MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MisterJaylenBrownMU on June 07, 2007, 11:47:15 AM

Title: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: MisterJaylenBrownMU on June 07, 2007, 11:47:15 AM
"Jerry Sichting, who served on the Timberwolves coaching staff under Flip Saunders, will return to coach on Wittman's staff. Sichting served as a college assistant at Marquette last year.

Wittman is keeping two members of last year's staff, Bob Ociepka and Rex Kalamian, and will add one other coach. "

http://www.startribune.com/507/story/1230351.html
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on June 07, 2007, 12:51:37 PM
Here's another one Crean ran off the program! ::)
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: The Lens on June 07, 2007, 01:05:42 PM
I'm guessing by you smiley face that you're being sarcastic.  So does that mean you think that having assistants 1 and done is good for the program?  I ask this question seriously. 

I think you could say yes, that TC learns things from each person that comes thru.

&

I think you could say no, a consistent staff helps build continuity.  Strengthens the message, reinforces the tradition.

Personally I fall in the latter camp.  I am very pleased that Coach Rab continues to stay here.  If he were by Crean's side for 5-10 more years I see that only as a positive.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Harrison on June 07, 2007, 01:17:17 PM
I do not think losing one assistant is a bad thing for the program, even if you lose one every year.  Same with transfers.  Problem with Crean, is there for a while he was lsoing more than 1 at a time. And a number of assistants were leaving for lesser or lateral jobs and it was clear they were no fan of Crean's style.  1 a year or so will not hurt the program, and Sichting did not participate on the recruiting trail anyway so no fall off there.  Buckley steps in no problem.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: muarmy81 on June 07, 2007, 01:22:48 PM
I agree, if they're leaving for better jobs it has to be seen as a compliment because that means you have quality personnel on your staff but if they leave for a lateral or worse job then there's probably something else going on.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on June 07, 2007, 03:49:29 PM
I'm guessing by you smiley face that you're being sarcastic.  So does that mean you think that having assistants 1 and done is good for the program?  I ask this question seriously. 

I think you could say yes, that TC learns things from each person that comes thru.

&

I think you could say no, a consistent staff helps build continuity.  Strengthens the message, reinforces the tradition.

Personally I fall in the latter camp.  I am very pleased that Coach Rab continues to stay here.  If he were by Crean's side for 5-10 more years I see that only as a positive.

I would love it if we had assistants stay longer... but when a guy leaves for an NBA job, you can't hold that against Coach Crean.

A lot of people tend to blame Crean for the coaching turnover... obviously he is the head coach, so he is accountable... but when assistants are leaving for better jobs I don't think that means coach Crean is running them out of here like some people like to imply.

Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: herboturbo on June 07, 2007, 05:17:20 PM
And a number of assistants were leaving for lesser or lateral jobs and it was clear they were no fan of Crean's style. 


I'm sorry but that is flat out untrue revisionist history
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 08, 2007, 07:57:26 AM
If Sichting was on my staff to work on developing people and couldn't correct DJ's shooting form one iota to make him at least an average shooter----I'd have run him off too!

What good wwas he?
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 08, 2007, 09:05:55 AM
Murff, you don't know (and neither do I) how many hours any member of MU's coaching staff worked with DJ to get him to improve his form. It could have been hundreds of hours. You make everything sound so easy. I'm sure a few hours with you and Shaq would be a 90 percent free-throw shooter. If you were a hitting coach you'd probably have the White Sox all hitting .325 instead of .225. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 08, 2007, 09:16:41 AM
I agree with ecompt here. There are certain basket-attacking types, such as Wade and Jordan (a couple of high profile examples!) who appear to be horrible shooters based on their percentage from beyond 15 feet. However, when you watch them with the naked eye, you can see in form and rhythm that they have the ability to shoot the basketball effectively. Early in his career, Jordan was not a great shooter, but became a very decent shooter as he got older (his career shooting percentage was over 50 percent before he returned with the Wizards, by the way) and Wade is clearly improved. Pippen was the same way.

