MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Norm on January 18, 2011, 09:35:51 PM
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I think EWill and J Jones should have been in sooner, but MU is up 30 now - give them some playing time!
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Great idea, especially in light of the Louisville game.
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Nah, I think Buzz is right in keeping everyone in after the Ville debacle. With 5 min to go, then the bench can clear.
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I think EWill and J Jones should have been in sooner, but MU is up 30 now - give them some playing time!
After Saturday, don't think he'll call off the dogs with over 8 minutes left.
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7 to go. It's time. Let Blue, Cadougan, DG, EWill and JJ finish from here. With a little Frozena mixed in. An injury to a starter would be unforgivable at this point.
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Yeah put them in. This team ain't louisville
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Up 36 on a terrible team with 6 to go and no bench yet. Depaul like an AAU team, Not Louisville. Man, its 36 point lead.
Gardner, Jones and EWill probably wondering if they will ever play in a game.
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After Saturday, don't think he'll call off the dogs with over 8 minutes left.
Yeah, but its a 35 point lead now with just over 6 to play - against DePaul. They hardly ever play with the top 8. Today would have been a good time to play them in the mix.
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I think EWill and J Jones should have been in sooner, but MU is up 30 now - give them some playing time!
We just lost a game where we had a lead of 18 and we still lose. KILL KILL KILLL
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IMO he waited a perfect amount of time. Reinforce how we need to keep the pedal on till the end.
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IMO he waited a perfect amount of time. Reinforce how we need to keep the pedal on till the end.
Sure, but can't Buzz mix in 5 minutes of EWill with 4 regulars with a 20 point lead with 15 minutes to play and still keep attacking? Same with Jones. Why do they have to go in as a unit at the end in just mop up duty?
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I would like to have seen Buzz selectively substitute and try various combinations by adding EWil, Ox and JJones with the starters @ various times. This is our last tuneup before the gauntlet begins!
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Did anyone really think Buzz would pull the starters with 6min left? No way, no how. After Saturday's debacle, he wanted to make sure the guys knew how to sweep the leg by attacking.
Also, when you have a bitter break-up, isn't a "slumpbuster" the best cure to forget the heartbreak? Perhaps Buzz recognized that DePaul was the low-hanging fruit.
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slumpbuster...perfect analogy
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Plain and simple, Buzz shouldn't pull his starters until the other team does. If they haven't waved the white flag, why should we?
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They played about as much as they should have, and about as well as expected.
Let me also add, that I think we have a bias toward wanting to see the bench play more. It is frankly why we watch the end of these blow out games. Remember that our bias isn't Buzz's bias.
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Definitely wanted to see Melo. Frozena should never play in another game.
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One of the reasons we blew the Louisville game is because our main 6 guys were pretty tired and made some mental mistakes out there in the last 5 minutes. Louisville was on fire, but MU took dumb shots and were not moving on offense. I was hoping that Buzz would have played his bench more in the DePaul game so he could give EWill, J Jones and Gardner some actual quality time to get soem more experience, and even more so, some confidence that they can play when called upon in non-garbage time.
I'm not calling for Buzz to play these guys 10-15 minutes a game. But if they never play, we don't establish any real depth to the team ,which is supposedly the most talented in years. I was just hoping he could play these guys at maybe 5 minutes spurts with 4 of the regulars to get them better game experience.
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I don't quite get the obsession of some with wanting Buzz to play everyone. This isn't 5th grade basketball. The best players play. The guys who earned the right to play, play. I'm more concerned with who is on the court than who is sitting on the bench.
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The concept that you keep your starters in until the other team empties it's own bench is crazy talk.
Yes, that's *A* reason you would empty your bench, but there are plenty of others. A losing team, like DePaul, may not wave the white flag for a dozen reasons, including the simple, obvious need to work on their game. There's such a thing as teaching "never give up" as well.
