents of MU players over the years. Wes's mom, Vander's dad, Maymon's dad, now Duane's dad. ::)
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A 5 that can hit the three? That's Badgeresque...er...Duke brand of ball! ;)
Can't wait to see PICK (heldt), ROLL (cohen), and FLICK (noskowiak)!
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A 5 that can hit the three? That's Badgeresque...er...Duke brand of ball! ;)
Can't wait to see PICK (heldt), ROLL (cohen), and FLICK (noskowiak)!
I am with you my Pinoy brother. Heady times await the faithful!
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Don't be a goofball.
How many stars were Mayo and Gardner? Fewer than Juan Anderson and Erik Williams, if I'm not mistaken. How many stars was the big center who just followed Buzz to VaTech? Is he a stud?
How many 4- and 5-star recruits did Wichita State have? How many did Butler have when it went to consecutive title games?
Rankings are fun ... until the players actually hit the court and we can see who can play and who can't.
I don't know if Heldt can play but I do know I'm going to give him every chance to show he can. I'm thrilled he's joining Wojo's Warriors!
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Skilled big who can run the floor, shoot and score in the low post.....what's not to like?
Frank Kaminsky was a 3 star without any high major offers outside of UW....how did that work out?
230lbs now and trying to get up to 240 by the start of the season.
+1
He reads and sounds a lot like Kaminsky.
Don't big develop slowly.
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Watched Matt last summer with Nick N. and Pritzl. He interested me there - enough to keep tabs on. At that point, had him as a possible MM stud with potential to move up.
Watching him this spring, I thought he had made some nice strides. Versatile big and a good addition for the program. His mom was closely tracking his stats at one tournament this spring... I'm sure the family is quite proud. Great opportunity for him and MU alike.
Thought he looked quite a bit bigger (pause) this year - but was still running the court well. He'll need to make an impact inside and use his size, but definitely a kid who can do multiple things offensively, including score from the perimeter.
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What happens if the former Black Swan is the former Blackswan \ AhoyaBallscout \ Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes ?
Then he has matured - mightily.
Seriously, don't mention Canadian Dimes, I felt an eerie chill.
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I dont like this. I simply dont like it. Someone, anyone tell me how this is a good pick up?
Another case where the user name has a definite truth in advertising ring to it.
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I was too busy reading their comments about one of our player's parents again. They sure love to talk about the parents of MU players over the years. Wes's mom, Vander's dad, Maymon's dad, now Duane's dad. ::)
Yeah Bucky, start dumping on one of the state's top AAU coaches. Me like.
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Yeah Bucky, start dumping on one of the state's top AAU coaches. Me like.
I'm sure Breadtree will set them straight.
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Yeah Bucky, start dumping on one of the state's top AAU coaches. Me like.
I run into Ike every few weeks and he is one passionate dude. One day he's talking about 2019 prospects, the next week he's talking about how Sandy Cohen is going to surprise people this year. He is easily one of the most connected guys in the state, if not the midwest. He's got a confident air about him, which may turn off some, but he is highly entertaining and very respected by the players. Certainly not someone to dump on.
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My guess is if Henry stays in state, it will be at Marquette. There doesn't seem to be much interest in UW from his end.
Where have you heard this from? I have not heard this mentioned that Ellenson is not interested in UW. Very interesting if true.
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Where have you heard this from? I have not heard this mentioned that Ellenson is not interested in UW. Very interesting if true.
LOL...you are too busy ripping on Marquette on your little board to pay attention I see...
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LOL...you are too busy ripping on Marquette on your little board to pay attention I see...
I'm all for trolling Badgers fans but Jakeec is pretty tame compared to most over there.
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I'm all for trolling Badgers fans but Jakeec is pretty tame compared to most over there.
He plays nice while he is here and is generally more open minded than some, but that is a pretty low bar.
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He's gonna be a top 100 player by the end of this upcoming season. He runs the floor well, can score close to the hoop and from 3 and has tremendous upside. He wants to be at MU and has playing experience at the AAU level with our incoming point guard.
Wondering what your concerns are.
My concerns: 1. He is not athletic 2. Plays against poor high school competition. 3. Doesn't pass the eye test ( I seen him play in person). Im not impressed
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and this dipsh*t likely took 2 classes at UW-Marathon County before pledging his total allegiance and children's allegiance to the badgers:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418)
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My concerns: 1. He is not athletic 2. Plays against poor high school competition. 3. Doesn't pass the eye test ( I seen him play in person). Im not impressed
How much does not passing the eye test has to do with him being white?
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How much does not passing the eye test has to do with him being white?
A lot! A WHOLE lot
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and this dipsh*t likely took 2 classes at UW-Marathon County before pledging his total allegiance and children's allegiance to the badgers:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418)
Provincial doesn't begin to label some folks not only in Wisconsin, but the midwest in general. Not necessarily a bad thing, but in all the places I've lived in this country and the world, the Midwest is remarkable in its provincial feelings. It's as if you're anti-American or certain anti-incumbant state if you dare to consider the big blue marble we live on and dare to consider leaving the hive. Reading that guy's post is just another example.
First of all, the whole idea of forcing my child to cheer for a certain team is foreign to me. My dad didn't do it to me, I didn't do it to my son. There are teams we both like and we have teams that are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I get the idea of father and dad cheering for the same team, but would never force that decision. The idea of not wanting them to ever leave the state and complete the brainwashing this guy talks about is precious. I guarantee he is also a fan that will be the first one to claim the Badgers need more speed, get them from Florida, Texas, California. Ironic
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A lot! A WHOLE lot
I'll ask again, why don't you just come out and say it. You've been beating around the bush for the last few months....just say it.
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He was considering Davidson until Wojo came on the scene
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/high-school/basketball/2014/07/01/neenahs-matt-heldt-commits-marquette/11929933/
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A lot! A WHOLE lot
A lot stoopid.
A whole lot stoopid.
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and this dipsh*t likely took 2 classes at UW-Marathon County before pledging his total allegiance and children's allegiance to the badgers:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=193&f=2565&t=12968418)
Reading that Vadger board, all I can say is, "What a bunch of arrogant pricks."
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Reading that Vadger board, all I can say is, "What a bunch of arrogant pricks."
I was thinking the same thing. They have no perspective at all. Provincial doesn't begin to describe the in-bred insularity
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A lot! A WHOLE lot
Nice insightful comment. Keep up the great work.
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A talented big from WI. who wants to play for MU. It doesn't get better than that. Congrats to mojo wojo
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Very interesting pickup. Looks like a kid who kept improving and is on his way up the rankings.
This is a definite change in recruiting style -- Buzz didn't go after kids like this period. I'm not sure whether it is totally about style of play, or whether there was an aspect of not wasting effort with players that looked more like UW recruits. I am happy for the commit and to get guys who can shoot, but have a little bit of concern over sustainability of this style of play if it means we are regularly going after the same kids as UW (and the kind of kids they have a track record with). As good as Wisconsin high school kids have been the last few years it may be been fine now but if the well goes dry for a spell we may see some intense competition for recruits who can shoot.
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ALRIGHT, ALRIGHT, ALRIGHT!!!
(http://www.gq.com/blogs/the-feed/matthew-mcconaughey-alright-alright-alright.jpg)
If we're doing this traditional transition this is a good pick up. Gonna struggle on D but like his offensive potential a lot.
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Novak was highly rated out of high school, top 65 in the country. Florida, Illinois, etc were recruiting him. I would be thrilled if this kid was anywhere close to Novak. Welcome aboard.
The only other 6'10" guy on the planet that shoots like Novak is Durant.
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Fisher and Heldt will probably be more offensive than O'Tule and Gardner. Different types of players but both the past MU players had issues. Heldt is a perfect back-up and in 3 years might
have the ability to start. The recruiting of Wojo reminds me a little bit of Kevin O'Neal first year getting Key, Logeterman and MacIlvane. Recruit the state first then make connections out of
state the 2nd and third year. A lot easier to recruit in your backdoor. Have to get on kids when they are frosh and sophs. It sounds that the next few years are soft on Division 1 kids, so he will have to recruit out of state. True test, Duke went everywhere in the country, not sure you can do that at MU.
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Very interesting pickup. Looks like a kid who kept improving and is on his way up the rankings.
This is a definite change in recruiting style -- Buzz didn't go after kids like this period. I'm not sure whether it is totally about style of play, or whether there was an aspect of not wasting effort with players that looked more like UW recruits. I am happy for the commit and to get guys who can shoot, but have a little bit of concern over sustainability of this style of play if it means we are regularly going after the same kids as UW (and the kind of kids they have a track record with). As good as Wisconsin high school kids have been the last few years it may be been fine now but if the well goes dry for a spell we may see some intense competition for recruits who can shoot.
Let's not forget, he got Carlino from Indiana and Levin from the Chicago area. He's gotten some non-WI kids. I think Wojo will be just fine.
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Based on no inside information, strictly opinion, I think our last three 2015 schollies will end up going to:
Haaniff Cheatham 6-5 180 4S SG (FL)
Matt Ryan 6-6 197 3S SF (NY)
Henry Ellenson 6-10 247 5S PF (WI)
With Noskowiak, Heldt, and Levin also coming in, that would make a hella good 2015 crop.
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Matt Ryan cut us from his list I think. In RE to Heldt. Lets say he falls right at the 100 mark in rankings that would put him Apprx the 15th rated Center. Look at it that way. We got a commitment from the 15 best Center in the country. There are so few good Center's that very few end up in the Top 100. All other positions put 20-25 in the top 100.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see Cheatham and both Ellensons.
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He was considering Davidson until Wojo came on the scene
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/high-school/basketball/2014/07/01/neenahs-matt-heldt-commits-marquette/11929933/
Davidson...Davidson...isn't that the team that should have beaten us in the first round the year that we got to the elite eight?
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Very interesting pickup. Looks like a kid who kept improving and is on his way up the rankings.
This is a definite change in recruiting style -- Buzz didn't go after kids like this period. I'm not sure whether it is totally about style of play, or whether there was an aspect of not wasting effort with players that looked more like UW recruits. I am happy for the commit and to get guys who can shoot, but have a little bit of concern over sustainability of this style of play if it means we are regularly going after the same kids as UW (and the kind of kids they have a track record with). As good as Wisconsin high school kids have been the last few years it may be been fine now but if the well goes dry for a spell we may see some intense competition for recruits who can shoot.
I think that Wojo is more intelligent than to let that become a problem. Don't you?
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ALRIGHT, ALRIGHT, ALRIGHT!!!
If we're doing this traditional transition this is a good pick up. Gonna struggle on D but like his offensive potential a lot.
"traditional transition" really?
Yes, Marquette is building toward a team that would make Aldolph Rupp proud.
Heldt is a fantastic pickup, period. No qualifiers necessary.
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Very interesting pickup. Looks like a kid who kept improving and is on his way up the rankings.
This is a definite change in recruiting style -- Buzz didn't go after kids like this period. I'm not sure whether it is totally about style of play, or whether there was an aspect of not wasting effort with players that looked more like UW recruits. I am happy for the commit and to get guys who can shoot, but have a little bit of concern over sustainability of this style of play if it means we are regularly going after the same kids as UW (and the kind of kids they have a track record with). As good as Wisconsin high school kids have been the last few years it may be been fine now but if the well goes dry for a spell we may see some intense competition for recruits who can shoot.
The funny part about it is Buzz would bitch (mostly in private, but enough people who knew him shared with me) about his teams not being able to shoot. Well, duh, it's because he didn't recruit enough shooters.
As far as Wisconsin having lean years in HS talent, it's going to happen but not a big deal. Wojo's net (like Buzz, Crean, etc) is cast wider than just Wisconsin and Illinois.
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Matt Ryan cut us from his list I think. In RE to Heldt. Lets say he falls right at the 100 mark in rankings that would put him Apprx the 15th rated Center. Look at it that way. We got a commitment from the 15 best Center in the country. There are so few good Center's that very few end up in the Top 100. All other positions put 20-25 in the top 100.
Found this from a couple weeks ago. No mention of Marquette.
http://zagsblog.com/recruiting/notre-dame-duke-carolina-michigan-in-hunt-for-matt-ryan/ (http://zagsblog.com/recruiting/notre-dame-duke-carolina-michigan-in-hunt-for-matt-ryan/)
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Don't know a lot about this kid....but on the surface....getting a high 3 star/low 4 star "big" is something MU has struggled with over and over and over. We should be happy with Wojo being able to get a commit from this kid. I think part of the concern some have, is - are we going to become "Traditional U," and in so becoming - lose some of mystique of Marquette's best teams typically being composed of black kids from urban areas, tough backgrounds...who became true warriors...and were incredibly fun to watch.
