MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: willie warrior on July 07, 2013, 09:54:05 AM
-
You don't think Pitino has a great reputation? You're nuts.
You may not like him, but recruits do...former players do...media does...other coaches seem to...
Actually, this sentiment fits right in with the culture of today. No morality, anything goes, contracts do not mean anything, and the ends justify the means.
-
Actually, this sentiment fits right in with the culture of today. No morality, anything goes, contracts do not mean anything, and the ends justify the means.
You are pretty naive if you think the "culture of today" is substantively different than previously.
-
You are pretty naive if you think the "culture of today" is substantively different than previously.
Depends how far back you go. The culture of the 1950's is radically different than today.
-
Depends how far back you go. The culture of the 1950's is radically different than today.
If different ways sure. I mean Adolph Rupp may not have slept around on his wife (and I have no idea if that is actually the case), but he was explicit racist and a society where a good number of people didn't have a problem with that.
-
Depends how far back you go. The culture of the 1950's is radically different than today.
Sports figures were paragons of virtue in the 1950s. Like Mickey Mantle, for example.
-
If different ways sure. I mean Adolph Rupp may not have slept around on his wife (and I have no idea if that is actually the case), but he was explicit racist and a society where a good number of people didn't have a problem with that.
It's like Godwin's law, whenever someone mentions the 1950's, or times of the past the inevitable racism examples come out. That, or women's liberation. When people mention those times, it doesn't mean they are endorsing racism or anything of that nature, but that's where people go with this stuff. The 1950's weren't perfect, nor is anyone saying it was. A different time to be sure, however.
I was referencing more in terms of society in general. Rule of law. Contracts followed. Crime. Neighborly. Sense of honor. Divorce rates, single mother explosion, poverty, etc. These are the things I hear often when talking to people that were alive during that era. The Golden Age of America after WWII, the 1950's and early 1960's. GDP #1 per capita in the 1950's...today it is #13. Land of opportunity. 70% of American adults were married...today it is 48%. Less religious, less respectful. 13 million manufacturing jobs in the 1950's...in 2012 12 million.
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
-
Sports figures were paragons of virtue in the 1950s. Like Mickey Mantle, for example.
One can find examples of anything you want. I'm going off of what the oral and written histories say, what family members say, what colleagues that lived during that time period say....listening to Sandy Koufax, for example, talk about the times. Maybe in the 1950's there were a bunch of murders going around involving athletes, or athletes not abiding by contracts, or perhaps athletes taking PEDs and steroids (yes, I'm aware they would take stimulants in the 1960's to help stay awake).
But yes, one can always find examples on both sides...there were certainly scandals, point shaving and such. No one ever said it was perfect. The question is whether it was better. In many areas, yes. In some areas, no. IMO.
-
It's like Godwin's law, whenever someone mentions the 1950's, or times of the past the inevitable racism examples come out. That, or women's liberation. When people mention those times, it doesn't mean they are endorsing racism or anything of that nature, but that's where people go with this stuff. The 1950's weren't perfect, nor is anyone saying it was. A different time to be sure, however.
I was referencing more in terms of society in general. Rule of law. Contracts followed. Crime. Neighborly. Sense of honor. Divorce rates, single mother explosion, poverty, etc. These are the things I hear often when talking to people that were alive during that era. The Golden Age of America after WWII, the 1950's and early 1960's. GDP #1 per capita in the 1950's...today it is #13. Land of opportunity. 70% of American adults were married...today it is 48%. Less religious, less respectful. 13 million manufacturing jobs in the 1950's...in 2012 12 million.
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
91% tax bracket, corporate loyalty, warnings against the military industrial complex, tariffs on imported goods, lots of unions. Love it. Bring it back.
-
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
Did you like grow up in a perfect subdivision or just watch sandlot too much? Cause there were horrendous horrendous places back then too (generally immigrant neighborhoods) and the mob had a much much larger presence in those days.
-
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
Someone's been watching too many episodes of 'Leave it to Beaver'. In reality, you aren't much less safe today than in the 1950s. Fact is, you're much, much less likely to be the victim of a violent crime today than at any time in the last 40 years.
We only think the world is a more dangerous place because we've got nimrods like Nancy Grace and Geraldo Rivera (and cable news in general) screaming at us from our TVs about how scary the world is.
The world has always been scary, but there are few (if any) times in human history it's been less scary.
National homicide rate:
1950 = 4.6 per 100,000
1960 = 5.1 per 100,000
1970 = 7.9 per 100,000
1980 = 10.2 per 100,000
1990 = 9.4 per 100,000
2011 = 4.7 per 100,000
-
The world has always been scary, but there are few (if any) times in human history it's been less scary.
National homicide rate:
1950 = 4.6 per 100,000
1960 = 5.1 per 100,000
1970 = 7.9 per 100,000
1980 = 10.2 per 100,000
1990 = 9.4 per 100,000
2011 = 4.7 per 100,000
Here here! I live in Chicago (the city) and I am always amazed about people going on and on about the crime. Where were these people when I lived here in the 70's and 80's when things were really bad?
And then fear-ists say that homicides are down because of the medical field (presumably saving potential deaths). Nearly every track-able crime is down in Chicago, per capita, since the 70/80's, but they just refuse to believe it.
This is an example where the statistics are actually the truth and other forms (anecdotal, media, etc.) are actually giving false impressions.
-
Chico, you need to sit down and have your parents and grandparents tell you stories about life in the 50's and 60's. You are longing for an ideal that never existed. I won't bore you with my dad's stories, except to say that in today's world, he would be labeled a problem for his behavior as a youth and that my parents lied to me for 25 years (or up until their divorce) about what year they got married, in order to protect me from the fact that I arrived 7 months after the nuptials. Which were thrown together in a month. When mom was still 20.
-
Completely sidestepping the irony of a former soccer player, who has made his career with Dish Network, sitting either in his air-conditioned home or out somewhere on his really cool laptop/PDA/I-something lamenting on an internet message board about how good the old days were.
-
It's like Godwin's law, whenever someone mentions the 1950's, or times of the past the inevitable racism examples come out. That, or women's liberation. When people mention those times, it doesn't mean they are endorsing racism or anything of that nature, but that's where people go with this stuff. The 1950's weren't perfect, nor is anyone saying it was. A different time to be sure, however.
I was referencing more in terms of society in general. Rule of law. Contracts followed. Crime. Neighborly. Sense of honor. Divorce rates, single mother explosion, poverty, etc. These are the things I hear often when talking to people that were alive during that era. The Golden Age of America after WWII, the 1950's and early 1960's. GDP #1 per capita in the 1950's...today it is #13. Land of opportunity. 70% of American adults were married...today it is 48%. Less religious, less respectful. 13 million manufacturing jobs in the 1950's...in 2012 12 million.
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
Right...because overt, legalized racism was just a little thing that people always make too big a deal over.
-
Wtf happened in here?
-
Someone's been watching too many episodes of 'Leave it to Beaver'. In reality, you aren't much less safe today than in the 1950s. Fact is, you're much, much less likely to be the victim of a violent crime today than at any time in the last 40 years.
We only think the world is a more dangerous place because we've got nimrods like Nancy Grace and Geraldo Rivera (and cable news in general) screaming at us from our TVs about how scary the world is.
The world has always been scary, but there are few (if any) times in human history it's been less scary.
National homicide rate:
1950 = 4.6 per 100,000
1960 = 5.1 per 100,000
1970 = 7.9 per 100,000
1980 = 10.2 per 100,000
1990 = 9.4 per 100,000
2011 = 4.7 per 100,000
Many believe that the 1950's was seminal in determining the America of this century. One of the best treatises on the cultural, economic, and political impact of that decade on contemporary America is David Halberstam's "The Fifties."
Halberstam articulates a compelling case for the effect of the Fifties on who and what we are as a society today. Much of how the world views us is due to the cultural, financial, and political imperialism born during the Eisenhower era. I highly recommend this book (as I do anything authored by Halberstam; his observation and commentary are stunning for their insight.)
-
Completely sidestepping the irony of a former soccer player, who has made his career with Dish Network, sitting either in his air-conditioned home or out somewhere on his really cool laptop/PDA/I-something lamenting on an internet message board about how good the old days were.
I mean really....good old days that he never actually lived through.
-
Someone's been watching too many episodes of 'Leave it to Beaver'. In reality, you aren't much less safe today than in the 1950s. Fact is, you're much, much less likely to be the victim of a violent crime today than at any time in the last 40 years.
We only think the world is a more dangerous place because we've got nimrods like Nancy Grace and Geraldo Rivera (and cable news in general) screaming at us from our TVs about how scary the world is.
The world has always been scary, but there are few (if any) times in human history it's been less scary.
National homicide rate:
1950 = 4.6 per 100,000
1960 = 5.1 per 100,000
1970 = 7.9 per 100,000
1980 = 10.2 per 100,000
1990 = 9.4 per 100,000
2011 = 4.7 per 100,000
No, don't watch Leave it to Beaver.
In one part of your paragraph you say violent crime is lower than in the 1950's, then you say last 40 years, but you post homicide rates, which are not in totality what is used for violent crime. You are conveniently parsing one part of violent crime (murder) to suggest violent crime is down. It's not down since the 1950's and 1960's, far from it.
My data is from the Bureau of Justice Statistics and the FBI and they don't claim what you claim....the official US gov't holders of crime statistics.
The violent crime rate in 1960 was 160.9 (per 100,000 citizens. In 2012 it was 386.3. I fail to see how that is LOWER.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=daaSearch/Crime/State/StateCrime.cfm
In fact, the last time it was below 200 was 1964...it hasn't sniffed even below 375 since 1970.
That's just violent crime, which is defined by Murder, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault by the FBI. So if you want to define homicide as violent crime as if that is the only definition, you would be wrong and I suggest you use what the FBI uses.
But for giggles, let's just look at just the murder rate in the 1950's....2011 it is 4.7 per 100,000. In 1950, it was 4.6. In 1951, it was 4.4, 1952 it was 4.6, 1953 it was 4.5, 1954 it was 4.2, 1955 it was 4.1, 1956 it was 4.1, 1957 it was 4.0
Now let's look at property crime rates, non violent crime.
1960...1,726.3 per 100,000
2011...2,908.7 per 100,000
Again, not safer. 1950's, even better numbers than 1960's.
Sorry, you're just flat wrong on this one. The data is there. Have at it, but you're just flat wrong....you are one of the best posters here Pakuni, but on this one you don't have the data to back it up....humorous Leave it to Beaver comment or not. The data is the data.
I don't appreciate the folks here crapping on me for "not living in that era", but then ignoring those that did and who said it was better and the data proves it 100%.
-
Completely sidestepping the irony of a former soccer player, who has made his career with Dish Network, sitting either in his air-conditioned home or out somewhere on his really cool laptop/PDA/I-something lamenting on an internet message board about how good the old days were.
Or the irony that I have not spent a day of my life working for Dish Network, but apparently communicating with people that lived during that time (and the data to back up what they are saying) should be ignored...now that's irony.
-
I mean really....good old days that he never actually lived through.
And thus we shouldn't talk to our elders, our parents, our colleagues who did live through them and talk of a better society, less violent society, more respectful society because we didn't live through it. Interesting.
-
Did you like grow up in a perfect subdivision or just watch sandlot too much? Cause there were horrendous horrendous places back then too (generally immigrant neighborhoods) and the mob had a much much larger presence in those days.
I actually lived in the 3rd world in Peru and Panama for part of my childhood...I saw some of the poorest areas in the world. On the flip side, I also spent a good chunk in Thousand Oaks, CA which for many years was voted the safest city of its size in the United States. I've seen both sides.
In 1989, my sister's boyfriend was murdered in Tucson, AZ where she was a student at U of A. He got into drugs, didn't pay the right people and he was shot in the back of the head. So yes, I've seen all sides of it.
I believe I clearly said that it wasn't perfect back then, no time era is. I also said, clearly, that people that are FROM that era that I speak with uniformly say it was better back then in terms of society in general. More respect, deeper faith in God, people were married, drug abuse almost unheard of, single mothers almost unheard of, etc, etc. Far from perfect, but better. That is a distinction. No one is saying perfection, far from it. What we have today, my God have mercy on our souls.
-
And thus we shouldn't talk to our elders, our parents, our colleagues who did live through them and talk of a better society, less violent society, more respectful society because we didn't live through it. Interesting.
Yeah...I'm sure they had a good grasp on how society at large was back then. My guess is that none of your "elders, parents or colleagues" were poor, minorities or homosexual.
-
So...how about the Celtics new coach?
-
Yeah...I'm sure they had a good grasp on how society at large was back then. My guess is that none of your "elders, parents or colleagues" were poor, minorities or homosexual.
Good grief. So then we should burn all the history books out there written by non minorities, non gays and non poor as well, because they can't possibly be scholarly or be able to share life's experiences.
These people were women, in an age where some would say women were not allowed the freedoms they are today. Do their opinions count? My mother in law, who died a few years ago, educated as a nurse...smart lady. Her opinions on society as a woman don't count?
Please. Their life experiences are not wholly encompassing just as no one else's is either. God forbid they should have an opinion that life and society was better, safer (the data backs it up) only to be questioned for it by someone here that DIDN'T LIVE during that era but has the temerity to blast others here for also not living in that era. WOW...talk about irony.
-
Wow, THAT was a hijacked thread.
-
Oh, and....in before the lock. ;)
-
Good grief. So then we should burn all the history books out there written by non minorities, non gays and non poor as well, because they can't possibly be scholarly or be able to share life's experiences.
Wow. Now your "elders, parents and colleagues" are scholarly historians. Who knew??
These people were women, in an age where some would say women were not allowed the freedoms they are today. Do their opinions count? My mother in law, who died a few years ago, educated as a nurse...smart lady. Her opinions on society as a woman don't count?
Please. Their life experiences are not wholly encompassing just as no one else's is either. God forbid they should have an opinion that life and society was better, safer (the data backs it up) only to be questioned for it by someone here that DIDN'T LIVE during that era but has the temerity to blast others here for also not living in that era. WOW...talk about irony.
Ah there we go. You finally said it..."opinion." Yet you spent posts writing it off as fact.
The fact is that your "elders, parents and colleagues" lived in only a slice of what American society was in the 50s, and you didn't seem to want to acknowledge that.
-
So...how about the Celtics new coach?
I hope he does well. The NBA game is a lot different than the college game. Some great interviews today on just how different they are that I listened to in the car while taking my son up to camp. Interviewed Pitino, Jay Wright, Reggie Theus, etc....much different game, different terminology, different plays and different rules. Theus was saying it was a huge adjustment for him...Pitino said the same.
-
Wtf happened in here?
Best post award.
-
No, don't watch Leave it to Beaver.
In one part of your paragraph you say violent crime is lower than in the 1950's,
Ummm .... where exactly did I say that? You spend an awful lot of time here disproving a point I never made.
-
The 1% bickering is so entertaining!
I will say this: It seems some of you would poo-poo the idea that the breakdown of the "traditional..." "normal family" is not a big deal at all. No real consequences whatsoever.
I'd say you're nuts.
Growing up there was plenty of crime; yes, where I lived the murder rates have been far higher than they are currently. But I'll tell you what.. walking around the lake, a shopping mall, down the block in your own neighborhood.. the lack of respect and 'neighborly' folks is astounding. It's a very different world.
There will always be "bad" or evil people committing awful crimes. But this nation is creating many lazy jerks with next to nothing to offer to society.
peace in the middle east yo
-
I will say this: It seems some of you would poo-poo the idea that the breakdown of the "traditional..." "normal family" is not a big deal at all. No real consequences whatsoever.
I'd say you're nuts.
You missed a stage. We went from the traditional muti-generational household in 1945 to the Nuclear Family of the 1950's to the Single Mother Household of the 1980's.
-
Wow. Now your "elders, parents and colleagues" are scholarly historians. Who knew??
Ah there we go. You finally said it..."opinion." Yet you spent posts writing it off as fact.
The fact is that your "elders, parents and colleagues" lived in only a slice of what American society was in the 50s, and you didn't seem to want to acknowledge that.
Not what I said Sultan....never called them historians. I said it was my opinion earlier...also said it wasn't perfect or the ultimate, just better than what we have in my opinion (said that earlier).....you've had trouble reading the last few days in these threads (just like when you said no one said anything about age limitations when clearly someone had). It's the Summer, it's ok to be lazy in the summer I suppose.
IMO = IN MY OPINION...said it LONG ago. Please, read. Thanks.
"But yes, one can always find examples on both sides...there were certainly scandals, point shaving and such. No one ever said it was perfect. The question is whether it was better. In many areas, yes. In some areas, no. IMO."
-
Ummm .... where exactly did I say that? You spend an awful lot of time here disproving a point I never made.
"Fact is, you're much, much less likely to be the victim of a violent crime today than at any time in the last 40 years."
This is factually incorrect. You are claiming violent crime is lower today than 40 years ago and using homicide numbers to back it up. The FBI says this is false...that's what I was pointing out. Violent crime was less in the 1950's and 1960's than today, unlike what you said. Violent crime is defined as homicide, rape, burglary, aggravated assault....not just homicide. Non violent crime ALSO worse now than 40 years ago.
-
The 1% bickering is so entertaining!
I will say this: It seems some of you would poo-poo the idea that the breakdown of the "traditional..." "normal family" is not a big deal at all. No real consequences whatsoever.
I'd say you're nuts.
