MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Aughnanure on November 28, 2012, 09:19:10 PM
-
Former Big East insider: “Now is the time” to break away
http://blogs.mycentraljersey.com/hoopshaven/2012/11/28/former-big-east-insider-now-is-the-time-to-dissolve/
Today I spoke at length about the Big East’s crisis with a person who worked as a high-level administrator at multiple basketball-only schools in the conference. Among other things, we discussed the report by Kevin McNamara of the Providence Journal-Bulletin on the Catholic schools’ ability to dissolve the league if all seven voted to do so.
Presumably, those schools could then reclaim the Big East name (why would football-oriented schools want it?) and use their share of the considerable exit fees to start a basketball-oriented conference.
Here are highlights from the conversation:
“Now is the time (to dissolve). The basketball schools, they probably still have enough big names to have some leverage with TV. Pull a couple of A-10 schools and do it. I don’t know enough about what they’d be able to do (TV contract-wise), but I think you’d better make a move now or else you’re really going to get lost.”
Me: Why would Georgetown and St. John’s (according to McNamara’s story) be leading the fight to stay associated with football schools?
“Georgetown probably has more to do with Paul Tagliabue. He’s been somewhere behind the scenes with the Big East office in trying to make some of the football decisions and he’s a trustee for Georgetown.”
“St. John’s, I don’t know. It probably has to do with living in this whole Big East dream with the Garden and everything else. But it’s no longer the Big East as we know it or as anybody knows it. Maybe they think because they’re St. John’s and they’re in the biggest market, they hold all the leverage and they’ll be fine (no matter what happens).”
Me: It seems like the Catholic schools have not been on the same page on how to proceed. Is this the tipping point?
“I would think everything’s changed in the last two weeks with Rutgers leaving, and now Louisville. The core of the league is imploding. Not that Rutgers was glamorous, but Rutgers served its purpose geographically, in terms of academic profile, offering a lot of sports and of course football.”
“Rutgers was this nice comfortable piece of furniture that served its purpose and wasn’t going anywhere, and now it’s gone. (The Big Ten) is a great plan by Rutgers, happy for them, but I don’t know how they pulled it off. It had everybody else thinking, ‘Holy crap, what just happened here?’”
Me: Where does Seton Hall stand in terms of influence within the Catholic school faction?
“St. John’s is the player in the New York market. I don’t think they’d leave Seton Hall in the dust—Seton Hall still has enough brand recognition to be included (in any post-Big East scenario), but crazy things are happening and you just have no idea what discussions are going on with who.”
Me: If you were a power broker at Seton Hall, what would you be doing right now?
“There’s not really much you can do but make sure every discussion, every conversation, you’re involved as much as you can be. You don’t want to get left out. The problem in college sports is camaraderie is out the window these days. Every institution is on their own. Back in the Big East’s heyday their operating principle, and this came from Dave Gavitt, was we need each other and together we’re much stronger than any of us as individuals. The Big East was built on a handshake at a bar. They had a mutual understanding of what they should be and what their shared interests were.”
Me: Maybe the remaining founding schools need to be reminded of that credo.
“There’s got to be a sense of urgency here. The time to do it is now. Now is an opportunity to build something new, build a new brand, center it around Madison Square Garden. The worst thing that could happen is if and when the ACC brings their tournament to MSG. Believe me, that thought has been in a lot of peoples’ heads. You think Rick Pitino and Jim Boeheim aren’t going to go to a league meeting and say, ‘We’ve got to get our tournament to the Garden?’ The Big East has no more leverage at the (MSG) bargaining table. Who wants (games with) Tulane and Central Florida?”
Me: What kind of “new” Big East could hold off the ACC’s NYC invasion?
“Smaller is a better brand. My priority is getting a 10-12 team league. You add Xavier, Dayton, Butler. That would be my league. Then you would be contiguous (geographically) and you would have almost every major media market covered. I’d love to be able to sit down with ESPN with that league and say, ‘Show me the money.’
“To me, there are three priorities, assets, that you have. Get as good of a TV deal as you can based on the strength of the basketball schools. Retain the Big East name, and get an exclusive, multi-year agreement for the championship at MSG. That’s how you brand yourself. You can’t lose any of those assets, unless they hit a branding home run with a new name, or you’re really at risk.”
“If those three things can still be controlled, then you have to (dissolve). And do it before the ACC can start moving toward getting into the Garden.”
“That becomes a win-win for a viable league.”
-
Former Big East insider: “Now is the time” to break away
http://blogs.mycentraljersey.com/hoopshaven/2012/11/28/former-big-east-insider-now-is-the-time-to-dissolve/
Today I spoke at length about the Big East’s crisis with a person who worked as a high-level administrator at multiple basketball-only schools in the conference. Among other things, we discussed the report by Kevin McNamara of the Providence Journal-Bulletin on the Catholic schools’ ability to dissolve the league if all seven voted to do so.
Presumably, those schools could then reclaim the Big East name (why would football-oriented schools want it?) and use their share of the considerable exit fees to start a basketball-oriented conference.
Here are highlights from the conversation:
“Now is the time (to dissolve). The basketball schools, they probably still have enough big names to have some leverage with TV. Pull a couple of A-10 schools and do it. I don’t know enough about what they’d be able to do (TV contract-wise), but I think you’d better make a move now or else you’re really going to get lost.”
Me: Why would Georgetown and St. John’s (according to McNamara’s story) be leading the fight to stay associated with football schools?
“Georgetown probably has more to do with Paul Tagliabue. He’s been somewhere behind the scenes with the Big East office in trying to make some of the football decisions and he’s a trustee for Georgetown.”