And the truth of the matter is, generally speaking, black kids tend to be better basketball players than white kids. Of course not true in all cases...but we can look to the NBA and see all the proof of that generalization we need.
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Found this from a couple weeks ago. No mention of Marquette.
http://zagsblog.com/recruiting/notre-dame-duke-carolina-michigan-in-hunt-for-matt-ryan/ (http://zagsblog.com/recruiting/notre-dame-duke-carolina-michigan-in-hunt-for-matt-ryan/)
Marquette isn't in the headline but is mentioned (with Duke, Notre Dame, Carolina, Michigan and "a myriad of others") in the text of the article.
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Don't know a lot about this kid....but on the surface....getting a high 3 star/low 4 star "big" is something MU has struggled with over and over and over. We should be happy with Wojo being able to get a commit from this kid. I think part of the concern some have, is - are we going to become "Traditional U," and in so becoming - lose some of mystique of Marquette's best teams typically being composed of black kids from urban areas, tough backgrounds...who became true warriors...and were incredibly fun to watch.
And the truth of the matter is, generally speaking, black kids tend to be better basketball players than white kids. Of course not true in all cases...but we can look to the NBA and see all the proof of that generalization we need.
...always exceptions...
(http://www.nbateamslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/celtics_1986.jpg)
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Don't know a lot about this kid....but on the surface....getting a high 3 star/low 4 star "big" is something MU has struggled with over and over and over. We should be happy with Wojo being able to get a commit from this kid. I think part of the concern some have, is - are we going to become "Traditional U," and in so becoming - lose some of mystique of Marquette's best teams typically being composed of black kids from urban areas, tough backgrounds...who became true warriors...and were incredibly fun to watch.
And the truth of the matter is, generally speaking, black kids tend to be better basketball players than white kids. Of course not true in all cases...but we can look to the NBA and see all the proof of that generalization we need.
The fact that our entire current roster is sticking around tells you all you need to know, imo.
Wojo likes kids that can play, and seems to be a heck of a recruiter :)
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Marquette isn't in the headline but is mentioned (with Duke, Notre Dame, Carolina, Michigan and "a myriad of others") in the text of the article.
Makes it a bit ambiguous. Guess it doesn't really say if we're really still in it or not.
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Need a mix of both white and black kids for sure, or better just a bunch of good ballplayers. Wisco has won that way, but to be elite you need elite players, no matter what color they
are. Buzz did not recruit those types of kids, it just so happens Wisconsin has a group of good players this year that happen to be white. Levin and Carlino both can play as well. Buzz
recruiting basically the backroom places recruited mostly black kids, I think you need a little of both to be successful.
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The funny part about it is Buzz would bitch (mostly in private, but enough people who knew him shared with me) about his teams not being able to shoot. Well, duh, it's because he didn't recruit enough shooters.
As far as Wisconsin having lean years in HS talent, it's going to happen but not a big deal. Wojo's net (like Buzz, Crean, etc) is cast wider than just Wisconsin and Illinois.
I think Wojo is going to settle into a nice sweet spot between Bo and Buzz, because when you think about it, that's what Duke has become. Very athletic but also very skilled and balanced 1-5. Many different ways to skin that cat. As long as he ends up in the NCAAs like TC & Buzz, I'm good with it. I felt both TC and Buzz neglected kids like Heldt. Grab 1 every year. KO seemed to be the best at that. Sometimes you get Amal, sometimes you get Richard Shaw.
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This entire black/white argument is dumb...beyond dumb.
Buzz emphasized different basketball skills than Wojo seems to. Buzz emphasized getting the ball into the lane and attacking the basket. If how Duke recruits is any indication, Wojo puts a preference on outside shooting.
We shouldn't care how the team looks or what kind of balance we have. I am pretty confident that good basketball coaches don't care. Just recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing the same and we'll be fine.
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...always exceptions...
(http://www.nbateamslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/celtics_1986.jpg)
Nice find...and Greg Kite's creepy mustache. Epic. However, was that the 85 Celtics? So 30 years ago?! Definitely the exception to the rule.
But...Wisconsin proved last year you can compete at a high level with a lineup of traditionals. :D
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This entire black/white argument is dumb...beyond dumb.
Buzz emphasized different basketball skills than Wojo seems to. Buzz emphasized getting the ball into the lane and attacking the basket. If how Duke recruits is any indication, Wojo puts a preference on outside shooting.
We shouldn't care how the team looks or what kind of balance we have. I am pretty confident that good basketball coaches don't care. Just recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing the same and we'll be fine.
The black/white thing isn't an "argument." It is simply an observation. But I do agree with you, it is important to recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and defend. It doesn't have to be a one or the other proposition.
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This entire black/white argument is dumb...beyond dumb.
Buzz emphasized different basketball skills than Wojo seems to. Buzz emphasized getting the ball into the lane and attacking the basket. If how Duke recruits is any indication, Wojo puts a preference on outside shooting.
We shouldn't care how the team looks or what kind of balance we have. I am pretty confident that good basketball coaches don't care. Just recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing the same and we'll be fine.
+1
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As many have said, star ratings don't mean squat. Watching us play many mid major schools in the tournament over the years there were players I wish MU had that were on the the opposing team; especially the bigs. Watching MU play under both Crean and Buzz has had its ups and downs. For me there have been more ups than downs. Now we have a coach that has actually played the game who may just teach a kid to maximize his strengths and and improve where he is weak. We finally land a kid taller than 6-6 or 6-7 and we are complaining that he is not a high 4 star. Let's complain about the coach and the player if they don't perform on the court, not before. Welcome to MU Matt.
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There is only one real benefit to recruiting a white guy vs. a black guy:
Signing the white guy, no matter how talented, drives ThatDude nuts!
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Sad that the melatonin content of a new MU hoopster matters to anybody. Kind of pathetic, actually.
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This entire black/white argument is dumb...beyond dumb.
Buzz emphasized different basketball skills than Wojo seems to. Buzz emphasized getting the ball into the lane and attacking the basket. If how Duke recruits is any indication, Wojo puts a preference on outside shooting.
We shouldn't care how the team looks or what kind of balance we have. I am pretty confident that good basketball coaches don't care. Just recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing the same and we'll be fine.
Amen
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Amen
...coming from the guy that started the whole sh*tstorm in reverse. Oh the HYPOCRISY!!!!
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Marquette isn't in the headline but is mentioned (with Duke, Notre Dame, Carolina, Michigan and "a myriad of others") in the text of the article.
Duke and Carolina put him on hold pending evidence that he is not damaged goods. I have heard that he is keen on those two . If those two decline then we are competing with Notre Dame. Neon in the conversation is a good thing .
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Sad that the melatonin content of a new MU hoopster matters to anybody. Kind of UNBELIEVABLY pathetic , actually.
Fixed it for you.
The Patron Saint of MU basketball, Al, never cared about it, and he always went for the most talented kids he could find.
That seemed to work out pretty well for everybody.
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This entire black/white argument is dumb...beyond dumb.
Buzz emphasized different basketball skills than Wojo seems to. Buzz emphasized getting the ball into the lane and attacking the basket. If how Duke recruits is any indication, Wojo puts a preference on outside shooting.
We shouldn't care how the team looks or what kind of balance we have. I am pretty confident that good basketball coaches don't care. Just recruit players who can put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing the same and we'll be fine.
+1000
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Welcome Matt to Warrior Nation!!!!
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As many have said, star ratings don't mean squat. Watching us play many mid major schools in the tournament over the years there were players I wish MU had that were on the the opposing team; especially the bigs. Watching MU play under both Crean and Buzz has had its ups and downs. For me there have been more ups than downs. Now we have a coach that has actually played the game who may just teach a kid to maximize his strengths and and improve where he is weak. We finally land a kid taller than 6-6 or 6-7 and we are complaining that he is not a high 4 star. Let's complain about the coach and the player if they don't perform on the court, not before. Welcome to MU Matt.
I understand the point that you are trying to make - that it is not necessary to be a 4 or 5-star player to be a very good college player, but I think it is going way, way, way overboard to say that "star ratings don't mean squat".
I would venture a guess that if you looked at the top 50 ratings for any year, that there would be at least twice as many guys in the NBA from the top 25 than from from the next 25.
But if you were trying to emphasize how much of an inexact science these rating systems are, I would tend to agree. How do you differentiate between the 45th and 75th rated player? The rating, in that case, really doesn't matter. It is all about the system that you are running.
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I understand the point that you are trying to make - that it is not necessary to be a 4 or 5-star player to be a very good college player, but I think it is going way, way, way overboard to say that "star ratings don't mean squat".
I would venture a guess that if you looked at the top 50 ratings for any year, that there would be at least twice as many guys in the NBA from the top 25 than from from the next 25.
But if you were trying to emphasize how much of an inexact science these rating systems are, I would tend to agree. How do you differentiate between the 45th and 75th rated player? The rating, in that case, really doesn't matter. It is all about the system that you are running.
Yeah, having multiple McDonald's All Americans on the team doesn't mean you won't suck (see Indiana last year or North Carolina a few years ago) but in general the top teams have some pretty highly ranked players.
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IU is easy enough to understand, hey? After all, even several lottery picks on the roster doesn't guarantee nothin'.
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What happens if the former Black Swan is the former Blackswan \ AhoyaBallscout \ Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes ?
Not sure if this is directed at me but I can assure you that I have never posted on this board until recently. I chose the Black Swan name because as a kid I thought that Lackey was the scariest dude I had ever seen and despite being in a Notre Dame house, I did like watching MU.
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I understand the point that you are trying to make - that it is not necessary to be a 4 or 5-star player to be a very good college player, but I think it is going way, way, way overboard to say that "star ratings don't mean squat".
I would venture a guess that if you looked at the top 50 ratings for any year, that there would be at least twice as many guys in the NBA from the top 25 than from from the next 25.
But if you were trying to emphasize how much of an inexact science these rating systems are, I would tend to agree. How do you differentiate between the 45th and 75th rated player? The rating, in that case, really doesn't matter. It is all about the system that you are running.
Serious question because I don't know the answer and am curious ...
Whenever we recruit a guy, lots of folks who sound like they know what they're talking about say something like, "Even if he's not in the top 100 now, he will be by midway through next season." How do you know this? Do guys ever go from, say, #52 to #92 (without getting hurt)? Has a guy ever been labeled a 4-star only to be downgraded to 3-star six months later?
I am just not enough of a "recruit-nik" to know these things.
Thanks.
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Not sure if this is directed at me but I can assure you that I have never posted on this board until recently. I chose the Black Swan name because as a kid I thought that Lackey was the scariest dude I had ever seen and despite being in a Notre Dame house, I did like watching MU.
What the hell! So, you're not Bob Lackey?
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My concerns: 1. He is not athletic 2. Plays against poor high school competition. 3. Doesn't pass the eye test ( I seen him play in person). Im not impressed
Lets look at this one by one....1. While I agree that Matt is not an explosive player he does run the floor well and shows very good hand-eye skill. He finishes around the basket with both hands and seems to understand the game at a high level. His shooting will also be a plus. I don't know if you have noticed but not everyone is Shawn Kemp...2. This one shows you are clueless. If Heldt plays against poor high school competition what do you have to say about Stone and Ellenson? The FVA may not be as tough as it was during the stretch of Secker, Wade, Dieners and Tigert and Butch but it is still one of the top 2 or 3 conferences in the state...3. I would agree with you if you are basing this on his Soph year but as he has matured he is getting better and better. Let me tell you about the eye test...I watched Frank Kaminsky score 5 points against a Wisc HS team that had a 6' 1" post player. I watched Butch score 5 points against a HS team that had a 6'3" post player. I would suggest that you take another look at Heldt. Will he be a star? I won't go there but he is a very nice get that has a chance to be a major contributor at the High D1 level.
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What the hell! So, you're not Bob Lackey?
If I was I would be coming back from the grave and putting a beat down on a few posters...Ha!
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Not sure if this is directed at me but I can assure you that I have never posted on this board until recently. I chose the Black Swan name because as a kid I thought that Lackey was the scariest dude I had ever seen and despite being in a Notre Dame house, I did like watching MU.
Y'all ever seen Maurice Lucas?
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Serious question because I don't know the answer and am curious ...
Whenever we recruit a guy, lots of folks who sound like they know what they're talking about say something like, "Even if he's not in the top 100 now, he will be by midway through next season." How do you know this? Do guys ever go from, say, #52 to #92 (without getting hurt)? Has a guy ever been labeled a 4-star only to be downgraded to 3-star six months later?
I am just not enough of a "recruit-nik" to know these things.
Thanks.