Growing up there was plenty of crime; yes, where I lived the murder rates have been far higher than they are currently. But I'll tell you what.. walking around the lake, a shopping mall, down the block in your own neighborhood.. the lack of respect and 'neighborly' folks is astounding. It's a very different world.
There will always be "bad" or evil people committing awful crimes. But this nation is creating many lazy jerks with next to nothing to offer to society.
peace in the middle east yo
Of course there are consequences, we've seen it for the last few decades and it will continue to be a problem in the form of resources (having to fund people to pay them to stay out of trouble), cyclical behaviors (how many kids growing up in that scenario repeat the actions of their "parents"), etc. No brainer and the data is there in this area as well. The amount of public treasure we now pay out in these areas is astronomical.
And we reward the behavior. Why? Some will tell you off the record it is to keep folks from rioting and causing civil unrest, making crime worse, etc. So those doing it right, your reward is to pay the folks doing it wrong so they don't make society worse. What a deal. Progressive.
-
Ah, those halcyon days of the Traditional Family...you can smell the gentility, civility, decorum, and propriety of our suburban sodbuster forebearers...
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoO_WYE6XhHeVia4vb96PJdOgub2cNiMb_4q0w_uzWN_77J4EzOg)
(http://c.ancestry.com/email/newsletters/amu/012010/50_family.jpg)
(http://www.seattlemet.com/data/publicola-assets/2012/04/1950s_family_life.jpg)
(http://doug-stern.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tv-watching.jpg)
(http://www.ladue63.com/bb/harmon_family_1950s.jpg)
-
Or the irony that I have not spent a day of my life working for Dish Network, but apparently communicating with people that lived during that time (and the data to back up what they are saying) should be ignored...now that's irony.
Dish, Direct TV, ATT, Xfinity.....McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's....
-
Not what I said Sultan....never called them historians. I said it was my opinion earlier...also said it wasn't perfect or the ultimate, just better than what we have in my opinion (said that earlier).....you've had trouble reading the last few days in these threads (just like when you said no one said anything about age limitations when clearly someone had). It's the Summer, it's ok to be lazy in the summer I suppose.
IMO = IN MY OPINION...said it LONG ago. Please, read. Thanks.
"But yes, one can always find examples on both sides...there were certainly scandals, point shaving and such. No one ever said it was perfect. The question is whether it was better. In many areas, yes. In some areas, no. IMO."
That wasn't in the thread of posts between the two of us....unless you went back and edited back in.
-
The 1% bickering is so entertaining!
I will say this: It seems some of you would poo-poo the idea that the breakdown of the "traditional..." "normal family" is not a big deal at all. No real consequences whatsoever.
I'd say you're nuts.
I agree with you completely. By and large I think the more "successful" children come from a household with two parents who love one another.
-
I always love the Keefe photo montages.
Nothing like mom smoking with the family while they crowd around TV watching Howdy Doody.
-
"Fact is, you're much, much less likely to be the victim of a violent crime today than at any time in the last 40 years."
This is factually incorrect. You are claiming violent crime is lower today than 40 years ago and using homicide numbers to back it up. The FBI says this is false...that's what I was pointing out. Violent crime was less in the 1950's and 1960's than today, unlike what you said. Violent crime is defined as homicide, rape, burglary, aggravated assault....not just homicide. Non violent crime ALSO worse now than 40 years ago.
No, Chico's, it's not factually incorrect.
The violent crime rate in 2011 was 386.3 per 100,000.
That's the lowest it's been since 1970, when it was 363.5. That, my exceptional math skills tell me, was 40+ years ago.
Thus, my statement is completely accurate.
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Crime/State/StateCrime.cfm
-
#1 Everybody always things "stuff" was better "before". Cars, music, food, people, girls, MU's campus, bars, civility, smoking, etc.
#2 Sometimes people are right, sometimes they are wrong about "stuff" and "before".
-
I always love the Keefe photo montages.
Nothing like mom smoking with the family while they crowd around TV watching Howdy Doody.
And the dad is wearing a suit in every picture.
-
And the dad is wearing a suit in every picture.
Next, dad will take the tie and jacket off and go and mow the lawn.
-
In shorts and black socks, while smoking a pipe.
-
We are all a product of our environments. Some have lived in areas of immense poverty or immense wealth....some have experienced both. Others have seen gradual changes for the better or the worse. Ultimately, as stated almost from the beginning, these experiences are personal and form one's opinion.
My mom originally from the Detroit area, but spent most of her child in Ohio while her step dad continued to live in Detroit). Now, imagine a woman that was originally from Detroit in the 1940's and 1950's, when the city was booming...her dad continuing to work there into the 1960's to what Detroit became. She's going to have a benchmark viewpoint and say Detroit is a lot worse than what it was. You can disagree with her, you can make fun of her, say she isn't a historian, bring in other stuff that has no bearing whatsoever, but that is her experience. She is not wrong to have that opinion based on her experience.
We can look at the experience my wife and I have had in California. One of many reasons why middle class Californians have left in droves to Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado in the last 15 years....it's hard to even recognize California anymore. What once was a low tax, stellar education (U of Cal system), booming economy, conservative state has become highest tax state in the land, educational abyss, illegal immigration fiasco, and one of the worst states for business. What was once the beacon of all states, a place that was a model has become a butt of jokes and an example of massive public policy failure. Those are our experiences and our opinions are shaped by our experiences. Others may view it entirely different...some grab on to the social changes here in the state as reasons to highlight it as the most wonderful place in the world. To each their own.
At the end of the day, we will all be by products of our experiences. Some may think things are better, others may not. In some ways they are and in others they are not..that is my opinion. Opinions are opinions....and then there is the data (which has it's own issues with interpretations, etc). To each their own...I'm going with the folks that I engage with that are friends, family, colleagues, etc that feel we have lost our way. I'm also going on my own experiences living in this state, in particular, and the erosion that we have seen. It's heartbreaking in many ways.
-
And thus we shouldn't talk to our elders, our parents, our colleagues who did live through them and talk of a better society, less violent society, more respectful society because we didn't live through it. Interesting.
never mind trying to rationalize with Skink. There is none. His point is that the culture is no worse than in the past, drawing in a false proposition about racism in the past. Guess what? There is more racism now, except it is reverse racism. He has not looked around and observed how the cesspool has grown--no morality, no honesty, lying is the rule of the day, and now we are seeing that legality is a thing of the past in many instances. But hey, we can excuse it because "its always been that way" (we just did not realize it)
-
I'm not doubting your friends and families experiences, and those undoubtedly shape their opinions. But when you use those opinions to declare the 1950s and early 60s "The Golden Age of America," without acknowledging that that era certainly wasn't "Golden" to vast swaths of American society, it really is a poor declaration.
And then you derisively say that my bringing up racism was like "Godwin's Law," when it was something that did affect a huge portion of our society, well what am I supposed to think?
The best you can say is that it might have been "The Golden Age" for white, middle-class America. But I know a number of white, middle-class Americans from that era that would even disagree with that statement.
-
The good old days are, by definition, YOUR good old days. They WERE special, idyllic, etc., especially through the softening lens of retrospection. Happy and well adjusted people should look back on them fondly. But - and it's a very big but - regardless of how one feels about society's ills there is NO DOUBT that the world in which my children will raise their children is a much more tolerant, fair and accepting world than the one I was raised in. Feel free to pick things to be (sometimes fairly) bitter about, but these are the best of days.
-
That wasn't in the thread of posts between the two of us....unless you went back and edited back in.
I didn't edit anything....this is a message board, multiple conversations going on at one time. I said in my opinion in this thread.
-
#1 Everybody always things "stuff" was better "before". Cars, music, food, people, girls, MU's campus, bars, civility, smoking, etc.
#2 Sometimes people are right, sometimes they are wrong about "stuff" and "before".
LOL. Very true, some things are nostalgic and carry sentimental value to folks as well.
-
Pakuni...I owe you an apology. The whole time I was saying the 50's and 60's and then I see you said in the last 40 years, which would be the 70's on. You correct that since the 1970's and early 80's, things have gotten better in violent crime and property crimes....the 1950's & 1960's still much better, but I needed to read your post more carefully (especially in light of others here not reading mine very carefully).
In the last 40 years, things are better. If anything, that shows the source point to be so crucial. For my parents, grandparents, etc....things are much worse based on their benchmark. For those that think things are better now, if you were around in the 1970's then you would be right because things were so bad in the 1970's.
Benchmark is important. Sorry for not taking the time to read your "last 40 years" comment better than I did.
-
What are you talking about the 70s were awesome. The Grateful Dead were on fire and MU hoops was winning, doesn't get much better than that.
-
There's that Andy Bernard from The Office finale quote, "I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them."
-
Remember the Song "These are the Good Old Days!"
Sometimes they are
-
No, don't watch Leave it to Beaver.
In one part of your paragraph you say violent crime is lower than in the 1950's, then you say last 40 years, but you post homicide rates, which are not in totality what is used for violent crime. You are conveniently parsing one part of violent crime (murder) to suggest violent crime is down. It's not down since the 1950's and 1960's, far from it.
My data is from the Bureau of Justice Statistics and the FBI and they don't claim what you claim....the official US gov't holders of crime statistics.
The violent crime rate in 1960 was 160.9 (per 100,000 citizens. In 2012 it was 386.3. I fail to see how that is LOWER.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=daaSearch/Crime/State/StateCrime.cfm
In fact, the last time it was below 200 was 1964...it hasn't sniffed even below 375 since 1970.
That's just violent crime, which is defined by Murder, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault by the FBI. So if you want to define homicide as violent crime as if that is the only definition, you would be wrong and I suggest you use what the FBI uses.
But for giggles, let's just look at just the murder rate in the 1950's....2011 it is 4.7 per 100,000. In 1950, it was 4.6. In 1951, it was 4.4, 1952 it was 4.6, 1953 it was 4.5, 1954 it was 4.2, 1955 it was 4.1, 1956 it was 4.1, 1957 it was 4.0
Now let's look at property crime rates, non violent crime.
1960...1,726.3 per 100,000
2011...2,908.7 per 100,000
Again, not safer. 1950's, even better numbers than 1960's.
Sorry, you're just flat wrong on this one. The data is there. Have at it, but you're just flat wrong....you are one of the best posters here Pakuni, but on this one you don't have the data to back it up....humorous Leave it to Beaver comment or not. The data is the data.
I don't appreciate the folks here crapping on me for "not living in that era", but then ignoring those that did and who said it was better and the data proves it 100%.
Something you fail to take into account is domestic violence, which largely wasn't even considered a crime in the 1950s, and at the very least was generally unreported (pretty telling of the culture of the times, if you ask me). Things like forcible rape were surely largely unreported as well due to the power of women in society.
Chico, the bottom line is you are simplifying things way too much. You are failing to even recognize the migration patterns that took place in the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1950s, African Americans were still largely in the south, forced to work in traditional jobs like sharecropping, service jobs, and other low-wage positions that kept them largely out of contact with urban whites. This of course all changed with the great migration, but even then, cities were very segregated. Surely you aren't suggesting we return to those times?
EDIT: Hope people don't read this as me stating that African Americans moving into cities were somehow solely responsible for a rise in crime. My point is that ethnic groups in general were largely segregated (even white ethnic groups were still largely in the neighborhood of their country of origin). The move to a pluralistic society is going to have bumps in the road, but that doesn't mean the "good old days" were better.
It's also pretty laughable that you want to remove racism from discussions of the 1950s since race and racism permeated those times. It's like trying to remove indulgences from the Protestant Reformation.
-
Pakuni...I owe you an apology.
No worries.
-
Something you fail to take into account is domestic violence, which largely wasn't even considered a crime in the 1950s, and at the very least was generally unreported (pretty telling of the culture of the times, if you ask me).
Chico, the bottom line is you are simplifying things way too much. You are failing to even recognize the migration patterns that took place in the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1950s, African Americans were still largely in the south, worked in traditional jobs like sharecropping that kept them largely out of contact with urban whites. This of course all changed with the great migration, but even then, cities were very segregated. Surely you aren't suggesting we return to those times?
EDIT: Hope people don't read this as me stating that African Americans moving into cities were somehow solely responsible for a rise in crime. My point is that ethnic groups in general were largely segregated (even white ethnic groups were still largely in the neighborhood of their country of origin). The move to a pluralistic society is going to have bumps in the road, but that doesn't mean the "good old days" were better.
The other thing to consider is that it was quite bad to be (insert nationality) in (insert decade) in America.
You can fill in the blanks. Native American, Irish, Italian, Japanese, African, Polish, etc. 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, etc.
So, while it was probably great to be a WASP in 1955 or 1965, it probably wasn't as much fun being a Native American family.
The "good old days" is a matter of perspective.
-
In shorts and black socks, while smoking a pipe.
The evolution of Pipe Smoking in the United States
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5jhvtKJNZ1qfet8co1_500.png)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSn3d9MB7VVyk3odjkK0tHIsnFx56uRczfVolHSRFnP5bg8ogofsw)
(http://www.wikidoc.org/images/5/54/Apothecary_smoking_pipe.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT18dMWBc2y_MCvWeXaXTc9BVgI_P9YxO2C3PTBEk2RieSipKRuZg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQH8l4nC2GX1GBZ3KJOECqBvkS70ZXA0GVti8IUbztDD_Tn-oHCkw)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZjqKabpbb0eyzbHjEE2Vf-M7n0xdQEnThw7gGFZ9qh-NB5TcU)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/Photos/images/i01000/i01345.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB65fJLdf1HZv7dsm5UhbFTSi5EA1YNVtpL4fpasRwFU3hMFlfwQ)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwDb9ROX0lbzKfmq_FGVziU7S4bPcuQGFAA-3U5iwHaNBBmkeDTQ)
(http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/27/2776/9IMTD00Z/novelist-and-script-writer-william-faulkner-smoking-a-pipe-on-the-balcony-of-his-hotel-room.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTD0DIlWB10fqBklaMFc1gz2AvkO9ucMx1tnIyv1--6KkB3yw4Ug)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpy1lwJXJZ1qbxm07o1_400.jpg)
(http://goldenagedames.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/gabe-looking-hot-smoking-pipe.jpg)
(http://www.puff.com/forums/vb/attachments/general-pipe-forum/22071d1226009438-re-your-favorite-pipe-smoking-celeb-l-d-fp9142-hugh-hefner-posters.jpg)
(http://pipesmagazine.com/wp-content/articles/pipes-people-dealing-with-stress/gerald-ford-pipe-smoke.jpg)
(http://i.usatoday.net/life/gallery/2009/l0908_garson_woodstock/pipe.jpg)
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2011/6/15/1308135461976/Californian-hippies-at-a--007.jpg)
(http://www.friendsofcannabis.com/directory/images/stories/b/brooke_shields_davehill77.jpg)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lqyiX01h1qmqha2o1_500.jpg)
(http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Jo_Rivera_girlfriend_bong.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvaCZuKjh6cBbxsa49mTX3pi0sNSnBwwm5EAk-937-q6QAMY8TUNzjz5Q)
-
What are you talking about the 70s were awesome. The Grateful Dead were on fire and MU hoops was winning, doesn't get much better than that.
I lived a good chunk of the 1970's in Central American and South America. When we got back, it was malaise, gas lines, terrible unemployment and inflation, hostages, Vietnam, Watergate, etc. Not a great decade. But MU was good. ;)
-
I lived a good chunk of the 1970's in Central American and South America. When we got back, it was malaise, gas lines, terrible unemployment and inflation, hostages, Vietnam, Watergate, etc. Not a great decade. But MU was good. ;)
How old are you? Are these really your memories or just things you read or heard about? I graduated in 1970, so I was a young man during that decade. All the things you mention happened at some point for some part of the 70s but being young then was not the horrible experience you describe. In fact, my (real life) recollections of that time are pretty much all good.
-
Not to mention that if he spent a "good chunk" of the 1970s in South America, and when he got back he lists stuff that happened in the early part of that decade, it leads me to believe he has a way over-active imagination.
I mean, he is two or three years younger than me, and of the stuff that he listed, gas lines and hostages are really the only thing that I remember affecting my life.
-
Not to mention that if he spent a "good chunk" of the 1970s in South America, and when he got back he lists stuff that happened in the early part of that decade, it leads me to believe he has a way over-active imagination.
I mean, he is two or three years younger than me, and of the stuff that he listed, gas lines and hostages are really the only thing that I remember affecting my life.
Doesn't he blog under Warrior '92 or something like that? If that's the case he spent 20-30% of the decade in diapers and his "memories" of Watergate, inflation, gas lines and high unemployment aren't really his own.
-
I turned 11 in 1980 and while the hostage crisis clearly stands out my recollection of the 70s is more little league baseball, summer vacations "On Golden Pond" in New Hampshire, very long drives to visit in cousins in central Maine and spending a lot of time in ice rinks in Southern New England watching my brother play hockey.
-
Wow that one chick in the gas mask has a blunt going into the bong, very impressive.
-
I turned 11 in 1980 and while the hostage crisis clearly stands out my recollection of the 70s is more little league baseball, summer vacations "On Golden Pond" in New Hampshire, very long drives to visit in cousins in central Maine and spending a lot of time in ice rinks in Southern New England watching my brother play hockey.
Perhaps you didn't mature as quickly as young Chicos?
I'll tell you all what... advancements in technology open up so many additional opportunities for people - and is one of many ways for "poor" people to improve their economic standing, if desired. Not enough have realized it yet and they probably never will.