“St. John’s, I don’t know. It probably has to do with living in this whole Big East dream with the Garden and everything else. But it’s no longer the Big East as we know it or as anybody knows it. Maybe they think because they’re St. John’s and they’re in the biggest market, they hold all the leverage and they’ll be fine (no matter what happens).”
Me: It seems like the Catholic schools have not been on the same page on how to proceed. Is this the tipping point?
“I would think everything’s changed in the last two weeks with Rutgers leaving, and now Louisville. The core of the league is imploding. Not that Rutgers was glamorous, but Rutgers served its purpose geographically, in terms of academic profile, offering a lot of sports and of course football.”
“Rutgers was this nice comfortable piece of furniture that served its purpose and wasn’t going anywhere, and now it’s gone. (The Big Ten) is a great plan by Rutgers, happy for them, but I don’t know how they pulled it off. It had everybody else thinking, ‘Holy crap, what just happened here?’”
Me: Where does Seton Hall stand in terms of influence within the Catholic school faction?
“St. John’s is the player in the New York market. I don’t think they’d leave Seton Hall in the dust—Seton Hall still has enough brand recognition to be included (in any post-Big East scenario), but crazy things are happening and you just have no idea what discussions are going on with who.”
Me: If you were a power broker at Seton Hall, what would you be doing right now?
“There’s not really much you can do but make sure every discussion, every conversation, you’re involved as much as you can be. You don’t want to get left out. The problem in college sports is camaraderie is out the window these days. Every institution is on their own. Back in the Big East’s heyday their operating principle, and this came from Dave Gavitt, was we need each other and together we’re much stronger than any of us as individuals. The Big East was built on a handshake at a bar. They had a mutual understanding of what they should be and what their shared interests were.”
Me: Maybe the remaining founding schools need to be reminded of that credo.
“There’s got to be a sense of urgency here. The time to do it is now. Now is an opportunity to build something new, build a new brand, center it around Madison Square Garden. The worst thing that could happen is if and when the ACC brings their tournament to MSG. Believe me, that thought has been in a lot of peoples’ heads. You think Rick Pitino and Jim Boeheim aren’t going to go to a league meeting and say, ‘We’ve got to get our tournament to the Garden?’ The Big East has no more leverage at the (MSG) bargaining table. Who wants (games with) Tulane and Central Florida?”
Me: What kind of “new” Big East could hold off the ACC’s NYC invasion?
“Smaller is a better brand. My priority is getting a 10-12 team league. You add Xavier, Dayton, Butler. That would be my league. Then you would be contiguous (geographically) and you would have almost every major media market covered. I’d love to be able to sit down with ESPN with that league and say, ‘Show me the money.’
“To me, there are three priorities, assets, that you have. Get as good of a TV deal as you can based on the strength of the basketball schools. Retain the Big East name, and get an exclusive, multi-year agreement for the championship at MSG. That’s how you brand yourself. You can’t lose any of those assets, unless they hit a branding home run with a new name, or you’re really at risk.”
“If those three things can still be controlled, then you have to (dissolve). And do it before the ACC can start moving toward getting into the Garden.”
“That becomes a win-win for a viable league.”
I think most of us are praying that it works out this way. A quality basketball only Big East would be near a best case scenario.
-
Former Big East insider: “Now is the time” to break away
“I would think everything’s changed in the last two weeks with Rutgers leaving, and now Louisville. The core of the league is imploding. Not that Rutgers was glamorous, but Rutgers served its purpose geographically, in terms of academic profile, offering a lot of sports and of course football.”
Rutgers was "the core" of the Big East. Gee, and all this time I thought it was Seton Hall.
-
This is much preferable than C-USA II.
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton/Creighton
SLU
Not as good as 2 years ago, but better than 10 years ago...
-
This is much preferable than C-USA II.
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton/Creighton
SLU
Not as good as 2 years ago, but better than 10 years ago...
Butler instead of SLU and don't even break into divisions and I'd be down this setup.
-
Where does Memphis fall in all of this?
-
This is much preferable than C-USA II.
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton/Creighton
SLU
Not as good as 2 years ago, but better than 10 years ago...
This plus Butler would consistently send 5 teams to the tournament each year. I would think ESPN would want to televise based on the TV markets involved.
-
Where does Memphis fall in all of this?
They have football, so they're probably going to end up wherever the Houston, UCF, SMU, etc.'s of the world end up.
-
The Metro.
The original Big East prevented this type of Catholic school conference from forming but it would be quite interesting to have this develop 35 years later. I don't think anyone would be crying that Notre Dame wasn't part of the conference!
-
Where does Memphis fall in all of this?
They should chase the football money or cancel the program.
-
Another benefit of keeping a league at 8 or 10 teams is the rivalries that develop from the home-and-home match ups. That was my favorite aspect of the GMC. Let the B-league football teams toil together in the Big Conference USA.
-
I would put Creighton in over Dayton in a 10 team league. They have a good team, play at the CenturyLink Center with a capacity of 17,260, and averaged 16,665 per game, 6th best in the country last year.
For a 12 team league I'd throw in St. Louis and Dayton.
For 14 teams I'd add Detroit and Richmond.
-
Where does Memphis fall in all of this?
If schools like Memphis, Cincy, and UConn want to play basketball (and maybe even all the other sports) with us but can find a football conference willing to take them on for just football, wouldn't we be stupid to say no? They could have a situation like when Temple played football in the MAC because the A10 didn't offer it or like what SDSU and BSU set up with the Big East and WAC. Sure, there's a chance they may leave one day, but it wouldn't be as crushing if we have a strong basketball-only contingent.
