MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: wyzgy on March 28, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
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the alleged assault allegedly occurred on october 30, 2011 at an alleged party at an alleged location by 4 alledged marquette males on an alleged marquette female.
what purpose is this "news" article fullfilling?? it says allegedly, essentially nothing. until any information can be told, this should not have been printed, yet. no is in danger-allegedly and this doesn't appear to be a pattern, i don't think. umm, october 30th?? let's see, did basketball even start yet? was there snow yet? wtf... so other than to try to damage MU's from a public relations point of view-there is nothing here. from a personal point of view, i hope this alleged assault did not happen however, let's get the real news out(if there is any) before these people start collecting their pensions
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/118783474.html
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the alleged assault allegedly occurred on october 30, 2011 at an alleged party at an alleged location by 4 alledged marquette males on an alleged marquette female.
what purpose is this "news" article fullfilling?? it says allegedly, essentially nothing. until any information can be told, this should not have been printed, yet. no is in danger-allegedly and this doesn't appear to be a pattern, i don't think. umm, october 30th?? let's see, did basketball even start yet? was there snow yet? wtf... so other than to try to damage MU's from a public relations point of view-there is nothing here. from a personal point of view, i hope this alleged assault did not happen however, let's get the real news out(if there is any) before these people start collecting their pensions
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/118783474.html
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
ummmm...proofread?
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At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
mmmm...proofread?
that was very insightful. thanks for the mercy part :-* maybe thru your dyslexia, you could see the many very subtle points i was making, but then again, i don't ask your approval or grade shall we say-warrior
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My understanding is the reason it was not brought to the public's attention sooner was due to it involving MU basketball players. The internal investigation was made by Marquette employees and seems to have been kept under wraps, but now the MPD has gotten involved.
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My understanding is the reason it was not brought to the public's attention sooner was due to it involving MU basketball players. The internal investigation was made by Marquette employees and seems to have been kept under wraps, but now the MPD has gotten involved.
thanks mudayz, now that was the type of response i guess i would've expected, rather than one posted earlier by a guy with a non-original screen name who can't decipher :o may God have mercy on the people involved here-i hope nothing bad happened to the victim and it was all a misunderstanding. no one likes to hear of this violent act happenning anywhere, especially this close to home-allegedly
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My understanding is the reason it was not brought to the public's attention sooner was due to it involving MU basketball players. The internal investigation was made by Marquette employees and seems to have been kept under wraps, but now the MPD has gotten involved.
For a first ever post, that's a doozy.
I've heard mutterings about player involvement, but suggesting report of a bona fide assault would/could be kept from the authorities for 5 months without the alleged victim's consent seems far fetched. While I hope not, I think we are all about to learn more about this than any of us would prefer.
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If they tried going Notre Dame style and covered this up, that is completely unacceptable.
I don't understand how this could go 5 months without being reported to the police by the victim at the least?
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If they tried going Notre Dame style and covered this up, that is completely unacceptable.
I don't understand how this could go 5 months without being reported to the police by the victim at the least?
+1
If this is more than "alleged," why does it come out at the end of March when it happened in October?
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http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
bad news for the school.
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There is a thread in the Superbar about this.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=26559.msg297179;topicseen#new (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=26559.msg297179;topicseen#new)
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which is where this one should be moved....
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Cat is out of the bag now.
This thing could really blow up in MU's face if there's something to these allegations.
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Sorry... I figured since the allegations are against 4 athletes it belonged in the section pertaining to marquette athletics.
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According to the Journal Sentnal article, there was a disciplinary hearing held by the Division of Student Affairs. I really hope that if something legit had been uncovered, they would have contacted MPD sooner than five months later.
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If they tried going Notre Dame style and covered this up, that is completely unacceptable.
I don't understand how this could go 5 months without being reported to the police by the victim at the least?
If it's up to the victim to decide to go to MPD with it, then it's up to the victim to decide when they want to go forward with everything that is involved in a police investigation/trial.
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The timing of this coming out just after the season ends isn't going to look good IF basketball players are involved.
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From other thread article, sounds like:
1) Possible assault by MU student athletes at a party and victim made complaint to MU police.
2) MU Police review the facts of the case and determine no further action deemed appropriate. Reasons unknown, probably due to lack of credible evidence/statements, but decline to refer the case to Milwaukee Police Department.
3) Case is referred to MU Committee for student violations action
4) Victim doesn't like that referral and contacts Milwaukee Police.
For referral actions that appears to be a lengthy timeframe and the October to March could be just coincidental. No mention about the student athletes being basketball players, but the odds are high.
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For referral actions that appears to be a lengthy timeframe and the October to March could be just coincidental. No mention about the student athletes being basketball players, but the odds are high.
Why do you say odds are high?
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I've heard mutterings about player involvement, but suggesting report of a bona fide assault would/could be kept from the authorities for 5 months without the alleged victim's consent seems far fetched. While I hope not, I think we are all about to learn more about this than any of us would prefer.
The victim was apparently counseled repeatedly that she could go to the Police, but declined and let Public Safety do the investigation. MU does not turn such investigations over to Police on their own. Now, the debate is going to be is what does "counseled" mean.
And yes, basketball players were involved.
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The victim was apparently counseled repeatedly that she could go to the Police, but declined and let Public Safety do the investigation. MU does not turn such investigations over to Police on their own. Now, the debate is going to be is what does "counseled" mean.
And yes, basketball players were involved.
Outstanding :(
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Why do you say odds are high?
It could be members of the soccer team, so the odds are high for them also. Or it could be two members of the B-ball and two from track. But in a scenario, the teams hang out with each other. Just going with the dates.
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The scout board also says that the television report stated that the victim was told throughout that she could contact the police at an time.
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It could be members of the soccer team, so the odds are high for them also. Or it could be two members of the B-ball and two from track. But in a scenario, the teams hang out with each other. Just going with the dates.
I thought you were going to say because of the JUCO influence.
Sounds like from Sultan it was a member(s) of the hoops team and not sure if other sports involved. Unfortunate. Hope it's a he said \ she said trist gone bad and nothing more. Keeping MU off the print pages and police blotters is a big deal for me. If they do end up there, it is obviously my hope that they are exonerated fully. Most importantly, that justice is served.
Bummer...hope this is nothing.
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Be careful here. The timing/nature of the story, etc., raise concerns that the young lady has an attorney leveraging this into a suit against the school...when her claim itself (assault) shoots higher than the facts supporting(finding was for sexual harrassment), the fallback is for her atty, through PR/plant story, to very publicly attack the investigation, or the institution, especially if you can damage one of its crown jewels.
MU, Get sworn statements quickly, photos, witnesses, and get out in front of this, before leverage/greed and watergate instincts bogs it down, amplifies its consequences, and damages some lives, further.
To the attorney, get out of the press, and get down to the courthouse if you have a claim worthy of suit.
BTW...when did Halloween become the annual ladies in sexy dress night?
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ok, no sexual assault. but sexual harrassment. can anyone help me out with that one? that is really a broad(no pun) topic. anything from a "dirty joke" to saying things to her that made her feel uncomfortable, right? but no touching, right? i'm really not being a smart ass about this, but what could merit an athletes code thing, because unless more peple came forward to corroborate, it becomes a he said-she said and what constitutes offense
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According to the other board:
It was reported on Channel 4 Jerry Boyle is representing the student Aathletes.
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I thought you were going to say because of the JUCO influence.
Sounds like from Sultan it was a member(s) of the hoops team and not sure if other sports involved.
At least two are basketball players. I do not know who the other two are.
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The victim was apparently counseled repeatedly that she could go to the Police, but declined and let Public Safety do the investigation. MU does not turn such investigations over to Police on their own. Now, the debate is going to be is what does "counseled" mean.
And yes, basketball players were involved.
Do you know which players as in getting the information back door? Or did you read somewhere that it was four basketball players?
My only thought is that to have Boyle representing college kids at an internal disciplinary hearing explains all I need to know.
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nm
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What I'm hearing....All four are basketball players...three are high profile.
Sigh.
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According to the other board:
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ok, no sexual assault. but sexual harrassment. can anyone help me out with that one? that is really a broad(no pun) topic. anything from a "dirty joke" to saying things to her that made her feel uncomfortable, right? but no touching, right? i'm really not being a smart ass about this, but what could merit an athletes code thing, because unless more peple came forward to corroborate, it becomes a he said-she said and what constitutes offense
In the majority of cases, sexual assault involves "the touching" aspect. Examples would be grabbing a woman's breast area, rear, etc. It could also involve hugging, grinding without the victim's consent. You get the point. In sexual assault cases there is no penetration involved. If so, then the case gets upgraded to a rape charge, in which the MU Public Safety Office would be required to contact Milwaukee Police. Sexual Harrassment is exactly what you explained and is a civil matter with no law enforcement necessary.
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Whatever. Sexual harrassment among college kids? Are you kidding me? If you're not sexually harrassing somebody in college you're not trying hard enough.
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Whatever. Sexual harrassment among college kids? Are you kidding me? If you're not sexually harrassing somebody in college you're not trying hard enough.
Terribly inappropriate. Please delete.
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Wisn article says the UNIVERSITY found them guilty of harassment. assault I'm sure is what is on the table with the police right now.
$hit is going to blow up and anyone that was involved in possibly hiding it for this long needs to be gone
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What I'm hearing....All four are basketball players...three are high profile.
Sigh.
According to whom?
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In the majority of cases, sexual assault involves "the touching" aspect. Examples would be grabbing a woman's breast area, rear, etc. It could also involve hugging, grinding without the victim's consent. You get the point. In sexual assault cases there is no penetration involved. If so, then the case gets upgraded to a rape charge, in which the MU Public Safety Office would be required to contact Milwaukee Police. Sexual Harrassment is exactly what you explained and is a civil matter with no law enforcement necessary.
thanks for a clarification, but according to wisn-they were cleared of sexual assault, but looking more at the sexual harrassment issue. now if any touching, squeezing,without victims consent occurred-that would be assault. so the harrassment thing is kind of squishy. if you watch a high school "dance", it looks like one big orgie with their clothes on. i mean it is one physical activity going on-like standing up lap dances. doesn't usually leave any evidence, but i'm sure anythingis possible with kids now days. so this brings me back to harassment...does the student/athletic handbook address this?
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If there was sexual assault the players need to prosecuted and anyone that covered it up this long needs to be fired, up to and including Buzz. Having said that, I find it very difficult to understand how the victim and/or university would/could keep this under wraps for 5 months??? Something doesn't seem right about this whole thing
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Whatever. Sexual harrassment among college kids? Are you kidding me? If you're not sexually harrassing somebody in college you're not trying hard enough.
As a father of a daughter....don't think this is cool at all.
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According to whom?
I slightly amended my post to say "according to what I'm hearing". I trust my source as he/she is very involved with MU...can't get much more involved. I obviously didn't state any names for a reason because the names haven't been released yet.
Always two sides to the story(if not 20 sides) so this will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Bummer that this has come up.
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What I'm hearing....All four are basketball players...three are high profile.
OK...I knew two of these.
Do you know which players as in getting the information back door? Or did you read somewhere that it was four basketball players?
I have a family member who is in a position to know this and legally share it with me. This person does not work for the athletic department nor are they connected with the athletic department in any way. I first heard about this in December and frankly forgot about it until this evening.
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I slightly amended my post to say "according to what I'm hearing". I trust my source as he/she is very involved with MU...can't get much more involved. I obviously didn't state any names for a reason because the names haven't been released yet.
Always two sides to the story(if not 20 sides) so this will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Bummer that this has come up.
I am hearing similar to Chicos, very detrimental to next year if these rumors are true.
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I heard some rumors on campus flying around about .. a few months back. However, even if the rumors are true I'm not sure what he did would be considered sexual harassment.
Disclaimer - I am not claiming to know anything about this current case... only rumors circulating campus a few months ago.
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I heard some rumors on campus flying around about ..a few months back.
Please, please, please....do not bring up individual names. It isn't really fair until they become public.
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Please, please, please....do not bring up individual names. It isn't really fair until they become public.
+1000000000000000000
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Please, please, please....do not bring up individual names. It isn't really fair until they become public.
As I said, I don't know anything about this case.
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.. is a good kid, and you see him on campus and anyone could see that. Don't say crap like that
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Right now, all I see is a bunch of people spouting off without any facts.
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I know nothing inside about this case, but I do know this...if Jerry Boyle (Jeffrey Dahmer and Mark Chumura's attorney for those of you outside of MKE) is representing you in front of the student conduct board, that is a bit concerning.
But remember, there is a difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault. Certainly there is some gray area, but one certainly does not equal the other. I could forsee a scenario here where the University found what they did as harassment, but the accuser brought forward the complaint to MPD hoping for the result that she wanted.
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thanks for a clarification, but according to wisn-they were cleared of sexual assault, but looking more at the sexual harrassment issue. now if any touching, squeezing,without victims consent occurred-that would be assault. so the harrassment thing is kind of squishy. if you watch a high school "dance", it looks like one big orgie with their clothes on. i mean it is one physical activity going on-like standing up lap dances. doesn't usually leave any evidence, but i'm sure anythingis possible with kids now days. so this brings me back to harassment...does the student/athletic handbook address this?
They were cleared of sexual assault by the MU Public Safety Office, which reviewed the case and for reasons unknown did not refer to the Milwaukee Police. MU Public Safety Office does not oversee criminal investigations. It is apparent the victim, through either an attorneys, friends, or whoever did not agree with that decision. The next step was to go to Milwaukee Police and advise them of the facts and to make a formal complaint. The Milwaukee Police will do their investigation and present their findings to City District Attorneys Office for a prosecutorial decision. This will now ensure an outside law enforcement entity will conduct the investigation. I presume that this case will receive massive media coverage and look for a quick decision, especially if Milwaukee Police has had this case for a few weeks.
Only real question is the timeframe issue. Why the wait?
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I know nothing inside about this case, but I do know this...if Jerry Boyle (Jeffrey Dahmer and Mark Chumura's attorney for those of you outside of MKE) is representing you in front of the student conduct board, that is a bit concerning.
But remember, there is a difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault. Certainly there is some gray area, but one certainly does not equal the other. I could forsee a scenario here where the University found what they did as harassment, but the accuser brought forward the complaint to MPD hoping for the result that she wanted.
Gerry is a Marquette booster. You often see him on road trips at the NCAA tournament for MU games. From what I understand, he has helped the university over the years on some legal matters. I don't know how accurate that is, but that's what I've heard.
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+1000000000000000000
Giving hints about who they are is almost as bad because it gets the rumor mill going even faster. Personally, I'd like to see you delete that post.
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If you were a girl reporting 4 players to the police and your name came out while they were on a run to the sweet 16 do u think students would be sweet to you? thats why the wait
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Giving hints about who they are is almost as bad because it gets the rumor mill going even faster. Personally, I'd like to see you delete that post.
Sorry, think I misread your post.
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Gerry is a Marquette booster. You often see him on road trips at the NCAA tournament for MU games. From what I understand, he has helped the university over the years on some legal matters. I don't know how accurate that is, but that's what I've heard.
I've met Gerry on several occasions, so I am quite aware of his connection to the university. And yes, I have heard the same as well.
Only real question is the timeframe issue. Why the wait?
Having 2 friends/contacts that have gone through the student conduct process with this type of situation (being accused of rape/sexual assault, both acquitted), this does take somewhat of a while to wind through with the university channels. Especially if this situation took place in late October/early November, this is probably not going to be dealt with in December or early January while students are taking finals/on break from campus. Now, certainly, the timing of the news coming out is quite concerning, but I don't think the timeframe of all this working itself out is that extreme.
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What does my post say that gives more "hints" than previous posts?
I was referring to Chicos' post about the players.
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I was referring to Chicos' post about the players.
Yup, sorry. Misunderstood it.
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Giving hints about who they are is almost as bad because it gets the rumor mill going even faster. Personally, I'd like to see you delete that post.
I made them sufficiently vague IMO, but as a precaution I changed it even more. The problem is that someone quoted my post so it still lives. You'll have to have him delete or modify that post.
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http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/118783474.html (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/118783474.html)
No names, no sports listed, but you wonder...
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It is unfortunate that this happened, but I am glad that somebody came forth. I have seen the basketball team have this same disregard for other women (in ways that have already been posted in these messages) and it is completely unacceptable. I just hope that Marquette had the decency to handle this correctly and there is not something that comes out later to dispute that.
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If you were a girl reporting 4 players to the police and your name came out while they were on a run to the sweet 16 do u think students would be sweet to you? thats why the wait
But what of the wait prior to the Sweet Sixteen berth?
This was an average basketball team for nearly three months. It wasn't like she would be vilified beyond belief like she was taking down a surefire #1 seed in the NCAA Tournament.
Even factoring in time to get the process rolling and University breaks, a four month interval is a pretty long amount of time.
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It is unfortunate that this happened, but I am glad that somebody came forth. I have seen the basketball team have this same disregard for other women (in ways that have already been posted in these messages) and it is completely unacceptable. I just hope that Marquette had the decency to handle this correctly and there is not something that comes out later to dispute that.
You do realize that there are plenty of other men on the Marquette campus that treat women like absolute garbage as well, right? It's a problem that's not just confined to athletes (if it's even basketball players we're talking about here), but a lot of males on any college campus.
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pretty sad that even slightly vague descriptions of who the players are... surely can place names to the accused...
let this play out.. if they are guilty, then punish them...
if they are not guilty, you have surely associated them with a negative event...
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It is unfortunate that this happened, but I am glad that somebody came forth. I have seen the basketball team have this same disregard for other women (in ways that have already been posted in these messages) and it is completely unacceptable. I just hope that Marquette had the decency to handle this correctly and there is not something that comes out later to dispute that.
You're unreal.
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You're unreal.
Maybe I said it the wrong way, but I just want to make sure Marquette isn't handling this the wrong way. I am a student and do see plenty of things and hope everything is handled appropriately. That is all.
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I rarely post on here, but I wanted to come over and say that it is imperative that we all use some common sense and discretion here. Rumors can fly, but it is irresponsible and harmful to post every little rumor you hear. Let justice run its course...