The point of no return has probably long passed. The divide is such that (too) big government is here to stay. That's why living on an isolated compound is the life for me.
Also, no matter how long and baggy shorts get, they are an improvement over the sickening basketball shorts of the not-so-distant days of yesteryear.
-
Perhaps you didn't mature as quickly as young Chicos?
I'll tell you all what... advancements in technology open up so many additional opportunities for people - and is one of many ways for "poor" people to improve their economic standing, if desired. Not enough have realized it yet and they probably never will.
The point of no return has probably long passed. The divide is such that (too) big government is here to stay. That's why living on an isolated compound is the life for me.
Also, no matter how long and baggy shorts get, they are an improvement over the sickening basketball shorts of the not-so-distant days of yesteryear.
I'm not a history major, so I'm sure somebody can help me on this, but didn't "big government" start with FDR and the "new deal"?
Did people with private sector jobs resent the guys who worked for the CCC back then?
Don't get me wrong, I actually would like a smaller federal government and give the states back some power... but I'm not sure that Big Fed is something that is "new". It has been around since the 40's, right? Dare I say, even in the golden age of the 50's.
-
Don't get me wrong, I actually would like a smaller federal government and give the states back some power... but I'm not sure that Big Fed is something that is "new". It has been around since the 40's, right? Dare I say, even in the golden age of the 50's.
The Golden Age of the 50s was made possible in part by federal programs, such as the GI Bill and the Federal Aid Highway Act.
-
I'm not a history major, so I'm sure somebody can help me on this, but didn't "big government" start with FDR and the "new deal"?
Did people with private sector jobs resent the guys who worked for the CCC back then?
Don't get me wrong, I actually would like a smaller federal government and give the states back some power... but I'm not sure that Big Fed is something that is "new". It has been around since the 40's, right? Dare I say, even in the golden age of the 50's.
I was a history major (and M.A.), and you nailed it. "Big Government" has led to the most prosperous decades of our country's existence, largely due to the military-industrial complex and funding that led to major innovations in science and technology in the 1940s, 50s and 60s (the space race, or semiconductors anyone?), major upgrades in infrastructure (Eisenhower's Interstate system), massive improvements in medicine (courtesy of NIH) and increases in educational achievement (GI Bill).
Now, I'm not saying this is all a good thing. One can make solid arguments against the military-industrial complex. But there's no disputing the fact that America's best economic times were largely funded by the federal government, and the Defense Department in particular.
To answer your question about private sector resentment towards the CCC, there was some, but FDR had massive amounts of political capital to make it happen. In general, the federal programs such as the CCC, TVA, etc. were lauded by both sides of the aisle. Part of this was because there were so little private sector jobs available (1/3 of the country was unemployed), and people could see the value in these programs were providing in upgrading infrastructure. These programs resulted in public school buildings, parks and bridges that everyone in society used. And to be frank, you didn't have things like political talk radio or television that was as divisive and misinforming the public.
-
This is an epic thread. Truly epic.
-
How old are you? Are these really your memories or just things you read or heard about? I graduated in 1970, so I was a young man during that decade. All the things you mention happened at some point for some part of the 70s but being young then was not the horrible experience you describe. In fact, my (real life) recollections of that time are pretty much all good.
I remember Peru vividly, partly because we survived an earthquake that killed massive amounts of people. There was also an attempted coup that happened when we were there and as Americans we had a tank in our neighborhood to help protect westerners...have some great photos of that.
Panama I was too young. Like I said, everyone has their own benchmarks. To me, the 1970's as a kid were fine, for my parents and what they came back to it was not great for many of the reasons I mentioned. Whether it was Nixon, Carter, Vietnam, Watergate, gas lines, hostage crisis, horrific economy, etc.
-
Not to mention that if he spent a "good chunk" of the 1970s in South America, and when he got back he lists stuff that happened in the early part of that decade, it leads me to believe he has a way over-active imagination.
I mean, he is two or three years younger than me, and of the stuff that he listed, gas lines and hostages are really the only thing that I remember affecting my life.
Vietnam ended in 1975. Hostages in 1979. Carter Malaise 1976-1980. Gas lines happened in the early 70's and again in the late 70's (here in California). I think maybe you need to recalculate your historical calendar.
-
I was a history major (and M.A.), and you nailed it. "Big Government" has led to the most prosperous decades of our country's existence, largely due to the military-industrial complex and funding that led to major innovations in science and technology in the 1940s, 50s and 60s (the space race, or semiconductors anyone?), major upgrades in infrastructure (Eisenhower's Interstate system), massive improvements in medicine (courtesy of NIH) and increases in educational achievement (GI Bill).
Now, I'm not saying this is all a good thing. One can make solid arguments against the military-industrial complex. But there's no disputing the fact that America's best economic times were largely funded by the federal government, and the Defense Department in particular.
To answer your question about private sector resentment towards the CCC, there was some, but FDR had massive amounts of political capital to make it happen. In general, the federal programs such as the CCC, TVA, etc. were lauded by both sides of the aisle. Part of this was because there were so little private sector jobs available (1/3 of the country was unemployed), and people could see the value in these programs were providing in upgrading infrastructure. These programs resulted in public school buildings, parks and bridges that everyone in society used. And to be frank, you didn't have things like political talk radio or television that was as divisive and misinforming the public.
Outstanding. Thanks for the insight.
-
Doesn't he blog under Warrior '92 or something like that? If that's the case he spent 20-30% of the decade in diapers and his "memories" of Watergate, inflation, gas lines and high unemployment aren't really his own.
Never said they were "my own", but unless you grew up in a family that wasn't impacted by a bad economy, it does trickle down to the entire family....inflation, unemployment, etc. Gas lines I remember vividly as here in California we had red flag days. You got to go to the pump depending on the last digit on your license plate. Considering the 4 family members I had in Vietnam in 1974 and 1975, I remember that vividly.
We are all in tune with things at different levels. Your 20-30% in diapers is kind of funny. First, I attended MU for five years with 3 majors and a minor...so it took five years to get out. I was born in the 60's. Because I attended school in Panama and Peru, the US system had me start a year later because those schools down there weren't accredited the same way. Good try on the detective work, however. ;)
-
Vietnam ended in 1975. Hostages in 1979. Carter Malaise 1976-1980. Gas lines happened in the early 70's and again in the late 70's (here in California). I think maybe you need to recalculate your historical calendar.
I said you "lists stuff that happened in the earlier part of that decade." I was thinking Watergate and Vietnam specifically.
-
The evolution of Pipe Smoking in the United States
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5jhvtKJNZ1qfet8co1_500.png)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSn3d9MB7VVyk3odjkK0tHIsnFx56uRczfVolHSRFnP5bg8ogofsw)
(http://www.wikidoc.org/images/5/54/Apothecary_smoking_pipe.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT18dMWBc2y_MCvWeXaXTc9BVgI_P9YxO2C3PTBEk2RieSipKRuZg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQH8l4nC2GX1GBZ3KJOECqBvkS70ZXA0GVti8IUbztDD_Tn-oHCkw)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZjqKabpbb0eyzbHjEE2Vf-M7n0xdQEnThw7gGFZ9qh-NB5TcU)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/Photos/images/i01000/i01345.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB65fJLdf1HZv7dsm5UhbFTSi5EA1YNVtpL4fpasRwFU3hMFlfwQ)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwDb9ROX0lbzKfmq_FGVziU7S4bPcuQGFAA-3U5iwHaNBBmkeDTQ)
(http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/27/2776/9IMTD00Z/novelist-and-script-writer-william-faulkner-smoking-a-pipe-on-the-balcony-of-his-hotel-room.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTD0DIlWB10fqBklaMFc1gz2AvkO9ucMx1tnIyv1--6KkB3yw4Ug)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpy1lwJXJZ1qbxm07o1_400.jpg)
(http://goldenagedames.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/gabe-looking-hot-smoking-pipe.jpg)
(http://www.puff.com/forums/vb/attachments/general-pipe-forum/22071d1226009438-re-your-favorite-pipe-smoking-celeb-l-d-fp9142-hugh-hefner-posters.jpg)
(http://pipesmagazine.com/wp-content/articles/pipes-people-dealing-with-stress/gerald-ford-pipe-smoke.jpg)
(http://i.usatoday.net/life/gallery/2009/l0908_garson_woodstock/pipe.jpg)
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2011/6/15/1308135461976/Californian-hippies-at-a--007.jpg)
(http://www.friendsofcannabis.com/directory/images/stories/b/brooke_shields_davehill77.jpg)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lqyiX01h1qmqha2o1_500.jpg)
(http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Jo_Rivera_girlfriend_bong.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvaCZuKjh6cBbxsa49mTX3pi0sNSnBwwm5EAk-937-q6QAMY8TUNzjz5Q)
You forgot the classic shot of Willem Dafoe and Charlie Sheen smoking dope through a shot gun barrel from Platoon!
-
One of these days a bunch of you guys have got to get together, grab a ruler and whip them out. One d*** measuring contest to settle this once and for all, instead of doing it in virtually every thread.
-
One of these days a bunch of you guys have got to get together, grab a ruler and whip them out. One d*** measuring contest to settle this once and for all, instead of doing it in virtually every thread.
I'm going to need a yardstick.
-
I'm going to need a yardstick.
(Not to measure; it's just one of Pakuni's odd fetishes.)
Everyone: please list your AGI from the past three years!
-
(Not to measure; it's just one of Pakuni's odd fetishes.)
Everyone: please list your AGI from the past three years!
What makes you think it's odd?
-
Perhaps you didn't mature as quickly as young Chicos?
I'll tell you all what... advancements in technology open up so many additional opportunities for people - and is one of many ways for "poor" people to improve their economic standing, if desired. Not enough have realized it yet and they probably never will.
The point of no return has probably long passed. The divide is such that (too) big government is here to stay. That's why living on an isolated compound is the life for me.
Also, no matter how long and baggy shorts get, they are an improvement over the sickening basketball shorts of the not-so-distant days of yesteryear.
Don't think it has a thing to do with maturity. In my mind it has to do with life events. It doesn't surprise me that Lenny, or Connecticut, or Sultan can't remember much of their childhood, that's probably pretty normal. It depends on what may have happened as triggers to instill those memories.
When you're a kid that moves from Texas to Panama to California to Peru to California then is transferred to Africa....it impacts your life moreso than if you spent the entire time in one place, one school. When you survive a hideous earthquake that killed massive number of people...that burns a memory (I will never forget that day). When you're in the 7th grade and your dad is in critical condition for 20+ days, that's not "normal" but burns a memory into your childhood. I was the one that found my dad and called the paramedics...that memory will forever be burned into my childhood. The interesting part is my sister, who lived in all the same places doesn't remember any of it and doctors have told her they think my dad's long stay in the hospital in which he should have died probably caused her to essentially suppress her childhood memories.
We're all different. I remember stuff vividly, others don't. What I find a bit ironic is some people in this thread complaining that I was using my experiences to extrapolate how the golden times were are now using their experiences in their childhood memories to imply that is the ability of people to remember things. We're all different.
By the way, there are some people the remember things to the extreme that is mind boggling. Marilu Henner is one such person. That's a gift. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/seen-at-11-rare-mental-condition-gives-actress-henner-super-human-memory/
-
I was a history major (and M.A.), and you nailed it. "Big Government" has led to the most prosperous decades of our country's existence, largely due to the military-industrial complex and funding that led to major innovations in science and technology in the 1940s, 50s and 60s (the space race, or semiconductors anyone?), major upgrades in infrastructure (Eisenhower's Interstate system), massive improvements in medicine (courtesy of NIH) and increases in educational achievement (GI Bill).
Now, I'm not saying this is all a good thing. One can make solid arguments against the military-industrial complex. But there's no disputing the fact that America's best economic times were largely funded by the federal government, and the Defense Department in particular.
To answer your question about private sector resentment towards the CCC, there was some, but FDR had massive amounts of political capital to make it happen. In general, the federal programs such as the CCC, TVA, etc. were lauded by both sides of the aisle. Part of this was because there were so little private sector jobs available (1/3 of the country was unemployed), and people could see the value in these programs were providing in upgrading infrastructure. These programs resulted in public school buildings, parks and bridges that everyone in society used. And to be frank, you didn't have things like political talk radio or television that was as divisive and misinforming the public.
I was a history major (among others) as well. I disagree with you saying there is no disputing that. UCLA has done just that.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/fdr-s-policies-prolonged-depression-5409.aspx
Plenty of books out there on the subject as well.
This is not to say that economies don't grow when the gov't is spending billions or trillions of dollars, they damn well better be. There is also a bill to be paid for that rather than kicking the can down the road as we often do, only racking up more debt in the process. As for political talk radio or television "misinforming the public"...do you think the gov't and its operatives do anything less?
-
Don't think it has a thing to do with maturity. In my mind it has to do with life events. It doesn't surprise me that Lenny, or Connecticut, or Sultan can't remember much of their childhood, that's probably pretty normal. It depends on what may have happened as triggers to instill those memories.
I actually remember quite a bit of details from my early childhood. I just touched a very few of the most remembered. Of course, I remember the gas shortage and the even-odd license plate number deal, but I obviously didn't drive, so it never was a concern and my parents treated it like "it is what it is" and isn't something that in my 2013 mindset that makes me reflect back as a reason why the 1970s were a Debbie Downer.
There's that old Austin Powers line that appproximately goes, "You didn't miss much baby, there was a a gas shortage and a Flock of Seagulls, and that's really it."
-
I was a history major (among others) as well. I disagree with you saying there is no disputing that. UCLA has done just that.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/fdr-s-policies-prolonged-depression-5409.aspx
I wasn't talking about FDR's policies in the 1930s and the depression. Take another look at what I wrote. They were post-War programs.
The New Deal programs (CCC, TVA, etc.) didn't get the country out of depression. World War II took care of that (see my comments on military-industrial complex). What the New Deal programs did do is provide relief and jobs to citizens.
-
Don't think it has a thing to do with maturity. In my mind it has to do with life events. It doesn't surprise me that Lenny, or Connecticut, or Sultan can't remember much of their childhood, that's probably pretty normal. It depends on what may have happened as triggers to instill those memories.
When you're a kid that moves from Texas to Panama to California to Peru to California then is transferred to Africa....it impacts your life moreso than if you spent the entire time in one place, one school. When you survive a hideous earthquake that killed massive number of people...that burns a memory (I will never forget that day). When you're in the 7th grade and your dad is in critical condition for 20+ days, that's not "normal" but burns a memory into your childhood. I was the one that found my dad and called the paramedics...that memory will forever be burned into my childhood. The interesting part is my sister, who lived in all the same places doesn't remember any of it and doctors have told her they think my dad's long stay in the hospital in which he should have died probably caused her to essentially suppress her childhood memories.
We're all different. I remember stuff vividly, others don't. What I find a bit ironic is some people in this thread complaining that I was using my experiences to extrapolate how the golden times were are now using their experiences in their childhood memories to imply that is the ability of people to remember things. We're all different.
By the way, there are some people the remember things to the extreme that is mind boggling. Marilu Henner is one such person. That's a gift. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/seen-at-11-rare-mental-condition-gives-actress-henner-super-human-memory/
It's not a case of remembering things or not. I'm starting to slip a little on the near term (where are my keys, why did I walk into this room, etc) but my recall of the past is just fine. Lyrics to old songs, details from sporting or family events - I'm my friends and family's go to guy. When my high school wrestling coach lost some of the meticulous records he kept from every season in a flood he called me to fill in the blanks. I wow them on the trivia contests at high school and grade school reunions.
Every childhood has memories good and bad. Martyrdom is available to anyone who wants to dwell on the negative. Some people actually like it, others can't help it. But happy, well adjusted people crowd out the bad memories with the much more plentiful good ones until they are much less vivid.
-
When you're a kid that moves from Texas to Panama to California to Peru to California then is transferred to Africa....it impacts your life moreso than if you spent the entire time in one place, one school. When you survive a hideous earthquake that killed massive number of people...that burns a memory (I will never forget that day). When you're in the 7th grade and your dad is in critical condition for 20+ days, that's not "normal" but burns a memory into your childhood. I was the one that found my dad and called the paramedics...that memory will forever be burned into my childhood. The interesting part is my sister, who lived in all the same places doesn't remember any of it and doctors have told her they think my dad's long stay in the hospital in which he should have died probably caused her to essentially suppress her childhood memories.
Wow - that's a lot to go through Chicos..even though we battle - I applaud you for overcoming all of that and living a successful life. Good for you.
-
I wasn't talking about FDR's policies in the 1930s and the depression. Take another look at what I wrote. They were post-War programs.
The New Deal programs (CCC, TVA, etc.) didn't get the country out of depression. World War II took care of that (see my comments on military-industrial complex). What the New Deal programs did do is provide relief and jobs to citizens.
I used it as one example of massive gov't infusion of dollars spent that didn't pay off.
The question becomes whether the New Deal provided temporary relief that had to be paid for many times over down the road and was highly inefficient as a result? Or another way of stating it, could the money have been spent a lot better, more productively, with greater results? Plenty of great books and studies over the years arguing about the success and failures of the New Deal, so again I don't think you can say it is unquestioned. Many unintended consequences arose. CCC, TVA, etc...on their own, sure....but whenever isolating these things on their own you invariably leave out the tentacles they touch or the opportunities avoided. Nature of the beast and impossible to prove out. Example...give the women's soccer team an extra $1M to their budget and as a result in 4 years they win 15% more of their games which they attribute to a larger recruiting budget, getting better players, better training, etc. On the whole, a success.......oh, but that $1M meant women's volleyball, track, volleyball each got $333K less and they all lost 5% more of their games. You get the idea...an elementary example but easily could make similar ones for business, gov't, you name it.