By the same token, wouldn't it be possible for all the basketball schools to form a basketball-only conference and dump ALL their other sports into local mid-major leagues. This would allow schools like Gonzaga and St Mary's to hoop with us without worrying about travel costs for soccer and cross-country. I gotta imagine the Horizon and MVC etc would be more than happy to take on MU volleyball or soccer.
-
It doesn't hurt to dream:
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Cincinnati
Creighton
SLU
Gonzaga
Or if we could convince BYU to join in BB move Cincy to the East and add BYU to the West for a 14 team league.
-
It doesn't hurt to dream:
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Cincinnati
Creighton
SLU
Gonzaga
Or if we could convince BYU to join in BB move Cincy to the East and add BYU to the West for a 14 team league.
If we can keep Cincinnati, then we should be able to and should want to keep Memphis. Dayton is west of Cincinnati. No way we get BYU or Gonzaga.
-
It doesn't hurt to dream:
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
Cincinnati
Creighton
SLU
Gonzaga
Or if we could convince BYU to join in BB move Cincy to the East and add BYU to the West for a 14 team league.
Butler?
-
Oops! Scratch Cincy and replace with Butler. Most likely a 12 team league. I'm watching an exciting Clippers-TWolves game! Too much of a stretch to add BYU and Gonzaga.
-
If we can keep Cincinnati, then we should be able to and should want to keep Memphis. Dayton is west of Cincinnati. No way we get BYU or Gonzaga.
Dayton is just east of Cincinnati. Agree that BYU & Gonzaga is a stretch.
-
Dayton is north of Cincy.
-
+1 - That too!
-
Me likeeeee.
Let's get this done. By Monday.
-
If you take the 7 BE schools and add Xavier, Butler and any of Dayton/SLU/Creighton, keep the Big East name and keep the tourney in MSG that would be a good situation for us to be in.
-
This has been the likely end-game for some time now. The basketball schools were just hoping the insanity would stop while the hybrid-league model was still viable. The insanity hasn't stopped. Time to move forward.
-
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
CincinnatiXavier
Creighton
SLU
GonzagaButler
Fixed and I think that is an amazing basketball conference given the circumstances, with a variety of styles and some natural rivalries possible in there. Also makes sense geographically as no one would have more than a 4 hour plan ride for anything. Also some strong non-revenue sport possibilities there especially in soccer and volleyball. Lacrosse we might need to land somewhere else.
-
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
CincinnatiXavier
Creighton
SLU
GonzagaButler
Fixed and I think that is an amazing basketball conference given the circumstances, with a variety of styles and some natural rivalries possible in there. Also makes sense geographically as no one would have more than a 4 hour plan ride for anything. Also some strong non-revenue sport possibilities there especially in soccer and volleyball. Lacrosse we might need to land somewhere else.
This is it.
-
Love it.
-
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
CincinnatiXavier
Creighton
SLU
GonzagaButler
Fixed and I think that is an amazing basketball conference given the circumstances, with a variety of styles and some natural rivalries possible in there. Also makes sense geographically as no one would have more than a 4 hour plan ride for anything. Also some strong non-revenue sport possibilities there especially in soccer and volleyball. Lacrosse we might need to land somewhere else.
Not to be a narcissist and quote myself....but I will.
You take this league to NBC and their sports network that is dying for content especially without NHL, get a 5 year contract. The games will be on all the time, hell they are still replaying equestrian events from the London Olympics, some of the bigger match ups get shown on NBC itself, and then you see if you can get a bigger deal when all the restructuring is done. Basically, you take the BEast exit money and the initial network deal to float/build the league for 5 years, hope like hell you get a couple of deep tourney runs out of members of the league and work like crazy to build brand recognition. You'll still get A talent, the key is the first 5 years in getting everything established.
-
And for those that worry about going with NBC Sports or CBS sports instead of the 4 letter network, I think they are in for a perfect storm of disaster in the next 5-10 years. All of these things will be hitting at roughly the same time
-Overpaying for NFL rights
-Concussion nightmare coming for the NFL and costs/impact to the game associated with it
-Same thing for college football
-Conference realignment/money grab in college football
-"Unpaid" labor force
-ESPN constantly raising their broadcast rights cost to the providers(they will push back)
-Content delivery will move from the cable providers to more web-based, ala cart(how much who knows, but it will impact revenues for ESPN)
-A generally souring public opinion of ESPN with the help of websites like Deadspin constantly hammering away at them.
-Proliferation of competitive sports networks
-not that any one network would take them down, but there will be an erosion of content over time that will catch up with them
ESPN isn't going away, but they might be in a much weaker position 5 years from now from a content position, so we build brand, get a good league and we can go to any network including ESPN with leverage.
-
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton
West:
Marquette
DePaul
CincinnatiXavier
Creighton
SLU
GonzagaButler
Fixed and I think that is an amazing basketball conference given the circumstances, with a variety of styles and some natural rivalries possible in there. Also makes sense geographically as no one would have more than a 4 hour plan ride for anything. Also some strong non-revenue sport possibilities there especially in soccer and volleyball. Lacrosse we might need to land somewhere else.
I could live with this.
I would also like these schools to make sure they go out and play a tough non-conf. schedule in order to keep the teams/conf. profiles up. It's important for this conference to play a lot of major conf. schools in order to keep of the perception that the "New Big East" is a "major conference".
These schools can't play a bunch of cupcakes, and then play each other in conf. and expect to stay nationally relevant.
-
I could live with this.
I would also like these schools to make sure they go out and play a tough non-conf. schedule in order to keep the teams/conf. profiles up. It's important for this conference to play a lot of major conf. schools in order to keep of the perception that the "New Big East" is a "major conference".
These schools can't play a bunch of cupcakes, and then play each other in conf. and expect to stay nationally relevant.