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Yeah MUDayz all of us students see the players on weekends doing whatever they do. They all travel together the only time we see them is at lunch. Get out of here unless your like best buds or live in Humphrey. Otherwise your just being the typical kid that doesn't really give a crap about MU basketball and sits in the dorm when there is a game.
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If you were a girl reporting 4 players to the police and your name came out while they were on a run to the sweet 16 do u think students would be sweet to you? thats why the wait
OK, so that takes it up to.....last week. Doesn't explain the rest of the timeframe.
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I made them sufficiently vague IMO, but as a precaution I changed it even more. The problem is that someone quoted my post so it still lives. You'll have to have him delete or modify that post.
I've fixed the quotes to represent your present post. I would also echo the sentiment that it's ok to discuss facts here, but stay out of the speculation. Let the Police, MU, and involved parties figure things out without posting rumors.
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If this is a south bend type of cover up or drawing out the process to get through the season then people will get fired including buzz. Better hold off on the extension.
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If this is a south bend type of cover up or drawing out the process to get through the season then people will get fired including buzz. Better hold off on the extension.
we got groove's angle. that's a hilarious post with rocky's warning about speculation right above......... next post down saturated with speculation.
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Yeah har har har. The whole thread is speculation. You just don't like speculation that would put buzz in bad light.
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If this is a south bend type of cover up or drawing out the process to get through the season then people will get fired including buzz. Better hold off on the extension.
We can always count on you to assume the absolute worst and almost assuredly untrue scenario. Thanks for staying consistant.
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If this is a south bend type of cover up or drawing out the process to get through the season then people will get fired including buzz. Better hold off on the extension.
This, of course, makes no sense.
The university, much less the coaching staff, doesn't control the timeline here as far as the girl reporting/not reporting to police. Unlike ND, Marquette doesn't have a certified police force. This girl could have, and perhaps should have, taken this to police from the start. The fact that she didn't at the very least raises legitimate questions about the allegations.
I understand there's no universal way for a person to deal with something like this, but if another student commits a serious act of violence against me, I'm not taking it to Public Safety and hoping they do something about it when they, in fact, have no power to do something about it. I'm calling the cops.
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Yeah har har har. The whole thread is speculation. You just don't like speculation that would put buzz in bad light.
hop out of the dumpster oscar.....thought it was funny.
I don't care if it shows bad on Buzz, I just know you've been pushing to get a new coach. Lets calm it down a notch tonight, groovester.
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Well the accusations have been made, therefore the accused must be guilty and there must've been a coverup...No investigation needed
Boy, it really seems like you are guilty until proven innocent in cases like this. But who cares if the reputations of innocent people and/or institutions get damaged, as long as it's somebody else's reputation at stake...?
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It is unfortunate that this happened, but I am glad that somebody came forth. I have seen the basketball team have this same disregard for other women (in ways that have already been posted in these messages) and it is completely unacceptable. I just hope that Marquette had the decency to handle this correctly and there is not something that comes out later to dispute that.
Hey mods, if there was ever a thread where it might be a good idea to ban nameless, faceless trolls with unsubstantiated claims, do you think this might be it?
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May justice be done.
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Boy, it really seems like you are guilty until proven innocent in cases like this. But who cares if the reputations of innocent people and/or institutions get damaged, as long as it's somebody else's reputation at stake...?
I don't know if that's really what's been communicated in this thread... But we've all seen situations like this play out at other universities, and I think most people are justified in preparing themselves for the worst. At least for myself, I'm hoping for the best (all the individuals involved are innocent), and bracing for a disaster (they are guilty, and deservedly are punished, resulting in a huge PR mess for MU and devastating ramifications for the short term future of our program).
Either way, I hope justice is done. If they are innocent, then I hope they are fully exonerated. If not... they deserve what they get. Would sure be a shame to see the university smeared publicly because of some stupid decisions on the part of whoever these 4 dudes are.
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By the way, I don't think this is a superbar topic. It is directly related to the men's bball program.
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I don't know if that's really what's been communicated in this thread... But we've all seen situations like this play out at other universities, and I think most people are justified in preparing themselves for the worst. At least for myself, I'm hoping for the best (all the individuals involved are innocent), and bracing for a disaster (they are guilty, and deservedly are punished, resulting in a huge PR mess for MU and devastating ramifications for the short term future of our program).
Either way, I hope justice is done. If they are innocent, then I hope they are fully exonerated. If not... they deserve what they get. Would sure be a shame to see the university smeared publicly because of some stupid decisions on the part of whoever these 4 dudes are.
Or you have situations like Duke Lax. I'll wait until the findings are released. If it was anything more than the grey area between harassment and assault, this would have been released to MPD for criminal prosecution. I don't think Marquette believes a basketball team (especially this basketball team [meaning only that we don't have oodles of NBA-quality talent]) is above Marquette's good name. I have faith in the system here.
Either way, I'm sure we'll find that her outfit was "hankering for a (tails off)..."
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Or you have situations like Duke Lax. I'll wait until the findings are released. If it was anything more than the grey area between harassment and assault, this would have been released to MPD for criminal prosecution. I don't think Marquette believes a basketball team (especially this basketball team [meaning only that we don't have oodles of NBA-quality talent]) is above Marquette's good name. I have faith in the system here.
I am prone to agree with all of that reasoning. I hope very strongly that you are absolutely spot on. My tendency is to believe that my alma mater, as an institution, maintains a high enough level of integrity to handle stuff like this the right way even where other institutions might not. I am a realist, however, and know that naivety can get you burned sometimes. Hopefully our faith in MU is well placed.
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As a father of a daughter....don't think this is cool at all.
Get over yourself. You're not the only person with a daughter. You people are all jumping to huge conclusions. Sounds to me like NOTHING HAPPENED! Please define "sexual harrassment" to me, particularly as it pertains to college relationships. It's complete nonsense and it appears that the powers that be agree with me.
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Or you have situations like Duke Lax. I'll wait until the findings are released. If it was anything more than the grey area between harassment and assault, this would have been released to MPD for criminal prosecution. I don't think Marquette believes a basketball team (especially this basketball team [meaning only that we don't have oodles of NBA-quality talent]) is above Marquette's good name. I have faith in the system here.
Either way, I'm sure we'll find that her outfit was "hankering for a (tails off)..."
That's what I'm talking about. I also have faith in the system; it just seems to me that when people start talking coverup and who should or shouldn't be fired, there is guilt being unfairly assumed that can lead to reputations being unjustifiably tarnished.
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Get over yourself. You're not the only person with a daughter. You people are all jumping to huge conclusions. Sounds to me like NOTHING HAPPENED! Please define "sexual harrassment" to me, particularly as it pertains to college relationships. It's complete nonsense and it appears that the powers that be agree with me.
All I know is that, as a father, if any loser college kid did anything constituting sexual harassment toward my daughter, he better hope I don't find him. That stuff isn't just a joke that we can all laugh about. It's serious stuff. Maybe you disagree, but I think that says more about you than it does about this particular situation.
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I am prone to agree with all of that reasoning. I hope very strongly that you are absolutely spot on. My tendency is to believe that my alma mater, as an institution, maintains a high enough level of integrity to handle stuff like this the right way even where other institutions might not. I am a realist, however, and know that naivety can get you burned sometimes. Hopefully our faith in MU is well placed.
It's times like this that I really hope we're sticking to the Cura Personalis motto. I'm like you in that I like to hope I can place more faith in my alma mater than simply as a school hungry for revenues, donations, and tuition money. I've always been proud to say that I went to Marquette, and I've always believed that it means more than just the piece of paper they handed me when I left.
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One person's sexual harassment is another person's conquest and high five affair. Sorry PRN, I and others thought your comments on this were way to cavalier. You sounded like Bobby Knight when he said if being raped, just sit back and enjoy it.
No way am I saying these guys did anything wrong. We don't know the details and they are all owed a presumption of innocence. This could be a lot of nothing and probably is.
Unfortunately there are MU athletes on the incident report and that is never a good thing to see.
I guess Dodds or someone on hisboard is worried that it is a MU athletics administrator that I spoke to...let me be clear...It Was NOT. End of story on that speculation.
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It's times like this that I really hope we're sticking to the Cura Personalis motto. I'm like you in that I like to hope I can place more faith in my alma mater than simply as a school hungry for revenues, donations, and tuition money. I've always been proud to say that I went to Marquette, and I've always believed that it means more than just the piece of paper they handed me when I left.
+1
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Mods, maybe we lock these down until we know more (that is, something is actually announced and facts are ascertained)?
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One person's sexual harassment is another person's conquest and high five affair. Sorry PRN, I and others thought your comments on this were way to cavalier. You sounded like Bobby Knight when he said if being raped, just sit back and enjoy it.
Why are you inserting "rape" into a conversation about "sexual harrassment?" Take a deep breath!!
You guys are way out over your skiis on this story.
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http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
"That just goes to show that there's a double standard being held," sophomore Derrick Wendler said.
Wendler said the police investigation has been the talk on campus over the past week.
"If I did something like that, I would expect to be punished for it, just like they should be punished for it," Wendler said.
Did they really just randomly ask a student about rumors on campus, and then put his quotes in the story?
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Just to be clear on this, I can say with 100% confidence that F*ckin' was not in Humphey on the day of the alleged incident.
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Why are you inserting "rape" into a conversation about "sexual harrassment?" Take a deep breath!!
You guys are way out over your skiis on this story.
Whoa whoa there. In no way am I suggesting rape. I actually agree with you that usually these incidents are just a bunch of young guys and gals that typically have z bit too much, hormones get cranked up and they hook up. Stuff happens every night in college and certainly athletes are doing better than the future psychologist options trader.
My Bobby Knight comment has to do with how cavalier your statements were...just as his were on an important topic. This can be serious stuff and shouldn't be made fun of or made out like it's no big deal. It might, in fact, be no big deal. In fact, it would not surprise me one bit if it's nothing. That doesn't mean we should dismiss it as if it's a joke
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It's times like this that I really hope we're sticking to the Cura Personalis motto. I'm like you in that I like to hope I can place more faith in my alma mater than simply as a school hungry for revenues, donations, and tuition money. I've always been proud to say that I went to Marquette, and I've always believed that it means more than just the piece of paper they handed me when I left.
This gets another +1 from me...there is no way the school should overlook this because of what a certain individual might bring to any athletic program or bottom line...
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Whoa whoa there. In no way am I suggesting rape. I actually agree with you that usually these incidents are just a bunch of young guys and gals that typically have z bit too much, hormones get cranked up and they hook up. Stuff happens every night in college and certainly athletes are doing better than the future psychologist options trader.
My Bobby Knight comment has to do with how cavalier your statements were...just as his were on an important topic. This can be serious stuff and shouldn't be made fun of or made out like it's no big deal. It might, in fact, be no big deal. In fact, it would not surprise me one bit if it's nothing. That doesn't mean we should dismiss it as if it's a joke
+1.
Its not a unnatural carnal knowledgeing joke PRN. And you made those comments to get a rise out everyone. If anyone needs to get over themselves right now,its you and your behavior.
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I'm amazed that was quoted in the article. Also, I may be a bit out of the loop, but this wasn't something that has been making its rounds around campus lately. I've heard some people who heard about it awhile ago, but that was only after this came out today. I hope that this is all a case of someone blowing something out of proportion, but no matter what happens, I hope the right thing is done, whatever that may be.
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http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
"That just goes to show that there's a double standard being held," sophomore Derrick Wendler said.
Wendler said the police investigation has been the talk on campus over the past week.
"If I did something like that, I would expect to be punished for it, just like they should be punished for it," Wendler said.
Did they really just randomly ask a student about rumors on campus, and then put his quotes in the story?
I thought that same thing. Is he a member of student government or some group that would make him a "voice" for the students?
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Boy .. listening to the TMJ4 story just now .. hearing a MU spokeswoman say (paraphrasing) .. we investigated the sexual harassment issue and the students were found "not responsible for sexual harassment under our student conduct code. We did a through investigation back in October."
.. Had there been more of a story there, the spokeswoman would have been FAR more circumspect about what she reported. That was a very definitive statement.
If you had that, and only that to decide .. you'd think this story was all smoke and no fire.
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the main thing that I've learned from reading this thread is that Jam has my proxy to speak for me on the subject until further notice.
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Boy .. listening to the TMJ4 story just now .. hearing a MU spokeswoman say (paraphrasing) .. we investigated the sexual harassment issue and the students were found "not responsible for sexual harassment under our student conduct code. We did a through investigation back in October."
Actually - she said not responsible of sexual "assault" - did not say anything re: harrassment.
Just trying to correct what little bit of record there is on this.
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As a father of a daughter....don't think this is cool at all.
No offense, and I mean that, but what does having a daughter have to do with it? I have two daughters, but I found the mere thought of rape or sexual assault abhorrent long before any of my children were born. On "sexual harrassment" I'm not so clear. I thought it dealt with establishing a hostile work involvement by a superior towards an underling. I guess I just don't get how it fits between students on a college campus.
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On "sexual harrassment" I'm not so clear. I thought it dealt with establishing a hostile work involvement by a superior towards an underling. I guess I just don't get how it fits between students on a college campus.
Who knew four "That's What She Said" jokes could cause such a stir...
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Was the horse male or female?
http://www.wisn.com/irresistible/27265114/detail.html (http://www.wisn.com/irresistible/27265114/detail.html)
were you in myrtle for golfin with Brucie or are you livin down there part time now?
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http://www.wisn.com/irresistible/27265114/detail.html (http://www.wisn.com/irresistible/27265114/detail.html)
What does Derrick Wendler think of this story? What's the "word on campus"?
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My gut feeling on this is that it ends up going nowhere...classic he said she said. The timing sucks and it's never good to have MU and especially the athletic department in the news like this.
The news like this as a top story (see video) is never good for the university. I'd hate to be in the PR office for MU this week.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/118783409.html?video=pop&t=a&bctid=CLIP_ID_1378218
http://www.wisn.com/r/27345574/detail.html
Of course that doesn't make anyone guilty, but rather accused...big difference. I feel bad for the 4 student athletes if this ends up being nothing. I also feel for the alledged victim who clearly feels something happened.
Sounds like they have been found in violation of the Harassment code of conduct but not Sexual Assault.
I'm sure much more to come on this.
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Stuff happens every night in college and certainly athletes are doing better than the future psychologist options trader.
And much, much better than vertically challenged future Direct TV salesmen.
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And much, much better than vertically challenged future Direct TV salesmen.
Probably, though the guys I've seen in Sales do ok...they tend to have the gift of gab and like to party. DIRECT TV...I wonder what company that is. Maybe you just mangled the spelling.
Meanwhile, doing just fine with my California bride. ;) It was always good to be one of the few Californians on the MU campus as well.... ;)
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No offense, and I mean that, but what does having a daughter have to do with it? I have two daughters, but I found the mere thought of rape or sexual assault abhorrent long before any of my children were born. On "sexual harrassment" I'm not so clear. I thought it dealt with establishing a hostile work involvement by a superior towards an underling. I guess I just don't get how it fits between students on a college campus.
I found it abhorrent as well, but I can tell you most people I know that have just boys vs those that have at least one daughter seem to view things a little differently. That idea of "boys will be boys" and the cynicism of the girl not being on the up and up is often present.
Interestingly enough, my wife talked about this tonight. Her very first comment...."was the girl motivated to get these guys busted...what was her angle...I knew some girls in college that would totally screw over guys". She immediately went to the defense of the guys. So we all view things differently Lenny, but I do believe that someone with a daughter views things differently (at times) than someone with only sons or no kids at all.
How many times have you heard someone make a comment about kids or raising kids when they have no kids of their own at all...they simply do not have the same relative experience.
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If you feel so bad about the negative publicity, why did you go out of your way to narrow down the accused?
My gut feeling on this is that it ends up going nowhere...classic he said she said. The timing sucks and it's never good to have MU and especially the athletic department in the news like this.
The news like this as a top story (see video) is never good for the university. I'd hate to be in the PR office for MU this week.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/118783409.html?video=pop&t=a&bctid=CLIP_ID_1378218
http://www.wisn.com/r/27345574/detail.html
Of course that doesn't make anyone guilty, but rather accused...big difference. I feel bad for the 4 student athletes if this ends up being nothing. I also feel for the alledged victim who clearly feels something happened.
Sounds like they have been found in violation of the Harassment code of conduct but not Sexual Assault.
I'm sure much more to come on this.
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I'd hate to be in the PR office for MU this week
Honestly...it's never a good time to be in the MU PR department the past few years
the Gold
AS dept chair
Domestic Partner benefits
Athletics Sexual assault/harassment
God bless those who have worked there the past few years...
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If you feel so bad about the negative publicity, why did you go out of your way to narrow down the accused?
Fair point. I thought the news did that for us already, but fair point. That's why I haven't named names and pulled back on getting too detailed on descriptions. Probably the prudent thing to do.
Let's not forget, it's one thing to be named in an incident report and quite another to have actually done anything. Nevertheless, some names on the incident report that we all wish weren't.
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If this was brought to the police on Tuesday do you think this affected the teams play against UNC?
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Still all sounds like vague speculative rumor mongering with no facts. Typical for this board. My friends uncle's cousin says this is all a crock.
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http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
"That just goes to show that there's a double standard being held," sophomore Derrick Wendler said.
Wendler said the police investigation has been the talk on campus over the past week.
"If I did something like that, I would expect to be punished for it, just like they should be punished for it," Wendler said.
Did they really just randomly ask a student about rumors on campus, and then put his quotes in the story?
Derrick is right... Their is a double standard. If a normal student sexually harrassed some female they wouldnt have their names dragged through the mud for all the world to here or see.
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As someone that works in Student Affairs let me clarify the student judicial process. While I don't know all the specific procedures at Marquette, most schools operate under a "more likely than not" scenario that a student violated a policy. That along with the basis that most student conduct philosophies are educational makes it more likely that a hearing officer will find someone responsible and have them learn from it even if they were not fully responsible for the violation.