-
Wow - that's a lot to go through Chicos..even though we battle - I applaud you for overcoming all of that and living a successful life. Good for you.
My mom is a saint and kept everyone together. Strong lady, she's gone through a lot.
-
It's not a case of remembering things or not. I'm starting to slip a little on the near term (where are my keys, why did I walk into this room, etc) but my recall of the past is just fine. Lyrics to old songs, details from sporting or family events - I'm my friends and family's go to guy. When my high school wrestling coach lost some of the meticulous records he kept from every season in a flood he called me to fill in the blanks. I wow them on the trivia contests at high school and grade school reunions.
Every childhood has memories good and bad. Martyrdom is available to anyone who wants to dwell on the negative. Some people actually like it, others can't help it. But happy, well adjusted people crowd out the bad memories with the much more plentiful good ones until they are much less vivid.
To a large degree I think you are right. You have to adjust your psyche to overcome some of those negative things, otherwise you end up checking out some day. Your examples (lyrics, etc) trigger many memories as well. Didn't know you were a wrestler...my dad wrestled in college at the varsity level.
But I do believe there are certain triggers that manifest those memories. There are years that I don't remember much of anything really happening, and there are years where really cool or really bad stuff happened and those triggers resonate one way or another. For me, at least, I remember so much stuff about pop culture, politics, history, sports, etc, from decade to decade by tying it into what was going on personally or with family. It's a linkage trick (or curse...depending on your POV) for me.
-
What happened to the pipe smoking evolution? Can't you people stay on thread?
By the way, a question for the female posters--do any of you think that Cary Grant and Gable were studs? There were rumors that Gable was bi-sexual.
-
I was referencing more in terms of society in general. Rule of law. Contracts followed. Crime. Neighborly. Sense of honor. Divorce rates, single mother explosion, poverty, etc. These are the things I hear often when talking to people that were alive during that era. The Golden Age of America after WWII, the 1950's and early 1960's. GDP #1 per capita in the 1950's...today it is #13. Land of opportunity. 70% of American adults were married...today it is 48%. Less religious, less respectful. 13 million manufacturing jobs in the 1950's...in 2012 12 million.
Able to leave your cars and front door unlocked without thinking twice about it. Kids out playing until 10 at night without so much as even a nanosecond of thought that something evil or sinister could happen.
I don't know if crime overall has changed as far as rate, but I would have to say that violent crime is aimed toward children more now. Times may have changed in that aspect. I grew up in the projects and playing til 10 at night was normal with no supervision. Today, it's a pipe dream to allow my pre and young teen to roam the neighborhood (which is 100 times better than where I grew up) at that time of night, unless their at a stationary, supervised event (skating ring, bowling alley, etc.). And because of kids unwillingness to speak on crime because of the "No Snitching" rule, makes it more scary, and me as a parent, more protective. When did that start anyway?
Also, I do feel that society, as a whole, has lost respect for our elders and each other. Look at how we speak to each other. Calling women b!tche$ is the norm, and most are cool with it. Television is our biggest indicator of change. They curse on day-time tv and cartoons now. Look at Bam and other MTV reality shows. Everything seems to be more sexual to the point that parents allow their 10 year old daughters to wear "booty tight" jeans, and their sons wear their pants under their butt so their underwear shows. I wonder if they know that style originated in prison to promote homosexuality.
Chicos is right, times have changed whether good or bad!
-
It was the best of times; it was the worst of times. Ah…Dickens, he summed up this thread to a tee. Life is a path of hills and valleys. One could say I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood through the late 40s and through the 50s with my Mom and Dad; my Aunt, Uncle and two cousins who lived next door and grandparents who lived just a 15 minute walk away. They all worked, but one of them was always there to nurture me and my two cousins and make us feel safe. It was truly the best of times. In 1957 Sputnik was launched into space. The threat of Nuclear War was very real back then. I can remember the comical adds, even then, on TV to ‘duck and cover’ if a bomb should hit. We all knew ‘duck and cover’ would not save us. Then in the fall of 1962 our greatest fear was imminent. We were going to war with the Soviet Union if they would not withdraw their missiles from Cuba. Indeed it was the worst of times; and thankfully cooler heads prevailed or our world today would be much different. I remember the 70s, Vietnam and long gas lines, family returning from war, the death of my grandmother and aunt; but I also married the love of my life, moved into our then new house and the birth of our daughter. It was the best of times; it was the worst of times. In the 80s we celebrated the birth of our son and life went on pretty much as life does. At the turn of the millennium we lost my father-in law on Jan, 1 2000 and 12 days later our son died in an auto accident. My mother-in-law suffered from dementia so we cared for her. When my mom died after a long illness we had to take dad in as well. So for six years we were care takers for those who took care of us. Then in 2008 the great recession hit and my wife and I lost our jobs. So, we retired. In 2010 dad died, but two months later we welcomed our new grand daughter, Faith; and in this lousy economy we managed to sell dads house so my daughter and her family could move into their beautiful brand new home. Indeed, these are the best of times.
-
What happened to the pipe smoking evolution? Can't you people stay on thread?
By the way, a question for the female posters--do any of you think that Cary Grant and Gable were studs? There were rumors that Gable was bi-sexual.
I have heard that Clark Gable had dentures, and his breath was so bad that Vivienne Leigh's swoons of passion in those close-ups for "Gone with the Wind" were actually her trying not to pass out from the smell.
Plus, both of them are smokers, so that's a non-starter for me. They both knew how to dress though. I'll take a guy in a tuxedo over a guy in a Speedo any day.
-
It was the best of times; it was the worst of times. Ah…Dickens, he summed up this thread to a tee. Life is a path of hills and valleys. One could say I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood through the late 40s and through the 50s with my Mom and Dad; my Aunt, Uncle and two cousins who lived next door and grandparents who lived just a 15 minute walk away. They all worked, but one of them was always there to nurture me and my two cousins and make us feel safe. It was truly the best of times. In 1957 Sputnik was launched into space. The threat of Nuclear War was very real back then. I can remember the comical adds, even then, on TV to ‘duck and cover’ if a bomb should hit. We all knew ‘duck and cover’ would not save us. Then in the fall of 1962 our greatest fear was imminent. We were going to war with the Soviet Union if they would not withdraw their missiles from Cuba. Indeed it was the worst of times; and thankfully cooler heads prevailed or our world today would be much different. I remember the 70s, Vietnam and long gas lines, family returning from war, the death of my grandmother and aunt; but I also married the love of my life, moved into our then new house and the birth of our daughter. It was the best of times; it was the worst of times. In the 80s we celebrated the birth of our son and life went on pretty much as life does. At the turn of the millennium we lost my father-in law on Jan, 1 2000 and 12 days later our son died in an auto accident. My mother-in-law suffered from dementia so we cared for her. When my mom died after a long illness we had to take dad in as well. So for six years we were care takers for those who took care of us. Then in 2008 the great recession hit and my wife and I lost our jobs. So, we retired. In 2010 dad died, but two months later we welcomed our new grand daughter, Faith; and in this lousy economy we managed to sell dads house so my daughter and her family could move into their beautiful brand new home. Indeed, these are the best of times.
Thank you for bringing a lot of perspective to this thread. People who complain about the state of the country only seem to remember the good things from the 'good old days', while failing to acknowledge the ills of society at the time. The converse can be said about many views of today.
If you're honestly afraid to let your kids out after dark then you have deep personal problems and you believe what you want to. The streets of today are no more dangerous than the streets of your childhoods. The only thing that has changed is the fear that has grown inside of people. That is what has really changed. Everyone is afraid of their children's face ending up on the news as the next kid who got grabbed... or wonder what is becoming of this world. Remember, this is the world you are passing on to your children. You teach them to fear walking down the street because of something that MIGHT happen. When we insulate ourselves from our neighbors that is when the world gets more and more lonely.
To those of you who are openly nostalgic about the past, ask yourself how many of your neighbors you know. How many things have you done to fix the problem? If you're worried about sagging jeans on kids butts, and booty shorts on little girls, remember what your parents said about your clothes... and your music... and your entertainment.
Personally, I'm sick of all the alarmist behavior these days. Every damn thing is a crisis, and its exhausting.
-
Thank you for bringing a lot of perspective to this thread. People who complain about the state of the country only seem to remember the good things from the 'good old days', while failing to acknowledge the ills of society at the time. The converse can be said about many views of today.
If you're honestly afraid to let your kids out after dark then you have deep personal problems and you believe what you want to. The streets of today are no more dangerous than the streets of your childhoods. The only thing that has changed is the fear that has grown inside of people. That is what has really changed. Everyone is afraid of their children's face ending up on the news as the next kid who got grabbed... or wonder what is becoming of this world. Remember, this is the world you are passing on to your children. You teach them to fear walking down the street because of something that MIGHT happen. When we insulate ourselves from our neighbors that is when the world gets more and more lonely.
To those of you who are openly nostalgic about the past, ask yourself how many of your neighbors you know. How many things have you done to fix the problem? If you're worried about sagging jeans on kids butts, and booty shorts on little girls, remember what your parents said about your clothes... and your music... and your entertainment.
Personally, I'm sick of all the alarmist behavior these days. Every damn thing is a crisis, and its exhausting.
Very well said.
-
Personally, I'm sick of all the alarmist behavior these days. Every damn thing is a crisis, and its exhausting.
Have the Chinese always owned us?
PS - I wonder if chicos is talking about the big 1970 Peru earthquake.. I think there was another one that decade that claimed a few hundred lives... but there was an alarming amount of fatalities in '70. I think he would have been 1 year old, at most.. amazing memory!
-
Personally, I'm sick of all the alarmist behavior these days. Every damn thing is a crisis, and its exhausting.
Someone famously said "never want a serious crisis go to waste" (note I didn't say "good crisis"). That's why so many things are a crisis today. If only I could remember who said that. :D
-
Have the Chinese always owned us?
PS - I wonder if chicos is talking about the big 1970 Peru earthquake.. I think there was another one that decade that claimed a few hundred lives... but there was an alarming amount of fatalities in '70. I think he would have been 1 year old, at most.. amazing memory!
The Chinese own a small fraction of the US debt. I don't see how you can say they own us.
-
Have the Chinese always owned us?
PS - I wonder if chicos is talking about the big 1970 Peru earthquake.. I think there was another one that decade that claimed a few hundred lives... but there was an alarming amount of fatalities in '70. I think he would have been 1 year old, at most.. amazing memory!
Nope, I was talking about the one in '74...we missed the one in '70. The one in '74 I was outside in the backyard playing with my sister and my mom was inside and ultimately trapped until we could get her and a family friend out. It was a 7.2 and killed a few hundred if I recall and injured over a 1000. Damaged our house pretty badly. Like I said, I will never forget it. I was plenty old enough to remember and you don't forget events that traumatic.
I've been in several quakes approaching that magnitude, but never that close to the epicenter. The Landers quake a few years ago was a 7.3 but we were very far away from it as the epicenter was in the middle of the desert.
Going through the Lima quake at a 7.2 in 1950's infrastructure in a 3rd world country will burn a memory deep.
-
If you're honestly afraid to let your kids out after dark then you have deep personal problems and you believe what you want to. The streets of today are no more dangerous than the streets of your childhoods. The only thing that has changed is the fear that has grown inside of people. That is what has really changed. Everyone is afraid of their children's face ending up on the news as the next kid who got grabbed... or wonder what is becoming of this world. Remember, this is the world you are passing on to your children. You teach them to fear walking down the street because of something that MIGHT happen. When we insulate ourselves from our neighbors that is when the world gets more and more lonely.
To those of you who are openly nostalgic about the past, ask yourself how many of your neighbors you know. How many things have you done to fix the problem? If you're worried about sagging jeans on kids butts, and booty shorts on little girls, remember what your parents said about your clothes... and your music... and your entertainment.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc.
Deep personal problems for not letting your kids out late at night today, vs 30, 40, 50 years ago? Really? The streets of today actually ARE more dangerous than those of MY CHILDHOOD. Maybe they aren't as dangerous as YOUR CHILDHOOD or where YOU LIVE, but that's why it comes back to personal experiences and what you use as a benchmark. They most CERTAINLY are more dangerous than those of our parents and grandparents.
-
I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc.
Deep personal problems for not letting your kids out late at night today, vs 30, 40, 50 years ago? Really? The streets of today actually ARE more dangerous than those of MY CHILDHOOD. Maybe they aren't as dangerous as YOUR CHILDHOOD or where YOU LIVE, but that's why it comes back to personal experiences and what you use as a benchmark. They most CERTAINLY are more dangerous than those of our parents and grandparents.
I currently live in the city of Chicago and I can say with 100% certainty that I can walk around with much more safety than where my grandparents grew up in the 1920s and 1930s. Again, personal experience. But your personal experience is no more valid than mine or Hards.
-
I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc.
1. I have never had to tell my kids that.
2. I don't really want to compare the lyrics for the music I listened to versus the music they listen to. Mine were likely worse.
And I remember when my grandmother used to tell me stories about her mother yelling at her about the music she was listening to and the clothes she wore.
-
I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc.
My God but you are an angry, "get off of my lawn" old guy. Parents hating their children's wardrobe, hairstyles, music and overall "culture" was just as prevalent in the tune in, turn on, drop out days of my youth as it is today. Kids rebel, test limits. Parents worry. Same as it ever was.
-
I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing.
I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc.
Deep personal problems for not letting your kids out late at night today, vs 30, 40, 50 years ago? Really? The streets of today actually ARE more dangerous than those of MY CHILDHOOD. Maybe they aren't as dangerous as YOUR CHILDHOOD or where YOU LIVE, but that's why it comes back to personal experiences and what you use as a benchmark. They most CERTAINLY are more dangerous than those of our parents and grandparents.
You are the perfect example of the "sky is falling" type of person. How popular are songs that say that its 'cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls', and can you actually name any without looking it up? Or is this some nonsense you 'heard' about? Perhaps you should go back and listen to some of the more underground songs of the 70s and 80s.
I understand that you don't like others to make generalizations and you'd love to discuss only your personal experiences, but that is unfair if you start by making generalizations about society. That is pretty convenient.
-
I think he is referring to early 90s music rather than music that is coming out today because the majority of today's music doesn't even have lyrics as it EDM (electronic dance music for you old timers)
-
Kids rebel, test limits. Parents worry. Same as it ever was.
Bingo.
Kids today aren't without their challenges, but the idea that the youth of today is fundamentally different than before is crazy.
"Back in my day, singers didn't gyrate their hips like that. Totally inappropriate." - Every parent in the 1950's who saw Elvis.
-
Bingo.
Kids today aren't without their challenges, but the idea that the youth of today is fundamentally different than before is crazy.
"Back in my day, singers didn't gyrate their hips like that. Totally inappropriate." - Every parent in the 1950's who saw Elvis.
Elvis' mom should have told him to knock it the hell off. Then everything would be fine now.
-
My God but you are an angry, "get off of my lawn" old guy. Parents hating their children's wardrobe, hairstyles, music and overall "culture" was just as prevalent in the tune in, turn on, drop out days of my youth as it is today. Kids rebel, test limits. Parents worry. Same as it ever was.
I agree with Chico. The mores today are more permissive than they were 50 or 60 years ago. Divorce was shameful and abortion was unthinkable. The Catholic Church condemned the film Peyton Place (’58 or ’59), which by today’s standards are laughable. One of the main characters was raped by her step-father and wanted the town doctor to perform an abortion in the film which was why the church thought it was inappropriate for Catholics to see. However if the church sensor actually saw the film they may have thought otherwise as the doctor refused to abort the child as it was against the laws of God and man. That was the mind set of the late 50s concerning abortion. The Church itself is to blame for the moral decline of today for it would condemn women who had abortions, point to homosexuals as living a sinful existence; while protecting priests who molested our children. Who would have thought that the unsafest place for our children was the parish rectory. Yes, parents worried, but my parents never had to worry if I was chatting with some pervert on my laptop, or sexting to my girlfriend or listening to vulgar music on my droid or ipad. They didn’t have to lock channels on the TV to make sure I wasn’t watching something inappropriate. If I did something wrong at school, they didn’t tell the teacher “My son would never do that” they sit me down and explain the new ground rules. We didn’t get suspended from school we got detention; usually all day Saturday or Sunday. No one at that time would bring a gun or even think of bringing one to school. The school I went to was one third minority by the way. Yes parents worried, but today’s parents have a lot more to worry about.
-
I agree with Chico. The mores today are more permissive than they were 50 or 60 years ago. Divorce was shameful and abortion was unthinkable.
Some might say its a more just society because a woman can leave her husband in an abusive relationship without fear of retribution or judgment by society. Just my 2 cents...