Of course. Guys move up, guys move down. there's only 100 slots in the top 100. If a guy has shown particularly well on the AAU trail between ranking periods people will surmise (usually correctly) that he will move up in the next rankings. If he's played poorly or was injured or didn't play for some reason he goes down. We have some people (most notably Jay Bee) who know what's happening on the AAU circuit.
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If I was I would be coming back from the grave and putting a beat down on a few posters...
This would not pose a problem for the Bob Lackey I knew. People fell over themselves concerning the alleged toughness of Trevor Mbakwe. He had nothing whatsoever on the Black Swan. Nothing.
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There are very few athletic 6-10 players. Defense is a skill that can be taught. It is mostly being in good postion and blocking out for rebounds.
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Y'all ever seen Maurice Lucas?
No. But Dean The Dream doesn't look great.
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there's only 100 slots in the top 100.
You sure about this math, Lenny?
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You sure about this math, Lenny?
In the Non Adjusted Fenwick Top 100 I'm sure.
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Not sure if this is directed at me but I can assure you that I have never posted on this board until recently. I chose the Black Swan name because as a kid I thought that Lackey was the scariest dude I had ever seen and despite being in a Notre Dame house, I did like watching MU.
That's cool. Believe me, that admission alone puts you light years ahead of the clownhole that used it previously and now goes by River Rat.
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Let it go----State of Wisconsin just came up with an elite bunch of traditionals. You want players who can play and know all facets of the game. Doesn't make any difference of color. So drop the stupid responses on color.
Would be a topper if Henry and stone would be here. Throw in LOONEY AND KOENIG. WOW!
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Let it go----State of Wisconsin just came up with an elite bunch of traditionals. You want players who can play and know all facets of the game. Doesn't make any difference of color. So drop the stupid responses on color.
Would be a topper if Henry and stone would be here. Throw in LOONEY AND KOENIG. WOW!
Ya! Don't these players now that every top 100 wisconsin prospect has to go to Marquette?!
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Despite the glare the Black Swan cut a wide swath through the fields of feminity while at MU.
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How many stars were Mayo and Gardner? Fewer than Juan Anderson and Erik Williams, if I'm not mistaken. How many stars was the big center who just followed Buzz to VaTech? Is he a stud?
How many 4- and 5-star recruits did Wichita State have? How many did Butler have when it went to consecutive title games?
Rankings are fun ... until the players actually hit the court and we can see who can play and who can't.
+1,000,000
I look at the rankings like everyone else does. It may give some insight on a players potential, but some fans, and not just here by a long shot, absolutely obsess about it. Jamail Jones was another top 100 who got here and showed he can't play at a high D-1 level.
I couldn't care less if Heldt winds up being a top 100 before arriving at MU. I'm good right now with his size and skill set. We'll just have to wait and see until then.
Our culture always wants to hype and heap greatness on someone well before they're in a position to show whether they have what it takes or not. The top 100 in football and basketball recruiting is just another example. And it's not just limited to whether a guy makes it in the top 100. I'm willing to bet we'd all laugh, mock, and smear the rankings of 2,3,5,10 years ago, and who was near the top of the top 100. Brian Butch was supposed to be the second coming according to all the rankings and Ryan thought so little of his readiness to play out of the gate he redshirted him! Tokoto is another example, highly ranked, sickening amount of hype, does anyone feel bad he didn't wind up at MU? He's been extremely pedestrian at UNC thus far.
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Hutch, you are picking out all exceptions to the rule and saying "hey, the rule sucks."
For sh*ts and giggles, I went through the Scout top 10 from 2, 3, 5 and 10 years out, and many of them in the NBA. A quick look at the top 100 shows that a great number of them had solid college careers at least, and if I looked through them person by person I am sure many of them are making money playing basketball somewhere.
Even the two individuals you cite are interesting. Brian Butch was redshirted sure. But by the end of his career was first team all Big Ten. You say Tokoto has been "pedestrian?" He averaged 30 mpg as a sophomore. 9.3/5.8/3.0. That is pretty damn good playing for team like North Carolina. I would LOVE to have him at Marquette!!! (Not gonna happen.)
We say this stuff every...time...we get a commit from someone outside the top 100. I agree with you in that I like Heldt and that he seems like a late bloomer who can really make an impact. But that doesn't mean the ratings system is inaccurate. By and large, the top 10 is better than the next 10. The top 100 is better than the next 100.
Exceptions? No doubt. But don't fool yourself into thinking they are anything but exceptions.
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+1,000,000
I look at the rankings like everyone else does. It may give some insight on a players potential, but some fans, and not just here by a long shot, absolutely obsess about it. Jamail Jones was another top 100 who got here and showed he can't play at a high D-1 level.
I couldn't care less if Heldt winds up being a top 100 before arriving at MU. I'm good right now with his size and skill set. We'll just have to wait and see until then.
Our culture always wants to hype and heap greatness on someone well before they're in a position to show whether they have what it takes or not. The top 100 in football and basketball recruiting is just another example. And it's not just limited to whether a guy makes it in the top 100. I'm willing to bet we'd all laugh, mock, and smear the rankings of 2,3,5,10 years ago, and who was near the top of the top 100. Brian Butch was supposed to be the second coming according to all the rankings and Ryan thought so little of his readiness to play out of the gate he redshirted him! Tokoto is another example, highly ranked, sickening amount of hype, does anyone feel bad he didn't wind up at MU? He's been extremely pedestrian at UNC thus far.
Wasn't Tokoto so hyped that he had a party at restaurant with a zillion supporters and made his decision to go to UNC live on TV? And wasn't he being praised as one of the best players in state of Wisconsin history?
Fast forward to 2015 years and MU alone could have five Wisconsin players better than him ... Duane, Burton, Fischer, Henry and Stone. And don't forget about Looney.
Hype versus reality.
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
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Hutch, you are picking out all exceptions to the rule and saying "hey, the rule sucks."
For sh*ts and giggles, I went through the Scout top 10 from 2, 3, 5 and 10 years out, and many of them in the NBA. A quick look at the top 100 shows that a great number of them had solid college careers at least, and if I looked through them person by person I am sure many of them are making money playing basketball somewhere.
Even the two individuals you cite are interesting. Brian Butch was redshirted sure. But by the end of his career was first team all Big Ten. You say Tokoto has been "pedestrian?" He averaged 30 mpg as a sophomore. 9.3/5.8/3.0. That is pretty damn good playing for team like North Carolina. I would LOVE to have him at Marquette!!! (Not gonna happen.)
We say this stuff every...time...we get a commit from someone outside the top 100. I agree with you in that I like Heldt and that he seems like a late bloomer who can really make an impact. But that doesn't mean the ratings system is inaccurate. By and large, the top 10 is better than the next 10. The top 100 is better than the next 100.
Exceptions? No doubt. But don't fool yourself into thinking they are anything but exceptions.
I don't know about Hutch. All I say is, "Don't obsess over this stuff, because we don't really know."
Yes, I'd love to have a bunch of top-25 studs. But history shows that lots of non-top-50 types go on to be superstars. Lots.
I have little reason to doubt your findings of the success of top 100s. I guess I have less problem hyping those than I do with the way some folks casually, cavalierly dismiss everybody who isn't a top 100.
I'm not cherry-picking here. Right off the top of my head, I can rattle off numerous non-4 or non-5 stars who very recently have gone on to be outstanding college players.
I'm happy about every one of Wojo's recruits, and I'll be happy if Henry joins 'em.
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
You're that excited about 9 ppg out of Tokoto? Someone that was a consensus, what, top 20 player, coming out of high school? If he had been somewhere in the 60's,70's, 80's, I'd say he was probably rated appropriately.
Butch had ONE season where he averaged double digit scoring. He never averaged 7 rebounds per game in his UW career. Are you really saying he didn't turn out severely overrated going into UW?
There are hits and misses galore in top 100 rankings. Our own program is an example.
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
No. If Burton had a similar year, I'd be disappointed.
Tokoto has shown improvement where you'd expect - defensively, lower turnovers, but still has a lot of work to do offensively. MU needs more from all three that you named than Tokoto gave last year offensively as a medium-usage guy with a high turnover rate for his position, and a total shot % that would have placed him behind only the following on MU's team last year: Dawson, DWill, Juan & Steve.
Tokoto will be fine, but his sophomore year was underwhelming and MU fans would be nuts to be 'thrilled' with a similar performance by Duane, Burton or Fischer.
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Wasn't Tokoto so hyped that he had a party at restaurant with a zillion supporters and made his decision to go to UNC live on TV? And wasn't he being praised as one of the best players in state of Wisconsin history?
Fast forward to 2015 years and MU alone could have five Wisconsin players better than him ... Duane, Burton, Fischer, Henry and Stone. And don't forget about Looney.
Hype versus reality.
Tokoto is likely better than at least 3 of those guys and potentially 4.
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Could we change the title of this thread? It has nothing to do with Heidt.
A more appropriate title would be "another hijacked thread pissing match, just like most of the others."
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Could we change the title of this thread? It has nothing to do with Heidt.
A more appropriate title would be "another hijacked thread pissing match, just like most of the others."
I guess you have never sat in a bar with a group of guys and talked sheet over lagers because Scoop has the very same dynamic. Go with the flow, man
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
Tokoto also shot 22% from 3 and 50% from the FT line. If he had played at MU last year, Scoop would have been calling for his head and hoping that he transfers out at the end of the year.
Not saying that is the right assessment, but that is what would have happened.
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Tokoto's next stop is the Association. I'd be thrilled with a playa like that, white, black, Jew, or gentile.
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Tokoto is likely better than at least 3 of those guys and potentially 4.
Not saying I wouldn't be happy with JP but I am more than satisfied with the WI guys who chose to be at Marquette
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Tokoto's next stop is the Association. I'd be thrilled with a playa like that, white, black, Jew, or gentile.
Tokoto is a real long shot for the NBA at this point.
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
+1000
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Tokoto is likely better than at least 3 of those guys and potentially 4.
I completely agree. But Burton is the best of them all. Im just saying
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
I'll guarantee you Burton will far exceed Tokoto's sophomore stats. Burton will be a monster this upcoming season...as a junior...forget about it...probably early entry candidate at that point.
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I'll guarantee you Burton will far exceed Tokoto's sophomore stats.
I am excited to see how Burton explodes this season. How this kid only played 12 mpg on a team that struggled is mind boggling. Bert was an idiot.
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Tokoto had a very solid sophomore year. If Duane, Burton or Fischer had that year, we would be thrilled. You guys need to pay more attention.
Agree. Tokoto is a defensive stud and his game is on the rise. Would love to have him on our team.
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I'll guarantee you Burton will far exceed Tokoto's sophomore stats. Burton will be a monster this upcoming season...as a junior...forget about it...probably early entry candidate at that point.
Agree with your thought re Deonte, though I think it will be hard for him to be an early entry candidate given his "short" stature which pretty much slots him as a 2G in the NBA. Needs to really work on his handle and his left hand and his defense to be a 2 in the NBA. His conditioning was also an issue as a frosh, so he needs to work on that as well.
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I am excited to see how Burton explodes this season. How this kid only played 12 mpg on a team that struggled is mind boggling. Bert was an idiot.
+1 - How Buzz pulled him against Xavier in the Big East tourney game with 7 minutes and sat him till 30 seconds left in the game was the most head scratching move of his entire tenure - yes - even moreso than playing Jake and Derrick more minutes than any other players on the team! Burton was destroying Xavier that whole game. Beyond belief...if he was concerned about Burton tiring...pull him at the 7 minute mark and worst case bring him back at the under 4 timeout. But with 30 seconds left? Jesus.
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Agree with your thought re Deonte, though I think it will be hard for him to be an early entry candidate given his "short" stature which pretty much slots him as a 2G in the NBA. Needs to really work on his handle and his left hand and his defense to be a 2 in the NBA. His conditioning was also an issue as a frosh, so he needs to work on that as well.
Agree on his conditioning being his biggest challenge from what I saw last year. His height doesn't concern me at the next level - even if he plays the 3. His strength and athleticism alone will allow him to play the 3 at next level. He's a genetic freak. Barkley-like. Want to see Deonte rebound better this year - see that as a huge area of potential improvement for him.
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Agree on his conditioning being his biggest challenge from what I saw last year. His height doesn't concern me at the next level - even if he plays the 3. His strength and athleticism alone will allow him to play the 3 at next level. He's a genetic freak. Barkley-like. Want to see Deonte rebound better this year - see that as a huge area of potential improvement for him.
Hope he can pull that off in the NBA. But, at 6'4", he is truly really short for the 3 in the NBA. Can he go to war with much taller guys like the Greek Freak...?
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Hope he can pull that off in the NBA. But, at 6'4", he is truly really short for the 3 in the NBA. Can he go to war with much taller guys like the Greek Freak...?