With James, I don't see that ability at all. Ecompt uses Shaq as an example in jest, but I think it's an apt comparison. Shaq does not have the ability, for whatever reason, to shoot the basketball. I don't think James does, either. His situation is not nearly as dire as Shaq's, but looking at him shoot -- some wide right, some left, some long, some short -- leads me to believe that Sichting could have worked with him day and night (which he probably has) and he's still going to be a great athlete with no ability to shoot. With that glaring deficiency, he would have had to display uncanny ball-handling ability and a knack for getting others involved. Does anybody think that describes his game? I don't
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Harrison on June 08, 2007, 10:12:07 AM
And a number of assistants were leaving for lesser or lateral jobs and it was clear they were no fan of Crean's style. 



I'm sorry but that is flat out untrue revisionist history

Sorry got a couple buddies very connected with Milwaukee hoops. 

Pannagio and Strohm?  Are they revisionist history? Strohm left with no job at all .
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Coobeys Oil Depot on June 08, 2007, 10:43:26 AM
And a number of assistants were leaving for lesser or lateral jobs and it was clear they were no fan of Crean's style. 



I'm sorry but that is flat out untrue revisionist history

Sorry got a couple buddies very connected with Milwaukee hoops. 

Pannagio and Strohm?  Are they revisionist history? Strohm left with no job at all .

You assert that a "number" of assistants left for lower level positions but that's only two (and Pannagio was a step up careerwise). There's no question that a couple guys didn't work out. Just as with any other work setting there will be personality issues. Most of the ones who have left have moved up in rank: Buckley, Horn, K, Wardle, Townsend, Prileau (sp?). Pannagio and Sichting were always going to be quickie in and outs regardless of personality compatability (Sichting being friends with Crean and, according to you, Pannagio not so much) because of their professional basketball backgrounds. There were problems with Strohm but it seems that may not be under Crean's program alone. Personally, Coach Strohm is someone I always liked and I think the Berkowitz situation put the final nail in the coffin.

I think it's the same with player transfers. The majority of them left simply to better their position but there are a couple that didn't leave on good terms. Not everything is mint chocolate chip ice cream.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on June 08, 2007, 12:21:47 PM
And a number of assistants were leaving for lesser or lateral jobs and it was clear they were no fan of Crean's style. 



I'm sorry but that is flat out untrue revisionist history

Sorry got a couple buddies very connected with Milwaukee hoops. 

Pannagio and Strohm?  Are they revisionist history? Strohm left with no job at all .

Let's go through each one and put it in perspective.


Tim Buckley left (and came back....that kills your whole theory right there) to become a HEAD COACH at Ball State
Darrin Horn left to become a HEAD COACH at Western Kentucky
Dwyane Stephens left to become the #1 Assistant at Michigan State...his alma mater
Tod Kolwacyk left to become the HEAD COACH at UWGB
Kyle Green left to become the HEAD COACH at Lewis
Panaggio left to become a HEAD COACH in the NBA Developmental League here in Los Angeles
Jean Priloeau left to move up one spot as an Assistant at Iowa State
Brian Wardle left to BECOME an assistant at UWGB
Todd Townsend left to BECOME an assistant at Northeastern

With the exception of Strohm, please show me the many or "number" that left for lateral jobs as I've just clearly shown that is not the case.


Now, are there guys that were rubbed the wrong way or didn't share the same passion, work ethic, etc...yup.  That will always be the case.  You will see guys that left every program in the country for one reason or another.


"When I was formulating a group of coaches to hire at Iowa State, Jean was one of the first names I had in mind," McDermott said. "I have a lot of respect for the two coaches he assisted under last (Mark Turgeon, Wichita State, Tom Crean, Marquette) and they had nothing but praise for Jean. We are elated to have him on staff."  
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Harrison on June 08, 2007, 12:40:29 PM
I said losing 1 a year was no problem,  I then said a "number" left ...and then mentioned Strohm and pannagio...his move was lateral very best and he had said he wanted to settle while his kids finished school ...left on very bad terms.

Never said all said a "number"...

reading comprehension...not one of Chicos skills.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: The Lens on June 08, 2007, 12:45:48 PM
Hire an NBA guy, stays for a year, leaves for NBA
Hire an NBA guy, stays for a year, leaves for NBA

I would assume Crean had to know with DP & JS that they weren't long term solutions.  I think he likes having different guys touch the program.

As for the others, some of those moves can be called upward moves but is an AC job at Northeastern really better than Dir of Ops at a Big East school?  And Kyle Green left Lewis to be an AC at Northern Iowa.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 08, 2007, 12:53:09 PM
When it comes to transfers, there are a few posters here who love to throw out lists of schools with similar transfer rates.