Other reasons for a winning team pulling starters .. give your supporting cast some PT, which helps in two ways. First, it helps them develop outside practice. Second, maybe it improves morale. I imagine sitting on the bench in a 30 point blowout does not do wonders for your psyche, as in, I'm such a crappy player, I can't even get into this blowout.
Sure, the result could be, hey, I need to work harder in practice and get better. Or, the result is, screw this. I'm transferring.
I reject the "this isn't little league" argument. These guys aren't getting paid a salary (besides a free education they'll use while playing in Estonia.) The guys have egos, and as coach, you are at the mercy of teenagers.
Go ahead, roll the dice on not putting them in during a blow out, both on the kids sitting, and on the unforgivable injury to a starter playing garbage minutes.
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The concept that you keep your starters in until the other team empties it's own bench is crazy talk.
Yes, that's *A* reason you would empty your bench, but there are plenty of others. A losing team, like DePaul, may not wave the white flag for a dozen reasons, including the simple, obvious need to work on their game. There's such a thing as teaching "never give up" as well.
Other reasons for a winning team pulling starters .. give your supporting cast some PT, which helps in two ways. First, it helps them develop outside practice. Second, maybe it improves morale. I imagine sitting on the bench in a 30 point blowout does not do wonders for your psyche, as in, I'm such a crappy player, I can't even get into this blowout.
Sure, the result could be, hey, I need to work harder in practice and get better. Or, the result is, screw this. I'm transferring.
I reject the "this isn't little league" argument. These guys aren't getting paid a salary (besides a free education they'll use while playing in Estonia.) The guys have egos, and as coach, you are at the mercy of teenagers.
Go ahead, roll the dice on not putting them in during a blow out, both on the kids sitting, and on the unforgivable injury to a starter playing garbage minutes.
Agree with a lot of your analysis here...but also think that with what just happened at Lville - paranoia had to be at an all time high of possibly losing a late lead. The game also provided a good teaching example for MU's top players to keep the foot on the gas..and not get passive offensivel or devfensively - even when holding a commanding lead.
All that said...if an injury occured..it would be terrible - and also I do agree that as an end of the bench player..it probably would bum me out if I couldn't get into a game where we are up 25 with 5 minutes left...
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The concept that you keep your starters in until the other team empties it's own bench is crazy talk.
Yes, that's *A* reason you would empty your bench, but there are plenty of others. A losing team, like DePaul, may not wave the white flag for a dozen reasons, including the simple, obvious need to work on their game. There's such a thing as teaching "never give up" as well.
Other reasons for a winning team pulling starters .. give your supporting cast some PT, which helps in two ways. First, it helps them develop outside practice. Second, maybe it improves morale. I imagine sitting on the bench in a 30 point blowout does not do wonders for your psyche, as in, I'm such a crappy player, I can't even get into this blowout.
Sure, the result could be, hey, I need to work harder in practice and get better. Or, the result is, screw this. I'm transferring.
I reject the "this isn't little league" argument. These guys aren't getting paid a salary (besides a free education they'll use while playing in Estonia.) The guys have egos, and as coach, you are at the mercy of teenagers.
Go ahead, roll the dice on not putting them in during a blow out, both on the kids sitting, and on the unforgivable injury to a starter playing garbage minutes.
If a player has the attitude that he'd rather transfer than work harder in practice, I don't want him on the roster.
It's easy to say "Let the guys at the end of the bench play in a blowout," but when a coach empties the bench, the last thing he wants to do is make more substitutions, particularly because he'd be putting a contributor back into the game. That's why coaches typically don't empty the bench with 6, 7, 8 minutes left like some people call for. They give players 9 thru 12 about 2-4 minutes because that's a fair amount of time to avoid having to sub for anyone. Buzz could pull Butler, DJO and Crowder with 8 minutes left but he'd likely have to put them back later in the game when one of the EOB* guys needs a blow.