-
I agree with Chico. The mores today are more permissive than they were 50 or 60 years ago. Divorce was shameful and abortion was unthinkable. The Catholic Church condemned the film Peyton Place (’58 or ’59), which by today’s standards are laughable. One of the main characters was raped by her step-father and wanted the town doctor to perform an abortion in the film which was why the church thought it was inappropriate for Catholics to see. However if the church sensor actually saw the film they may have thought otherwise as the doctor refused to abort the child as it was against the laws of God and man. That was the mind set of the late 50s concerning abortion. The Church itself is to blame for the moral decline of today for it would condemn women who had abortions, point to homosexuals as living a sinful existence; while protecting priests who molested our children. Who would have thought that the unsafest place for our children was the parish rectory. Yes, parents worried, but my parents never had to worry if I was chatting with some pervert on my laptop, or sexting to my girlfriend or listening to vulgar music on my droid or ipad. They didn’t have to lock channels on the TV to make sure I wasn’t watching something inappropriate. If I did something wrong at school, they didn’t tell the teacher “My son would never do that” they sit me down and explain the new ground rules. We didn’t get suspended from school we got detention; usually all day Saturday or Sunday. No one at that time would bring a gun or even think of bringing one to school. The school I went to was one third minority by the way. Yes parents worried, but today’s parents have a lot more to worry about.
I agree, but I don't know if it necessarily "more". I would say "different".
Let's say you and your kids live on a farm in the 1940's
You have to worry about them:
A. Getting kicked by a horse/bull
B. Getting their hand ripped off by dangerous farm implements
C. Having sex in the hay loft with another kid from down the road
D. Polio
E. etc. etc.
I'd rather worry about my kid on the internet than worry about him having Polio*.
*Yes, I know it's a ridiculous comparison. It was intentional.
Every generation of kids is different, but I don't know that one generation of kids/adults has "more" to worry about than others.
I love old things (cars, records, music, houses, etc.), and I find myself to be very nostalgic. But, I can't/won't let nostalgia cloud my logic.
-
I'm going to need a yardstick.
Cold water, too
(http://www.earth.northwestern.edu/~yarrow/images/measuring_torf.jpg)
-
I have heard that Clark Gable had dentures, and his breath was so bad that Vivienne Leigh's swoons of passion in those close-ups for "Gone with the Wind" were actually her trying not to pass out from the smell.
Plus, both of them are smokers, so that's a non-starter for me. They both knew how to dress though. I'll take a guy in a tuxedo over a guy in a Speedo any day.
My wife had read that about Gable's breath. We watched GWTW at the Varsity Theatre and laughed aloud during the kissing scene at that inside joke. I guess he had some awful condition that caused fumes from his gut to come out through his mouth. The thought is stomach turning, actually.
Chick, I thought you were an enlightened sophisticate who appreciated the fervid piquancy of the Côte d'Azur...oui, ou je me trompe???
(http://rboy.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Borat-Swimsuit-On-Fat-Guy.jpg)
-
I currently live in the city of Chicago and I can say with 100% certainty that I can walk around with much more safety than where my grandparents grew up in the 1920s and 1930s. Again, personal experience. But your personal experience is no more valid than mine or Hards.
You're right, it isn't more valid than theres....so when they say unquestionably it is safer now than then, they would be equally wrong. ;D All depends on your benchmark. Generally speaking, of course, there is also the data. If you were walking around in the 1940's, 1950's and almost all of the 1960's, you were safer than today. That's what the FBI says.
-
I agree with Chico. The mores today are more permissive than they were 50 or 60 years ago. Divorce was shameful and abortion was unthinkable. The Catholic Church condemned the film Peyton Place (’58 or ’59), which by today’s standards are laughable. One of the main characters was raped by her step-father and wanted the town doctor to perform an abortion in the film which was why the church thought it was inappropriate for Catholics to see. However if the church sensor actually saw the film they may have thought otherwise as the doctor refused to abort the child as it was against the laws of God and man. That was the mind set of the late 50s concerning abortion. The Church itself is to blame for the moral decline of today for it would condemn women who had abortions, point to homosexuals as living a sinful existence; while protecting priests who molested our children. Who would have thought that the unsafest place for our children was the parish rectory. Yes, parents worried, but my parents never had to worry if I was chatting with some pervert on my laptop.
Your view of the "good old days", when the church (metaphorically) burned books and children were afraid to tell their parents they were being raped by priests for fear of being further abused, are very different than mine.
-
1. I have never had to tell my kids that.
2. I don't really want to compare the lyrics for the music I listened to versus the music they listen to. Mine were likely worse.
And I remember when my grandmother used to tell me stories about her mother yelling at her about the music she was listening to and the clothes she wore.
Of course, but context is important. Turn that crazy rock and roll stuff off or stop watching Elvis shake his hips on Ed Sullivan is a litter different than the lyrics of today. We can play semantics all the time with these comparisons, but I don't think anyone is going to say the lyrics of the 1950's, 1960's are as hostile as what we have seen the last few decades.
There's a reason ratings came into being for movies, tv shows, music, etc.
Or maybe its due to the creative soul being released now.......
-
You are the perfect example of the "sky is falling" type of person. How popular are songs that say that its 'cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls', and can you actually name any without looking it up? Or is this some nonsense you 'heard' about? Perhaps you should go back and listen to some of the more underground songs of the 70s and 80s.
I understand that you don't like others to make generalizations and you'd love to discuss only your personal experiences, but that is unfair if you start by making generalizations about society. That is pretty convenient.
How popular....actually plenty popular. Tell me, why do we have ratings systems for songs, etc in the last few decades but didn't need them in the 1950's, 60's, even 70's. ;)
-
Some might say its a more just society because a woman can leave her husband in an abusive relationship without fear of retribution or judgment by society. Just my 2 cents...
That's definitely part of it, but there's also a lot of folks that at the first moment of things going bad they leave. "For better or worse"...doesn't mean a damn thing to many today. "Good times and in bad"....is a throw away line. My brother in law does Catholic marriage encounters with his wife to help today's couples, been doing in for years. The stories are pretty sad. The decline of the family takes a hit all the time, one wonders what it will be like in another 50 years considering the absolute erosion in the previous 50. Good times.
-
My God but you are an angry, "get off of my lawn" old guy. Parents hating their children's wardrobe, hairstyles, music and overall "culture" was just as prevalent in the tune in, turn on, drop out days of my youth as it is today. Kids rebel, test limits. Parents worry. Same as it ever was.
Funny, the parents back then don't say that. They say how much tougher it is to be a parent today than it was then because of how society has changed.
In a recent poll, 87% of parents say it is tougher to be a parent today when they were growing up. DAMN all those sky is falling folks. LOL
When the question was asked of grandparents if they believe it was harder for them to raise their kids in their time or harder for their kids to raise their grandkids, what did they say? 93% said tougher for their kids to raise the grandkids due to technology, societal changes, change in attitudes, lack of discipline in the schools, etc.
DAMN THOSE GRANDPARENTS FOR BEING SUCH CHICKEN LITTLES!! LOL. ;D
Here's the 2009 poll, numbers were a little lower. The more recent one (which I'll post) has that 83% up to 87% and the 90% to 93%.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/625-kids-today-more-difficult-to-raiseteens-most-troublesome/
-
Good times.
Dy-No-Mite!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CXVtm97fWDo/TDQo9wKCKkI/AAAAAAAABuY/-4a31UyHC2s/s1600/JJ.jpg)
-
Funny, the parents back then don't say that. They say how much tougher it is to be a parent today than it was then because of how society has changed.
In a recent poll, 87% of parents say it is tougher to be a parent today when they were growing up. DAMN all those sky is falling folks. LOL
When the question was asked of grandparents if they believe it was harder for them to raise their kids in their time or harder for their kids to raise their grandkids, what did they say? 93% said tougher for their kids to raise the grandkids due to technology, societal changes, change in attitudes, lack of discipline in the schools, etc.
DAMN THOSE GRANDPARENTS FOR BEING SUCH CHICKEN LITTLES!! LOL. ;D
Here's the 2009 poll, numbers were a little lower. The more recent one (which I'll post) has that 83% up to 87% and the 90% to 93%.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/625-kids-today-more-difficult-to-raiseteens-most-troublesome/
People think it was easier to raise children when they were young, energetic and ran things than they do now, when they're old, tired and the world has passed them by a little? Wow, that is absolutely shocking! Stop the presses!
-
Funny, the parents back then don't say that. They say how much tougher it is to be a parent today than it was then because of how society has changed.
In a recent poll, 87% of parents say it is tougher to be a parent today when they were growing up. DAMN all those sky is falling folks. LOL
When the question was asked of grandparents if they believe it was harder for them to raise their kids in their time or harder for their kids to raise their grandkids, what did they say? 93% said tougher for their kids to raise the grandkids due to technology, societal changes, change in attitudes, lack of discipline in the schools, etc.
DAMN THOSE GRANDPARENTS FOR BEING SUCH CHICKEN LITTLES!! LOL. ;D
Here's the 2009 poll, numbers were a little lower. The more recent one (which I'll post) has that 83% up to 87% and the 90% to 93%.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/625-kids-today-more-difficult-to-raiseteens-most-troublesome/
Here is the problem:
You (and the people polled) are suffering from some sort of nostalgia bias. It's not "harder", it's just different, and that scares people. Fear of the unknown is powerful.
I bet if you asked these same people when it was harder to be a kid, they would say when they were a kid. They had to walk uphill to school... both ways.
And as far as Elvis and lyrics go, you're really missing the point. You are evaluating the pervasiveness using today's standards. It doesn't work like that. 50 years from now, people will look at lil wayne and laugh at the outrage over his stupid pants... but they will have an entirely different perspective because they will be 50 years older.
You are a smart guy. Don't let nostalgia cloud your logic. Certainly some things were better "back in the day", but let's not be silly about it.
-
How popular....actually plenty popular. Tell me, why do we have ratings systems for songs, etc in the last few decades but didn't need them in the 1950's, 60's, even 70's. ;)
(http://www.taylorclark.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/picard-498x249.jpg)
-
People think it was easier to raise children when they were young, energetic and ran things than they do now, when they're old, tired and the world has passed them by a little? Wow, that is absolutely shocking! Stop the presses!
Yet you ignore the grandparents perspective in seeing how societal changes, etc make it harder today to raise kids.
Shocking.
-
(http://www.taylorclark.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/picard-498x249.jpg)
I'll take that as your inability to answer. There was no need to have ratings systems back in the day when was nothing to rate against.
-
Here is the problem:
You (and the people polled) are suffering from some sort of nostalgia bias. It's not "harder", it's just different, and that scares people. Fear of the unknown is powerful.
I bet if you asked these same people when it was harder to be a kid, they would say when they were a kid. They had to walk uphill to school... both ways.
And as far as Elvis and lyrics go, you're really missing the point. You are evaluating the pervasiveness using today's standards. It doesn't work like that. 50 years from now, people will look at lil wayne and laugh at the outrage over his stupid pants... but they will have an entirely different perspective because they will be 50 years older.
You are a smart guy. Don't let nostalgia cloud your logic. Certainly some things were better "back in the day", but let's not be silly about it.
Yup, it's different today but it's also harder. The difference, in this case, has made it harder. It doesn't have to be one of the other.
Did my grandparents have to worry about teen pregnancy when raising their kids?
How about drug use?
Etc
I could make a list 100 deep.
If it wasn't harder, you wouldn't have 90% plus of grandparents saying it is harder. In fact listening to people here there has been suggestions in this thread and others that people in NOSTALGIC days want to always tell you how hard it was back in their day. The old jokes of having to walk barefoot to school and uphill...both ways. Yet that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what is happening with these survey results. These old, curmudgeon folks are saying how much HARDER it is today rather than their day. Hmmmmm
Nothing to do with nostalgia, it's just a lot harder now. That was the point of interviewing the grandparents who aren't doing the raising of kids now, but they are perceptive and realize how things have changed so much. You're right, it is "different" but that difference also makes it harder. Whether it is technology, erosion of morality, less discipline, less religious convictions, whatever...it's harder.
-
Survey data from Marist
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/usapolls/us090421/Raising%20Children/Raising%20Children%20Now_Harder_Easier_or%20No%20Difference%20from%20Previous%20Generations.htm
-
Of course, but context is important. Turn that crazy rock and roll stuff off or stop watching Elvis shake his hips on Ed Sullivan is a litter different than the lyrics of today.
Gangsta rap isn't the "lyrics of today." They are the lyrics of 15-20 years ago. And the lyrics of some of the 60s and 70s stuff was bad. Most of the lyrics of today is pretty tame stuff.
Honestly I think you must be a 80 year old woman.
-
Survey data from Marist
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/usapolls/us090421/Raising%20Children/Raising%20Children%20Now_Harder_Easier_or%20No%20Difference%20from%20Previous%20Generations.htm
Every generation thinks this. Not really earth shattering stuff there.
-
Gangsta rap isn't the "lyrics of today." They are the lyrics of 15-20 years ago. And the lyrics of some of the 60s and 70s stuff was bad. Most of the lyrics of today is pretty tame stuff.
Honestly I think you must be a 80 year old woman.
I'll ask again, why are their lyrics ratings now and there weren't when Elvis was shaking his pelvis?
As for "gangsta rap isn't the lyrics of today".....are you saying it isn't around. 15-20 years ago you say. Hmm, interesting.
Please provide some of the lyrics of the 1960's and 70's that "was bad" that in ANY WAY parallels what is out there today. I'd like to see that. Lyric ratings were put in place in the mid 1980's....those bad 1960's & 1970's lyrics must have been missed apparently.
U.O.E.N.O is currently #27 on the charts....pro rape song. Reebok had to drop Rick Ross as a result. Oh, #27 in the July 20th 2013 charts, not the 1995 charts....this week's chart.
Hardly an 80 year old woman, I just recognize things are more challenging today then they were in the past. Does that recognition or admission make me an 80 year old woman? What does sticking your head in the sand and trying to compare it to the past as an equivalency make someone, especially when the equivalency isn't there?
-
Every generation thinks this. Not really earth shattering stuff there.
Really....actually every generation typically thinks how hard it was "back in their day". Have you never heard the phrase "you kids have it so easy today". I guess that kind of neutralizes the "every generation thinks this". LOL
I happen to think the elders of a society have a lot to teach us, could be my Asian studies background where elders are held in higher esteem. When they speak, I listen.
-
I'll ask again, why are their lyrics ratings now and there weren't when Elvis was shaking his pelvis?
As for "gangsta rap isn't the lyrics of today".....are you saying it isn't around. 15-20 years ago you say. Hmm, interesting.
Please provide some of the lyrics of the 1960's and 70's that "was bad" that in ANY WAY parallels what is out there today. I'd like to see that. Lyric ratings were put in place in the mid 1980's....those bad 1960's & 1970's lyrics must have been missed apparently.
Why don't you post some of the lyrics and song titles that you find so offensive so we can see what the heck you are talking about and be done with it. I have a good idea why you won't.
-
I'll ask again, why are their lyrics ratings now and there weren't when Elvis was shaking his pelvis?
Because of chicken littles like you.
As for "gangsta rap isn't the lyrics of today".....are you saying it isn't around. 15-20 years ago you say. Hmm, interesting.
It may be around, but is hardly mainstream. It never really was actually.
Please provide some of the lyrics of the 1960's and 70's that "was bad" that in ANY WAY parallels what is out there today. I'd like to see that. Lyric ratings were put in place in the mid 1980's....those bad 1960's & 1970's lyrics must have been missed apparently.
Really? There were all sorts of anti-establishment songs back then that talked about revolution, etc. I mean I'm sure I can find some fringe song because that is kind of what you are focusing on right now.
-
Really....actually every generation typically thinks how hard it was "back in their day". Have you never heard the phrase "you kids have it so easy today". I guess that kind of neutralizes the "every generation thinks this". LOL
No..not really.
I happen to think the elders of a society have a lot to teach us, could be my Asian studies background where elders are held in higher esteem. When they speak, I listen.
Agreed. Of course they aren't all knowing...
-
I'll ask again, why are their lyrics ratings now and there weren't when Elvis was shaking his pelvis?
As for "gangsta rap isn't the lyrics of today".....are you saying it isn't around. 15-20 years ago you say. Hmm, interesting.
Ask Tipper Gore. She flipped over a Prince LP nearly 30 years ago and then went after rap music. 2 Live Crew in '86 had such hits as "We Want Some P****" and "Throw the 'D'". More than 25 years ago a record store employee was charged with a felony for selling a kid a 2 Live Crew record.
"F*ck tha Police" by NWA is 25 years old.
Ice T's weirdo Body Count group had "Cop Killer"... that was more than 20 years ago.
More than 25 years ago Too Short was on wax asking Ronald Reagan about cocaine sales in the White House and telling the President about explicit sex acts that Nancy performed on him.
25 years ago Willie Dee was rhyming about... very naughty things.
Just because you may have not been listening to it doesn't mean "raunchy" lyrics weren't around long before the current day.
-
U.O.E.N.O is currently #27 on the charts....pro rape song. Reebok had to drop Rick Ross as a result. Oh, #27 in the July 20th 2013 charts, not the 1995 charts....this week's chart.
If that is a pro-rape song, then 5 to 1 by the Doors is a pro overthrow the government song. Christ...
-
Ask Tipper Gore. She flipped over a Prince LP nearly 30 years ago and then went after rap music. 2 Live Crew in '86 had such hits as "We Want Some P****" and "Throw the 'D'". More than 25 years ago a record store employee was charged with a felony for selling a kid a 2 Live Crew record.
"F*ck tha Police" by NWA is 25 years old.
Ice T's weirdo Body Count group had "Cop Killer"... that was more than 20 years ago.
More than 25 years ago Too Short was on wax asking Ronald Reagan about cocaine sales in the White House and telling the President about explicit sex acts that Nancy performed on him.
25 years ago Willie Dee was rhyming about... very naughty things.