I'd like to see a single program in all of NCCA Division 1 with assistant coaching turnover rates as high as ours. Just one.

This is a lot more to it than not "sharing the same passion" or "work ethic." Did that get spit out of the MU PR machine?

I wish I still had MU88's eyewitness account of Crean's treatment of assistants during the fanny-whipping we took vs. MSU. I believe he even used the term "shameful." There is heat of the battle stuff and there is being a horse's ass. The rate at which our assistants leave have me firmly in the corner of the latter.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Harrison on June 08, 2007, 01:08:19 PM
Agreed about the MSU debacle...but then chicos will simply say Todd Townsend left for a step up position!  Is a asst job or a head job at a low major or NAIA school really a move up? or simply spin?
And quite honestly i would not have a problem with it if our team did not look so poorly coached so often, if we went to the NCAA's more than .500 of the time, if we were not 1-3 in first round games, if we were not signing the 10th ranked recruiting classes in the conference, if we did not sign so many recruits that were clear misses, etc. It has clearly had an effect.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: NYWarrior on June 08, 2007, 01:10:10 PM
As for the others, some of those moves can be called upward moves but is an AC job at Northeastern really better than Dir of Ops at a Big East school?  And Kyle Green left Lewis to be an AC at Northern Iowa.

Yes, both were moves up -- particularly Todd's.  In Townsend's case, he has not yet proven he can recruit......folks in that director of ops role can't recruit off-campus, a huge gap in any coach's skill base until proven.  Townsend needed to get into a job that'd let him recruit aggressively, master the in-home visit, and make the proper talent evaluations in the field.

Green to Lewis.  Up to that point he had not been a head coach at any level - - so he got that notch at Lewis which should help him down the line. Guys like Crean (never a head coach before MU) are the exception - - so Green's move was understandable.  Sure, he coulda stayed and landed a better AC job, but took a calculated risk to prove he could run a program, however small, and returned to a good mid-major.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 08, 2007, 01:24:05 PM
Agreed about the MSU debacle...but then chicos will simply say Todd Townsend left for a step up position!  Is a asst job or a head job at a low major or NAIA school really a move up? or simply spin?
And quite honestly i would not have a problem with it if our team did not look so poorly coached so often, if we went to the NCAA's more than .500 of the time, if we were not 1-3 in first round games, if we were not signing the 10th ranked recruiting classes in the conference, if we did not sign so many recruits that were clear misses, etc. It has clearly had an effect.

I have heard the rumors about the Crean/Townsend dustup before the game, but this post described abhorrent behavior by Crean during the game -- much of it directed at Seltzer, if memory serves.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 08, 2007, 01:44:46 PM
Nightmare-----Jordan leanred to shoot from none other than John Paxson who took him aside and tweaked his technique.

Now I'm not saying that DJ can be converted to a SN, but I do think with a couple of adjustments he could be at least an average perimeter shooter (35-36%)----essentially he does three things incorrectly-----bad habits----and those bad habits can be corrected just like bad habits in a golf swing can be corrected.

If i coached Shaq----I'd have him either shoot FTs underhand----or barring that
hold the ball right over the tip of his head (about 1 1/2 feet over) and rely almost solely on wrist & finger  snap----IMO he gets too much of his "sledge hammer" arms involved in the FT motion!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on June 08, 2007, 01:57:42 PM
Agreed about the MSU debacle...but then chicos will simply say Todd Townsend left for a step up position!  Is a asst job or a head job at a low major or NAIA school really a move up? or simply spin?
And quite honestly i would not have a problem with it if our team did not look so poorly coached so often, if we went to the NCAA's more than .500 of the time, if we were not 1-3 in first round games, if we were not signing the 10th ranked recruiting classes in the conference, if we did not sign so many recruits that were clear misses, etc. It has clearly had an effect.

Yes, it's a big difference.  In order to advance to be a head coach some day, you need to prove you can recruit.  A director of basketball operations cannot recruit, it is against NCAA rules.  So yes, it's a HUGE STEP up.  No other way you can cut it.  Better title, likely better money, way more responsibility.  That is a step up.

If anyone is spinning, its you guys that don't realize a promotion and the process it takes to get to their final destination...which is a head coaching position.  Steps are required, and they are taking those steps.