If I were hearing a case similar to this (not necessarily these specific athletes, just students in general) it would have to be pretty evident that they were not involved to not find them responsible/give them sanctions. If they were merely present and being a bystander to the events I would probably find them responsible for the lower level harassment and not necessarily the assault. If I found them to be more actively involved there would definitely be the potential for increased sanctions/responsibility for assault. The fact that they were not found responsible of sexual assault leads me to believe they were in the wrong, but definitely weren't living up to MU's Code of Conduct.
This of course is under the premise that there was no preferential treatment and no facts were hidden during the process. I'm not a long-time practicing student affairs professional but I know enough about the process to explain it on an online forum such as this.
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goldeneagles09...thank you for that. Obviously everyone involved made poor choices and should be reprimanded for those choices.
The question I have is, what are an institution's reponsibilities when it comes to contacting the actual police about accusations this severe? Can they? Should they? Does it have to rise to a certain level before this occurs?
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goldeneagles09...thank you for that. Obviously everyone involved made poor choices and should be reprimanded for those choices.
The question I have is, what are an institution's reponsibilities when it comes to contacting the actual police about accusations this severe? Can they? Should they? Does it have to rise to a certain level before this occurs?
The first report I read stated that in this particular type of case, the decision of whether to go to MPD lies with the victim alone. This contrasts with when DPS finds weed in a dorm room (auto-contact MPD). I think the sensitive nature of the offense as it concerns the victim is what puts the ball in the victim's court.
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lawwarrior, hypothetically, what if the rape was clearly more brutal? And the victim for whatever reason still didn't want to go forward. MU would still need to contact the police if there were evidence of a crime right? That line needs to be drawn somewhere I'm thinking.
But I guess in this case, there was no physical evidence that a crime was committed.
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The first report I read stated that in this particular type of case, the decision of whether to go to MPD lies with the victim alone. This contrasts with when DPS finds weed in a dorm room (auto-contact MPD). I think the sensitive nature of the offense as it concerns the victim is what puts the ball in the victim's court.
And seeing and recognizing drugs likely falls into the category of giving DPS that duty to call MPD. Much like if they witnessed an assault of any kind.
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The first report I read stated that in this particular type of case, the decision of whether to go to MPD lies with the victim alone. This contrasts with when DPS finds weed in a dorm room (auto-contact MPD). I think the sensitive nature of the offense as it concerns the victim is what puts the ball in the victim's court.
Though not a lawyer myself, that is the way I had been interpretting it. If MU goes to the police with information they cannot prove and the victim does not want to go to the police themselves, it could place the victim in a difficult position. MU investigated and did not feel it warranted an assualt - if the victim did not want to pursue it with the police, how could they?
I will not speculate that MU handled it poorly. No reason to do so at this time. If it comes out after the fact, they will deserve all the condemnation that comes their way. But, if we are to presume innocence until proven guilty of the individuals, who do not some allow the University the same?
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lawwarrior, hypothetically, what if the rape was clearly more brutal? And the victim for whatever reason still didn't want to go forward. MU would still need to contact the police if there were evidence of a crime right? That line needs to be drawn somewhere I'm thinking.
But I guess in this case, there was no physical evidence that a crime was committed.
You would think there's a line, but the way the jsonline writer quoted MU sure made it sound like in sexual assault cases, the decision to go to MPD was the victim's.
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As someone that works in Student Affairs let me clarify the student judicial process. While I don't know all the specific procedures at Marquette, most schools operate under a "more likely than not" scenario that a student violated a policy. That along with the basis that most student conduct philosophies are educational makes it more likely that a hearing officer will find someone responsible and have them learn from it even if they were not fully responsible for the violation.
If I were hearing a case similar to this (not necessarily these specific athletes, just students in general) it would have to be pretty evident that they were not involved to not find them responsible/give them sanctions. If they were merely present and being a bystander to the events I would probably find them responsible for the lower level harassment and not necessarily the assault. If I found them to be more actively involved there would definitely be the potential for increased sanctions/responsibility for assault. The fact that they were not found responsible of sexual assault leads me to believe they were in the wrong, but definitely weren't living up to MU's Code of Conduct.
This of course is under the premise that there was no preferential treatment and no facts were hidden during the process. I'm not a long-time practicing student affairs professional but I know enough about the process to explain it on an online forum such as this.
Are students typically represented by attorneys when appearing before MU's judicial process? If so, are they represented at the university's expense? Has Atty. Boyle represented students in these proceedings in the past?
An additional issue I find concerning here is that of Atty. Boyle being a booster and possibly offering his services as an improper benefit... My understanding of the bylaws is that unless he charged his usual rate (at least $300/hour) or offers these services at the same reduced rate to other MU students, this is a violation. Considering the university involvement, possibly a substantial one.
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Sexual assault cases are notoriously difficult to prove. If DPS didn't have any evidence (didn't witness it themselves, didn't have a bunch of other witnesses) and it was a he-said-she-said, then it seems reasonable to leave the decision to proceed in the hands of the victim while lending support to that person. That respects the potential that the victim not want to proceed (which happens a fair amount for one reason or another) and also respects the possibility of a Duke LAX scenario and doesn't preemptively toss the accused under the bus.
Reinko's point is well taken too. If someone just reports an assault to DPS they may not have an actual duty to report it. So then they have the leeway to adopt a policy like they have.
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Who said Boyle represented the students in the internal MU proceedings? Someone commented that Boyle was working with them, but I assumed that was for the potential criminal investigation, not the internal MU investigation. I could be wrong, but I don't want to read more into this than is actually out there.
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Who said Boyle represented the students in the internal MU proceedings? Someone commented that Boyle was working with them, but I assumed that was for the potential criminal investigation, not the internal MU investigation. I could be wrong, but I don't want to read more into this than is actually out there.
I would assume your assumption to be correct. Now that it is a potential legal matter, an attorney would be involved. Prior to that, not necessary
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Who said Boyle represented the students in the internal MU proceedings? Someone commented that Boyle was working with them, but I assumed that was for the potential criminal investigation, not the internal MU investigation. I could be wrong, but I don't want to read more into this than is actually out there.
"Defense attorney Gerry Boyle represented the four athletes at the disciplinary hearing. He did not return 12 News' calls for comment."
http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
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I would assume your assumption to be correct. Now that it is a potential legal matter, an attorney would be involved. Prior to that, not necessary
depends how serious the hearing is. If the MU disciplinary panel is really getting into the who, how, when, etc... and the kids don't know any better, they might be creating evidence that could come back to bite them in a real court.
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The question I have is, what are an institution's reponsibilities when it comes to contacting the actual police about accusations this severe? Can they? Should they? Does it have to rise to a certain level before this occurs?
Here's MU's (at least publically published policy) on sexual assault cases.
http://marquette.edu/publicsafety/SRG-Sexual-Assault.shtml
Marquette is committed to providing confidential, caring support and assistance to any student or employee who is the victim of an assault. Officers have been specially trained to help obtain medical assistance, counseling and related support for victims. Officers are available to inform victims of reporting options relating to Public Safety and the appropriate law enforcement agency. Informing Public Safety of an assault does not obligate the victim to pursue formal action through the university's student conduct process or criminal Âjustice system.
All reports of sexual assault are kept confidential, unless otherwise required by law. Confidential and anonymous assistance and referrals also are available through Helping Abuse and Violence End Now, Campus Ministry, the Counseling Center, the Student Health Service, the Office of Student Development, other university offices and community support agencies. If necessary, your academic or Marquette work schedule and housing can be modified to accommodate counseling, court proceedings, security or other concerns.
If a police report is filed, officers will assist the victim with the reporting process. Members of the Victim/Witness Services Unit are available to provide escorts to all related appointments and court proceedings. If an assault suspect is a Marquette student, the victim also will have the option of pursuing the case through the university's student conduct system. Student victims of sexual assault will be informed about on-campus student conduct procedures and services provided for victims. The victim and suspect may be present during on-campus hearings, and each may have a support person with him or her. The victim will be informed of the results of the student conduct hearing unless the release of such information is prohibited by state or federal restrictions. Any student found responsible for sexually assaulting another student will be subject to all levels of university discipline, including suspension or expulsion.
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Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen anything that specifically mentioned that.
However, since that's the same story that used the ridiculous random student comment, it makes me question this journalist a little.
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Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen anything that specifically mentioned that.
However, since that's the same story that used the ridiculous random student comment, it makes me question this journalist a little.
It was a copywriter for WISN12's tv station. Probably not a pulitzer in that intern's future.
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Who said Boyle represented the students in the internal MU proceedings? Someone commented that Boyle was working with them, but I assumed that was for the potential criminal investigation, not the internal MU investigation. I could be wrong, but I don't want to read more into this than is actually out there.
That would have been my initial thought but when I read the first few media releases last night and they mentioned that Boyle was there for the internal hearing that's when I posted that it told me all I needed to know about the situation.
GB ain't waddling into the Union for the hell of it on a cold Tuesday morning in November. That said, I don't think there's much to this.
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However, since that's the same story that used the ridiculous random student comment, it makes me question this journalist a little.
Those were the two items that jumped out at me as well. Who gives a rat's behind what that idiot thinks, and how on earth is he qualified to conclude as a matter of fact that they are receiving preferential treatment (even though in general, not necessarily in criminal matters, they should receive preferential treatment)?
As far as Boyle goes, his presence does make me a bit twitchy. Then again, it could be an indicator that there is something to this, just as much as that there is not.
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As far as Boyle goes, his presence does make me a bit twitchy. Then again, it could be an indicator that there is something to this, just as much as that there is not.
As has been mentioned before, he is a friend of the program. Maybe he was brought in to make sure, if the case had no merit, was handled appropriately. How many times do things get out of control because the accused/their lawyers/etc... get spooked? Might as well bring in a calm head, especially when its potentially testy or a PR nightmare.
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As has been mentioned before, he is a friend of the program. Maybe he was brought in to make sure, if the case had no merit, was handled appropriately. How many times do things get out of control because the accused/their lawyers/etc... get spooked? Might as well bring in a calm head, especially when its potentially testy or a PR nightmare.
Correct. Not to mention potential for future lawsuits against MU, etc.
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Correct. Not to mention potential for future lawsuits against MU, etc.
I suppose the Duke Lax situation has changed how all programs view allegations. Especially one that could mushroom into a messy legal issue. Make sure that they have the best representation they can to protect theirs and the programs interets.
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I suppose the Duke Lax situation has changed how all programs view allegations. Especially one that could mushroom into a messy legal issue. Make sure that they have the best representation they can to protect theirs and the programs interets.
Agree.
Smart thinking.
The timing doesn't bother me because the slower and quieter these types of things go, the better.
"Public" and "Fast" may be what people think they want, but it would increase the chance of errors exponentially.
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I've spoken to some sources in local media and I have been able to find out some information on this event.
In all honesty, this story seems like it has been blown way out of proportion because/therefore people are expecting the worst. Think disney version of Duke LaX
Yes I know there are people on this board who have daughters and think that "boys will be boys" is a terrible way to put things, but remember we were all college guys once and we've all said some stupid things that we thought were funny at the time.
As for Boyle's presence- I thought MU kept him on retainer and would rep MU players regardless. A traffic ticket or off campus incident.. Boyle would still be involved.
rocky's edit - judicial removal of "rumors" from "media sources".
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Like usual... what we know so far makes absolutely no sense. So here's my nickel:
1) If you're the victim of a crime, and you want to see the perpetrator brought to justice, why wait nearly 5 months? I can understand in some assault cases that a victim may wish to wait a few days, maybe weeks to digest everything... possibly even a month or so in some circumstances. IMO and generally speaking, someone who waits this long to file a police report has no interest in "criminal" justice; his/her interest is "civil" justice (a lawsuit). Of course, this is an oversimplification, the facts of the case may certainly warrant the delay in going to police... quite unlikely, though, given what's known thus far.
2) Is Gerry Boyle really appropriate??? IMO -- You only retain guys like Gerry Boyle, Johnnie Cochran, the Ambiguously Genson Duo, etc. when you know you're guilty and your only hope is the "song and dance" routine. Even if the guy is working pro-bono for MU, there are plenty of other competent law grads and friends-of-MU who would be not only happy to take the case for the accused but also just as capable of ensuring it's handled properly.
3) What exactly is 'sexual harassment' other than one of the most convoluted "laws" we have? While it's not a criminal matter, it can get you sued to holy hell, but you're not going to jail for making a dirty comment. Further, should a drunk man staring at a woman's cleavage when she's dressed up as Elvira for Halloween really constitute harassment? Apparently so, since our society allows you to ruin someone's life for this at your own discretion. IMO - 10% of harassment is truly harassment, 10% is not, and 80% is gray area.
4) Further, what responsibility is there for a victim, if any? Nobody ever deserves to be harassed, assaulted, etc., but there's a certain truth no one likes to admit about individuals who knowingly put themselves in bad situations and then want to play the "I'm-a-completely-100%-innocent-victim-card" when the "not-expected-but-not-necessarily-unexpected" happens. Here's a thought... if you don't want trouble, don't hire a stripper for your private, unmonitored LAX buddy party. While I would never use this excuse to exonerate a victim, there certainly needs to be a greater emphasis on personal responsibility in society.
5) Who actually took this story public? The article said "Milwaukee Police announced..." Did a reporter ask a random question at a police presser? Was it leaked to the media? Has it truly been the "talk" on campus? If it were the unilateral decision of MPD to go public prior to the conclusion of the criminal investigation, I would be very disturbed. Likewise, I would also be very disturbed if this was a concerted effort by the plaintiff's attorney to try the case in the media before suit is even filed (mission accomplished). (Edited... not the media... more like a few rogue Scoopers and bad journalists)
6) If the accused are as "high-profile" as those before me have claimed, why wasn't MU or the AD ready with a prepared statement the second it hit?
7) Why hasn't the J-S updated this story since yesterday's blog entry that hit shortly after 3pm? If there's something here, you think the media would be all over it.
Too many questions, not enough answers. There's a 50% chance this story is complete BS and an even likelier chance that for every claim of sexual assault, another actual sexual assault will never be reported.
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I just don't think there are much "legs" to this story right now. MU did a good job to quash any initial controversy over suggested preferential treatment. The local media is basically pretty tame, so they aren't going to push any harder. There is nothing on any national site.
We'll just see how the process plays out, but I seriously doubt it is going to lead to any charges whatsoever. I don't see how it can because there will be zero physical evidence. Five months is a long time.
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As has been mentioned before, he is a friend of the program. Maybe he was brought in to make sure, if the case had no merit, was handled appropriately. How many times do things get out of control because the accused/their lawyers/etc... get spooked? Might as well bring in a calm head, especially when its potentially testy or a PR nightmare.
As for Boyle's presence- I thought MU kept him on retainer and would rep MU players regardless. A traffic ticket or off campus incident.. Boyle would still be involved.
There seems to be some confusion here - a cozy relationship between Atty. Boyle and the athletic department does not make this better. See NCAA bylaw 16.02.3 Extra Benefit:
"An extra benefit is any special arrangement by an institutional employee or a representative of the institution's athletics interests to provide a student-athlete or the student-athlete's relative or friend a benefit not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation. Receipt of a benefit by student-athletes or their relatives or friends is not a violation of NCAA legislation if it is demonstrated that the same benefit is generally available to the institution's students or their relatives or friends or to a particular segment of the student body (e.g., foreign students, minority students) determined on a basis unrelated to athletics ability."
Note that a booster qualifies as a "representative of the institution's athletics interests." There are other explicit exceptions, but I have never heard of one for legal representation. I have little doubt that Atty. Boyle is well aware of the bylaws. So either the student athletes somehow came up with Atty. Boyle's normal private retainer, Atty. Boyle believes there is some exception to the above bylaw (e.g., he represents all minority students pro bono), or it was thought that the victim would not make the allegations public (thus keeping the violation a secret). If it was the latter, be prepared for the sh*t to really hit the fan.
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If Boyle sat with the players during the hearing, and the hearing lasted 30 min., and he charged them $150, that means each would have to come up with $37.50. I'm sure they could do that.
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If Boyle sat with the players during the hearing, and the hearing lasted 30 min., and he charged them $150, that means each would have to come up with $37.50. I'm sure they could do that.
Haha, you don't know how lawyers work. I'm sure were several hours of prep time preparing for the hearing ;)
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If Boyle sat with the players during the hearing, and the hearing lasted 30 min., and he charged them $150, that means each would have to come up with $37.50. I'm sure they could do that.
That's one way to spin it. However, I'm betting his normal minimum retainer is in the thousands. The other question is, even if the players came in to his office because they knew him, money in hand, why not refer it to another attorney that isn't a booster? If there was really no merit to the case, why not just give it to competent colleague and avoid the issue (especially if the going rate for such a hearing is pocket change to Atty. Boyle)? I suspect at some level, there was the thinking that no one would find out. Sorry guys, this stinks...
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I've spoken to some sources in local media and I have been able to find out some information on this event.
In all honesty, this story seems like it has been blown way out of proportion because/therefore people are expecting the worst. Think disney version of Duke LaX
Yes I know there are people on this board who have daughters and think that "boys will be boys" is a terrible way to put things, but remember we were all college guys once and we've all said some stupid things that we thought were funny at the time.
As for Boyle's presence- I thought MU kept him on retainer and would rep MU players regardless. A traffic ticket or off campus incident.. Boyle would still be involved.
rocky's edit - judicial removal of "rumors" from "media sources".
So, based on your sources, is this just all about something that was "said"? Because that would be a huuuuge relief.
I agree, we've all said stupid things, especially at a party and/or while drunk.
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That's one way to spin it. However, I'm betting his normal minimum retainer is in the thousands. The other question is, even if the players came in to his office because they knew him, money in hand, why not refer it to another attorney that isn't a booster? If there was really no merit to the case, why not just give it to competent colleague and avoid the issue (especially if the going rate for such a hearing is pocket change to Atty. Boyle)? I suspect at some level, there was the thinking that no one would find out. Sorry guys, this stinks...
Quite an assumption without any basis of fact.