Completely agree. This league would also have the advantage of focusing on basketball, the other big conference teams will be focused on football first as the revenue generator and basketball second. Some recruits will be attracted to the "I am the man on campus" thought.
-
If it happens, I'd STRONGLY prefer to keep it at 10, at least for now. That way we can play a full round robin 18 game schedule with home-and-home against everyone. Build up better rivalries, better match-ups for TV, less mouths to feed, keep it focused for now.
Also, the more I think about it, the more I really think the time is now. We could make a huge publicity splash, with the way all this conference crap is going we could come out and say college football is ruining college basketball and we're here to make a stand and fight for college basketball because that's our #1 priority. We care more about basketball than everyone else and this is the premiere place for players to come and play, and true fans of the game to watch. Stake our claim now before we get lost in the shuffle. All the schools can use this as a huge opportunity to establish their identity. We are scrappy private colleges in urban areas serving a higher purpose, with an unmatched commitment to basketball.
If we wait around a few years to cash all the remaining pay-outs and units from the departees, the Big East brand will continue to be diluted. All the conferences will settle in on their final structure, the story will be over, and we'll look like the left-overs doing something out of desperation because there's nothing left to do. Also, the ACC will have more time to weasel their way into MSG. It might cost us financially short-term, but it would be far better for our brand identity as a group, which is really what playing basketball is about for us anyway, a way to raise the profile of our schools.
-
I could live with this.
I would also like these schools to make sure they go out and play a tough non-conf. schedule in order to keep the teams/conf. profiles up. It's important for this conference to play a lot of major conf. schools in order to keep of the perception that the "New Big East" is a "major conference".
These schools can't play a bunch of cupcakes, and then play each other in conf. and expect to stay nationally relevant.
Agree. I like 12 teams as well for that reason; it presents a natural 16 game schedule which gives more slots for out of conference flexibility but still enough size to not beat up on each other so much it makes it difficult to get 6+ NCAA bids.
-
The key to all of this is "NOW"
While the bball schools hold the advantage and voting power. Otherwise the cast offs from the "football" schools will regain the power. And the conference will be a cluster $%^& of Houston, Tulane, etc. The schedule will be a joke and we will be unidentifiable in a sea of 25 teams that nobody cares about.
Make no mistake the football schools would do exactly the same thing if they were in our position. We have what? 6 months till Temple gets a vote? NOW...
-
12 Team League
East:
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Dayton Richmond/VCU
West:
Marquette
DePaul
CincinnatiXavier
Creighton
SLU
GonzagaButler
Fixed and I think that is an amazing basketball conference given the circumstances, with a variety of styles and some natural rivalries possible in there. Also makes sense geographically as no one would have more than a 4 hour plan ride for anything. Also some strong non-revenue sport possibilities there especially in soccer and volleyball. Lacrosse we might need to land somewhere else.
I don't think you'd split up Dayton and Xavier. I'd rather go Richmond (private, big endowment) or VCU and really hold down the east coast. Dayton would be a better option for a 15 or 16 team league.
-
Why do people want to go any higher than 10? Every game against SLU, Creighton or Richmond means we likely lose a game against Georgetown, Villanova, or St. Johns.
-
I don't think you'd split up Dayton and Xavier. I'd rather go Richmond (private, big endowment) or VCU and really hold down the east coast. Dayton would be a better option for a 15 or 16 team league.
Plus I still hold a grudge against Dayton for that shellacking we took, what like 3 years ago?
-
Plus I still hold a grudge against Dayton for that shellacking we took, what like 3 years ago?
My grudge goes back to all the screwjobs we'd get whenever we played down there. The officiating in that 2003 game was a travesty.
-
Why do people want to go any higher than 10?
Because I think there's a pretty deep crop of candidates to get to 12 w/ VCU, Butler, Creighton, Xavier, St. Louis, Richmond, Wichita St, Dayton...
...And to be honest, they help the league look better w/ the dead-weight the league will be carrying with programs that have had little national success/attention for the past 8 years (DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall). I actually think those programs will be ready to really thrive in this league - but just from outward perception currently - there're the weakest part.
I'm also a fan of divisions or pods (if 16), because it gives teams and fans multiple things to win and shoot for, rather than always finishing just 7th.
-
How do we petition the Directors of Athletics/presidents to get this done...pronto? ;D
-
I'm liking some variation of this idea, but here's one other thought to keep in mind: The conference landscape will be changing for years, and if, for example, the ACC is weakened enough, more schools might become available for future expansion. I'm even thinking about some schools that offer football now but that might decide to cut their programs (sound familiar?). One possible example: Wake Forest. The Demon Deacons have a nice basketball history but haven't been significant, or any good, in football for a long, long time. Schools like that could end up joining a "basketball-only" conference down the road.
-
How do we petition the Directors of Athletics/presidents to get this done...pronto? ;D
Wait, they don't already read MUScoop religiously?
-
Because I think there's a pretty deep crop of candidates to get to 12 w/ VCU, Butler, Creighton, Xavier, St. Louis, Richmond, Wichita St, Dayton...
...And to be honest, they help the league look better w/ the dead-weight the league will be carrying with programs that have had little national success/attention for the past 8 years (DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall). I actually think those programs will be ready to really thrive in this league - but just from outward perception currently - there're the weakest part.
I'm also a fan of divisions or pods (if 16), because it gives teams multiple things to win and shoot for, rather than always finishing just 7th.
We might get there eventually, but I'd rather keep it tight and focused for now (Xavier, Dayton, Butler). Every game against VCU, Creighton, St. Louis, Richmond, Wichita St means we lose a game against someone like G-Town, Nova or St. Johns.