Charles Barkley was a 6'4 power forward...
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Tokoto is a real long shot for the NBA at this point.
Agreed. He is a 6'5" 200 lbs SF. He is basically the same size as Vander Blue, except a worse shooter and less able to play the PG position.
Vander's problem was he was not a good enough shooter to play SG in the NBA and not proven at the point. Tokoto is more athletic than Vander, but is going to suffer the same problems at the next level.
Burton, may be able to develop the NBA game despite his size limitations. He needs to continue to work on his shot so that he can be more versatile, but his strength will go a long ways to help him overcome height issues.
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Charles Barkley was a 6'4 power forward...
Burton is no Charles Barkley!
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+1 - How Buzz pulled him against Xavier in the Big East tourney game with 7 minutes and sat him till 30 seconds left in the game was the most head scratching move of his entire tenure - yes - even moreso than playing Jake and Derrick more minutes than any other players on the team! Burton was destroying Xavier that whole game. Beyond belief...if he was concerned about Burton tiring...pull him at the 7 minute mark and worst case bring him back at the under 4 timeout. But with 30 seconds left? Jesus.
Bingo!!
After that game, I wanted Buzz outta here.
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I completely agree. But Burton is the best of them all. Im just saying
Every college coach in the country would disagree.
But we all feel you are one of the great scouts this nation has ever produced.
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Burton is no Charles Barkley!
+1000. The basketball world is full of false Barkley comparisons to any undersized guy with athleticism and a little beef to him.
I love Deonte, am excited about his future at MU, and think he has incredible gifts offensively, but unless he starts showing an ounce of ability to defend, the NBA won't give him a look. There are tons of guys who can put the ball in the basket a lot, the NBA can find those guys easily. He's not going to play in the NBA unless his defense improves a ton. Why would they want an undersized guy who can't defend? That's a bad combo for an NBA look.
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+1000. The basketball world is full of false Barkley comparisons to any undersized guy with athleticism and a little beef to him.
I love Deonte, am excited about his future at MU, and think he has incredible gifts offensively, but unless he starts showing an ounce of ability to defend, the NBA won't give him a look. There are tons of guys who can put the ball in the basket a lot, the NBA can find those guys easily. He's not going to play in the NBA unless his defense improves a ton. Why would they want an undersized guy who can't defend? That's a bad combo for an NBA look.
Deonte's defense was far better than some here want to assert. He was the most disruptive force defensively the team had. There may have been some one on one defending and team concept defending where he struggled as most freshman do - but his defensive instincts were far and away the best on the team. I like a guy who can get steals, block shots..and yes..even get deflections. Deonte did all of those things better than anybody on the team last year.
I'm beyond confident in saying Deonte will be a first round draft choice in the NBA...think he could be as much after his junior season...no doubt if he stays 4 years.
Buzz blew it with Deonte last season...Deonte will kill it this season when he gets consistent playing time.
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Deonte came out of the game against Xavier because he had just blown two assignments leading to lay ups. I knew he was coming out. Freshmen can't do that. I was surprised he didn't go back in sooner. Burton is going to be a very good college basketball player. But just for fun, name all of the 6'5 small forwards who (A) came out early and (B) are starters in the NBA. Jae had to learn to play the 2-3 and is a good 8-9th man for Mavs. JFB plays the shooting guard for the bulls. Ners, your opinion is that Deonte is going to be better than both of those guys? I hope you are correct.
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Charles Barkley was a 6'4 power forward...
Barkley was 6'6"
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Barkley was 6'6"
Only in the program. I've stood next to Charles and he is NOT 6'6"
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I've stood next to Charles
First name basis??
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Deonte came out of the game against Xavier because he had just blown two assignments leading to lay ups. I knew he was coming out. Freshmen can't do that. I was surprised he didn't go back in sooner. Burton is going to be a very good college basketball player. But just for fun, name all of the 6'5 small forwards who (A) came out early and (B) are starters in the NBA. Jae had to learn to play the 2-3 and is a good 8-9th man for Mavs. JFB plays the shooting guard for the bulls. Ners, your opinion is that Deonte is going to be better than both of those guys? I hope you are correct.
Deonte will be a better college player than Jimmy. Hard to say if he'll be better than Jae was a a senior and Big East POY. Deonte is a much better athlete than Jae. Jae was an incredibly heady player...but COULDN'T DREAM of being Deonte athletically. Jae Crowder never dunked on anybody while at MU....and barely* (use that loosely) can dunk the basketball. Burton can do stupid sh$t in that realm athletically.
Jimmy is a better athlete than Jae - yet still not the athletic freakishness of Deonte. But yes, I believe Deonte can have a better pro career than Jae...Jimmy is on the rise and has the work ethic to make himself into a very good player...and the edge over Jae as Jimmy is better athletically.
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No. If Burton had a similar year, I'd be disappointed.
Tokoto has shown improvement where you'd expect - defensively, lower turnovers, but still has a lot of work to do offensively. MU needs more from all three that you named than Tokoto gave last year offensively as a medium-usage guy with a high turnover rate for his position, and a total shot % that would have placed him behind only the following on MU's team last year: Dawson, DWill, Juan & Steve.
Tokoto will be fine, but his sophomore year was underwhelming and MU fans would be nuts to be 'thrilled' with a similar performance by Duane, Burton or Fischer.
Tokoto's PPG as a sophomore was better than any MU sophomore since DJO. Before that it was the Amigos. He had better sophomore PPG than Blue, JFB, Jamil, etc.
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Only in the program. I've stood next to Charles and he is NOT 6'6"
And, Deonte probably is not 6'4" ...... ;)
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Tokoto's PPG as a sophomore was better than any MU sophomore since DJO. Before that it was the Amigos. He had better sophomore PPG than Blue, JFB, Jamil, etc.
That's a key difference between you and me. I don't pay much attention to PPG when judging whether a player was good. That would make things a lot easier - one could just look at the nation's highest per game scorers and have everything figured out.
PPG is the output of various inputs.. if you don't understand the inputs, PPG isn't useful from a player-quality perspective.
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To be clear:
1) I think Tokoto could have a big year - he's a good player, BUT
2) I would NOT be thrilled if any of the 3 MU players had a comparable year in 2014-15 and for those that do, I think you're nuts.
PS -
Deonte's defense is an important consideration this coming year. His % stats were excellent - 4.1% blk and 5.2% stl. However, he got all his blocks early in the year and struggled with fouls... the fouls were masked somewhat by playing time (coaching decisions, not due to foul trouble).. but 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes ain't gonna work well. This should improve - but by how much? - and can he get back to blocking shots, but with a significantly decreased propensity to foul?
Pretty telling of some things when you look at his blocks on a game-by-game basis over the season...
PPS - Tokoto had a so so year as a sophomore at UNC.
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Only in the program. I've stood next to Charles and he is NOT 6'6"
+1
I had an opportunity to have some drinks with Sir Charles at an NBA All-Star game when it was in Washington DC. He's closer to 6' 4" but he was probably the broadest shouldered person I've ever come across.
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That's a key difference between you and me. I don't pay much attention to PPG when judging whether a player was good. That would make things a lot easier - one could just look at the nation's highest per game scorers and have everything figured out.
PPG is the output of various inputs.. if you don't understand the inputs, PPG isn't useful from a player-quality perspective.
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To be clear:
1) I think Tokoto could have a big year - he's a good player, BUT
2) I would NOT be thrilled if any of the 3 MU players had a comparable year in 2014-15 and for those that do, I think you're nuts.
PS -
Deonte's defense is an important consideration this coming year. His % stats were excellent - 4.1% blk and 5.2% stl. However, he got all his blocks early in the year and struggled with fouls... the fouls were masked somewhat by playing time (coaching decisions, not due to foul trouble).. but 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes ain't gonna work well. This should improve - but by how much? - and can he get back to blocking shots, but with a significantly decreased propensity to foul?
Pretty telling of some things when you look at his blocks on a game-by-game basis over the season...
PPS - Tokoto had a so so year as a sophomore at UNC.
Here's the difference between you and me...I think blocks and steals are awful ways to determine how good a player is defensively. He took too many chances. Was out of position too often.
Here's the similarity between you and me....you are right on regarding ppg. I was just using it as one example.
Tokoto had a fine sophomore year. If Burton matches I will be pleased.
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Here's the difference between you and me...I think blocks and steals are awful ways to determine how good a player is defensively. He took too many chances. Was out of position too often.
Here's the similarity between you and me....you are right on regarding ppg. I was just using it as one example.
Tokoto had a fine sophomore year. If Burton matches I will be pleased.
No, no. I inferred block % and steal % are useful factors in evaluating defense. I also inferred defense was an issue for Deonte despite his high %'s -- you're making things up.
PPG - that was what your post(s) have argued. Tokoto was fantastic because as a sophomore his PPG couldn't be matched by recent MU players.
If Burton matches what? Tokoto's PPG? Fine, I guess. But if you mean if Burton matches Tokoto's overall offensive profile? No. That would be disappointing.
BTW, when you say 'pleased'... does that mean you would no longer be 'thrilled' and you're tempering your previous comments? That is pleasing to me.
Anyway, I think they'll both be better offensively than Tokoto's 2013-14 season.
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Jay Bee...when you decide to stop simply talking, and actually say something, let me know ok? Because I addressed each point you brought up.
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+1 - How Buzz pulled him against Xavier in the Big East tourney game with 7 minutes and sat him till 30 seconds left in the game was the most head scratching move of his entire tenure - yes - even moreso than playing Jake and Derrick more minutes than any other players on the team! Burton was destroying Xavier that whole game. Beyond belief...if he was concerned about Burton tiring...pull him at the 7 minute mark and worst case bring him back at the under 4 timeout. But with 30 seconds left? Jesus.
He got pulled against Xavier after two straight possessions where he took quick shots and did not score.
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He got pulled against Xavier after two straight possessions where he took quick shots and did not score.
Ike benched Patton for being a bonehead. But when the game was on the line Patton was back in as the commander of the 3rd Army. Ike was brilliant. Bert is twisted.
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Deonte came out of the game against Xavier because he had just blown two assignments leading to lay ups. I knew he was coming out. Freshmen can't do that. I was surprised he didn't go back in sooner.
Agree completely. I wasn't surprised Burton got pulled. I was really surprised he didn't go back in 2 minutes later after the coach or an assistant reminded Burton of his responsibilities.
I also agree with various others about Deonte's defense. He all too often gambled himself out of position, but at least he often was disruptive and forced steals that led to layups. We had far too few easy baskets last season; Deonte's D resulted in a high pct of the ones we got. I like to think that as he matures and as he gets coached, he will pick his spots better and be an all-around good defender.
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Barkley was 6'6"
Barkely was LISTED at 6'6. His real height is 6'4
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He got pulled against Xavier after two straight possessions where he took quick shots and did not score.
So Buzz pulling him was justified?
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Agreed. He is a 6'5" 200 lbs SF. He is basically the same size as Vander Blue, except a worse shooter and less able to play the PG position.
Vander's problem was he was not a good enough shooter to play SG in the NBA and not proven at the point. Tokoto is more athletic than Vander, but is going to suffer the same problems at the next level.
Burton, may be able to develop the NBA game despite his size limitations. He needs to continue to work on his shot so that he can be more versatile, but his strength will go a long ways to help him overcome height issues.
Comparing Vander vs. Deonte as freshman there is little competition IMHO. Deonte has a presence and strength that Vander simply did not have. Agree on the shooting, however.
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He got pulled against Xavier after two straight possessions where he took quick shots and did not score.
Which is yet another example of Buzz being an awful coach last year. Buzz's leash was WAY too short with ironically, some of his most talented players - Burton, Mayo, Steve, Dawson - and way too long with some of his most limited players.
You don't pull a kid who is tearing a team up all game long..and basically in the zone...out for missing two shots in a row...regardless if they were early in the possession or late in the possession. (Especially not for the last 6:30 of 7:00 minutes of a must win game.) Given our severe deficiencies at the guard position last year...I had ZERO problem with Burton putting up shots...early..and often...because if not...many times our offense was bogged down and taking a worse quality shot than what Burton could get/create early..or at any time he wanted.
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First name basis??
Almost.
I knew his first name.
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Comparing Vander vs. Deonte as freshman there is little competition IMHO. Deonte has a presence and strength that Vander simply did not have. Agree on the shooting, however.
I would agree. My comment was in reference to Tokoto although the shooting is definitely relevant to Deonte also. Deonte is a beast.
Tokoto and Vander though are actually quite comparable.
The threads bouncing from topic to topic make it hard to figure out sometimes.
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Almost.
I knew his first name.