Just because you may have not been listening to it doesn't mean "raunchy" lyrics weren't around long before the current day.
Jay Bee...please don't tell me you were actually listening to this stuff. How did you manage to not kill cops, do drugs and conduct general mayhem?
-
Jay Bee...please don't tell me you were actually listening to this stuff. How did you manage to not kill cops, do drugs and conduct general mayhem?
2 out of 3 ain't bad
-
I think some of you are mixing up what was said about today and actions taken. It's not as if my kids can't listen to music, can't watch rated R movies, can't play M games on PS3 or XBox or whatever. All I said is today is a lot harder to raise kids than it was back then and there are many more influences that are troublesome than back then.
When people try to make Elvis pelvis examples as some how on the same level as the stuff in the last 20 years, I can only call it laughable. All that being said, you can't wrap your kids up in pillows and ear plugs and hide them in the basement, nor is anyone suggesting that. But people that have seen the times change are right, it's a lot harder today and more complicated due to technology, family breakdown, entertainment, moral softening, lack of discipline in schools, relaxed laws, etc.
-
Ask Tipper Gore. She flipped over a Prince LP nearly 30 years ago and then went after rap music. 2 Live Crew in '86 had such hits as "We Want Some P****" and "Throw the 'D'". More than 25 years ago a record store employee was charged with a felony for selling a kid a 2 Live Crew record.
"F*ck tha Police" by NWA is 25 years old.
Ice T's weirdo Body Count group had "Cop Killer"... that was more than 20 years ago.
More than 25 years ago Too Short was on wax asking Ronald Reagan about cocaine sales in the White House and telling the President about explicit sex acts that Nancy performed on him.
25 years ago Willie Dee was rhyming about... very naughty things.
Just because you may have not been listening to it doesn't mean "raunchy" lyrics weren't around long before the current day.
Yes these lyrics were around 25 years ago. A big difference I see in music is the blatant sexuality in music targeted at 9-18 year olds. Think Brittany. Best example of the top of my head is Brittany Spears 3. About threesomes. Or blatant drug and alcohol/drug use (Kesha, Amy Winehouse...others). These are songs on the top 40. A difference from the past.
Admittedly, there were vague references to sex/drugs in some songs a ways back, but it is more blatant today. This started in the mid 90's, shortly after the above songs.
I'm not worried about lyrics though, frankly that should be the least of anyones worries. More troublesome is changes in culture. Those saying that this is not going on are either trying to poke chico's or are frankly ignorant of changing attitudes/culture in youth. You are right that over the years generations have said the same about their kids, but it is largely warranted.
Youth in the late 60's/70's were chastised for drug use (marijuana/LSD) and a lack of respect for authority...Guess what that was a valid change in culture. The changing dynamics continued in the 80's but was more focused in the inner cities and a youth movement (led to big changes in clothing/culture...think skater culture). They were chastised for no respect for elders (this was true) and concerns over drugs (cocaine) again a valid issue as cocaine use skyrocketed. Note the issues are a trend and continued to get worse. The 90's, were a direct extension of the 80's...urbanization of culture...the skater scene grew into the grunge seen...urban culture shifted from traditional rap (Run DMC) to gangstar rap (NWA). Led to a further separation from authority and more promotion of violence as an acceptable culture aspect. The 2000's heavily promoted the party/wealth/sex culture.
It has been a general worsening trend. Largely resulting from a breakdown in the traditional family/neighborhood. By traditional family, I mean one that had parents around often. Society now requires a two person income and often individuals working 60 hours a week (between the office and home). This has led to absentee parenting, where an individual overcompensates by providing kids with more (money, freedom, stuff) and supporting them as always good kids (not their fault, my kids a good kid). If you work with youth today, you'll see the effect of this. Educators that have worked with kids for 40 years complain of this trend in parent/kids and the lack of individual responsibility in the youth today.
The breakdown in family/neighborhood has also led to environments being less safe. The neighborhood as a whole used to keep an eye on youth. Today, most don't even know their neighbors names. An additional aspect of the decrease in safety is the use of weapons. Fights used to involve fists (maybe knives), now guns are the weapon of choice leading to increased violence as guns can provide a sense of false power and security (whereas a threat of a fight--balanced encounter would decrease the likelihood of some encounters).
Again, denying these trends as a "blindness because all generations say this" is a shortsighted and lazy argument and denies a critical analysis of the issues at hand.
-
Again, denying these trends as a "blindness because all generations say this" is a shortsighted and lazy argument and denies a critical analysis of the issues at hand.
Right...because you have a real keen eye for the issues at hand while the rest of us are just "lazy." GMAFB.
-
Right...because you have a real keen eye for the issues at hand while the rest of us are just "lazy." GMAFB.
Typical, no actual commentary, rather just insult. I provided insight as to why each generation says the same thing, because it is rooted in fact.
The arguments others are using would be the equivalent of every generation saying prices go up. Well clearly every generation says it so it must be completely false...alternatively it is true and part of a trend...a little thing called inflation.
Also, I likely spend more time with the youth than you have...so yes I likely have more of a keen eye for the issues at hand than you do.
-
Ask Tipper Gore. She flipped over a Prince LP nearly 30 years ago and then went after rap music. 2 Live Crew in '86 had such hits as "We Want Some P****" and "Throw the 'D'". More than 25 years ago a record store employee was charged with a felony for selling a kid a 2 Live Crew record.
"F*ck tha Police" by NWA is 25 years old.
Ice T's weirdo Body Count group had "Cop Killer"... that was more than 20 years ago.
More than 25 years ago Too Short was on wax asking Ronald Reagan about cocaine sales in the White House and telling the President about explicit sex acts that Nancy performed on him.
Not to mention Andrew Dice Clay and his nursery rhymes, hey?
25 years ago Willie Dee was rhyming about... very naughty things.
Just because you may have not been listening to it doesn't mean "raunchy" lyrics weren't around long before the current day.
-
Typical, no actual commentary, rather just insult. I provided insight as to why each generation says the same thing, because it is rooted in fact.
The arguments others are using would be the equivalent of every generation saying prices go up. Well clearly every generation says it so it must be completely false...alternatively it is true and part of a trend...a little thing called inflation.
Also, I likely spend more time with the youth than you have...so yes I likely have more of a keen eye for the issues at hand than you do.
I'm going to ignore the last statement because I think it's funny.
Look, parenthood is about getting your kids to adulthood and to be productive members of society. The stuff we are talking about are just things that we worry can knock them off that path. IMO, this challenge is really no different, and not really all that much harder, than it was for my parents...or their parents...or my ancestors from Austria who wanted to make sure little Wolfgang didn't catch the Plague, get hopped up on mead, or fall under the wicked spell of Marta the Harlot.
-
I think some of you are mixing up what was said about today and actions taken. It's not as if my kids can't listen to music, can't watch rated R movies, can't play M games on PS3 or XBox or whatever. All I said is today is a lot harder to raise kids than it was back then and there are many more influences that are troublesome than back then.
When people try to make Elvis pelvis examples as some how on the same level as the stuff in the last 20 years, I can only call it laughable. All that being said, you can't wrap your kids up in pillows and ear plugs and hide them in the basement, nor is anyone suggesting that. But people that have seen the times change are right, it's a lot harder today and more complicated due to technology, family breakdown, entertainment, moral softening, lack of discipline in schools, relaxed laws, etc.
You are missing the point on the Elvis stuff... again.
You are using today's values and evaluating things that happened in the 1950's. It doesn't work like that. You can't just use hindsight. You have to view it through the prism of the 1950's. It was considered scandalous... just like some music today is scandalous. Young people are always pushing boundaries and limits. That's not new to this generation. That's the point.
And again, nobody said raising kids today isn't hard. It is. There are a lot of real dangers out there.
But, I think you are forgetting all of the real dangers of the 1950's and 60's. Infant mortality rate, cars were far more unsafe, teens could still get pregnant back then (that isn't new), polio (ever heard of it?), etc.
I'd rather monitor my child's internet use (today's problem) vs worrying about him being drafted and sent to Vietnam. Oh, and "separate but equal" was still the law of the land in some places. School integration in Mississippi was probably a little more dangerous and stressful than facebook, right?
The problems and challenges today are just different, and therefore "scary", which is understandable. But, let's apply some logic and not just emotion.
-
I'll ask again, why are their lyrics ratings now and there weren't when Elvis was shaking his pelvis?
I'm told that we live in a political correct society that expects the government to protect us from everything.
Therefore, it's not surprising that music ratings are a more recent phenomenon, is it?
-
You are missing the point on the Elvis stuff... again.
You are using today's values and evaluating things that happened in the 1950's. It doesn't work like that. You can't just use hindsight. You have to view it through the prism of the 1950's. It was considered scandalous... just like some music today is scandalous. Young people are always pushing boundaries and limits. That's not new to this generation. That's the point.
And again, nobody said raising kids today isn't hard. It is. There are a lot of real dangers out there.
But, I think you are forgetting all of the real dangers of the 1950's and 60's. Infant mortality rate, cars were far more unsafe, teens could still get pregnant back then (that isn't new), polio (ever heard of it?), etc.
I'd rather monitor my child's internet use (today's problem) vs worrying about him being drafted and sent to Vietnam. Oh, and "separate but equal" was still the law of the land in some places. School integration in Mississippi was probably a little more dangerous and stressful than facebook, right?
The problems and challenges today are just different, and therefore "scary", which is understandable. But, let's apply some logic and not just emotion.
Your right, of course. It's all about context and perspective. Parents will nearly always tell their children how much harder it was "in their day" even as they wax nostalgic about the good old days. Grandparents are an additional generation removed from the fray so the fact that they think it's harder to raise children in a time not their own is no surprise. Why anyone would waste the time to take a poll on something so obvious and meaningless is beyond me.
-
Because of chicken littles like you.
More likely because society felt that certain things are needed with warnings for parents, kids, etc. I mean, using your logic, why not just put porn on CBS because there really shouldn't be anything to worry about except for those chicken littles. Or where is it that the line is drawn? Porn = out. Song glorifying killing cops = ok. Song glorifying rape = ok. I guess I'd like to see where you draw the line.
I'm not against selling this stuff, I'm all for it. If people want to buy it, more power to them. Since most parents can't get around to hearing certain things or watching certain things, I'm also not against the warnings as a tool for parents and consumers in general.
-
Ask Tipper Gore. She flipped over a Prince LP nearly 30 years ago and then went after rap music. 2 Live Crew in '86 had such hits as "We Want Some P****" and "Throw the 'D'". More than 25 years ago a record store employee was charged with a felony for selling a kid a 2 Live Crew record.
"F*ck tha Police" by NWA is 25 years old.
Ice T's weirdo Body Count group had "Cop Killer"... that was more than 20 years ago.
More than 25 years ago Too Short was on wax asking Ronald Reagan about cocaine sales in the White House and telling the President about explicit sex acts that Nancy performed on him.
25 years ago Willie Dee was rhyming about... very naughty things.
Just because you may have not been listening to it doesn't mean "raunchy" lyrics weren't around long before the current day.
Never said they weren't....I think you are missing the point...I was comparing it to 1950's, 1960's....fare earlier than Ice T or NWA or whatever. And yes, I'm aware of what was going on....I even got to go to Public Enemy's Rock and Rock Hall of Fame induction a few months ago (well, they were inducted along with Rush, Randy Newman, Heart, etc).
If you can honestly tell me that glorifying rape, saying it's cool to shoot cops, etc is the same as the lyrics of the 1950's and 1960's, then have at it.
And yes, Guns N Ammo, I get times change...that's part of the whole point of this entire thread. Times change and it isn't always good. Just because we have lowered or moral guard and said it's cool to allow this stuff doesn't mean it's a good thing.
-
The problems and challenges today are just different, and therefore "scary", which is understandable. But, let's apply some logic and not just emotion.
Guns, back in your day could you leave the front door unlocked at your home? Is it emotional today that we lock the doors, something caused by fear or is it because (again based on when you grew up) common sense?
Polio...yes, heard of it...I have a nice scar from my polio vaccination on my left shoulder.
I don't disagree with you that the challenges are different, and I think more problematic than in the past. Lenny can dismiss his peers (the elderly) if he wishes, I don't.
For every cars are safer today I can come up with just as many if not more problematic scenarios. So yes, different and in some cases more problematic.
Saw an interesting story yesterday on television about sex and young folks today. It was with a number of psychologists and sex therapy types and the premise was that with the easy access of porn today on the internet, etc, that kids no longer no how to make love. It was kind of funny, but it rang true. They were talking about the long term effects this will have on marriage, relationships, etc, as you have generations of kids now getting out there that basically copying what they see in 10 minute videos. Especially interesting to note what young women are being taught by this.
Different? Certainly. More challenging and problematic...I think so and so did those experts. Chicken little...maybe.
-
Your right, of course. It's all about context and perspective. Parents will nearly always tell their children how much harder it was "in their day" even as they wax nostalgic about the good old days. Grandparents are an additional generation removed from the fray so the fact that they think it's harder to raise children in a time not their own is no surprise. Why anyone would waste the time to take a poll on something so obvious and meaningless is beyond me.
Makes me think you have little regard for your peers Lenny. As if they are not capable of using their wisdom, their intellect, their experience to be able to fundamentally compare eras....eras, I'd remind you, that they have lived in both. I'll have to remember that next time you opine about something as your age group apparently isn't capable of such measurement. ;)
-
Makes me think you have little regard for your peers Lenny. As if they are not capable of using their wisdom, their intellect, their experience to be able to fundamentally compare eras....eras, I'd remind you, that they have lived in both. I'll have to remember that next time you opine about something as your age group apparently isn't capable of such measurement. ;)
On the contrary, Chicos, I have a great deal of regard for my peers and their (our) wisdom. And in applying that wisdom, it's apparent to them (us) that the normal order of things is to think that in the times when one is young and has the energy that they (of course) would find it easier to raise children than in an era that is past their (our) time. Perhaps when you're older and wiser you'll be able to grasp that this is the normal nature of things and that any poll that tells us that things are as they've always been and should always be isn't worth making much of a deal over.
-
Just because we have lowered or moral guard and said it's cool to allow this stuff doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Right. In 1960, some people thought Elvis was ruining the moral fiber of the country.
You see what I mean?
How you feel isn't new. There are always people that are scared of what the teens are listening to. Let's not pretend like this is new.
-
For every cars are safer today I can come up with just as many if not more problematic scenarios. So yes, different and in some cases more problematic.
Saw an interesting story yesterday on television about sex and young folks today. It was with a number of psychologists and sex therapy types and the premise was that with the easy access of porn today on the internet, etc, that kids no longer no how to make love. It was kind of funny, but it rang true. They were talking about the long term effects this will have on marriage, relationships, etc, as you have generations of kids now getting out there that basically copying what they see in 10 minute videos. Especially interesting to note what young women are being taught by this.
Different? Certainly. More challenging and problematic...I think so and so did those experts. Chicken little...maybe.
Well, this is where the rubber meets the road for me.
Do you think all of those people who said raising a child is harder today sat down and made a list of things that are better and things that are worse? I have a feeling emotions & nostalgia are coloring how everybody feels. It's just not a scientific answer.
This is why I think it's impossible to say that it's "harder" today. It's just different. Different set of problems and challenges.
As far as the porn/sex stuff, your point is absolutely valid. I do that that is a very real concern for teens and ultimately parents. It'll be interesting to see how things evolve over the next 10-20 years.
Also, given your opinions are about how difficult it is today, have you ever thought about moving to a smaller community and home schooling your kids? I don't say this to be a smart ass, but, as a parent, you have a lot of control over how your kids are influenced. Keep them off of the internet. Limit television. Home school them. Live in a small/rural community. I imagine that would eliminate a lot of today's challenges.
-
Hey you kids ... get out of my yard!
-
Never said they weren't....I think you are missing the point...I was comparing it to 1950's, 1960's....fare earlier than Ice T or NWA or whatever. And yes, I'm aware of what was going on....I even got to go to Public Enemy's Rock and Rock Hall of Fame induction a few months ago (well, they were inducted along with Rush, Randy Newman, Heart, etc).
If you can honestly tell me that glorifying rape, saying it's cool to shoot cops, etc is the same as the lyrics of the 1950's and 1960's, then have at it.
Oh, I see. I was bringing up "nasty rap lyrics" of 20-25 years ago because of your comments to Sultan (i.e., gangsta rap was big 15-20 years ago.. and your "15 to 20 years ago? Hmm, interesting" reply) and your comments that "I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing. I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc."
But, if you're going to now backtrack and claim that you mistook your childhood to be in the 50's and 60's instead of the 70's and 80's.. then we're good. You must have temporarily forgotten when you grew up when you made those comments. Glad to see you have changed your "tune" on this.
Because I agree things have gone downhill. I just was simply calling you out on your inaccuracies re: hiphop music.
-
Gangsta rap isn't the "lyrics of today." They are the lyrics of 15-20 years ago. And the lyrics of some of the 60s and 70s stuff was bad. Most of the lyrics of today is pretty tame stuff.
Honestly I think you must be a 80 year old woman.
Terror, man, I cannot disagree with you more. We (Wife, Daughter, myself) were at a family party a couple of weeks ago. Long story short, daughter wanted to go out with mom and dad (wanted mom and dad to pay for some drinks, she is a broke 21 year old) went to dance joint. Lyrics and dance were beyond graphic. I was a teen in the mid and late 70's. Music insinuated sexual acts, but it was subtle. (Mama's got a squeezebox she wears on her chest and when Daddy comes home he never gets no rest)...No that is probably not the most graphic of the era, but 1st that came to mind.
