MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Bo Ryan's Massage Therapist on October 05, 2013, 12:25:37 PM
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Not good.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2013/10/sandburg_star_malek_harris_sus.html
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Yikes.....Sounds like he has had character issues previous to this. This had to have been on Buzz's radar. Not sure what happens from here, but not good at all
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Well, I guess Buzz won't be oversigning then...
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Not a good development. I wouldn't pull the scholarship yet, but if I was buzz at madness I'd want to have a long sit down. If Harris is planning on making the trip. The troubling part is that it is second year in a row.
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Character revealed?
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Make him wait until spring to sign. Find a new school to play the season, have no issues in the classroom or with the team there first.
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Well, I guess Buzz won't be oversigning then...
Not necessarily. Depends on the severity. This being the second suspension doesn't look good, but if it's for getting caught drinking at a party or smoking weed, this is not the end.
Herm Edwards used to say you can have some character-problem guys, but not too many. 5 was the max for football he'd say, because you'd have to have a guy or two who's job would be to look out for him and keep him on a straight line. No program is a team full of angels.
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Not necessarily. Depends on the severity. This being the second suspension doesn't look good, but if it's for getting caught drinking at a party or smoking weed, this is not the end.
Herm Edwards used to say you can have some character-problem guys, but not too many. 5 was the max for football he'd say, because you'd have to have a guy or two who's job would be to look out for him and keep him on a straight line. No program is a team full of angels.
I'd prefer Buzz and MU not take this approach when recruiting.
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Some folks just know how to f uck up prosperity. Look for Buzz and Larry to reallocate his schollie.
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No program is a team full of angels.
I beg to differ
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCS9E2P1DV626VElUMCkka9dD5ZWjLuxxIo4TerhyhcV61ujVLLA)
(http://partners.allaboutautographsinc.com/AAA-10452.jpg)
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I'd prefer Buzz and MU not take this approach when recruiting.
I'd prefer not making life-changing decisions on people I don't know. No (good) team is full of a bunch of boy scouts.
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I beg to differ
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCS9E2P1DV626VElUMCkka9dD5ZWjLuxxIo4TerhyhcV61ujVLLA)
(http://partners.allaboutautographsinc.com/AAA-10452.jpg)
touché
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I dont think you pull the plug yet. My dad coaches High School basketball for a pretty successful program in Illinois and this happens all the time. It could be something as small as grades or more severe violations but dont expect to find out what happened. Its always hushed up.
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Some folks just know how to f uck up prosperity. Look for Buzz and Larry to reallocate his schollie.
I would agree. Improper behavior must have consequences; and might be the only way for this kid to straighten up.
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Christ guys, cut the kid some slack. Hes a 17 year old KID. People make mistakes. I dont see how it hurts keeping him around. Youre not going to find a more talented player this late in the recruiting game hopefully he can learn from whatever mistake he made.
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I dont think you pull the plug yet. My dad coaches High School basketball for a pretty successful program in Illinois and this happens all the time. It could be something as small as grades or more severe violations but dont expect to find out what happened. Its always hushed up.
Grades are no small matter. In fact they should be a primary factor that matters.
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Grades are no small matter. In fact they should be a primary factor that matters.
I mean, if its grades (I dont think it is its probably a 3rd strike kind of thing) you know MU has tutors for all of these kids and so much help for them.
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I would say give the guy a chance, but there have been recent past problems at MU, so I think his misbehavior combined with the prior misbehaviors at MU results in Harris not getting a scholarship at MU.
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Maybe his school is different but when I was at Racine Horlick, it would have to be something pretty severe to get suspended the whole season. This seems like a long suspension for weed, party or small grade problem
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The story says he has been suspended for the season "according to multiple sources." So nothing official.
Would anyone be surprised if that "season long" suspension ends around thanksgiving? If so, then the school will say the Sun-Times had it wrong and move on.
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Amazing how people can make a judgement without knowing the facts.
Buzz will talk to the kid and his coach and decide if Malek should be given another chance .....
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Christ guys, cut the kid some slack. Hes a 17 year old KID. People make mistakes. I dont see how it hurts keeping him around. Youre not going to find a more talented player this late in the recruiting game hopefully he can learn from whatever mistake he made.
meh..theres a lot of talent out there that dont get suspended for their senior year of HS...
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Maybe his school is different but when I was at Racine Horlick, it would have to be something pretty severe to get suspended the whole season. This seems like a long suspension for weed, party or small grade problem
Partys and even just posession drugs are actually pretty severe for the IHSA and team policy.
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But wait..but wait..This is the guy Buzz wanted.
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But wait..but wait..This is the guy Buzz wanted.
You're a complete f*cking moron
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Make him wait until spring to sign. Find a new school to play the season, have no issues in the classroom or with the team there first.
It'll have to be somewhere outside Illinois. I don't think that IHSA will allow a transfer at this point.
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I beg to differ
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCS9E2P1DV626VElUMCkka9dD5ZWjLuxxIo4TerhyhcV61ujVLLA)
Just as William "Refrigerator" Perry, late of the Chicago Bears used to say; "I was big even when I was little", I'm sure some of the above Angels can say: "I was no angel even when I was on the Angels."
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You're a complete f*cking moron
That's it Genius. Call names when you cannot say anything intelligent. Typical!
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That's it Genius. Call names when you cannot say anything intelligent. Typical!
Maybe not intelligent, but still factual.
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That's it Genius. Call names when you cannot say anything intelligent. Typical!
You are celebrating a 17 year old kid getting in trouble just to say "I told you so." Classless. Again, you are a f*cking moron.
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Any chance he would still come in and redshirt next year? Not sure how much he could contribute after not playing this season.
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Suspended!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-FoHTZJJsU2pwSGVmpVwz4EHKLN_PWmt4Epv7mXMU7R40_4qPDA)
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No way he steps foot on campus, not with the history of buzz's players. It makes sense considering the names Marquette is still in on.
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No one is entitled to a scholarship and no coach wants a troublemaker before he even gets to campus. Right now he's his high school's problem. Don't look to make him yours. Ain't worth the bother. Lotta fish in the ocean.
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No way he steps foot on campus, not with the history of buzz's players. It makes sense considering the names Marquette is still in on.
Who knows. Could be like Ray Lee (MU recruit) and Monterale Clark (MU commit), never hit campus. Guess time will tell, those two examples were serious charges and who knows with this kid.
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You are celebrating a 17 year old kid getting in trouble just to say "I told you so." Classless. Again, you are a f*cking moron.
Where did I say I was celebrating? But then, why lower myself to someone that cannoy get his mind out of the gutter. Time for the ignore button Einstein.
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No one is entitled to a scholarship and no coach wants a troublemaker before he even gets to campus. Right now he's his high school's problem. Don't look to make him yours. Ain't worth the bother. Lotta fish in the ocean.
+1, unless this is so trivial, but to get suspended for a season in Illinois hoops I believe requires a 3rd strike kind of issue (someone can correct me). As important a player as he is to that team, I have to think it's either that situation or a big deal.
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If MU chooses to part ways, I'd guess it won't be as much the offense as it being a repeat offense. Easy to overlook one offense, but harder when it's not the first time.
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First, I have no idea what Malik did, whether he's blown his chances at MU or worse. I do know that Mike Mullins, who runs the Illinois Wolves (Malik's AAU team), is very well respected in a cesspool (AAU hoops) where very few coaches are. I'll be interested in his take.
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Maybe just maybe we should wait to see what he did and how Buzz and company will handle.
People here seem to think that their opinion on this matter for some reason means something.
It doesn't.
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Whatever conclusion is reached, I hope it's in the best interest of Malik and Marquette. I'm not going to condemn a kid until (IF) the details are known. That said, I think we all trust Buzz's judgment and he'll do what's best for the team.
Wonder if Malik will actually be at MM. Could be a pretty awkward situation for all involved. "Hi Ahmed, I'm Malik, I may or not be here in a year due to some poor decisions I made, but either way, I sure hope you are!"
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Trust Buzz and staff to work thingd out.
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
Whoa, if true, be gone.
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
What? Can you repeat that? Can I ask where you got that info?
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Ciao baby
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Paint Touches @PaintTouches 2h
Word on 2014 recruit Harris is nothing illegal warranted suspension. Made a mistake. Not indication of who he is. #mubb
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
Nothin' illegal here. Boys will be boys, hey?
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Nothin' illegal here. Boys will be boys, hey?
Yeah taking the word of a current college student on what a (current, past, or future) student athlete did wrong is always smart.
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
Really? I heard he bombed the Willis Tower. I also heard his grandparents' uncle had a scholarship revoked once. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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Roy Schmidt said it is a repeat offense...so unless he's got a burnt hair fetish...ZFB?
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There is only one fact known to the general public at this time. That is, a suspension has been placed on said high school basketball player. For a penalty of this magnitude, assume the infraction is significantly serious. Can and should the student athlete be given a chance to reclamate? Of course. But, that should be at different institution of higher learning than my alma mater. I don't really care if he's the second comin' of Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, and LeBron all rolled into one.
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There is only one fact known to the general public at this time. That is, a suspension has been placed on said high school basketball player. For a penalty of this magnitude, assume the infraction is significantly serious. Can and should the student athlete be given a chance to reclamate? Of course. But, that should be at different institution of higher learning than my alma mater. I don't really care if he's the second comin' of Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, and LaBron all rolled into one.
Agreed.
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There is only one fact known to the general public at this time. That is, a suspension has been placed on said high school basketball player. For a penalty of this magnitude, assume the infraction is significantly serious. Can and should the student athlete be given a chance to reclamate? Of course. But, that should be at different institution of higher learning than my alma mater. I don't really care if he's the second comin' of Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, and LeBron all rolled into one.
That is a big assumption-as you admit you don't know what it is--to call it significantly serious. You don't know what happened---but lets not wait for the facts lets get him away from your alma mater ASAP!
Maybe we should wait until we understand a little more.
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That is a big assumption-as you admit you don't know what it is--to call it significantly serious. You don't know what happened---but lets not wait for the facts lets get him away from your alma mater ASAP!
Maybe we should wait until we understand a little more.
Top 5 player in the state getting suspended for the season - its serious.
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My buddy next door went to Sandburg his lil bro evidently parties with Harris and I was paraphrasing what he said (granted after a few beers but... Still awkward) But yeah that is what I was told and after five years reading this page I know it's no worse than most of the other "sources" we all post about.
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That is a big assumption-as you admit you don't know what it is--to call it significantly serious. You don't know what happened---but lets not wait for the facts lets get him away from your alma mater ASAP!
Maybe we should wait until we understand a little more.
How many players are suspended for the season each year? Of those players, how many are considered the top 2 or 3 in the state? I'd wager plenty serious, or it's a 3 strikes your out kind of thing where repetition of behavior is an issue. However, you are correct, these are all assumptions, but seem to be be grounded in some common sense logic.
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A lot of people rushing to make assumptions and judgements here. We know nothing, Buzz will figure out what is best for our program.
In Buzz We Trust
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Same article here: http://www.highschoolcubenews.com/news_article/show/296196?referrer_id=681975
I was scouring for any kind of additional information. One reporter from the Southtown Star (Pat @disabato) answered a "What happen(ed)" question this way: "three strikes and you're out."
Of course, there's not a lot of details there.
I hope Malek gets his head right soon, picks up the pieces, and flourishes somewhere else.
Young kid, lots of life in front of him. Whatever Buzz saw in him, I hope it - the goodness - begins to take hold.
Best of luck to Malek.
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Let Buzz make the call. Garantuee you that nobody will know the official reason besides his coaches and his school. Thats just how HS basketball works. Coaches downplay everything and move on, so unless theres an offical police report (there wont cause hes 17) or you are related to the head coach of Sandberg stop making assumptions. Buzz will do what he needs to do.
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Top 5 player in the state getting suspended for the season - its serious.
You would hope that wouldn't matter.
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Let Buzz make the call. Garantuee you that nobody will know the official reason besides his coaches and his school. Thats just how HS basketball works. Coaches downplay everything and move on, so unless theres an offical police report (there wont cause hes 17) or you are related to the head coach of Sandberg stop making assumptions. Buzz will do what he needs to do.
Harris and his teammates will also know. If you think that a bunch of 15-17 year olds aren't going to trickle some information out, well, you may know how HS basketball works, but you don't know how HS kids work.
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There is only one fact known to the general public at this time. That is, a suspension has been placed on said high school basketball player. For a penalty of this magnitude, assume the infraction is significantly serious. Can and should the student athlete be given a chance to reclamate? Of course. But, that should be at different institution of higher learning than my alma mater. I don't really care if he's the second comin' of Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, and LeBron all rolled into one.
You're assuming it is bad ... And that is a reasonable assumption. How do we know if it's some form of a zero tolerance rule? What I would consider a minor infraction blown out of proportion in today's hypersensitive society? (I.e., he made a gun out of his fingers or a throat slash in the hall)? Would that be acceptable?
* What if he was caught cheating like Everett Golson at ND? Is that "acceptable" for MU. That was for ND.
* What if his grades were poor and he flunked a mid-term and the school took action? That is a version of what Todd Mayo did and he is still on the team in good standing. Is that acceptable?
* What he he got into a fight like Vander at 1:30am? Is that acceptable?
* What if he went into a bar and ordered a drink and was busted? Half our team did that. Is that acceptable?
The unwritten assumption here is he was busted (again) for drinking or weed. If that was true, he would have been kicked out of school, not just thrown off the team. He might have also been arrested. No one is saying either if these happened.
Until we know what happened, it is irresponsible to say/demand Buzz not take him. Yes, what he did might warrant that.
Until then we have to trust Buzz.
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...and Larry.
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Set a girls hair on fire and video taped some illegal stuff. The scholarship might've been revoked. Supposedly his older brother had a football scholarship and got it revoked when he was maleks age so this is a family thing.
I heard the same re the hair. Buzz will do the right thing for the program, whatever that may be. What a shame for the kid to jeapordize his career and future like that. There are enough red flags that I do not want him wearing a MU uni.
Kids are going to make mistakes, but this would seem like rolling the dice big time with the university's and program's reputations.
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If a kid gets suspended for his entire senior season, he doesn't belong at any program at Marquette's caliber.
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If a kid gets suspended for his entire senior season, he doesn't belong at any program at Marquette's caliber.
Todd Mayo was suspended for the season at the beginning of last year. Then he managed to reduce it to one-semester. Last I checked he is still a member of our team.
If Malek gets reinstated during winter break, is that ok?
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Todd Mayo was at the beginning of last season. Then he managed to reduce it to one-semester. Last I checked he is still a member of our team.
If Malek gets reinstated during winter break, is that ok?
Nope, and he won't. The two situations aren't even comparable
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Nope, and he won't. The two situations aren't even comparable
So you know what he did an why the school decided to do what they did. Please enlighten.
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Todd Mayo was suspended for the season at the beginning of last year. Then he managed to reduce it to one-semester. Last I checked he is still a member of our team.
If Malek gets reinstated during winter break, is that ok?
