MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NersEllenson on August 05, 2010, 05:19:51 PM
-
Sorry to rehash..but thought this might get lost in Rosiak blog. Doesn't sound very good for those of us who wanted to exenorate Buzz of any wrongdoing in the Newbill recruitment. IF Newbill is willing to say it to the MU beat writer...seems to me it probably was a Buzz-cut situation. Hopefully it doesn't happen again.
Philadelphia guard D.J. Newbill, who would have been an incoming freshman but ultimately was released from his scholarship when Wilson transferred in from Oregon, has signed with Southern Mississippi.
I actually got a hold of Newbill recently, but he was hesitant to talk about what actually went down.
In fact, the only question he answered was whether his signing was considered "soft" -- meaning Newbill was aware of the possibility that he might not wind up at MU if the program were able to add another player like Wilson, yet signed anyway.
"They didn't tell me that," he said. "Come on. I could have went to West Virginia, Georgetown, Florida State -- you think I'm going to go there if they're telling me something like that?"
Newbill then said he had to take a phone call from his coach, and would call me back. I have yet to hear back from him.
-
"They didn't tell me that," he said. "Come on. I could have went to West Virginia, Georgetown, Florida State -- you think I'm going to go there if they're telling me something like that?"
Exactly.
-
As I expected. For all the Buzz excuse makers, have at it!
-
I don't care one way or another. I have nothing to defend since I have no problem with oversigning.
But FSU was filled up for the '10 class last fall and already had their 4 star guard, G Town already had a 4 star guard and didn't take another. And WVU used the open scholly on a big.
Just cause the kid says he had offers doesn't mean it's the case, the way things played out says those schools weren't even in the market for a guard.
-
The plain reality is that this Newbill situation created three distinct groups and one extreme minority group.
(1) One group will lay all the blame at Newbill's feet and refuse to accept any blame attributable to Buzz or MU.
(2) The second group will call for Buzz's head, citing his unconscionable acts as evidence that he is not representing MU in the right manner.
(3) The third group, and hopefully the majority group, will simply say that they will never know what happened, and furthermore, that they don't need to know what happened to know that the appearance of impropriety is enough to make it not sit well. This final group will acknowledge that it takes two to tango, and that at the very least, Buzz put himself in a position where he was vulnerable to accusations. The only hope of this group is, that regardless of who's at blame, that Buzzs learn from the situation and hopefully does not find himself in it again.
(4) I fall in the fourth group, which is admittedly the extreme minority group. My group blames the whole Newbill mess on Trevor Mbakwe.
-
The plain reality is that this Newbill situation created three distinct groups and one extreme minority group.
(1) One group will lay all the blame at Newbill's feet and refuse to accept any blame attributable to Buzz or MU.
(2) The second group will call for Buzz's head, citing his unconscionable acts as evidence that he is not representing MU in the right manner.
(3) The third group, and hopefully the majority group, will simply say that they will never know what happened, and furthermore, that they don't need to know what happened to know that the appearance of impropriety is enough to make it not sit well. This final group will acknowledge that it takes two to tango, and that at the very least, Buzz put himself in a position where he was vulnerable to accusations. The only hope of this group is, that regardless of who's at blame, that Buzzs learn from the situation and hopefully does not find himself in it again.
(4) I fall in the fourth group, which is admittedly the extreme minority group. My group blames the whole Newbill mess on Trevor Mbakwe.
How about a fifth group, that puts the blame on Tim/Jeronne Maymon?
-
Good luck to Newbill at So. Miss and let's move on.
All this talk about a player that nobody on here knows. Like I've said he's a big boy, he will be fine.
-
Good for Rosiak for pressing the questions. They needed to be asked. I know some here would prefer to sweep this under the rug but I am sorry, it was not a good situation.
So much for some saying Rosiak is a shill for Marquette. Lord knows you would never get an inquiry like this from Potrykus.
Hope Buzz learns something from this situation.
-
(4) I fall in the fourth group, which is admittedly the extreme minority group. My group blames the whole Newbill mess on Trevor Mbakwe.
+1
-
I think the take-away in all of this is I hope Buzz learns from this situation. I'm not pointing figners to say he was wrong, but in his two seasons on Marquette he's signed one player that got to summer school to find out he was in way over his head and allowed his release (Roseboro) and signed another player that he possibly felt could/would be in the same position but released him before he even got to summer school.
Buzz needs to possibly be more selective in who he offers scholarships too, or who he accepts them from.
I hope he works it out, because I don't want this to become a regular summer activity (cutting ties with incoming freshman recruits - Roseboro and Newbill).
-
I'm with you MUCAM.....
Some say that Trevor invented the Cesarean Section when he round-house kicked his way out of his mother's womb. I guess it was then when he decided he never wanted to be inside a woman again!
-
The plain reality is that this Newbill situation created three distinct groups and one extreme minority group.
(1) One group will lay all the blame at Newbill's feet and refuse to accept any blame attributable to Buzz or MU.
(2) The second group will call for Buzz's head, citing his unconscionable acts as evidence that he is not representing MU in the right manner.
(3) The third group, and hopefully the majority group, will simply say that they will never know what happened, and furthermore, that they don't need to know what happened to know that the appearance of impropriety is enough to make it not sit well. This final group will acknowledge that it takes two to tango, and that at the very least, Buzz put himself in a position where he was vulnerable to accusations. The only hope of this group is, that regardless of who's at blame, that Buzzs learn from the situation and hopefully does not find himself in it again.
(4) I fall in the fourth group, which is admittedly the extreme minority group. My group blames the whole Newbill mess on Trevor Mbakwe.
How about this group
No one is calling for Buzz's head, that's bizarre and ridiculous. Own up to your commitments, don't do this crap again. We shouldn't be automatically calling the kid, his parents and his coaches liars. And, the head coach should deliver the news to the kid directly.
Most of all, we simply shouldn't be accepting LOI's unless we plan on honoring them, but that doesn't mean we are calling for Buzz's head. That's the group I'm in
-
Interesting, but until we've heard both sides, who can really know?
-
why wasn't he asked about his paperwork situation? Oh that's right. He made up some excuse to get off the phone while promising to call back but never did. sounds totally blameless, right?
and I do wish this whole thing never happened and that we don't make a habit of it.
-
Monarch called the coach, how do you knoiw that buzz didn't call DJ?
-
a lot about nothing that will never happen...must be a slow time in sports.
-
I'm with you MUCAM.....
Some say that Trevor invented the Cesarean Section when he round-house kicked his way out of his mother's womb. I guess it was then when he decided he never wanted to be inside a woman again!
You are preaching to the choir here, my man.
Mbakwe had to be at the bottom of this giant scandal. That dude's tears don't cure cancer.....which is actually a shame, seeing as all he does is cry. Giant baby.
-
Monarch called the coach, how do you knoiw that buzz didn't call DJ?
This is the first thing you've said in 5 years that makes any sense.
-
How about this group
No one is calling for Buzz's head, that's bizarre and ridiculous.
No it's not bizarre or ridiculous, calling for his head though would be extremely ridiculous.
Even if Buzz did the worst case scenario here and Buzz-cut the kid because he felt Wilson was a better player, it would be a wrong thing to do, but hopefully something Buzz learned a serious lesson about what shouldn't be done again.
I don't know if that's exactly what happened, but if that was the case, i'd give Buzz one mulligan so long as it's never done again and chalk it up as a mistake by a young coach acting overzealous in a desire to build Marquette into a big time winner. Just as sometimes recruits aren't perfect and make mistakes, coaches can also make mistakes, especially first time head coaches.
This situation regardless of how it actually went down has received quite a bit of attention and if Buzz is a smart man, he won't put himself in a spot where it can happen again. If that ends up being the case going forward, the situation with Newbill will be dropped in my mind at least.
-
What if this is a policy and only gets exercised when someone like a Jamil Wilson is available. Maybe every year there is a lowest desired recruit that could get the LOI pulled if a Jamil Wilson type of player is ready to transfer to Marquette. It just actually happened this year and Newbill was the lowest recruit coming in.
-
"They didn't tell me that," he said. "Come on. I could have went to West Virginia, Georgetown, Florida State -- you think I'm going to go there if they're telling me something like that?"
I call BS! If that's the case, some other high Div I school would have made room for him with a cut of their own. Newbill's living in a dream world. I wish him the best, and hope he exceeds expectations at Southern Miss.
DJ - feel free to prove me and Buzz wrong, I'll be proud of you.
-
I think the take-away in all of this is I hope Buzz learns from this situation. I'm not pointing figners to say he was wrong, but in his two seasons on Marquette he's signed one player that got to summer school to find out he was in way over his head and allowed his release (Roseboro) and signed another player that he possibly felt could/would be in the same position but released him before he even got to summer school.
Buzz needs to possibly be more selective in who he offers scholarships too, or who he accepts them from.
I hope he works it out, because I don't want this to become a regular summer activity (cutting ties with incoming freshman recruits - Roseboro and Newbill).
You're exactly right as to what the "takeaway" should be for Buzz. I'm sick of hearing how "don't do it again" is the lesson learned. You go into late June with a full roster, every year. If you don't you're pretty much self-imposing a one scholarship penality in most years, or taking a bottom of the barrel player which is the same difference. It's not every year a Top 100 recruit wants to transfer in at the end of June and there's an incoming recruit that for whatever reason you're comfortable with cutting. The "mistake" is taking the commitment in the first place, not in failing to "honor" it by pretending you want the player around for a year before you cut them. Seems like we've seen a ton of posts recently about unheard of, "up and comers" or unknowns that we're supposedly being mentioned with, so hopefully if that's the case they're DJOs and not players who we'll take without knowing.
I call BS! If that's the case, some other high Div I school would have made room for him with a cut of their own. Newbill's living in a dream world. I wish him the best, and hope he exceeds expectations at Southern Miss.
DJ - feel free to prove me and Buzz wrong, I'll be proud of you.
Was puzzled by that as well - he didn't mention being offered by Georgetown and Florida State way back in January. Did anyone? Next we're going to hear that he passed on Duke and Kansas.
-
Sorry to rehash..
but he was hesitant to talk about what actually went down.
Newbill then said he had to take a phone call from his coach, and would call me back. I have yet to hear back from him.
Some of you are not sorry to rehash. When you're able to believe in things you make up, it's easy to come to a conclusion that makes you feel good.
-
While we will never know exactly what happened, Newbills comment made me a bit disappointed. If we make a commitment to a kid, we should stick with it. That is what the Marquette program and the University is all about. I also would think the University Administration is disappointed.
-
Sad to see that some here call B.S. or continue to call the kid, his parents and coaches liars. That will certainly reflect well with other recruits visiting the board. ::)
Jay Bee....Ners is so far up Buzz's hole, he's the last guy that gets satisfaction out of this and he started the thread.
Atwiz, we have heard both sides of the story....MU's side was leaked to the appropriate parties that put their version out there. To think we haven't heard the MU side is not correct.
To this day, there are still some people on this board that actually think it's no big deal to not honor commitments. Strange to say the least.
-
Sad to see that some here call B.S. or continue to call the kid, his parents and coaches liars. That will certainly reflect well with other recruits visiting the board. ::)
Ugh... I didn't want to be tied back into this debate, but the question has to be asked.
Did we expect to hear anything else from Newbill?
Hypothetically, say things went down as IWB detailed. Does anyone on here think he would come out and say "I took an offer knowing that could happen." Come on. Of course he's gonna give the quote he did, regardless of what actually happened.
And Rocky is 100% correct. If any of those schools wanted him that badly, he'd be on their campus right now. One way or the other.
-
And Rocky is 100% correct. If any of those schools wanted him that badly, he'd be on their campus right now. One way or the other.
Really....so they would bail on their own LOI committed players? I don't think so. I've asked time and time again for examples of players being cut AFTER their LOI and the only examples that are provided is when a kid gets in major trouble with the law or doesn't get test scores.
Why would other schools bail on their LOI's like we did? Seems they got it right, not the other way around. Stop making excuses for a bad bad mistake on our part and lets hope like hell we learn from it and don't do it again.
-
Good for Rosiak for pressing the questions. They needed to be asked. I know some here would prefer to sweep this under the rug but I am sorry, it was not a good situation.
So much for some saying Rosiak is a shill for Marquette. Lord knows you would never get an inquiry like this from Potrykus.
Hope Buzz learns something from this situation.
Unfortunately, DJ only answered ONE of the questions Rosiak asked, claiming offers to WVU, Georgetown and FSU. I'm sorry, but guys with offers like that don't end up with Southern Miss as their best option in August, let alone June.
That he wouldn't answer other questions and never kept his promise to call Rosiak back also gives me pause.
That said, I hope that Buzz can avoid this kind of drama in the future. Not accepting a LOI unless you're sure you really want a guy (no "conditions") would be a welcome policy going forward.
-
I've asked time and time again for examples of players being cut AFTER their LOI and the only examples that are provided is when a kid gets in major trouble with the law or doesn't get test scores.
Stop making excuses for a bad bad mistake on our part and lets hope like hell we learn from it and don't do it again.
And while we're compiling these lists, find me guys who had an LOI signed, without an application for admission submitted. A week before starting classes. That still doesn't add up.
I'm not making excuses. I just refuse to accept everything from the Newbill camp as gospel.
And for the record, I'm not a fan of the conditional LOI either. But I still have a very hard time believing in this case, that is wasn't communicated.
Best of luck to DJ.
-
I don't get it. Chicks says we have heard MU's side of the story through the leak to IWB. Chicos thinks it's wrong for people to question a kid now saying he had offers from certain schools that he had never before mentioned having offers to and his coach who was supposedly fired as a result of an athletic director's jealousy of his success (does that make any sense whatsoever? Wouldn't an AD WANT success in the program? Maybe this guy has a history of lying, resulting in his firing if he had so much on court success?) who, after posting here for a while, admits he hasn't been involved in DJ's recruitment, all of a sudden disappears after people start finding out more about it? The only truths we have heard for sure is DJ was a few days from moving in yet admittedly not sent in his application or signed up for the Pro-Am. We heard this from Newbill's camp. He wouldn't lie about those things.
So we are wrongfor questioning these people, but it's OK to accuse MU of lying, as you clearly believe? You state we heard MU's side through their leaking information to IWB, yet you clearly believe Newbill's camp stating they didn't
-
Best of luck to DJ, but, until MU's side of the story is heard, the jury is out.