21 year old daughter is a joy. Teenage years, not so much. Nothing more than a typical teen, trying to assert her independence. I was no angel, nor was I a big trouble maker. Anyone who thinks that raising a teenager now is easier than 40 years ago is naive or hasn't raised a teenager in the last 10 years. If I had time, I'd write a book.
-
21 year old daughter is a joy. Teenage years, not so much. Nothing more than a typical teen, trying to assert her independence. I was no angel, nor was I a big trouble maker. Anyone who thinks that raising a teenager now is easier than 40 years ago is naive or hasn't raised a teenager in the last 10 years. If I had time, I'd write a book.
I've raised two of them...well one is still a teenager.
-
More likely because society felt that certain things are needed with warnings for parents, kids, etc. I mean, using your logic, why not just put porn on CBS because there really shouldn't be anything to worry about except for those chicken littles. Or where is it that the line is drawn? Porn = out. Song glorifying killing cops = ok. Song glorifying rape = ok. I guess I'd like to see where you draw the line.
I don't have a problem with ratings for music...I never paid attention to them as a parent but if that's what society wants...
-
Terror, man, I cannot disagree with you more. We (Wife, Daughter, myself) were at a family party a couple of weeks ago. Long story short, daughter wanted to go out with mom and dad (wanted mom and dad to pay for some drinks, she is a broke 21 year old) went to dance joint. Lyrics and dance were beyond graphic. I was a teen in the mid and late 70's. Music insinuated sexual acts, but it was subtle. (Mama's got a squeezebox she wears on her chest and when Daddy comes home he never gets no rest)...No that is probably not the most graphic of the era, but 1st that came to mind.
21 year old daughter is a joy. Teenage years, not so much. Nothing more than a typical teen, trying to assert her independence. I was no angel, nor was I a big trouble maker. Anyone who thinks that raising a teenager now is easier than 40 years ago is naive or hasn't raised a teenager in the last 10 years. If I had time, I'd write a book.
Speaking of more subtle lyrics from our day, anyone remember the song that that had this lyric "it ain't the meat, it's the motion"?
-
News flash CBB, naughty music doesn't make people do naughty things.
Just like violent video games don't make people commit violent crimes.
get real.
-
Music insinuated sexual acts, but it was subtle. (Mama's got a squeezebox she wears on her chest and when Daddy comes home he never gets no rest)...No that is probably not the most graphic of the era, but 1st that came to mind.
Nothin' subtle 'bout Otis Day & the Knights
(http://www.otisdayandtheknights.com/2.0/bio-otis-animalhouse.jpg)
Shama Lama Ding Dong
-
Hide your daughters! The Coasters in 1951 - possibly the 1st use of the term "rock & roll"
Well listen here girls, I'm telling you now.
They call me lovin' Dan.
I'll rock 'em, roll 'em all night long
I'm a 60 minute man.
And if you don't believe I'm all I say,
Come up and take my hand.
As soon as I leave you go you'll cry
"Oh Yeah, he's a sixty Minute Man!"
* There'll be 15 minutes of kissin',
And then you holler "Oh please don't stop!"
There'll be 15 minutes of teasin'
And 15 minutes of pleasin'
And 15 minutes of blowin' my top! MOP MOP MOP!
Well if your man ain't treatin' you right
Come up and see your Dan.
I'll rock 'em, roll 'em all night long
I'm a 60 minute man.
** 60 (Minute Man)
Well they call me (lovin' Dan)
I'll rock 'em, roll 'em all night long
I'm a 60 minute man.
** Repeat
* Repeat
Well if your man ain't treatin' you right
Come up and see your Dan.
I'll rock 'em, roll 'em all night long
I'm a 60 minute man.
Oh yeah! 60 Minute,
Rock'em, roll'em, rammin', jammin' all night long
I'm a 60 Minute Man.
-
I was actually pleasantly surprised at how easy (other than financially) it was to raise my daughter into a bright, lovely, involved, civic-minded, motivated college freshman-to-be. She has opportunities that I never had in my youth. Thanks to her singing voice and my checkbook, she has performed with her high school choir at the Vatican, at Ground Zero, at venues all over our state, in regional competitions in Chicago and at Notre Dame. Even if I could have sung that well, my high school offered nothing like that. Choir just wasn't a priority at my catholic high school. We taught her to never define herself by her boyfriend. Because of her own intellect, she quickly figured out that high school jocks simply weren't worth her time. Thanks to the miracle-mid-life crisis, now-6 1/2-year old-brother, 'the talk' was the easiest thing. "Sex makes babies. You see that? (pointing at her little brother wrecking something) When you want one of those, go for it. If you don't, don't" Also thanks to her baby brother and conversations she, by default, had to be part of, she knows that there can be life and death challenges for women who have babies in their late 30's and that even though the Catholic church will never endorse abortion, sometimes it has to be discussed. Thankfully, it never came to that.
The 'problem' with modern society is that our generation (and by that, I approximately mean the 30-50 year olds ) is narcissistic, lazy, and greedy. We have been given so much that we whine when it is even a little bit difficult or even the slightest sacrifice is called for. Now is the time for us to take the lead and instead of leading in a positive direction, we are leading the whining. Some have embraced Randian concepts and turned their back on any spirit of community and then wondered why the communities are suffering. It is trite, but be the change you want to see in the world. Love your God above all things and treat your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Ask not what your community can do for you but what you can do for your community. Clearly, these are not new principles. Get involved and for God's sake quit whining. There are a thousand opportunities out there every day to make the world a better place. Embrace them and you will be amazed at how fast your attitude changes. The world does not revolve around you, nor was it meant to. Because it doesn't live up to some utopian fantasy is no reason to whine and disengage.
-
Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
Dinah Moe Humm
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Frank_Zappa_Mothers_of_Invention_1971.JPG)
-
Right. In 1960, some people thought Elvis was ruining the moral fiber of the country.
You see what I mean?
How you feel isn't new. There are always people that are scared of what the teens are listening to. Let's not pretend like this is new.
What I'm saying is those same people that said that in the 1960's are alive today and saying it's not even close to being the same. They are able to compare, quite easily I might add.
-
The 'problem' with modern society is that our generation (and by that, I approximately mean the 30-50 year olds ) is narcissistic, lazy, and greedy. We have been given so much that we whine when it is even a little bit difficult or even the slightest sacrifice is called for. Now is the time for us to take the lead and instead of leading in a positive direction, we are leading the whining. Some have embraced Randian concepts and turned their back on any spirit of community and then wondered why the communities are suffering. It is trite, but be the change you want to see in the world. Love your God above all things and treat your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Ask not what your community can do for you but what you can do for your community. Clearly, these are not new principles. Get involved and for God's sake quit whining. There are a thousand opportunities out there every day to make the world a better place. Embrace them and you will be amazed at how fast your attitude changes. The world does not revolve around you, nor was it meant to. Because it doesn't live up to some utopian fantasy is no reason to whine and disengage.
Well stated....I agree with much of this. It's the people that aren't living by the golden rule that I worry about. :)
-
nm
-
The 'problem' with modern society is that our generation (and by that, I approximately mean the 30-50 year olds ) is narcissistic, lazy, and greedy. We have been given so much that we whine when it is even a little bit difficult or even the slightest sacrifice is called for. Now is the time for us to take the lead and instead of leading in a positive direction, we are leading the whining. Some have embraced Randian concepts and turned their back on any spirit of community and then wondered why the communities are suffering. It is trite, but be the change you want to see in the world. Love your God above all things and treat your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Ask not what your community can do for you but what you can do for your community. Clearly, these are not new principles. Get involved and for God's sake quit whining. There are a thousand opportunities out there every day to make the world a better place. Embrace them and you will be amazed at how fast your attitude changes. The world does not revolve around you, nor was it meant to. Because it doesn't live up to some utopian fantasy is no reason to whine and disengage.
Amen brother.
-
Oh, I see. I was bringing up "nasty rap lyrics" of 20-25 years ago because of your comments to Sultan (i.e., gangsta rap was big 15-20 years ago.. and your "15 to 20 years ago? Hmm, interesting" reply) and your comments that "I don't remember my parents having to tell me to pull my pants up because the crack of my ass was showing. I don't remember my parents having to tell me I shouldn't be listening to certain music because the music back then wasn't saying it was cool to kill cops, start riots, rape girls, etc."
But, if you're going to now backtrack and claim that you mistook your childhood to be in the 50's and 60's instead of the 70's and 80's.. then we're good. You must have temporarily forgotten when you grew up when you made those comments. Glad to see you have changed your "tune" on this.
Because I agree things have gone downhill. I just was simply calling you out on your inaccuracies re: hiphop music.
I think you need to read the post or two before that.
-
Things are difficult today in a different way than they were difficult 20 years ago or 40 years ago or 60 years ago and so on. Things are easier today in a different way than they were 20, 40 and 60 years ago.
Get to go with kids next week to work on houses for ASP in Kentucky. Will be a bit worried about all the things we can't control the week after that.
Nature, nurture and "outside" environment. All age old truths. Nature is nature; we do the best we can with nurture; and we try not to agonize too much about those external forces.
Next.
-
News flash CBB, naughty music doesn't make people do naughty things.
Just like violent video games don't make people commit violent crimes.
get real.
Don't know. I let my kids play M games, they are well adjusted, aren't out killing people. I don't think there is a causal relationship. Do I think it can lead to anger outbursts, some unhealthy addictions, etc? Yes. Does it cause violence, don't know...some say yes, some say no. Then again, lots of research over the years has been wrong....what's the latest from the last week or so, Omega 3 Fish Oils may cause cancer after being told for two decades we should take them. So who knows. I'll bet we could find research that says if you practice free throws more often you will make more in games and probably find other research that says it doesn't matter. Just as we can find some research that says states with concealed gun laws have less violent crime while other research shows no difference. A subject for another day I'm sure.
Music...again, direct causality...tough to prove. Can it help to promote a certain image and get a kid that is on the edge to go further? You bet...saw it in my family growing up and she will admit it to this day. Lyrics, how they dressed, what drugs they were using were "cool" and she wanted to be cool. Was it the reason? Probably not. Did it help? Let's put it this way, it certainly didn't hurt.
Personally, I like the ratings. I like having a guidance, if for simply the reason to have a pause. Whether I act on it, that's a case by case situation. My kids are straight A students, lots of friends, very good athletes, etc, etc....they want to play those games, listen to that music....as long as I don't see negative impacts, ok.
Now, take it a step further, should kids have access to porn? (I'm not naive to think they don't get it, I'm just asking since these things don't lead to anything in your mind, one would think unfettered porn to kids at ? age wouldn't do anything, not "make them" do things.) Do you agree?
-
Well stated....I agree with much of this. It's the people that aren't living by the golden rule that I worry about. :)
Worry about yourself. Then worry about your family. Do a good enough job of it and there won't be any time left to worry about others.
-
Worry about yourself. Then worry about your family. Do a good enough job of it and there won't be any time left to worry about others.
(http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/art-print/robert-leighton-go-evolve-don-t-worry-about-us-new-yorker-cartoon_i-G-66-6602-PEQ2100Z.jpg)
-
What I'm saying is those same people that said that in the 1960's are alive today and saying it's not even close to being the same. They are able to compare, quite easily I might add.
Wait, the people that thought Elvis was going to corrupt America's youth are the people that should evaluate modern music?
-
(http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/art-print/robert-leighton-go-evolve-don-t-worry-about-us-new-yorker-cartoon_i-G-66-6602-PEQ2100Z.jpg)
Do you have a database of these cartoons than you can query whatever keyword was in the last post?
-
Like I said, things have changed quite a bit in the last 50 years, I really wonder what it will be like in another 50.
http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4849
-
Like I said, things have changed quite a bit in the last 50 years, I really wonder what it will be like in another 50.
http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4849
Clearly an edited video of "several" bros at one school should be used as an indictment of an entire generation.
In the meantime, Gallup shows attitudes toward abortion have remained relatively unchanged since the mid 70s.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx#1
-
Like I said, things have changed quite a bit in the last 50 years, I really wonder what it will be like in another 50.
http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4849
I wonder if the death camp survivors of the 1940's said the same thing as they saw millions of their friends and family burtalized and gassed to death? I wonder if the priest abuse victims of the wonderous 1950's and 1960's think that today? Or the peoples of the Iron Curtain countries before 1990? Aaah, for the good old days...out of sight, out of mind!
-
Lawyer sues Apple for not protecting him from online porn.
http://abovethelaw.com/2013/07/lawyer-apple-should-protect-me-from-my-porn-addiction/?utm_source=Above%20the%20Law&utm_campaign=Above_the_Law_Daily_07_12_2013&utm_medium=email
And yes, he thinks the 50s were so much better:
"In the 1950s, before there was in the internet and the ACLU, we had prayer in school, males were not flaming out academically, there was no need for viagra commercials to clog up our televisions late at not, homosexuals were substantially fewer in number, sex trafficking was virtually nonexistent, prostitution was way down, and child porn was unheard of. Why are things different – easily accessible pornography accessible through high speed internet and devices like Apple products is one contributing factor in that complex answer."
-
Lawyer sues Apple for not protecting him from online porn.
http://abovethelaw.com/2013/07/lawyer-apple-should-protect-me-from-my-porn-addiction/?utm_source=Above%20the%20Law&utm_campaign=Above_the_Law_Daily_07_12_2013&utm_medium=email
And yes, he thinks the 50s were so much better:
"In the 1950s, before there was in the internet and the ACLU, we had prayer in school, males were not flaming out academically, there was no need for viagra commercials to clog up our televisions late at not, homosexuals were substantially fewer in number, sex trafficking was virtually nonexistent, prostitution was way down, and child porn was unheard of. Why are things different – easily accessible pornography accessible through high speed internet and devices like Apple products is one contributing factor in that complex answer."
Too funny. And ironic considering Apple is much more restrictive than Google in their app store. They don't allow any adult content there.
-
I wonder if the death camp survivors of the 1940's said the same thing as they saw millions of their friends and family burtalized and gassed to death? I wonder if the priest abuse victims of the wonderous 1950's and 1960's think that today? Or the peoples of the Iron Curtain countries before 1990? Aaah, for the good old days...out of sight, out of mind!
Really!! That's what you came up with? Wow!
-
Harder
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/fashion/sex-on-campus-she-can-play-that-game-too.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&
-
I wonder if the death camp survivors of the 1940's said the same thing as they saw millions of their friends and family burtalized and gassed to death? I wonder if the priest abuse victims of the wonderous 1950's and 1960's think that today? Or the peoples of the Iron Curtain countries before 1990? Aaah, for the good old days...out of sight, out of mind!
Godwin's Law v2.0 Addressed several pages ago.
-
Godwin's Law v2.0 Addressed several pages ago.
Right. And it was dumb for you to say it back then too.
-
Harder
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/fashion/sex-on-campus-she-can-play-that-game-too.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&
Adults in their early 20s are having casual sex?
Ohs noes!
-
Godwin's Law v2.0 Addressed several pages ago.
I claim Munroe's Law. You lose...again.
(http://ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/XkcdKitty.png)
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2009/11/10-geeky-laws-that-should-exist-but-dont/
-
Adults in their early 20s are having casual sex?
Ohs noes!
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/its_time_for_an_end_to_womens_stories/
Yeah, I tend to think that this is a little overblown. (Excuse the pun...) I mean, women are having sex in college and they like it. Is this really new? Haven't men been doing this for decades? (Or in my case at least trying to do this?)
-
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/its_time_for_an_end_to_womens_stories/
Yeah, I tend to think that this is a little overblown. (Excuse the pun...) I mean, women are having sex in college and they like it. Is this really new? Haven't men been doing this for decades? (Or in my case at least trying to do this?)
I thought the begging started after I do...
-
Dads not fans.....what does it come to in another 20, 30, 50 years.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/college_sex_pushes_hedgie_dad_buttons_mSRJFcHWyV2LJBcMEPyu0J
-
Dads not fans.....what does it come to in another 20, 30, 50 years.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/college_sex_pushes_hedgie_dad_buttons_mSRJFcHWyV2LJBcMEPyu0J
Women voting? *gasp*
What will it come to in 20, 30, 50 years?
C'mon Chico's. Do you really live in a constant state of panic?
-
Women voting? *gasp*
What will it come to in 20, 30, 50 years?
C'mon Chico's. Do you really live in a constant state of panic?
I feel like keefe
(http://jwa.org/sites/jwa.org/files/mediaobjects/gwhints1.jpg)
(http://teamoyeniyi.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/novote.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/192x/80/22/6c/80226cca7bc8dc5818b4a6c20a66ca3c.jpg)
-
Some of the very best fighter pilots in the world wouldn't have been allowed out of the kitchen one generation ago. Our military is a better place for it.
Capt Kim "Killer Chick" Campbell brought her Warthog back safely after suffering massive hydraulic failure from AAA fire over Baghdad. She was awarded the DFC for valor and aeronautical excellence in combat.