Actions that happen before a student enrolls are completely different from actions that happen after the student enrolls. After the student enrolls he is the school's responsibility. If a student messes up then it's up to the school to try to rehabilitate the student. But before they're enrolled it's not for the school to worry about and take on a kid's problems. Once a kid is a part of the family of the team you don't just turn your back on them, but before you're part of the family you have to earn the right to join the family.
Also I don't get why people always say trust the staff in these situations, don't condemn the player yet. It's a message board. The opinions here carry no weight and have no influence on what gets decided for Malek. Just let people express themselves and how they feel the situation should be handled. Buzz will make the decision everyone knows that and nothing said here is going to change that fact or the outcome.
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I'm reserving judgement until it comes out what Malek actually did.
I had multiple suspensions in high school. Thankfully the Marquette message boards didn't know that before I got admitted to the University :p
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The unwritten assumption here is he was busted (again) for drinking or weed. If that was true, he would have been kicked out of school, not just thrown off the team. He might have also been arrested. No one is saying either if these happened.
Until we know what happened, it is irresponsible to say/demand Buzz not take him. Yes, what he did might warrant that.
Until then we have to trust Buzz.
This.
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Also I don't get why people always say trust the staff in these situations, don't condemn the player yet. It's a message board. The opinions here carry no weight and have no influence on what gets decided for Malek. Just let people express themselves and how they feel the situation should be handled. Buzz will make the decision everyone knows that and nothing said here is going to change that fact or the outcome.
Because we don't know what he did, the history before that or what the school really decided (if anything at all). All we have is a Sun-Times story that said "according to multiple sources" he has been suspended for the season. So you know for sure he has no way to atone and reduce this suspension to a few games or a semester? We are all assuming he is gone for the season with no chance of returning because an often inaccurate bankrupt newspaper said if had "multiple sources."
I believe the "Trust Buzz" crowd is saying tell me what happened and until then I will withhold judgement. Do not mistake that for trying to rationalize away problems with Harris because he is a good basketball player. No one has suggested that.
The "kick him out" crowd is basing this on no information and acting irrationally. Sure that might be the proper course to take but based on what we know now, it is not obvious that is what should be done.
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Because we don't know what he did, the history before that or what the school really decided (if anything at all). All we have is a Sun-Times story that said "according to multiple sources" he has been suspended for the season. So you know for sure he has no way to atone and reduce this suspension to a few games or a semester? We are all assuming he is gone for the season with no chance of returning because an often inaccurate bankrupt newspaper said if had "multiple sources."
I believe the "Trust Buzz" crowd is saying tell me what happened and until then I will withhold judgement. Do not mistake that for trying to rationalize away problems with Harris because he is a good basketball player. No one has suggested that.
The "kick him out" crowd is basing this on no information and acting irrationally. Sure that might be the proper course to take but based on what we know now, it is not obvious that is what should be done.
Nail on the head. Some people on here sound like knee-jerk crotchety old men. Maybe wait until some facts come out to say things like "not at my alma mater."
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The "kick him out" crowd is basing this on no information and acting irrationally. Sure that might be the proper course to take but based on what we know now, it is not obvious that is what should be done.
Could it be that some people simply don't want a kid at their school that has been suspended multiple times, including for his entire senior season? That is a known fact, that he has been suspended multiple times and for his entire season....correct? I'm just guessing, but that may be what some of those from the "kick him out" crowd are referencing. Or another way to put it, what the violations are don't matter, the fact he has suspended over and over again and doesn't get the message between the ear lobes is enough for that crowd to say, NO Thanks.
Isn't that an equally logical point of view and is based on facts?
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Nope, and he won't. The two situations aren't even comparable
What was Malek's offense?
He may very well have done something that would cause me to want him nowhere near Marquette. But I'm willing to reserve judgment until we actually know what happened.
A couple more points:
- Paint Touches, which seems to have pretty fair sources at MU, is saying he did nothing illegal. Setting someone's hair on fire is illegal. So, someone's got bad info.
- Roy Schmidt from Illinois Prep Bullseye was asked over Twitter whether Harris still ends up at MU. His reply was "No question about it." So, either he thinks Buzz is exceptionally lenient or the offense wasn't so significant. (side note: Schmidt also thinks Harris will be heading to a prep school).
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Could it be that some people simply don't want a kid at their school that has been suspended multiple times, including for his entire senior season? That is a known fact, that he has been suspended multiple times and for his entire season....correct? I'm just guessing, but that may be what some of those from the "kick him out" crowd are referencing. Or another way to put it, what the violations are don't matter, the fact he has suspended over and over again and doesn't get the message between the ear lobes is enough for that crowd to say, NO Thanks.
Isn't that an equally logical point of view and is based on facts?
Multiple suspensions? Suspended over and over again? I must have missed a whole bunch of his suspensions. I only know of two.
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Buzz is trying to recruit better types of kids right now, lets see Harris suspended, the kid from Madtown suspended, not sure that has happened yet. If he was smoking pot or drinking
is not that big a deal, sure second offense is not good. But MU can have him on a short leash, drug test every 6 weeks, etc. Now if he was caught cheating in school or a sexual
mishap of some type, then I would not take him. Everybody deserves a second change, probably needs some tough love from Buzz. Not sure how tough Buzz can be that it is in the
best interests for the kid. He told Todd Mayo to transfer, his mother said he is going to stay here and get his degree or NBA degree. I am sure the Mayo's are happy that the whole
family is in Milwuakee now.
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Multiple suspensions? Suspended over and over again? I must have missed a whole bunch of his suspensions. I only know of two.
Wasn't it you that pulled the dicitionary out the other day? Multiple = "having more than one part". One report said it was his third strike.
For the record, I'm not one to say he shouldn't be at MU, I'm merely offering an explanation of why some may not. Usually you get suspended it is supposed to be a wake up call, like being on probation.....keep clean, don't be stupid, eyes are on you. You keep doing things to the point you are suspended for an entire season, and you wonder if the message ever gets through. Some may wonder if it is worth taking on someone like that.
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- Paint Touches, which seems to have pretty fair sources at MU, is saying he did nothing illegal. Setting someone's hair on fire is illegal. So, someone's got bad info.
Smoking dope and drinking are illegal (alcohol for minors) in Illinois too. The Illinois kids sign pretty restrictive athlete conduct contracts and the penalties are pretty much zero tolerance. Why? Lawsuits...
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What was Malek's offense?
He may very well have done something that would cause me to want him nowhere near Marquette. But I'm willing to reserve judgment until we actually know what happened.
A couple more points:
- Paint Touches, which seems to have pretty fair sources at MU, is saying he did nothing illegal. Setting someone's hair on fire is illegal. So, someone's got bad info.
- Roy Schmidt from Illinois Prep Bullseye was asked over Twitter whether Harris still ends up at MU. His reply was "No question about it." So, either he thinks Buzz is exceptionally lenient or the offense wasn't so significant. (side note: Schmidt also thinks Harris will be heading to a prep school).
Interesting. Prep school to finish his senior year? Or prep school and reclassify as 2015?
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Setting a girl's hair on fire doesn't necessarily mean that the hair was on her head/that she was wearing the hair
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Wasn't it you that pulled the dicitionary out the other day? Multiple = "having more than one part". One report said it was his third strike.
Every report I read said second suspension. Nobody reported that this was one of "multiple suspensions" or that he had been "suspended over and over again". That's just you being you- you're not fooling anybody.
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For the record, I'm not one to say he shouldn't be at MU, I'm merely offering an explanation of why some may not. Usually you get suspended it is supposed to be a wake up call, like being on probation.....keep clean, don't be stupid, eyes are on you. You keep doing things to the point you are suspended for an entire season, and you wonder if the message ever gets through. Some may wonder if it is worth taking on someone like that.
Those who don't want him at MU are more than capable of explaining their reasons - no need to patronize them.
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Also how do we know he wasn't suspended "indefinitely" and that was translated by the "multiple sources" or the Sun-Times as "the entire season."
I take "indefinitely" to mean until a certain set of conditions are met. That could be the rest of the season, or not. That's why I want to wait until I hear from an official source what the suspends is.
Also, I too think this is his second suspension. His first was last season for the first 11 games, or the first semester. Without knowing anything else, I take that to mean it was a academic issue that was correct in the fall semester of last year (see Todd Mayo). Since we offered him I take it to mean he met the minimum requirements of the NCAA and MU.
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Setting a girl's hair on fire doesn't necessarily mean that the hair was on her head/that she was wearing the hair
If he set a girl's hair on fire (weather she was wearing it or not) he would be kicked off the team, kicked out of school, arrested and the District Attorney would be holding a press conference to answer the question if he would be tried as an adult.
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Setting someone's hair on fire is illegal. So, someone's got bad info.
Sometimes victims choose not to press charges. Happens all the time.
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Sometimes victims choose not to press charges. Happens all the time.
Doesn't matter, he would still be arrested for assault.
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Sometimes victims choose not to press charges. Happens all the time.
Whether or not someone chooses to file charges doesn't make an act any more or less legal. Lots of people choose not to press charges when their spouse beats them. That doesn't make those instances of domestic violence legal.
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Doesn't matter, he would could still be arrested for assault.
Fixed.
That said, cops don't often like to bring charges in minor cases without a cooperating victim.
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Whether or not someone chooses to file charges doesn't make an act any more or less legal. Lots of people choose not to press charges when their spouse beats them. That doesn't make those instances of domestic violence legal.
Prosecutors are not in the business of bringing charges they do not believe they have the evidence to prove. Without sufficient corroborating evidence, you often can't prove a case without the victim's testimony. As such, sometimes illegal activities that prosecutors may believe constitute a felony do not get charged.
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If he did try and set someone's hair on fire and that got him kicked off the basketball team, how could he even stay in school? If this was the offense wouldn't he have also been kicked out of school?
If my daughter went to Sanberg, and was a senior (Harris' grade) and I found out that school administrators thought trying to set a girl's hair on fire only warranted getting kicked off the basketball team, I'd demand a meeting with administrators asking why he is still in school. In fact I would demand they seek a restraining order to keep him away from the school.
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Prosecutors are not in the business of bringing charges they do not believe they have the evidence to prove. Without sufficient corroborating evidence, you often can't prove a case without the victim's testimony. As such, sometimes illegal activities that prosecutors may believe constitute a felony do not get charged.
Yeah, I already said that.
But whether charges are filed or not doesn't define the legality/illegality of the act, which is what your previous post (incorrectly) stated.
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Could it be that some people simply don't want a kid at their school that has been suspended multiple times, including for his entire senior season? That is a known fact, that he has been suspended multiple times and for his entire season....correct? I'm just guessing, but that may be what some of those from the "kick him out" crowd are referencing. Or another way to put it, what the violations are don't matter, the fact he has suspended over and over again and doesn't get the message between the ear lobes is enough for that crowd to say, NO Thanks.
Isn't that an equally logical point of view and is based on facts?
Of course I have to agree with Chicos....
How often does a start high school athlete get suspended for his entire senior season? Not often. Drinking and pot will gets a couple game suspensions, as there has been in my area this football season.
In my opinion, Buzz needs to leave this kid in Orland Park.
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Of course I have to agree with Chicos....
How often does a start high school athlete get suspended for his entire senior season? Not often. Drinking and pot will gets a couple game suspensions, as there has been in my area this football season.
In my opinion, Buzz needs to leave this kid in Orland Park.
Dude I can smell your nursing home stench through my phone screen. Pretty sure we're around the same age but you sound like a septuagenarian in this thread. Not a good look.
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Every report I read said second suspension. Nobody reported that this was one of "multiple suspensions" or that he had been "suspended over and over again". That's just you being you- you're not fooling anybody.
Two suspensions would be multiple suspensions....correct?
And yes, one report said third strike. Perhaps you didn't read it.
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Yeah, I already said that.
But whether charges are filed or not doesn't define the legality/illegality of the act, which is what your previous post (incorrectly) stated.
You completely misconstrued what I wrote somehow. The point, and what my post said, is that illegal acts are often not charged without a cooperating victim. I think we are saying the same thing here.
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Dude I can smell your nursing home stench through my phone screen. Pretty sure we're around the same age but you sound like a septuagenarian in this thread. Not a good look.
"I don't agree with you so I will start to call you names"
Also, not a good look
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Those who don't want him at MU are more than capable of explaining their reasons - no need to patronize them.
I don't believe there was any form of patronizing, just offering an explanation. No different than you and others offering explanations of whether more than one suspension is now, somehow, not multiple, or opining about what exactly he was suspended for. It's a message board. I get the arguments on both sides, and merely offered what one, very plausible and logical argument could be....multiple suspensions, one so bad he is suspended for his senior season could (is) a red flag to some people. For others, it is not. For others, still, it isn't because he is a MU commit but if he was a commit somewhere else (UW, for example), then they would be piling on how the school would even consider taking a kid. It's all conjecture and the spin and viewpoints change based on who said it, who did it, what school they will attend, etc.
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"I don't agree with you so I will start to call you names"
Also, not a good look
"I hope a 17 year old I've never met is not allowed to attend my alma mater based on incomplete information." Ludicrous.
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Maybe just wrong place at the wrong time. Guilt by association, hanging with the wrong kids, who knows. I don't think anyone does. Could be overzealous administrators with an axe to grind, who knows. It will sort itself out. I'd be more worried about the prep school part because way too often a kid that goes to a prep school doesn't end up going to where he committed to originally.
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I don't believe there was any form of patronizing, just offering an explanation. No different than you and others offering explanations of whether more than one suspension is now, somehow, not multiple, or opining about what exactly he was suspended for. It's a message board. I get the arguments on both sides, and merely offered what one, very plausible and logical argument could be....multiple suspensions, one so bad he is suspended for his senior season could (is) a red flag to some people. For others, it is not. For others, still, it isn't because he is a MU commit but if he was a commit somewhere else (UW, for example), then they would be piling on how the school would even consider taking a kid. It's all conjecture and the spin and viewpoints change based on who said it, who did it, what school they will attend, etc.
The thing is, what little we know doesn't support the "he got suspended so it must be darn tootin' serious" argument.
It seems apparent Roy Schmidt from Bullseye knows what happened, and from little he's been able to reveal, we know this:
1. It wasn't the nature of the offense in particular, but that Harris was a repeat offender. This could be something as simple as missing class/skipping practice - neither particularly good things, but not dealbreakers either, IMO.
2. Whatever he did isn't so serious that Roy thinks it jeopardizes Harris' scholarship. Now, perhaps Roy doesn't have a very high opinion of Buzz and the kind of kid he's willing to take at MU. Or maybe it's just not a very serious offense but Sandburg's got a coach who thinks he needs to set a strong example/precedent.
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Dude I can smell your nursing home stench through my phone screen. Pretty sure we're around the same age but you sound like a septuagenarian in this thread. Not a good look.
PTM = Chico's?
Man, people can become vicious on these boards.
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"I hope a 17 year old I've never met is not allowed to attend my alma mater based on incomplete information." Ludicrous.
Much better than your last statement.
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The thing is, what little we know doesn't support the "he got suspended so it must be darn tootin' serious" argument.
It seems apparent Roy Schmidt from Bullseye knows what happened, and from little he's been able to reveal, we know this:
1. It wasn't the nature of the offense in particular, but that Harris was a repeat offender. This could be something as simple as missing class/skipping practice - neither particularly good things, but not dealbreakers either, IMO.
