MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: HutchwasClutch on April 22, 2014, 08:41:47 PM
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Just tweeted news-
Marial Shayok @supermarial03 · 5m
Happy to announce I've committed to the University of Virginia!
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Hard to hate his choice.
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Wojo will need to develop his own Marquette recruits . This was pretty much expected. hopefully he is focusing on Horford and other transfer big men for 2014.
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I woulda traded Curly straight up for Bennett 6 years ago.
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Hard to argue with this choice on many levels. UVA is an outstanding university. It is everything VPI is not.
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Good luck to him. Hope he enjoys his education there.
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He did not make a bad choice. Would have been nice to have here.
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Isn't there supposed to be a 'Tech' after Virginia?
Shayok was connected to Buzz via Jamie McNeilly. What's up with Jamie? Where has he landed?
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Isn't there supposed to be a 'Tech' after Virginia?
Shayok was connected to Buzz via Jamie McNeilly. What's up with Jamie? Where has he landed?
Jamie's at VT. Capacity TBD.
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I woulda traded Curly straight up for Bennett 6 years ago.
Bennett is a good coach, but going into this past season, he had not accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Buzz, who was coming off S16-S16-E8 and a second heralded recruiting class.
In 2012-13, Bennett's fourth season at Virginia, many considered his team a major disappointment, following up his first NCAA appearance there by only making the NIT. Had the same thing happened here in Buzz's fourth year, Scoop woulda gone batpoop.
Obviously, Bennett outcoached a whole lotta folks last season, including Buzzard. But with 5 NCAA tournament wins in 8 years as a coach, and a Sweet 16 loss as a No. 1 seed last season, let's not make him out to be the next Al -- or even Bo -- yet, OK?
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Bennett is a good coach, but going into this past season, he had not accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Buzz, who was coming off S16-S16-E8 and a second heralded recruiting class.
National coach of the year in 2007. That's a pretty nice award. How many of those has Buzz ever won? i think we could put Bennett in the same sentence.
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Jamie's at VT. Capacity TBD.
So much for the Canadian bond. I thought he'd follow Jamie and Buzz, too.
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Bennett is a good coach, but going into this past season, he had not accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Buzz, who was coming off S16-S16-E8 and a second heralded recruiting class.
In 2012-13, Bennett's fourth season at Virginia, many considered his team a major disappointment, following up his first NCAA appearance there by only making the NIT. Had the same thing happened here in Buzz's fourth year, Scoop woulda gone batpoop.
Obviously, Bennett outcoached a whole lotta folks last season, including Buzzard. But with 5 NCAA tournament wins in 8 years as a coach, and a Sweet 16 loss as a No. 1 seed last season, let's not make him out to be the next Al -- or even Bo -- yet, OK?
Tony ain't squirmy. Let's wait until all the dust settles before we corronate Buzzard either.
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Tony ain't squirmy.
And therein lies the difference
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Tony ain't squirmy. Let's wait until all the dust settles before we corronate Buzzard either.
When do you expect that we'll hear/be made to understand/become informed regarding that dust settling thing? I keep reading implications here and elsewhere that there is more to the Buzzard story yet not a soul including the administration is airing that other side of the story. Seems obvious to me that if he wasn't pushed out, the administration certainly held the door open for him on his way out. Why? And just as important, why hasn't "that side of the story" been aired? After all, he provided some great, great basketball at MU and, at face value, seemingly held to MU's beliefs, values, etc...
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Best of luck Super Marial. Would have loved to see you in a Warrior's uniform
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Tony ain't squirmy. Let's wait until all the dust settles before we corronate Buzzard either.
I'm not "corronating" anybody. What in my comment wasn't a fact?
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National coach of the year in 2007. That's a pretty nice award. How many of those has Buzz ever won? i think we could put Bennett in the same sentence.
Tony Bennett's best coaching accomplishment to date: AP Coach of the Year Award (followed by a loss in the second round of the NCAA tournament).
Buzz Williams' best coaching accomplishment to date: Taking Marquette to Elite Eight (following two straight Sweet 16s).
Tom Crean's best coaching accomplishment to date: Taking Marquette to the Final Four.
Again, Bennett has had some success, but the man has made only 4 NCAA tourney appearances in 8 years and has won just 5 NCAA tourney games as a head coach. He has not won a game on the tournament's second weekend.
Compare that to the two former MU coaches we now love to hate.
Let's try to keep things in perspective: If Wojo stays here for 8 years but only makes the tourney 4 times, will we be calling him a great coach or will we be calling for his head?
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Thats actually a good, if not better fit for Shayok. Good luck to him
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Bennett is a good coach, but going into this past season, he had not accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Buzz, who was coming off S16-S16-E8 and a second heralded recruiting class.