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There seems to be some confusion here - a cozy relationship between Atty. Boyle and the athletic department does not make this better. See NCAA bylaw 16.02.3 Extra Benefit:
"An extra benefit is any special arrangement by an institutional employee or a representative of the institution's athletics interests to provide a student-athlete or the student-athlete's relative or friend a benefit not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation. Receipt of a benefit by student-athletes or their relatives or friends is not a violation of NCAA legislation if it is demonstrated that the same benefit is generally available to the institution's students or their relatives or friends or to a particular segment of the student body (e.g., foreign students, minority students) determined on a basis unrelated to athletics ability."
Note that a booster qualifies as a "representative of the institution's athletics interests." There are other explicit exceptions, but I have never heard of one for legal representation. I have little doubt that Atty. Boyle is well aware of the bylaws. So either the student athletes somehow came up with Atty. Boyle's normal private retainer, Atty. Boyle believes there is some exception to the above bylaw (e.g., he represents all minority students pro bono), or it was thought that the victim would not make the allegations public (thus keeping the violation a secret). If it was the latter, be prepared for the sh*t to really hit the fan.
I'm pretty sure the athletic department is able to provide legal representation for their athletes without it being a violation (I'm not positive, but its a hunch).
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That's one way to spin it. However, I'm betting his normal minimum retainer is in the thousands. The other question is, even if the players came in to his office because they knew him, money in hand, why not refer it to another attorney that isn't a booster? If there was really no merit to the case, why not just give it to competent colleague and avoid the issue (especially if the going rate for such a hearing is pocket change to Atty. Boyle)? I suspect at some level, there was the thinking that no one would find out. Sorry guys, this stinks...
And its a little odd for someone with no previous posts to come on here and tell us how much this stinks...Do you have something legitimate to add or are you just stirring the pot?
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Indeed I may stand corrected here. I've found a secondary source that suggest that "Actual and necessary expenses to attend proceedings conducted by the institution, its athletics conference or the NCAA that relate to the student-athlete's eligibility to participate in intercollegiate athletics or legal proceedings that result from the student-athlete's involvement in athletics practice or competitive events. The cost of legal representation in such proceedings also may be provided by the institution (or a representative of its athletics interests)." Certainly one could argue this relates to eligibility. I'm not pretending to have any "inside" sources. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a violation here.
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Note that a booster qualifies as a "representative of the institution's athletics interests." There are other explicit exceptions, but I have never heard of one for legal representation. I have little doubt that Atty. Boyle is well aware of the bylaws. So either the student athletes somehow came up with Atty. Boyle's normal private retainer, Atty. Boyle believes there is some exception to the above bylaw (e.g., he represents all minority students pro bono), or it was thought that the victim would not make the allegations public (thus keeping the violation a secret). If it was the latter, be prepared for the sh*t to really hit the fan.
Boyle wasn't giving legal advice by slipping anonymous notes to the players or disguising his voice while calling from a pay phone. He was representing them at a university hearing. Do you really think that he would appear as their counsel in front of a university organization if it was an NCAA violation to do so?
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Quite an assumption without any basis of fact.
what's the assumption? that from a PR standpoint it looks bad to have athletes represented at an in house MU investigation by the area's most prominent and wealthy defense attorney who also is an MU athletics booster? thats not assumption. thats just how it looks to every non-MU human being on the planet at first glance.
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So, based on your sources, is this just all about something that was "said"? Because that would be a huuuuge relief.
I agree, we've all said stupid things, especially at a party and/or while drunk.
yeah
Notice how little has been said of this story after the initial report? A half decent investigative reporter that doesnt ask some jackass student on the street what they think may have seen the MU Public Safety reports and been able to determine the story had peaked. Everything I understand indicates that this is more "harassment" than "assault"
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what's the assumption? that from a PR standpoint it looks bad to have athletes represented at an in house MU investigation by the area's most prominent and wealthy defense attorney who also is an MU athletics booster? thats not assumption. thats just how it looks to every non-MU human being on the planet at first glance.
No, the leap to an NCAA violation that was made by the poster. That MU may have done it thinking it would not get out in the public eye, thusly "getting away" with something. Then saying it stinks. Sorry, but without facts, that's quite an indicting comment that was made. And yes, without any supportive fact to level an accusation.
The premise of his post had NOTHING to do with the PR aspect. Did you even read the post?
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The athletic department knows what is and what isn't a NCAA violation. If Boyle was involved it wasn't a violation. They know what they are doing.
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You do realize that there are plenty of other men on the Marquette campus that treat women like absolute garbage as well, right? It's a problem that's not just confined to athletes (if it's even basketball players we're talking about here), but a lot of males on any college campus.
Nothing slimier than a college age male.
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The athletic department knows what is and what isn't a NCAA violation. If Boyle was involved it wasn't a violation. They know what they are doing.
Exactly. That is why that comment - in a couple of posts, no less, was mind boggling.
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Nothing slimier than a college age male.
Hmmm...Tom Crean
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The athletic department knows what is and what isn't a NCAA violation. If Boyle was involved it wasn't a violation. They know what they are doing.
Completely agree. We have to have some faith in the athletic department. I would hope they would have a much better idea of what is and what isn't a violation than we would.
I'm hopeful that at worst it is some form of harassment (not saying that should be condoned or anything, but I think a lot of us went straight to the worst case scenario). Like Ari said, if this thing had any legs, it would be a much bigger deal by now. If it was something real bad, then I feel that something would have leaked to the media throughout the 5 months. Honestly, I'm surprised even if it is nothing that something hadn't been leaked to the media through the 5 months.
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Hmmm...Tom Crean
Hmmm...Tom Crean. Fixed.
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No, the leap to an NCAA violation that was made by the poster. That MU may have done it thinking it would not get out in the public eye, thusly "getting away" with something. Then saying it stinks. Sorry, but without facts, that's quite an indicting comment that was made. And yes, without any supportive fact to level an accusation.
The premise of his post had NOTHING to do with the PR aspect. Did you even read the post?
kum see kum sah. the post you directly responded to didnt explicitly mention NCAA violations either. it just said that it would have made sense for Boyle to be a little less direct in the involvement of the whole thing. I merely agreed that it certainly stinks at first glance - i read stinks to mean it just doesnt smell right.
I also agreed that I find it likely that if Boyle had to be paid to not be a violation, the guys wouldn't have been able or willing to afford his retainer for an insular MU investigation. Most here are right to point out though that the threshold for a violation is whether he can do it for free or not. I doubt Boyle would even have taken the case from the guys for pay, because you'd just be inviting an overly thorough investigation of his billing practices as it relates to the matter.
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Nothing slimier than a college age male.
You guys are all making the assumption that whoever made the allegation had all her faculties. By the same token as "Nothing slimier than a college age male" you can also say, "There is nothing nuttier than a (college age) female."
Some of you need to REALLY get a grip! This is a nothing story!
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The last news article about this story appears to have come out 17 hours ago. While I wouldn't discount the story completely dying, it seems to me if Ari's info is correct, then this is going to maybe devolve from a major Milwaukee news story to an oddball Deadspin story sooner than we think.
It also seems that some of the major Milwaukee media guys I would suspect to jump at a story like this (Mark Belling and WSSP guys) have poo-pooed this so far. Should be interesting to watch the news cycle the next day or two and how these types report on this (if at all).
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I've spoken to some sources in local media and I have been able to find out some information on this event.
In all honesty, this story seems like it has been blown way out of proportion because/therefore people are expecting the worst. Think disney version of Duke LaX
Yes I know there are people on this board who have daughters and think that "boys will be boys" is a terrible way to put things, but remember we were all college guys once and we've all said some stupid things that we thought were funny at the time.
As for Boyle's presence- I thought MU kept him on retainer and would rep MU players regardless. A traffic ticket or off campus incident.. Boyle would still be involved.
rocky's edit - judicial removal of "rumors" from "media sources".
Unfortunately or fortunately, (depending how you view things) the world is a way different place. One person's joke is another person's harassment.
A lot of what I'm hearing concurs with what one of the reports said last night...not sexual assault but yes a violation of harassment policy. Certainly a better conclusion if this is what comes to pass. Doesn't make it right, but agree also that we say stupid things. Hate hearing that their names are on the incident report, bad for the university.
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You guys are all making the assumption that whoever made the allegation had all her faculties. By the same token as "Nothing slimier than a college age male" you can also say, "There is nothing nuttier than a (college age) female."
Some of you need to REALLY get a grip! This is a nothing story!
Unfortunately the Milwaukee press disagree as it was one of the top stories on the newscasts last night. "Nothing story" may be right in reality, but perception often trumps that. Unfortunate that it came to this and the young woman, DPS, MU, etc couldn't keep the investigation private. She (or her family) obviously doesn't feel that enough progress was made. This is also why I brought up the "do you have daughters" comment yesterday. Fathers of their "precious little girls" sometimes push very hard on this stuff and don't often think their daughters could ever possibly be in a state where all her faculties were blurred or dulled in some fashion. Also a reality among some folks. Not saying that is in play here but who knows. We've all seen parents that believe their child never did anything wrong EVER and will fight the principal, the coach, the administrator at every turn.
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Edit; Changed my mind . . .
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Edit; Changed my mind . . .
Oh c'mon, let's us be the judge of that. You can do it.
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Edit; Changed my mind . . .
Wise choice.
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When this is over, assuming there are no charges filed, I have the most inappropriate joke ever. Driving me nuts, but to use it now would be just plain wrong. So, again, let justice be done.
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You guys are all making the assumption that whoever made the allegation had all her faculties. By the same token as "Nothing slimier than a college age male" you can also say, "There is nothing nuttier than a (college age) female who hangs around college basketball/football players."
Some of you need to REALLY get a grip! This is a nothing story!
Fixed.
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This story broke via the Journal Sentinel. How has a thread for this news not been started? It happened last October and the girl is just now reporting it. Obviously the most likely suspects are members of the basketball team since they all live in Humphrey Hall. Also, did the girl wait until basketball season was over to release the information?
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See the Superbar
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Hate hearing that their names are on the incident report, bad for the university.
Where did you find this incident report? Is it a public document?
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This story broke via the Journal Sentinel. How has a thread for this news not been started? It happened last October and the girl is just now reporting it. Obviously the most likely suspects are members of the basketball team since they all live in Humphrey Hall. Also, did the girl wait until basketball season was over to release the information?
Merged it with the existing thread. Also, removed names from your post, as that's inappropriate speculation at this point.
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Where did you find this incident report? Is it a public document?
any time public safety investigages there's going to be an incident report. I probably have 15 on file somewhere. doesn't mean that I committed any crimes.
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Once at Carpenter Hall we had a penny war between the floors. The third floor (an all girls floor who we disliked) won it and I told them it was easy to win a penny war when your floor is filled with 2 cent whores!
I found out that counts as a hate crime. Oops! :-\
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Once at Carpenter Hall we had a penny war between the floors. The third floor (an all girls floor who we disliked) won it and I told them it was easy to win a penny war when your floor is filled with 2 cent whores!
I found out that counts as a hate crime. Oops! :-\
Careful, I have a daughter.
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any time public safety investigages there's going to be an incident report. I probably have 15 on file somewhere. doesn't mean that I committed any crimes.
I assumed DPS would file a report. I was more interested in whether or not anyone has access to incident reports. Chicos seems to be implying that he has viewed the incident report concerning this whole situation, and I just wondered how that was possible.
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I assumed DPS would file a report. I was more interested in whether or not anyone has access to incident reports. Chicos seems to be implying that he has viewed the incident report concerning this whole situation, and I just wondered how that was possible.
Incident Reports are not public.
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Incident Reports are not public.
Thank God. That time the roomies and I launched a beer balloons at groups freshman from my 4th floor Campus Town apt would have followed me around till my dying day.
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MarqPTM, Jimbo, and myself were written up for drinking in the dorms. Jimbo, being the pre-law student that he was, went to the Union (Student Affairs maybe?) and was able to get a copy of the DPS incident report to see what we were going up against at the Student Conduct board.
Maybe you are only allowed to view your own incidents.
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Thank God. That time the roomies and I launched a beer balloons at groups freshman from my 4th floor Campus Town apt would have followed me around till my dying day.
That's just awesome.
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That's just awesome.
I would also like to take this time to formally apologize to any and all underclassmen that spilled out of Angelo's at around 2:20AM every Saturday night that may have been hit with the following projectiles from Campus Town East 418 in 2001-2002.
-Beer Balloons
-Pies
-Spoons
-Mini Basketballs
-Ice Cubes
Respectfully yours,
Reinko
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Once at Carpenter Hall we had a penny war between the floors. The third floor (an all girls floor who we disliked) won it and I told them it was easy to win a penny war when your floor is filled with 2 cent whores!
I found out that counts as a hate crime. Oops! :-\
I bet Leticia loved that one
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MarqPTM, Jimbo, and myself were written up for drinking in the dorms. Jimbo, being the pre-law student that he was, went to the Union (Student Affairs maybe?) and was able to get a copy of the DPS incident report to see what we were going up against at the Student Conduct board.
Maybe you are only allowed to view your own incidents.
I was written up three times. One more and I was done in the dorms.
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I bet Leticia loved that one
Actually, she was the one who informed me it was a hate crime haha.
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Actually, she was the one who informed me it was a hate crime haha.
She also informed me that I was no longer welcome to live in Tower, we got along great
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I believe she trashed MarqPTM's neon sign.
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I believe she trashed MarqPTM's neon sign.
I imagine because it was offensive to women, like this one.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3661332230_a5bf007e98.jpg)
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I think it was a standard Miller or Coors neon sign. I forget it's been so long.
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Thank God. That time the roomies and I launched a beer balloons at groups freshman from my 4th floor Campus Town apt would have followed me around till my dying day.
A perfectly good waste of beer!
Well, unless it was warm and old.
Like the Old Milwaukee keg that we had in our house for 2 months before dumping it.
That would have been an amazing waste of crappy beer!
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I think it was a standard Miller or Coors neon sign. I forget it's been so long.
Perhaps a Michael Scott inspired neon sign.
(http://www.neonsign.com/eng_neonsigns/images/stpauligirlneon.jpg)
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I think it was a standard Miller or Coors neon sign. I forget it's been so long.
It was a Coors Light. I hated her. So much.
So glad her dorm budget had to pay my medical expenses when busting my head open.
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A perfectly good waste of beer!
Well, unless it was warm and old.
Like the Old Milwaukee keg that we had in our house for 2 months before dumping it.
That would have been an amazing waste of crappy beer!
The old keg beer we had sitting around in our kitchen was reserved for freshman at parties where we needed extra cash (good God were we pretty boys to freshman), or the penalty for getting 4th in Mario Kart, 4 straight times, or getting skunked in Euchre.
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I would also like to take this time to formally apologize to any and all underclassmen that spilled out of Angelo's at around 2:20AM every Saturday night that may have been hit with the following projectiles from Campus Town East 418 in 2001-2002.
-Beer Balloons
-Pies
-Spoons
-Mini Basketballs
-Ice Cubes
Respectfully yours,
Reinko
I actually think I was standing out front of Murphys the time you all threw pies. I remember kinds on that corner running and screaming and frosting. Cant be certain though as I was hammered at that time on a Saturday night... like good Marquette students should be- someone's daughter or not.
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I assumed DPS would file a report. I was more interested in whether or not anyone has access to incident reports. Chicos seems to be implying that he has viewed the incident report concerning this whole situation, and I just wondered how that was possible.
I have NOT seen the incident report. Hope I'm making that crystal clear. I don't even know if they call it an incident report but whatever they call the "form", let's just say some folks have seen it and at least two of the names mentioned in said form.
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not sure if anyone posted this yet, but there was a mention of it in the DPS reports way back in November...
http://marquettetribune.org/2010/11/04/news/dps-reports/dps-reports-110310-mg1-ify2-dac3/
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not sure if anyone posted this yet, but there was a mention of it in the DPS reports way back in November...
http://marquettetribune.org/2010/11/04/news/dps-reports/dps-reports-110310-mg1-ify2-dac3/
KO back in town on October 2nd?
Oct. 2
At 6:24 p.m. a male suspect, 51, not affiliated with Marquette, was walking while intoxicated in the center of the road in the 900 block of North 15th Street. When DPS stopped him, he reached inside the squad car and physically assaulted a DPS officer. MPD took him into custody for felony battery.
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Since the University has the potential to be sued, they better hire an attorney to represent the players no matter what happen. It would be nice to know what actually happen. Sexual harrassemt can range form inappropriate touching to verbal harrassment. What is inappropriate touching to one young lady may be okay with another lady. I am not defending anybody here, but it just may be the player grabed the wrong girls XXX. I would not expect any girl being happy with me being overly friendly with them. However, if you spent much time at the pro am there were a lot of girls chasing the players around. Inappropriatley touching/grabing a girl is not right, but if the first 50 girls were okay with it, the player was probably surprised by the objection of this women.
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This, of course, makes no sense.
The university, much less the coaching staff, doesn't control the timeline here as far as the girl reporting/not reporting to police. Unlike ND, Marquette doesn't have a certified police force. This girl could have, and perhaps should have, taken this to police from the start. The fact that she didn't at the very least raises legitimate questions about the allegations.
I understand there's no universal way for a person to deal with something like this, but if another student commits a serious act of violence against me, I'm not taking it to Public Safety and hoping they do something about it when they, in fact, have no power to do something about it. I'm calling the cops.
No, it doesn't raise legitimate questions. If she is in a dorm and walks back the first person she seas is going to be the front desk who will ask her if she is ok. If that person calls anyone it will be public safety.
If she gets back to her room then it will be the roommate, who will almost certainly go to the nearest RA. If that RA calls anyone it will be Public Safety. If she goes home and decides to call someone on her own it probably would be the police, but she probably doesn't make that call on her own. That's why most rapes go unreported. Didn't take Crim 001 at MU?
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The university defines sexual assault as: "Engaging in sexual assault, defined as any form of sexual contact with another person without the consent of that person." (http://www.marquette.edu/osd/policies/conduct/standards_of_conduct.shtml) So this is the standard that the hearing committee used. This is a broad definition- almost identical to WI's definition of 4th Degree Sexual Assault in §940.225, which is a Class A misdemeanor. (http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&d=stats&jd=940.225)
If the student athletes are now charged and convicted under the legal standards of fourth degree sexual assault (or worse), we are looking at some very dire circumstances for MU, and that's an understatement.