2. Whatever he did isn't so serious that Roy thinks it jeopardizes Harris' scholarship. Now, perhaps Roy doesn't have a very high opinion of Buzz and the kind of kid he's willing to take at MU. Or maybe it's just not a very serious offense but Sandburg's got a coach who thinks he needs to set a strong example/precedent.
Yup, all possible. Stated that before your post. Who knows. I can see both sides of the argument.
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Marquette's caliber.
.223, .311, or .50?
Personally, our teams favored the M4A1 SOPMOD Block II which has introduced more Tangos to Allah than any other system in the AOR. Gawd Damm but America knows how to engineer some incredible machinery.
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Steve Newhouse of We Are DePaul is saying the kid is suspended for smoking pot.
Does that change anybody's opinion?
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Because we don't know what he did, the history before that or what the school really decided (if anything at all). All we have is a Sun-Times story that said "according to multiple sources" he has been suspended for the season. So you know for sure he has no way to atone and reduce this suspension to a few games or a semester? We are all assuming he is gone for the season with no chance of returning because an often inaccurate bankrupt newspaper said if had "multiple sources."
I believe the "Trust Buzz" crowd is saying tell me what happened and until then I will withhold judgement. Do not mistake that for trying to rationalize away problems with Harris because he is a good basketball player. No one has suggested that.
The "kick him out" crowd is basing this on no information and acting irrationally. Sure that might be the proper course to take but based on what we know now, it is not obvious that is what should be done.
In my mind the Kick'em out crowd is saying. Assuming he did something bad, I don't want him.
The Trust Buzz crowd is basically saying I hope I don't have to give an opinion on whether I would want to actually do anything if he actually did something and I'm hoping this all goes away and I don't have to say what I would do.
Basically the Trust Buzz crowd needs to read any post from the Kick'em out crowd with "If this is true and he really did something bad then ....." and fill in their post after that. No one is advocating he have his scholarship revoked with out getting confirmation of the facts. It's just easier to not say if this turns out to be true every single time. If it turns out to be nothing and he's playing 2 games into the season then of course no one wants to revoke his scholarship. The whole discussion is founded on the hypothetical that he did something seriously wrong. The Trust Buzz crowd just doesn't want to engage in meaningful discussion of the issue of bring a player with baggage into a program.
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Steve Newhouse of We Are DePaul is saying the kid is suspended for smoking pot.
Does that change anybody's opinion?
If that was the rule when I was at Marquette, half of McCormick would have been booted out. In fact, I won't name names, but there were a number of Al's players who were regularly getting the best weed on campus. Heck, half of McCormick used to want to walk by their room to get high on the fumes.
Sounds to me like there may be some local school board politics involved as well as some really obnoxious tinhorn dictatorial high school coach.
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In my mind the Kick'em out crowd is saying. Assuming he did something bad, I don't want him.
The Trust Buzz crowd is basically saying I hope I don't have to give an opinion on whether I would want to actually do anything if he actually did something and I'm hoping this all goes away and I don't have to say what I would do.
Basically the Trust Buzz crowd needs to read any post from the Kick'em out crowd with "If this is true and he really did something bad then ....." and fill in their post after that. No one is advocating he have his scholarship revoked with out getting confirmation of the facts.
Actually, several people are saying just that.
And, while I'm not in the "Trust Buzz" crowd either, I think your armchair psychology on them is wrong.
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Steve Newhouse of We Are DePaul is saying the kid is suspended for smoking pot.
Does that change anybody's opinion?
Send him to a school in Colorado or Washington for the year, problem solved. Though he's probably used up his strike so he can't get caught at MU and leave the team to "focus on academics" for a few months.
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Steve Newhouse of We Are DePaul is saying the kid is suspended for smoking pot.
Does that change anybody's opinion?
That was last year.
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Two suspensions would be multiple suspensions....correct?
And yes, one report said third strike. Perhaps you didn't read it.
This was his second suspension. A "strike" (if that ONE report is based on fact) doesn't mean a suspension. Referring to two suspensions as "multiple suspensions" or being "suspended over and over again" is over the top. It massages the facts and adds a level of negativity to what is known. You've been doing it for so long (April 8, 2008) it's automatic, part of your "schtick".
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Never stop recruiting.
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If it's pot, and this is his second or third time getting busted, move along.
Spare yourselves the outrage when if* gets busted while enrolled.
*Jerel and Mo never got busted, so maybe he doesn't.? ;D
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If it's pot, and this is his second or third time getting busted, move along.
Spare yourselves the outrage when if* gets busted while enrolled.
*Jerel and Mo never got busted, so maybe he doesn't.? ;D
If it IS Mary Jane, does it impact his eligibility? Will he be able to transfer to another school and play?
I'm thinking that he may have to enroll into a Prep school.
Buzz "stashes" him there for safe keeping while he cleans up and gets straight.
Then back to MU: one year older and more importantly, one year wiser.
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If this kid was committed to any other program, there would be a bunch of comments about how lenient the program is. There would plenty of "oh that's just par for the course" type comments.
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That was last year.
Maybe that's why it's being described as a repeat offense.
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Steve Newhouse of We Are DePaul is saying the kid is suspended for smoking pot.
Does that change anybody's opinion?
Are we to conclude that he did not he didn't set some girl's hair in fire but rather her weed on fire?
Big difference
Added
Would not a multiple weed offense also lead to a suspension from school? Or, the punishment for getting caught smoking weed multiple times is getting kicked out of extracurricular actives, not from school? So, a debate team kid couldn't put the bong down would they just kick him off the debate team?
Seems to me he would have also been suspended from school and no one is saying that is the case.
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Are we to conclude that he did not he didn't set some girl's hair in fire but rather her weed on fire?
Big difference
No, you should not conclude that.
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Are we to conclude that he did not he didn't set some girl's hair in fire but rather her weed on fire?
Big difference
Added
Would not a multiple weed offense also lead to a suspension from school? Or, the punishment for getting caught smoking weed multiple times is getting kicked out of extracurricular actives, not from school? So, a debate team kid couldn't put the bong down would they just kick him off the debate team?
Seems to me he would have also been suspended from school and no one is saying that is the case.
Weed is close to weave.
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Are we to conclude that he did not he didn't set some girl's hair in fire but rather her weed on fire?
Big difference
Maybe was filming a party at his house. He came into a room with people were smoking weed (filming illegal stuff). He was angry and slapped a lit pipe out of a guys hand, the embers flew into the girls hair and started it on fire (lit a girls hair on fire).
That way everyone can be telling the truth.
Seriously though, what does it matter. Buzz knows the kid and the family and will make an informed decision about what is best for the program.
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The Trust Buzz crowd is basically saying I hope I don't have to give an opinion on whether I would want to actually do anything if he actually did something and I'm hoping this all goes away and I don't have to say what I would do.
I'm in the "In Buzz We Trust" crowd, and i don't think this at all. If I become privy to exactly what Harris was suspended for, I would be happy to offer my opinion on whether or not that Malek should get the opportunity to play for us. Until then, I refuse to condemn a 17 year old kid for an unknown offense.
If you want my opinion on whether or not he should come it depends on the offense:
Weed/alcohol: give him another chance
set a girl's hair on fire (purposefully): no chance
set a girl's hair on fire (on accident): give him another chance
any sort of violent crime: no chance
academics: depends on the severity
Given that I have 0 idea on what Malek did, and it is likely that I will never know, I resort to trusting that Buzz will make the right call for our program.
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You're assuming it is bad ... And that is a reasonable assumption. How do we know if it's some form of a zero tolerance rule? What I would consider a minor infraction blown out of proportion in today's hypersensitive society? (I.e., he made a gun out of his fingers or a throat slash in the hall)? Would that be acceptable?
* What if he was caught cheating like Everett Golson at ND? Is that "acceptable" for MU. That was for ND.
* What if his grades were poor and he flunked a mid-term and the school took action? That is a version of what Todd Mayo did and he is still on the team in good standing. Is that acceptable?
* What he he got into a fight like Vander at 1:30am? Is that acceptable?
* What if he went into a bar and ordered a drink and was busted? Half our team did that. Is that acceptable?
The unwritten assumption here is he was busted (again) for drinking or weed. If that was true, he would have been kicked out of school, not just thrown off the team. He might have also been arrested. No one is saying either if these happened.
Until we know what happened, it is irresponsible to say/demand Buzz not take him. Yes, what he did might warrant that.
Until then we have to trust Buzz.
Your examples and others who have posted similar scenarios all involve athlethes who have matriculated. At that point, a different punishment may be reasonable. However, if the student athlete has demonstrated devious behavior prior to becoming a member of your team, you may just want to walk any from a perceived trouble maker while it is relatively easy to do so. Again, Harris has merely verbally committed. No letter of intent has been signed by either party.
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If that was the rule when I was at Marquette, half of McCormick would have been booted out. In fact, I won't name names, but there were a number of Al's players who were regularly getting the best weed on campus. Heck, half of McCormick used to want to walk by their room to get high on the fumes.
Sounds to me like there may be some local school board politics involved as well as some really obnoxious tinhorn dictatorial high school coach.
Not sure that justifies it. Rumors of some players getting paid back in the day, etc....does that mean it should keep going on? Much more relaxed rules of "she didn't really mean no" back then, so it is ok now? Just throwing it out there, because someone did it in the past or a blind eye was turned, does that make it ok now? For now, it's still a criminal offense, whether we agree or not on if it should be, it is today.
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I'm in the "In Buzz We Trust" crowd, and i don't think this at all. If I become privy to exactly what Harris was suspended for, I would be happy to offer my opinion on whether or not that Malek should get the opportunity to play for us. Until then, I refuse to condemn a 17 year old kid for an unknown offense.
If you want my opinion on whether or not he should come it depends on the offense:
Weed/alcohol: give him another chance
set a girl's hair on fire (purposefully): no chance
set a girl's hair on fire (on accident): give him another chance
any sort of violent crime: no chance
academics: depends on the severity
Given that I have 0 idea on what Malek did, and it is likely that I will never know, I resort to trusting that Buzz will make the right call for our program.
I agree with every one of your assessments.
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The idea of protecting a kid's privacy just ends up hurting the kid. It leads to speculation that often is worse than the actual violation. Without being able to disclose what the offense is MU gets a black eye, if they keep the kid. That was the problem I had with the players accused of rape allocation being kept quiet. Even the innocent players on the team looked bad. Given that we might never know what the actual violation was, I think MU politically should let him go. Now, if Harris wants to disclose what he did, I might make a different judgement. However, I do not see that happening so in my opinion he has to be gone.
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The idea of protecting a kid's privacy just ends up hurting the kid. It leads to speculation that often is worse than the actual violation. Without being able to disclose what the offense is MU gets a black eye, if they keep the kid. That was the problem I had with the players accused of rape allocation being kept quiet. Even the innocent players on the team looked bad. Given that we might never know what the actual violation was, I think MU politically should let him go. Now, if Harris wants to disclose what he did, I might make a different judgement. However, I do not see that happening so in my opinion he has to be gone.
So, whether or not Harris belongs at MU is dependent upon whether YOU know his offense?
The people who will make the actual decision about whether Harris comes to MU, i.e. Buzz and the administration, will know what his offense was. They probably already know. And they'll make the decision based on that knowledge.
On a side note, Harris is supposed to be taking his "official" to Marquette this upcoming weekend. Will be interesting, and telling, to see if he makes it.
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In my mind the Kick'em out crowd is saying. Assuming he did something bad, I don't want him.
The Trust Buzz crowd is basically saying I hope I don't have to give an opinion on whether I would want to actually do anything if he actually did something and I'm hoping this all goes away and I don't have to say what I would do.
Basically the Trust Buzz crowd needs to read any post from the Kick'em out crowd with "If this is true and he really did something bad then ....." and fill in their post after that. No one is advocating he have his scholarship revoked with out getting confirmation of the facts. It's just easier to not say if this turns out to be true every single time. If it turns out to be nothing and he's playing 2 games into the season then of course no one wants to revoke his scholarship. The whole discussion is founded on the hypothetical that he did something seriously wrong. The Trust Buzz crowd just doesn't want to engage in meaningful discussion of the issue of bring a player with baggage into a program.
Hoya, Lenny might be upset that you are speaking on behalf of other folks when they are capable of speaking for themselves. So patronizing.
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I agree with every one of your assessments.
I'm curious for you and TAMU, if it is pot again....would you have zero tolerance of a threepeat at MU? Or would he get a 4 peat, 5 peat, etc? I'm just curious when the second chances run out for folks. By the way, I'm not against second chances, but I am definitely someone that believes 2nd chances are just that, 2nd chances.
Curious where you guys are on it?
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This was his second suspension. A "strike" (if that ONE report is based on fact) doesn't mean a suspension. Referring to two suspensions as "multiple suspensions" or being "suspended over and over again" is over the top. It massages the facts and adds a level of negativity to what is known. You've been doing it for so long (April 8, 2008) it's automatic, part of your "schtick".
LOL....referring to two suspensions as multiple suspensions is over the top? Oh my God, I'm in the bizarro world. Definition number 1, not exactly some obscure one.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/multiple
Are you sure you didn't go to Chicago State or UW Waukesha?
More than one is multiple. Weird, if you look up articles of "multiple Super Bowl winning QBs" they list guys that won two. If you look up articles of actors that won multiple Oscars, they list actors with only two. But no, you have the new definition and MULTIPLE is no longer more than one, it apparently MORE THAN TWO....Lenny's Dictionary, get it at Lenny's house only now on sale for $0.99.
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I'm curious for you and TAMU, if it is pot again....would you have zero tolerance of a threepeat at MU? Or would he get a 4 peat, 5 peat, etc? I'm just curious when the second chances run out for folks. By the way, I'm not against second chances, but I am definitely someone that believes 2nd chances are just that, 2nd chances.
Curious where you guys are on it?
You didn't specifically ask me, but I think the obvious answer is to treat him as any other Marquette student in that regard. Certainly MU doesn't look into every incoming students' background to learn if they have a prior drug or alcohol offense (thank goodness, in my case) and hold those as prior strikes.
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You didn't specifically ask me, but I think the obvious answer is to treat him as any other Marquette student in that regard. Certainly MU doesn't look into every incoming students' background to learn if they have a prior drug or alcohol offense (thank goodness, in my case) and hold those as prior strikes.
Marquette does look closer at those students getting a full boat though, including St. Ignatius.
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You didn't specifically ask me, but I think the obvious answer is to treat him as any other Marquette student in that regard. Certainly MU doesn't look into every incoming students' background to learn if they have a prior drug or alcohol offense (thank goodness, in my case) and hold those as prior strikes.
As such, Lenny will be quite upset that you responded. :D
Knowing that there has been past issues and a suspension which the school does know about, does that change things? I think that's where it does change things because most students they won't know this information, but in this case they do. I'm just more curious how many second chances does someone get. It's a general question.
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Once again, Harris is not a Marquette student nor does he have to be. Big difference.