Well, that makes it official then. Was he comfortable addressing you as brand?
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Deonte was a beast on offense. His lapses on defense led to way too many baskets, which often neutralized his offensive output.
If he gets it dialed in on defense this year...tough, stick to you man defense, he will be something special.
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Deonte is scary athletic. His D needs to improve (and probably will). He will need to know how to stay on the floor (avoid fouling).
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He will need to know how to stay on the floor (avoid fouling).
That is the number one problem for Burton.
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And, Deonte probably is not 6'4" ...... ;)
He is...when he's standing on his tippytoes
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So, not as tall as Vander, but going to make the league as a small forward.
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+1,000,000
I look at the rankings like everyone else does. It may give some insight on a players potential, but some fans, and not just here by a long shot, absolutely obsess about it. Jamail Jones was another top 100 who got here and showed he can't play at a high D-1 level.
I couldn't care less if Heldt winds up being a top 100 before arriving at MU. I'm good right now with his size and skill set. We'll just have to wait and see until then.
Our culture always wants to hype and heap greatness on someone well before they're in a position to show whether they have what it takes or not. The top 100 in football and basketball recruiting is just another example. And it's not just limited to whether a guy makes it in the top 100. I'm willing to bet we'd all laugh, mock, and smear the rankings of 2,3,5,10 years ago, and who was near the top of the top 100. Brian Butch was supposed to be the second coming according to all the rankings and Ryan thought so little of his readiness to play out of the gate he redshirted him! Tokoto is another example, highly ranked, sickening amount of hype, does anyone feel bad he didn't wind up at MU? He's been extremely pedestrian at UNC thus far.
On a specific player basis, you are 100% correct, we shouldn't get that tied into a specific ranking.
HOWEVER, on the whole, most good teams have highly ranked guys, and most good players were highly ranked.
So, I wouldn't stress about Matt Heldt's ranking specifically, as not all players and situations are created equal.
If we want to look at rankings, I'd look at Wojo's composite numbers for all of the guys he's bringing in, that's probably a more accurate way of looking at it.
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So, not as tall as Vander, but going to make the league as a small forward.
Have you ever played against a guy who is significantly bigger, stronger, and more athletic than you - but shorter by 3-4"? Your 3-4" of height don't compensate for the areas the shorter, bigger, stronger, more athletic guy has on you.
And btw - Vander's biggest problem - like Jamil - is that though they are athletic...they both play very erect (insert jokes here) - neither plays with a low center of gravity, neither have a great first step burst, and neither are able to get low and turn the corner well on a baseline drive, or drive in general...D-Wade was a great example of this in his prime..look how low to the floor he could play...even though he was 6'3". They both can jump well though...which is one measure of athleticism...but it is the total package of athletic gifts that matter in basketball....and Burton has that combination.
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Have you ever played against a guy who is significantly bigger, stronger, and more athletic than you - but shorter by 3-4"? Your 3-4" of height don't compensate for the areas the shorter, bigger, stronger, more athletic guy has on you.
And btw - Vander's biggest problem - like Jamil - is that though they are athletic...they both play very erect (insert jokes here) - neither plays with a low center of gravity, neither have a great first step burst, and neither are able to get low and turn the corner well on a baseline drive, or drive in general...D-Wade was a great example of this in his prime..look how low to the floor he could play...even though he was 6'3". They both can jump well though...which is one measure of athleticism...but it is the total package of athletic gifts that matter in basketball....and Burton has that combination.
I LOVE Burton as a player, and his athletic ability and skill set are rare.
With this said, there aren't many guys with his make-up at the next level. Not saying that it's impossible, but he's going to have to be elite in several areas to make it.
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Burton's shot will evolve and he'll be a versitile 2G in the league... Be able to switch to SF when needed... Simple!
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If Burton makes the association, it will be as a bruising 2 guard. He is simply too small to play the small forward position. In order to make the league, he needs to work on...well...everything, but specifically his shooting and defense.
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Burton's shot will evolve and he'll be a versitile 2G in the league... Be able to switch to SF when needed... Simple!
Being a 2 guard in the NBA is NOT about his shot evolving!
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The evolution of a well rounded game! He has all sorts of work to do but the base physical aspects are there... For everything I've read, he's a hard worker, which combined with natural talent usually translates to higher levels of success... Isn't this coaching staff emphasizing skill developement? Looks like a 2G to me if he makes it to the association.
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The evolution of a well rounded game! He has all sorts of work to do but the base physical aspects are there... For everything I've read, he's a hard worker, which combined with natural talent usually translates to higher levels of success... Isn't this coaching staff emphasizing skill developement? Looks like a 2G to me if he makes it to the association.
His shot needs work, it comes off his fingers like a knuckle ball, needs to improve on that. Barkley was not much taller, but was a Warrior. Needs to learn how to use his body to block
out. Charles did that, and then took the ball full court, no one wanted to stop him.
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I see Burton as a four year player unless he does something dumb like Vander. Burton bigger and stronger than Vander. Vander quicker, better defender and ball handler. Burton the better offensive player. I hope Burton makes the NBA, but I think with his height it is a long shot. He is athletic, but virtually everyone in the NBA is athletic.
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On a specific player basis, you are 100% correct, we shouldn't get that tied into a specific ranking.
HOWEVER, on the whole, most good teams have highly ranked guys, and most good players were highly ranked.
So, I wouldn't stress about Matt Heldt's ranking specifically, as not all players and situations are created equal.
If we want to look at rankings, I'd look at Wojo's composite numbers for all of the guys he's bringing in, that's probably a more accurate way of looking at it.
What happened to guns?
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His shot needs work, it comes off his fingers like a knuckle ball, needs to improve on that. Barkley was not much taller, but was a Warrior. Needs to learn how to use his body to block
out. Charles did that, and then took the ball full court, no one wanted to stop him.
Kind of like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcfkPuqUu8s
Give Burton 2 more years of strength and conditioning work at MU under Todd Smith...and he'll be a monster as a junior. His height doesn't concern me in the least. He can get/create on his own a good* shot off ANYTIME he wants...and not a lot of guys have that ability at the high major level. Vander couldn't, Jamil couldn't.
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What happened to guns?
Guns don't fit my liberal agenda
(kidding).
"canned goods & ammo" was terminology used in another thread, and I liked how it sounded. Makes me sound like a doomsday prepper.
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Kind of like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcfkPuqUu8s
Give Burton 2 more years of strength and conditioning work at MU under Todd Smith...and he'll be a monster as a junior. His height doesn't concern me in the least. He can get/create on his own a good* shot off ANYTIME he wants...and not a lot of guys have that ability at the high major level. Vander couldn't, Jamil couldn't.
Exactly, who wants to stop that! Add 15-20 lbs. more of muscle and for sure in 4 years we will have a chance to play in the league.
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Have you ever played against a guy who is significantly bigger, stronger, and more athletic than you - but shorter by 3-4"? Your 3-4" of height don't compensate for the areas the shorter, bigger, stronger, more athletic guy has on you.
And btw - Vander's biggest problem - like Jamil - is that though they are athletic...they both play very erect (insert jokes here) - neither plays with a low center of gravity, neither have a great first step burst, and neither are able to get low and turn the corner well on a baseline drive, or drive in general...D-Wade was a great example of this in his prime..look how low to the floor he could play...even though he was 6'3". They both can jump well though...which is one measure of athleticism...but it is the total package of athletic gifts that matter in basketball....and Burton has that combination.
So, how did Marquette win the St. John's and the Davidson games in 2013?
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So, how did Marquette win the St. John's and the Davidson games in 2013?
(http://cf.chucklesnetwork.agj.co/items/2/7/9/5/3/pissed-my-pants-no-leakage.jpg)
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Have you ever played against a guy who is significantly bigger, stronger, and more athletic than you - but shorter by 3-4"? Your 3-4" of height don't compensate for the areas the shorter, bigger, stronger, more athletic guy has on you.
And btw - Vander's biggest problem - like Jamil - is that though they are athletic...they both play very erect (insert jokes here) - neither plays with a low center of gravity, neither have a great first step burst, and neither are able to get low and turn the corner well on a baseline drive, or drive in general...D-Wade was a great example of this in his prime..look how low to the floor he could play...even though he was 6'3". They both can jump well though...which is one measure of athleticism...but it is the total package of athletic gifts that matter in basketball....and Burton has that combination.
Umm, Vander has a very good first step. That is not his problem. His problems relative to the NBA are that he can't shoot well and he is somewhat short for a 2G. Agree re Jamil playing too erect with that high center of gravity.
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Agree re Jamil playing too erect .
I have never found this to be a problem, personally.
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...
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Have you ever played against a guy who is significantly bigger, stronger, and more athletic than you - but shorter by 3-4"? Your 3-4" of height don't compensate for the areas the shorter, bigger, stronger, more athletic guy has on you.
That is fine for college, but in the NBA most players will be as strong and as athletic as Burton is so 3-4" matters a lot.
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Ners, you can make the same argument for Davante, using his mass and bulk to get his shot off against bigger defenders. At the end of the day, he struggled getting shots off against athletic bigs. And his draft status reflects that. Deonte is going to have to be able to get his shot off against equally athletic players 3-4-5-6 inches bigger than he is on a consistent basis to make it to the league. IMO, like Davante, he is going to be as very good college basketball player, one that I am thrilled to have at MU. But I will be shocked if he gets to the league... UNLESS...he learns to finish equally well with either hand in traffic, gets a lot better and quicker with his jump shot, and improves his handle drastically.
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Despite all the talk about being as 2 guard - in the NBA you are what you can defend.
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What do you guys think is more important, tracking deflections or erections?
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Ners, you can make the same argument for Davante, using his mass and bulk to get his shot off against bigger defenders. At the end of the day, he struggled getting shots off against athletic bigs. And his draft status reflects that. Deonte is going to have to be able to get his shot off against equally athletic players 3-4-5-6 inches bigger than he is on a consistent basis to make it to the league. IMO, like Davante, he is going to be as very good college basketball player, one that I am thrilled to have at MU. But I will be shocked if he gets to the league... UNLESS...he learns to finish equally well with either hand in traffic, gets a lot better and quicker with his jump shot, and improves his handle drastically.
To add to this - it's also worth noting that most of the MU guys that have found recent success in the NBA have had prototypical size for the positions. Only exception is Crowder. Matthews, JFB, Novak, Buycks all have the standard size for their positions. Wade is a touch off, but his skill set compensated for what is (at most) a one inch variance.
Point of all of this being that as good a player as Burton may be, he'll probably need to be able to do it from the 2. Essentially, he'll need to be to the SG position what Marcus Smart is hoping to be at the 1.
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What do you guys think is more important, tracking deflections or erections?
Well, speaking for myself, I nod with quiet satisfaction every morning as the parachute canopy settles back as bed cover when I get up to begin my day
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So, how did Marquette win the St. John's and the Davidson games in 2013?
Haha...nice try Murs...Davidson wasn't baseline drive...it was a straight line/coming at you downhill drive. Don't recall if St. Johns was from top of key too, or along baseline - not that it matters that much...but here's what you don't account for:
The defense in those situations is hell bent against fouling...and cannot risk the slightest bump/body to body contact...why do you think you always see teams score easily in the last 20 seconds of a game...when down 5-7 and getting the ball offensively? They shove it down your throat and know you don't want to commit a foul. But I realize with a limited basketball IQ it may be hard to grasp the distinction between those end of game situations and normal possessions that occur for 98% of a basketball game.
Vander has a pretty good first step...and is great in the open court...he was not a great get to the basket finisher off the dribble in the halfcourt set. Developed a nice midrange pull up game as a junior...but rarely in halfcourt setting would you see Vander go 1 on 1...take his guy to the bucket...effectively.
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Ners, you can make the same argument for Davante, using his mass and bulk to get his shot off against bigger defenders. At the end of the day, he struggled getting shots off against athletic bigs. And his draft status reflects that. Deonte is going to have to be able to get his shot off against equally athletic players 3-4-5-6 inches bigger than he is on a consistent basis to make it to the league. IMO, like Davante, he is going to be as very good college basketball player, one that I am thrilled to have at MU. But I will be shocked if he gets to the league... UNLESS...he learns to finish equally well with either hand in traffic, gets a lot better and quicker with his jump shot, and improves his handle drastically.
Comparing Burton and Davante isn't remotely relevant -just because both guys are big for their respective position from a weight/mass perspective. One can't jump over the phone book. The other can take off outside the protected paint area..off of 2 feet...and dunk over a 6'9" 240 power forward.
I'll gladly take a wager on Deotne making the league. PM me if interested.