The links below are MU's hearing procedures if anyone is curious about how those work:
http://www.marquette.edu/osd/policies/conduct/conduct_procedures.shtml
http://www.marquette.edu/osd/policies/conduct/hearing_procedures.shtml
Here's to hoping MU did things right on their end.
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Not sure if anyone else did this or not and I really dont feel like reading 8 pages of this to double check, but I checked the MU teams schedules from that fall to see what other teams would be in town that weekend:
Cross Country: was in New York for BigEast Championships
Men's Golf: they were in California
that leaves the remaining two as possibles and at least were in town that weekend:
Soccer: Had Senior night game @ Valley Fields and won vs. SetonHall in OT
Tennis: They were also in town that weekend, no events near Halloween...
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Not sure if anyone else did this or not and I really dont feel like reading 8 pages of this to double check, but I checked the MU teams schedules from that fall to see what other teams would be in town that weekend:
Cross Country: was in New York for BigEast Championships
Men's Golf: they were in California
that leaves the remaining two as possibles and at least were in town that weekend:
Soccer: Had Senior night game @ Valley Fields and won vs. SetonHall in OT
Tennis: They were also in town that weekend, no events near Halloween...
Don't worry, it was basketball.
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Not sure if anyone else did this or not and I really dont feel like reading 8 pages of this to double check, but I checked the MU teams schedules from that fall to see what other teams would be in town that weekend:
Cross Country: was in New York for BigEast Championships
Men's Golf: they were in California
that leaves the remaining two as possibles and at least were in town that weekend:
Soccer: Had Senior night game @ Valley Fields and won vs. SetonHall in OT
Tennis: They were also in town that weekend, no events near Halloween...
Tower... I feel your pain. So many jokes to be made, so not the right time.
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Yeah, this involves basketball players. There is no question.
The players that I've heard were involved make absolutely no sense, though. I don't see anything coming from these accusations.
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Tower... I feel your pain. So many jokes to be made, so not the right time.
WTMJ TV Reporting some new information in the 5 PM newscast:
a. "4 SAs touched her and at least one forced her to do sexual acts against her will."
b. "A handful of other young women may have information about what happened in that oncampus apartment and police are working to interview them."
c. "Investigation by Milwaukee police is still in beginning stages."
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No, it doesn't raise legitimate questions. If she is in a dorm and walks back the first person she seas is going to be the front desk who will ask her if she is ok. If that person calls anyone it will be public safety.
If she gets back to her room then it will be the roommate, who will almost certainly go to the nearest RA. If that RA calls anyone it will be Public Safety. If she goes home and decides to call someone on her own it probably would be the police, but she probably doesn't make that call on her own. That's why most rapes go unreported. Didn't take Crim 001 at MU?
I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to get across ... or probably I didn't write it clearly enough. I'm not suggesting that the fact she didn't take it to cops instead of or before public safety is going to raise questions, but the fact she didn't take it to cops at all.
Believe me, from experience I can tell you any prosecutor is going to look twice - and then a few more times - at an adult's sex assault accusation that's been left unreported to law enforcement authorities for six months. Maybe that's not fair, but it is reality.
Didn't take Crim 001, but I'd venture to guess my knowledge of and professional experience related to the criminal justice system is greater than a very large majority around here.
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MU did a thorough investigation and found no wrong doing. I would bet anything that MU's liability on this situation makes their investigation to be superior to MPD. School has too much lose and did not take this lightly.
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MU did a thorough investigation and found no wrong doing. I would bet anything that MU's liability on this situation makes their investigation to be superior to MPD. School has too much lose and did not take this lightly.
Correction: MU did find wrongdoing - sexual harassement.
MPD is investigating whether there was sexual assault that took place.
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WTMJ TV Reporting some new information in the 5 PM newscast:
a. "4 SAs touched her and at least one forced her to do sexual acts against her will."
b. "A handful of other young women may have information about what happened in that oncampus apartment and police are working to interview them."
c. "Investigation by Milwaukee police is still in beginning stages."
If this came out at the hearing it would have been reported to the police. I don't think it would be upto the victim to notify them if it was this bad. Would it?
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If this came out at the hearing it would have been reported to the police. I don't think it would be upto the victim to notify them if it was this bad. Would it?
Wouldn't MPD still need to have a complaining witness?
I don't claim to know...my knowledge comes solely from Law and Order: SVU
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I took Crim 001 and I don't know either haha.
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foreverwarriors---I sure hope MPD find nothing because of MU would have major liability if they botched things. Your post got me worried.
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If this came out at the hearing it would have been reported to the police. I don't think it would be upto the victim to notify them if it was this bad. Would it?
According to the University policy it is up to the victim as to whether to go to the police. (see, this thread, apprx. page 3ish).
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Wouldn't MPD still need to have a complaining witness?
I don't claim to know...my knowledge comes solely from Law and Order: SVU
Not necessarily. They would, depending on the evidence, ultimately need a statement and cooperation from a victim at some point, but they wouldn't need the victim to make the initial complaint for them to open an investigation.
I know it's a different circumstance, but it's not uncommon these days for cops to make arrests and prosecutors to bring charges in domestic violence cases without the cooperation of a victim. Of course, this requires other witnesses and physical evidence. And I've seen prosecutors take sex abuse cases to trial (and get a conviction) without the cooperation of a complaining witness.
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Does everyone on this site have to have an "agenda"
This site is an embarrassment to Marquette University.....
I hope when I was this young......I was not so spoiled or immature......
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foreverwarriors---I sure hope MPD find nothing because of MU would have major liability if they botched things. Your post got me worried.
Goose- I'm only basing what I said off of articles I read. per the wisn article from yesterday "WISN 12 News has learned that the four men were found to have violated the university's policy against harassment after being cleared of sexual assault allegations by a campus disciplinary panel."
http://www.wisn.com/news/27345574/detail.html
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My gut (and a couple other things) make me confident that this will be mostly smoke and not a lot of fire. I suppose I could be wrong, but I'll be surprised if this develops into something serious.
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foreverwarrior---I am highly confident this is smoke only.
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Do cross country/soccer/golf/tennis live in humphry? I really have no idea.
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WTMJ TV Reporting some new information in the 5 PM newscast:
a. "4 SAs touched her and at least one forced her to do sexual acts against her will."
b. "A handful of other young women may have information about what happened in that oncampus apartment and police are working to interview them."
c. "Investigation by Milwaukee police is still in beginning stages."
I have a daughter....don't like what I'm reading. Never force a chick to do something against her will. Hopefully it's not true.
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Ok everyone, let me get a few things straight, not specifically about this incident, but nonetheless important.
Department of Public Safety:
1. I know many of the officers here, some are basketball fans, others are not, but everyone of them takes their job unbelievably seriously. No one here would ever cover something up, and no way would they get the entire department to go along with it. These are good people, and are really good at what they do.
2. DPS has jurisdiction over students enrolled at MU, (the basketball players are obviously). What makes the fact that they are not sworn police is important, but not for the reason most suspect. Marquette is a private university, and thus can act however they want. The officers here do not necessarily have to follow the strict laws governing police actions, most notably with gathering evidence, and entering dorms without a permit, because students pretty much sign their life away when their enroll, and enter the dorms. This often means DPS investigations are much more complete than MPD investigations due to the free reign DPS officers have over students. On top of that, typically DPS officers are going to be handling one big investigation at a time, and especially one like this involving student-athletes. MPD may be handling 50 sexual assaults at one time, who knows.
3. DPS and MPD have a great relationship, and talk to each other. I would be shocked if MPD finds something DPS does not, unless witnesses have since decided to come forward after the amount of time, and refused to talk to DPS.
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Warrior---I agree. MU investigation can go deeper than MPD and they have more to lose. The spokeswoman was extremely confident last evening on news. Everything I heard today makes me 100% believe MU left no stone unturned. In addition, bball players or not MU does not take this lightly. The school has WAY too much to lose. Every school learned from Duke LAX and put the full court press on in it's investigation.
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My question is if it was that serious why would she DECLINE police assistance right after it happened? In the channel 12 story on it it says she was OFFERED police assistance in October but DECLINED it then. So she is the one that has to go to MPD if she wants to report it to them, and they made it easy on her by offering her assistance, yet she didn't want to. That makes me think it wasn't extremely serious, because if it was I would have to think she would accept the offer for MPD assistance. I really don't know though.
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what's the assumption? that from a PR standpoint it looks bad to have athletes represented at an in house MU investigation by the area's most prominent and wealthy defense attorney who also is an MU athletics booster? thats not assumption. thats just how it looks to every non-MU human being on the planet at first glance.
Gerry Boyle has been representing MU athletes for years. MU has very qualified NCAA compliance officers. They would not screw up something so basic.
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Everything I heard today makes me 100% believe MU left no stone unturned. In addition, bball players or not MU does not take this lightly. The school has WAY too much to lose.
It seems to me that bball players have, in the past, violated rules/laws and the university has *not* covered it up. In fact, it seems to me that there were consequences for some in past for violations that were far less serious than an alleged sexual assault. There is NO WAY that MU would cover something like that up. It's out of character for the institution over the past few years to do so.
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Not sure if anyone else did this or not and I really dont feel like reading 8 pages of this to double check, but I checked the MU teams schedules from that fall to see what other teams would be in town that weekend:
Cross Country: was in New York for BigEast Championships
Men's Golf: they were in California
that leaves the remaining two as possibles and at least were in town that weekend:
Soccer: Had Senior night game @ Valley Fields and won vs. SetonHall in OT
Tennis: They were also in town that weekend, no events near Halloween...
Why wouldn't you go through the effort of at least checking out that it has been acknowledged here repeatedly that it was basketball players?
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lawwarrior--There is NO WAY thhe school covers this up. I believe they will dig deeper than ever because their ass is on the line.
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The DPS report from November, the television stations, and newspaper all have stated that police involvement was declined. I find the timing very interesting, considering it went to the police three days before MU's Sweet Sixteen game.
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The DPS report from November, the television stations, and newspaper all have stated that police involvement was declined. I find the timing very interesting, considering it went to the police three days before MU's Sweet Sixteen game.
More and more it seems to be a case where an allegation was made, the University investigated it, the allegations were not found to be backed by evidence, and after many weeks and sudden good press for certain players, the alleged victim decided it was time to rain on the parade and "bring them down" so now the police are called in.
Considering the horrendous media the MPD has gotten the last few years, it wouldn't surprise me if a few of the cigar-smokers felt this might be the time to recoup some good will from the public.
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lawwarrior--There is NO WAY thhe school covers this up. I believe they will dig deeper than ever because their ass is on the line.
I agree. Maybe I was unclear in the way I said it.
The other thing that makes me doubt that this was serious are the fact that there have been less serious incidents that have led to people leaving the team in the recent past. If the allegations were true, under no circumstances would these guys have been on the team all season.
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WMLW news just reported, the alleged victim is thinking about dropping the case after threats are made towards her.
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WMLW news just reported, the alleged victim is thinking about dropping the case after threats are made towards her.
Wow. I'm getting more and more strongly against this 'victim'.
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A very high up editor of the Journal Sentinel said today that they would consider publishing the names (without them being charged) only if they felt it was likely that there was a cover up going on by MU. They haven't published the names. I think that supports the (obvious) notion that there is no cover up.
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The Office of Student Development handled the conduct cases when I worked there (last year was '05). When someone had a conduct hearing, you could go in and view your conduct report. It drove people crazy because the rules were, you couldn't photocopy anything, but you could sit there and copy it word for word by writing it down. Only people who were on the conduct report could view it. No public record of any kind. I'm confident that the deans that worked in this office wouldn't have stood by and let something this serious slide, "just because it's the basketball team." No way. Things may have changed since I worked there.
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WMLW news just reported, the alleged victim is thinking about dropping the case after threats are made towards her.
If there are threats, they need to be dealt with; however, given the whole timeline and circumstances of this case, I wouldn't be as surprised if "threats" is cover for "I have a weak case".
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My impression has been that the girl honestly didn't realize how big of a deal this would become. I don't think she ever intended the media to be so intrusive or involved. Even if I were a victim, I might prefer anguish in privacy to justice in public, due to the sensitive nature of the claim. You could interpret dropping the charges as a sign that the allegations aren't serious/are unfounded, but you could also see this as a scared girl who was looking for more help than she got at MU (and certainly got more publicity than she bargained for) and is only now realizing that the additional help comes at a great personal cost. She might see "justice" to her accusers as less important than protecting her own dignity. I'm not sure I would handle it differently.
I'm just speculating, of course. But I figure before we throw this girl under the bus, we could give her the benefit of the doubt. I would imagine she isn't on the Scoop (over)analyzing how every event in the day-to-day life of college basketball affects our team....not that there's anything wrong with that. :)
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WMLW news just reported, the alleged victim is thinking about dropping the case after threats are made towards her.
That's pretty sad ,if true, that people are making threats. This is why so many people that are truly assaulted don't come forward.
No need to be threatening people or intimidating them. Maybe she's making those up, maybe she's not.
I hate these cases. There are definitely situations where the chick is hosing the dude(s) and there are definitely cases where the dudes totally screw-up but the chicks are scared into saying anything for fear or reprisal.
What's going on in this case? Who knows.
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Yeah alot of people on campus seem to be indicating a certain girl. I have no clue who she is but one of my friends seems to know exactly who it is. If she made this so public before now and then went to Police then kids may know it is and be looking at her in a negative way. Very poor handling by the girl and other students that she probably told out of confidence at first
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well alcohol would only be involved if these kids were 21 right? yeah right...i believe some form of harassment occurred, most likely verbal in nature that got pretty close to physical, but nothing really to push the allegation, the next day as these girls reveiwed what they could remember of the night before, the harassment episode took on a life of it's own and some girls probably goaded the victim in to making more of the situation. victim gets a lot of mixed signals and legal ping pong going on becomes a little more than she bargained for. now it's sink or swim. i don't think she wants 15 more minutes of fame. she has already done some damage and will probably have to cover her a$$. if it wasn't physical, and was verbal only, my God what have we become. as soon as she realised that these basketball players don't really have any money(don't start) and the univ. will fight this tooth and nail, is it really worth dragging out all the people for a "beer summit" type mediation? alcohol, holloween weekend, boys and girls=sexual tension. for you deer hunters out there, the girls were in rut and the guys were marking their territory and doing head-butts
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Yeah alot of people on campus seem to be indicating a certain girl. I have no clue who she is but one of my friends seems to know exactly who it is. If she made this so public before now and then went to Police then kids may know it is and be looking at her in a negative way. Very poor handling by the girl and other students that she probably told out of confidence at first
I hesitate to say something like this until we know more. I understand your sentiment, but if this does turn out to be something as serious as sexual assault, then I can't imagine how hard of a situation this is for the girl, and I hate to call it "poor handling" given that. I mean, look how much public attention this is getting in a matter that, to her, at its core, is very private. Basically, I think its easy for us to say, "she should have done x" now, when after this happened, whatever this is, she was probably an embarrassed, scared 18-21 year old who certainly didn't want to draw a lot of attention on what happened.
Clearly, I have no clue what actually happened, I'm just saying that the above is a plausible scenario here and I don't think we should start criticizing the girl for taking some time to bring this to light before we know what "this" is.
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WMLW news just reported, the alleged victim is thinking about dropping the case after threats are made towards her.
Pretty sure threatening/intimidating a victim/witness is a crime in Wisconsin.
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I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to get across ... or probably I didn't write it clearly enough. I'm not suggesting that the fact she didn't take it to cops instead of or before public safety is going to raise questions, but the fact she didn't take it to cops at all.
Believe me, from experience I can tell you any prosecutor is going to look twice - and then a few more times - at an adult's sex assault accusation that's been left unreported to law enforcement authorities for six months. Maybe that's not fair, but it is reality.
Didn't take Crim 001, but I'd venture to guess my knowledge of and professional experience related to the criminal justice system is greater than a very large majority around here.
"Prosecutor" is the key word there. They have free reign in charging or not charging someone. Ultimately, for the criminal case, whether the victim wants to "press charges" is utterly irrelevant, unlike most legal pop culture would have you believe. That probably plays a factor in any D.A's decision to charge, but he can charge, or fail to charge at his will. If he places a strong weight on failure to report for a while, then it can end there, if they don't think its a large factor, then it wont stop a case from proceeding.
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well alcohol would only be involved if these kids were 21 right? yeah right...i believe some form of harassment occurred, most likely verbal in nature that got pretty close to physical, but nothing really to push the allegation, the next day as these girls reveiwed what they could remember of the night before, the harassment episode took on a life of it's own and some girls probably goaded the victim in to making more of the situation. victim gets a lot of mixed signals and legal ping pong going on becomes a little more than she bargained for. now it's sink or swim. i don't think she wants 15 more minutes of fame. she has already done some damage and will probably have to cover her a$$. if it wasn't physical, and was verbal only, my God what have we become. as soon as she realised that these basketball players don't really have any money(don't start) and the univ. will fight this tooth and nail, is it really worth dragging out all the people for a "beer summit" type mediation? alcohol, holloween weekend, boys and girls=sexual tension. for you deer hunters out there, the girls were in rut and the guys were marking their territory and doing head-butts
My understanding was that DPS was called the night it occurred, so there should be no "I don't quite remember what happened" aspect to this. Thats why, right now, I'm leaning toward something that was blown out of proportion because the university had every opportunity to do the right things and has shown no history of not doing the right thing.
Having said that, if there is something to these allegations that is more than inappropriate verbal statements, and the university didn't follow through in the best interests of the victim and university this is a SIGNIFICANT issue to me. If they tried to sweep it under the rug at all it would be the dumbest thing, because in this day and age there is just no way you are going to get away with it.