-
To this day, there are still some people on this board that actually think it's no big deal to not honor commitments. Strange to say the least.
Strange indeed. Didn't Crean sign a 10 year deal at Marquette around 2006?
-
Strange indeed. Didn't Crean sign a 10 year deal at Marquette around 2006?
Oh snap!
-
Strange indeed. Didn't Crean sign a 10 year deal at Marquette around 2006?
That's a double showcase winner, Titan.
-
I have it in pretty damn good authority that Georgetown was never going to be an option for Newbill.
Who cares anymore. Good Luck at Southern Miss.
-
Is that prior to Newbill's signing of the LOI?
I don't think we can come right out and say "well if he didn't go to Gtown or WVU then he must be lying" because after his release he could not go to a Big East school. Not saying this at all to discount your information GOMU because I'm looking at this without any source of info, just saying that many of us can't make a blanket statement. However, he could have gone to FSU, I don't know their scholarship situation when this all went down. So I am pretty skeptical of that whole statement due to that and the fact that it seems Georgetown and FSU have kind of come out of nowhere as far as I know. We heard about WVU.
As for Chicos' statement that it is so wrong to presume this kid is lying, I admit I'm hoping/looking for the best possible way for MU to come out looking ok in this. I'm an MU fan, not a DJ Newbill fan so it is natural I guess. However, I think it goes deeper than just intense fanhood. He was hurt and let down no matter which version of events are true (his or IWB's). It was near the end of summer and it looked like he was going to go to his dream school, but then something changed and he couldn't(by his version he had his LOI pulled out of nowhere. By IWB's version the risk didn't pay off in his conditional offer). Either way when discussing something where you were let down or disappointed, don't most people exaggerate things or say things that make themselves look better? I'll be the first to admit I do. That's why I don't think it is wrong or us being terrible people to be skeptical about what Newbill says.
I think it is wrong to just blindly assume that he is telling the truth and IWB is lying. Also, it is wrong to blindly assume that he is lying and IWB is telling the truth, but with the application stuff and some of the other things, it makes it easier for me to see IWB's story.
-
MU's English Dept. probably has enough on it's plate. Better that DJ gone to USM.
-
No it's not bizarre or ridiculous, calling for his head though would be extremely ridiculous.
Even if Buzz did the worst case scenario here and Buzz-cut the kid because he felt Wilson was a better player, it would be a wrong thing to do, but hopefully something Buzz learned a serious lesson about what shouldn't be done again.
I don't know if that's exactly what happened, but if that was the case, i'd give Buzz one mulligan so long as it's never done again and chalk it up as a mistake by a young coach acting overzealous in a desire to build Marquette into a big time winner. Just as sometimes recruits aren't perfect and make mistakes, coaches can also make mistakes, especially first time head coaches.
This situation regardless of how it actually went down has received quite a bit of attention and if Buzz is a smart man, he won't put himself in a spot where it can happen again. If that ends up being the case going forward, the situation with Newbill will be dropped in my mind at least.
I am a big buzz fan. I've liked what direction he is taking the program but I also think this situation with Newbill is an unfortunate one. The thing I don't understand is why anyone on here thinks he is going to learn some sort of lesson from this. Besides the outcry of a handful of MU BBall junkies on a message board, there hasn't really been any negative repercussions about letting Newbill go and signing Wilson. If anything, he came out on top. He got a better basketball player with D-1 experience. What leads anyone to think he is going to learn from an error in judgement when he actually benefitted from it? Positive feedback doesn't decrease behavior, it increases it.
-
Since I had made my position clear in an overly long rant quite awhile ago, I wasn't going to say anything, BUT there is a whole different can of worms being brought up here.
Many are now seizing upon DJ's hesitance to talk about this as giving them pause or somehow validating MU. Isn't the opposite THE EXACT reason that we were discounting phillycoach and others. Here is a young man who is hurting and thought he had secured a spot he really wanted, only to have it (no matter what happened, there is no other way for him to see it than) ripped out from underneath him. I say that not to overdramatize or attempt to pretend to know what happened, merely to empathize with how I'm sure DJ feels.
And while all of his camp have come out and gotten into a sh!t flinging contest, DJ refuses to do that, even when given the obvious opportunity to do so. He doesn't bash Buzz, or pretend to be able to speak to things beyond his own mind. All he attests to is that he wouldn't have taken the purported insecurity of a soft offer when other hard offers were on the table. Beyond that, he doesn't even call Rosiak back, likely because he doesn't want to talk about this anymore.
Stand up kid, particularly in the face of his camp who acted far less admirably. For shame to anyone that says otherwise.
-
Sad to see that some here call B.S. or continue to call the kid, his parents and coaches liars. That will certainly reflect well with other recruits visiting the board. ::)
As opposed to others who are all to willing to conclude that Buzz is a liar. That will certainly reflect well with other recruits visiting the board. ::)
Again from the moment this thing started, what I find absolutely pathetic and appalling is people, motivated by the distaste for Buzz Williams being hired as MU's coach, willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a handful of people they have never met, as opposed to Buzz Williams who has done nothing but represent himself and the University extremely well in the two years he's been here. Certainly makes sense to me.
-
Chicos, et. al,
While we may find this distasteful, if Buzz doesn't produce on the court, nobody (especially you Chicos), will look back and say: "But he kept his commitments".
Unfortunately, this is the way the game is played now. Put on your big boy pants and get out there.
-
Jay Bee....Ners is so far up Buzz's hole, he's the last guy that gets satisfaction out of this and he started the thread.
Pot, meet kettle? Why don't you tell us what Crean had for breakfast.
-
Yup! Here we go with the excuses that this is the way the game is played, etc.
In other words,
THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS
-
This is SO tired and SO played.
Can't we all just agree it was an unfortunate situation, hope it never happens again, and move on? End of story. Move on.
-
As most know - I'm a HUGE Buzz fan. We will never know the exact story from Buzz's perspective..unless Rosiak point blank asks him: Many have speculated that the Newbill scholarship release was simply due to a better player coming available - Jamil Wilson. What is your reaction to that? You mentioned a combination of factors led to Newbill's release - what were those factors?
I'm not 100% saying Newbill's account is all truth - As I believe - per NCAA rules - he can't come out and say that his offer was "soft" - and that he was told he could be going to prep school..because the NCAA discourages this practice.even though we know it happens - Villanova...
At the end of the day, we all hope this type of situation does not happen again in the future..and most of us have an attitude of Let's Win at ALMOST All Costs. We don't need to give Buzz a complete black eye over this - but rather a live and learn..and hope that this was a 1-time mistake of being overzealous in his desire to return MU to Elite status. He deserves/earned a pass..and let's move on..even though I felt it was relevant to bring to light Newbills comments.
-
This is SO tired and SO played.
Can't we all just agree it was an unfortunate situation, hope it never happens again, and move on? End of story. Move on.
In the words of the great Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
Move on and don't read the posts.
-
When Crean oversigned and had to let Suanders go the Crean lovers all Creaned their pants with relief that "he could not get into school" and tommy naismith did not have to go back on a commitment.
Only lesson to be learned here for Buzz iS next time he oversigns like the great Crean, is to not tell the truth and simply say "he could not get into school"
Boy there are alot of fools on this board. Top 30 recruit versus a top 400 2 guard of which we already have 5 of.
-
Another thread with a lot of guesses and suppositions. Folks, you need facts! You are welcome to your opinions, but thats all they are.
-
Another thread with a lot of guesses and suppositions. Folks, you need facts! You are welcome to your opinions, but thats all they are.
I don't know what's less interesting - the fact that we're still discussing this or the fact that people without facts are claiming they know the facts.
-
I don't know what's less interesting - the fact that we're still discussing this or the fact that people without facts are claiming they know the facts.
This is awesome. Any bets as to how many pages this newest, newbill thread will go. Where is MU84 when we need him. One post from him is surely worth a page.
-
I don't know what's less interesting - the fact that we're still discussing this or the fact that people without facts are claiming they know the facts.
It is amazing that there really are few facts period. Is anyone on this board privy to the "facts"...? Seriously doubt it.
-
What is he going to say? Yeah I knew and everyone will think I'm a total dipcrap for thinking they wouldn't recruit over me.
-
What is he going to say? Yeah I knew and everyone will think I'm a total dipcrap for thinking they wouldn't recruit over me.
No he could just say nothing, like he chose to do with everything else Rosiak asked him about.
-
Is that prior to Newbill's signing of the LOI?
I don't think we can come right out and say "well if he didn't go to Gtown or WVU then he must be lying" because after his release he could not go to a Big East school. Not saying this at all to discount your information GOMU because I'm looking at this without any source of info, just saying that many of us can't make a blanket statement. However, he could have gone to FSU, I don't know their scholarship situation when this all went down. So I am pretty skeptical of that whole statement due to that and the fact that it seems Georgetown and FSU have kind of come out of nowhere as far as I know. We heard about WVU.
I think it is wrong to just blindly assume that he is telling the truth and IWB is lying. Also, it is wrong to blindly assume that he is lying and IWB is telling the truth, but with the application stuff and some of the other things, it makes it easier for me to see IWB's story.
The bolded portion is incorrect. Since he never enrolled he was free to go wherever he wanted. That is a fact.
-
The bolded portion is incorrect. Since he never enrolled he was free to go wherever he wanted. That is a fact.
Incorrect. Since he signed the LOI with MU he's not allowed to go to another BEast school unless there are extenuating circumstances.
-
It is amazing that there really are few facts period. Is anyone on this board privy to the "facts"...? Seriously doubt it.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
What we need is speculation and lots of it. Heap on as much speculation as one can. And as much hate for players and coaches as one can as well. That way, when other potential recruits read these posts, they think these 200 fanboys are the majority of MU students and alums. That'll make em feel confident about playing here.
-
Please stop with the "we don't know the facts" mantra. Newbill has signed on with another D1 school and there are currently no indications that he will not qualify or has some outstanding legal/discipline issue that would prevent him from being eligible. That indicates that there are really only three possible scenarios for the MU - Newbill saga.
1. Buzz and staff made it clear that the offer to Newbill was contingent upon no better options becoming available and Newbill agreed to sign anyway. If this is the case, Newbill is now lying to save face.
2. Buzz and staff placed no conditions on their offer and pulled the schollie because a better option came up. If this is the case, people close to the MU program are now lying to save face.
3. Buzz and staff made a conditional offer to Newbill and thought all involved parties understood the situation clearly. Newbill was either kept out of the loop on the "conditions" of his offer by handlers or misunderstood the conditional nature of the offer. If this is the case, neither party is lying and there was a communication breakdown somewhere. This also would show why refusing to assume that DJ and his coaches are lying doesn't automatically imply that Buzz and MU are lying.
Many of us look at these three possible scenarios and think that MU doesn't really come away clean in any of them. That is why many think we should simply honor all LOIs. Those that keep saying, "we don't know the facts," are just trying to muddy the waters.
-
Amen MUSF.
MU blew this one. Here come the excuses.
-
Amen MUSF.
MU blew this one. Here come the excuses.
If they win a lot of games, they won't need excuses.
If they lose more than they should, this topic will never die.
Fans love wins. This is a fact.
-
Incorrect. Since he signed the LOI with MU he's not allowed to go to another BEast school unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Incorrect, he cannot sign another LOI, he is free to go anywhere since he was not admitted.
Letter Becomes Null and Void. This NLI shall be declared null and void if any of the following occur:
a. Admissions Requirement. This NLI shall be declared null and void if the institution named in this document notifies me in writing that I have been denied admission or, by the opening day of classes in fall 2010, has failed to provide me with written notice of admission, provided I have submitted a complete admission application. It is my obligation to provide, by request, my academic records and an application for admission to the signing institution. If I fail to submit the necessary academic credentials and/or application to determine an admission decision prior to September 1, the NLI shall be declared null and void.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/NLI+Provisions/Letter+Becomes+Null+and+Void
-
Incorrect, he cannot sign another LOI, he is free to go anywhere since he was not admitted.
Letter Becomes Null and Void. This NLI shall be declared null and void if any of the following occur:
a. Admissions Requirement. This NLI shall be declared null and void if the institution named in this document notifies me in writing that I have been denied admission or, by the opening day of classes in fall 2010, has failed to provide me with written notice of admission, provided I have submitted a complete admission application. It is my obligation to provide, by request, my academic records and an application for admission to the signing institution. If I fail to submit the necessary academic credentials and/or application to determine an admission decision prior to September 1, the NLI shall be declared null and void.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/NLI+Provisions/Letter+Becomes+Null+and+Void
It's BEast conference specific.
http://www.msnsportsnet.com/content/BigEastTransfer.pdf
I'm pretty sure that Newbill was released from his NLI instead of it being declared null and void. Is that true?
-
If I fail to submit the necessary academic credentials and/or application to determine an admission decision prior to September 1, the NLI shall be declared null and void.
I highly doubt DJ will be submitting his application to MU any longer.
-
I'm not 100% saying Newbill's account is all truth - As I believe - per NCAA rules - he can't come out and say that his offer was "soft" - and that he was told he could be going to prep school..because the NCAA discourages this practice.even though we know it happens - Villanova...
First, the Villanova situation is different. Villanova did not tell the player (Markus Kennedy) that he could not attend. They told him that if he did attend he would probably be a redshirt. Kennedy decided to defer college by a year so he could continue to play rather than sit out a season.
In fact, Villanova only has 11 scholarship players listed for 2010-11, so its hard to argue that Wright told Kennedy to go prep to sign a better player.
http://www.villanova.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/nova-m-baskbl-mtt.html
Second, the NCAA doesn't merely discourage "soft" NLIs or other extra conditions--they prohibit them outright, and the NLI voids all conditions that were previously placed. The document is pretty clear to both sides.
I fail to understand what part of "no-changes-or-additions" is so terribly confusing to you.
Maybe its because you confuse a player who voluntarily chooses to attend prep school to avoid a redshirt with one who had his scholarship taken away/no option of a redshirt.
After all the posts and links to the exact language of the NLI outlining where the NLI prohibits such extra-contractual arrangements, you're still here suggesting that Buzz DID place extra conditions on Newbill's NLI, and fault lies with Newbill fault for not understanding them.