I always project early on players/coaches ability...and generally am pretty confident in my predictions. Unlike some here - Guns - who won't ever project or predict anything..certainly it can open me up for eating a sh$tburger...but I'd rather go on record with predictions than sitting around and smugly posting after the fact...this board is built for speculation..why not engage in it? Who cares if one is wrong? I sure was about Erik Williams and Jamial Jones...though both of those guys would be players...
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Please name one player currently in the league with Deonte's combination of size and skillset.
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So, what is the consensus on Bane's size... Skill set being developed.. TBD via personal statements from choach Wojo... Once these are clarified maybe your question can be answered Tower... Otherwise there will just be back and forth on these issues.. :-/... That aside... Deonte's potential is beyond any recent players' here at MU aside from Wade's.
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If Burton makes the association, it will be as a bruising 2 guard. He is simply too small to play the small forward position. In order to make the league, he needs to work on...well...everything, but specifically his shooting and defense.
I agree with every word of this.
It would be lovely if Burton can first become a consistently good college player before we decide if he'll be the first-overall selection or merely a lottery pick.
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I think Deonte has a huge upside at MU. I could honestly see him averaging 18-20 ppg as a senior. Unless he develops serious 2g skills, I just don't see his size and skillset translating to the league. I am not busting on the kid. I saw the same potential everybody else saw. I also seemingly noticed the defensive lapses more, but I chalked it up to him being a freshman and assumed it would get better in the upcoming season(s). He is a skilled athletic freak who did some amazing things and showed tremendous upside. But at the end of the day, he is 6'4 in shoes (or so those in the know seem to think) and there aren't a lot of shooting guards in the NBA at that size, let alone forwards. Maybe we will all be lucky and he will prove me wrong. Here's hoping.
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Please name one player currently in the league with Deonte's combination of size and skillset.
Ha - There isn't one...can't think of one since Barkley...that's what makes Deonte so special...it is extremely rare you get a guy with his athleticism in his body type/frame. Wojo is drooling over coaching Deonte. Practically said as much. Highlighted Deonte as being a kid with a very high ceiling...when asked his early impressions.
So, what is the consensus on Bane's size... Skill set being developed.. TBD via personal statements from choach Wojo... Once these are clarified maybe your question can be answered Tower... Otherwise there will just be back and forth on these issues.. :-/... That aside... Deonte's potential is beyond any recent players' here at MU aside from Wade's.
Someone gets it...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQkM-e-2ASc
7 minute Vander Blue highlight reel from 12-13. He could get to the rack off of the dribble in the halfcourt set.
I agree with Wojo (and Buzz ;)) that Deonte has a high ceiling. I'm just not convinced it translates to the league. Pretty much the only think I disagree with you about as it pertains to Deonte's potential.
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Burton could be the next Alando Tucker for sure. Same game, body type and athleticism. Future All-America candidate. And then maybe an NBA Summer League All-Star.
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Burton could be the next Alando Tucker for sure. Same game, body type and athleticism. Future All-America candidate. And then maybe an NBA Summer League All-Star.
I would happily "settle" for that!
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Burton could be the next Alando Tucker for sure. Same game, body type and athleticism. Future All-America candidate. And then maybe an NBA Summer League All-Star.
I would happily take that. And, there is nothing wrong with that. Tucker was a helluva college player who's skill set and size did not translate to the league. Or Lazar, for that matter.
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Please name one player currently in the league with Deonte's combination of size and skillset.
Shabazz Muhammad
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQkM-e-2ASc
7 minute Vander Blue highlight reel from 12-13. He could get to the rack off of the dribble in the halfcourt set.
I agree with Wojo (and Buzz ;)) that Deonte has a high ceiling. I'm just not convinced it translates to the league. Pretty much the only think I disagree with you about as it pertains to Deonte's potential.
I counted 9 times in Vander's 7 minute highlight video where he got to the rim in a half court set...and in those examples it usually was the result of ball reversals creating the initial separation. As I said...great in transition, very good on pick/roll/pop action....not great at creating/finishing in the halfcourt on 1 on 1 with strong ball pressure being applied.
Burton can get his anytime he wants...not nearly as reliant on ball reversal to create initial separation. Can do that with body, jab step, and explosive first step. Plays with a much better rhythm than Vander - it isn't always about the guy who moves the fastest on the court....such as DJO..Vander to an extent - its who plays with the best rhythm...can get a guy off balance through change of pace, shake and bake, jab step, etc...
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Shabazz Muhammad
6'6, 220. Averaged 3.9 pts for the T-wolves. Vs. 6'4, 240.
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Ha - There isn't one...can't think of one since Barkley...that's what makes Deonte so special...it is extremely rare you get a guy with his athleticism in his body type/frame. Wojo is drooling over coaching Deonte. Practically said as much. Highlighted Deonte as being a kid with a very high ceiling...when asked his early impressions.
I don't think saying there hasn't been a guy since Barkley helps your case, BTW.
Also, comparing Burton to Barkley is like comparing Travis to John Stockton. Might need to hold off on the Hall of Fame comparisons.
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Ners, you can make the same argument for Davante, using his mass and bulk to get his shot off against bigger defenders. At the end of the day, he struggled getting shots off against athletic bigs. And his draft status reflects that. Deonte is going to have to be able to get his shot off against equally athletic players 3-4-5-6 inches bigger than he is on a consistent basis to make it to the league. IMO, like Davante, he is going to be as very good college basketball player, one that I am thrilled to have at MU. But I will be shocked if he gets to the league... UNLESS...he learns to finish equally well with either hand in traffic, gets a lot better and quicker with his jump shot, and improves his handle drastically.
If he develops an outside shot IMHO he can make the NBA as a 2.
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Looks like Ners has a new topic to post obsessively about.
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Looks like Ners has a new topic to post obsessively about.
Looks like you still obsess about me...though your contribution of meeting Charles briefly was a nice addition to this thread. Let me know if you want any Deonte to the NBA action.
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I don't think saying there hasn't been a guy since Barkley helps your case, BTW.
Also, comparing Burton to Barkley is like comparing Travis to John Stockton. Might need to hold off on the Hall of Fame comparisons.
I found this article from several years ago. Look what some knowledgeable people said about Diener. With the right club, Diener could have done some special things in the NBA. Like anyone, it has to be the right fit at the right time.
"If I could play in the league, he can play in the league," Bulls general manager John Paxson said. "He's better than I ever was."
Houston coach Tom Penders agreed.
"He reminds me of John Stockton the way he runs a game, and he can really shoot," he said. "If he learns to run the pick-and-roll the way Stockton did, he'll play in the league for a long time."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-03-08/sports/0503080280_1_marquette-career-travis-diener-basketball-court
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If he develops an outside shot IMHO he can make the NBA as a 2.
No it won't.
In the NBA, you are what you can defend. Deonte is not a 2.
And we haven't even talked about his ball-handling yet.
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I found this article from several years ago. Look what some knowledgeable people said about Diener. With the right club, Diener could have done some special things in the NBA. Like anyone, it has to be the right fit at the right time.
"If I could play in the league, he can play in the league," Bulls general manager John Paxson said. "He's better than I ever was."
Houston coach Tom Penders agreed.
"He reminds me of John Stockton the way he runs a game, and he can really shoot," he said. "If he learns to run the pick-and-roll the way Stockton did, he'll play in the league for a long time."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-03-08/sports/0503080280_1_marquette-career-travis-diener-basketball-court
He played for 3 different teams in the NBA and did nothing special.
Paxson never bothered to acquire Travis when he was in charge of the Bulls, so he wasn't as high on him as he says he was.
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Looks like you still obsess about me...though your contribution of meeting Charles briefly was a nice addition to this thread. Let me know if you want any Deonte to the NBA action.
I just like to have fun with you Ners.
Let's let this year play out. We'll know a lot more about Deonte after this season.
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He played for 3 different teams in the NBA and did nothing special.
Paxson never bothered to acquire Travis when he was in charge of the Bulls, so he wasn't as high on him as he says he was.
This. Of course.
Just because he was great for us, doesn't mean he can be great in the NBA, people. I want our guys to do wonderfully, too, but we have a long history of outstanding college players -- Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Bernard Toone, Oliver Lee, Sam Worthen, Michael Wilson, Brian Wardle, Aaron Hutchins, Jerel McNeal, Lazar Hayward, Vander Blue, Davante Gardner and many, many others -- who simply weren't NBA material. Some got a cup of coffee. Some didn't even get a sip. And that's normal, because hundreds of other programs can say the same.
Moral of the story: It's effen hard to make it in the NBA! Butch was national player of the year, for cripe's sake. Jerel was an All-American. And now we're actually debating Deonte's chances (within a Matt Heldt thread, BTW)? Wow.
I'll settle for him not fouling out too many times, playing decent D and scoring 15 ppg before I start even mentioning his name and the Association in the same sentence again.
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This. Of course.
Just because he was great for us, doesn't mean he can be great in the NBA, people. I want our guys to do wonderfully, too, but we have a long history of outstanding college players -- Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Bernard Toone, Oliver Lee, Sam Worthen, Michael Wilson, Brian Wardle, Aaron Hutchins, Jerel McNeal, Lazar Hayward, Vander Blue, Davante Gardner and many, many others -- who simply weren't NBA material. Some got a cup of coffee. Some didn't even get a sip. And that's normal, because hundreds of other programs can say the same.
Moral of the story: It's effen hard to make it in the NBA! Butch was national player of the year, for cripe's sake. Jerel was an All-American. And now we're actually debating Deonte's chances (within a Matt Heldt thread, BTW)? Wow.
I'll settle for him not fouling out too many times, playing decent D and scoring 15 ppg before I start even mentioning his name and the Association in the same sentence again.
Good post...good points 82. Hard to argue with any of them. Part of the fun of this message board is to speculate and extrapolate how guys will be down the road. Is it premature perhaps? Yes. Fun? Sure.
Nonetheless...like another poster said...I too believe Burton is the best prospect I've seen at MU since Wade. IT was clear to everyone early and often that Wade had "it." Think most here see that similar quality in Deonte. Buzz greatly hampered Deonte last year...we only saw a tiny glimpse of what he's capable of....watch what happens when he gets 25 minutes per game, consistently.
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Good post...good points 82. Hard to argue with any of them. Part of the fun of this message board is to speculate and extrapolate how guys will be down the road. Is it premature perhaps? Yes. Fun? Sure.
Nonetheless...like another poster said...I too believe Burton is the best prospect I've seen at MU since Wade. IT was clear to everyone early and often that Wade had "it." Think most here see that similar quality in Deonte. Buzz greatly hampered Deonte last year...we only saw a tiny glimpse of what he's capable of....watch what happens when he gets 25 minutes per game, consistently.
Ners, I agree with you that Deonte wii be a very good player at MU. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he makes a couple all-BE teams before he graduates.
But I don't see anything that tells me he will be an NBA player. Talent and desire may be there, but there are serious size limitations in play.
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Ners, I agree with you that Deonte wii be a very good player at MU. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he makes a couple all-BE teams before he graduates.
But I don't see anything that tells me he will be an NBA player. Talent and desire may be there, but there are serious size limitations in play.
Fair point...and similar to others. My contention is, however, that of all the talent needed to play in the NBA - so long as you are 6'0"+ - that height is the least important quality...particularly once you are over the 6'3" mark. The combination of weight/girth paired with elite level athleticism...is a rare combo...and in my view trumps say 3 to 4 more inches of height...which in Deonte's case would put him in the prototypical 3 height of 6'7 - 6'8". If Deonte can become a solid/consistent perimeter shooter...I have zero doubt he'll make the NBA and be a very good player.
I hated playing guys that were physically stronger/thicker/more athletic than me...even if they were a few inches shorter. Much more difficult to defend...and to also abuse on the other end.
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If Deonte can become a solid/consistent perimeter shooter...I have zero doubt he'll make the NBA and be a very good player.
We certainly agree on this. We also can apply it to thousands of others throughout history. How good a pro would Mateen Cleeves have been if he could have made shots? Or Dom James for that matter? And so on and so on.
Making shots is basketball's equivalent to hitting a curve ball or making putts. So yeah, if Deonte becomes a reliable shooter, I suppose he has a chance ... but he still will have a huge obstacle to overcome height-wise.
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nm
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Fair point...and similar to others. My contention is, however, that of all the talent needed to play in the NBA - so long as you are 6'0"+ - that height is the least important quality...particularly once you are over the 6'3" mark. The combination of weight/girth paired with elite level athleticism...is a rare combo...and in my view trumps say 3 to 4 more inches of height...which in Deonte's case would put him in the prototypical 3 height of 6'7 - 6'8". If Deonte can become a solid/consistent perimeter shooter...I have zero doubt he'll make the NBA and be a very good player.