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well alcohol would only be involved if these kids were 21 right? yeah right...i believe some form of harassment occurred, most likely verbal in nature that got pretty close to physical, but nothing really to push the allegation, the next day as these girls reveiwed what they could remember of the night before, the harassment episode took on a life of it's own and some girls probably goaded the victim in to making more of the situation. victim gets a lot of mixed signals and legal ping pong going on becomes a little more than she bargained for. now it's sink or swim. i don't think she wants 15 more minutes of fame. she has already done some damage and will probably have to cover her a$$. if it wasn't physical, and was verbal only, my God what have we become. as soon as she realised that these basketball players don't really have any money(don't start) and the univ. will fight this tooth and nail, is it really worth dragging out all the people for a "beer summit" type mediation? alcohol, holloween weekend, boys and girls=sexual tension. for you deer hunters out there, the girls were in rut and the guys were marking their territory and doing head-butts
Why don't you just make up some player names while you are at it? You've managed to make up everything else about this.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
To write the female student off as some loon looking for 15min of fame is insensitive, and quite frankly, the dumbest thing I've read on here in a while.
On the other side of the coin, to write the players off as thugs is inaccurate and unfair.
Let's see the facts before we start to just make them up.
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well alcohol would only be involved if these kids were 21 right? yeah right...i believe some form of harassment occurred, most likely verbal in nature that got pretty close to physical, but nothing really to push the allegation, the next day as these girls reveiwed what they could remember of the night before, the harassment episode took on a life of it's own and some girls probably goaded the victim in to making more of the situation. victim gets a lot of mixed signals and legal ping pong going on becomes a little more than she bargained for. now it's sink or swim. i don't think she wants 15 more minutes of fame. she has already done some damage and will probably have to cover her a$$. if it wasn't physical, and was verbal only, my God what have we become. as soon as she realised that these basketball players don't really have any money(don't start) and the univ. will fight this tooth and nail, is it really worth dragging out all the people for a "beer summit" type mediation? alcohol, holloween weekend, boys and girls=sexual tension. for you deer hunters out there, the girls were in rut and the guys were marking their territory and doing head-butts
Well hell, MPD might as well drop the charges now. You've got it all figured out.
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The Office of Student Development handled the conduct cases when I worked there (last year was '05). When someone had a conduct hearing, you could go in and view your conduct report. It drove people crazy because the rules were, you couldn't photocopy anything, but you could sit there and copy it word for word by writing it down. Only people who were on the conduct report could view it. No public record of any kind. I'm confident that the deans that worked in this office wouldn't have stood by and let something this serious slide, "just because it's the basketball team." No way. Things may have changed since I worked there.
According to their web-site, all of these hearings are audio recorded now.
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Pretty sure the identity of the girl and the guys are pretty widely known on campus. A current student I know said there was a lot of talk in the Fall that that allegations were made against a particular player.
Even if this blows over somehow, clearly something occurred (sexual harrassment finding), and I sure hope Buzz dealt with it at the time. I suspect and hope that he did. Buzz makes no bones about putting himself and the team out there as high character guys etc...even if this is blown out of proportion, it sounds like there was something to address, and I really hope he did. It would be against everything he espouses not to. I'm a big fan of Buzz, and would hate if this wasn't handled right. With the rumors of his new deal, clearly the administration must feel it was handled properly.
What a dark cloud over the fun way the season ended.
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Why don't you just make up some player names while you are at it? You've managed to make up everything else about this.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
To write the female student off as some loon looking for 15min of fame is insensitive, and quite frankly, the dumbest thing I've read on here in a while.
On the other side of the coin, to write the players off as thugs is inaccurate and unfair.
Let's see the facts before we start to just make them up.
That is pretty dumb. Maybe not the dumbest in a while, but certainly right up there.
What would be just as dumb is chasing down a college basketball team - this year's Marquette one, at that - thinking you're going to get 15 minutes of fame. I can imagine there are some wacky-brained people in college these days, but at Marquette? We do have minimum standards on admissions, right? To be this dumb, we're talking tOSU-type intelligence (or lack thereof) there. Then again, chasing down tOSU basketball team looking for 15 minutes would be the smart thing to do.
Houston, we have a conundrum.
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I'm a big fan of Buzz, and would hate if this wasn't handled right. With the rumors of his new deal, clearly the administration must feel it was handled properly.
You've summed up my feeling nicely. If there is something to this, and it is/was handled a la Steve Alford, I will want Buzz, as well as Cottingham gone immediately. If there is not much to it/its an overreaction/blown out of proportion/something intentional by the alleged victim, etc. (according to my own assessment, if when we find anything out), and it has been dealt with, I'm good.
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So to sum up... no one really knows what took place. The only sexual assault on record involving MU was the 5 on 5 one in Newark last Friday. As of now, North Carolina has not been charged.
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So to sum up... no one really knows what took place. The only sexual assault on record involving MU was the 5 on 5 one in Newark last Friday. As of now, North Carolina has not been charged.
But in about 5 months look for Buzz to file a report with the Newark police... :P
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So to sum up... no one really knows what took place. The only sexual assault on record involving MU was the 5 on 5 one in Newark last Friday. As of now, North Carolina has not been charged.
More like 5 on 2... but that's besides the point.
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It will probably be DJO filing that repor. He was "violated" by Carolina blue in a big way.
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plenty of witnesses
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as a student I will say that probably every student has heard a version of the story by now and one name is universally known. The rest is pretty vague other than where it happened. I don't know if I should say any more that I've heard because I only really got it from student hearsay
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I don't know if I should say any more that I've heard because I only really got it from student hearsay
You have shown excellent decision making skills so far...
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I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to get across ... or probably I didn't write it clearly enough. I'm not suggesting that the fact she didn't take it to cops instead of or before public safety is going to raise questions, but the fact she didn't take it to cops at all.
No I understood you. And that (true or false) is ridiculous if you are dealing with a MU student. They are surrounded by authority figures who would have made that call for her. And that call would be to public safety not the police. So the idea that it would be a sign of her innocence or guilt is out of line.
If I beat up a girl in a hotel and she runs to the front desk who calls hotel security, no one would say 'why didn't she go to the police first.'
That said, I didn't read all 11 pages of this. I just hate the idea that we are expecting a victim to think "how will me, going to public safety, play 14 months down the line when we are going to trial."
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It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already. Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game
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No I understood you. And that (true or false) is ridiculous if you are dealing with a MU student. They are surrounded by authority figures who would have made that call for her. And that call would be to public safety not the police. So the idea that it would be a sign of her innocence or guilt is out of line.
If I beat up a girl in a hotel and she runs to the front desk who calls hotel security, no one would say 'why didn't she go to the police first.'
That said, I didn't read all 11 pages of this. I just hate the idea that we are expecting a victim to think "how will me, going to public safety, play 14 months down the line when we are going to trial."
You may hate it all you like, but it doesn't change the reality that a prosecutor (and certainly a defense attorney) is going to raise an eyebrow - with good reason - upon learning that a woman waited six months to report this to police. Brsides the fact that it eliminates any chance for physical evidence, it brings up legitimate questions of credibility and motivation. I say that without passing judgement on her honesty or dishonesty, just stating the reality of how a prosecutor who'll need to decide if he/she can prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt is going to view it.
To use your hotel example, nobody is going to say "why didn't she call police first." But if hotel security informs her of how to contact police, repeatedly tells her that contacting police is an option, and then she waits six months to call police and say you beat her up, the timing is going to be questioned.
Honestly, I'm not sure how anybody finds this remotely questionable or controversial. It would be exceptionally naive to think the six-month delay isn't a big issue in the investigation, and certainly in any prosecution.
Again, it's not the matter of her going to public safety first. It's a matter of her not going to police for six months.
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It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already. Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game
I hadn't gotten the feeling that many were already seeing the players as guilty. But that's just what I've been reading, I'm not there, so I dont really know what the general feeling on campus is. I find it hard to believe that so many of the students would already be judging people as guilty...
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I hadn't gotten the feeling that many were already seeing the players as guilty. But that's just what I've been reading, I'm not there, so I dont really know what the general feeling on campus is. I find it hard to believe that so many of the students would already be judging people as guilty...
I get the feeling that quite a few people on campus are judging them as guilty. Even if they are completely exonerated of guilt down the line through a trial, their reputations will still be tarnished, and many people will still feel that there should have been consequences for them (such as being kicked off the team) regardless of the outcome.
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I get the feeling that quite a few people on campus are judging them as guilty. Even if they are completely exonerated of guilt down the line through a trial, their reputations will still be tarnished, and many people will still feel that there should have been consequences for them (such as being kicked off the team) regardless of the outcome.
I hope that's not true. I'd be more than a little disappointed in the students if they not only jumped to the conclusion that they are guilty, but if they want consequences even if they are found to have done nothing wrong.
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I hope that's not true. I'd be more than a little disappointed in the students if they not only jumped to the conclusion that they are guilty, but if they want consequences even if they are found to have done nothing wrong.
I could never imagine college students jumping to conclusions before facts come out ::)
You do realize these are athletes we are still talking about right? Any time athletes are involved, a lot of people will automatically assume preferential treatment regardless of the facts of the case...and unfortunately, that judgement will follow them around for many years.
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It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already. Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game
If we are talking Dez Bryant in the company of friends who wear their pants too low, the benefit of doubt is given... maybe.
Its the nature of the offense here that has many jumping to guilt. Having defended sexual harrassment cases, one of the greatest difficulties is even when you think you can prove a false accusation, or have inconsistencies which indicate one is not truthful... it is still very difficult.....because the man/woman encounter is private--with no other witnesses, and it ends up a swearing match.
Maybe there was a day when the woman accuser bore the burden of proof. In sexual harrassment cases now, a defendant is simply foolish not to realize that ALL doubts are likely resolved by any jury in favor of the accuser, and against the defendant/s. When it is he said she said, no lawyering is going to control any outcome---the defendant MUST settle, or risk high stakes, and very possible loss.
Today's social contract (for Burke fans--lol), is when a sexual harrassment case depends ultimately on he said she said the female accuser is accorded almost all doubts in her favor, and a juror is politically incorrect, in its peer dynamic to act otherwise. Curiously, Women are more likely to doubt a female accuser, than are men. We ask jurors to swear to impartiality, but we would not have jury consultants if , in fact there were not scientific, and psycological predispositions, among us all.
To defend anyone on sexual harrassment, is to recognize the scales tip to the accuser---fact of life.
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Again, it's not the matter of her going to public safety first. It's a matter of her not going to police for six months.
Well that isn't what you said is it?
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I hope that's not true. I'd be more than a little disappointed in the students if they not only jumped to the conclusion that they are guilty, but if they want consequences even if they are found to have done nothing wrong.
I also feel, based on who I've talked to regarding this, that more of the girls are finding these players guilty than guys are. Most guys are taking a wait and see position, and want to see the legal process go through before passing judgement. I have a friend who lives in Humphrey, and she feels unsafe living there now. It's unfortunate that people are jumping to conclusions so quickly, but as houwarrior said, the assumption of guilt tends to be already there for the accused in society today.
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Latest clips
http://www.wisn.com/r/27363410/detail.html
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Well that isn't what you said is it?
Actually, it is.
I admit the first post to which you responded wasn't terribly clear or well written, so I clarified last night by saying ...
"I'm not suggesting that the fact she didn't take it to cops instead of or before public safety is going to raise questions, but the fact she didn't take it to cops at all."
Pretty much the same thing I said today.
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Latest clips
http://www.wisn.com/r/27363410/detail.html
Thank goodness we have the responsible TV news outlets to give us uninformed comments from random students.
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Pakuni - based on what I have read, the victim was allowing the school to handle the matter. After the school did not take action (in her eyes by finding them not in violation of the sexual assault), she went to the police. My only question is when did the school's investigation come to completion, just now?
How serious is the penalty for violating the Harassment Code? Given what we know about Buzz, I would have thought he would have instituted some type of penalty to send a message to the team.
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Actually, it is.
I admit the first post to which you responded wasn't terribly clear or well written, so I clarified last night by saying ...
"I'm not suggesting that the fact she didn't take it to cops instead of or before public safety is going to raise questions, but the fact she didn't take it to cops at all."
Pretty much the same thing I said today.
Yes, I understand that it would be a easier to try cases if women wandered directly into police stations, battered and bloody, with DNA evidence dripping down their legs.
Neither of your first two statements mentioned 6 months. The time is a reasonable thing to play into a trial both for motivation and evidence. But I didn't see the post that said she waited 6 months. I thought she reported it and it had been under investigation.
The point i was responding to was your comment that the order of which uniformed, law enforcement, agency it was reported to first would play a major role in the mind of a jury.
Not speaking to this case particularly. It shouldn't matter because most girls who report assaults on campus do so to public safety. The reason that happens is, as stated earlier, they are not the ones making the call, it is often the front desk and the RA's. Those people are trained to go to public safety first. So (in general) why would that be held against the victim?
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If we are talking Dez Bryant in the company of friends who wear their pants too low, the benefit of doubt is given... maybe.
Its the nature of the offense here that has many jumping to guilt. Having defended sexual harrassment cases, one of the greatest difficulties is even when you think you can prove a false accusation, or have inconsistencies which indicate one is not truthful... it is still very difficult.....because the man/woman encounter is private--with no other witnesses, and it ends up a swearing match.
Maybe there was a day when the woman accuser bore the burden of proof. In sexual harrassment cases now, a defendant is simply foolish not to realize that ALL doubts are likely resolved by any jury in favor of the accuser, and against the defendant/s. When it is he said she said, no lawyering is going to control any outcome---the defendant MUST settle, or risk high stakes, and very possible loss.
Today's social contract (for Burke fans--lol), is when a sexual harrassment case depends ultimately on he said she said the female accuser is accorded almost all doubts in her favor, and a juror is politically incorrect, in its peer dynamic to act otherwise. Curiously, Women are more likely to doubt a female accuser, than are men. We ask jurors to swear to impartiality, but we would not have jury consultants if , in fact there were not scientific, and psycological predispositions, among us all.
To defend anyone on sexual harrassment, is to recognize the scales tip to the accuser---fact of life.
In the "bad old days" real victims of sexual harrassment often had their complaints trivialized and were understandably reticent to move forward. In the "bad new days" the accused is deemed guilty even when found innocent.
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so saying 'nice ass' as you pass a girl at a party is out nowadays?
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so saying 'nice ass' as you pass a girl at a party is out nowadays?
At a University event, you could be charged with sexual harassment by the Student Conduct board.
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I also feel, based on who I've talked to regarding this, that more of the girls are finding these players guilty than guys are. Most guys are taking a wait and see position, and want to see the legal process go through before passing judgement. I have a friend who lives in Humphrey, and she feels unsafe living there now. It's unfortunate that people are jumping to conclusions so quickly, but as houwarrior said, the assumption of guilt tends to be already there for the accused in society today.
She feels unsafe now or has felt unsafe the past 5+ months that she's lived there?
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At a University event, you could be charged with sexual harassment by the Student Conduct board.
sad state of the nation
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It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already. Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game
Agreed on the first point "It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already"...
But seriously on this next point!? "Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game" You do realize the students go to college for the education and NOT the basketball team, right?
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I also feel, based on who I've talked to regarding this, that more of the girls are finding these players guilty than guys are. Most guys are taking a wait and see position, and want to see the legal process go through before passing judgement. I have a friend who lives in Humphrey, and she feels unsafe living there now. It's unfortunate that people are jumping to conclusions so quickly, but as houwarrior said, the assumption of guilt tends to be already there for the accused in society today.
The girls I have talked to don't doubt something happened, but sadly, there is also a sense of, why would you go to Humphrey to hang with the hoops guys if you weren't expecting something to happen? I DON'T mean assault, but hooking up. Apparently the guys have a pretty lousy reputation on campus, such that the girls I talked to said there's no way they would go there. I'm sure this is not unique to MU by any chance, but still disappointing to hear. That said, being big-time players is a different thing than commiting a crime, but obviously the line can be blurry and the guys involved got themselves in a situation that is blowing up on them.
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Neither of your first two statements mentioned 6 months. The time is a reasonable thing to play into a trial both for motivation and evidence. But I didn't see the post that said she waited 6 months. I thought she reported it and it had been under investigation.
Yes, my second post did mention six months. I guess in my first post I mistakenly assumed people were aware of the timeline.
The point i was responding to was your comment that the order of which uniformed, law enforcement, agency it was reported to first would play a major role in the mind of a jury.
And, as I've clarified thrice now, I didn't mean to address the chronological order of when public safety vs. police were informed, but that police weren't informed at all... at least not for six months ... despite the woman knowing that was an option.
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Any chance this caused a player to leave?
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Agreed on the first point "It is amazing how many students are ready to put the players down as guilty already"...
But seriously on this next point!? "Probably the same kids that complain that we should spend less on the basketball program, and opt to study for a test worth 5 percent of their grade over going to a basketball game" You do realize the students go to college for the education and NOT the basketball team, right?
Yeah man, but you notice how I put that 5% to stress how little it would effect them...I wasn't saying oh hey I got a huge exam tomorrow screw it I am going to a Basketball game. I would do that even tho it would kill me and I would be following the game the whole time. I am talking about the kids with a little quiz about a reading that don't go to a huge game...but alright you can argue. This is a basketball board tho not an education board
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The girls I have talked to don't doubt something happened, but sadly, there is also a sense of, why would you go to Humphrey to hang with the hoops guys if you weren't expecting something to happen? I DON'T mean assault, but hooking up. Apparently the guys have a pretty lousy reputation on campus, such that the girls I talked to said there's no way they would go there. I'm sure this is not unique to MU by any chance, but still disappointing to hear. That said, being big-time players is a different thing than commiting a crime, but obviously the line can be blurry and the guys involved got themselves in a situation that is blowing up on them.
Typical.
As I noted, ..."Curiously, Women are more likely to doubt a female accuser, than are men. ..."
It seems counterintuitive, but women are generally better defense jurors, and more disposed to asking questions of doubting the woman accuser's facts, or circumstances. They recognize the possibility of putting herself in a risky position, by actions, circumstances, or dress. If there is corroborating evidence of the female's resistance..or saying "no", however, they will quickly stiffen for the plaintiff. Defendants can raise doubts, with female jurors, but must carefully never attack the accuser's veracity, lest they trigger the stiffening instinct.
Men are empathetic to the posibility of false accusation of a male defendant, but almost never suspect, or never fill in any evidence gaps to support such a scenario, as men consider such as unjust to the female accuser, to whom they are conditioned, and predisposed to secure and to protect.