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I'm curious for you and TAMU, if it is pot again....would you have zero tolerance of a threepeat at MU? Or would he get a 4 peat, 5 peat, etc? I'm just curious when the second chances run out for folks. By the way, I'm not against second chances, but I am definitely someone that believes 2nd chances are just that, 2nd chances.
Curious where you guys are on it?
Similar to Pakuni, treat them as just any other student when he is at MU.
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Similar to Pakuni, treat them as just any other student when he is at MU.
http://www.marquette.edu/publicsafety/SRG-Alcohol-Policy.shtml
Pretty vague, could lead to suspension, expulsion, etc..... (depends on how many PPG you average to determine punishment, if any ;D )
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A lot of mental masturbation here. We'll find out how our roster shakes out in due time.
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http://www.marquette.edu/publicsafety/SRG-Alcohol-Policy.shtml
Pretty vague, could lead to suspension, expulsion, etc..... (depends on how many PPG you average to determine punishment, if any ;D )
He's not here yet so wait till he is here before putting him under MU rules, he is being punished for his current violation, whatever it is.
Also, you act as if basketball players are treated differently than everyone else. What about if his parents were big donors to the engineering department, or were recognized prominently in promotional materials because of research they did.
Everything is a case by case basis in life.
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As such, Lenny will be quite upset that you responded. :D
Knowing that there has been past issues and a suspension which the school does know about, does that change things? I think that's where it does change things because most students they won't know this information, but in this case they do. I'm just more curious how many second chances does someone get. It's a general question.
I guess I'm unsure of how you define "second chances." Should a screw up one makes in high school follow around a person for life?
In all but extreme circumstances, we give people a reset when they reach adulthood. It's why juvenile records are sealed, grade school records aren't public, etc. Heck, even for adults we allow records to be expunged after a certain point, depending on the offense.
To answer your question, it depends. If Harris committed a serious offense, especially one involving violence or a weapon, he gets zero second chances. If he commits a lesser offense like getting into a fight - hardly unheard of among athletes, even at MU - he gets a second chance. If he did some underage drinking, smoked some weed in high school or cheated on a test, I'm willing to hit the reset button when a kid arrives on campus. Because you can bet he'd be far from alone among his peers in the freshman class when it comes to drinking, smoking and cheating.
I know some want to have a black-and-white, no room for discretion, outlook on things - you know, like five-year rules for evaluating coaches ;) - but I think the wiser course is to deal with these things on a case-by-case basis.
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LOL....referring to two suspensions as multiple suspensions is over the top? Oh my God, I'm in the bizarro world. Definition number 1, not exactly some obscure one.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/multiple
Are you sure you didn't go to Chicago State or UW Waukesha?
More than one is multiple. Weird, if you look up articles of "multiple Super Bowl winning QBs" they list guys that won two. If you look up articles of actors that won multiple Oscars, they list actors with only two. But no, you have the new definition and MULTIPLE is no longer more than one, it apparently MORE THAN TWO....Lenny's Dictionary, get it at Lenny's house only now on sale for $0.99.
Can I get multiple Lenny's Dictionaries at once? How many would I need to buy for it to be considered multiple? Thanks for the help.
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Again, not knowing what the offense was, I don't think the school will treat the situation like they would for just anybody. As has been pointed out, he is in line for a full boat. In addition, these guys are in the spotlight and subjected to
scrutiny that would not accrue to an average student.
By the way, Jajuannaman, what's the problem with septuagenarians?
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I use to go to school in the same conference as Sandburg, his high school. We had a Code of Conduct that if you did not follow would lead to suspensions. I assume this is a violation of that. Usually code violations are underage drinking or getting into a fight. Also, include would be drug use, cheating, and any criminal charges though much less likely. Last year, he was suspended 11 games, a third of the season for the first violation. So, for the next one it increases to full seasons. I could see him going to a prep school now for a year, since it will be hard to go straight from not playing to D1 basketball.
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Whatever Buzz decides to do, it's fine by me.
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LOL....referring to two suspensions as multiple suspensions is over the top? Oh my God, I'm in the bizarro world. Definition number 1, not exactly some obscure one.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/multiple
Are you sure you didn't go to Chicago State or UW Waukesha?
More than one is multiple. Weird, if you look up articles of "multiple Super Bowl winning QBs" they list guys that won two. If you look up articles of actors that won multiple Oscars, they list actors with only two. But no, you have the new definition and MULTIPLE is no longer more than one, it apparently MORE THAN TWO....Lenny's Dictionary, get it at Lenny's house only now on sale for $0.99.
You said he's been suspended "over and over again". If that means twice in your world then you live in a very dim witted one.
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Paint Touches @PaintTouches 2h
Word on 2014 recruit Harris is nothing illegal warranted suspension. Made a mistake. Not indication of who he is. #mubb
If we can trust PT, what Malek did was not illegal.
That rules out assault (a fight or setting someone's hair on fire), smoking pot, underage drinking, reckless driving etc.
So it must have been a school rule that did not violate the law. And a non-illegal school rule that would not get him kicked out of school (because no one is saying he was kicked out). This rules out plagualism and cheating on a test as they would normally get you kicked out of school.
What could this be? Thoughts?
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This rules out plagualism and cheating on a test as they would normally get you kicked out of school.
Good lord, what kind of high school did you go to?
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http://sandburg.d230.org/about/code-of-conduct/
Webpage with a link to the PDF describing their code of conduct. "Nothing Illegal" but something that can get you banned for the season. Looking through their lists, there are some things that easily fall into that category. Going to the end and seeing what will end your athletic career is also enlightening. When I look at those lists and contemplate my high school years..........oy. Could easily be parallel to what happened to MU players being cited last year for being in a bar and not drinking.
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If we can trust PT, what Malek did was not illegal.
That rules out assault (a fight or setting someone's hair on fire), smoking pot, underage drinking, reckless driving etc.
So it must have been a school rule that did not violate the law. And a non-illegal school rule that would not get him kicked out of school (because no one is saying he was kicked out). This rules out plagualism and cheating on a test as they would normally get you kicked out of school.
What could this be? Thoughts?
Cheating on a test gets you kicked out of school?
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Cheating on a test gets you kicked out of school?
Maybe he went to a military school.
He will not lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do.
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He's not here yet so wait till he is here before putting him under MU rules, he is being punished for his current violation, whatever it is.
Also, you act as if basketball players are treated differently than everyone else. What about if his parents were big donors to the engineering department, or were recognized prominently in promotional materials because of research they did.
Everything is a case by case basis in life.
I was being sarcastic, believe me I'm well aware in society that certain people get do overs and 2nd, 3rd, 8th chances while others have zero tolerance. Well aware of it. No different at MU than anywhere else.
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Cheating on a test gets you kicked out of school?
Not for the first offense .. repeated yes. Plagiarism ... one and done. Know a kid that was accepted to Dayton, copied and pasted Wikipedia for a paper two months before graduation, was busted and thrown out of school, could not go to Dayton. Now at a Prep school reapplying with that on his record. (Our school warns the kids about this and makes them sign a code of conduct.)
It sucks but the moral is do not plagiarize.
Maybe Sanberg and other give a free pass or two for kids copying and pasting Wiki as a term paper. Who knows.
First offense will get you an automatic F in the class and that could have dropped his GPA below the minimum to participate in Basketball.
Again guessing here.
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You said he's been suspended "over and over again". If that means twice in your world then you live in a very dim witted one.
And what did you say...."Referring to two suspensions as "multiple suspensions" or being "suspended over and over again" is over the top."
It's easy Lenny, just admit you are wrong...it will be a first for everyone to witness. Two suspensions, is absolutely multiple suspensions and in NO WAY over the top. In fact, it's just flat out dead accurate. You want to quibble with the "over and over again" part, that's fine....but to say two suspensions aren't multiple in any definition on planet earth is just laughable.
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Good lord, what kind of high school did you go to?
My high school was that way. Zero tolerance...plagiarism or cheating and you were GONE! You got to appeal it, but if you lost the appeal...GONE
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I'm curious for you and TAMU, if it is pot again....would you have zero tolerance of a threepeat at MU? Or would he get a 4 peat, 5 peat, etc? I'm just curious when the second chances run out for folks. By the way, I'm not against second chances, but I am definitely someone that believes 2nd chances are just that, 2nd chances.
Curious where you guys are on it?
I think he got a second chance when he got a scholarship offer to MU after being suspended for part of his junior year. Besides that Diamond Taylor got a second chance when UW dropped him for burglarising dorms. MU not keeping him does not stop him from getting a third chance. The debate is whether it should be at MU. If not MU it could be a prep school, junior college or some other division one school. My opinion might also be different, if MU and Buzz had not gone through the rape cover up embarrassment. The chances of Harris losing his scholarship is greatly increased by the embarrassment of past discretion at MU by other Buzz players.
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My high school was that way. Zero tolerance...plagiarism or cheating and you were GONE! You got to appeal it, but if you lost the appeal...GONE
Those days are long gone. I know of a case where a student failed a multiple choice exam (scantron), after they were returned the student came back to the instructor saying the machine must have graded their's improperly as they were almost all correct.
Instructor tells them to bring exam to their office. Sure enough they were almost all correct. Only 1 problem.
The instructor made a photocopy of all the scantrons turned in. This students had been erased very well and corrected to give them a B+. Instructor presents student with the photocopy with different answers.
Student just shrugs shoulders and says, what are you going to do about it...if you take it to the academic conduct council my families attorneys will fight it and win. Student was right.
Moral of the story, it is a different world than when we were in school.
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Those days are long gone. I know of a case where a student failed a multiple choice exam (scantron), after they were returned the student came back to the instructor saying the machine must have graded their's improperly as they were almost all correct.
Instructor tells them to bring exam to their office. Sure enough they were almost all correct. Only 1 problem.
The instructor made a photocopy of all the scantrons turned in. This students had been erased very well and corrected to give them a B+. Instructor presents student with the photocopy with different answers.
Student just shrugs shoulders and says, what are you going to do about it...if you take it to the academic conduct council my families attorneys will fight it and win. Student was right.
Moral of the story, it is a different world than when we were in school.
Not long gone, at least not at all schools. Harvard Westlake High went through it here a few years ago.
http://laist.com/2008/02/27/harvardwestlake.php
There was the New York incident last year with 71 students http://nypost.com/2013/09/29/after-cheating-scandal-is-stuyvesant-still-the-best-high-school/
http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/on-education/2008/07/11/college-board-cancels-one-schools-ap-scores-after-cheating-scandal
I get your point, but some would argue that is not a good thing. There should be strict consequences for these types of actions and if you let them go or do a wrist slap, they happen again and again.
I have zero tolerance for that. Of course, I think corporal punishment should be brought back as well. What goes on in many schools today is a joke compared to 50 years ago....no discipline at all. (before someone attacks me on that statement, I rely heavily on Mother Chico for that...a teacher of over 40+ years, including California teacher of the year and Denver Arch Diocese teacher of the year....she has seen a lot, been through a lot and the discipline of kids today in the classroom has changed dramatically for the worse...causes some environments where kids simply can't learn because of the disruptions from others).
Get out those rulers and Sr. Mary Louise should be able to swat your hand in front of everyone. ;D
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Those days are long gone. I know of a case where a student failed a multiple choice exam (scantron), after they were returned the student came back to the instructor saying the machine must have graded their's improperly as they were almost all correct.
Instructor tells them to bring exam to their office. Sure enough they were almost all correct. Only 1 problem.
The instructor made a photocopy of all the scantrons turned in. This students had been erased very well and corrected to give them a B+. Instructor presents student with the photocopy with different answers.
Student just shrugs shoulders and says, what are you going to do about it...if you take it to the academic conduct council my families attorneys will fight it and win. Student was right.
Moral of the story, it is a different world than when we were in school.
It is all fine and well to kick people out of private schools. However, let's be real here...if you expel kids from public school for cheating, what are they going to do? Where are they going to go?
It's easy for you and Chicos to sit on your high horse when you don't have to answer these questions.
Don't get me wrong. Cheating should be dealt with severely. But expelling a hid from a public school doesn't serve society or the kid any good.
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It is all fine and well to kick people out of private schools. However, let's be real here...if you expel kids from public school for cheating, what are they going to do? Where are they going to go?
It's easy for you and Chicos to sit on your high horse when you don't have to answer these questions.
Don't get me wrong. Cheating should be dealt with severely. But expelling a hid from a public school doesn't serve society or the kid any good.
First, this was at a private school.
Second, I'm on the record multiple times in this thread saying that students should be given a second chance.
The story was just to convey that times have changed since Chicos, myself and you have attended school. I will add that I do agree with chicos that it is not necessarily for the better.
Here, we have a case where the student violated rules and is being punished. Too often that is not the case and in addition, the parents defend the actions of their kids instead of providing punishment.
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It is all fine and well to kick people out of private schools. However, let's be real here...if you expel kids from public school for cheating, what are they going to do? Where are they going to go?
It's easy for you and Chicos to sit on your high horse when you don't have to answer these questions.
Don't get me wrong. Cheating should be dealt with severely. But expelling a hid from a public school doesn't serve society or the kid any good.
Neither does a slap on the hand and a 3 day "vacation" from school while they are suspended. I've seen where kids get expelled and another school takes them on. The state still has an obligation to educate the kid. Yeah, it's a tough life lesson, but that's the point...it's a lesson. Imagine how quickly it gets around that if you are caught cheating you are gone....what happens to the number of students that cheat? It goes down. No different than anything else. Wide use of steroids in baseball a decade ago, then the hammer started and what happens? The number of people doing it drops.
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Nevermind. I need to figure out that it never works.
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What goes on in many schools today is a joke compared to 50 years ago....no discipline at all.
Three words: N. E. A.
Karl Marx is smiling.
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And what did you say...."Referring to two suspensions as "multiple suspensions" or being "suspended over and over again" is over the top."
It's easy Lenny, just admit you are wrong...it will be a first for everyone to witness. Two suspensions, is absolutely multiple suspensions and in NO WAY over the top. In fact, it's just flat out dead accurate. You want to quibble with the "over and over again" part, that's fine....but to say two suspensions aren't multiple in any definition on planet earth is just laughable.
Multiple can mean, at the VERY LEAST, two. Or four, twelve, two hundred, etc. - it depends on the context. You qualified the suspensions twice in your post, saying that he had "multiple suspensions" (2 or more) and that he was suspended "over and over again" (more than 2). So unless you were contradictingk yourself, your use of multiple, in the context of your post, meant more than 2. Even a Chicago State student would understand. You, maybe not.
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Multiple can mean, at the VERY LEAST, two. Or four, twelve, two hundred, etc. - it depends on the context. You qualified the suspensions twice in your post, saying that he had "multiple suspensions" (2 or more) and that he was suspended "over and over again" (more than 2). So unless you were contradictingk yourself, your use of multiple, in the context of your post, meant more than 2. Even a Chicago State student would understand. You, maybe not.
He said: "We did it multiple times last night!"
She said: "Well, we did it once then he tried for another but..."
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Getting back on track ... paint touches said the suspension is not for something illegal. So what is legal (or not illegal) that is bad enough to kick the star off the basketball team but not bad enough to kick, him out of school? Apparently that is what happened here.
any ideas of what even fits this criteria?