-
“Now is the time (to dissolve). The basketball schools, they probably still have enough big names to have some leverage with TV. Pull a couple of A-10 schools and do it. I don’t know enough about what they’d be able to do (TV contract-wise), but I think you’d better make a move now or else you’re really going to get lost.”
Credibility lost in the first paragraph ....
-
Because I think there's a pretty deep crop of candidates to get to 12 w/ VCU, Butler, Creighton, Xavier, St. Louis, Richmond, Wichita St, Dayton...
...And to be honest, they help the league look better w/ the dead-weight the league will be carrying with programs that have had little national success/attention for the past 8 years (DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall). I actually think those programs will be ready to really thrive in this league - but just from outward perception currently - there're the weakest part.
I'm also a fan of divisions or pods (if 16), because it gives teams multiple things to win and shoot for, rather than always finishing just 7th.
12 teams gives you a nice Tournament format as well, but I wouldn't want to go more than that. The strength of this conference would be its depth.
-
this sounds great but what is the mechanism for making it happen? i just dont know how it comes about or who is representing the "new league". i still think it's more viable/realistic that all 7 teams just jump into the A10 given their established infrastructure.
-
How do we petition the Directors of Athletics/presidents to get this done...pronto? ;D
Maybe Ners can write a love letter to Buzz again.
(http://www.mylays.net/myspace-layouts/thumbs/myspace_layout_the-game---shots-fired.jpg)
-
this sounds great but what is the mechanism for making it happen? i just dont know how it comes about or who is representing the "new league". i still think it's more viable/realistic that all 7 teams just jump into the A10 given their established infrastructure.
The mechanism is at hand. The bball schools currently hold enough votes to make things happen.
Step 1) Extend the time period that allows Temple to gain voting rights.(dirty pool, but what are the football schools doing to us?)
Step 2) If you dont want to do step 1, then rescind the membership of all of the new football schools.
Step 3) The other "better football schools" uconn, cincy etc were gonna leave anyway.
This way we keep the Big East name and can still collect the exit fees from the remaining football schools when they go.
Is it hardball? Definately. But what hasnt been lately with all of the re-alignment stuff?
-
Because I think there's a pretty deep crop of candidates to get to 12 w/ VCU, Butler, Creighton, Xavier, St. Louis, Richmond, Wichita St, Dayton...
...And to be honest, they help the league look better w/ the dead-weight the league will be carrying with programs that have had little national success/attention for the past 8 years (DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall). I actually think those programs will be ready to really thrive in this league - but just from outward perception currently - there're the weakest part.
I'm also a fan of divisions or pods (if 16), because it gives teams and fans multiple things to win and shoot for, rather than always finishing just 7th.
Agree. And too many MU/Georgetown, MU/Xavier, etc. head-to-heads can hurt tournament chances for the conference. Plus, while it may offer more "premiere" games to schedule with a smaller conference, it also offers less total games. Whether you're looking to pitch to ESPN, which you need a game when they want it because the premiere matchups will still play second fiddle to BCS leagues, or the NBC which just needs some programming a few more schools gives you a few more games to televise. 12 teams playing 16 games gives more games than 10 playing 18, 12 playing 18 games or 14 teams allows for more games. And, as noted above, the pool of potential teams to add to the current BE core sweeten the pot since they're much more "televisable" than Providence and DePaul currently are.
-
Yep, if you could get to 12 or 14 with Xavier, Butler and some combination of Dayton, SLU, Creighton, VCU, Richmond and keep the Big East name, the tournament at MSG and a decent TV deal, I'd say do it today. I would be pretty happy with that outcome given the circumstances. I'd much prefer that to Conference-USA version 2.0.
-
Interesting:
If you only took 10 today, that would give you flexibility to add 4-6 more in a handful of years. There could be some pretty nice options depending how everything shakes out.
At the rate the landscape is changing, that might be a fantastic move, or it could also backfire.
-
Not to be a narcissist and quote myself....but I will.
You take this league to NBC and their sports network that is dying for content especially without NHL, get a 5 year contract. The games will be on all the time, hell they are still replaying equestrian events from the London Olympics, some of the bigger match ups get shown on NBC itself, and then you see if you can get a bigger deal when all the restructuring is done. Basically, you take the BEast exit money and the initial network deal to float/build the league for 5 years, hope like hell you get a couple of deep tourney runs out of members of the league and work like crazy to build brand recognition. You'll still get A talent, the key is the first 5 years in getting everything established.
Q: How do we make the ECU's and Tulane's go away, then, without paying them off to leave? Can they just be booted out, because if this conference retains the Big East name...then you can't do that.
Unless, it's just a separate league....which if it is, I just missed a couple of the previous messages. Sorry.
-
Q: How do we make the ECU's and Tulane's go away, then, without paying them off to leave? Can they just be booted out, because if this conference retains the Big East name...then you can't do that.
Unless, it's just a separate league....which if it is, I just missed a couple of the previous messages. Sorry.
The basketball only schools, if they act unanimously, have the power to dissolve the conference, without penalty or input from the foot ball programs. But only until July, when Temple, UCF, SMU, Houston and Memphis become voting members and could block such a move.
I'm not sure who retains the name "Big East" if that happens, but I doubt SMU, Houston, Memphis, etc., would fight very hard to retain it.
-
Interesting:
If you only took 10 today, that would give you flexibility to add 4-6 more in a handful of years. There could be some pretty nice options depending how everything shakes out.
At the rate the landscape is changing, that might be a fantastic move, or it could also backfire.
Go to 12, you get more total league games to sell, and you still have room to go to 16 when the landscape shakes out.