BTW, too many men fail to recognize, that a quality FEMALE defense atty is better positioned, than a male atty, to work a jury on accuser doubt points/narrative, than a male attorney, yet few female attorneys recruit this work--I'm not sure why..
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How serious is the penalty for violating the Harassment Code? Given what we know about Buzz, I would have thought he would have instituted some type of penalty to send a message to the team.
It's not unusual for athletes who commit minor violations (relatively speaking) to have an early morning "meeting" with the strength and conditioning coach in order to get a message across.
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(http://www.popchopshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pepe-le-pew-rapist.jpg)
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It's not unusual for athletes who commit minor violations (relatively speaking) to have an early morning "meeting" with the strength and conditioning coach in order to get a message across.
They had 5 or 6 AM practices for a week right around the time of the incident.
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They had 5 or 6 AM practices for a week right around the time of the incident.
That's cute and all, but I hope this wasn't a situation where they just let Buzz take care of the punishment.
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That's cute and all, but I hope this wasn't a situation where they just let Buzz take care of the punishment.
Punishment for what?
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Punishment for what?
+1
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Punishment for what?
Putting themselves in a situation where sexual assault can even be misconstrued.
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Punishment for what?
Weren't they found guilty, or whatever the proper terminology may be, of sexual harassment? If true, that deserves some punishment.
I think it's a safe assumption that the punishment was handed down through the university disciplinary process and that anything Buzz did or didn't do was supplementary to that.
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Putting themselves in a situation where sexual assault can even be misconstrued.
Amen. They should know better than to go to a party on a college campus.
In other news...
MILWAUKEE (AP) - Sources close to the situation report that Buzz's contract requires Marquette to end its Jesuit affiliation effective today. Beginning April 1, Marquette will begin an affiliation with the Latter Day Saints. The proposed name change from Marquette to BYU-Wisconsin has set off a firestorm amongst students and alumni. However, when it was pointed out that the mascot would return to "Warriors," the masses became supportive and broke into cheers.
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Weren't they found guilty, or whatever the proper terminology may be, of sexual harassment? If true, that deserves some punishment.
I think it's a safe assumption that the punishment was handed down through the university disciplinary process and that anything Buzz did or didn't do was supplementary to that.
Agreed. Just because they were not suspended, does not mean that they weren't punished or their only punishment was Buzz making them get up early (not saying I know this was a punishment, but it was used as an example earlier). I have heard from someone that some of the punishments that the Disciplinary committee hands out are along the lines of writing a paper or some sort of community service or maybe a type of class. This wasn't anything like sexual harassment, but it seemed like those were the types of punishments handed out for the Student review board. Also, they may be put on some sort of probation as well. Just saying that just because it wasn't made public doesn't mean that they got off easy or the review board made things different for the basketball players.
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Agreed. Just because they were not suspended, does not mean that they weren't punished or their only punishment was Buzz making them get up early (not saying I know this was a punishment, but it was used as an example earlier). I have heard from someone that some of the punishments that the Disciplinary committee hands out are along the lines of writing a paper or some sort of community service or maybe a type of class. This wasn't anything like sexual harassment, but it seemed like those were the types of punishments handed out for the Student review board. Also, they may be put on some sort of probation as well. Just saying that just because it wasn't made public doesn't mean that they got off easy or the review board made things different for the basketball players.
or they have to write "I will not tell a girl she has a nice ass" 100 times.
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Some people are turning this into a joke, and its really not appropriate at this time. What will you be thinking if you see one of the star players being kicked out of the school for something that happened? If this occurs we would know that something very inappropriate went down.
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I am confuesed by the whole thing and don't have a clue what happened, didn't happen or even what is alledged to maybe have happened. However, if there was no touching at least alledged, MPD would not be investigating it, and they would not be investigating a sexual assualt. So there must be some allegation of touching at a minimum.
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Whether this blows over quickly, which I believe, or not, it is not a joke. Nobody would want their daughter in a tough position. This is not like Duke case when the girls were of somewhat shady backgrounds. I feel for the girl a great deal. That said, I hope the guys did not do something stupid.
To me, regardless of outcome I wish this never happened. I tell my boys all the time they are one stupid decision from having major problem. In today's world guys have to think three times before they act.
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Typical.
As I noted, ..."Curiously, Women are more likely to doubt a female accuser, than are men. ..."
That's my wife to a tee....she immediately had doubts about the girl in terms of her immediate thoughts. Doesn't mean she tried and convicted her, but her brain immediately wondered what she was up to not so much the guys.
I can't figure women out, stopped trying years ago.
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Amen. They should know better than to go to a party on a college campus.
I know you were trying to be sarcastic, but actually there is a lot of truth to this. When I was in the department, we had two sessions per year with the athletes going over the risks associated with their celebrity. Like it or not, they are celebs on campus and have to be ever mindful of that. We never said you can't go to a party, but we counseled strongly on the ramifications of attending parties, going to the bars, etc, etc. They become targets. They have to be careful. People may not want to hear that, specifically the athletes, but that is the reality of the world.
When I was there, that was before smart phone cameras, etc. Today they would have to be even more careful. That's the tradeoff that some aren't willing to make.
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I can't figure women out, stopped trying years ago.
I can actually agree with you on that one. Maybe your most accurate post.
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As my daddy told me when I was a young man, "Son, women don't think like you think. Women don't think like you think they are going to think. And if you think you know what a woman is thinking, think again." To my sister, his advice was, "Sweetheart, boys lie."
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Some people are turning this into a joke, and its really not appropriate at this time. What will you be thinking if you see one of the star players being kicked out of the school for something that happened? If this occurs we would know that something very inappropriate went down.
Id rather have it as a joke than focus on the status of the basketball team when a girl might have been raped
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That's my wife to a tee....she immediately had doubts about the girl in terms of her immediate thoughts. Doesn't mean she tried and convicted her, but her brain immediately wondered what she was up to not so much the guys.
I can't figure women out, stopped trying years ago.
My wife had the same reaction, and a pretty cogent reasoning.... Any woman making a false or inflated accusation, in her view, is just making it that much harder for the next one, who has a real claim to enforce her rights.
She said, ..."any woman crying Wolf, makes it harder for us to cry Pig, when y'all are actually being one.."
Wise woman--- I duly fear her...the secret to a 27 year marriage. lol
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As my daddy told me when I was a young man, "Son, women don't think like you think. Women don't think like you think they are going to think. And if you think you know what a woman is thinking, think again." To my sister, his advice was, "Sweetheart, boys lie."
You have a good dad.
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She feels unsafe now or has felt unsafe the past 5+ months that she's lived there?
unsafe from what? see, this is where there has been so much ambiguity. was it sexual assault or harassment? most comments on this board seem to lean harassment. o.k. then, unsafe from someone continuing to say something inappropriate(i.e. nice ass) or the repercussions of going public with the accusations? there are also ways to mediate these things if we(as a society) weren't so damn litigious
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unsafe from what? see, this is where there has been so much ambiguity. was it sexual assault or harassment? most comments on this board seem to lean harassment. o.k. then, unsafe from someone continuing to say something inappropriate(i.e. nice ass) or the repercussions of going public with the accusations? there are also ways to mediate these things if we(as a society) weren't so damn litigious
I would assume unsafe from some moron in class or on a Friday night that wants to scream at her or whatever. I could understand her feeling uncomfortable.
This is what is so tricky about this stuff. She obviously feels something happened and I'm not going to disparage her for feeling that way. I don't like that she waited months for this to go to the MPD, on the other hand the university had it from the very beginning, so it's not like she hadn't reported it. She went down a path to the authorities. Was it the right path? Was it the right authorities? Who knows.
Now its out in public and she's probably concerned about getting those looks in class, those snide remarks from other students, or something worse, etc.
I don't want to pretend to be in her shoes or those of the 4 young men involved. Sucks for everyone.
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I understand what you are saying Chicos and I agree, but I think the original post about girls feeling uncomfortable was from a poster's friend's daughter and not the accuser. Although I could definitely see where the accuser is uncomfortable.
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HouWarrior--How would your wife any idea what the girl experienced? I hope you meant to put your fear of your wife in teal....otherwise I'm speechless.
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HouWarrior--How would your wife any idea what the girl experienced? I hope you meant to put your fear of your wife in teal....otherwise I'm speechless.
I'll hold you to your speechless promise--lol.
As I alluded, I have tried a few sex harrassment cases, including one with a totally false accuser(admitted by her on the witness stand)......which is the situation that spurred my wife's Wolf/Pig quote...not this case..
On this matter,on the facts to this point, and on the reports, I honestly do suspect the delay, claim history and timing point to an attorney leveraging for her civil claims through the press, and the tardy criminal referral request. Broad press can both leverage a claim, and taint a jury pool. Our system affords either state pursued criminal pursuit of the actors, when there is a crime, or money to the victim; or both. Not money,here, from the athletes, but rather from the deeper pocketed institution, MU, on its investigatory/response failures. This is just as an employer is usually not liable for the occurence of harrasment, but is, instead sued for its training failures, or its investigation/disciplinary response(all employer liability grounds, accepted by a key US Sup Ct Decision).. As deep throat said....follow the money, as this unfolds in coming months. I hope my gut is dead wrong, for everyone's sake.
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i know i know, the facts aren't out yet, but i'm just speculating here. i'm wondering if some comments were exchanged, they were received the way they were intended, someone was insulted, more comments exchanged and it got more personal leading each to protect each others dignity and b/c it happenned in a crowd, prides were probably hurt and it became an i'll get you you mofor'er. the girl(s) continue on throughout the night dwelling on the incident then wake up the next a.m. continue to talk about the isssue, growing madder by the minute, they call public saftey and you know the rest of the story. now it's like, wow, did we really have to take this to this leve??
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i know i know, the facts aren't out yet, but i'm just speculating here.
That should be your cue to stop typing.
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unsafe from what? see, this is where there has been so much ambiguity. was it sexual assault or harassment? most comments on this board seem to lean harassment. o.k. then, unsafe from someone continuing to say something inappropriate(i.e. nice ass) or the repercussions of going public with the accusations? there are also ways to mediate these things if we(as a society) weren't so damn litigious
I have no idea. I was asking a question in response to this:
I also feel, based on who I've talked to regarding this, that more of the girls are finding these players guilty than guys are. Most guys are taking a wait and see position, and want to see the legal process go through before passing judgement. I have a friend who lives in Humphrey, and she feels unsafe living there now. It's unfortunate that people are jumping to conclusions so quickly, but as houwarrior said, the assumption of guilt tends to be already there for the accused in society today.
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i know i know, the facts aren't out yet, but i'm just speculating here. i'm wondering if some comments were exchanged, they were received the way they were intended, someone was insulted, more comments exchanged and it got more personal leading each to protect each others dignity and b/c it happenned in a crowd, prides were probably hurt and it became an i'll get you you mofor'er. the girl(s) continue on throughout the night dwelling on the incident then wake up the next a.m. continue to talk about the isssue, growing madder by the minute, they call public saftey and you know the rest of the story. now it's like, wow, did we really have to take this to this leve??
I'm *not* speculating here. You keep talking out yer ass about something you know nothing about.
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i know i know, the facts aren't out yet, but i'm just speculating here. i'm wondering if some comments were exchanged, they were received the way they were intended, someone was insulted, more comments exchanged and it got more personal leading each to protect each others dignity and b/c it happenned in a crowd, prides were probably hurt and it became an i'll get you you mofor'er. the girl(s) continue on throughout the night dwelling on the incident then wake up the next a.m. continue to talk about the isssue, growing madder by the minute, they call public saftey and you know the rest of the story. now it's like, wow, did we really have to take this to this leve??
The girl contacted public safety at 2:30am. She didn't sleep on it, let it simmer and then blow it out of proportion in her mind the next day.
Who knows? Maybe she's an angry, emotional drunk who was looking for attention, got it and then blew it out of proportion. Maybe she's an innocent girl who was harassed to the point where she felt unsafe. Maybe it's somewhere in between. WE DON'T KNOW so stop making up stories.
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This thread is likened to a circle jerk. A bunch of speculation, vague innuendoes, and no facts. Don't even know who is being speculated about: BB players-men or womens, soccer players ar pep band members. What we need here is for Mike Tyson to get in the middle of this crowd and clean out the BS. Tyson sure as hell knows what sexual harassment, sexual abuse and rape is all about.
I guess everybody can have an opinion, but why speculate about this. Who is involved and what are the facts---otherwise get out of the circle jerk!!!!!
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Willie, I agree with you except they *are* basketball players. And a number of people know *who* specifically they are, but aren't going to say so because it would be unfair to post as such in a public forum. My understanding is that most of the students know who these players are too.
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Houwarrior, if it is a lawsuit against MU not properly handling things do you think she has a good case?
I realize all of the facts aren't out yet, but it looks like MU followed all of it's policies and processes that it has established for these situations. In addition, the girl was told her right to bring the case to the MPD. I guess I just don't get what her case would be against MU.
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I have no idea. I was asking a question in response to this:
Quote from: Shanunu on March 30, 2011, 12:33:29 PM
I also feel, based on who I've talked to regarding this, that more of the girls are finding these players guilty than guys are. Most guys are taking a wait and see position, and want to see the legal process go through before passing judgement. I have a friend who lives in Humphrey, and she feels unsafe living there now. It's unfortunate that people are jumping to conclusions so quickly, but as houwarrior said, the assumption of guilt tends to be already there for the accused in society today.
Essentially, she's always been a little creeped out by a few of the players, but never had any real problems. But now that rumors and such are coming out, many of which are probably untrue, she worries about letting her guard down whenever she's in her building. It just sucks that girls have to feel that way in their own apartment building, especially one university owned. I'm not condemning the players as guilty, but reality is that people will feel more apprehensive to be around them after all that's floating around out there.
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I'm *not* speculating here. You keep talking out yer ass about something you know nothing about.
That should be your cue to stop typing.
who made you guys the queens of the message boards?? this is a venue to exchange thoughts-if you geeks don't like mine, put me on ignore
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Id rather have it as a joke than focus on the status of the basketball team when a girl might have been raped
Who's claiming rape? Rape and sexual assault are two entirely different crimes. If you don't understand the difference, I'm sure Wikipedia can provide a primer.
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This thread is likened to a circle jerk. A bunch of speculation, vague innuendoes, and no facts. Don't even know who is being speculated about: BB players-men or womens, soccer players ar pep band members . . . . I guess everybody can have an opinion, but why speculate about this. Who is involved and what are the facts---otherwise get out of the circle jerk!!!!!
Reminds me of one of my favorite Daily Show clips of all time: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-november-10-2003/prince-charles-scandal (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-november-10-2003/prince-charles-scandal)
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That should be your cue to stop typing.
who made you guys the queens of the message boards?? this is a venue to exchange thoughts-if you geeks don't like mine, put me on ignore
Yep, the problem clearly lies in everyone else. ?-(
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Willie, I agree with you except they *are* basketball players. And a number of people know *who* specifically they are, but aren't going to say so because it would be unfair to post as such in a public forum. My understanding is that most of the students know who these players are too.
Yes, so instead we get 300 plus posts, many speculating what is going on, that it was members of the BB team, so the whole team gets tarred and feathered--at least tainted. I'm beginning to wish we would land a huge recruit to get people on a different kick. I will be ignoring these dumb innuendoes.
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That should be your cue to stop typing.
That should be your cue to stop typing.
BURN ::)
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Houwarrior, if it is a lawsuit against MU not properly handling things do you think she has a good case?
I realize all of the facts aren't out yet, but it looks like MU followed all of it's policies and processes that it has established for these situations. In addition, the girl was told her right to bring the case to the MPD. I guess I just don't get what her case would be against MU.
I agree-- its appears MU was quick to press release each and every of its investigative steps the night of the incident,which seemed to follow policy. There is a little more mystery, as to the steps in the disciplinary hearing, but only because they are by policy/maybe law to be kept confidential. What is odd is the victim claiming favored treatment, when there apparently was a "guilt" finding of violating campus no sexual harrassment policy---Could she reasonably expect them to find criminal assault,without any medical referral/scene biology, and without the victim pursuing a MPD report option? MU lacks jurisdiction over crimes.
We dont know the punishment--maybe that was "favorable".
For now it seems there is no publicly known problematic evidence of MU liability/exposure, so far. Of course your case is in the best shape when you first meet and hear only your clients side of the facts....and it only goes downhill after that. lol
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Thanks, houwarrior.
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April Fool's Day strikes again.
Also, if what I was told today about this is what actually happened, Ari's "Disney Duke Lacrosse" description was perfect. Don't think this will be much of an issue.
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The Assistant DA says that if she decides to press charges, it won't be until mid-May.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/119093059.html
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To the JD's in the house, care to make guesses on what this could mean?
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schools out
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+ 1
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schools out
Yep. I doubt the investigation or decesion lasts that wrong, but the announcement will.
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http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/119093059.html
I'm a SLU basketball fan and follow MU as well. I heard what happened to SLU last year may have happened at MU. But it is just a rumor.
It involves a train if you know what I mean. I also heard MU tried to cover it up so athletes plus school could be in big trouble. But it is all rumor right now.
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Please see one of the other various threads on this subject. And troll away.
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To the JD's in the house, care to make guesses on what this could mean?
CRIMINAL SIDE:
In general, sending back for more investigation is just that. It means, after the first rundown of facts, its...(i)Not a slam dunk conviction on its face; and (ii)its also not enough to yet to make an informed charging decision on...up or down.
It maybe needing of corroboration, lacks physical/biology evidence, missing witness interviews...anything.... who knows, exactly what is lacking---nothing is gained on speculation on what investigation holes might be.
Even when this further investigation is complete, and presented --dist attorney must still decide whether YES: there is enough there either: (i) to inform and charge a misdemeanor...or (ii)to present to a grand jury(citizens panel) for them to determine whether a felony should be indicted,..., and if NO:the criminal case is dropped/never charged.
With the press, profile, and potential for collateral damage a local DA would, here, ensure no precipitous moves to charge, or prosecute. Any Favoritism claim is very sensitive, so DA also must show its not favoring anyone--....neither victim, her atty, (or their publicity pressure), ....nor the accused, or MU. It must appear thorough, unbiased, yet suff. important/prioritized to require prompt investigation...hence the assurance of prompt, further work, and some action...up or down in just 6-8 weeks.