Finally, do you know about the Lewis situation and why he went there....I didn't think so and it shows.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 09, 2007, 08:17:54 AM
Murff, I would love to be there the day you tell Shaq he has to shoot free throws underhand. That would be some conversation. Wilt used to shoot FTs that way, and wasn't terrible at it. Then he thought it was too unmanly and went to the fire-the-ball-overhand style, and it was a disaster (much like Shaq). The point I was making earlier is that you make it sound so easy to say, "Try it this way." Maybe MU did that with DJ and he said, "I've been doing it this way all my life and I'm not going to change now." DJ hit all those shots against Valpo; was that because this form was better? Nope. He just had a hot streak. Sadly, after that game he thought he could do that at will, and we saw how his game hit a speed bump. I'm sure you were a very good high school coach. You should know that some players will accept coaching, some won't, and some will but for one reason or another will never improve. I don't know which category DJ fits in, but implying that MU never worked with him on his form is probably misguided. 
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 09, 2007, 11:34:59 AM
ecompt----if a player ever told me that he isn't going change (as you suggest DJ may have told Crean) for whatever reason -----I'd suspend him on the spot----that's insubordination-----no coach should put up with that-----if he does his effectiveness as a coach will be diluted!

As far as Shaq is concerned, I've watch him very closely on FTs-----sometimes he runs a streak when he'll make 8 out of 10 or so-----during these positive streaks he gets a lot less arm motion into his FT and more wrist and finger snap------when he's missing it's more arm and less of the wrist & fingers. He's just so muscular that he just doesn't have the finesse with those "sledgehammer" arms needed to shoot FTs conventionally!.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 09, 2007, 02:23:17 PM
Murff, what I'm saying is that telling guys to change their form doesn't always translate to success. I guarantee you could spend the next three months (24-7) working with Shaq on his free throws and he's still going to hit 50 percent, and maybe 30 percent when the game's on the line. And I should have said that DJ would have said to himself "I'm not going to change." I didn't mean to imply that DJ (or another player) would say that outright to a coach.
Title: Jerry Sichting officially to Minnesota T-Wolves
Post by: MUBasketball on June 09, 2007, 03:03:50 PM
Sorry if already posted. Welcome aboard, Tim Buckley!

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/wolves_hire_jerry_sichting_as_assistant_070608.html
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: bma725 on June 09, 2007, 03:44:49 PM
As far as Shaq is concerned, I've watch him very closely on FTs-----sometimes he runs a streak when he'll make 8 out of 10 or so-----during these positive streaks he gets a lot less arm motion into his FT and more wrist and finger snap------when he's missing it's more arm and less of the wrist & fingers. He's just so muscular that he just doesn't have the finesse with those "sledgehammer" arms needed to shoot FTs conventionally!.

It's not just the muscles that are the problem Murff, it's the wrist.  Shaq his wrist as a kid and it didn't heal correctly.  Consequently he flexibility that a normal person does.  He can't bend the wrist back as far as a normal person so he can't achieve a normal shooting motion.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 09, 2007, 04:46:52 PM
He doesn't have any problem finishing with his right handed jump hook, which is almost all wrist and finger snap!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 09, 2007, 04:51:16 PM
Ecompt----DJ wants to improve his game so that it enables the NBA so badly----that he will listen to credible advice from his coach that is meant to improve that part of his game which is preventing that.

A guy that won't listen eventhough he knows he needs to improve in a specific area is a guy who doesn't give a damn----that hardly fits DJ!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: HarryBalczak on June 09, 2007, 08:14:32 PM
Murff continues his unrelenting coaching critiques and does this despite never being at a MU practice session.  It's amazing to me that he can tell what is and what isn't being taught players in practice from his home in Cedarburg.  Has he ever offered to lend his time to Crean or has he called or emailed Tom on his coaching advice.  He doesn't have a problem giving us his opinion here, so why hesitate calling the coaching staff when he's a former player and a former successful high school coach.  Crean seems to want to pick the brains of many coaches from different levels.