I do think that there are occasions where it would be beneficial to put one of the EOB guys in to get some work with the regulars. However, many coaches would rather keep their regulars in so that they can work on specific things (set plays, defensive rotations, press-break, etc) in real game situations. IMO, Buzz feels that it's more important to have his top 8 guys on the same page than to have the EOB guys getting a few minutes of experience just in case.
* - EOB = "end of bench"
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Listening to the post-game, Buzz "took 1000% responsibility for the loss at UL."
I write that to suggest it wasn't the players who took the foot off the gas. (Although it was a part, sure.)
In any event, DePaul is not Louisville. The BC is not the Yum center. With 8 to go, it was as over as any game gets. DePaul just did not have the horsepower to even think about a 30 point comeback.
If a player has the attitude that he'd rather transfer than work harder in practice, I don't want him on the roster.
The problem with that is .. you have freshmen on your team because they eventually turn into sophomores. The investment in one recruit is HUGE. While Duke probably doesn't recruit projects, MU has a number of them on their team every year. Kids will mature. You need to keep them around until they pay off. Guess what? These kids aren't going to be 100% mentally strong every day and stick with you.
A weeks worth of a kid being pissed off with the wrong guys whispering in their ear about PT and better usage .. and suddenly your investment just went to zero.
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Ox and Jamail played 4 minutes last night. E Will 3 because he was on the sidelines waiting to enter for nearly a minute. And people are bi*ching because they didn't get in ONE minute earlier? Gimme a break. We could beat Duke by 20 at Cameron and some people would find something to complain about.
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I'm not bitching because of one minute. Up 30 with 11 to go. We were up 33 with 8 to go. Up 38 with 6 to go.
JJ and Gardner were the first to get in at 4:08
EWill at 3,
Frozena at 1:26
Sure, in the end we're "bitching" about a few minutes. Watching in the BC, they were very long minutes, with many thinking, wow, where's Gardner? Ewill? Jones? Man, those guys must be terrible if they aren't playing now. Start the transfer clock.
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Plain and simple, Buzz shouldn't pull his starters until the other team does. If they haven't waved the white flag, why should we?
Exactly. Until the other team throws in towel, pour it on. Louisvile should always be a reminder to NEVER ease up until your opponent does.
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Although Buzz's past history of going with a short bench suggests I'm wrong, I'm going to chalk this up to the influence of the epic fail against Louisville. Even though it was just DePaul, and there was .000001% chance they were going to come back, Buzz wasn't acting rationally with the UL loss in the back of mind.
Here's hoping for more comfortable leads and blowouts that gets those other guys in the game because we'll need them on the Big Dance floor.
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Exactly. Until the other team throws in towel, pour it on. Louisvile should always be a reminder to NEVER ease up until your opponent does.
Agreed--in BEast, keep the boot on the opponents throat until you are sure they cannot get back. Uh oh, I think this might be judged as hate speech in today's PC world.
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Yeah, that was an a$$ woopin.
I want to thank Buzz for rekindling a seemingly dead rivalry. Hatred restarts the feud.
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I believe rather strongly that subs getting some tine with the starters helps their development much more than getting put in with all the other scrubs at the end of a game.
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No way we empty the bench with 8 minutes left. If you think we should at the 6 minute mark with DePaul still pressing and playing all their regulars, okay. That would give Ox and Jamail 1:52 more playing time and EWill 2:52. Still think it's much ado about nothing.
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I'm not bitching because of one minute. Up 30 with 11 to go. We were up 33 with 8 to go. Up 38 with 6 to go.
JJ and Gardner were the first to get in at 4:08
EWill at 3,
Frozena at 1:26
Sure, in the end we're "bitching" about a few minutes. Watching in the BC, they were very long minutes, with many thinking, wow, where's Gardner? Ewill? Jones? Man, those guys must be terrible if they aren't playing now. Start the transfer clock.