In 2012-13, Bennett's fourth season at Virginia, many considered his team a major disappointment, following up his first NCAA appearance there by only making the NIT. Had the same thing happened here in Buzz's fourth year, Scoop woulda gone batpoop.
Obviously, Bennett outcoached a whole lotta folks last season, including Buzzard. But with 5 NCAA tournament wins in 8 years as a coach, and a Sweet 16 loss as a No. 1 seed last season, let's not make him out to be the next Al -- or even Bo -- yet, OK?
Here's one sentence that mentions both Bennett and Buzz in the proper perspective:
Bennett has turned not just one, but two perennial also-rans into NCAA contenders, while Buzz took an NCAA contender and turned it into an also-ran.
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Isn't there supposed to be a 'Tech' after Virginia?
Shayok was connected to Buzz via Jamie McNeilly. What's up with Jamie? Where has he landed?
McNeilly always struck me as a bit of a shady character.
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Here's one sentence that mentions both Bennett and Buzz in the proper perspective:
Bennett has turned not just one, but two perennial also-rans into NCAA contenders, while Buzz took an NCAA contender and turned it into an also-ran.
Fair enough.
Look, I'm not in love with Buzz. I'm just trying to keep Bennett's accomplishments in perspective because there's a lot of love for a guy who has never won a game in the NCAA tournament's second weekend and who couldn't parlay a No. 1 seed into even a regional final.
Again, if Wojo makes only 4 NCAA tournament appearances in 8 years at Marquette, will the consensus here be that he is a great coach?
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I'm not "corronating" anybody. What in my comment wasn't a fact?
Didn't say anything wasn't factual, my point is there are a bunch of people here that are in the just win baby, turn a blind eye to anything else, etc. In my view, that's a big part of the equation. Lots of coaches win and you have to put a close pin on your nose as a result while others not only don't use the close pin but encourage the just win baby. By the way, I'm not putting you either camp as I don't know where you are on that.
So it depends from what POV you come from.
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Best of luck Super Marial. Would have loved to see you in a Warrior's uniform
Woahhhh wait.... I thought "Groin Pull" banned the use of Marial Shayok's nickname of "Super Marial"
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Didn't say anything wasn't factual, my point is there are a bunch of people here that are in the just win baby, turn a blind eye to anything else, etc. In my view, that's a big part of the equation. Lots of coaches win and you have to put a close pin on your nose as a result while others not only don't use the close pin but encourage the just win baby. By the way, I'm not putting you either camp as I don't know where you are on that.
So it depends from what POV you come from.
In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?
Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts. I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.
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In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?
Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts. I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.
Precisely my viewpoint
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Fair enough.
Look, I'm not in love with Buzz. I'm just trying to keep Bennett's accomplishments in perspective because there's a lot of love for a guy who has never won a game in the NCAA tournament's second weekend and who couldn't parlay a No. 1 seed into even a regional final.
Again, if Wojo makes only 4 NCAA tournament appearances in 8 years at Marquette, will the consensus here be that he is a great coach?
But you aren't keeping them in perspective. You say Bennet's biggest coaching accomplishment is winning a 2nd round NCAA Tournament game. You must've forgotten this season. I would say that winning the ACC Regular Season and Tournament Championships would be his 2 biggest accomplishments, followed by a National Coach of the Year award, and then a Sweet 16 appearance. You also use a S16 loss as a 1 seed to show his failure, but the reality is they lost to a team who preseason was ranked 2nd, early season was ranked first, then got a 4 seed because they lost games due to injury and were finally healthy come NCAA Tourney time and very well may have won it all (and were picked to by almost every major expert) had they not run into a starving PG who went on to win it all. Is Witchita State a failure for having lost to a team that finally put all of their incredible talent together just in time to make a run to the NCAA Championship despite going undefeated through their conference tournament?
Also, as Chicos loves to say, the starting point matters. If Wojo was coming into MU with the same situation that Bennett was coming into at UVA then yes, we would be happy with 4 NCAA Tournament appearances.
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Here's one sentence that mentions both Bennett and Buzz in the proper perspective:
Bennett has turned not just one, but two perennial also-rans into NCAA contenders, while Buzz took an NCAA contender and turned it into an also-ran.
Yep.
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In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?
Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts. I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.
Unfortunately, that's a rationale that many people come to. The old adage if "You ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Which comes with the part you stated, define what that means....thus the gray area. That's entirely fair and accurate. To be clear, as I have said countless times here, please don't confuse squirmy with that adage. That's not what I'm saying. There are all kinds of things in life that are legal, above board, etc, but still squirmy or leave a bad taste in the mouth.