We'll see. I am not sure Deonte's athleticism is all that "elite" when compared to the NBA.
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We'll see. I am not sure Deonte's athleticism is all that "elite" when compared to the NBA.
That is the point. I am not sure he is even as athletic as DJO was and DJO was not athletic enough.
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That is the point. I am not sure he is even as athletic as DJO was and DJO was not athletic enough.
Actually, that's an interesting comp.
DJO was strong, explosive, quick, creative.
But, he wasn't stronger, more explosive, quicker or move creative than most NBA players. So, he had to be able to shoot it really well (and defend) in order to stick in the league.
Deonte is a physical freak at the college level. At the NBA level, he's not so freaky. He'll have to have some elite basketball skills (shooting, ball-handling, rebounding, defense) in order to stick. Being really athletic isn't enough at that size.
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That is the point. I am not sure he is even as athletic as DJO was and DJO was not athletic enough.
DJO hasn't made the league because he isn't athletic enough...that has nothing to do with why he isn't in the league. He isn't a PG...and he's too short for shooting guard. He isn't a freak (weight wise) for his position either. Deonte and DJO aren't a good comparison. Furthermore...DJO doesn't play with good rhythm either, plays very upright as well...Burton is a much more fluid athlete. Plus he outweighs DJO by about 30 LBS...and that's a big deal.
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We'll see. I am not sure Deonte's athleticism is all that "elite" when compared to the NBA.
You miss the point....it is the combination of his athleticism at his weight that make him unique/elite. There aren't many 240-250lbs 6'4" guys who can explode the way Deonte can. That combo is dynamite and brutal to try to guard...even if you are 6'7/6'8" 220 like most NBA 3's.
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That combo is dynamite and brutal to try to guard...even if you are 6'7/6'8" 220 like most NBA 3's.
I don't know. 6'4" is pretty damn short to be a decent SF in the NBA. I would think that unless he develops a better outside game, that his pro career will be pretty limited.
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DJO hasn't made the league because he isn't athletic enough...that has nothing to do with why he isn't in the league. He isn't a PG...and he's too short for shooting guard. He isn't a freak (weight wise) for his position either. Deonte and DJO aren't a good comparison. Furthermore...DJO doesn't play with good rhythm either, plays very upright as well...Burton is a much more fluid athlete. Plus he outweighs DJO by about 30 LBS...and that's a big deal.
DJO would be a pretty physical PG, but the problem is, he isn't a PG.
Deonte would be a bruising SG, the problem is he is a PF/SF.
I LOVE Deonte, but I think you're underestimating the athleticism in the NBA. It's REALLLLY tough to make the league, and it's even tougher if you don't fit the prototypical body type/position.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's RARE.
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Just because he was great for us, doesn't mean he can be great in the NBA, people. I want our guys to do wonderfully, too, but we have a long history of outstanding college players -- Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Bernard Toone, Oliver Lee, Sam Worthen, Michael Wilson, Brian Wardle, Aaron Hutchins, Jerel McNeal, Lazar Hayward, Vander Blue, Davante Gardner and many, many others -- who simply weren't NBA material. Some got a cup of coffee. Some didn't even get a sip. And that's normal, because hundreds of other programs can say the same.
I agree with your premise, but disagree about putting Butch on the list. He was a first round draft pick who played 82 games as a rookie and averaged nearly 10 ppg. He blew out his knee three games into his second season and never recovered. He clearly had what it took to succeed in the NBA, but an unfortunate injury ended his career. I'd call that a bit more than a cup of coffee. To me, a cup of coffee is a guy like Lazar...who makes a roster for a while, but never makes a significant contribution or shows the potential for a long career.
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DJO would be a pretty physical PG, but the problem is, he isn't a PG.
Deonte would be a bruising SG, the problem is he is a PF/SF.
I LOVE Deonte, but I think you're underestimating the athleticism in the NBA. It's REALLLLY tough to make the league, and it's even tougher if you don't fit the prototypical body type/position.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's RARE.
Happy to take a wager if you like? I don't necessarily disagree with your above point either. My premise is that when you combine great explosion/athleticism with a body weight well above what is typical with that type of athleticism...it's a lethal mix. Barkley is a great example of this. There just aren't many 6'4/6'5" guys who weight 245-250 in this world that athletically have what Burton has..and Barkley had in his prime.
Weight is a huge value. You can look at Sullinger, DeJuan Blair, Glen Davis - none of those guys are very athletic for their position (at all), yet they have alot of value in the league...due to their mass/physicality. They aren't prototype for their position in any way, shape or form.
Serious question for you Guns/Others who are skeptical of Deonte's ability to translate at next level (and you guys may be right)...but....have you ever balled against a guy who was 30 lbs heavier than you, just as athletic if not more than you...but you had 3" of height on him? If so, how did that go? Did you dominate him? Was it a wash? Or did he dominate you? In my experience...I rarely ever dominated a guy like that...almost always was a wash...or he dominated me...
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What amazes me is that some people think Deonte will be able to step right into the SG position in the NBA after never having played it before. And he will do this against guys who have been at the position for years who are among the best in the world.
Barkley and Aguirre were among other undersized guys who didn't make that transition, but they were uniquely talented players worlds better than Burton.
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Serious question for you Guns/Others who are skeptical of Deonte's ability to translate at next level (and you guys may be right)...but....have you ever balled against a guy who was 30 lbs heavier than you, just as athletic if not more than you...but you had 3" of height on him? If so, how did that go?
If they had an inside/outside game, it was difficult. Because you can just give up space.
And that is what I said before. Deonte is going to need a better outside shot for his game to be effective. Without that its a stretch.
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Happy to take a wager if you like? I don't necessarily disagree with your above point either. My premise is that when you combine great explosion/athleticism with a body weight well above what is typical with that type of athleticism...it's a lethal mix. Barkley is a great example of this. There just aren't many 6'4/6'5" guys who weight 245-250 in this world that athletically have what Burton has..and Barkley had in his prime.
Weight is a huge value. You can look at Sullinger, DeJuan Blair, Glen Davis - none of those guys are very athletic for their position (at all), yet they have alot of value in the league...due to their mass/physicality. They aren't prototype for their position in any way, shape or form.
Serious question for you Guns/Others who are skeptical of Deonte's ability to translate at next level (and you guys may be right)...but....have you ever balled against a guy who was 30 lbs heavier than you, just as athletic if not more than you...but you had 3" of height on him? If so, how did that go? Did you dominate him? Was it a wash? Or did he dominate you? In my experience...I rarely ever dominated a guy like that...almost always was a wash...or he dominated me...
#1 I really like Deonte, so I don't want to make a wager against him and then root for him to fail post college. If he makes it, you can call me an idiot forever. That's fine.
#2 My view on Deonte's NBA chances aren't really based upon Deonte specifically, but rather the make up of the league. I think the kid is a tremendous athlete, but the odds just aren't in his favor. I'm not comfortable with the Barkley comparison because Barkley was one of the greatest NBA players of all time, and there is nobody else like him. Ever.
#3 My personal playing experience doesn't really shape my view on a guy's NBA chances. I've played against some good players (of all sizes), but I've never played against guys who ever sniffed the NBA. Therefore, my personal experiences aren't really applicable in my evaluation.
And for the record, I don't think this topic needs to be polarized. Nobody has said he can't make the league. But, several people (including me) have said that it's going to be tough given his physical attributes and skill set. That's it. It's a longshot.
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If they had an inside/outside game, it was difficult. Because you can just give up space.
And that is what I said before. Deonte is going to need a better outside shot for his game to be effective. Without that its a stretch.
Agree Deonte's perimeter shot will need to improve...to make league..but think he will be good enough to be a triple threat...perimeter/penetrator/poster
What amazes me is that some people think Deonte will be able to step right into the SG position in the NBA after never having played it before. And he will do this against guys who have been at the position for years who are among the best in the world.
Barkley and Aguirre were among other undersized guys who didn't make that transition, but they were uniquely talented players worlds better than Burton.
Personally - I don't see Deonte playing the 2 in the NBA - see him being a guy just like Barkely...and you reference another good comparison - Aguirre.
Think it actually would be more important for Deonte to work on his back to the basket moves/post ups...than his perimeter jumper...Aguirre and Barkley made a living down on the block..but could also hit the perimeter jumper with a good percentage.
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I do not know if he will he make the NBA. However, I do believe he needs to stay on college four years to have the best chance to make it, which is what Blue should of done.
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I agree with your premise, but disagree about putting Butch on the list. He was a first round draft pick who played 82 games as a rookie and averaged nearly 10 ppg. He blew out his knee three games into his second season and never recovered. He clearly had what it took to succeed in the NBA, but an unfortunate injury ended his career. I'd call that a bit more than a cup of coffee. To me, a cup of coffee is a guy like Lazar...who makes a roster for a while, but never makes a significant contribution or shows the potential for a long career.
Fair enough, though Lee wasn't all that great as a rookie, was traded in the offseason and was averaging only 2 ppg in the three games he played before the knee injury. I still see your point, though.
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I LOVE Deonte, but I think you're underestimating the athleticism in the NBA. It's REALLLLY tough to make the league, and it's even tougher if you don't fit the prototypical body type/position.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's RARE.
Great point, and we fans get so excited about the possibilities of our favorite players that we have tunnel vision. We know our guy is so good, he'd have to be able to make it. But we don't consider the competition, both those in the league and those wanting to get there.
I used to spend a lot of time around Champaign when the Illini had their big run in "mid-aughts." Their fans were certain Dee Brown would make it because he was reasonably talented and, mostly, amazingly fast. I used to tell him that he wasn't talented at all by NBA standards and that he wasn't even all that fast by NBA standards -- there were 6-foot-8, 240-pounders every bit as fast as he was. The fans called me a dope.
Dee played 68 games over 2 seasons and hasn't been heard from since.
I don't blame the fans. They were just being fans. Their guy was an amazingly fast "freak."
You know what? The NBA is filled with freaks!
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I love Deonte--he is a beast. But we are getting way ahead speculating on how good he will be in the NBA. Let's enjoy what he does for MU for a few more years and see how he develops. Putting him in the NBA already is a bit premature. I remember somebody said Otule was the 2nd coming of Hibbert, so lets not get into that type of hype for Deonte yet. Just hope he does not hit the dreaded sophomore "wall"
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Great point, and we fans get so excited about the possibilities of our favorite players that we have tunnel vision. We know our guy is so good, he'd have to be able to make it. But we don't consider the competition, both those in the league and those wanting to get there.
I used to spend a lot of time around Champaign when the Illini had their big run in "mid-aughts." Their fans were certain Dee Brown would make it because he was reasonably talented and, mostly, amazingly fast. I used to tell him that he wasn't talented at all by NBA standards and that he wasn't even all that fast by NBA standards -- there were 6-foot-8, 240-pounders every bit as fast as he was. The fans called me a dope.
Dee played 68 games over 2 seasons and hasn't been heard from since.
I don't blame the fans. They were just being fans. Their guy was an amazingly fast "freak."
You know what? The NBA is filled with freaks!
Yep. I think he will be stud at MU. He is a freak. Realistically, I'm not sure that tranfers to the league.
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In other news...Matt Heldt committed to MU! Back on topic. Glad to have Matt aboard at MU...but hard to discuss a whole lot about him as we've yet to see him play a game in an MU jersey. Burton is a fascinating case/debate.
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There is always the hot topic of military chicks with guns to discuss to keep things off thread.
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Mark Miller @WisBBYearbook · 3h (Sunday 7/27/14)
Matt Heldt of Neenah is underrated nationally. With the Spartans winning the Fab 48, it will be interesting to see if his stock rises.
Bill Maus @bmaus1090 2h
@WisBBYearbook In your opinion, what should he be ranked?
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Mark Miller @WisBBYearbook 2h
@bmaus1090 Top 100 for sure.
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Matt and his team lost a rough game Friday night. Had control the whole way through until it was tied with a few seconds left. Game was extended and they lost. Good first half by Matt... and Wojo, Carrawell and Phelps were there for the entire game.
That was the last game of pool play.. 3rd of 4th place in their pool for the Spartans. Then things clicked.. got a couple of close wins, including a triple OT quarterfinal win.. 5 in a row yesterday and today to win the 17U Diamond division.. non-Midwest guys watching Matt this week were mostly of the opinion that, "wow, this kid is really pretty good.. "
I'd bet on Scout having him in their top 100. Personally, I really like Matt. Just keep getting a little bit better every week and he'll be in good shape.
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Matt and his team lost a rough game Friday night. Had control the whole way through until it was tied with a few seconds left. Game was extended and they lost. Good first half by Matt... and Wojo, Carrawell and Phelps were there for the entire game.