-
I'm not sure about taking anyone from the Missouri Valley. I think between current A10 teams and Big East defects, there'd be plenty for a 10-12 team league. Creighton is solid this year, but the MVC is up and down every couple of years - for example, if we did this 5 years ago, we'd want Southern Illinois becuase they were the consistent NCAA tourney team.
-
I'm not sure about taking anyone from the Missouri Valley. I think between current A10 teams and Big East defects, there'd be plenty for a 10-12 team league. Creighton is solid this year, but the MVC is up and down every couple of years - for example, if we did this 5 years ago, we'd want Southern Illinois becuase they were the consistent NCAA tourney team.
Creighton fits the model because it's:
a) Private/Catholic
b) In a metro area
c) Has a solid fanbase (has finished in top 25 in attendance seven years running, including 6th overall last year).
SIU is none of the above.
-
Here is the mechanism
Current Big East members(2012) with cross outs for teams leaving and bold for those with current voting rights
Louisville
Notre Dame
Pitt
Syracuse
Rutgers
Marquette
Georgetown
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Villanova
USF
St Johns
Seton Hall
Providence
Temple
New members coming in
Houston
Memphis
SMU
UCF
Tulane
So you get
Marquette
Georgetown
DePaul
Villanova
St Johns
Seton Hall
To vote Temple, UConn, Cinncy, and USF out(Temple doesn't have a vote so the basketball schools have the required 2/3 majority 7-3). You then vote to rescind the offers to the new five and extend offers to at least Xavier, Butler, and SLU and I think definitely Dayton and Creighton to get to 12.
You then shop that to a network and scene
You are welcome ;D
-
Creighton fits the model because it's:
a) Private/Catholic
b) In a metro area
c) Has a solid fanbase (has finished in top 25 in attendance seven years running, including 6th overall last year).
SIU is none of the above.
+1
-
To vote Temple, UConn, Cinncy, and USF out(Temple doesn't have a vote so the basketball schools have the required 2/3 majority 7-3). You then vote to rescind the offers to the new five and extend offers to at least Xavier, Butler, and SLU and I think definitely Dayton and Creighton to get to 12.
I understand not letting FB schools join to maintain the majority vote, but why vote out UConn, Cincy, and USF? Keep their basketball around until they find a home, and make them pay their exit fees once they do.
-
I understand not letting FB schools join to maintain the majority vote, but why vote out UConn, Cincy, and USF? Keep their basketball around until they find a home, and make them pay their exit fees once they do.
Because my understanding is the threshold to dismiss teams is a 2/3 vote and when Temple gets a vote in 6 months the basketball only schools lose that threshold. Then they would lose the ability to rescind the outstanding offers because Temple, USF, UConn, and Cinncy want to keep football. So to rescind you have to kick out those 3. Plus UConn and Cinncy are fighting to get into the ACC anyway. Their buyouts are the cost of getting a 12 team all basketball league that is stable.
-
Like others have mentioned, I'm in the camp of keeping the conference as small as possible for at least the first few years and not adding programs like Dayton and Creighton. Once the fate of the Big East/ACC is determined and the realignment is done, I think it would a smart move to take a look at some of the schools that get left out (Cincy, UCONN, Memphis, Temple, and maybe some surprising ones like Duke and Wake Forest).
Don't offer football for the conference, and make it so it could never be an option. This hybrid model wouldn't work in the next 5 years as realignment continues but once the deals are in place and it's all over, the schools that were left out would at least be in a high major basketball conference (maybe the best one, who knows).
A conference of MU, GTOWN, NOVA, St. Johns, Providence, Seton Hall, Depaul plus 2 programs (Xavier and ____ ) could survive a few years on their own. Then add the top teams that are left out and you have a nice bball conference. Don't be too quick to add the good mid-majors just yet cause that will always be an option.
-
I understand not letting FB schools join to maintain the majority vote, but why vote out UConn, Cincy, and USF? Keep their basketball around until they find a home, and make them pay their exit fees once they do.
Because they WILL screw us, Samwell style.
-
Because they WILL screw us, Samwell style.
Exactly!
They will turn it into CUSA 2.0. They want a piece of the football action and just like us on this board are only thinking of THEIR best interests. If we keep them around they will keep the Tulanes, ECUs, Houstons etc. It will be a joke. Consider what they might do once the football schools have the majority again. Vote us out? I wouldnt doubt it.
-
Because they WILL screw us, Samwell style.
What, what?
-
Here is the mechanism
Current Big East members(2012) with cross outs for teams leaving and bold for those with current voting rights
Louisville
Notre Dame
Pitt
Syracuse
Rutgers
Marquette
Georgetown
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Villanova
USF
St Johns
Seton Hall
Providence
Temple
New members coming in
Houston
Memphis
SMU
UCF
Tulane
So you get
Marquette
Georgetown
DePaul
Villanova
St Johns
Seton Hall
To vote Temple, UConn, Cinncy, and USF out(Temple doesn't have a vote so the basketball schools have the required 2/3 majority 7-3). You then vote to rescind the offers to the new five and extend offers to at least Xavier, Butler, and SLU and I think definitely Dayton and Creighton to get to 12.
You then shop that to a network and scene
You are welcome ;D
thanks, if this can legitimately happen then i'm all for it. would be a huge step in the right direction. i also think partnering with one of the new networks, be it NBC Sports or CBS, would be beneficial and easier than ESPN.
i am still skeptical but let's hope they figure this out.
-
Because my understanding is the threshold to dismiss teams is a 2/3 vote and when Temple gets a vote in 6 months the basketball only schools lose that threshold. Then they would lose the ability to rescind the outstanding offers because Temple, USF, UConn, and Cinncy want to keep football. So to rescind you have to kick out those 3. Plus UConn and Cinncy are fighting to get into the ACC anyway. Their buyouts are the cost of getting a 12 team all basketball league that is stable.