So you want to clear the bench with 11 minutes left?! How will you feel then when Butler and DJO have to go back into the game with 3 minutes left and a 20+ point lead because Jones and Gardner are sucking wind?
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Dpu...*that* is what is going to rekindle the rivalry? A 30 point ass-whipping?
LOL. Good luck with that.
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The problem with that is .. you have freshmen on your team because they eventually turn into sophomores. The investment in one recruit is HUGE. While Duke probably doesn't recruit projects, MU has a number of them on their team every year. Kids will mature. You need to keep them around until they pay off. Guess what? These kids aren't going to be 100% mentally strong every day and stick with you.
A weeks worth of a kid being pissed off with the wrong guys whispering in their ear about PT and better usage .. and suddenly your investment just went to zero.
Attitudes like this are a huge reason why American youths are such pansies. That's right! I went grumpy old man on you! ;D
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While I was hoping that we'd get to see some of the bench guys get a few minutes WITH our top players (ie. E-Will or Jones + 4 regular contributors, etc) I think it is worth noting that WHEN Buzz finally put those guys on the floor they looked extremely lost and the play was very sloppy.
Maybe that's because, again, it was all of them on the floor at once that led to that poor quality of play, but they were on the floor against DePaul's bench (two of which, in the final minutes, were walk-ons...actually one didn't even have his name on his jersey!) and they did not look good. It definitely looked like there was a significant drop in ability from our 7th player to our bench.
Judging by that 4-minute snapshot, practice reps are more important than game reps for those guys right now...
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Dpu...*that* is what is going to rekindle the rivalry? A 30 point ass-whipping?
LOL. Good luck with that.
DePaul has been a non-player last few years. This will heighten the revenge factor.
Then again, I don't think many of our current players will be around to remember this game.
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All I'm saying is how about sticking EWill or J Jones in when we have a 20-30 point lead with more than half the game to play? WHat's wrong with putting EWIll in for a 5 minute stretch alongside Butler, DJO, Otule and Cadougan? Or play Jones for 5 minutes at the 15 minute mark with Crowder, DJO, Otule and Cadougan? Why always wait to put them in in mop up duty in blowouts?
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I would like to have seen Buzz selectively substitute and try various combinations by adding EWil, Ox and JJones with the starters @ various times. This is our last tuneup before the gauntlet begins!
Agree with this completely. Rather than sub them all in together at the end of the game. Get them into the game flow with some of the starters. At least would have allowed Buzz to steal a few minutes here and there before "the gauntlet" games.
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All I'm saying is how about sticking EWill or J Jones in when we have a 20-30 point lead with more than half the game to play? WHat's wrong with putting EWIll in for a 5 minute stretch alongside Butler, DJO, Otule and Cadougan? Or play Jones for 5 minutes at the 15 minute mark with Crowder, DJO, Otule and Cadougan? Why always wait to put them in in mop up duty in blowouts?
Buzz put EWill in for ONE minute against Louisville when we were blowing them out. He gave up an offensive rebound put back on one end and missed a wide open lay up at the other. Those four points points seemed trivial at the time - didn't turn out that way.
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I kind of agree on this...but..to me I'd like to see Buzz develop and feed his bench guys in throughout the game, giving rotation blows to the starters better, having them as rested as possible late. You want to be sure your best five is there to finish a game. Here late first half substitutions would have benn justified, and early second half subs on 1-2 starters at a time would have been better. Dont ride your horses until they wear out!!
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Marquette is the only team DePaul ever beats. After some of our horrible losses to them, it was time to run it up.
I pay to see our good players play.
Do people really learn anything in mop-up duty that will make them better next year? The only legimate point I've seen here is working in a guy with the main lineup at the 10 minute mark. However, last night was a learning point for the main lineup so that was not going to happen.
Buzz handled it just fine.
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So you want to clear the bench with 11 minutes left?! How will you feel then when Butler and DJO have to go back into the game with 3 minutes left and a 20+ point lead because Jones and Gardner are sucking wind?