-
It's BEast conference specific.
http://www.msnsportsnet.com/content/BigEastTransfer.pdf
I'm pretty sure that Newbill was released from his NLI instead of it being declared null and void. Is that true?
Yes, he was asked to sign a release. I believe the coach himself said it was unfortunate because it disqualified him from going to any BE school.
If they win a lot of games, they won't need excuses.
If they lose more than they should, this topic will never die.
Fans love wins. This is a fact.
True. If Wilson is an All-American in a few years and Newbill is just another CUSA player nobody's going to complain. Reverse is true too, if it would turn out that Wilson is a disappointment, our guards aren't the best in the conference, and Newbill is averaging 15+. Nobody remembers who Damian Saunders is if he's not on some NBA draft lists and Pat Hazel is still at MU and an NBA potential instead.
-
Please stop with the "we don't know the facts" mantra. Newbill has signed on with another D1 school and there are currently no indications that he will not qualify or has some outstanding legal/discipline issue that would prevent him from being eligible. That indicates that there are really only three possible scenarios for the MU - Newbill saga.
1. Buzz and staff made it clear that the offer to Newbill was contingent upon no better options becoming available and Newbill agreed to sign anyway. If this is the case, Newbill is now lying to save face.
2. Buzz and staff placed no conditions on their offer and pulled the schollie because a better option came up. If this is the case, people close to the MU program are now lying to save face.
3. Buzz and staff made a conditional offer to Newbill and thought all involved parties understood the situation clearly. Newbill was either kept out of the loop on the "conditions" of his offer by handlers or misunderstood the conditional nature of the offer. If this is the case, neither party is lying and there was a communication breakdown somewhere. This also would show why refusing to assume that DJ and his coaches are lying doesn't automatically imply that Buzz and MU are lying.
Many of us look at these three possible scenarios and think that MU doesn't really come away clean in any of them. That is why many think we should simply honor all LOIs. Those that keep saying, "we don't know the facts," are just trying to muddy the waters.
I can think of a lot of other factors that might affect the situation. For insta
-
If I fail to submit the necessary academic credentials and/or application to determine an admission decision prior to September 1, the NLI shall be declared null and void.
I highly doubt DJ will be submitting his application to MU any longer.
Dude, you're full of assumptions, which isn't helping figure anything out.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html
"Through a culmination of several things, we have decided to give D.J. Newbill his release," Williams said. "D.J.'s a great kid, he comes from a great family who we have established relationships with, and we're going to do everything we can to help him in his future, in whatever capacity that would be."
So according to Buzz, Newbill was released, so he can't go to another BEast school.
-
On the Badger board, but it's funny and appropriate
http://vodpod.com/watch/3092510-seinfeld-reservations
-
On the Badger board, but it's funny and appropriate
http://vodpod.com/watch/3092510-seinfeld-reservations
Nice....
-
On the Badger board, but it's funny and appropriate
http://vodpod.com/watch/3092510-seinfeld-reservations
Sorry, but its inappropriate here. Have you ever considered that things wen downhill after his signing? Buzz sticks by his guys as long as they work hard and do what is expected. I sense in this case that was not happening (even before ever getting near campus)....?? A bad marriage annulled?
-
Sorry, but its inappropriate here. Have you ever considered that things wen downhill after his signing? Buzz sticks by his guys as long as they work hard and do what is expected. I sense in this case that was not happening (even before ever getting near campus)....?? A bad marriage annulled?
Ahhhhhh........the naivete of a teenager in their first crush. Everything is rosy at that time.
-
Strange indeed. Didn't Crean sign a 10 year deal at Marquette around 2006?
Bravo!
-
This is awesome. Any bets as to how many pages this newest, newbill thread will go. Where is MU84 when we need him. One post from him is surely worth a page.
Him? Surely you mean HER.
-
I can think of a lot of other factors that might affect the situation. For insta
Great. What are they?
-
For me, the easiest way to tell who's lying: Buzz said all along that someone was not coming and that player knew who he was. That was way back in the spring. So far, everyone else is here or will be here shortly, and supposedly enrolling for fall. If that time comes, and everyone is here, then IMO, Newbill knew.
-
Please stop with the "we don't know the facts" mantra. Newbill has signed on with another D1 school and there are currently no indications that he will not qualify or has some outstanding legal/discipline issue that would prevent him from being eligible. That indicates that there are really only three possible scenarios for the MU - Newbill saga.
Only three? I can just as easily fabricate a few more "possible" scenarios:
1) DJ asked for his release.
2) DJ failed to pass a physical exam to the satisfaction of the medical staff.
3) DJ submitted an application with only the words "I ain't filling out no damn application" written at the top.
4) DJ's commitment was contingent upon Coach Laws getting a job somewhere in Milwaukee.
5) DJ heard about boot camp and decided he wasn't up for it.
6) DJ mistakenly called Buzz "Coach Crean" the last time he talked to him.
7) DJ messed with Texas.
-
For me, the easiest way to tell who's lying: Buzz said all along that someone was not coming and that player knew who he was. That was way back in the spring. So far, everyone else is here or will be here shortly, and supposedly enrolling for fall. If that time comes, and everyone is here, then IMO, Newbill knew.
Interesting. So let's say this is true, can you square it then with this article from Gomarquette.com, the official website of the Marquette athletics department?
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/041410aab.html
Here's the part you should focus on.....odd to me that an official release, which is approved by Buzz (all basketball releases like this go before the coach and AD for approval) says he will be at MU this Summer. Odd, don't you think, that they would put this release out there if he knew all along he wasn't coming, as you suggest. Yes, odd indeed. ::)
But let's keep telling the world our recruits are the ones that are lying, that's always a good move. ::)
April 14, 2010
Milwaukee - The Marquette University men's basketball program has signed prep standout Devonte' "DJ" Newbill to a National Letter of Intent, head coach Buzz Williams announced Wednesday morning.
Newbill, a 6-4, 195-pounder, will arrive on campus this summer and have four years of eligibility with the Golden Eagles.
"We are excited about DJ," Williams said. "Anyone that has followed our program knows the priority toughness and character are to us. DJ embodies those two qualities as well as anyone we have recruited.
"Similar to all of the others in our class thus far, DJ has won at the highest level and many times winning reveals toughness and character," Williams added.
The Pennsylvania Class AA Player of the Year and first team all-state honoree led Philadelphia's Strawberry Mansion High School to the state championship game in 2009-10. He averaged 24.2 points, 9.0 rebounds, 5.0 assists and 4.0 steals per game and was also named the Public League Player of the Year. A McDonald's All-American candidate, Newbill earned a place on the first team all-city and all-public league squads.
Strawberry Mansion advanced to the state title matchup for the second time in three years and concluded the year 28-2 overall, including a perfect 22-0 start to the campaign. Newbill was a two-year letterwinner for the Knights and netted 15 points in the championship game.
Newbill's senior campaign was highlighted by a 64-point performance in a victory over Saul. He finished the game 23-of-30 from the field and 16-of-17 from the charity stripe to set the school's single-game scoring record. It was the sixth-highest point total in public league history.
Newbill averaged 19.0 points, 7.0 rebounds, 4.0 assists and 3.0 steals per game as a junior. He was named second team all-state and also garnered second team all-public league honors.
-
So you're suggesting that IF Newbill's verbal was indeed a soft verbal then Marquette would have publicly stated as much on their basketball website despite the fact that, as others here have pointed out, soft verbals are against NCAA rules? LOL come on chicos, get real ::). What else do you suggest they should have written? "We're taking this kid and he will be on campus in August unless Jamil Wilson wants to come here, in which case he will never step on Marquette's campus." LOL ::)
I have a few simple questions for you that I am sure you will "overlook" (LOL::)):
-Have you ever exaggerated to make yourself sound better off when you appear to be in a less-than-desired situation (shoot, I forgot you and the Tanned Tommy are Saints)?
-Do you think DJ Newbill and his camp has told the complete truth?
-Do you believe Buzz Williams is lying?
-You clearly don't like people calling Newbill a liar and think potential recruits will shy away from MU because of it; is calling Buzz a liar better, as you seem to be saying?
-Do you think a potential recruit would be more worried I'd our coach was a liar or if a recruit who was let go was a liar?
-As TallTitan pointed out and you conveniently ignored (LOL::)), how is Tanned Tommy not a terrible person for not honoring his commitment to Marquette University? He did, after all, sign a 10 year contract in 2006, and here we are in 2010 and Buzz is going into his 3rd season as our head coach while The Tanned One is at "It's Indiana."
-How's my use of "LOL" and ":))"
Just for clarification, I'm only expecting you to answer my last question. You'll just "conveniently" miss the rest LOL ::)
-
Only three? I can just as easily fabricate a few more "possible" scenarios:
1) DJ asked for his release.
2) DJ failed to pass a physical exam to the satisfaction of the medical staff.
3) DJ submitted an application with only the words "I ain't filling out no damn application" written at the top.
4) DJ's commitment was contingent upon Coach Laws getting a job somewhere in Milwaukee.
5) DJ heard about boot camp and decided he wasn't up for it.
6) DJ mistakenly called Buzz "Coach Crean" the last time he talked to him.
7) DJ messed with Texas.
8) DJ found that there were people like Chico's who 'were into MU bball' and begged to be let go.
-
Much to your chagrin, I'm happy to answer all of your questions...conveniently I might add.
See below:
So you're suggesting that IF Newbill's verbal was indeed a soft verbal then Marquette would have publicly stated as much on their basketball website despite the fact that, as others here have pointed out, soft verbals are against NCAA rules? LOL come on chicos, get real ::). What else do you suggest they should have written? "We're taking this kid and he will be on campus in August unless Jamil Wilson wants to come here, in which case he will never step on Marquette's campus." LOL ::)
I have a few simple questions for you that I am sure you will "overlook" (LOL::)):
-Have you ever exaggerated to make yourself sound better off when you appear to be in a less-than-desired situation (shoot, I forgot you and the Tanned Tommy are Saints)? Yes
-Do you think DJ Newbill and his camp has told the complete truth? I don't know. What I do know is that a video of the kid comes out MONTHS ago and back then his camp says there is no soft LOI, no asking to go to prep school, everything is planned for him to be at MU. I also know that in multiple interviews with multiple media outlets, he and his family are "Stunned" "shocked" "disappointed" "upset" among other things. Are they telling the whole truth, I don't know.
-Do you believe Buzz Williams is lying? I don't know, same as above. Though it seems awfully odd that you put out a press release saying a kid is going to be here THIS school year and we can't wait to have him back in April, only to change that tune 2 months later.
-You clearly don't like people calling Newbill a liar and think potential recruits will shy away from MU because of it; is calling Buzz a liar better, as you seem to be saying? I'm not calling Buzz a liar, but I'm not drinking the KoolAid either and putting 100% of the blame on some kid and his family like you guys are. Big difference. I'm weighing the evidence I have before me....the SAME evidence that has led ESPN, Rivals.com, several Pennsylvania media outlets, etc, to come to the same conclusions I and others have.
-Do you think a potential recruit would be more worried I'd our coach was a liar or if a recruit who was let go was a liar? As stated, I'm not calling Buzz a liar, but you guys are flat out calling this kid and his camp liars. I'll give Buzz the benefit of the doubt and say he (or his staff) were very poor communicators on this as it seems crystal clear that neither his parents, Newbill, or his coaches (AAU and High school) understood what was being offered (nor, by the way, did the official press release from Marquette University..cough). It's clear, all of these people believed one thing and someone else (MU) believed something else. Strange how all of those people could get it wrong, I can only imagine that this is a bad game of telephone or simply poor communication.
-As TallTitan pointed out and you conveniently ignored (LOL::)), how is Tanned Tommy not a terrible person for not honoring his commitment to Marquette University? He did, after all, sign a 10 year contract in 2006, and here we are in 2010 and Buzz is going into his 3rd season as our head coach while The Tanned One is at "It's Indiana." Yes...but he was a terrible person even before that. The leaving just solidified it. Now, if you're comparing someone leaving a contract who has an OUT to leave that contract to what MU did to this kid and the LOI, well that's your prerogative certainly. I don't see how they are the same at all...Crean CHOSE to leave. Newbill did not CHOOSE out of his LOI, but I'm sure you already connected those dots and just put this analogy (or maybe TallTitan did) just for giggles to make an incredibly stupid comparison between the two, I don't know. I'm just guessing. But back to the original question, TC was a terrible person before that...a good coach, did great things for the university, but definitely a terrible person.
-How's my use of "LOL" and ":))"
Just for clarification, I'm only expecting you to answer my last question. You'll just "conveniently" miss the rest LOL ::)
Just for clarification, you were wrong and inconvenienced.
-
This offseason was blessed with 50 coaching changes, BCS league expansions( with a BE side effect story), tournament field expansion, NCAA investigations, and rulings on some big programs...
...But this board was truly uniquely blessed with Phillycoach joining here/chatting up DJ and then the coinciding DJ NLI/release story fueled with the accompanying speculations, opinions and recriminations---
It should be christened the NUMBER ONE offseason topic for this board--my sincerest thanks to DJ, Buzz, and especially Phillycoach.
Please keep the DJ story angles coming--- It'll take us right through to the season....I havent been "bored with the board" at any time this offseason--
....or, at the very least, it gives a "timeout" to the Crean/Buzz never ending debate/vitrol.
We owe you one Phillycoach, DJ and Buzz.
-
Chicos,
I typically do not have a problem with you nor am I trying to start a fight (you have enough of those going on on the board), but I would like to point out one thing.
You stated: "I'm not calling Buzz a liar, but I'm not drinking the KoolAid either and putting 100% of the blame on some kid and his family like you guys are. Big difference."
However, a good majority of this board has stated that the truth likely lies somewhere between IWB's account and Newbill's account. It seems like you are trying to take the middle ground and accusing everyone else of bashing Newbill when that doesn't even seem to be the position of others. Not to mention, a strong majority of your posts have been taking Newbill's side which you not state you don't know whether he is telling the truth or not.
The point I'm trying to make is we can certainly bash Newbill or bash Buzz, but you said it best in your last post. We don't know what happened. I don't personally think it was as simple Wilson was available and Newbill was last on the totem poll. I get the impression that there was some falling out between the signing and when Newbill was suppose to report (note: this is an impression, not stating this is fact). And no, that does not put 100% of the blame on Newbill, but I certainly have no intention of putting 100% of the blame on Buzz either.