Yes, I understand the need to maintain the majority. That's why I didn't list Temple. Get rid of them and rescind the other invites before Temple gets a vote. Then the BB schools still have a majority. Everyone will know that UConn, Cincy, and USF will be looking desperately to move out. They might as well pay when they do. And in the meantime, the league can work on adding the other basketball schools. Maybe I am still missing something.
-
The one problem with keeping it small in the hope that you can add others later is that you don't have a buffer if you lose more teams. Keep in mind, defections can still work both ways, especially if any of the power conferences start adding bball only members.
-
What, what?
Exactly. And in this case, WE would be Samwell.
Now is the time for this.
-
The one problem with keeping it small in the hope that you can add others later is that you don't have a buffer if you lose more teams. Keep in mind, defections can still work both ways, especially if any of the power conferences start adding bball only members.
In addition, the smaller schools without a 'real' conference might regress to the point that it would be difficult to find value from adding them.
-
FWIW, if this concept were to happen, I'd go to NBC Sports over CBS Sports because I think NBC is more of a basic cable channel whereas CBS is a sports tier channel.
-
If I could vote for a Catholic member, I'd definitely cast one for Dayton.
-UD Arena is a great place to watch a game and is easy within reasonable distance to alums throughout the midwest.
-They have solid attendance figures in the A10. They would get a boost with better competition coming to town.
-They are NOT fairweather fans.
-The city of Dayton supports all the teams in the city.
- There is a reason they have hosted more NCAA tournament games than any venue in the country (even if they are the play-in games)
- The Class A minor league team in Dayton has the all-time record for most consecutive sell-outs of any professional sports team in the country at 815. They have a current streak going at 913 games. Last season, they drew an average of 8500 fans, third in the country (only two AAA teams beat them).
It's definitely a sports town and their gameday atmosphere is solid. Just seems like a no-brainer to me....moreso than SLU. Hell, I'd prefer Dayton over SHU as well. And even DePaul. Unfortunately, markets are fairly important. However, I'd rather have great competition than great markets with 'meh' teams. Let the football schools builds conferences around market size.
-
Exactly. And in this case, WE would be Samwell.
I'd rather be Butters.
-
I think if this Conference was to eventually take shape, taking on a Catholic identity isn't a good idea.
-
If I could vote for a Catholic member, I'd definitely cast one for Dayton.
-UD Arena is a great place to watch a game and is easy within reasonable distance to alums throughout the midwest.
-They have solid attendance figures in the A10. They would get a boost with better competition coming to town.
-They are NOT fairweather fans.
-The city of Dayton supports all the teams in the city.
- There is a reason they have hosted more NCAA tournament games than any venue in the country (even if they are the play-in games)
- The Class A minor league team in Dayton has the all-time record for most consecutive sell-outs of any professional sports team in the country at 815. They have a current streak going at 913 games. Last season, they drew an average of 8500 fans, third in the country (only two AAA teams beat them).
It's definitely a sports town and their gameday atmosphere is solid. Just seems like a no-brainer to me....moreso than SLU. Hell, I'd prefer Dayton over SHU as well. And even DePaul. Unfortunately, markets are fairly important. However, I'd rather have great competition than great markets with 'meh' teams. Let the football schools builds conferences around market size.
Love this summary on Dayton.
-
I'd rather be Butters.
Canada on Strike is one of the best episodes of SP. Such a perfect mocking of the writers strike.
I think if this Conference was to eventually take shape, taking on a Catholic identity isn't a good idea.
I agree here. While many of the potential candidates are Catholic, not all are, especially once we look at hypothetical expansion.
-
I think if this Conference was to eventually take shape, taking on a Catholic identity isn't a good idea.
I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing schools like VCU and George Mason in such a conference.
-
Love this summary on Dayton.
Dayton was #28 in the country in attendance last year, which is pretty impressive.
Also, Creighton was #6. Behind only UK, Cuse, L'Ville, UNC, and Wisc.
-
Anyone have Father P's number? This should be a done deal before spring. I'm mostly serious, this is the way out of all this mess and all the parties involved do/should want it.
-
Canada on Strike is one of the best episodes of SP. Such a perfect mocking of the writers strike.
I'm just glad that Rocky isn't trying to get some of that internet money from Scoop, friend.
-
I'm just glad that Rocky isn't trying to get some of that internet money from Scoop, friend.
I'm not your friend, buddy ;D
-
I'm not your friend, buddy ;D
We're setting you adrift idiot. Good luck with the Danish
-
So with all of these good ideas, is there a way for us/someone to present this to the boss at Marquette? ?-(
-
I'm not your friend, buddy ;D
Don't.....call...... me..... Buddy..... guy.
-
Don't.....call...... me..... Buddy..... guy.
I'M NOT YOUR GUY, FRIEND.
-
So with all of these good ideas, is there a way for us/someone to present this to the boss at Marquette? ?-(
I have an inkling there is more to creating a conference than just slapping some schools together on an internet message board...
-
I think they are pretty good ideas from MU's perspective. I wouldn't assume that the other bball only schools in the BE feel the same way though.
-
I have an inkling there is more to creating a conference than just slapping some schools together on an internet message board...
Nah, there's no way that can be right. I'm pretty sure we've covered all of the bases here far better than the people paid to do such things.
-
Scoff all you want but the history of business is lousy with examples of good ideas missed because no one stepped back to look at it or outsides make suggestions and/or tweaks that made a difference. I would hope the powers that be have thought of these ideas but don't assume it.