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Getting back on track ... paint touches said the suspension is not for something illegal. So what is legal (or not illegal) that is bad enough to kick the star off the basketball team but not bad enough to kick, him out of school? Apparently that is what happened here.
any ideas of what even fits this criteria?
I'm confused to what they mean. If you look at the code of conduct, he would have had to committ a class B violation, all of which are illegal.
I think they may mean 'not illegal if of age' and he was simply caught providing alcohol, trying to purchase alcohol or consuming alcohol.
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Tellin' your teacher she looks like a million bucks-----all green and wrinkled.
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These are the things i heard speculated here. If he was caught for underage drinking I probably would not pull his MU scholarship. I might require him to take counseling, since he was suspended once before. If he set a girl's hair on fire I would pull his scholarship. If he was caught smoking pot I would pull his scholarship. We do not need any more Zach McCall embarrassments and you do not want a player on the team that could influence other players to do drugs. Anyone caught cheating in high school should not be admitted to MU. Finally, a player that cannot toe the line probably is not going to survive the demands of Buzz, so why even try to bring him in.
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I'm confused to what they mean. If you look at the code of conduct, he would have had to committ a class B violation, all of which are illegal.
I think they may mean 'not illegal if of age' and he was simply caught providing alcohol, trying to purchase alcohol or consuming alcohol.
This is why we have to wait before passing judgement ... Paint Touches apparently talked to someone on the coaching staff and they said Malek "made a mistake" and what he did was not illegal. I will assume they are correct.
underage drinking is illegal
Weed is illegal
fighting is illegal
So I'm assuming it is none of these.
What you're doing, which is what everyone else is doing, FORCING an illegal act to explain what happened. But PT says that is not what happened here. He was suspended from the team but what he did was not illegal.
Maybe the "mistake" was he told off his coach? Or he blew off practice. That is about the only thing that fits.
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This is why we have to wait ... Paint Touches apparently talked to someone in the coaching staff and they said Malek "made a mistake" and what he did was not illegal. So I will assume they are correct.
underage drinking is illegal
Weed is illegal
fighting is illegal
So I'm assuming it is not of these.
What you're doing, which is what everyone else is doing, FORCING an illegal act to explain what happened. But PT says that is not what happened here. He was suspended from the team but what he did was not illegal.
Maybe the "mistake" was he told off his coach? Or he below off practice. That is about the only thing that fits.
It could very well be an academic issue as well.
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Those days are long gone. I know of a case where a student failed a multiple choice exam (scantron), after they were returned the student came back to the instructor saying the machine must have graded their's improperly as they were almost all correct.
Instructor tells them to bring exam to their office. Sure enough they were almost all correct. Only 1 problem.
The instructor made a photocopy of all the scantrons turned in. This students had been erased very well and corrected to give them a B+. Instructor presents student with the photocopy with different answers.
Student just shrugs shoulders and says, what are you going to do about it...if you take it to the academic conduct council my families attorneys will fight it and win. Student was right.
Moral of the story, it is a different world than when we were in school.
Speak for yourself... graduated HS in 2003 (fairly recently) from an institution where there was a zero-tolerance policy in effect which saw a Yale-bound classmate of mine expelled Senior year.
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It could very well be an academic issue as well.
As I noted above, an academic issue is really tough to fit here. What academic issue gets the star basketball player booted off the team but does not get him booted out of school?
I suggested cheating and/or plagiarism and noted this could very well get you kicked out of school. Then others acted surprised saying they could not believe kids get kicked out for cheating. I guess their school allow cheating and when you're caught you're told "bad boy" and have to resubmit the paper.
FYI "wandering eyes" during a test is not the same as writing answers on your arm, or whatever the modern technological equivalent is today. The former is cheating, the latter is an act of desperation from a kid that is going to do bad and often handled with a stern warning in class.
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As I noted above, an academic issue is really tough to fit here. What academic issue gets the star basketball player booted off the team but does not get him booted out of school?
Skipping class. Unexcused absence. Classroom behavior warranting a suspension of some sort. Those all might be violations of the athletic code that aren't going to get him kicked out of school.
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I think we should wait 5 years years before passin' judgment.
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I think we should wait 5 years years before passin' judgment.
You are on your game tonight!
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Skipping class. Unexcused absence. Classroom behavior warranting a suspension of some sort. Those all might be violations of the athletic code that aren't going to get him kicked out of school.
Ok, agreed ... but does this get you suspended for the entire season? Six weeks before the season even begins? My guess is this gets you suspended "indefinitely" meaning you have to stop this behavior for some period of time (say 30 days).
Now assuming it is one of these, and not weed, or setting some girl's hair on fire, who wants Buzz to pull his schollie over skipping too many classes?
We've all seen the amount of supervision and counseling the players get at MU, this would be almost impossible to do as Buzz would be on it before the end of the first day.
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I heard it was for shootin' spit wads at his English teacher when she was writing on the blackboard.
Seriously, a 17 year old screwed up. Nothing to see here. Move on folks. This is why you over recruit.
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Ok, agreed ... but does this get you suspended for the entire season? Six weeks before the season even begins? My guess is this gets you suspended "indefinitely" meaning you have to stop this behavior for some period of time (say 30 days).
In reading the code of conduct, I think you are right that this would be a harsh penalty if it were just skipping a couple of classes.
It does look as though, since his last offense was a 11 game suspension, that simply attending a party where alcohol is present would have been enough to get him a season ban.
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Harris' coach, Todd Allen, is a bucky alum.
Smoking gun?
Seriously
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In reading the code of conduct, I think you are right that this would be a harsh penalty if it were just skipping a couple of classes.
It does look as though, since his last offense was a 11 game suspension, that simply attending a party where alcohol is present would have been enough to get him a season ban.
I'll assume it was not a two person party and their were many Sandberg HS kids at the party and the school is reeling as multiple basketball, football, baseball, swimmers, chess club, marching band and glee club kids were all handed various suspensions along with Malek. If that was the case, would the local paper have a story about that?
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In reading the code of conduct, I think you are right that this would be a harsh penalty if it were just skipping a couple of classes.
It does look as though, since his last offense was a 11 game suspension, that simply attending a party where alcohol is present would have been enough to get him a season ban.
The code of conduct defines 'attending a party where alcohol is present' as a Class A offense.
edit: I do see that if you commit a violation and don't admit it and are later shown to be guilty (lets say was at a party where alcohol was consumed and happened to be filmed there and denied being present). Then you are guilty of a class C offense, which for him would be treated as another class B and would cause him to be suspended for the year. This may be the most likely scenario, wrong place wrong time, embarrassed to be present and made the mistake of denying being there.
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Multiple can mean, at the VERY LEAST, two. Or four, twelve, two hundred, etc. - it depends on the context. You qualified the suspensions twice in your post, saying that he had "multiple suspensions" (2 or more) and that he was suspended "over and over again" (more than 2). So unless you were contradictingk yourself, your use of multiple, in the context of your post, meant more than 2. Even a Chicago State student would understand. You, maybe not.
LOL. Clintonesque....depends what is is. Congratulations. Keep it going, it is entertaining. He's had multiple suspensions. PERIOD. FACT. You can carve it up however you wish to convince your brain that having 2 or more suspensions IS NOT multiple suspensions (your words)....whatever makes you believe what you believe.
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I think we should wait 5 years years before passin' judgment.
Full judgment, but so far so bad
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It's obvious, isn't it?
Smokin' in the boys room
Smokin' in the boys room
Teacher don't you fill me up with your rule
Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school
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Just guessin'.....Malik and his generation haven't heard too much Brownsville Station.
"i tried to make it Sunday, but I got so damned depressed, that I set my sights on Monday, and I got myself undressed.....but I keep on thinking about you..."
'Merica.
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Three words: N. E. A.
Karl Marx is smiling.
Yeah - all union members are communists.
Go back to bragging about yourself in your posts - It's slightly less annoying than your anti-liberal remarks.
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Just guessin'.....Malik and his generation haven't heard too much Brownsville Station.
"i tried to make it Sunday, but I got so damned depressed, that I set my sights on Monday, and I got myself undressed.....but I keep on thinking about you..."
'Merica.
Gotta be old school - Brownsville Station rather than Alice Cooper or Motley Crue
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"ready, more than I can feel, touching what I can feel, ....Caroline is feeling down...feeling in and out of love...."
Pure Prairie League... Pretty sure that, along with Brownsville Station are not on this generation's iPod.
Speaking of Texas, went through Centerville this week and picked up a couple pounds of jerkey at Woody's. Mmmmm....nummy.
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Three words: N. E. A.
Karl Marx is smiling.
Why don't you visit a school instead of lipping off about them? When I say visit, stay for a day and see the ins and outs. Maybe you could volunteer and be there for many days. See what walks through the doors. The educators have to work with EVERYONE that comes in those doors! They don't get to pick and choose like businesses pick and choose their product. Unfortunately, most students come from broken families, others go home to an empty house because the parents are working odd shifts. A ridiculous amount of drug and alcohol problems, sexual abuse, poverty, students with cognitive problems, learning disabilities, physical impairments, lack of discipline, and disrespect for the profession itself because people like you spout off and you really don't have any idea what they are talking about. By the way, all of those things have to be taken into consideration before teachers can begin teaching their full school day. All lesson plans must meet the needs of all the varied abilities in the classroom. They teach the full day, but then teachers need to find the time to prepare their new innovative lessons, incorporate technology into their teaching, teach the common core, correct and revise homework, purchase additional educational materials with money out of their own pockets, runoff papers that they will need for the next day, respond to parent emails and phone calls once their school day is over. This is a short list of what they really do, believe me, there is way more! The really interesting part is that almost every parent has a different expectation for their child. Many parents have attitudes (like yourself) that are not realistic or true. That forms a disrespect for the profession. One last thing. Teachers work very long hours. In the current teaching profession, teachers must update their educational license every five years. They must go back to school and get six credits to maintain their license. They pay for these credits, and guess when they do this......in the summer. Yeah, the UNPAID summer vacations! It's funny. Construction workers get unemployment benefits when they can't work during the winter, but when teachers can't work in the summer people, like yourself, think it is great to be unemployed for them. "YOU GET YOUR SUMMERS OFF." Would you like your summers off if you were unpaid? For most teachers (you can always find exceptions which I'm sure you would try) summers are spent on district initiatives, getting trained on new curriculum, nonviolent crisis intervention, technology training and much, much more. Most of this is done without getting paid anything!
The bottom line is, the issue isn't our schools, but the lack of parenting in the home. Fifty years ago, we didn't have such a high divorce rate. We didn't have parents coming to the defense of their kids when they got in trouble. Society looked up to our educators and therefore students had a great deal of respect. It's so easy to blame the public schools.Go ahead! Unfortunately, you and so many others that haven't spent time in our schools love to point fingers. I dare you to spend time in our schools and see what these teachers do on a day to day basis. If you would, you wouldn't slam their profession. Most are still what is right in our society.
By the way, who are the "union thugs"? The kindergarten teacher? The art teacher? The fifth grade teacher? Try to step out of yourself and worry about something that you actually understand.
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Union "thugs"? That's so long ago. There's little semblance to the rank-and-file "thugs" of yesteryear nowadays.
My biggest concern is the privatization of public education. It's not education FOR the people BY the people; it's education BY people FOR profit.
Anyhew...
In Buzz we trust. He's astute enough to know a kid's worth to his culture and program.
If he deems Malek worthy enough, then so be it. But I don't know how his eligibility is affected by the disciplinary measure meted out (to him).
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The code of conduct defines 'attending a party where alcohol is present' as a Class A offense.
edit: I do see that if you commit a violation and don't admit it and are later shown to be guilty (lets say was at a party where alcohol was consumed and happened to be filmed there and denied being present). Then you are guilty of a class C offense, which for him would be treated as another class B and would cause him to be suspended for the year. This may be the most likely scenario, wrong place wrong time, embarrassed to be present and made the mistake of denying being there.
Back to my what I asked before. Is it safe to assume that many others were in the same boat as Malek and many were suspended for the same reason? So Sandberg is current reeling from many kids getting in trouble?
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I'm curious for you and TAMU, if it is pot again....would you have zero tolerance of a threepeat at MU? Or would he get a 4 peat, 5 peat, etc? I'm just curious when the second chances run out for folks. By the way, I'm not against second chances, but I am definitely someone that believes 2nd chances are just that, 2nd chances.
Curious where you guys are on it?
Still reading through all the posts that got made since I last looked, but wanted to answer this one right away.
To be perfectly blunt (its funny because we are talking about weed), I don't care much about weed. I've never smoked it myself, but I find that it is a stupid thing to be spending so much energy fighting. But that is a completely different debate.
I am very big on treating student athletes as students. So however you would treat a non-athlete, is how you should treat Harris. Since he is only verbally committed, he is not bound by our student code. Once he is on campus, then any puffing should be handled by the conduct office and he should receive whatever sanction any other student would receive. Honestly, I don't know what that is. Like I said, have never smoked the stuff myself
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Maybe he went to a military school.
He will not lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do.
Aggie honor code!
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Yeah - all union members are communists.
Go back to bragging about yourself in your posts - It's slightly less annoying than your anti-liberal remarks.
Bragging? Hardly. Some people merely exist while others flourish. Some people demand excellence of themselves and others while others submit meekly. A life rich in experience and contribution obviously annoys you. I find that amusing if not ironic.
And, yes, the NEA has done significant harm to this Republic. I have no problem with unions. But the NEA agenda is so far removed from the central premise of organized labor that it is more political action committee than labor union. And that is a problem. The NEA has politicized education and has harmed society in ways that are disturbing, dangerous, and ominous.
Education in this country is completely f#cked up and we as a society are paying the price. We needed a world class coder/developer with control systems experience and every candidate we met with is from India or China. We hired an IIT grad away from Microsoft because IIT is turning out the best software people. His name is Sriram, not Steve. Walk around Bellevue or Redmond, WA and there are more Indians, Chinese, Japanese, and Germans than native born American citizens. By far. Walk around the UDub and Cal Berkeley Engineering Departments and the vast majority of grad students are foreign. Why is that? Where are the native born American students advancing the knowledge base in Engineering, Computer Science, Physics, and Chemistry? Guess what - they aren't there.
I ran into a friend today at Starbucks who is a senior person at Isis, a best of breed player in the NFC space. She commented that their single biggest business challenge these days is H-1B visas. If this country turned out properly trained technical people there would be zero need for H-1B visas. But we don't so we must import our skilled work force from overseas. Meanwhile, American kids are gearing up for poorly paying jobs in QSR. Thank you NEA.
My kids went to International Schools and through the IB program were doing Second Year University Maths, Chemistry, and Physics as high school juniors. Their American counterparts are at a huge disadvantage vis-à-vis those educated in other countries.
I have written here in the past about Matthew Arnold. I suggest you read Culture and Anarchy. Or any of the Transcendentalists. I strongly believe that Arnold, Tennyson, Thoreau, Ripley, or Emerson would be horrified by what passes for education in the contemporary United States.