-
Whoever knows the 100% truth behind this situation, please speak up. Otherwise. . .this is fruitless.
-
8) DJ found that there were people like Chico's who 'were into MU bball' and begged to be let go.
Touche salesman.
I wonder how many recruits MU has lost/ or turned off because of Scoop? -not speaking specifically to any folks here but come on. These recruits have google, and if their being recruited by a D1 school, they have to have some kind of ego. they wanna know what people are saying about them. I wouldnt blame em if they get pissed off for reading all of this type stuff
-
I wonder how many recruits MU has lost/ or turned off because of Scoop? -not speaking specifically to any folks here but come on. These recruits have google, and if their being recruited by a D1 school, they have to have some kind of ego. they wanna know what people are saying about them. I wouldnt blame em if they get pissed off for reading all of this type stuff
Maybe that's why Buzz frequently gets guys we haven't heard of - we have't had a chance to bash them yet. lol
Seriously though, I get your point, but if recruits only go to schools where message boards are all nicey-nicey, then they'd only commit to low-majors that don't have a good following, or heavily used message baords.
Fanatics post the darndest crap regardless of what school they root for. This isn't a Marquette exclusive behavior.
I'm not condoning bashing past/present/potential recruits - in fact I'd usually discourage it - I'm just saying that it likely makes up a small part, or no part of most recruits decision.
-
I'm not saying Newbill was lying, I agree 100% with what copious said and couldn't have said it better myself, I'm just trying to point out that you seem to think recruits will be scared away by a message board calling a former recruit a liar, which many of us haven't done, and your posts seem to say Newbill's camp is telling the truth and acknowledge we've heard MU's side through IWB, so that would seem to imply that you believe Buzz is lying. My point was that if insets a potential recruit I'd be more concerned about the head coach being called a liar than a former recruit that was overrecruited.
-
I'm not saying Newbill was lying, I agree 100% with what copious said and couldn't have said it better myself, I'm just trying to point out that you seem to think recruits will be scared away by a message board calling a former recruit a liar, which many of us haven't done, and your posts seem to say Newbill's camp is telling the truth and acknowledge we've heard MU's side through IWB, so that would seem to imply that you believe Buzz is lying. My point was that if insets a potential recruit I'd be more concerned about the head coach being called a liar than a former recruit that was overrecruited.
Why does it have to be an either / or situation? Why does one party have to be lying? DJ may very well believe that he had an uconditional offer yanked away from him and MU may think that the circumstances of DJ's recruitment were clear to all parties.
This may very likely be a case of poor communication and/or poor judgement.
-
Whoever knows the 100% truth behind this situation, please speak up. Otherwise. . .this is fruitless.
I don't think there is a person on this planet that knows the "100% truth." MU and Newbill have different versions of the truth that they seem to believe 100%.
That said, what more facts do we need to have an opinion or make a judgement? We have a player that was offered a scholarship and later had that offer rescinded. The player claims he was unaware of any conditions on said offer and he quickly signed with another D1 program.
Ultimately, we all belong to one of three basic groups.
1. Think MU should honor all NLI's except in extreme cases, i.e. discipline, academics.
2. Have no problem with oversigning and pulling offers if better options are available.
3. Have no problem with oversigning and pulling offers as long as the recruits are fully aware of the situation and won't bash MU.
If you belong to group 1, you clearly have a problem with what happened. If you belong to group 2, you don't have a problem with what happened. If you belong to group 3, you have a slight problem with what happened because the recruit is making a stink.
Now, what additional facts do we need to find out that would change any of the above? Newbill is a flesh eating Zombie? Newbill tried to sexually assault Mo Acker during his official visit?
-
I'm not saying Newbill was lying, I agree 100% with what copious said and couldn't have said it better myself, I'm just trying to point out that you seem to think recruits will be scared away by a message board calling a former recruit a liar, which many of us haven't done, and your posts seem to say Newbill's camp is telling the truth and acknowledge we've heard MU's side through IWB, so that would seem to imply that you believe Buzz is lying. My point was that if insets a potential recruit I'd be more concerned about the head coach being called a liar than a former recruit that was overrecruited.
It's more than just that (message board chatter), it's unseemly to me that as grown adults we're out there calling an 18 year old kid, his parents, his coaches, liars. Saying it's all B.S., it's all on them, etc. You can't have it both ways. People here are screaming up and down that no one knows all the facts yet 10 seconds later some of these same people they flat out call the Newbill camp liars. Uhm, ok. How can they make that pronouncement when all the facts aren't there? Sure seems they are trying to have it both ways.
If people want to make opinions on it, fine, that's what this is all about. But calling these people liars is wrong IMO.
Do we lose recruits because of message boards? Who knows, but we know Vander Blue and others have cited chatter on message boards before as a turnoff. Other recruits time and again have said they read message boards. There are plenty of articles out there supporting this. Therefore, it seems to me that calling out kids as liars isn't very productive.
-
It's more than just that (message board chatter), it's unseemly to me that as grown adults we're out there calling an 18 year old kid, his parents, his coaches, liars. Saying it's all B.S., it's all on them, etc. You can't have it both ways. People here are screaming up and down that no one knows all the facts yet 10 seconds later some of these same people they flat out call the Newbill camp liars. Uhm, ok. How can they make that pronouncement when all the facts aren't there? Sure seems they are trying to have it both ways.
If people want to make opinions on it, fine, that's what this is all about. But calling these people liars is wrong IMO.
Do we lose recruits because of message boards? Who knows, but we know Vander Blue and others have cited chatter on message boards before as a turnoff. Other recruits time and again have said they read message boards. There are plenty of articles out there supporting this. Therefore, it seems to me that calling out kids as liars isn't very productive.
Lets face it, no one knows the real story about DJ because MU will not present it's side. Plenty of specuation, no official facts. I think it is time to move on.
Secondly, as far as message boards are concerned, ours is tame compared to many. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over anonymous postings is nuts. boards are by their nature full of nonsense and excess sprinkled with occassional facts. folks come here to post their feelings and opinions. I highly douby our board is any better or worse than others. If recruits are offended, then they will be just as offended on many other boards. This is the world we live in now. Any recruit who takes anything serious here probably needs to grow a thicker skin. In fact, stay away.
-
As a georgetown fan who frequents here, Ijust wanted to throw it out there that none of the Georgetown boys ever heard anything about recruiting much less offering Newbill.
That being said it's possible we did because JTIII has signed surprise recruits no one knew about until it was announced they were signed, for instance Jerrelle Benimon and Aaron Bowen ( of course you guys know all about him).
Sorry I can't be of more help, but Georgetown recruiting is very secretive, (Hoya Paranoia is still alive and well)
-
As a georgetown fan who frequents here, Ijust wanted to throw it out there that none of the Georgetown boys ever heard anything about recruiting much less offering Newbill.
That being said it's possible we did because JTIII has signed surprise recruits no one knew about until it was announced they were signed, for instance Jerrelle Benimon and Aaron Bowen ( of course you guys know all about him).
Sorry I can't be of more help, but Georgetown recruiting is very secretive, (Hoya Paranoia is still alive and well)
It must be that it was kept secret otherwise you'd be calling the kid a liar and Chico's would have to scold you.
-
It's more than just that (message board chatter), it's unseemly to me that as grown adults we're out there calling an 18 year old kid, his parents, his coaches, liars. Saying it's all B.S., it's all on them, etc. You can't have it both ways. People here are screaming up and down that no one knows all the facts yet 10 seconds later some of these same people they flat out call the Newbill camp liars. Uhm, ok. How can they make that pronouncement when all the facts aren't there? Sure seems they are trying to have it both ways.
I think the vast majority of us are not calling DJ a liar, just simply stating that his story could be off for many reasons. We have heard enough from both sides to make either side look good or bad. I don't think we'll ever know the truth, and your only solution seems to be to honor all NLI's, which is a complete joke as there is obviously exceptions to every rule. You certainly defended TC for not honoring NLI's.
-
It must be that it was kept secret otherwise you'd be calling the kid a liar and Chico's would have to scold you.
But they aren't calling kids liars, unlike posters here...thus the difference. I'm sure they would find it unseemly as well.
-
I think the vast majority of us are not calling DJ a liar, just simply stating that his story could be off for many reasons. We have heard enough from both sides to make either side look good or bad. I don't think we'll ever know the truth, and your only solution seems to be to honor all NLI's, which is a complete joke as there is obviously exceptions to every rule. You certainly defended TC for not honoring NLI's.
Jesus H, and I've said there are exceptions and even outlined them several times. READ!
1) Kid gets in trouble with the law in a serious way
2) Kid fails to gain admittance to the university.
Neither was the situation in this case....he had the grades, had the test scores, not in trouble with the law.
As far as I know, the ONLY NLI that Crean didn't honor was a kid that had 1 & 2 above as a problem. Nevertheless, he was going to have to not admit someone anyway because he oversigned. It was wrong then and it's sure as hell wrong now.
And yes, the vast majority hasn't called him, his family, his coaches liars, but way too many have and that's pathetic.
-
Jesus H, and I've said there are exceptions and even outlined them several times. READ!
1) Kid gets in trouble with the law in a serious way
2) Kid fails to gain admittance to the university.
Neither was the situation in this case....he had the grades, had the test scores, not in trouble with the law.
As far as I know, the ONLY NLI that Crean didn't honor was a kid that had 1 & 2 above as a problem. Nevertheless, he was going to have to not admit someone anyway because he oversigned. It was wrong then and it's sure as hell wrong now.
And yes, the vast majority hasn't called him, his family, his coaches liars, but way too many have and that's pathetic.
Hmmm...there seems to be a problem with point #2 with this kid...?
-
Jesus H, and I've said there are exceptions and even outlined them several times. READ!
Neither was the situation in this case....he had the grades, had the test scores, not in trouble with the law.
I'm not Jesus, sorry.
Anyhow, you don't know that your 1 or 2 (or both) did not happen. It's my hope that Buzz is just as likely to relase the kid for a good reason and not make that reason public, as he is to release him because he simply over-recruited. That being said, I'm not trashing Buzz (like you did) unless he explains why he did what he did. How do you know DJ didn't do something unethical that set Buzz off? I don't think it needs to involve a citation to justify being released? How do you know he wasn't told to get his paperwork in, but was putting it off and talking with other teams? How do you know his coach wasn't fired for mishandling this situation? Like I've said, it's unlikely but possible. So you seem to want to call out those who call DJ's camp liars, yet you want to attack Buzz without knowing the truth either. When you say people can't have it both ways, it seems like you really want to have it both ways as well. In other words, you don't feel posters should attack DJ's camp without knowing all the facts (or they should just believe every word they say), yet you want to attack Buzz and staff without knowing all the facts. You don't have to be Jesus to know that's a$$ backwards.
-
He was NOT denied admission to the university, so that clears number 2. In fact, he could not have been because his application wasn't sent in yet. He had the necessary test scores and grades, better in both areas than MANY players we have admitted in years past. Admission was not an issue.
As for #1, are you suggesting he was busted for some felony and awaiting trial? Please. Stop, really, just stop.
You guys make this entirely too difficult and it's not difficult....follow the timelines of when a Wilson transfer became plausible (I didn't say POSSIBLE, I said PLAUSIBLE). Start there and things come into focus quite clearly.
We didn't have to accept this kids NLI in April because the Wilson transfer was in the works long before that.
Poorly played by MU, that's the frustrating part.
-
Please. Stop, really, just stop.
I sure wish you would.
-
He was NOT denied admission to the university, so that clears number 2. In fact, he could not have been because his application wasn't sent in yet. Nice of you to point out that he didn't apply for school in a timely manner.
As for #1, are you suggesting he was busted for some felony and awaiting trial? Please. Stop, really, just stop. What kind of loser are you? The only thing I said is it's possible he did something unethical that set Buzz off, and absolutely nothing about a felony.
You guys make this entirely too difficult and it's not difficult....follow the timelines of when a Wilson transfer became plausible (I didn't say POSSIBLE, I said PLAUSIBLE). Start there and things come into focus quite clearly. Correct. Makes it look fishy. I'm not denying that.
-
He was NOT denied admission to the university, so that clears number 2. In fact, he could not have been because his application wasn't sent in yet. He had the necessary test scores and grades, better in both areas than MANY players we have admitted in years past. Admission was not an issue.
As for #1, are you suggesting he was busted for some felony and awaiting trial? Please. Stop, really, just stop.
You guys make this entirely too difficult and it's not difficult....follow the timelines of when a Wilson transfer became plausible (I didn't say POSSIBLE, I said PLAUSIBLE). Start there and things come into focus quite clearly.
We didn't have to accept this kids NLI in April because the Wilson transfer was in the works long before that.
Poorly played by MU, that's the frustrating part.
You're right he was not denied admission, but to quote your earlier post, he DID FAIL TO GAIN ADMISSION. If you don't turn in an application, surely you can't gain admission. Nice of you to change the wording to better suit your point in your second post.
-
Dude, you're full of assumptions, which isn't helping figure anything out.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html
"Through a culmination of several things, we have decided to give D.J. Newbill his release," Williams said. "D.J.'s a great kid, he comes from a great family who we have established relationships with, and we're going to do everything we can to help him in his future, in whatever capacity that would be."
So according to Buzz, Newbill was released, so he can't go to another BEast school.
I fail to see how I am full of assumptions. Yes, he was granted his release, however, he also never enrolled at the school, so come Sept 1 or whenever school starts at MU the NLI will become null and void.
-
Whoever knows the 100% truth behind this situation, please speak up. Otherwise. . .this is fruitless.
Chicos knows all. Just ask him.
-
Personally, I think this whole thing was a result of poor communication. In my opinion, it went down like this...
-Buzz wasn't sure about Wilson's status but he didn't want to lose out on Newbill so he signed him.
-Buzz discussed prep school with DJ's camp (not DJ) but wasn't particularly clear about how very real a possibility it was.
-DJ's camp only claimed to be open to the prep school route because they didn't view it as a very realistic possibility. Buzz had a feeling they weren't completely sold but didn't want to press the issue because they told him what he wanted to hear.