(http://www.womensmemorial.org/Education/images/Kim&Warthog.gif)
Lt Col Jill "Foot" Long, Warthog Driver
(http://media.pennlive.com/west-shore/photo/0307pilot3jpeg-ef48177140b5e15e.jpeg)
Capt. Jammie "Trix" Jamieson, 1st Female Raptor Driver
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5080/393689452801fb1a40fao.jpg)
Maj. Gina "Fly Paper" Sabric, Viper Driver
(http://api.ning.com/files/Z5zLHe0l5fwNKsNEK-DpIKJSyPAk6w592aUlLdnySh2rPPtQFxgZJKUF9yb5pKJntb4fi1iWXcVw2lmZlEqegSlF-JC2abc9/18670_13511.jpg?width=750)
Strike Eagle Drivers in Training
(http://www.lundberg.tv/cfpa/images/fighter_chick_site_images/Rainbow.jpg)
(http://blogsensebybarb.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/free-women.jpg)
(http://legacy.stripes.com/07/jun07/heroesweb/photos/big/campbell1.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhXV1Odc9vLZCPjolNGLZ8kVKEGuRKF5gicTDearYK3i83_HPc)
-
OMG...THOSE FIGHTER PILOTS ARE WEARING DUNGAREES!!!!
-
DUNGAREES!!!!
Nomex. Flame retardant.
-
Some of the very best fighter pilots in the world wouldn't have been allowed out of the kitchen one generation ago. Our military is a better place for it.
Capt Kim "Killer Chick" Campbell brought her Warthog back safely after suffering massive hydraulic failure from AAA fire over Baghdad. She was awarded the DFC for valor and aeronautical excellence in combat.
(http://www.womensmemorial.org/Education/images/Kim&Warthog.gif)
Lt Col Jill "Foot" Long, Warthog Driver
(http://media.pennlive.com/west-shore/photo/0307pilot3jpeg-ef48177140b5e15e.jpeg)
Capt. Jammie "Trix" Jamieson, 1st Female Raptor Driver
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5080/393689452801fb1a40fao.jpg)
Maj. Gina "Fly Paper" Sabric, Viper Driver
(http://api.ning.com/files/Z5zLHe0l5fwNKsNEK-DpIKJSyPAk6w592aUlLdnySh2rPPtQFxgZJKUF9yb5pKJntb4fi1iWXcVw2lmZlEqegSlF-JC2abc9/18670_13511.jpg?width=750)
Strike Eagle Drivers in Training
(http://www.lundberg.tv/cfpa/images/fighter_chick_site_images/Rainbow.jpg)
(http://blogsensebybarb.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/free-women.jpg)
(http://legacy.stripes.com/07/jun07/heroesweb/photos/big/campbell1.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhXV1Odc9vLZCPjolNGLZ8kVKEGuRKF5gicTDearYK3i83_HPc)
Yeah, but have any of those broads managed to bag a husband? I didn't think so. The shame it must bring to their parents.....
-
They're probably used to flyin' solo, hey?
-
Those are some BA warrior chicks!
Keefe, why is it "driver" and not pilot? ?-(
-
Those are some BA warrior chicks!
Keefe, why is it "driver" and not pilot? ?-(
Not sure where that convention came from but it's been around a long time. My father flew the F4G and introduced himself as a Weasel Driver.
-
Harder...much harder
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/exclusive-4-5-us-face-near-poverty-no-work-0
-
Harder...much harder
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/exclusive-4-5-us-face-near-poverty-no-work-0
Ahh, Chicos. Most of the folks that disagree with you did not live during the the 50s, 60s, or even the 70s. They have no reference as to what life was like back then.
-
Harder...much harder
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/exclusive-4-5-us-face-near-poverty-no-work-0
Poverty rate for families:
1959 - 18.5 percent
2011 - 11.8 percent
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/historical/families.html
-
Had to share this
If you are 36, or older, you might think this is hilarious!
When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious diatribes about how hard things were. When they were growing up; what with walking twenty-five miles to school every morning.... Uphill... Barefoot... BOTH ways...yadda, yadda, yadda
And I remember promising myself that when I grew up, there was no way in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on my kids about how hard I had it and how easy they've got it!
But now that I'm over the ripe old age of forty, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today. You've got it so easy! I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damn Utopia! And I hate to say it, but you kids today, you don't know how good you've got it!
1) I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have the Internet. If we wanted to know something, we had to go to the damn library and look it up ourselves, in the card catalog!!
2) There was no email!! We had to actually write somebody a letter - with a pen! Then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the mailbox, and it would take like a week to get there! Stamps were 10 cents!
3) Child Protective Services didn't care if our parents beat us. As a matter of fact, the parents of all my friends also had permission to kick our ass! Nowhere was safe!
4) There were no MP3's or Napsters or iTunes! If you wanted to steal music, you had to hitchhike to the record store and shoplift it yourself!
5) Or you had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio, and the DJ would usually talk over the beginning and @#*% it all up! There were no CD players! We had tape decks in our car. We'd play our favorite tape and "eject" it when finished, and then the tape would come undone rendering it useless. Cause, hey, that's how we rolled, Baby! Dig?
6) We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called, they got a busy signal, that's it!
7) There weren't any freakin' cell phones either. If you left the house, you just didn't make a damn call or receive one. You actually had to be out of touch with your "friends". OH MY GOSH !!! Think of the horror... not being in touch with someone 24/7!!! And then there's TEXTING. Yeah, right. Please! You kids have no idea how annoying you are.
And we didn't have fancy Caller ID either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was! It could be your school, your parents, your boss, your bookie, your drug dealer, the collection agent... you just didn't know!!! You had to pick it up and take your chances, mister!
9) We didn't have any fancy PlayStation or Xbox video games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600! With games like 'Space Invaders' and 'Asteroids'. Your screen guy was a little square! You actually had to use your imagination!!! And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen.. Forever! And you could never win. The game just kept getting harder and harder and faster and faster until you died! Just like LIFE!
10) You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! You were screwed when it came to channel surfing! You had to get off your ass and walk over to the TV to change the channel!!! NO REMOTES!!! Oh, no, what's the world coming to?!?!
11) There was no Cartoon Network either! You could only get cartoons on Saturday Morning. Do you hear what I'm saying? We had to wait ALL WEEK for cartoons, you spoiled little rat-bastards!
12) And we didn't have microwaves. If we wanted to heat something up, we had to use the stove! Imagine that!
13) And our parents told us to stay outside and play... all day long. Oh, no, no electronics to soothe and comfort. And if you came back inside... you were doing chores!
And car seats - oh, please! Mom threw you in the back seat and you hung on. If you were lucky, you got the "safety arm" across the chest at the last moment if she had to stop suddenly, and if your head hit the dashboard, well that was your fault for calling "shot gun" in the first place!
See! That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy. You're spoiled rotten! You guys wouldn't have lasted five minutes back in 1970 or any time before!
-
Poverty rate for families:
1959 - 18.5 percent
2011 - 11.8 percent
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/historical/families.html
1970's about 11%....now at 15%. There are two poverty numbers put out by the Federal gov't. one by the Census and one by the Department of Health and Human Services.
Not sure where you got your 11.8%....here's an article from Huff Post last year that also concurs with my numbers...over 15% and climbing. Highest since the 1960's http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/us-poverty-level-1960s_n_1692744.html
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Number_in_Poverty_and_Poverty_Rate_1959_to_2011._United_States..PNG)
-
Had to share this
If you are 36, or older, you might think this is hilarious!
When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious diatribes about how hard things were. When they were growing up; what with walking twenty-five miles to school every morning.... Uphill... Barefoot... BOTH ways...yadda, yadda, yadda
And I remember promising myself that when I grew up, there was no way in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on my kids about how hard I had it and how easy they've got it!
But now that I'm over the ripe old age of forty, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today. You've got it so easy! I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damn Utopia! And I hate to say it, but you kids today, you don't know how good you've got it!
1) I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have the Internet. If we wanted to know something, we had to go to the damn library and look it up ourselves, in the card catalog!!
2) There was no email!! We had to actually write somebody a letter - with a pen! Then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the mailbox, and it would take like a week to get there! Stamps were 10 cents!
3) Child Protective Services didn't care if our parents beat us. As a matter of fact, the parents of all my friends also had permission to kick our ass! Nowhere was safe!
4) There were no MP3's or Napsters or iTunes! If you wanted to steal music, you had to hitchhike to the record store and shoplift it yourself!
5) Or you had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio, and the DJ would usually talk over the beginning and @#*% it all up! There were no CD players! We had tape decks in our car. We'd play our favorite tape and "eject" it when finished, and then the tape would come undone rendering it useless. Cause, hey, that's how we rolled, Baby! Dig?
6) We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called, they got a busy signal, that's it!
7) There weren't any freakin' cell phones either. If you left the house, you just didn't make a damn call or receive one. You actually had to be out of touch with your "friends". OH MY GOSH !!! Think of the horror... not being in touch with someone 24/7!!! And then there's TEXTING. Yeah, right. Please! You kids have no idea how annoying you are.
And we didn't have fancy Caller ID either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was! It could be your school, your parents, your boss, your bookie, your drug dealer, the collection agent... you just didn't know!!! You had to pick it up and take your chances, mister!
9) We didn't have any fancy PlayStation or Xbox video games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600! With games like 'Space Invaders' and 'Asteroids'. Your screen guy was a little square! You actually had to use your imagination!!! And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen.. Forever! And you could never win. The game just kept getting harder and harder and faster and faster until you died! Just like LIFE!
10) You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! You were screwed when it came to channel surfing! You had to get off your ass and walk over to the TV to change the channel!!! NO REMOTES!!! Oh, no, what's the world coming to?!?!
11) There was no Cartoon Network either! You could only get cartoons on Saturday Morning. Do you hear what I'm saying? We had to wait ALL WEEK for cartoons, you spoiled little rat-bastards!
12) And we didn't have microwaves. If we wanted to heat something up, we had to use the stove! Imagine that!
13) And our parents told us to stay outside and play... all day long. Oh, no, no electronics to soothe and comfort. And if you came back inside... you were doing chores!
And car seats - oh, please! Mom threw you in the back seat and you hung on. If you were lucky, you got the "safety arm" across the chest at the last moment if she had to stop suddenly, and if your head hit the dashboard, well that was your fault for calling "shot gun" in the first place!
See! That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy. You're spoiled rotten! You guys wouldn't have lasted five minutes back in 1970 or any time before!
Hilarious and oh so true.
-
Had to share this
If you are 36, or older, you might think this is hilarious!
When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious diatribes about how hard things were. When they were growing up; what with walking twenty-five miles to school every morning.... Uphill... Barefoot... BOTH ways...yadda, yadda, yadda
And I remember promising myself that when I grew up, there was no way in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on my kids about how hard I had it and how easy they've got it!
But now that I'm over the ripe old age of forty, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today. You've got it so easy! I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damn Utopia! And I hate to say it, but you kids today, you don't know how good you've got it!
1) I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have the Internet. If we wanted to know something, we had to go to the damn library and look it up ourselves, in the card catalog!!
2) There was no email!! We had to actually write somebody a letter - with a pen! Then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the mailbox, and it would take like a week to get there! Stamps were 10 cents!
3) Child Protective Services didn't care if our parents beat us. As a matter of fact, the parents of all my friends also had permission to kick our ass! Nowhere was safe!
4) There were no MP3's or Napsters or iTunes! If you wanted to steal music, you had to hitchhike to the record store and shoplift it yourself!
5) Or you had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio, and the DJ would usually talk over the beginning and @#*% it all up! There were no CD players! We had tape decks in our car. We'd play our favorite tape and "eject" it when finished, and then the tape would come undone rendering it useless. Cause, hey, that's how we rolled, Baby! Dig?
6) We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called, they got a busy signal, that's it!
7) There weren't any freakin' cell phones either. If you left the house, you just didn't make a damn call or receive one. You actually had to be out of touch with your "friends". OH MY GOSH !!! Think of the horror... not being in touch with someone 24/7!!! And then there's TEXTING. Yeah, right. Please! You kids have no idea how annoying you are.
And we didn't have fancy Caller ID either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was! It could be your school, your parents, your boss, your bookie, your drug dealer, the collection agent... you just didn't know!!! You had to pick it up and take your chances, mister!
9) We didn't have any fancy PlayStation or Xbox video games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600! With games like 'Space Invaders' and 'Asteroids'. Your screen guy was a little square! You actually had to use your imagination!!! And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen.. Forever! And you could never win. The game just kept getting harder and harder and faster and faster until you died! Just like LIFE!
10) You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! You were screwed when it came to channel surfing! You had to get off your ass and walk over to the TV to change the channel!!! NO REMOTES!!! Oh, no, what's the world coming to?!?!
11) There was no Cartoon Network either! You could only get cartoons on Saturday Morning. Do you hear what I'm saying? We had to wait ALL WEEK for cartoons, you spoiled little rat-bastards!
12) And we didn't have microwaves. If we wanted to heat something up, we had to use the stove! Imagine that!
13) And our parents told us to stay outside and play... all day long. Oh, no, no electronics to soothe and comfort. And if you came back inside... you were doing chores!
And car seats - oh, please! Mom threw you in the back seat and you hung on. If you were lucky, you got the "safety arm" across the chest at the last moment if she had to stop suddenly, and if your head hit the dashboard, well that was your fault for calling "shot gun" in the first place!
See! That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy. You're spoiled rotten! You guys wouldn't have lasted five minutes back in 1970 or any time before!
#11. Saturday morning cartoons were the BEST, hands down. That memory made me smile! ;D ;D ;D
-
#11. Saturday morning cartoons were the BEST, hands down. That memory made me smile! ;D ;D ;D
That's why it's great I introduced my kids to the Boomerang channel. I get a bit of nostaglia if I watch with them.
-
13) And our parents told us to stay outside and play... all day long. Oh, no, no electronics to soothe and comfort. And if you came back inside... you were doing chores!
This is the one that brought the biggest smile to my face. You didn't dare stay home because Mom would "find something for you to do," all of it misery. I watched cartoons Saturday morning like everyone else, but I couldn't wait until it was 9 AM so I could go outside (Mom's rule, don't go out and wake the neighbors before 9 AM) and find my buddies and have some fun. I think we had a lot more fun than today's kids because of this.
-
Had to share this
If you are 36, or older, you might think this is hilarious!
When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious diatribes about how hard things were. When they were growing up; what with walking twenty-five miles to school every morning.... Uphill... Barefoot... BOTH ways...yadda, yadda, yadda
And I remember promising myself that when I grew up, there was no way in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on my kids about how hard I had it and how easy they've got it!
But now that I'm over the ripe old age of forty, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today. You've got it so easy! I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damn Utopia! And I hate to say it, but you kids today, you don't know how good you've got it!
1) I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have the Internet. If we wanted to know something, we had to go to the damn library and look it up ourselves, in the card catalog!!
2) There was no email!! We had to actually write somebody a letter - with a pen! Then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the mailbox, and it would take like a week to get there! Stamps were 10 cents!
3) Child Protective Services didn't care if our parents beat us. As a matter of fact, the parents of all my friends also had permission to kick our ass! Nowhere was safe!
4) There were no MP3's or Napsters or iTunes! If you wanted to steal music, you had to hitchhike to the record store and shoplift it yourself!
5) Or you had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio, and the DJ would usually talk over the beginning and @#*% it all up! There were no CD players! We had tape decks in our car. We'd play our favorite tape and "eject" it when finished, and then the tape would come undone rendering it useless. Cause, hey, that's how we rolled, Baby! Dig?
6) We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called, they got a busy signal, that's it!
7) There weren't any freakin' cell phones either. If you left the house, you just didn't make a damn call or receive one. You actually had to be out of touch with your "friends". OH MY GOSH !!! Think of the horror... not being in touch with someone 24/7!!! And then there's TEXTING. Yeah, right. Please! You kids have no idea how annoying you are.
And we didn't have fancy Caller ID either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was! It could be your school, your parents, your boss, your bookie, your drug dealer, the collection agent... you just didn't know!!! You had to pick it up and take your chances, mister!
9) We didn't have any fancy PlayStation or Xbox video games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600! With games like 'Space Invaders' and 'Asteroids'. Your screen guy was a little square! You actually had to use your imagination!!! And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen.. Forever! And you could never win. The game just kept getting harder and harder and faster and faster until you died! Just like LIFE!
10) You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! You were screwed when it came to channel surfing! You had to get off your ass and walk over to the TV to change the channel!!! NO REMOTES!!! Oh, no, what's the world coming to?!?!
11) There was no Cartoon Network either! You could only get cartoons on Saturday Morning. Do you hear what I'm saying? We had to wait ALL WEEK for cartoons, you spoiled little rat-bastards!
12) And we didn't have microwaves. If we wanted to heat something up, we had to use the stove! Imagine that!
13) And our parents told us to stay outside and play... all day long. Oh, no, no electronics to soothe and comfort. And if you came back inside... you were doing chores!
And car seats - oh, please! Mom threw you in the back seat and you hung on. If you were lucky, you got the "safety arm" across the chest at the last moment if she had to stop suddenly, and if your head hit the dashboard, well that was your fault for calling "shot gun" in the first place!
See! That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy. You're spoiled rotten! You guys wouldn't have lasted five minutes back in 1970 or any time before!
Yeah and freshman chicks were virgins.
-
This is the one that brought the biggest smile to my face. You didn't dare stay home because Mom would "find something for you to do," all of it misery. I watched cartoons Saturday morning like everyone else, but I couldn't wait until it was 9 AM so I could go outside (Mom's rule, don't go out and wake the neighbors before 9 AM) and find my buddies and have some fun. I think we had a lot more fun than today's kids because of this.
Yes, my wife and I laughed a lot on that one. We read this out loud to our kids.