There are tons of coaching tapes out there and I'll make the assumption that the MU coaches have either purchased or have produced their own tapes about different aspects of basketball and shooting is something that is probably included in the tape/CD library somewhere.  The players have unlimited access to these in the video room and I believe they also have access to the practice tapes and are able to assess what they are being taught. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Like other sports, it's often up to the individual to put in his own time in unsupervised settings to get better as there are restrictions on when and how many hours the staff can work with the players.  The players are on their own from mid May through early September, so that's roughly a third of the year where the players have to be disciplined and work on the weaknesses on their own and with teammates.  Crean would be stupid to not give some guidance to Dominic on his shooting and it would be stupid if Dominic didn't take the time to work on his shooting outside of practice.  I don't think either Dominic or Crean are that stupid, so the next time you throw an accusation around about the coaches, pick up the phone or send an email to find out the truth.  It's easy as you can send it to a coach at firstname.lastname[at]marquette.edu.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: bma725 on June 09, 2007, 10:29:01 PM
He doesn't have any problem finishing with his right handed jump hook, which is almost all wrist and finger snap!

The motion for his jump hook and a normal shot are not the same.  In a standard shot, your wrist goes back beyond a vertical position and then comes forward.  In the jump hook, his hand really only goes to a vertical position and then snaps forward.  He can do part of the standard shooting motion but not all of it.  When he tries to shoot free throws just doing that, he often doesn't have enough power to get the ball to rim, so he ends up adding in excessive arm motion to balance it out. 

He's gotten coaching from a guy named Ed Palubinskas, a world champion free throw shooter and two time basketball Olympian, and even he said that Shaq's bad wrist was the main reason Shaq can't shoot free throws well.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 10, 2007, 08:41:03 AM
Harry Balczak----first of all i don't live in Cedarburg. Secondly if the coaching staff has worked with DJ on his shot where is the improvement?----seems to me his jump shot has gotten worse not better. If DJ works on his shot, but keeps the same flawed form-----he can shoot from now until the cows come home and that shot won't get any better.----are you suggesting that DJ doesn't listen to the coaches?

bma------you are correct in the way you describe the position of the wrist on a standard shot as opposed to a jump hook (but the closer one is to the hoop on that "standard" shot the less wrist action one needs)----- at my tender age I can still shoot FTs with  NO wrist action at all----just finger snap accompanied by just a small jerk forward of my arm----this creates a rapid back spin which lowers the margin for error------but again I don't see Shaq's having any problem whatsoever off the jump hook and therefore would have to conclude that his wrist problem isn't what it's cracked up to be----more of an excuse not a reason.

Let's say that Shaq's problem is his wrist as you say----why wouldn't Palubinskas teach him the underhand FT as this would require minimal wrist and finger snap?
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: augoman on June 10, 2007, 01:07:54 PM
I seem to remember that Shaq had a terrific FT percentage at LSU..., can anyone verify?  ..., and if so, what happened?
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 10, 2007, 01:43:19 PM
Murff: No NBA player is going to shoot free throws underhand. It's not considered manly. Shaq would laugh in a coach's face if he suggested it. And, again, were you criticizing the coaching staff when DJ was shooting well his freshman year? Why is it the coaches' fault? TC seemed to do OK with Novak's shooting. And Travis. Oh, I forgot, it was your criticism that drove Travis to be one of the best all-around guards in MU history. Never mind.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: bma725 on June 10, 2007, 01:48:49 PM
I seem to remember that Shaq had a terrific FT percentage at LSU..., can anyone verify?  ..., and if so, what happened?

Nope.  He went 56%, 64%, 53%.  Better, but still not good.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 10, 2007, 01:55:10 PM
ecompt----seems to be if the coaches presented it to Shaq that underhanded was "unique" and that it would help his production and therfore his team's production he would do it-----I would-----you would----just about anyone would.

The way it is now he gets hacked underneath because the D is playing the percentages (missed FT vs almost a sure 2 points)----if he could shoot FTs he wouldn't have to put up with that crap!

DJ didn't shoot much better from away from the hoop his frosh year either----I mentioned the flaws in his from then too. SN's form always was picture perfect----even in HS he had a sweet looking stroke----not much a coach can do to improve that.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 10, 2007, 01:58:27 PM
bma-----Shaq's 64% at LSU was a lot better than his 52% in the NBA-----proves that a childhood "wrist" injury isn't the problem as he's regressed in FT shooting. Reason he regressed is that he developed "sledgehammer" arms and lost his agility in those arms-----needs more fingersnap with just a slight aid of his wrist and/or arm!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: bma725 on June 10, 2007, 04:59:28 PM
bma-----Shaq's 64% at LSU was a lot better than his 52% in the NBA-----proves that a childhood "wrist" injury isn't the problem as he's regressed in FT shooting. Reason he regressed is that he developed "sledgehammer" arms and lost his agility in those arms-----needs more fingersnap with just a slight aid of his wrist and/or arm!