-DJ's camp got wind of the Wilson recruitment but didn't keep DJ in the loop because they took the calculated risk that it wouldn't go down like it did. They did this partly to protect DJ from feeling unwanted if he did end up at MU and partly as a CYA move to make sure MU came out looking like the bad guy as opposed to them looking like bumbling coaches who misled their own recruit.
-Buzz didn't press Newbill on getting his application in because that was his own CYA move and an acceptable "out" if Wilson signed and DJ decided against prep school.
-When it looked like Wilson was headed to MU, PhillyCoach (who was not actively involved in the recruiting process) did his part by all of a sudden appearing on this board talking up Newbill and laying the groundwork to help make Buzz the guy who pulled the rug out from under his unsuspecting recruit.
-Wilson signed with MU and Newbill was let go.
-Newbill was blindsided because he was kept primarily out of the loop by both sides.
-Buzz believed the application "out" would be better received.
-MU gets their man in Wilson and will be better off.
-Newbill signs with So Miss where he'll be better off.
-
It's more than just that (message board chatter), it's unseemly to me that as grown adults we're out there calling an 18 year old kid, his parents, his coaches, liars. Saying it's all B.S., it's all on them, etc. You can't have it both ways. People here are screaming up and down that no one knows all the facts yet 10 seconds later some of these same people they flat out call the Newbill camp liars. Uhm, ok. How can they make that pronouncement when all the facts aren't there? Sure seems they are trying to have it both ways.
If people want to make opinions on it, fine, that's what this is all about. But calling these people liars is wrong IMO.
Do we lose recruits because of message boards? Who knows, but we know Vander Blue and others have cited chatter on message boards before as a turnoff. Other recruits time and again have said they read message boards. There are plenty of articles out there supporting this. Therefore, it seems to me that calling out kids as liars isn't very productive.
Your posting on this topic is exhibit A as to why I at times have difficulty engaging you in discussion. Saying that people who disagree with you are unseemly children who are "screaming up and down" about things is hyperbolic at best and the mark of someone just looking for a fight.
Regarding DJ's coach, parents and DJ himself:
1. His "coach" is actually his ex-coach who supposedly has been out of the "loop" for some time. He claims to have been fired from his position by his principal because he was too successful and his pricipal was jealous of him. Perhaps you find this sort of "kool aid" to your liking. I don't. I don't know whether he lying or delusional but I certainly would question his ability to understand and process information that comes his way.
2. I don't know of anything DJ's folks have said on the subject. But parents hurt when their kids hurt. I've got no problem with them if they're angry.
3.DJ has said very little (actually avoiding questions and breaking promises to return phone calls). I'm not painting him with a broad brush and saying he's a liar or a bad person. But I do suspect his self reported offers from WVU, FSU, and Georgetown may involve more than a little wishful thinking (or exaggerrated info from those in his camp). I find it very hard to believe that a player coveted by the Big East and ACC couldn't do better with a local mid major (LaSalle) than an offer to redshirt.
On the subject of the program and its future, I find your comments ironic. Calling those who accept MU's version of this unfortunate situation "kool-aid drinkers" is tantamount to calling Buzz Williams a liar. What could possibly be more damaging to the program than having its own "fans" publically question the character and veracity of its leader?
-
Like I said, you guys are sure gullible.
-
Like I said, you guys are sure gullible.
Why's that. Because you think it was as simple as Jamil Wilson wanted in so Dj Newbill was asked to leave? Because you're going to believe every word phillycoach said despite the fact that he admitted tof away from DJ's recruitment for a year? Because maybe back in your day it was OK to send in your application 3 days before you moved into your school (something Newbill's camp admitted to), but nowadays you have to apply to your school over 3 MONTHS before you gain admittance into the school?
You're right, we're the gullible ones.
-
Why's that. Because you think it was as simple as Jamil Wilson wanted in so Dj Newbill was asked to leave? Because you're going to believe every word phillycoach said despite the fact that he admitted tof away from DJ's recruitment for a year? Because maybe back in your day it was OK to send in your application 3 days before you moved into your school (something Newbill's camp admitted to), but nowadays you have to apply to your school over 3 MONTHS before you gain admittance into the school?
You're right, we're the gullible ones.
I think AT was referring to Chico's hat-in-hand "apology and promise to not do it again" post of a week or so ago. He is of course promptly reneged on that promise.
-
I think AT was referring to Chico's hat-in-hand "apology and promise to not do it again" post of a week or so ago. He is of course promptly reneged on that promise.
Oh my bad. Makes sense. I kind of skipped over that apology thread.
-
Because maybe back in your day it was OK to send in your application 3 days before you moved into your school (something Newbill's camp admitted to), but nowadays you have to apply to your school over 3 MONTHS before you gain admittance into the school?
There are always exceptions to those rules. When did Wilson's application get turned in? As far as I know, he is going to attend MU in the fall.
I wasn't a scholarship athlete at MU but was recruited to a program at the school that got my application accepted in June.
-
I think AT was referring to Chico's hat-in-hand "apology and promise to not do it again" post of a week or so ago. He is of course promptly reneged on that promise.
I did....why don't you go back and read that thread and what I apologized for (Jucos and the conversation about Jucos was what I apologized for). Then you can come back here and apologize yourself for claiming in reneged on that promise. We'll be waiting. ::)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21172.0
-
I did....why don't you go back and read that thread and what I apologized for (Jucos and the conversation about Jucos was what I apologized for). Then you can come back here and apologize yourself for claiming in reneged on that promise. We'll be waiting. ::)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21172.0
you got me. I misremembered what your original apology was about.
-
Your posting on this topic is exhibit A as to why I at times have difficulty engaging you in discussion. Saying that people who disagree with you are unseemly children who are "screaming up and down" about things is hyperbolic at best and the mark of someone just looking for a fight.
Regarding DJ's coach, parents and DJ himself:
1. His "coach" is actually his ex-coach who supposedly has been out of the "loop" for some time. He claims to have been fired from his position by his principal because he was too successful and his pricipal was jealous of him. Perhaps you find this sort of "kool aid" to your liking. I don't. I don't know whether he lying or delusional but I certainly would question his ability to understand and process information that comes his way.
2. I don't know of anything DJ's folks have said on the subject. But parents hurt when their kids hurt. I've got no problem with them if they're angry.
3.DJ has said very little (actually avoiding questions and breaking promises to return phone calls). I'm not painting him with a broad brush and saying he's a liar or a bad person. But I do suspect his self reported offers from WVU, FSU, and Georgetown may involve more than a little wishful thinking (or exaggerrated info from those in his camp). I find it very hard to believe that a player coveted by the Big East and ACC couldn't do better with a local mid major (LaSalle) than an offer to redshirt.
On the subject of the program and its future, I find your comments ironic. Calling those who accept MU's version of this unfortunate situation "kool-aid drinkers" is tantamount to calling Buzz Williams a liar. What could possibly be more damaging to the program than having its own "fans" publically question the character and veracity of its leader?
No, that's not what I said....no wonder why you have trouble engaging with me and others because you can't comprehend the most basic levels of reading comprehension.
What is UNSEEMLY is grown adults calling an 18 year old kid a liar, calling his parents liars, calling his coaches liars. Not agreeing with me is not what I said was unseemly, it was the action of calling these people liars. COMPRENDO?
His coach, is not JUST his ex-coach. BOTH of his coaches were included in comments in various articles...his EX-COACH (which you reference) but ALSO his AAU coach. You're only focusing on ONE coach, the ex-coach, to cast dispersions on the kid. Why aren't you including the comments of his AAU coach? COMPRENDO?
Ironic? Please. I've said multiple times, I am not calling Buzz Williams a liar (unlike some posters here who have FLAT OUT called Newbill and his camp Liars). In my opinion, we have an issue of very poor communication between his staff and the Newbill camp. Go back to the earliest videos of this kid, and it's clear as day that what they thought is not what the MU camp thought. I don't call that lying, I call that very poor communication. Is that Monarch? Is that Buzz? Is that Newbill? Probably all of the above, but let's be clear that consistently (going to the press releases, the videos, the interviews) one side most certainly never thought he was going to Prep school. Consistently that is the case in February, in April, in June. Nothing changed in their comments from that side of the camp, consistent for 5 months.
What troubles me in all this are the time lines. Some of you guys might want to dig a bit deeper into when Wilson's transfer rumblings started (it was a hell of a lot earlier than May of 2010).
-
you got me. I misremembered what your original apology was about.
Yes, you did. And you almost apologized. ::)
Maybe you were too busy chuckling about Canadian Dimes terrible execution trying to blast someone and not even get the right decade in his attempt. Dimes is the guy that retells the joke only to screw it up so bad with the details that he has to end it with ..."I guess you had to be there"
-
Yes, you did. And you almost apologized. ::)
Maybe you were too busy chuckling about Canadian Dimes terrible execution trying to blast someone and not even get the right decade in his attempt. Dimes is the guy that retells the joke only to screw it up so bad with the details that he has to end it with ..."I guess you had to be there"
How the heck would I know when you worked in the MU athletic department and therefore know that the timing in his joke was off? Who cares about that besides you?
I found it amusing and still do...so sue me.
-
Sad to see that some here call B.S. or continue to call the kid, his parents and coaches liars. That will certainly reflect well with other recruits visiting the board. ::)
If 'reflecting well with ofther recruits visiting the board' was formost in the mind of every poster here, a lot would change what they say. You my friend, would be high on that list, just fanning flames.
You've summed up your position: buzz (and coaches in general) should honor their commitments and learn from mistakes. Just put it in your sig and be done with it.
-
No, that's not what I said....no wonder why you have trouble engaging with me and others because you can't comprehend the most basic levels of reading comprehension.
What is UNSEEMLY is grown adults calling an 18 year old kid a liar, calling his parents liars, calling his coaches liars. Not agreeing with me is not what I said was unseemly, it was the action of calling these people liars. COMPRENDO?
His coach, is not JUST his ex-coach. BOTH of his coaches were included in comments in various articles...his EX-COACH (which you reference) but ALSO his AAU coach. You're only focusing on ONE coach, the ex-coach, to cast dispersions on the kid. Why aren't you including the comments of his AAU coach? COMPRENDO?
Ironic? Please. I've said multiple times, I am not calling Buzz Williams a liar (unlike some posters here who have FLAT OUT called Newbill and his camp Liars). In my opinion, we have an issue of very poor communication between his staff and the Newbill camp. Go back to the earliest videos of this kid, and it's clear as day that what they thought is not what the MU camp thought. I don't call that lying, I call that very poor communication. Is that Monarch? Is that Buzz? Is that Newbill? Probably all of the above, but let's be clear that consistently (going to the press releases, the videos, the interviews) one side most certainly never thought he was going to Prep school. Consistently that is the case in February, in April, in June. Nothing changed in their comments from that side of the camp, consistent for 5 months.
What troubles me in all this are the time lines. Some of you guys might want to dig a bit deeper into when Wilson's transfer rumblings started (it was a hell of a lot earlier than May of 2010).
So Buzz Williams tells IWB what happened. IWB prints it. You say anyone who believes what Buzz Williams said (through IWB) is a kool-aid drinker. I use my storied reading comprehension skills to conclude that you in essence just called Buzz Williams a liar without using those exact words. In addition, you've accused Buzz (again the hyperbole) of ruining DJ Newbill's life. That will certainly help recruiting. COMPRENDO?
-
-Buzz discussed prep school with DJ's camp (not DJ) but wasn't particularly clear about how very real a possibility it was.
Why do people keep bringing up the possibility of a "prep school deal"?
If you honestly believe that Buzz made an additional verbal agreement with Newbill that called for Newbill to attend prep school at MU's option, then by definition you have to believe that Buzz of violated the terms of the NLI.
The NLI is clear on two points--
--There can be no additions or deletions to the NLI language.
--Any other agreements that might have existed--verbal or otherwise--are voided when the NLI is signed.
I know you're only trying to come up with a plausible explanation, but do we really have to continue to accuse Buzz of a rules violation to make it seem like Newbilll was more at fault?
-
Why do people keep bringing up the possibility of a "prep school deal"?
If you honestly believe that Buzz made an additional verbal agreement with Newbill that called for Newbill to attend prep school at MU's option, then by definition you have to believe that Buzz of violated the terms of the NLI.
The NLI is clear on two points--
--There can be no additions or deletions to the NLI language.
--Any other agreements that might have existed--verbal or otherwise--are voided when the NLI is signed.
I know you're only trying to come up with a plausible explanation, but do we really have to continue to accuse Buzz of a rules violation to make it seem like Newbilll was more at fault?
It continues to be brought up because Buzz stated that one of the recruits was going to a prep school. Why would he say that publicly if he did not believe it to be fact?Perhaps DJ's camp brought up the idea of prep school to Buzz and he gave it his blessing assuming it was going to happen when, in fact, it wasn't finalized. Perhaps DJ's camp agreed to send him to prep school and then backed out. Perhaps Buzz said "Screw the NLI. Send him to prep school or we'll cut him." We don't know so I'm taking a guess. In no way am I accusing Buzz of rules violations.
Personally, I think that Newbill, himself, is the least at fault in all of this. I think the communication between MU's coaches and Newbill and the communication between Newbill's HS/AAU coaches and Newbill was very poor and that there were some behind the scenes conversations taking place that he wasn't fully aware of.
-
The plain reality is that this Newbill situation created three distinct groups and one extreme minority group.
(1) One group will lay all the blame at Newbill's feet and refuse to accept any blame attributable to Buzz or MU.
(2) The second group will call for Buzz's head, citing his unconscionable acts as evidence that he is not representing MU in the right manner.
(3) The third group, and hopefully the majority group, will simply say that they will never know what happened, and furthermore, that they don't need to know what happened to know that the appearance of impropriety is enough to make it not sit well. This final group will acknowledge that it takes two to tango, and that at the very least, Buzz put himself in a position where he was vulnerable to accusations. The only hope of this group is, that regardless of who's at blame, that Buzzs learn from the situation and hopefully does not find himself in it again.
(4) I fall in the fourth group, which is admittedly the extreme minority group. My group blames the whole Newbill mess on Trevor Mbakwe.
What complete nonsense! Of course, Trevor intended to be in the middle of Newbill's recruitment, but then, expectedly, he failed to show up.