I am neither liberal or conservative. I am pragmatic. This nation's educational system is failing us. If you need proof come visit Seattle or San Jose and see for yourself. American enterprise requires huge numbers of foreign trained skilled workers to maintain any semblance of innovation or competitive advantage. I don't need to go to an American high school to see how education is failing us. I need only to walk across the Microsoft campus to see how the rest of the world is running circles around us.
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Why don't you visit a school instead of lipping off about them? When I say visit, stay for a day and see the ins and outs. Maybe you could volunteer and be there for many days. See what walks through the doors. The educators have to work with EVERYONE that comes in those doors! They don't get to pick and choose like businesses pick and choose their product. Unfortunately, most students come from broken families, others go home to an empty house because the parents are working odd shifts. A ridiculous amount of drug and alcohol problems, sexual abuse, poverty, students with cognitive problems, learning disabilities, physical impairments, lack of discipline, and disrespect for the profession itself because people like you spout off and you really don't have any idea what they are talking about. By the way, all of those things have to be taken into consideration before teachers can begin teaching their full school day. All lesson plans must meet the needs of all the varied abilities in the classroom. They teach the full day, but then teachers need to find the time to prepare their new innovative lessons, incorporate technology into their teaching, teach the common core, correct and revise homework, purchase additional educational materials with money out of their own pockets, runoff papers that they will need for the next day, respond to parent emails and phone calls once their school day is over. This is a short list of what they really do, believe me, there is way more! The really interesting part is that almost every parent has a different expectation for their child. Many parents have attitudes (like yourself) that are not realistic or true. That forms a disrespect for the profession. One last thing. Teachers work very long hours. In the current teaching profession, teachers must update their educational license every five years. They must go back to school and get six credits to maintain their license. They pay for these credits, and guess when they do this......in the summer. Yeah, the UNPAID summer vacations! It's funny. Construction workers get unemployment benefits when they can't work during the winter, but when teachers can't work in the summer people, like yourself, think it is great to be unemployed for them. "YOU GET YOUR SUMMERS OFF." Would you like your summers off if you were unpaid? For most teachers (you can always find exceptions which I'm sure you would try) summers are spent on district initiatives, getting trained on new curriculum, nonviolent crisis intervention, technology training and much, much more. Most of this is done without getting paid anything!
The bottom line is, the issue isn't our schools, but the lack of parenting in the home. Fifty years ago, we didn't have such a high divorce rate. We didn't have parents coming to the defense of their kids when they got in trouble. Society looked up to our educators and therefore students had a great deal of respect. It's so easy to blame the public schools.Go ahead! Unfortunately, you and so many others that haven't spent time in our schools love to point fingers. I dare you to spend time in our schools and see what these teachers do on a day to day basis. If you would, you wouldn't slam their profession. Most are still what is right in our society.
By the way, who are the "union thugs"? The kindergarten teacher? The art teacher? The fifth grade teacher? Try to step out of yourself and worry about something that you actually understand.
I said nothing about teachers. Or "Union Thugs." But I share some of your thoughts, especially on the role and responsibility of parents. My wife and I had demanding jobs that required significant time and lots of travel. And even though we had Amahs we always ensured one of us was available for school oversight as that was something that could not be delegated. We were actively engaged in their education and they flourished. My son is a professional educator, teaching university in Italy. I see his passion for his profession, his students, and the art of teaching. He could likely earn more pursuing other interests but he is doing what he loves and I respect that and take great comfort in his choice of career.
But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
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"ready, more than I can feel, touching what I can feel, ....Caroline is feeling down...feeling in and out of love...."
Pure Prairie League... Pretty sure that, along with Brownsville Station are not on this generation's iPod.
Speaking of Texas, went through Centerville this week and picked up a couple pounds of jerkey at Woody's. Mmmmm....nummy.
Pure Prairie League. Wow. Bustin' Out is a great album. Craig Lee Fuller's leaving the band was pretty much the end. They did bring in Vince Gill for Two Lane Highway but Fuller was the artistic soul.
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http://youtu.be/RnH_kg_-o04?t=35s
I heard there's video of the whole hair burning thing.
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Bragging? Hardly. Some people merely exist while others flourish. Some people demand excellence of themselves and others while others submit meekly. A life rich in experience and contribution obviously annoys you. I find that amusing if not ironic.
I know many people who flourish, demand excellence of themselves, and live lives rich in experience.
They just don't find the need to constantly tell everyone about it.
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They must go back to school and get six credits to maintain their license. They pay for these credits, and guess when they do this......in the summer. Yeah, the UNPAID summer vacations! It's funny. Construction workers get unemployment benefits when they can't work during the winter, but when teachers can't work in the summer people, like yourself, think it is great to be unemployed for them. "YOU GET YOUR SUMMERS OFF." Would you like your summers off if you were unpaid?
Whether teachers are under or over paid is a different argument. However, I believe it is incorrect to say they do not get paid for the summer months. They sign a contract for the year. When they sign that contract they can elect to be paid over the 9 months or over the year. However, if you elect to be paid over the year the school system will give you one big check in June instead of paying you every month in the summer. Sure it becomes a budgeting issue, but the reason in Wisconsin why you do not get unemployment is that they are paid upfront for the summer months, either by a big check in June or 9 higher checks during the school year. Some other states do it differently, so teachers can get unemployment, but in Wisconsin you are paid for 12 months. I assume being paid upfront was negotiated by unions at some point.
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Whether teachers are under or over paid is a different argument. However, I believe it is incorrect to say they do not get paid for the summer months. They sign a contract for the year. When they sign that contract they can elect to be paid over the 9 months or over the year. However, if you elect to be paid over the year the school system will give you one big check in June instead of paying you every month in the summer. Sure it becomes a budgeting issue, but the reason in Wisconsin why you do not get unemployment is that they are paid upfront for the summer months, either by a big check in June or 9 higher checks during the school year. Some other states do it differently, so teachers can get unemployment, but in Wisconsin you are paid for 12 months. I assume being paid upfront was negotiated by unions at some point.
My wife is a teacher and this is how they do it in Connecticut. You pick 10 or 12 months. If you pick 12 months the last check in June is called the "balloon check".
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My wife is a teacher and this is how they do it in Connecticut. You pick 10 or 12 months. If you pick 12 months the last check in June is called the "balloon check".
My wife also a teacher (well, a speech pathologist) in the Bridgeport school system. She is on the Bridgeport Teacher's contract and she gets paid throughout the summer (26 payments/year), except the checks are a little higher because the union dues are not taken out during the summer, but no balloon payment.
We are very familiar with the public schools. I sent my kid to a Catholic High School, where the kids all do much better than the public high schools, despite the fact that the facilities are not as good and the teachers are less well paid, etc. I have always said that what you are paying for mostly in a Catholic High School in CT is not religious training, though you get that, not better teachers, not better facilities, not better class sizes, etc. You are paying for better classmates and thus a better learning environment.
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But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr03/2013/4/22/19/anigif_enhanced-buzz-24936-1366672649-1.gif)
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Three words: N. E. A.
Karl Marx is smiling.
I was thinking more along these lines.
(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/getreligion/files/2010/09/nun-motion-clicker.jpg) (http://wp.patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/files/2011/07/nun-with-ruler.jpg)
(http://images.animationfactory.com/thw/thw14/AF/animations/religious/christianity/nun_slapping_ruler/4957778.gif?nun_slapping_ruler_lg_wm)
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We are very familiar the public schools. I sent my kid to a Catholic High School, where the kids all do much better than the public high schools, despite the fact that the facilities are not as good and the teachers are less well paid, etc. I have always said that what you are paying for mostly in a Catholic High School in CT is not religious training, though you get that, not better teachers, not better facilities, not better class sizes, etc. You are paying for better classmates and thus a better learning environment.
Yup. There's a reason why so many of our gov't leaders send their kids to private schools.
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But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
I work in IT and part of my responsibility over the years has been to train end users around the world in SAP. We know to build in extra time to train Americans in everything. I can remember the first time I was training customer care in China, one of the students actually interrupted me and asked why I was going so slow and talking to them like they were "stupid". I realized I trained that slowly because that is what I had to do in the US. I hate to say it, but over time my company has moved a lot of stuff like customer care to Mexico, and the fact is that you pay a lot less for those people and they do a better job, partiularly with cognitive reasoning. It seems to me that most Americans who work at that level try to memorize their job, while the in the rest of the world the people try to understand their job, so they can react when curves are thrown their way. In my experience, I don't see that difference in the workforce in true professionals like accountants, programmers, sales and service engineers that keefe mentions, however, but I don't doubt him. In my world, it is the entry level staff like shipping clerks and customer service where the differences are very pronounced.
Also, as those I work with in IT retire, it is impossible to find American replacements, and my boss goes out of his to try. But our last three hires have been Indian transplants.
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LOL. Clintonesque....depends what is is. Congratulations. Keep it going, it is entertaining. He's had multiple suspensions. PERIOD. FACT. You can carve it up however you wish to convince your brain that having 2 or more suspensions IS NOT multiple suspensions (your words)....whatever makes you believe what you believe.
LOL, indeed. Not Clitonesque, merely logical. In the SAME post you use "multiple suspensions" and being "suspended over and over again" synonymously. Two possibilities here:
1.If multiple means two, three or more and over and over again means three or more then you were using multiple (as one certainly can) to mean three or more to square with over and over again. You simply had your facts wrong and were over the top in going after the kid.
2.You were claiming he was suspended twice in paragraph one and three or more times in paragraph two (in which case your post was contradictory and stupid). If you really meant to connote two suspensions in paragraph one and three or more in paragraph two, then I indeed was wrong about how you were using "multiple" but you...? Well, it's a good thing you're not trying to gain acceptance to UW-Oshkosh today.
Question - If you read a story that said the suspect has been convicted of rape "multiple times" and went on to say he's been convicted of rape "over and over again" would you interpret his use of multiple as two? I wouldn't and nobody else with any common sense would either. Context, Chico.
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My wife also a teacher (well, a speech pathologist) in the Bridgeport school system. She is on the Bridgeport Teacher's contract and she gets paid throughout the summer (26 payments/year), except the checks are a little higher because the union dues are not taken out during the summer, but no balloon payment.
We are very familiar the public schools. I sent my kid to a Catholic High School, where the kids all do much better than the public high schools, despite the fact that the facilities are not as good and the teachers are less well paid, etc. I have always said that what you are paying for mostly in a Catholic High School in CT is not religious training, though you get that, not better teachers, not better facilities, not better class sizes, etc. You are paying for better classmates and thus a better learning environment.
I thankfully don't need to send my kids private school in my town which is part of the reason why I live where I live.
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I said nothing about teachers. Or "Union Thugs." But I share some of your thoughts, especially on the role and responsibility of parents. My wife and I had demanding jobs that required significant time and lots of travel. And even though we had Amahs we always ensured one of us was available for school oversight as that was something that could not be delegated. We were actively engaged in their education and they flourished. My son is a professional educator, teaching university in Italy. I see his passion for his profession, his students, and the art of teaching. He could likely earn more pursuing other interests but he is doing what he loves and I respect that and take great comfort in his choice of career.
But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
I see part of the problem due to an amazingly big difference between states school curriculumn. My cousin was subbing Connecticut, but moved to Tampa Florida for two years to get a full time teaching job and get some teaching experience. He's back in Connecticut now and teaching full-time. He teaches 5th grade and he said he was shocked that 5th grade coursework in Florida begins where kids in Connecticut reach half-way through 3rd grade.
My Seton Hall friends (husband & wife), the wife is in education in Connecticut and she has a cousin that teaches high school in (what she said) is one of the better districts in Tampa, Florida. They compared high school curricula from Connecticut & Florida and they found the Senior year AP classes in Florida are the same as what every public high school teaches in Connecticut Freshman year.
This type of stuff distorts the US News & World Report rankings for high schools because they use the percentage of students taking AP classes as one of their criteria.
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Hmmm....A thread on a suspension of an MU recruit evolves (devolves) into a commentary of 80's and 90's music, our educational system (and the politics associated with it) and union power.
Time for the Superbar?
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Hmmm....A thread on a suspension of an MU recruit evolves (devolves) into a commentary of 80's and 90's music, our educational system (and the politics associated with it) and union power.
Time for the Superbar?
Amen
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I see part of the problem due to an amazingly big difference between states school curriculumn. My cousin was subbing Connecticut, but moved to Tampa Florida for two years to get a full time teaching job and get some teaching experience. He's back in Connecticut now and teaching full-time. He teaches 5th grade and he said he was shocked that 5th grade coursework in Florida begins where kids in Connecticut reach half-way through 3rd grade.
My Seton Hall friends (husband & wife), the wife is in education in Connecticut and she has a cousin that teaches high school in (what she said) is one of the better districts in Tampa, Florida. They compared high school curricula from Connecticut & Florida and they found the Senior year AP classes in Florida are the same as what every public high school teaches in Connecticut Freshman year.
This type of stuff distorts the US News & World Report rankings for high schools because they use the percentage of students taking AP classes as one of their criteria.
My brother is living proof of this dichotomy. We lived in Ohio up until he was in the first grade and then we moved to Tampa(AF dad), where he was vastly ahead of his 1st grade classmates. So far ahead in fact, that for a month until we found out, the teacher told him to bring books to class and read them while she taught the rest of the kids who were so far behind. As part of our attempt to keep him up we all tutored him, including me even though I was only in the 8th grade. We only stayed two years before we bolted for Illinois, and my brother was now in the 3rd grade. You guessed it, he was at least a year behind his peers despite all our efforts. He has overcome the obstacles and is now a very successful high school science teacher but it put him so far behind the 8-ball I can't imagine what could have been different for him.
And I agree with Keefe, I'm in the technology industry and I have to deal with hardware, firmware, and software development all the time. Our engineering resources are getting older and we aren't seeing much in the way of replacements that are as cognitively capable. Very good at execution but struggle with conceptual and doing things the smart way not just the way it's put down on paper.
I did IB in high school among other things and one of the key things I constantly ran into was open ended assignments. I had a basic overview of what the teacher was looking for but no detailed deliverable(like a 5 paragraph essay or something). Forced me to not only come up with a solution but an effective way of presenting the solution. I think that is missing today.
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I said nothing about teachers. Or "Union Thugs." But I share some of your thoughts, especially on the role and responsibility of parents. My wife and I had demanding jobs that required significant time and lots of travel. And even though we had Amahs we always ensured one of us was available for school oversight as that was something that could not be delegated. We were actively engaged in their education and they flourished. My son is a professional educator, teaching university in Italy. I see his passion for his profession, his students, and the art of teaching. He could likely earn more pursuing other interests but he is doing what he loves and I respect that and take great comfort in his choice of career.