MU has more than a few JDs, judges and DAs....and..unlike Durham NC--Duke..NO DA will be popular in Milw.for jumping too quick to pelt the hide of MUers, (i) for personal publicity, or (ii) in overcompensation..to just show the state wont sweep under any athletes bad act; or(JOKE)... (iii) to remind the other DA's she is from UW law school and still hurting over Vander (sorry, -lol).
Like wise, if this is closed/dismissed too quickly, without charges, the DA/MPD risks the same victim/her atty will run to the press ,yet again ,to push that now MPD, and the DA, were just as favoring/suppressive as they "claimed" as to MU.
Duke is a cautionary tale here. There, the towwnie DA in Durham went fast and hard against the lacrosse players (feeding Durham's duke dislike -while running for office, only to shoot too high and miss); he ended up disbarred, and Duke was sued and settled for big civil damages to the accused. Duke case says ..No one will move too fast here...and thanks to the milw press pressure on this...no one will move too slow.
CIVIL SIDE:
The accused kids arent deep pocketed for it to make it worthwhile (for the % atty)to sue the kids personally, especially if none are charged/convicted of an assault crime. Just sexual harrassment (as found by MU)of the victim (a civil claim..not a crime) doesnt recover big jury money here, as--- (i)the jury questions the delay, assumes that she lacked immediate anguish, and ongoing emotional distress; and (ii) in the press she is portrayed as more upset with MU, not the kids. So, as her press assault is pointed to MUs improper, favorable finding of no assault, the MU case is next AND!!!!
The best thing I see here .......is for MU (the possible civil defendant)...
..which, (although not equipped like cops, nor set up to pursue crime ) did not find any assault. When the police pros now, dont find a slam dunk assault charge on their first investigation pass, it tends to validate MU as not having obviously failed in its prior work or papering over the claim,( to protect the accused), nor does it show they clearly favored the accused. Of course...If cops dig, on their second pass, and find something MU should have found but didnt...There still may have been MU negligence, but this would seem to NEGATE any claim for intentionally bad acts, or gross negligence, by MU.Why?...
Favoritism implies a showing of intent...You intend for someone to be favored over another. Accidentally(negligence) missing something, does not show any MU intent to reach a "favorable" finding of no assault.
This is being handled right, and we need to let is be thorough, and well reasoned work---both sides are entitled to fair justice...outside of the press.
"Let justice be done though the heavens fall."
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have at it
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=26559.0
All the conjecture your little Billiken heart could desire.
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Just out of curiosity, I was pretty sure they were investigating a sexual assault...not rape correct? I guess that would rule out a "train"...
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Mods please superbar this rumor mongering troller thread.
In the Al ...should involve Biliken types only on Majerus, and Raymonds, ..our points in common
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Nah, our team flies charter. Haven't used Amtrak in years.
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I don't know if the players are guilty or innocent of anything. But I was thinking, why not have a "Life Lesson" with the topic "Respecting a woman". It might avoid alot of future problems for many parties.
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I don't know if the players are guilty or innocent of anything. But I was thinking, why not have a "Life Lesson" with the topic "Respecting a woman". It might avoid a lot of future problems for many parties.
that'll do it. why haven't they thought of that before. and make it requisit watching for all new comers and we'll live happily ever after ;D
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that'll do it. why haven't they thought of that before. and make it requisit watching for all new comers and we'll live happily ever after ;D
http://www.youtube.com/v/QS2UsjBufqE
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Just out of curiosity, I was pretty sure they were investigating a sexual assault...not rape correct? I guess that would rule out a "train"...
+1 since they cannot tell the difference between assault, which is not the case here, and harassment, which is the allegation here, this rumor by definition is wrong.
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Thank houwarrior for your insight, very much appreciated.
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that'll do it. why haven't they thought of that before. and make it requisit watching for all new comers and we'll live happily ever after ;D
Well, no one can guarantee stupidity won't rule, but at least it is worth giving a try. If it wasn't important, why are these fans dedicating 14 pages + on this issue.
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Thank houwarrior for your insight, very much appreciated.
+1
Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up, houwarrior!
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+1
Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up, houwarrior!
+2
A great post, definitely helpful to those of us that went to Marquette for something other than law ;D
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I'm surprised all these months have passed with no mention of this
http://query.municourt.milwaukee.gov/AllDetails.asp?CNumber=10129943
Defendant Information Name: VANDER LEE BLUE
Month of Birth: 07/1992 Sex: Male Race: Black
Last Known Address: 1716 W WISCONSIN AV, Apt 561, MILWAUKEE, WI 53233
Case Summary Case Number: 10129943 Status: Active
Type of Case: Municipal citation
Citation Number: 61079292 Deposit Amount: $366.00
Violation: Ordinance 105-2, Assault and Battery
Violation Date and Time: 10/24/2010 1:30 AM
Violation Location: 1610 W WELLS ST
Plea: Not Guilty Plea was entered by: Defense Attorney
Collection? No Installment Plan? No
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Note that their are three types of Assault ..
Felonious Assault (think hurting someone)
Misdemeanor Assault (think hitting someone)
Municipal Assault (think pushing someone).
Vander was arrested for Municipal assault (the lowest of the three). He pleas not guilty at posts a $366 fine. His court appearance is April 19. If found guilty, the court keeps the fine and nothing more.
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Anyone know if this is legit? The link doesn't work. Seems odd that Jerry Boyle would sign up and post this here now...
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Anyone know if this is legit? The link doesn't work. Seems odd that Jerry Boyle would sign up and post this here now...
I just looked it up. It's legit :(
He's charged with violating Milwaukee Ordinance 105-2, Assault and Battery.
I have no clue what that is. I tried to look it up, but Jerry's explanation is more than I found elsewhere.
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I'm surprised all these months have passed with no mention of this
http://query.municourt.milwaukee.gov/AllDetails.asp?CNumber=10129943
Defendant Information Name: VANDER LEE BLUE
Month of Birth: 07/1992 Sex: Male Race: Black
Last Known Address: 1716 W WISCONSIN AV, Apt 561, MILWAUKEE, WI 53233
Case Summary Case Number: 10129943 Status: Active
Type of Case: Municipal citation
Citation Number: 61079292 Deposit Amount: $366.00
Violation: Ordinance 105-2, Assault and Battery
Violation Date and Time: 10/24/2010 1:30 AM
Violation Location: 1610 W WELLS ST
Plea: Not Guilty Plea was entered by: Defense Attorney
Collection? No Installment Plan? No
---
Note that their are three types of Assault ..
Felonious Assault (think hurting someone)
Misdemeanor Assault (think hitting someone)
Municipal Assault (think pushing someone).
Vander was arrested for Municipal assault (the lowest of the three). He pleas not guilty at posts a $366 fine. His court appearance is April 19. If found guilty, the court keeps the fine and nothing more.
All it means is that he got into a fight/altercation, and the fact it was charged as an ordinance violation - essentially a citation - rather than a criminal offense indicates it wasn't particularly serious.
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All it means is that he got into a fight/altercation, and the fact it was charged as an ordinance violation - essentially a citation - rather than a criminal offense indicates it wasn't particularly serious.
I knew someone at MU who got a charge like this after an early morning altercation at Real Chili (where else?). IIRC, he showed up to court, got his money back and that was that. That said, my friend's altercation took place 10 years ago and the exact details are a little foggy so I'm not swearing by this.
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Geez...so much for the board avoiding naming names.
Why would a defense atty MORE publicly post charges against anyone?
Maybe this is Bizzaro world Jerry Boyle (seinfeld)
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So is the assumption that Jerry Boyle's link is the "assault" which has raised all this stink? Is that not good news all things considered?
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So is the assumption that Jerry Boyle's link is the "assault" which has raised all this stink? Is that not good news all things considered?
i don't think so as the date of "the assault" was 10/30/10 and supposedly involved 4 unnamed individuals
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From what I know these were two separate incidents. The municipal assault was VERY SIMILAR to the post below
Not sure why the crying foul about using his name in the post considering it is a matter of public record on that website...
http://query.municourt.milwaukee.gov/Home.asp
I knew someone at MU who got a charge like this after an early morning altercation at Real Chili (where else?). IIRC, he showed up to court, got his money back and that was that. That said, my friend's altercation took place 10 years ago and the exact details are a little foggy so I'm not swearing by this.
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Correct ... these are two separate incidents a week apart last October.
Vander's took place October 24 at 16th/Wells at 1:30AM.
The harassment was October 30 (Halloween party) supposedly at Humphrey.
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I think it's safe to say that's not really Gerry Boyle - Especially seeing as he spelled the man's name wrong.
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I think Vander just punched someone...Not really a huge deal.
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I think Vander just punched someone...Not really a huge deal.
Unless you're the other someone. Not the kinda crap you want your university representatives gettin' into.
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True, but in relation to the topic post and the punishments that could come down from that Vander's act seems pretty minor. This could end very badly. I am very concerned
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The Assistant DA says that if she decides to press charges, it won't be until mid-May.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/119093059.html
"They must bust in early May, orders from the DA". Maybe she's a Dylan fan.
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I think Vander just punched someone...Not really a huge deal.
Vander plead Not Guilty so he doesn't think he did anything wrong.
If he is found guilty on the 19th, what/how does Buzz punish him? Does he sit an early season game next year?
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I think it's safe to say that's not really Gerry Boyle - Especially seeing as he spelled the man's name wrong.
I'm not Gerry Boyle.
So how can a public arrest of a basketball player go seven months with no mention here?
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I'm not Gerry Boyle.
So how can a public arrest of a basketball player go seven months with no mention here?
Haymaker? Is that you?
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So how can a public arrest of a basketball player go seven months with no mention here?
Arrest? There's no arrest for something you get fined $300 for :P
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Arrest? There's no arrest for something you get fined $300 for :P
Then why did a defense attorney enter a plea of not guilty? Why is it going to trial on April 19h? Vander is going to wind up paying more for the defense attorney than the fine.
Reason: He was arrested! But, you're correct it was for a municipal violation of assault and battery, but an arrest nevertheless.
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Then why did a defense attorney enter a plea of not guilty? Why is it going to trial on April 19h?
He's not "going to trial." He is making an appearance in front of a municipal judge. Just like someone who has a speeding ticket has such an option.
And where does it say that he is represented by an attorney?
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Violation Location: 1610 W WELLS ST
Perhaps VB was upset that he wasn't getting his Starbucks fix in the speedy manner befitting a Rivals 5 star?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxHPevujqZM
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Then why did a defense attorney enter a plea of not guilty? Why is it going to trial on April 19h? Vander is going to wind up paying more for the defense attorney than the fine.
Reason: He was arrested! But, you're correct it was for a municipal violation of assault and battery, but an arrest nevertheless.
You don't need an attorney to enter a plea of not guilty.
He was probably issued a ticket rather than being arrested. Last time I got a speeding ticket I didn't leave my car on 794 and go to lock up in handcuffs.
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Vander plead Not Guilty so he doesn't think he did anything wrong.
That's not necessarily the case. He'll likely end up paying a fine and it'll go away, but there are some red flags here. Clearly there were some things hanging over these guys heads this fall, and you have to wonder how that impacted things on the court.
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Since it seems a matter of debate-- when you are pulled over, you are under the momentary detention of an officer.
When the officer decides you are to be issued a ticket whether for speeding, littering, or shoving someone (possibly, a Muni level assault)... you are under arrest...handcuffs and the back seat of the cruiser, are simply control and transport methods.
Then you sign the ticket---agreeing that: 1-you've received a charging document (ticket), 2-that you've been given a date to appear on this charge (initial appearance); and that 3- you have agreed to appear then, to plead to the charge--guilty/not guilty (under risk of a second further charge--failure to appear);
Your signature is a deal with the cop, who is really saying.... --I charged you, you have a date to respond(appear), and you have agreed to show up ....So....I (the officer) , in exchange, am agreeing to release you from this arrest status (on your own recognicance--without a bond) , and I'm now ending your moment of arrest.
Often, they'll even announce that moment by saying, ...thank, you--please drive safely...lol
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Since it seems a matter of debate-- when you are pulled over, you are under the momentary detention of an officer.
When the officer decides you are to be issued a ticket whether for speeding, littering, or shoving someone (possibly, a Muni level assault)... you are under arrest...handcuffs and the back seat of the cruiser, are simply control and transport methods.
Then you sign the ticket---agreeing that: 1-you've received a charging document (ticket), 2-that you've been given a date to appear on this charge (initial appearance); and that 3- you have agreed to appear then, to plead to the charge--guilty/not guilty (under risk of a second further charge--failure to appear);
Your signature is a deal with the cop, who is really saying.... --I charged you, you have a date to respond(appear), and you have agreed to show up ....So....I (the officer) , in exchange, am agreeing to release you from this arrest status (on your own recognicance--without a bond) , and I'm now ending your moment of arrest.
Often, they'll even announce that moment by saying, ...thank, you--please drive safely...lol
So, I have been answering the question of "have you ever been arrested?" incorrectly because I received a speeding ticket? Am I the only one? :)
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So is the assumption that Jerry Boyle's link is the "assault" which has raised all this stink? Is that not good news all things considered?
The arrest of Vander for the altercation is completely separate from the incident at Humphrey Hall. They happened on different days.
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And where does it say that he is represented by an attorney?
Go to the previous page and read the public record. It clearly says Vander entered a not guilty plea via a defense attorney. So he had a hearing and he probably spent a least $1000 on an attorney to enter this plea.
If it's not the big deal you say, why doesn't Vander pay the fine and move on?
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So, I have been answering the question of "have you ever been arrested?" incorrectly because I received a speeding ticket? Am I the only one? :)
Yes, everytime you're handed a ticket, it is technically an arrest. That's why most employment forms I see say "other than ticketed violations, have you been arrested?"
Vander was arrested (ticketed) for assault and battery, hired an attorney, plead not guilty, and goes before a judge (trial) on April 19.
Sounds to me this is as serious as sexual harassment (not sexual assault or rape as too many here confuse the charges with).
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That's not necessarily the case. He'll likely end up paying a fine and it'll go away, but there are some red flags here. Clearly there were some things hanging over these guys heads this fall, and you have to wonder how that impacted things on the court.
Vander Blue is hardly the first - nor will he be the last - Marquette basketball player involved in a fight on or around campus.
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Go to the previous page and read the public record. It clearly says Vander entered a not guilty plea via a defense attorney. So he had a hearing and he probably spent a least $1000 on an attorney to enter this plea.
If it's not the big deal you say, why doesn't Vander pay the fine and move on?
Very few people "pay the fine and move on" in a case like this if they don't have to. And, frankly, those that do are idiots. This includes those who get a speeding ticket. Go to court, especially with an attorney, and the chances are you either get a much better disposition or the case gets dropped altogether. Prosecutors, police and judges are too busy to try these matters unless they have no choice, and don't want the hassle of trying to put together discovery, line up witnesses, spend time in court, etc., for a minor ordinance violation. The defendant that shows up in court a time or two and demands a trial is going to get a far better resolution (and one that keeps the disposition off his/her record) than the one who pays the fine to make it go away.
And, no, it doesn't cost $1,000 to get an attorney to enter a plea. Even Gerry Boyle's rates aren't that high, and it's unlikely he, rather than an associate, would show up in court on something like that.
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And, no, it doesn't cost $1,000 to get an attorney to enter a plea. Even Gerry Boyle's rates aren't that high, and it's unlikely he, rather than an associate, would show up in court on something like that.
Enter a plea and then return on the 19th to argue the case ... and in between do some sort of discovery ... $1,000 might be low.
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Vander Blue is hardly the first - nor will he be the last - Marquette basketball player involved in a fight on or around campus.
You this cavalier about sexual harassment too?
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True, but in relation to the topic post and the punishments that could come down from that Vander's act seems pretty minor. This could end very badly. I am very concerned
Why so ominous?
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The arrest of Vander for the altercation is completely separate from the incident at Humphrey Hall. They happened on different days.
The only way I get bothered by a college kid getting a fine for punching someone is if that said college kid was present for a possible sexual assault that same week.
Then, we'd have questions.
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Vander Blue is hardly the first - nor will he be the last - Marquette basketball player STUDENT involved in a fight on or around campus.
Fixed.
Certainly we all want the players to always make good decisions, but they need to be compared to their peer group to provide some context.
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You this cavalier about sexual harassment too?
Yes, as well as serial killings, mass rape, CIA orchestrated assassinations, genital mutilation and genocide.
Congratulations on the worst attempt in MU Scoop history to link two entirely unrelated issues.
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The only way I get bothered by a college kid getting a fine for punching someone is if that said college kid was present for a possible sexual assault that same week.
Then, we'd have questions.
No one has been accused of sexual assault.
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everybody has a bad week now and then, right
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No one has been accused of sexual assault.
Actually they have been. They were just found to have broken the sexual harassment policy by Marquette. The accuser went to the police with claims of sexual assault. The DA has not passed judgement on the case.
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Actually they have been. They were just found to have broken the sexual harassment policy by Marquette. The accuser went to the police with claims of sexual assault. The DA has not passed judgement on the case.
You are correct ... MU investigated and found no evidence of sexual assault, but found evidence of sexual harassment. The accuser was not satisfied with this result and months later took it tot he Milwaukee police.
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Vander Blue is hardly the first - nor will he be the last - Marquette basketball player involved in a fight on or around campus.
WISN hasn't reported on this yet, apparently they were having trouble getting a quote from Derrick Wendler on the "word around campus."
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WISN hasn't reported on this yet, apparently they were having trouble getting a quote from Derrick Wendler on the "word around campus."
It is bad lazy reporting to run around the MU campus hoping to muckrake some rumors circulating among the students.
I hope no student would validate that, or even talk to WISN reporters, except to share what they have direct personal knowledge of,....as repeating a hearsay rumor, that is not true, is libel.
Has the word around campus ever been wrong? Trust your word and personal knowledge--but always be skeptical of that of others. Thanks.
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So...seeing as there's been no action on this thread in 4 days...is no news good news?
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No no news means no news. Nothing will be true or false til May. Until then this is all speculation.