-
It continues to be brought up because Buzz stated that one of the recruits was going to a prep school. Why would he say that publicly if he did not believe it to be fact?
Buzz also stated that the player knew who he was.
If that player were Newbill, then it doesn't fit with other public statements from either side:
--MU's statement that Newbill "will arrive on campus this summer"
--Newbill's statement that he was never asked to attend prep school.
So far, most of the speculation here is that Newbill is lying--there was a verbal agreement that he would attend prep school for a year.
Of course, those same people seem to be oblivious to the fact that such a verbal agreement is prohibited.
-
Some calendar time went by between the time when MU said he would be here this summer, and when Buzz said someone would not be here this fall and that person knew who he was. So your argument isn't valid.
-
the time between those two events isn't relevant.
what is relevant is the standing of the situation when MU accepted DJ's LOI. plus that time doesn't change the likelihood that Jamil Wilson's sudden availability is what spurred the alleged prep school talk.
not trying to get involved, but lets at least keep our logical conclusions straight.
-
Wrong - Buzz said way back that someone was not going to be here this fall, and that person knew all about it. He also said he was still recruiting for the fall semester. So far, everyone else is here. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, you can surmise that it was Newbill he was talking about. Therefore, this whole timeline with Newbill/Wilson is just conjecture.
-
Barring any unforeseen circumstances, you can surmise that it was Newbill he was talking about. Therefore, this whole timeline with Newbill/Wilson is just conjecture.
nice.
So you are trying to say that Buzz took DJ's commitment without any talk of prep school by either side (hence the release that he would be here in the fall).
THEN Buzz and DJ subsequently agreed on prep school even though it hadn't been brought up in the initial recruitment.
THEN Newbill got released because he changed his mind on prep school?
The whole point of the timelines up to this point is that the prep school thing (except in the above situation i suppose) doesn't jive with DJ knowing he was destined for prep school because either:
A) He wouldn't have signed destined for prep school because the release wouldn't have then said he would be here in the fall and
B) Those that have been reluctant (in some cases, to say the least) to let MU go in this whole thing don't feel that railroading someone to prep school if that wasn't part of their initial signing agreement is any better than cutting them altogether.
-
A) He wouldn't have signed destined for prep school because the release wouldn't have then said he would be here in the fall and
People are reading way too much into MU's press release saying he'd be here in the fall, it's just the usual complimentary stuff they put out for all recruits. What are they supposed to say? "MU is happy to sign Newbill, but he might have to spend a year in prep school working on his game before he gets here."
-
Whobill?
-
Whobill?
Post of the year nominee!
-
People are reading way too much into MU's press release saying he'd be here in the fall, it's just the usual complimentary stuff they put out for all recruits. What are they supposed to say? "MU is happy to sign Newbill, but he might have to spend a year in prep school working on his game before he gets here."
I was going to say this same thing. The press release was likely pulled from a template and slapped together. Do all of the other recruit's releases have the same or similar verbage?
So far, most of the speculation here is that Newbill is lying--there was a verbal agreement that he would attend prep school for a year.
As I stated previously in my timeline (based on my opinion, by the way), I'm not sure that Newbill was completely filled in as to what was really going on. He may have never known that prep school was being discussed for him because neither Buzz nor DJ's camp clearly passed that message along.
Who do you think Buzz was referring to when he mentioned that a recruit was headed to prep school? As Buzz might say, I don't mean that in a condescending way. I'm actually curious as to what posters think could be the explanation for that comment.
-
MM - thats actually a really great point and I think reflects a lot of the likely accuracy in your timeline. If Buzz didn't mean that DJ was going to prep school, who else? In all likelihood he did mean DJ, which makes the "and he knows it" part curious. I think this highlights the miscommunication on both sides.
For DJ, its likely that he really didn't know about this or at least didn't think there was any substantive likelihood that it would happen.
For Buzz, it seems to reflect or acknowledge that he sensed something was not quite kosher with the whole situation, kind of a "perhaps the lady doth protest too much" situation. (NOT TRYING TO SAY BUZZ LIED, merely that he had his suspicions that not everyone was on the same page)
Of course this doesn't solve whether or not people think that the whole situation is kosher given the above (were it true) but I'm sick of debating that anyway. I'm all about full scale speculation and coming to our own Scoop consensus now.
-
One thing everyone does know is that Buzz said the person knew all about it and was on board with it - proof on video. Newbill says he didn't know - no proof there that he was or wasn't told. Just whether or not you believe him. If Newbill truly didn't know it was him, then wasn't he curious about who it was when hearing Buzz's remarks? Would he not talk to the other recruits to find out who it is? It's been discussed how the recruits were talking between each other about various things. Was Newbill completely left out of the loop with all other recruits? Didn't know anything about the Pro-Am from any of the coaches or other players? No application in? No registration for 2nd summer session classes? Completely in the dark about all of this?
Everyone else appears to be ready to start school soon, so it sure seems he should have known Buzz was talking about him, even if he didn't know. Any interest in digging into it should have told him something. As soon as Buzz said it, there was talk all over these boards that it was him or Reggie. Doesn't read any of these boards also?
-
People are reading way too much into MU's press release saying he'd be here in the fall, it's just the usual complimentary stuff they put out for all recruits. What are they supposed to say? "MU is happy to sign Newbill, but he might have to spend a year in prep school working on his game before he gets here."
They couldn't put that quote out, as it would be a public admission of cheating--the NLI plainly prohibits you from signing player a year in advance with the intent of storing them in prep school until you're ready.
As I stated previously in my timeline (based on my opinion, by the way), I'm not sure that Newbill was completely filled in as to what was really going on. He may have never known that prep school was being discussed for him because neither Buzz nor DJ's camp clearly passed that message along.
I don't understand how MU could discuss this for Newbill without breaking the rules. The NLI does not provide the school a "prep-school option year" for signed players.
Who do you think Buzz was referring to when he mentioned that a recruit was headed to prep school? As Buzz might say, I don't mean that in a condescending way. I'm actually curious as to what posters think could be the explanation for that comment.
I took it to mean one of the players hadn't academically qualified.
-
They couldn't put that quote out, as it would be a public admission of cheating--the NLI plainly prohibits you from signing player a year in advance with the intent of storing them in prep school until you're ready.
I don't understand how MU could discuss this for Newbill without breaking the rules. The NLI does not provide the school a "prep-school option year" for signed players.
I took it to mean one of the players hadn't academically qualified.
We get it. It's against the rules. How many people bend the rules in recruiting? Maybe it was discussed and Newbill's camp agreed to it knowing that Buzz couldn't change the writing of the NLi, and then when it happened they said thy had no ideasi ce they knew Buxz couldn't say he was going to have to go to prep school for a year based on the rules. Just because there's a rule against changing the writing on a NLI doesn't mean outside agreements aren't sometimes made.
Would you agree that Buzz said somebody was going to have to go to prep school (as someone poured out, there's video evidence of it)? Would you agree that everyone but Jae Croeder is on campus and in the Pro-Am and Jae will be here after he finishes his summer classes to graduate JUCO? Who else, then, do you think Buzz was talking about?
If Buzz was saying somebody was going to prep school because he would be ineligible because of grades and the kid knew it, then why would Buzz accept his NLI? As you said, you cNt signs a kid and then jeep him in prep school for a year, so it does t matter what reason the person went to prep school, it's, as you've brought up over and o Ed...and over...and over, against the rules
-
One thing everyone does know is that Buzz said the person knew all about it and was on board with it - proof on video. Newbill says he didn't know - no proof there that he was or wasn't told. Just whether or not you believe him.
I'm not going to get drawn into the underlying debate, but I'm really trying to understand how Buzz saying something on video is proof that what he says is true, but Newbill saying something is not proof that what he says is true. Either one (or both of them) could by lying.
Maybe I misunderstood your post.
-
I'm not going to get drawn into the underlying debate, but I'm really trying to understand how Buzz saying something on video is proof that what he says is true, but Newbill saying something is not proof that what he says is true. Either one (or both of them) could by lying.
Maybe I misunderstood your post.
I was going to ask the same question, you beat me to it. Apparently if it's on video it's gospel?
http://www.youtube.com/v/YSDAXGXGiEw
LOL....and that goes for both sides (Newbill or Buzz).
-
All I'm saying is that Buzz was recorded on video (I think it was early spring) saying that at least one of the incoming recruits was not going to be here in the fall, that the person knew all about it, and that he was still recruiting for the fall. I would be shocked if all of the incoming recruits did not see and hear that. As such, you would think that they would all be talking to each other to see who he was referencing if they didn't already know.
What's up for debate is whether Buzz discussed this all with Newbill, and who you believe. IMO, what I do find hard to believe is that he knew nothing about what was going on (no MU application, no 2nd session summer school registration, no Pro-Am knowledge, evidently no discussion with other incoming recruits, no discussion with coaches, rumors on the boards that he or Reggie were headed to prep throughout the spring) right up to the time that he is ready to move to Milwaukee.
-
So Buzz Williams tells IWB what happened. IWB prints it. You say anyone who believes what Buzz Williams said (through IWB) is a kool-aid drinker. I use my storied reading comprehension skills to conclude that you in essence just called Buzz Williams a liar without using those exact words. In addition, you've accused Buzz (again the hyperbole) of ruining DJ Newbill's life. That will certainly help recruiting. COMPRENDO?
Lenny, this is the third time now where you've accused me of saying the dropping of this kid would ruin his life. Can you please bring up the post that I said that and the ENTIRE post for some context. I can't find it. I may have said it, but since I'm oft accused here of saying things I didn't and then have to prove people wrong, like yesterday, I'd appreciate that courtesy. I definitely said it affects the lives of these people, but I need help where I said his life would be ruined like you continue to imply I said.
Is it this one? http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20919.msg221230#msg221230
Or this one? http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20923.msg221298#msg221298
Give me that courtesy so I can respond in full context. Thanks.
As far as Buzz and IWB, I have no reason not to believe either one and have said nothing different of the sort. So let me ask you this question, was Buzz the one always communicating to Newbill? Sure sounds like from the Newbill camp that it was often Scott Monarch. Now, Lenny, I'm sure you have some employees working for you and often they have to associate with vendors or partners or clients, do you know everything that is said to them? Are you in every one of those calls? Does it ever happen where a subordinate miscommunicates to a vendor or party on your behalf? Can any of these things happen to MU basketball during the recruiting process?
There is no doubt that somewhere there was a major communications breakdown, whether that was with Newbill, or Buzz (or his staff), or both, who knows. I'll repeat, however, that running around calling the recruit and his family liars seems less than productive and incredibly unseemly. Maybe it's not for you....to each his own. When I say I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid, it means I'm not buying 100% of that side of the story. That doesn't mean I don't believe him, it means there are two sides of the story and the complete truth probably lies somewhere else. You make this an all or nothing proposition...if you don't buy the MU version you believe Buzz is a liar....this, is where your reading comprehension still suffers greatly and your logic even more so.
-
everyone posting in this thread turn off your computer and go enjoy the summer weather while it lasts. This is ridiculous.
-
All I'm saying is that Buzz was recorded on video (I think it was early spring) saying that at least one of the incoming recruits was not going to be here in the fall, that the person knew all about it, and that he was still recruiting for the fall. I would be shocked if all of the incoming recruits did not see and hear that. As such, you would think that they would all be talking to each other to see who he was referencing if they didn't already know.
What's up for debate is whether Buzz discussed this all with Newbill, and who you believe. IMO, what I do find hard to believe is that he knew nothing about what was going on (no MU application, no 2nd session summer school registration, no Pro-Am knowledge, evidently no discussion with other incoming recruits, no discussion with coaches, rumors on the boards that he or Reggie were headed to prep throughout the spring) right up to the time that he is ready to move to Milwaukee.
Equally, some of us find it hard to believe that a kid would sign a NLI if he had other offers, why would he do that if he was supposed to go to a Prep School? What sane person would do this and limit their options?
Do you have the video, by the way?
-
His list of offers still grows by the day. Now he says Gtown and FSU wanted him. At the time of his commitment on Feb 1, per Scout, "Among the other schools that showed interest in the 6-foot-3 shooting guard were West Virginia, Drexel, Nebraska, LaSalle, Niagra, St. Joseph and Temple." No indication of actual offers.
I believe the video was on MU's website showing one of Buzz's interviews from the banquet or a speech at a dinner function. A little searching would find it. It started the rumors all over the boards on who wasn't going to be around in the fall.
-
It just might be that Buzz thought someone else was going to have to go to prep school. However, in the end that person ended up qualifying. He could have been recruiting Wilson as a replacement for that person. But by the time Wilson was released the player who Buzz thought would have to go to prep school no longer had to. Then with all the other freshmen on campus and Newbill not even having submitted his required papers resulted in Newbill being dropped. This is specualtion like everything else. I just do not think you can automatically assume that Newbill was the one Buzz was talking about. There was some rumors about Smith having to go to prep. It would make more sense that Buzz would sign another guard (Newbill), if he thought one of his guards were not going to qualify. Also when Newbill committed it was stated that he would have no problem qualifying.
-
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20490.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20427.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20512.0
In this one, another thread (Davante Gardner) is referenced where Boone and Golden Avalanche say there sources say Newbill is going to prep, but Brad Forster denies it.
So, much discussion of one of our recruits going the prep school route, no smoking video.
-
(http://coreygilmore.com/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
-
Equally, some of us find it hard to believe that a kid would sign a NLI if he had other offers, why would he do that if he was supposed to go to a Prep School? What sane person would do this and limit their options?
Maybe a kid that wanted to be at a certain school and/or conference that was telling him they couldn't promise it requested the NLI - he didn't want to be the guy without an NLI because people would say, 'why didn't you sign like most people do'? So the school, with a kind heart, said, 'fine, we'll sign an NLI with you, but it's still subject to a number of things....'. It's a binding contract, pending admission... so one way around it is to not submit application papers.. which happened. If admitted, there is no way around it. By contract, could MU really have 'cut him'? No. There are many possibilities here - I don't know them, but you like to think you do.
Go celebrate Peter Jurkin and stop dwelling on this.
-
I was going to ask the same question, you beat me to it. Apparently if it's on video it's gospel?
http://www.youtube.com/v/YSDAXGXGiEw
LOL....and that goes for both sides (Newbill or Buzz).