But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
interesting as the states with unions all scored the highest on college admittance tests while those with right to work laws were the lowest. i'm not in love with unions, but it's not their fault. they did choose to play politics, and that's a choice they live with. The evidence just seems to show that states with unions have higher achievement on ACT's/SAT's.
also interesting that our NAEP scores, when broken down by demographics, are higher than other G8 countries (who often don't test all students)
then you have people like diane ravich, who after working for bush and being a huge proponent of standardized testing and no child left behind, took a look at the data and realized she was entirely incorrect. you can find her latest book in the top 10 of the NY sellers hardcover, but with 2 different duck dynasty books finishing ahead of her i think the argument that she makes is already stated...it might not be the schools, but rather the culture.
public schools need to get better, but they are achieving more within every sub-group in the united states...the problem is the sub-groups that typically have the lowest scores continue to increase in size.
it is amazing to me how everyone feels the need to tell public education how to run itself, and how they know better than those in the field. i'm sure keefe has always been a fan of politicians and private business telling the armed services how to handle its business. it sounds as if many on here are complaining about science based jobs being in high demand with little supply...i wonder if politicians basing all their evidence of public education on reading and math scores (and paying no attention to science - see no science test even being proposed for the new common core state standards) has anything to do with that, or do you think science teachers just prefer to teach reading and math during lab time? i recently heard an educational speaker comment that if you switched india's teachers with finland's teachers finland's schools would still be stellar and india's would still struggle...i buy that.
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I was thinking more along these lines.
(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/getreligion/files/2010/09/nun-motion-clicker.jpg) (http://wp.patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/files/2011/07/nun-with-ruler.jpg)
(http://images.animationfactory.com/thw/thw14/AF/animations/religious/christianity/nun_slapping_ruler/4957778.gif?nun_slapping_ruler_lg_wm)
I was taught by several nuns in grade school. I do not remember them hitting anyone with a ruler, but I know I believe they would hit me with one if I misbehaved.
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interesting as the states with unions all scored the highest on college admittance tests while those with right to work laws were the lowest. i'm not in love with unions, but it's not their fault. they did choose to play politics, and that's a choice they live with. The evidence just seems to show that states with unions have higher achievement on ACT's/SAT's.
also interesting that our NAEP scores, when broken down by demographics, are higher than other G8 countries (who often don't test all students)
then you have people like diane ravich, who after working for bush and being a huge proponent of standardized testing and no child left behind, took a look at the data and realized she was entirely incorrect. you can find her latest book in the top 10 of the NY sellers hardcover, but with 2 different duck dynasty books finishing ahead of her i think the argument that she makes is already stated...it might not be the schools, but rather the culture.
public schools need to get better, but they are achieving more within every sub-group in the united states...the problem is the sub-groups that typically have the lowest scores continue to increase in size.
it is amazing to me how everyone feels the need to tell public education how to run itself, and how they know better than those in the field. i'm sure keefe has always been a fan of politicians and private business telling the armed services how to handle its business. it sounds as if many on here are complaining about science based jobs being in high demand with little supply...i wonder if politicians basing all their evidence of public education on reading and math scores (and paying no attention to science - see no science test even being proposed for the new common core state standards) has anything to do with that, or do you think science teachers just prefer to teach reading and math during lab time? i recently heard an educational speaker comment that if you switched india's teachers with finland's teachers finland's schools would still be stellar and india's would still struggle...i buy that.
Avid,
From the August 2013 edition of one of my favorite magazines, The Atlantic.
The Architect of School Reform Who Turned Against It
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/09/the-counterrevolutionary/309427/
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Yup. There's a reason why so many of our gov't leaders send their kids to private schools.
agreed, and it's also the reason i will send my kids to very diverse (ethnic and socio-economic) public schools...even though the district i live in has the highest scores in the state (also no diversity). we're not serious about helping poor people in this country (either party), but being of a younger generation, i wonder what is expected of a country that only desegregated schools ~60 years ago. amazing that obama allows duncan to walk this line...i get unions have been entrenched in racism, but the privatization is essentially admitting we can't educate all students.
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I was taught by several nuns in grade school. I do not remember them hitting anyone with a ruler, but I know I believe they would hit me with one if I misbehaved.
I was taught by nuns. No ruler hitting, but they were fond of back of the head slaps and throwing things. Usually erasers. Honestly, it made me pay attention better, I didn't mind it.
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I was taught by several nuns in grade school. I do not remember them hitting anyone with a ruler, but I know I believe they would hit me with one if I misbehaved.
Maybe not with a ruler, but remember Jake and Elwood getting slapped around with that steel pointer? And we all know that was based on a true story. Because cab Calloway was in the movie, and Jake and Elwood were on a mission from God.
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agreed, and it's also the reason i will send my kids to very diverse (ethnic and socio-economic) public schools...even though the district i live in has the highest scores in the state (also no diversity). we're not serious about helping poor people in this country (either party), but being of a younger generation, i wonder what is expected of a country that only desegregated schools ~60 years ago. amazing that obama allows duncan to walk this line...i get unions have been entrenched in racism, but the privatization is essentially admitting we can't educate all students.
I send my kids to public schools, despite both my wife and I going to private schools. We live in a very diverse area and the schools are great, mostly driven by exceptional test scores by the students (who are predominately Asian). It is one of the reasons we chose to live where we do, because education is a big deal and it is rooted in the culture. Drives me son nuts, he'd rather play video games, but most of his peers are hitting the books. That being said, we've waged the War on Poverty for 50 years...I don't agree that we are not serious about helping, we have spent trillions on the issue. Some people are helped, some people choose not to be helped if you know what I mean. There's a two way street. You can give people fish or teach them how to fish, and some people just don't want to learn how to fish.
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I was taught by nuns. No ruler hitting, but they were fond of back of the head slaps and throwing things. Usually erasers. Honestly, it made me pay attention better, I didn't mind it.
Depends how old you are. We had a swatting board on the wall as a reminder, a deterrent. It was never used, but always wondered if there would be a day where I heard "Thank you Sister, may I have another".
The ruler, a light smack to the head, a grabbing of the ear lobe, etc, were usually the chosen actions. Usually only took the class clown or some idiot to get whacked once early in the semester and no one crossed the good sisters any longer. Hands folded, straight back, do your work. Play grabass outside, not in the classroom.
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Just to chime in before the lock, if the NEA were the problem, then Charter schools would be thriving. In my state, charter schools are more likely to underperform the public schools in the same district. With non-union teachers and increased parental involvement. It is a culture thing, which goes back to the 'old days' thread. If you want to attract the best and brightest to teach, you have to pay them and not waste time tearing them down because they are in a union. "Getting rid of sub-par teachers" is a worthless canard because there are is so little incentive for gifted teachers to get into teaching in the public schools. Who needs that kind of abuse? Parents must stop being narcissistic and juvenile themselves, turn off the TV's and video games, learn how to say 'no' to their children, to get them to bed at a reasonable hour and quit expecting the public school teachers to do miracles with no support and no money.
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This thread is stupid now.
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This thread is stupid now.
This assumes it was ever not stupid
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Some people are helped, some people choose not to be helped if you know what I mean. There's a two way street. You can give people fish or teach them how to fish, and some people just don't want to learn how to fish.
And some people simply are incapable of fishing.
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What if you got paid not to fish?
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What if you got paid not to fish?
Makes for an angry society wondering WTF they are doing fishing for others getting paid not to. Bad formula. What could possibly go wrong. ::)
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This thread is stupid now.
yup.
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Avid,
From the August 2013 edition of one of my favorite magazines, The Atlantic.
The Architect of School Reform Who Turned Against It
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/09/the-counterrevolutionary/309427/
Nutmeg
You have excellent taste in reading material. One of my favorites is a long time contributor to The Atlantic, James Fallows. His insights are always engaging and thought provoking. He offered me a very different perspective on Japan, for instance, that altered some of my views on a culture I thought I knew well. I always look forward to the arrival of The Atlantic.
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What if you got paid not to fish?
This great Republic began doing that in 1933. The fishermen got raises in 1965.
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I said nothing about teachers. Or "Union Thugs." But I share some of your thoughts, especially on the role and responsibility of parents. My wife and I had demanding jobs that required significant time and lots of travel. And even though we had Amahs we always ensured one of us was available for school oversight as that was something that could not be delegated. We were actively engaged in their education and they flourished. My son is a professional educator, teaching university in Italy. I see his passion for his profession, his students, and the art of teaching. He could likely earn more pursuing other interests but he is doing what he loves and I respect that and take great comfort in his choice of career.
But I disagree with your assessment of our schools. I see the results in the business world daily and, frankly, I find it extremely discouraging. The American educational system is not delivering the results this great nation deserves. I don't know where you live but in the high tech nodes there is a critical shortage of skilled talent. Increasingly, we import the talent needed to deliver next generation technology. Someday, as capital shifts off shore, you will find less coming out of Seattle, San Jose, and Rte 128 and more originating in Shanghai, Hyderabad, and Beijing. Perhaps our schools should start teaching Mandarin and Hindi as American prowess is eclipsed and the call center jobs boomerang back to the less talented Americans.
You'll see more coming out of our schools if they didn't dump creative arts (woodshop, metalshop, home ec, etc.) for college preparedness coursework.
Not everyone is made for college. Yet the system is still ramming spheres into square pegs.
We need a nation of makers, producers of all levels. Creativity and ingenuity NOT just in tangible items but concepts and designs.
Plus, comparing India to the US isn't really fair. For one, it's a larger population but somehow you focus on the successful that make it. There is a much LARGER majority that don't and never are part of the same sentence.
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Nutmeg
You have excellent taste in reading material. One of my favorites is a long time contributor to The Atlantic, James Fallows. His insights are always engaging and thought provoking. He offered me a very different perspective on Japan, for instance, that altered some of my views on a culture I thought I knew well. I always look forward to the arrival of The Atlantic.
His two or three years of living in Shanghai with the family and then reporting about life in China were fabulous.
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And some people simply are incapable of fishing.
True, and in a society as wealthy as ours those people should be taken care of, but....I don't know if you (or anyone else here) saw 60 Minutes expose' on what's happened in the "disability industry" in the past 5-6 years. Twelve million new people, most of whom are not disabled, on the dole - aided and abetted in what amounts to fraud by lawyers who "guarantee" to move people seamlessly from 104 weeks of unemployment to $23,000 a year of disability compensation. Add in a government uninterested in pursuing these perpetrators of fraud and sadly the "incapable" are lumped in with the cheaters.
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I work in IT and part of my responsibility over the years has been to train end users around the world in SAP. We know to build in extra time to train Americans in everything. I can remember the first time I was training customer care in China, one of the students actually interrupted me and asked why I was going so slow and talking to them like they were "stupid". I realized I trained that slowly because that is what I had to do in the US. I hate to say it, but over time my company has moved a lot of stuff like customer care to Mexico, and the fact is that you pay a lot less for those people and they do a better job, partiularly with cognitive reasoning. It seems to me that most Americans who work at that level try to memorize their job, while the in the rest of the world the people try to understand their job, so they can react when curves are thrown their way. In my experience, I don't see that difference in the workforce in true professionals like accountants, programmers, sales and service engineers that keefe mentions, however, but I don't doubt him. In my world, it is the entry level staff like shipping clerks and customer service where the differences are very pronounced.
Also, as those I work with in IT retire, it is impossible to find American replacements, and my boss goes out of his to try. But our last three hires have been Indian transplants.
The critical thinking skills needed for innovation are becoming increasingly rare among American technical staff. Hence the need for H-1B visas. Young American coder, developers, electrochemical engineers who can not only execute technical delivery but also improvise 'what if' solutions are bloody difficult to find. There is a reason Bill Gates goes before Congress every year to demand more H-1B's.
WASHINGTON--For the second year in a row, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates ventured to Capitol Hill and urged Congress to let more foreign-born engineers work in the United States and to direct larger numbers of tax dollars to research and education.
Just as he did around the same time last year before a U.S. Senate committee, Gates on Wednesday contended America's competitiveness in the global economy is "at risk." He said Congress, the administration, and the next president must commit to overhauling immigration policy and encouraging both public and private research investment.
The hearing was convened, and Gates invited, to mark the committee's 50th anniversary. The occasion alone foreshadowed an exchange of pleasantries that consumed most of the event.
For example, Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.) requested advice, from one father of a 7-year-old daughter to another, about what sort of hardware and software might help her adapt to the new world. (Gates, for the record, gave a whimsical endorsement of the Internet's power to answer all those questions that his parents would have had to leave unanswered back in the day.)
And Republican Ranking Member Ralph Hall (R-Texas), who posed a number of questions about skills needed by engineers in the tech space, made Gates a practically unheard-of concession: "You can take any or all of those (questions) or none of them."
One notable exception to the friendly reception, however, came when Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) used his five allotted minutes to grill Gates on the merits of visa cap increases. "Will it not hurt those countries and will it also not depress wages for people in our own country?" the congressman asked.
"No," the Microsoft chairman responded sharply. "These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."
Rohrabacher said he's not talking about "top" students. He's concerned about the B and C American students who "fought for our country and kept it free." There's no excuse, he argued, for displacing those people with "A students from India."
An audibly irritated Gates replied that when companies like Microsoft hire top foreign engineers, they create jobs for B and C American students around them. If Microsoft weren't able to hire those top engineers in the United States, it'd be doing so in other countries and surrounding them with native B and C students, he said.
Rohrabacher argued that if companies like Microsoft simply raised wages, they'd find plenty of Americans lining up for those jobs.
"No, it's not an issue of raising wages," Gates retorted. "These jobs are very, very high paying jobs."
Earlier in his remarks, Gates said Microsoft was unable to hire one-third of the foreign-born candidates it wished to hire because of too few H-1B visas. In an attempt to show a shortage of qualified Americans to fill his company's posts, he pointed to a 2008 National Science Foundation study that found in 2005, 59 percent of all doctoral degrees and 43 percent of all higher-education degrees in engineering and science are awarded to temporary residents.
Gates also suggested the U.S. government's stance toward high-skilled foreigners is absurd in comparison with other countries. He pointed out Microsoft's decision last year to open an outpost just over the Canadian border from Washington as a sort of refuge for foreign-born employees for whom it couldn't obtain U.S. visas.
Rohrabacher's badgering isn't just talk: He has sponsored a bill that would require employers to prove they're not displacing American workers and fulfill other obligations before obtaining H-1Bs, as have two U.S. senators.
Such efforts enjoy support from groups representing American computer programmers, such as the Programmers Guild, which continue to argue that the worker shortages described by Gates and other high-tech executives in recent years are bogus.
Ron Hira, a public policy professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and author of the book Outsourcing America, told CNET News.com on Wednesday that it's wrong for Gates to imply that most H-1Bs are going to the brightest foreigners with advanced degrees and earning them big bucks. According to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the typical H-1B holder holds a bachelor's degree and is making a median salary of $50,000. And the same NSF report referenced by Gates says less than 1 percent of H-1B recipients in computer-related professions even hold doctoral degrees, and about 44 percent hold master's degrees.
Still, politicians with a skeptical view of visa expansion appear to be largely the exception in Congress. Other members from both political parties at Wednesday's hearing suggested Gates' push for a more liberal immigration policy was right on.
Whether those long-sought changes will occur this year remains unclear. Attempts to overhaul the immigration system collapsed last year, and with them went efforts to hike the number of H-1B visas and green cards.
"These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."
--Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates
To be fair, Gates emphasized that changes in immigration alone aren't enough. He repeatedly called for improvements in training American teachers and students in science and technology fields at all levels, from kindergartens to universities.