This is no different than any other business deal, and just need to make sure all the interested parties are getting more value in the future than they are currently getting and it's a done deal.
I just hope the BoT isn't involved in any of this otherwise we're screwed....that is the poster child for group think and in the box thinking.
-
...please MWC, grab Boise and SDSU back.
Big East could be looking West for next team
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/jeremy-fowler/21190809/big-east-could-be-looking-west-for-next-team
The Big East is looking to add one more football member after its poaching of Tulane and East Carolina from Conference USA this week. I'm told they aren't revisiting the C-USA for that team at this point.
They could be looking West in efforts to pair Boise State and San Diego State with a friend and stabilze their coast-to-coast blueprint. Who's the Best of the Rest at this point? Could be talking about Fresno State, which is sort of a West Coast version of East Carolina. This would weaken the Mountain West, which has been working to lure Boise State and SDSU back into the fold.
The Big East would love BYU, which remains independent. The Big East doesn't know where BYU stands after talks recently stalled in light of Rutgers' defection.
The Big East and Mountain West are in interesting spots because of their television negotiations. Big East commissioner Mike Aresco is working toward a long-term media rights deal, which must be difficult considering all the movement. And the Mountain West has been in talks to extend its deal with CBS. If the MWC could somehow get stronger in the next few weeks, that would bode well for negotiations.
Also, check out colleague Dennis Dodd's blog on Idaho, New Mexico State and Georgia Southern in line for the recently poached Sun Belt. I'm told Sun Belt membership wants to move quickly but also wants to see what else C-USA does first.
There's buzz about C-USA adding Western Kentucky and possibly New Mexico State. Either way, NMSU is well-positioned to escape independence. Great time for the Aggies.
-
Yep, there are at least 100 iterations to chose from these boards as to which scouts should be in or out - what's the problem? Go forth and make it happen....
Nah, there's no way that can be right. I'm pretty sure we've covered all of the bases here far better than the people paid to do such things.
-
...please MWC, grab Boise and SDSU back.
Big East could be looking West for next team
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/jeremy-fowler/21190809/big-east-could-be-looking-west-for-next-team
The Big East is looking to add one more football member after its poaching of Tulane and East Carolina from Conference USA this week. I'm told they aren't revisiting the C-USA for that team at this point.
They could be looking West in efforts to pair Boise State and San Diego State with a friend and stabilze their coast-to-coast blueprint. Who's the Best of the Rest at this point? Could be talking about Fresno State, which is sort of a West Coast version of East Carolina. This would weaken the Mountain West, which has been working to lure Boise State and SDSU back into the fold.
The Big East would love BYU, which remains independent. The Big East doesn't know where BYU stands after talks recently stalled in light of Rutgers' defection.
The Big East and Mountain West are in interesting spots because of their television negotiations. Big East commissioner Mike Aresco is working toward a long-term media rights deal, which must be difficult considering all the movement. And the Mountain West has been in talks to extend its deal with CBS. If the MWC could somehow get stronger in the next few weeks, that would bode well for negotiations.
Also, check out colleague Dennis Dodd's blog on Idaho, New Mexico State and Georgia Southern in line for the recently poached Sun Belt. I'm told Sun Belt membership wants to move quickly but also wants to see what else C-USA does first.
There's buzz about C-USA adding Western Kentucky and possibly New Mexico State. Either way, NMSU is well-positioned to escape independence. Great time for the Aggies.
The BE, from the standpoint of a football conference, reminds of the couple that lived in the old, beat-up house in the movie, Book of Eli. They're nearly dead yet stubbornly resilient and simply wont die. In fact, it's a miracle they have endured for as long as they have. Someone simply needs to end their misery.
-
This is all moot. Have we all forgotten that the world is ending in 3 weeks?
-
If we really tried to go west and grab Gonzaga. I know, I know...but Santa Francisco, Sant Clara, Pepperdine, and Loyola Marymount have great overall athletic departments.
West
Georgetown
Villanova
Richmond/VCU
St. John's
Seton Hall
Providence
Central
Xavier
Butler
St Louis
Marquette
DePaul
Creighton/Dayton
West
Gonzaga
St. Mary's/San Francisco
Wichita St
Loyola Marymount
Pepperdine
Santa Clara/Creighton
-
There's no need and little to be gained from a Catholic-identified or strictly urban school league. Most importantly, it could preclude additions of non-Catholic schools down the road (e.g., Butler, VCU, or hell even UMass). The Catholic schools all maintain their own identity just fine, there's no need to band a bunch together because the basketball would suffer for it.
-
There's no need and little to be gained from a Catholic-identified or strictly urban school league. Most importantly, it could preclude additions of non-Catholic schools down the road (e.g., Butler, VCU, or hell even UMass). The Catholic schools all maintain their own identity just fine, there's no need to band a bunch together because the basketball would suffer for it.
I really don't think people are pushing this. Basketball schools just are mainly located in urban areas - if you can call downtown Omaha urban that is.
-
There's no need and little to be gained from a Catholic-identified or strictly urban school league. Most importantly, it could preclude additions of non-Catholic schools down the road (e.g., Butler, VCU, or hell even UMass). The Catholic schools all maintain their own identity just fine, there's no need to band a bunch together because the basketball would suffer for it.
Reminds me of something I heard in Dr. McMahon's Irish history class a ways back. "Northern Ireland isn't a battle between Catholics and Protestants. It's a battle between Republicans who happen to be Catholic, and Unionists who happen to be Protestant."
Butler can and should be sought out. Temple, Memphis or Cincy too if they can park their football somewhere else (but in today's environment, that may not be realistic). What's being proposed isn't a Catholic-only conference. It's a high-level basketball-first conference, many of whose members are coincidentally Catholic.