Says the man who has taken Newbill's word as the truth in forming his opinions...
-
His list of offers still grows by the day. Now he says Gtown and FSU wanted him. At the time of his commitment on Feb 1, per Scout, "Among the other schools that showed interest in the 6-foot-3 shooting guard were West Virginia, Drexel, Nebraska, LaSalle, Niagra, St. Joseph and Temple." No indication of actual offers.
I believe the video was on MU's website showing one of Buzz's interviews from the banquet or a speech at a dinner function. A little searching would find it. It started the rumors all over the boards on who wasn't going to be around in the fall.
So just so I have this correct, is he making up these offers? I'm just asking, not accusing. Incidentally, some of the sites did say OFFERS.
A repost from a few weeks ago...
---------------
Rosiak said offered
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/83911602.html
http://dev.www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/90887964.html?page=4
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html
Rivals (click on the SHOW ALL TAB) http://rivals.yahoo.com/marquette/basketball/recruiting/player-D.J.-Newbill-107573
http://www.recruitrecon.com/index.php?option=com_recruit&task=showplayerprofile&sportid=1&id=238
Then we have IWB, who I think is very well connected and does his homework, writing on February 2nd that the people that know him best are his coaches (Law and Waiters). He dedicates most of the column to those two coaches....for which we had people here going crazy with love and high fives...only now these two coaches are persona non grata.
http://marquette.scout.com/2/943278.html
-
Go celebrate Peter Jurkin and stop dwelling on this.
I'd rather celebrate MU recruits than IU recruits. I didn't start this thread, just so you know, so feel free to pound on others.
But Rocky will be paying off his bet to me after next year, that I can pretty much guarantee. Crean will be there longer than this year so that will be the easiest bet I've collected in quite some time.
Sad day for IU community in general. The plane crash in Alaska that claimed the lives of five, including former Senator Ted Stevens, also claimed the life of the father of an IU football player. His brother, was also on the plane but survived the crash along with O'Keefe (former NASA head) and his son.
-
Says the man who has taken Newbill's word as the truth in forming his opinions...
Maybe you missed the quote under the video....applies to both sides. :o Maybe you were too busy fishing to notice it.
-
I'd rather celebrate MU recruits. I didn't start this thread, just so you know.
Ahh, so only the person who starts the thread counts. Got it.
Why are you dwelling on this topic so heavily? Are you trying to teach everyone a lesson? I can't imagine how many months of repetitious posts you must have had when our last coach left despite his contract through,... what, 2017? I'm sure there were excuses there.
There are so many possibilities with this 'issue'. If you think you know the facts, please let me know - your wannabe righteous talk is of no interest.
-
Nothing to do with being righteous, but doing what is right...as in MU should do what is right in these cases. I, alone, do not hold that view but rather many do. If you want to single one person out, that's fine, it's your dime.
There are many possibilities with this issue, which I've said many times. The answer is somewhere, likely, in the middle. All I've said is I'm not going to buy the MU version as if it's gospel and I certainly am not going to dismiss this kid, his family, etc as liars. For doing that, for having the AUDACITY of considering both sides, well that makes me (based on comments from others here):
1) Guilty of calling Buzz a liar
2) Guilty of only believing the Newbill camp
3) Not a fan of Marquette basketball
etc, etc
It's all or nothing with some of you people.
-
Nothing to do with being righteous, but doing what is right...as in MU should do what is right in these cases. I, alone, do not hold that view but rather many do. If you want to single one person out, that's fine, it's your dime.
There are many possibilities with this issue, which I've said many times. The answer is somewhere, likely, in the middle. All I've said is I'm not going to buy the MU version as if it's gospel and I certainly am not going to dismiss this kid, his family, etc as liars. For doing that, for having the AUDACITY of considering both sides, well that makes me (based on comments from others here):
1) Guilty of calling Buzz a liar
2) Guilty of only believing the Newbill camp
3) Not a fan of Marquette basketball
etc, etc
It's all or nothing with some of you people.
My questions included:
Why are you dwelling on this topic so heavily?
Are you trying to each everyone a lesson?
...and I asked if you think you know the facts, to let me know what they are.
Your reply didn't help to answer any of those. You suggested that you have no clue what the facts are, which only begs an answer to the first question even more.
-
Nothing to do with being righteous, but doing what is right...as in MU should do what is right in these cases. I, alone, do not hold that view but rather many do. If you want to single one person out, that's fine, it's your dime.
"Do what is right" based on what? YOUR opinion?
Comments like that are why so many posters take exception to what you write. You act like your words are fact and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong or ignorant or misinformed, etc. Some people think that MU "did what is right" by signing a better player, thus improving the program. Are those people wrong because they don't agree with your definition of what's right?
-
My questions included:
Why are you dwelling on this topic so heavily?
Are you trying to each everyone a lesson?
...and I asked if you think you know the facts, to let me know what they are.
Your reply didn't help to answer any of those. You suggested that you have no clue what the facts are, which only begs an answer to the first question even more.
I asked pretty much these same questions to Chicos on a different thread a while back. He didn't answer then either.
-
I asked pretty much these same questions to Chicos on a different thread a while back. He didn't answer then either.
It's strange how someone can preach on and on (and on and on and on) about MU doing something that is not right.. yet they don't know any facts about what MU did or didn't do.
-
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0FrhFXxdUvoe6M:http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/jimsteele1020/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg&t=1)
-
Maybe you missed the quote under the video....applies to both sides.
Didn't miss it at all, just pointing out how funny I thought it was to see that come from you, after you seem to take DJ and his camp at their word, and have used their comments to support your arguments.
:o Maybe you were too busy fishing to notice it.
I love fishing, thanks for taking interest in my hobbies :o
-
Ahh, so only the person who starts the thread counts. Got it.
Why are you dwelling on this topic so heavily? Are you trying to teach everyone a lesson? I can't imagine how many months of repetitious posts you must have had when our last coach left despite his contract through,... what, 2017? I'm sure there were excuses there.
There are so many possibilities with this 'issue'. If you think you know the facts, please let me know - your wannabe righteous talk is of no interest.
Speaking of facts, were you aware that the last coach also had a buyout in the contract? Its sort of like your mortgage--you're allowed to move before the full 30 year term has passed.
As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally.
So here's your Hobson's choice:
--Newbill lied (there WAS a prep school agreement), which means that Buzz is a cheat for making such a deal.
--Newbill was truthful (there was no deal), which means Buzz a douche for running Newbill off the team.
Pick your poison.
-
As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally.
So what your saying is when Buzz announced that one MU player would be going the Prep school route he violated NCAA rules?
-
Speaking of facts, were you aware that the last coach also had a buyout in the contract? Its sort of like your mortgage--you're allowed to move before the full 30 year term has passed. As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally.
So here's your Hobson's choice:
--Newbill lied (there WAS a prep school agreement), which means that Buzz is a cheat for making such a deal.
--Newbill was truthful (there was no deal), which means Buzz a douche for running Newbill off the team.Pick your poison.
How about this: you, just like everyone else here, has NO IDEA about the facts of what happeneed. So stop trying to sound badass. Get off your high horse and move on from your weird obsession with Buzz breaking the riles. You have NO CLUE what happened, don't pretend you do.
Your beloved Tanned Tommy was the douche you and chicos can grab a bear and fantasize about his greatness.
The ONLY facts we have is that we have a STUD in Jamil Wilson and DJ Newbill is at Southern Miss. Also, according to DJ's camp, DJ had not applied to Marquette 3 (THREE) DAYS(!) before he was scheduled to moe into Marquette. How do you explain that? Or is that normal to you?
I think the real problem you and chicos have with Buzz is that he is taking the programmtomheights that the Saint Tan Tommy Crean couldn't take the program. Hence why you two argue for 7+ pages trying to convince EVERYBODY ELSE that Buzz is terribly at fault when you have absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation!
But please explain the rules to us again. You haven't done that 85 times in this thread alone despite the fact that it's irreligant because...you guessed it, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! STOP PRETENDING YOU DO!
Did I mention, JAMIL WILSON IS A STUD!
-
My questions included:
Why are you dwelling on this topic so heavily?
Are you trying to each everyone a lesson?
...and I asked if you think you know the facts, to let me know what they are.
Your reply didn't help to answer any of those. You suggested that you have no clue what the facts are, which only begs an answer to the first question even more.
Why are you asking just me the question? Why did Ners start this topic? Why did Rosiak ask the question? Why is this thread 7 pages long if no one cared about and only I, as you insinuate, am dwelling on the topic so heavily?
Second, the topic at hand has put MU in a bad light, that's why it's worth talking about and why so many MU people care about it. They don't like MU being put in a bad light.
-
"Do what is right" based on what? YOUR opinion?
Comments like that are why so many posters take exception to what you write. You act like your words are fact and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong or ignorant or misinformed, etc. Some people think that MU "did what is right" by signing a better player, thus improving the program. Are those people wrong because they don't agree with your definition of what's right?
Yes, my opinion. You accept an offer, you honor it. And it's not just MY opinion but those of many people. MM, if it was such an open and shut case, this thread wouldn't be as long as it is, there wouldn't be articles on ESPN, Philadelphia papers, etc about it. These types of decisions and actions are controversial by their very nature. You throw in a He Said He Said twist, a transfer, a kid having a commitment and then not having one, well it becomes news. People then make opinions about news.
And yes, unfortunately some people think that doing what is right is dumping a player and signing a better one.....you're right, some people do believe that. That's a sad commentary.
-
Yes, my opinion. You accept an offer, you honor it. And it's not just MY opinion but those of many people. MM, if it was such an open and shut case, this thread wouldn't be as long as it is, there wouldn't be articles on ESPN, Philadelphia papers, etc about it. These types of decisions and actions are controversial by their very nature. You throw in a He Said He Said twist, a transfer, a kid having a commitment and then not having one, well it becomes news. People then make opinions about news.
And yes, unfortunately some people think that doing what is right is dumping a player and signing a better one.....you're right, some people do believe that. That's a sad commentary.
I think the problem we have here is that nobody cares that you think the situation is wrong because you don't know what happened, yet you say MU should do what is right based on tour opinion. LOL :)). SoCal lifestyle at it's finest.
Anyways, do you KNOW MU just dumped a kid in lesser to add a better player? Because I don't think anybody truly knows that. Mainly because I don't THINK that was the case.
-
I think the real problem you and chicos have with Buzz is that he is taking the programmtomheights that the Saint Tan Tommy Crean couldn't take the program. Hence why you two argue for 7+ pages trying to convince EVERYBODY ELSE that Buzz is terribly at fault when you have absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation!
No, I'm arguing that calling this kid a liar is wrong...I'm arguing when accepting a NLI you should honor it....yet I've yet to see you go after those people that have done that, despite them "having absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation." Hypocritical, don't you think? Well, yes, extremely hypocritical on every level, but not surprising.
Yes, I'm glad Jamil Wilson is a stud, looking forward to him playing for UM, it's just too bad a kid got his commitment dropped in the process because a prettier girl showed up. As I said earlier, you want the facts....start with the real timeline of this whole thing, and that doesn't mean just looking at Newbill but looking at Wilson a well. That's what makes this whole thing unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
-
No, I'm arguing that calling this kid a liar is wrong...I'm arguing when accepting a NLI you should honor it....yet I've yet to see you go after those people that have done that, despite them "having absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation." Hypocritical, don't you think? Well, yes, extremely hypocritical on every level, but not surprising.
Yes, I'm glad Jamil Wilson is a stud, looking forward to him playing for UM, it's just too bad a kid got his commitment dropped in the process because a prettier girl showed up. As I said earlier, you want the facts....start with the real timeline of this whole thing, and that doesn't mean just looking at Newbill but looking at Wilson a well. That's what makes this whole thing unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
I'm with Chicos on this matter until any statement to the contrary comes forward. Cura Personalis it ain't.
-
it's just too bad a kid got his commitment dropped in the process because a prettier girl showed up. As I said earlier, you want the facts....start with the real timeline of this whole thing, and that doesn't mean just looking at Newbill but looking at Wilson a well. That's what makes this whole thing unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
This is what I cannot stand about the stuff you're spewing. I would agree the timeline and knowledge we have makes this situation reflect poorly on Buzz, but how do you get off by stating a timeline is all you need prove that Buzz ditched this kid for a prettier girl. I could look at a timeline of DJ's high school coach getting fired, rumors of DJ shopping for other schools, Buzz stating that one MU recruit would go the prep route, DJ not getting his paperwork in and create a compelling argument that DJ's side was at least partially at fault in this. The only difference is when I look at both sides of the story, I don't claim one to be fact and one to be fiction because I (and you) haven't the slightest of clues. If you can convince people that a timeline is enough evidence to clearly show Buzz is at fault in this you should be a lawyer.
-
Why the obsession with Jamil Wilson calling it the University of Marquette (UM)? What is the insinuation supposed to be? Be honest. There are so many instances of people referring to Notre Dame University or University of Kansas or Kentucky University. Do all those people get called out in the same condescending fashion? To continually mock a young person for a simple mistake is ridiculous. And it completely undermines the argument at hand because it comes off as small and petty. ....my two cents.
-
Yes, my opinion. You accept an offer, you honor it. And it's not just MY opinion but those of many people. MM, if it was such an open and shut case, this thread wouldn't be as long as it is, there wouldn't be articles on ESPN, Philadelphia papers, etc about it. These types of decisions and actions are controversial by their very nature. You throw in a He Said He Said twist, a transfer, a kid having a commitment and then not having one, well it becomes news. People then make opinions about news.
And yes, unfortunately some people think that doing what is right is dumping a player and signing a better one.....you're right, some people do believe that. That's a sad commentary.
I agree. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
We all have the same amount of information and we can all draw our own conclusions and form our own opinions based off of that information. It becomes an issue when you constantly post that your opinion is right and those who disagree with you are wrong, or that it's "a sad commentary" when people believe something contrary to what you believe on this issue. You clearly don't respect what other people have to say. Personally, I have no problem with you believing that Buzz and MU are completely in the wrong here. That's fine. I do have a problem with you telling me and everyone on this board that we should share that opinion.
Sidenote: What guy hasn't ditched a girl for a more attractive option at some point in his dating life?