However, I don't concur with you that those that "aren't speeding are not winning" because the very nature of that comment is that everyone speeds, because it is considered "minor"...the keeping up with the Jones' argument. As stated in the prior paragraph, there are some folks that don't care how business is conducted as long as they can say its within the rules, etc. Not everyone believes that has to be the case, others disagree. In my view, this is where you see short cuts taken, "exceptions", one-offs (which ironically aren't one-offs), and generally reasons to lower your standards. It becomes a means to an end and takes on a life of its own. The vicious circle argument. "See, we won doing it this way and that's the ONLY way we can continue to win, even if you had to hold your nose". People lose site that there are, in fact, many ways to win and many ways to conduct business and have success.
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x
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But you aren't keeping them in perspective. You say Bennet's biggest coaching accomplishment is winning a 2nd round NCAA Tournament game. You must've forgotten this season. I would say that winning the ACC Regular Season and Tournament Championships would be his 2 biggest accomplishments, followed by a National Coach of the Year award, and then a Sweet 16 appearance. You also use a S16 loss as a 1 seed to show his failure, but the reality is they lost to a team who preseason was ranked 2nd, early season was ranked first, then got a 4 seed because they lost games due to injury and were finally healthy come NCAA Tourney time and very well may have won it all (and were picked to by almost every major expert) had they not run into a starving PG who went on to win it all. Is Witchita State a failure for having lost to a team that finally put all of their incredible talent together just in time to make a run to the NCAA Championship despite going undefeated through their conference tournament?
Also, as Chicos loves to say, the starting point matters. If Wojo was coming into MU with the same situation that Bennett was coming into at UVA then yes, we would be happy with 4 NCAA Tournament appearances.
Buzz won a Big East championship in the final season of what some call the most competitive league ever. Then capped that season by going to the Elite 8, all after going S16-S16 the previous two years.
And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud. Crean took over a crap program and got us to the Final Four; what has Bennett done even in the remote neighborhood of that?
As for the situation in which Wojo is coming into vs. Bennett vs. Buzz vs. Crean vs. anybody else ... sense when are most fans logical enough to make that distinction?
Wojo will have his honeymoon period, just as Crean did. But let's see how folks react if he gets to Year 2 or 3, makes the NCAAs and then misses it again the following season. Hell, let's see how fans react if we start 2-3 next season ... damn the honeymoon, logic and perspective!
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Buzz won a Big East championship in the final season of what some call the most competitive league ever. Then capped that season by going to the Elite 8, all after going S16-S16 the previous two years.
And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud. Crean took over a crap program and got us to the Final Four; what has Bennett done even in the remote neighborhood of that?
As for the situation in which Wojo is coming into vs. Bennett vs. Buzz vs. Crean vs. anybody else ... sense when are most fans logical enough to make that distinction?
Wojo will have his honeymoon period, just as Crean did. But let's see how folks react if he gets to Year 2 or 3, makes the NCAAs and then misses it again the following season. Hell, let's see how fans react if we start 2-3 next season ... damn the honeymoon, logic and perspective!
The expectations will be lower. We aren't picked to win the Big East like last year. Plus we're coming off a poor season in which we made no tournament of any kind which last happened in 2001 I think.
Too much is put on the advancement in the NCAA tournament. Play well in the regular season, in your conference, GET to the NCAA tournament and then see where things go. The crapshoot is too powerful in the NCAA tournament for one to put all those eggs in that basket. I know fans aren't logical and I don't suspect many will get there anytime soon, but they should. What you do over the course of 4 months is a much better barometer or who you are as a team and program than what you do in 2 hours on a given day in March. Stuff happens.
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So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.
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So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.
Well, if it was, it isn't anymore.
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So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.
Winning the Big East championship means you beat out 14 other schools (last year) over the course of several months. Is it better? I would argue it shows what you did for the long haul. Let's ask it a different way, if Davidson knocked off MU in the first round, would MU's conference championship be undone, or weakened, or diluted? What if MU only won one game? Two NCAA games?
I've told you guys over the years that I compartmentalize this stuff, it's very easy to do for me. Win a conference title, play well in the regular season...that is worth something. I then look at post season as another mini-season. We're hanging a banner for a Big East championship, we're not for the Elite 8, even though it is incredibly fun and exciting to go that far in the NCAA tournament. I just don't let one performance (good or bad) cancel out 3 to 4 months of performances. Others can do as they wish.
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And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud.
It's about effects and right now, intentional or not, MU is not a Tourney caliber program. It is also about starting point and Bennett took over two moribund programs and got them into the Tourney while Bert inherited a senior-laden Tournament team. Finally, it is about the journey. I am guessing that Bennett has run a clean program at UVA which is a prestigious university that truly merits the wreath of Institution. He has likely not cut corners and lowered standards in order to win as was happening at MU.