Not true.  Shaq didn't bulk up until much later, well after he left Orlando, and into his years with LA.  With Orlando, he averaged 53% in his 4 years there.  He didn't bulk up until Phil Jackson told him he needed to be stronger in 2000....and guess what his free throw percentage actually improved and he posted his career high after that.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 10, 2007, 07:03:34 PM
I saw Shaq on a 2001 playoff game on ESPN Classic today. When he shoots FTs he balances the ball on his 5 finger tips and shot puts the ball up ythere----no finger snap whatsoever----and you say he had some expert show him that form-----the guy was overpaid as that delivery is so onorthodox I've never seen it before----also it's illfated as the sensitivity on a FT (or perimeter shot) comes off the finger tip snap which creates rapid backspin.

When Shaq shot 64% at LSU (junior year)----that was something to build on----he just never got the proper advice on how to deliver the ball from the line.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: bma725 on June 10, 2007, 08:45:35 PM
I saw Shaq on a 2001 playoff game on ESPN Classic today. When he shoots FTs he balances the ball on his 5 finger tips and shot puts the ball up ythere----no finger snap whatsoever----and you say he had some expert show him that form-----the guy was overpaid as that delivery is so onorthodox I've never seen it before----also it's illfated as the sensitivity on a FT (or perimeter shot) comes off the finger tip snap which creates rapid backspin.

When Shaq shot 64% at LSU (junior year)----that was something to build on----he just never got the proper advice on how to deliver the ball from the line.

The 64% came in his sophomore year, not junior year.  He followed it up his junior year with his worst year in college of 53%.

The coach tried to get Shaq to do multiple techniques, and the claim from the guy was that in practice he could get Shaq to consistently shoot in the high 70s, but when Shaq got into the game his form would change.  He was never able to bring what he was doing in practice into the games.

BTW, Ed Palubinskas worked with Shaq in college.  But there relationship never lasted long.  He worked with him his sophomore year, decided it was fixed then stopped.  Got worried about it before becoming a pro and worked with him his rookie year, then stopped.  Worked with him in 02-03 then stopped.  Everytime  Shaq would improve, think everything was fixed and stop seeing him. 

He also screwed himself up by going to Tom Penders, the coach at Houston and formerly coach at George Washington, Rhode Island and Texas.  He and Shaq have known each other since his high school days and are fairly close.  So Palubinskas would teach him something and eventually he'd show it to Penders and Penders wouldn't like it so he'd work on changing it.  His worst free throw shooting has always come during the periods when he wasn't working with Palubinskas.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 11, 2007, 07:36:38 AM
Which is my point----and that is form/style are very important in shooting and FT shooting-----balancing the ball on the tips of 5 fingers and "shot putting" the ball up is lousy form.

What Shaq needed was a daily regimine of reps incorporating the proper form-----one can teach a dog to do tricks----Shaq should be a lot easier to teach----just needs as many daily reps as it takes to make his FT shooting form "2nd nature"-----his FTs are very important!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 11, 2007, 10:05:06 AM
Totally agree with you, Murff. The problem is that either:
1. Shaq won't listen
2. Shaq listens, tries it in practice, then forgets about it in the game
3. It doesn't matter; Shaq is a lousy free-throw shooter.
I went to school with Majerus and he had perfect free-throw form and could show you the right technique. I'm sure Shaq has had coaches who have worked with him; it just hasn't sunk in.   
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on June 11, 2007, 06:47:01 PM
bma-----Shaq's 64% at LSU was a lot better than his 52% in the NBA-----proves that a childhood "wrist" injury isn't the problem as he's regressed in FT shooting. Reason he regressed is that he developed "sledgehammer" arms and lost his agility in those arms-----needs more fingersnap with just a slight aid of his wrist and/or arm!

But doesn't this serve the point everyone else is making about coaching?  Shaq's FT's have gotten WORSE since college despite at LEAST 4 personal foul shooting coaches as well as playing for Jackson, Riley, etc (and working with Jerry West) yet despite all this...his foul shooting got worse.