Few in Congress seem to disagree with Gates' push for greater investments in research and education. Last year, the president signed a measure called the America Competes Act into law, which calls for pouring some $33.6 billion into a bevy of federal science, technology and research programs. Members of the Science Committee said they would be pressuring appropriations committees to ensure the target funding amounts are fulfilled in the final budget.
Throughout the hearing, Gates repeatedly received praise for his work through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. But at least one member, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-Calif.), who represents what she called the "challenging communities" of Watts, Compton, and Long Beach, clearly wanted Gates to be even more generous. She pressed the billionaire philanthropist to commit to sponsoring more scholarships with guaranteed jobs at companies like his waiting after a university degree is obtained.
Gates said he agrees scholarships are important, but he wasn't willing to go as far as Richardson had wished.
"There's just no shortage of jobs being offered to those top students in computer science," he said. "They are highly sought after."
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I was taught by nuns. No ruler hitting, but they were fond of back of the head slaps and throwing things. Usually erasers. Honestly, it made me pay attention better, I didn't mind it.
I went to Georgetown Prep which has "The Board of Education." This device was created in the 19th Century and was still in use in the latter half of the last century. I believe that "The Board" delivered more than a few lessons in its almost two hundred years of existence.
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His two or three years of living in Shanghai with the family and then reporting about life in China were fabulous.
Looking Into the Sun is a compelling look at Capitalism from the Asian perspective. And his Blind Into Baghdad was a must read for every officer struggling with the complexities of our Iraq policy. Fallows is quite simply one of America's most gifted writers.
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I know many people who flourish, demand excellence of themselves, and live lives rich in experience.
They just don't find the need to constantly tell everyone about it.
You and I have very different standards and expectations. And therein lies the difference.
One can tell everyone what they think they know. Or one can share actual experience. Playing on the field is very different than sitting in the stands.
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The critical thinking skills needed for innovation are becoming increasingly rare among American technical staff. Hence the need for H-1B visas. Young American coder, developers, electrochemical engineers who can not only execute technical delivery but also improvise 'what if' solutions are bloody difficult to find. There is a reason Bill Gates goes before Congress every year to demand more H-1B's.
WASHINGTON--For the second year in a row, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates ventured to Capitol Hill and urged Congress to let more foreign-born engineers work in the United States and to direct larger numbers of tax dollars to research and education.
Just as he did around the same time last year before a U.S. Senate committee, Gates on Wednesday contended America's competitiveness in the global economy is "at risk." He said Congress, the administration, and the next president must commit to overhauling immigration policy and encouraging both public and private research investment.
The hearing was convened, and Gates invited, to mark the committee's 50th anniversary. The occasion alone foreshadowed an exchange of pleasantries that consumed most of the event.
For example, Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.) requested advice, from one father of a 7-year-old daughter to another, about what sort of hardware and software might help her adapt to the new world. (Gates, for the record, gave a whimsical endorsement of the Internet's power to answer all those questions that his parents would have had to leave unanswered back in the day.)
And Republican Ranking Member Ralph Hall (R-Texas), who posed a number of questions about skills needed by engineers in the tech space, made Gates a practically unheard-of concession: "You can take any or all of those (questions) or none of them."
One notable exception to the friendly reception, however, came when Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) used his five allotted minutes to grill Gates on the merits of visa cap increases. "Will it not hurt those countries and will it also not depress wages for people in our own country?" the congressman asked.
"No," the Microsoft chairman responded sharply. "These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."
Rohrabacher said he's not talking about "top" students. He's concerned about the B and C American students who "fought for our country and kept it free." There's no excuse, he argued, for displacing those people with "A students from India."
An audibly irritated Gates replied that when companies like Microsoft hire top foreign engineers, they create jobs for B and C American students around them. If Microsoft weren't able to hire those top engineers in the United States, it'd be doing so in other countries and surrounding them with native B and C students, he said.
Rohrabacher argued that if companies like Microsoft simply raised wages, they'd find plenty of Americans lining up for those jobs.
"No, it's not an issue of raising wages," Gates retorted. "These jobs are very, very high paying jobs."
Earlier in his remarks, Gates said Microsoft was unable to hire one-third of the foreign-born candidates it wished to hire because of too few H-1B visas. In an attempt to show a shortage of qualified Americans to fill his company's posts, he pointed to a 2008 National Science Foundation study that found in 2005, 59 percent of all doctoral degrees and 43 percent of all higher-education degrees in engineering and science are awarded to temporary residents.
Gates also suggested the U.S. government's stance toward high-skilled foreigners is absurd in comparison with other countries. He pointed out Microsoft's decision last year to open an outpost just over the Canadian border from Washington as a sort of refuge for foreign-born employees for whom it couldn't obtain U.S. visas.
Rohrabacher's badgering isn't just talk: He has sponsored a bill that would require employers to prove they're not displacing American workers and fulfill other obligations before obtaining H-1Bs, as have two U.S. senators.
Such efforts enjoy support from groups representing American computer programmers, such as the Programmers Guild, which continue to argue that the worker shortages described by Gates and other high-tech executives in recent years are bogus.
Ron Hira, a public policy professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and author of the book Outsourcing America, told CNET News.com on Wednesday that it's wrong for Gates to imply that most H-1Bs are going to the brightest foreigners with advanced degrees and earning them big bucks. According to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the typical H-1B holder holds a bachelor's degree and is making a median salary of $50,000. And the same NSF report referenced by Gates says less than 1 percent of H-1B recipients in computer-related professions even hold doctoral degrees, and about 44 percent hold master's degrees.
Still, politicians with a skeptical view of visa expansion appear to be largely the exception in Congress. Other members from both political parties at Wednesday's hearing suggested Gates' push for a more liberal immigration policy was right on.
Whether those long-sought changes will occur this year remains unclear. Attempts to overhaul the immigration system collapsed last year, and with them went efforts to hike the number of H-1B visas and green cards.
"These top people are going to be hired. It's just a question of where."
--Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates
To be fair, Gates emphasized that changes in immigration alone aren't enough. He repeatedly called for improvements in training American teachers and students in science and technology fields at all levels, from kindergartens to universities.
Few in Congress seem to disagree with Gates' push for greater investments in research and education. Last year, the president signed a measure called the America Competes Act into law, which calls for pouring some $33.6 billion into a bevy of federal science, technology and research programs. Members of the Science Committee said they would be pressuring appropriations committees to ensure the target funding amounts are fulfilled in the final budget.
Throughout the hearing, Gates repeatedly received praise for his work through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. But at least one member, Rep. Laura Richardson (D-Calif.), who represents what she called the "challenging communities" of Watts, Compton, and Long Beach, clearly wanted Gates to be even more generous. She pressed the billionaire philanthropist to commit to sponsoring more scholarships with guaranteed jobs at companies like his waiting after a university degree is obtained.
Gates said he agrees scholarships are important, but he wasn't willing to go as far as Richardson had wished.
"There's just no shortage of jobs being offered to those top students in computer science," he said. "They are highly sought after."
I'm not an IT guy and perhaps finding people trained here with "critical thinking" skills is difficult. I worked in Big Pharma on the R&D side for 40 years and have personally seen many highly skilled clinical scientists loose their jobs to out sourcing. Many of my close friends some with MDs were replaced by foreign physicians who can do research but cannot practice here simply because they can hire them at a much lower salary. I have witnessed an entire in-house pharmacovigilence department completey outsourced to India. Then we wonder why so many "wonder drugs" are being withdrawn from the market due to unforeseen safety concerns.
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Why don't you visit a school instead of lipping off about them? When I say visit, stay for a day and see the ins and outs. Maybe you could volunteer and be there for many days. See what walks through the doors. The educators have to work with EVERYONE that comes in those doors! They don't get to pick and choose like businesses pick and choose their product. Unfortunately, most students come from broken families, others go home to an empty house because the parents are working odd shifts. A ridiculous amount of drug and alcohol problems, sexual abuse, poverty, students with cognitive problems, learning disabilities, physical impairments, lack of discipline, and disrespect for the profession itself because people like you spout off and you really don't have any idea what they are talking about. By the way, all of those things have to be taken into consideration before teachers can begin teaching their full school day. All lesson plans must meet the needs of all the varied abilities in the classroom. They teach the full day, but then teachers need to find the time to prepare their new innovative lessons, incorporate technology into their teaching, teach the common core, correct and revise homework, purchase additional educational materials with money out of their own pockets, runoff papers that they will need for the next day, respond to parent emails and phone calls once their school day is over. This is a short list of what they really do, believe me, there is way more! The really interesting part is that almost every parent has a different expectation for their child. Many parents have attitudes (like yourself) that are not realistic or true. That forms a disrespect for the profession. One last thing. Teachers work very long hours. In the current teaching profession, teachers must update their educational license every five years. They must go back to school and get six credits to maintain their license. They pay for these credits, and guess when they do this......in the summer. Yeah, the UNPAID summer vacations! It's funny. Construction workers get unemployment benefits when they can't work during the winter, but when teachers can't work in the summer people, like yourself, think it is great to be unemployed for them. "YOU GET YOUR SUMMERS OFF." Would you like your summers off if you were unpaid? For most teachers (you can always find exceptions which I'm sure you would try) summers are spent on district initiatives, getting trained on new curriculum, nonviolent crisis intervention, technology training and much, much more. Most of this is done without getting paid anything!
The bottom line is, the issue isn't our schools, but the lack of parenting in the home. Fifty years ago, we didn't have such a high divorce rate. We didn't have parents coming to the defense of their kids when they got in trouble. Society looked up to our educators and therefore students had a great deal of respect. It's so easy to blame the public schools.Go ahead! Unfortunately, you and so many others that haven't spent time in our schools love to point fingers. I dare you to spend time in our schools and see what these teachers do on a day to day basis. If you would, you wouldn't slam their profession. Most are still what is right in our society.
By the way, who are the "union thugs"? The kindergarten teacher? The art teacher? The fifth grade teacher? Try to step out of yourself and worry about something that you actually understand.
+1000
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I know many people who flourish, demand excellence of themselves, and live lives rich in experience.
They just don't find the need to constantly tell everyone about it.
But.... I thought narcissism was a positive character attribute. Seems to be #1 on Keefe's list - just read his posts and you too will know how great he is.
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My wife also a teacher (well, a speech pathologist) in the Bridgeport school system. She is on the Bridgeport Teacher's contract and she gets paid throughout the summer (26 payments/year), except the checks are a little higher because the union dues are not taken out during the summer, but no balloon payment.
We are very familiar with the public schools. I sent my kid to a Catholic High School, where the kids all do much better than the public high schools, despite the fact that the facilities are not as good and the teachers are less well paid, etc. I have always said that what you are paying for mostly in a Catholic High School in CT is not religious training, though you get that, not better teachers, not better facilities, not better class sizes, etc. You are paying for better classmates and thus a better learning environment.
You hit the nail on the head!! The problem with public education is that it is public. They have to take everyone - learning disabilities, handicapped, gang members, etc., etc. All of that affects what can be taught and the speed at which it can be taught.
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Hmmm....A thread on a suspension of an MU recruit evolves (devolves) into a commentary of 80's and 90's music, our educational system (and the politics associated with it) and union power.
Time for the Superbar?
Maybe we should add that Buzz can't recruit a "big" ;D
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I'm not an IT guy and perhaps finding people trained here with "critical thinking" skills is difficult. I worked in Big Pharma on the R&D side for 40 years and have personally seen many highly skilled clinical scientists loose their jobs to out sourcing. Many of my close friends some with MDs were replaced by foreign physicians who can do research but cannot practice here simply because they can hire them at a much lower salary. I have witnessed an entire in-house pharmacovigilence department completey outsourced to India. Then we wonder why so many "wonder drugs" are being withdrawn from the market due to unforeseen safety concerns.
The key driver in running trials offshore had nothing to do with economics. We did a JV between GE Capital, Quintiles, Sun Microsystems, Harvard University/Harvard Care Group, and Singtel/Temasek Holdings to bring ethical Clinical Trial infrastructure to Asia. The issue was that regulatory jurisdictions were no longer accepting USFDA approvals as relevant to the demographics of their statistical samples/patient populations. The opportunity was not to run trials on the cheap but to establish ethically-based discovery and development in other parts of the world.
Our Chief Ethicist was A. G. Breitenstein, who authored the federal Hipaa legislation for Kennedy. A.G.'s contributions were essential for the very reasons you mention - the validity issue with trials run in India and China. Too many trials run in those countries secured data lock in less than a year. We brought world-class clinical trial infrastructure to Asia so that Trials could be run for Big Pharma with the integrity and confidence that investigation on human subjects demands. But the point of running trials off-shore had nothing to do with USFDA regulatory approvals. The creation of parallel investigations in Asia was for the simple fact that those jurisdictions were demanding that Trials be run on statistical samples more representative of their patient populations.
I think that a lot of the down sizing within Big Pharma in-house research has far more to do with industry consolidation and litigation-related issues than outsourcing primary and secondary level research to India. And as you know, the best investigations run parallel studies to expand sample diversity and all study requires peer review before any molecule goes into a human subject.
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You hit the nail on the head!! The problem with public education is that it is public. They have to take everyone - learning disabilities, handicapped, gang members, etc., etc. All of that affects what can be taught and the speed at which it can be taught.
Not to mention recent immigrants who arrive in this country not knowing the language and being poorly prepared for school. Then we give those kids standardized tests and punish their schools when they fare poorly on them.
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and I thought this thread was bad when we wereactually still discussing Malek Harris ::)
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+1000
It figures you would endorse that unintelligible rant...
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Maybe we should add that Buzz can't recruit a "big" ;D
At least that would be more on topic, and would also generate numerous name calling posts toward anybody that might agree with that. That should please those posters.
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It figures you would endorse that unintelligible rant...
And you have officially become the first on my "ignore" list...
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+1000
agreed. well said. Its easy to dump on the public school teachers, the NEA, those who design the curriculum, etc and to ignore the often difficult social realities that really shape our public schools today...
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agreed. well said. Its easy to dump on the public school teachers, the NEA, those who design the curriculum, etc and to ignore the often difficult social realities that really shape our public schools today...
Yup, you want to ignore the inequalities they face their whole life and then expect it to be made up in the 7 hours they spend with a teacher.
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How did this morph from Malek Harris to education?
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When the conversation slid from what he did to the Code of conduct at the school he attends. Predictable hilarity ensued.
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When the conversation slid from what he did to the Code of conduct at the school he attends. Predictable hilarity ensued.
Free Malek Harris!!
Free my ninja Lil Row
Free my homie Lil Keek
Free Ron Ron
Free OJ
Free Sneaky Pete
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Free Malek Harris!!
Free my ninja Lil Row
Free my homie Lil Keek
Free Ron Ron
Free OJ
Free Sneaky Pete
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92KFhrIrgyY
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What if you got paid not to fish?
Makes for an angry society wondering WTF they are doing fishing for others getting paid not to. Bad formula. What could possibly go wrong. ::)
Are you talking agricultural price supports? i.e., people being paid by the federal government not to grow food.
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I don't even know what the posts on this last page are talking about, so I figure no more good can come from this thread.