Are the two coaches comparable? I would argue they are hardly of the same cloth.
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Let's ask it a different way, if Davidson knocked off MU in the first round, would MU's conference championship be undone, or weakened, or diluted?
But they didn't. So it's moot.
What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?
But none of that stuff happened.
What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.
And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.
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And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.
But who was the best team last year?
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But they didn't. So it's moot.
What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?
But none of that stuff happened.
What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.
And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.
If MU did lose to Davidson last year, I would have still remembered they won the Big East conference in its final year of it truly being the Big East. Others, seem to want to throw out anything done in the regular season and all validation is based on what they did in the NCAA tournament. To each, their own. You have your way, I have mine.
I tend to value both, but I won't let one destroy the other or put one necessarily too high on a pedestal unless it is magical stuff...Final Four, championship stuff. Again, to each their own.
I'm glad MU went to an Elite 8 last year and it was very fun to watch us win 3 games. I'm equally happy that MU won 23 games prior to the NCAA tournament, including a 14-4 record in the Big East to capture that title.
You can categorize how you wish to view success or failure as you wish....and yes, there are many souls that know what UConn did during the AAC season, including their fan base.
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Unfortunately, that's a rationale that many people come to. The old adage if "You ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Which comes with the part you stated, define what that means....thus the gray area. That's entirely fair and accurate. To be clear, as I have said countless times here, please don't confuse squirmy with that adage. That's not what I'm saying. There are all kinds of things in life that are legal, above board, etc, but still squirmy or leave a bad taste in the mouth.
However, I don't concur with you that those that "aren't speeding are not winning" because the very nature of that comment is that everyone speeds, because it is considered "minor"...the keeping up with the Jones' argument. As stated in the prior paragraph, there are some folks that don't care how business is conducted as long as they can say its within the rules, etc. Not everyone believes that has to be the case, others disagree. In my view, this is where you see short cuts taken, "exceptions", one-offs (which ironically aren't one-offs), and generally reasons to lower your standards. It becomes a means to an end and takes on a life of its own. The vicious circle argument. "See, we won doing it this way and that's the ONLY way we can continue to win, even if you had to hold your nose". People lose site that there are, in fact, many ways to win and many ways to conduct business and have success.
So this obviously begs the question: When we lowered our standards in the D Wade era did you hold your nose and call Tom Crean squirmy? I read the Dodds board in those days - you were an extremely prolific poster there during that period (surprise, surprise) and I don't recall you doing that. I mean, every player MU has had in the Crean/Buzz renaissance has been a qualified student athlete by NCAA standards EXCEPT Dwyane. You must have been horrified but you sure kept it to yourself.
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So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.
Well, if it was, it isn't anymore.
Lol, but not because I in any way disagree. Things change.
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In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?
Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts. I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.
A precious few programs can win without speeding. My guess Is that MU is counting on Wojo's pedigree to make us one of those programs. "We'll see", said the Zen Master.
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But they didn't. So it's moot.
What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?
But none of that stuff happened.
What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.
And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.
UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.
Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.
But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it? I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?
Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.
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On top of non Qualifier Wade --- I think we need to really reconsider how we view Crean.
First, he hired a very "squirmy" assistant in Buzz Williams. Then, he paved the way for Buzz to takeover.
How could TC do such a thing? No regard for the MU brand? Is TC squirmy?
Hopefully Wojo can clean up this huge mess that TC created.
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UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.
Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.
But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it? I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?
Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.
Agree.
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On top of non Qualifier Wade --- I think we need to really reconsider how we view Crean.
First, he hired a very "squirmy" assistant in Buzz Williams. Then, he paved the way for Buzz to takeover.
How could TC do such a thing? No regard for the MU brand? Is TC squirmy?
Hopefully Wojo can clean up this huge mess that TC created.
Crean was fired from MU, remember. He had nothing to do with Buzz getting the HC job.
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Crean was fired from MU, remember. He had nothing to do with Buzz getting the HC job.
Well played
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UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.
Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.
But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it? I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?
Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.
OK, I'm done with hypotheticals. Marquette DID beat Davidson and DID go to the Elite Eight. UConn DID win the national title, which is the definition (in my book and, really, in the only book that counts) of ending the season as the No. 1 team in the nation.
I've been party to this silly discussion in the past and I'm mad at myself for being party to it again.
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OK, I'm done with hypotheticals. Marquette DID beat Davidson and DID go to the Elite Eight. UConn DID win the national title, which is the definition (in my book and, really, in the only book that counts) of ending the season as the No. 1 team in the nation.
I've been party to this silly discussion in the past and I'm mad at myself for being party to it again.
Al McGuire disagrees with you....so do so many others.