That was the last game of pool play.. 3rd of 4th place in their pool for the Spartans. Then things clicked.. got a couple of close wins, including a triple OT quarterfinal win.. 5 in a row yesterday and today to win the 17U Diamond division.. non-Midwest guys watching Matt this week were mostly of the opinion that, "wow, this kid is really pretty good.. "
I'd bet on Scout having him in their top 100. Personally, I really like Matt. Just keep getting a little bit better every week and he'll be in good shape.
I think Matt and MU both made a good decision here. He can focus on getting better and I think we got a Diamond in the rough.
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I think Matt and MU both made a good decision here. He can focus on getting better and I think we got a Diamond in the rough.
Maybe we finally got one of those top ranked centers whose stock dramatically increase late in the recruiting season to commit before they jumped in the rankings. (Embiid/Turner reference)
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Evan Daniels of Scout said "There won't be another ranking release without him in it"
He was very impressed
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Matt and his team lost a rough game Friday night. Had control the whole way through until it was tied with a few seconds left. Game was extended and they lost. Good first half by Matt... and Wojo, Carrawell and Phelps were there for the entire game.
That was the last game of pool play.. 3rd of 4th place in their pool for the Spartans. Then things clicked.. got a couple of close wins, including a triple OT quarterfinal win.. 5 in a row yesterday and today to win the 17U Diamond division.. non-Midwest guys watching Matt this week were mostly of the opinion that, "wow, this kid is really pretty good.. "
I'd bet on Scout having him in their top 100. Personally, I really like Matt. Just keep getting a little bit better every week and he'll be in good shape.
For what it's worth, he's supposed to be a good kid too. My niece knows him...Same HS.
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Maybe she could, er, act as a hostess and encourage him to attend MU, hey?
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Not a chance. Family is full of Badger fans. I put up with them.
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Maybe she could, er, act as a hostess and encourage him to attend MU, hey?
Were you attempting to pimp out another scooper's niece?
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If it helps get another big man, what's the harm?
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If it helps get another big man, what's the harm?
Famous last words.
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Evan Daniels of Scout said "There won't be another ranking release without him in it"
He was very impressed
So if we get Cheatham and Ellenson, which is still a big if, then we are looking at potentially 4 top 100 guys in Wojo's first class
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Maybe Wojo will be the opposite of Brent and find kids who improve on their ranking instead of regress ::) By the way talked to some of the players last night, Brent is every bit of crazy as people have imagined him to be.
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Evan Daniels of Scout said "There won't be another ranking release without him in it"
He was very impressed
Not sure if I posted this here or not but I said when he committed that there were not 100 better high school players in the country than Matt. I would be shocked if he isn't ranked after the next round comes out. This doesn't mean I expect him to come in and be a force from day one but he is an extremely skilled Big that should have a nice future.
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Maybe Wojo will be the opposite of Brent and find kids who improve on their ranking instead of regress ::) By the way talked to some of the players last night, Brent is every bit of crazy as people have imagined him to be.
So true. Too often we were not getting the players on the rise.
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Maybe Wojo will be the opposite of Brent and find kids who improve on their ranking instead of regress ::) By the way talked to some of the players last night, Brent is every bit of crazy as people have imagined him to be.
This is just selective memory. We had a couple players who under performed (Erik Williams, Jamail Jones), a couple that performed as expected (Blue, Cadougan), and a bunch that performed better than we thought they would (Gardner, Jae, DJO, Butler).
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This is just selective memory. We had a couple players who under performed (Erik Williams, Jamail Jones), a couple that performed as expected (Blue, Cadougan), and a bunch that performed better than we thought they would (Gardner, Jae, DJO, Butler).
I think he is referring to recruits that are not trending upwards when they commit. E.g Caougan had big offers early, but those teams were backing off and we got him. Or JJJ who had Memphis on him but was a second choice for Memphis and when Memphis signed the guy they wanted, we then got JJJ.
Not so much the actual performance at MU, rather sometimes we got highly rated recruits who were not going up the rankings. It seemed like the guys who were going up the ranking ended up elsewhere.
It maybe selective memory, but it is something that I've often noticed/thought during the process.
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From a big picture perspective, MU should recruit/offer/sign any and every top 100 kid from the state. (assuming Matt is borderline).
It's not that I have a big affinity for WI prep hoops, but there are a lot of built in advantages and efficiencies recruiting locally vs recruiting (insert far away small town).
Now, I'm not saying MU shouldn't still recruit nationally, but if you've got a good player(s) in your backyard, you take 'em.
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I think he is referring to recruits that are not trending upwards when they commit.
Not so much the actual performance at MU, rather sometimes we got highly rated recruits who were not going up the rankings. It seemed like the guys who were going up the ranking ended up elsewhere.
It maybe selective memory, but it is something that I've often noticed/thought during the process.
Agree. Always nice to get a guy whose stock is rising. We've had a couple (Wade, Crowder) and they worked out pretty well. We've had many more whose stock was static or slipping and the results have been mixed. As an example, Vander was a top 25, borderline 5* who slipped to the 40s and a 4*. Many were disappointed that he struggled early on, but he was young for his class (he's a year and a half younger than Todd Mayo) AND coming in on a bit of a down tick.
Nice to see Heldt (much like Fischer) moving sharply to the upside - the trend is your friend.
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Many of Williams so called top 100 recruits did not end up actually being top 100 recruits. I do not care where they were rated, but Eric Williams and Jones were not top 100 recruits
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I've said it numerous times before, but I don't care what a recruit is "rated" by the so-called experts. If Wojo thinks they can come in and help the team win games, that's all that matters.
Is it good that "analysts" think we are recruiting good players. Of course. Perception counts for something. However, results drive the bus. Win games, the players will come.
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I've said it numerous times before, but I don't care what a recruit is "rated" by the so-called experts. If Wojo thinks they can come in and help the team win games, that's all that matters.
Is it good that "analysts" think we are recruiting good players. Of course. Perception counts for something. However, results drive the bus. Win games, the players will come.
Completely agree.
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Hey Jay Bee---- Heldt just got better and smarter every game this year. Will be a HUGE asset to MU's
program.
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I think he is referring to recruits that are not trending upwards when they commit. E.g Caougan had big offers early, but those teams were backing off and we got him. Or JJJ who had Memphis on him but was a second choice for Memphis and when Memphis signed the guy they wanted, we then got JJJ.
Not so much the actual performance at MU, rather sometimes we got highly rated recruits who were not going up the rankings. It seemed like the guys who were going up the ranking ended up elsewhere.
It maybe selective memory, but it is something that I've often noticed/thought during the process.
If you compare pre-senior to post-senior RSCI rankings, almost none of MU's recruits trended downward.
JJJ improved from 57 in the fall RSCI to 30 in the final rankings. That's a huge jump.
Burton fell, but only from 52 to 55. Also flat was Wilson, who improved improved from 60 to 59th.
Steve Taylor fell from 73rd to 82nd. Not a huge change.
Juan Anderson moved up from 95th in the fall, to 81st in the final rankings. Not a huge increase, but certainly not trending downward.
Jamail Jones fell slightly from 74 to 84th
Vander Blue improved from 53rd to 48th.
Cadougan jumped from 70th to 47th
Williams improved from 78th to 57th
Maymon from 85th to 73rd
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Wow, I was going to do that Equalizer but didn't have the time. Great work.
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If you compare pre-senior to post-senior RSCI rankings, almost none of MU's recruits trended downward.
JJJ improved from 57 in the fall RSCI to 30 in the final rankings. That's a huge jump.
Burton fell, but only from 52 to 55. Also flat was Wilson, who improved improved from 60 to 59th.
Steve Taylor fell from 73rd to 82nd. Not a huge change.
Juan Anderson moved up from 95th in the fall, to 81st in the final rankings. Not a huge increase, but certainly not trending downward.
Jamail Jones fell slightly from 74 to 84th
Vander Blue improved from 53rd to 48th.
Cadougan jumped from 70th to 47th
Williams improved from 78th to 57th
Maymon from 85th to 73rd
Rankings are nice for comparing initial recruiting classes, but how many teams have had so many top recruits like Buzz had with so little individual success. I doubt if you compare a lot of these players' college careers to other players in their class they would not be considered top 100 at the end of their careers. I would say of the above players only Burton should of been ranked better than 55th.
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Rankings are nice for comparing initial recruiting classes, but how many teams have had so many top recruits like Buzz had with so little individual success. I doubt if you compare a lot of these players' college careers to other players in their class they would not be considered top 100 at the end of their careers. I would say of the above players only Burton should of been ranked better than 55th.
As I mentioned above, we had a few that underperformed, a few that performed as expected, and a number who performed better than expected.
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Rankings are nice for comparing initial recruiting classes, but how many teams have had so many top recruits like Buzz had with so little individual success. I doubt if you compare a lot of these players' college careers to other players in their class they would not be considered top 100 at the end of their careers. I would say of the above players only Burton should of been ranked better than 55th.
I don't have the energy to cross reference the lists, but I'd be willing to bet that busts happen to many coaches, all the time (Georgia Tech, St. John's, and Maryland seem to come to mind). Especially if you define bust as being outside the theoretical top 100 at the end of their college careers. It just seems like it happens to us all the time because we are only paying attention to Marquette. I would guess that at least 35 top 100 players a year end up finishing their careers with less than top 100 performances.
I would also put Vander, Mbakwe, and Maymon in the top 55 of their respective classes. Burton will probably be. We have no idea about Duane and JJJ (or Luke/Sandy for that matter)
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We have no idea about Duane and JJJ (or Luke/Sandy for that matter)
Sure we do
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Sure we do
????
We know that by the time they graduate if they will have one of top 55 college careers of their respective classes?
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He was right in that this board is full of ideas about players.
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I don't have the energy to cross reference the lists, but I'd be willing to bet that busts happen to many coaches, all the time (Georgia Tech, St. John's, and Maryland seem to come to mind). Especially if you define bust as being outside the theoretical top 100 at the end of their college careers. It just seems like it happens to us all the time because we are only paying attention to Marquette. I would guess that at least 35 top 100 players a year end up finishing their careers with less than top 100 performances.
I would also put Vander, Mbakwe, and Maymon in the top 55 of their respective classes. Burton will probably be. We have no idea about Duane and JJJ (or Luke/Sandy for that matter)
Mbakwe was not a Buzz recruit. It might be closer than I think, Maymon was a very good player, but was he top 55? I would rank anyone ahead of him in his class that were actually drafted whether it was after their first, second, third, fourth or fifth year in college. Maybe the battle for the 55th best player in that class would be between Maymon and Jamil. I think Vander would be closer than Maymon to be top 55 and most likely he was, but he threw away his last year of college so how does that effect his ranking?
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Sure we do
Agreed. And we have a great deal of knowledge of the elite game changer' abilities.
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Agreed. And we have a great deal of knowledge of the elite game changer' abilities.
Shouldn't you be happy? MU landed a big who will be ranked in the top 100.
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Agreed. And we have a great deal of knowledge of the elite game changer' abilities.
Thanks Willie. I was worried that a thread was getting this long without any irrelevant posts about Derrick
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Evan Daniels of Scout in an article today said Heldt along with Creighton commit Justin Patton will be in the top 100 on the next round of rankings.
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Evan Daniels of Scout in an article today said Heldt along with Creighton commit Justin Patton will be in the top 100 on the next round of rankings.
and that would be when?
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...in the next round of rankings
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and that would be when?
Probably end of summer
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Sorry if I have missed this elsewhere but Scout now has Matt as a 4 star recruit. He's the #15 center in the class and is ranked #56 overall.
Looks like a nice little bump.
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I don't have the energy to cross reference the lists, but I'd be willing to bet that busts happen to many coaches, all the time (Georgia Tech, St. John's, and Maryland seem to come to mind). Especially if you define bust as being outside the theoretical top 100 at the end of their college careers. It just seems like it happens to us all the time because we are only paying attention to Marquette. I would guess that at least 35 top 100 players a year end up finishing their careers with less than top 100 performances.
I would also put Vander, Mbakwe, and Maymon in the top 55 of their respective classes. Burton will probably be. We have no idea about Duane and JJJ (or Luke/Sandy for that matter)
Didn't paint touches or cracked sidewalks do a study on this a few years back? Like how many end up drafted or something?
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So we went from recruiting 4 star studs and JC all-americans with Buzz; to recruiting 3 star Kids from Neenah who were considering Lehigh and Drake?
Haha!
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Haha!
Wojo knows!
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Two years in our strength and conditioning and this kid will be hitting threes consistently from NBA range.
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Two years in our strength and conditioning and this kid will be hitting threes consistently from NBA range.
If he keeps improving at this rate, those threes will be on a floor with an NBA logo.