I didn't say that. I merely reported the score at 11 minutes, suggesting that by the final quarter of the game, the outcome was no longer in doubt. I'd say EWill should have come in for the last 10 minutes, Gardner and Jones maybe the last 6-8. As Norm stated, it would be good to work them in to play with the starters/first off the benchers.
And if EWill and Jones would be "sucking wind" after playing 8-10 minutes, the training staff should be fired. Gardner, OK. He's a load.
"Emptying the bench" is too pejorative. "Letting our future contributors get some practice in a real game with zero downside risk of losing the game while minimizing injury to our main players" is how I'd put it.
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Buzz put EWill in for ONE minute against Louisville when we were blowing them out. He gave up an offensive rebound put back on one end and missed a wide open lay up at the other. Those four points points seemed trivial at the time - didn't turn out that way.
Yes, because none of the regulars gave up an offensive rebound that game (see Terrence Jennings in the last 5 minutes) or missed a wide open layup (see DJO, Blue, Otule and Crowder).
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Telling you guys... slumpbuster.
Buzz viewed Depaul as the big girl at closing time after a brutal breakup. Depaul was the "slumpbuster" to make MU's main rotation forget about the heartache they just experienced. What happens after a slumpbuster? People get their confidence back, the sun starts to shine again, and they start moving on. It's a long big east season, and you need to be able to move on and not dwell. Beating Depaul by 30 probably helps remind the main guys they are worlds above the bottom five teams in the Big East. Also gives them the confidence that they can close out a team by continuing to attack.
I'm asking genuinely to those who are complaining about our bench's playing time... were you also concerned Saturday with "how does a team get over a debilitating loss like that? Mentally can they get over this?" If so, the answer is yes you can get over it mentally... slumpbuster.
If this Depaul game were instead to take place in a month (and god forbid not after another epic collapse), I think we all know the playing time of the last 6-8 minutes would be very different. And hopefully we get another opportunity to beat up on an opponent like this again... if we do, I bet we'll see Buzz treat the bench's minutes differently.
Either way, I'm all good with last night.
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I don't have a problem with what transpired in light of last year's crushing loss to DPU & coming off of last Saturday. I fell asleep at some point so I don't know if we ever started trying to run clock, but it sounds like we didn't from this thread which I think is good.
I think Fulce should be getting more minutes in general, and I think that a blowout could have presented an opportunity for that, but again I don't care given that it was probably overreaction to Saturday's debacle.
I also think that the people talking about "clearing the bench" in this thread somehow either don't understand or are being purposefully misleading. No one said "clear the bench at 11:00". Multiple people have suggested getting a bench guy minutes with 4 regulars. The suggestion is to have one bench player in the game for extended minutes, not all of them. A few minutes for Fulce, then replace him with EW, etc. No one is saying that we should play the last 5 guys on the roster for the last 10 minutes of the game.
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Buzz put EWill in for ONE minute against Louisville when we were blowing them out. He gave up an offensive rebound put back on one end and missed a wide open lay up at the other. Those four points points seemed trivial at the time - didn't turn out that way.
+1
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Yes, because none of the regulars gave up an offensive rebound that game (see Terrence Jennings in the last 5 minutes) or missed a wide open layup (see DJO, Blue, Otule and Crowder).
Certainly guys gave up offensive rebound put back baskets, though very few in that game. And guys may also have missed semi open lay ups, but none as totally wide open as EWill. I was shocked that he didn't even draw iron as he clanged it off the glass. EWill was only in the game for two possessions and gave away four points - doesn't get any worse than that.
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If I remember correctly, EWill missed the layup very quickly after he entered - maybe it has something to do with being rusty? I don't know, but Otule got used several times inside by Cleveland for DePaul. But, overall, Otule has improved this season because he actually gets playing time. Every player on the floor makes mistakes out there, but they get to play through them.