Are you to suggest that all of those pro coaches, personal ft coaches, etc were poor teachers, coaches?  Or sometimes is it just the player?   Seems to me with all of those coaches taking a crack at him it's probably the player.  I'd say the same thing as it relates to DJ.  It makes no sense to me that a coach(es) would be so proficient with Novak, Diener, Wardle, Fitzgerald, etc but just dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to coaching DJ.  Makes no common sense at all.

Sometimes players just don't want to listen or don't feel comfortable shooting the "proper way".   James Wilkes (now known as Jamal Wilkes) at UCLA was one of those guys.  Wooden said they tried to correct his shooting his freshman year but it made it worse so they let him go back to the way he always shot it.  Ugly as anything, but effective.  Adrian Dantley another guy like that.

Look at the PGA every week, there are a lot of guys out there that make PGA teaching pros cringe, but it works for them.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 11, 2007, 07:03:08 PM
Chicos----anyone who taught Shaq to balance the ball on the tip of his fingers and push in "shot put" form the ball up to the hoop  without backspin has absolutely done Shaq a disservice. Should be utilizing maximum finger snap leverage either with his wrist or by a short thrust forward with his forearm. He does neither!

Also TC didn't have to help SN, TD, Wardle, & Fitz with his shot----they all came to him as proficient shooters!

Some guys can connect with unconventional form (Wilkes?)----in that case you let them alone----but if they can't connect----their form needs to be overhauled!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: 79Warrior on June 11, 2007, 07:43:23 PM
If Sichting was on my staff to work on developing people and couldn't correct DJ's shooting form one iota to make him at least an average shooter----I'd have run him off too!

What good wwas he?


Another insightful comment.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 11, 2007, 08:10:38 PM
Well Warrior, you tell me! My understanding is that Sichting was in charge of individual player development----if so, and my star guard's shooting regresses under his watch-----I'd can him, as he clearly didn't do the job!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Nukem2 on June 11, 2007, 09:08:18 PM
Yawn....!!!! 44 posts and counting.  Wow.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on June 12, 2007, 01:06:01 AM
Chicos----anyone who taught Shaq to balance the ball on the tip of his fingers and push in "shot put" form the ball up to the hoop  without backspin has absolutely done Shaq a disservice. Should be utilizing maximum finger snap leverage either with his wrist or by a short thrust forward with his forearm. He does neither!

Also TC didn't have to help SN, TD, Wardle, & Fitz with his shot----they all came to him as proficient shooters!

Some guys can connect with unconventional form (Wilkes?)----in that case you let them alone----but if they can't connect----their form needs to be overhauled!


Murff...4 personal coaches, plus Jackson, plus Riley, plus Jerry West....he got worst shooting free throws.

Is it possible that some players can't be coached?


Now, as good a shooter as Novak and others were, they didn't want to shoot when they first started.  They clearly got better by the ends of their careers (not everyone does...i.e. Dameon Mason).  I give the coaches at least 1% (probably more like 50%) of the reason they do.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 12, 2007, 07:25:24 AM
Shaq is NOT an uncoachable player----he made light years development since LSU-----he has developed some of the best postup moves one will ever see-----these were taught to him not naturally acquired.

Now if he's willing to learn postup moves and practice and develop them and all that goes into that----he'll do the same for FTs, which takes a lot less effort.

Bottomline: Shaq had better postup coaching than FT shooting----his FT coach may be good, but in Shaq's case he completely misdiagnosed the problem and how to rectify it!
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: ecompt on June 12, 2007, 10:17:38 AM
Come on, Murff, we all know Shaq's main post-up move is shoving his butt into defenders until he's six inches from the basket, then slamming it home. It doesn't take a genius coach to tell a 7-2, 360-pound guy that all he has to do is knock people down. Shaq could get away with it in a league that has 30 teams but only seven of eight decent centers. That's like putting you in your prime against a 5-8 kid. You would have eaten him alive, with or without a postup coach.
Title: Re: Sichting leaving for MN, as per Star Tribune
Post by: Murffieus on June 12, 2007, 11:23:06 AM
ecompt----Shaq does that too (push his weight around)----but take a look at his footwork, body feints, and quickness off those moves----best I've ever seen. That was taught and learned!

Also his agility for a guy his size is outstanding!