-
No, I'm arguing that calling this kid a liar is wrong...I'm arguing when accepting a NLI you should honor it....yet I've yet to see you go after those people that have done that, despite them "having absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation." Hypocritical, don't you think? Well, yes, extremely hypocritical on every level, but not surprising.
Yes, I'm glad Jamil Wilson is a stud, looking forward to him playing for UM, it's just too bad a kid got his commitment dropped in the process because a prettier girl showed up. As I said earlier, you want the facts....start with the real timeline of this whole thing, and that doesn't mean just looking at Newbill but looking at Wilson a well. That's what makes this whole thing unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
You harp on people calling Newbill "a liar" and then you toss in that little gem.
That was douchy.
-
......
-
So we're not done with this topic yet?
Maybe we can better spend our time arguing about whether Tom Crean is the devil or not.
Or about how awesome it was when we were the Warriors.
-
i think we should make a separate thread where people can b!tch about how some of us are still talking about this. that way they can all empathize there, while people still interested in hashing this out can do it here.
Just so I have all my ducks in a row, what scenarios exist (presuming that DJ academically qualified, which hasn't really been disputed) where Buzz would not have broken any recruiting rules and the way things went down would have been completely in accordance with NCAA rules?
-
i think we should make a separate thread where people can b!tch about how some of us are still talking about this. that way they can all empathize there, while people still interested in hashing this out can do it here.
Just so I have all my ducks in a row, what scenarios exist (presuming that DJ academically qualified, which hasn't really been disputed) where Buzz would not have broken any recruiting rules and the way things went down would have been completely in accordance with NCAA rules?
Good idea on the separate thread!
One scenario: Buzz could have called DJ and said, "We found a better player than you so we need you to ask for your release so we can sign him instead."
-
i think we should make a separate thread where people can b!tch about how some of us are still talking about this. that way they can all empathize there, while people still interested in hashing this out can do it here.
Just so I have all my ducks in a row, what scenarios exist (presuming that DJ academically qualified, which hasn't really been disputed) where Buzz would not have broken any recruiting rules and the way things went down would have been completely in accordance with NCAA rules?
Why don't you figure this part out?
I'll be on the other thread b!tching.
-
Man, has this gotten tedious.
-
Why the obsession with Jamil Wilson calling it the University of Marquette (UM)? What is the insinuation supposed to be? Be honest. There are so many instances of people referring to Notre Dame University or University of Kansas or Kentucky University. Do all those people get called out in the same condescending fashion? To continually mock a young person for a simple mistake is ridiculous. And it completely undermines the argument at hand because it comes off as small and petty. ....my two cents.
University of Kansas actually is correct. The KU abbreviation as a Big 12 thing and even appears in the schools website: www.ku.edu (http://www.ku.edu) Weird.
-
No, I'm arguing that calling this kid a liar is wrong...I'm arguing when accepting a NLI you should honor it....yet I've yet to see you go after those people that have done that, despite them "having absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation." Hypocritical, don't you think? Well, yes, extremely hypocritical on every level, but not surprising.
Yes, I'm glad Jamil Wilson is a stud, looking forward to him playing for UM, it's just too bad a kid got his commitment dropped in the process because a prettier girl showed up. As I said earlier, you want the facts....start with the real timeline of this whole thing, and that doesn't mean just looking at Newbill but looking at Wilson a well. That's what makes this whole thing unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
Why don't I call out those that think Buzz isn't at fault? Because they usually state that they don't know what happened but in their opinion it probably went something like... When you talk you say things like "Yes in my opinion" when someone asks you whose opinion MU should base what is right on. It's an absolute joke and sums up how you post. You post as if you know absolutely everything and what you say is right and whoever disagrees with you is "a child" when in fact you act like the child. It's like you never moved past the phase of life where you are the center of the world. You just never realized that people form differing opinions and you aren't always right. It's okay to be wrong or to let people have their own opinions without thinking of them as a "child." You have yet to realize that, and you make it very well known.
There is a big difference between HOW other people state what they believe and how you go about doing it. So no, me posting against you is not hypocritical.
For example you state that I am blatantally calling Newbill a liar when I say there MAY HAVE BEEN more to it than what he said, so all of a sudden I'm calling him a liar (huh...no) and then you go and say there's more to it than what IWB put out there and when people accuse you of saying Buzz is a liar (what you did to those who said Newbill's story may not be 100% true) it's a mortal sin. It's ridiculous. Get off your high horse.
We get t. You worked in big time college athletic departments. You talk to famous people working in TV. You played college athletics. You are AWESOME. But that doesn't mean what you say on here is the end-all-be-all. And that's why I call you out. And I'm pretty sure 98% of the people on here will agree
-
Fact: Buzz offered Newbill a scholarship
Fact: Newbill signed a NLI
Fact: Buzz stated that an incoming recruit would probably have to go to prep school and that the recruit knew this.
Fact: Newbill's camp stated that he is not going to prep school
Fact: Newbill had not turned in an application or registered for the Pro-Am
Fact: Newbill claims MU asked him to request a release from his NLI
Fact: Newbill asks for the release
Fact: Jamil Wilson transfers to MU
Fact: Newbill signs with another D1 program and appears to be fully qualified academically to enroll and play in the fall
That is a rundown of most of the pertinent facts. Now, based on these facts, we know that MU released a player that they offered a scholarship to and that player appears to have no outstanding academic or disciplinary issues that would have prevented him from attending MU. The only possible facts that could come out to change the situation significantly are some previously undisclosed academic, discipline, or character issues. That would seem highly unlikely given Newbill's signing with Southern Miss.
So, you either think MU should honor all NLIs or you don't. Those that don't could be broken into subsets based on the circumstances they think justify MU not honoring an NLI, but there are still just two general opinions you could have based on the facts.
Those of you that want everyone to refrain from having an opinion or making a judgement on this issue because of a lack of facts are simply muddying the water. Even if Newbill has been lying the entire time, the fact remains that MU offered a scholarship and pulled it. You are either okay with that or you aren't.
-
You were doing fine until: "The only possible facts that could come out to change the situation significantly are some previously undisclosed academic, discipline, or character issues." After that, you are just rambling your opinion which you've done a million times.
-
Why don't I call out those that think Buzz isn't at fault? Because they usually state that they don't know what happened but in their opinion it probably went something like... When you talk you say things like "Yes in my opinion" when someone asks you whose opinion MU should base what is right on. It's an absolute joke and sums up how you post. You post as if you know absolutely everything and what you say is right and whoever disagrees with you is "a child" when in fact you act like the child. It's like you never moved past the phase of life where you are the center of the world. You just never realized that people form differing opinions and you aren't always right. It's okay to be wrong or to let people have their own opinions without thinking of them as a "child." You have yet to realize that, and you make it very well known.
The irony in that paragraph is delicious on so many levels. There are a ton of people that post with the "my way or the highway" approach here, yet you only get their dander up when it's a viewpoint you don't agree with, then it's suddenly childish, self centered, etc. There is a perfect correlation with your above feelings when it has to deal with someone's opinion you disagree with, but when it's someone you agree with you don't say a damn thing. Unfortunately, that's reality and the hypocrisy in your response.
I get plenty of private emails here from people that disagree or agree with me. A number of those that agree with me on this topic have flat out said they aren't participating in the thread (in some cases, this board) because people just trash them left and right. It's not worth it. Me, I don't give a damn if that happens. These are all just opinions.
-
You were doing fine until: "The only possible facts that could come out to change the situation significantly are some previously undisclosed academic, discipline, or character issues." After that, you are just rambling your opinion which you've done a million times.
Yes, I stated my opinion based on a logical interpretation of the facts. It is my opinion that it is unlikely that Newbill has any significant academic, disciplinary, or character issues that would preclude him from attending MU, based on the fact that he has signed on with another D1 program and the fact that MU and Newbill have given us no reason to believe otherwise.
It is my position that we all have enough facts to form an opinion. You apparently disagree. Therefore, I assume you have no opinion on this situation, otherwise you would be forming an opinion based on an assumption about Buzz and/or Newbill.
EDIT: Interesting that when I check your post history I find a lot of opinions on the Newbill situation. Since you don't have all of the facts, how did you form those opinions?
-
I am probably in the silent majority that think:
1) Unles the kid doesn't qualify, or has legal troubles, MU should honor it's NLI
2) In the grand scheme of things, we appear to have landed a better player, so no Big Deal, just try not to do it again.
Is that hypocritical, probably. But it's not like we stopped Newbill from getting a free education (Insert Southern school joke here). And I consider it Kharmic retribution for losing Tyshawn Taylor.
-
I am probably in the silent majority that think:
1) Unles the kid doesn't qualify, or has legal troubles, MU should honor it's NLI
2) In the grand scheme of things, we appear to have landed a better player, so no Big Dealand I'm glad to have him, just try not to do it again.
Is that hypocritical, probably. But it's not like we stopped Newbill from getting a free education (Insert Southern school joke here). And I consider it Kharmic retribution for losing Tyshawn Taylor.
With only a very minor modification, I'm on board with this. I still think it's a bit of a big deal, but not the end of the world. But, I am glad Wilson is on board.
Honestly, I suspect Chico -- everybody's favorite supposed extremist on this topic -- would probably agree with either your or my very non-extreme statement. I'm sure he'll let us know.
-
Fact: Buzz offered Newbill a scholarship
Fact: Newbill signed a NLI
Fact: Buzz stated that an incoming recruit would probably have to go to prep school and that the recruit knew this.
Fact: Newbill's camp stated that he is not going to prep school
Fact: Newbill had not turned in an application or registered for the Pro-Am
Fact: Newbill claims MU asked him to request a release from his NLI
Fact: Newbill asks for the release
Fact: Jamil Wilson transfers to MU
Fact: Newbill signs with another D1 program and appears to be fully qualified academically to enroll and play in the fall
That is a rundown of most of the pertinent facts......
....Even if Newbill has been lying the entire time, the fact remains that MU offered a scholarship and pulled it. You are either okay with that or you aren't.
When somebody says something that you can't verify, that's called hearsay, not fact.
-
When somebody says something that you can't verify, that's called hearsay, not fact.
Yes, but not if someone states something that may be hearsay.
Then THAT is a fact. ;)
-
"It is my position that we all have enough facts to form an opinion. You apparently disagree. Therefore, I assume you have no opinion on this situation, otherwise you would be forming an opinion based on an assumption about Buzz and/or Newbill.
EDIT: Interesting that when I check your post history I find a lot of opinions on the Newbill situation. Since you don't have all of the facts, how did you form those opinions?"
So, first you complain that I don't have an opinion, then you question my opinion. Classic...
I've stated only facts in my posts, and then formed an opinion from those facts. I am not claiming my opinion as fact, in contrast to some others on here.
-
When somebody says something that you can't verify, that's called hearsay, not fact.
Just so we're clear, using this definition (which, technically, is not the definition of hearsay -- not even particularly close), what do we know about this entire situation that is not "hearsay"?
-
When somebody says something that you can't verify, that's called hearsay, not fact.
Actually, hearsay is when one person relays what another person said to them/in their presence, i.e. "Chico's told me Buzz Williams shaves his head to keep his horns from growing too long."
That would be hearsay.
-
When somebody says something that you can't verify, that's called hearsay, not fact.
Didn't Newbill state that MU asked him to request his release? Is that hearsay or someone providing their recollection of the facts? As I stated, Newbill could be blatantly lying and he actually asked for his release without being prompted by MU. In my opinion, that is unlikely but it is possible.
Does anyone from MU dispute DJ's account that he was asked to request his release?
-
So, first you complain that I don't have an opinion, then you question my opinion. Classic...
I didn't complain that you don't have an opinion and I didn't question your opinion.
I assumed you had no opinion based on your response to my post. When I found that you did have an opinion, I wondered sarcastically (sorry no teal) how you could form that opinion without all of the facts.
-
(http://devcentral.f5.com/weblogs/images/devcentral_f5_com/weblogs/Joe/WindowsLiveWriter/PowerShellABCsPisforParameters_9972/Internet_argument_2.jpg)
-
Lenny, this is the third time now where you've accused me of saying the dropping of this kid would ruin his life. Can you please bring up the post that I said that and the ENTIRE post for some context. I can't find it. I may have said it, but since I'm oft accused here of saying things I didn't and then have to prove people wrong, like yesterday, I'd appreciate that courtesy. I definitely said it affects the lives of these people, but I need help where I said his life would be ruined like you continue to imply I said.
Is it this one? http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20919.msg221230#msg221230
Or this one? http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20923.msg221298#msg221298
Give me that courtesy so I can respond in full context. Thanks.
As far as Buzz and IWB, I have no reason not to believe either one and have said nothing different of the sort. So let me ask you this question, was Buzz the one always communicating to Newbill? Sure sounds like from the Newbill camp that it was often Scott Monarch. Now, Lenny, I'm sure you have some employees working for you and often they have to associate with vendors or partners or clients, do you know everything that is said to them? Are you in every one of those calls? Does it ever happen where a subordinate miscommunicates to a vendor or party on your behalf? Can any of these things happen to MU basketball during the recruiting process?
There is no doubt that somewhere there was a major communications breakdown, whether that was with Newbill, or Buzz (or his staff), or both, who knows. I'll repeat, however, that running around calling the recruit and his family liars seems less than productive and incredibly unseemly. Maybe it's not for you....to each his own. When I say I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid, it means I'm not buying 100% of that side of the story. That doesn't mean I don't believe him, it means there are two sides of the story and the complete truth probably lies somewhere else. You make this an all or nothing proposition...if you don't buy the MU version you believe Buzz is a liar....this, is where your reading comprehension still suffers greatly and your logic even more so.
I'm not even sure how to "search" to find all of your posts on this matter(I'm old and not nearly as computer savvy as you). I also don't know if any of your posts have been modified or edited since you first wrote them. I do know that in addition to the examples you cite you also accused Buzz of "crapping on a person's life" (It's a brief post, no real context to it, but I don't know how to link it). I also know that in one of my posts I put "ruining a kid's life" in qoutations. I'm not one to do that unless I'm quoting directly. But in the unlikely event I was paraphrasing rather than quoting you verbatim I apologize.
-
DJ was never admitted/enrolled at MU, right? So is MU required to honor the NLI if he's not a student at MU?
-
No.
-
can someone with more computer savvy bring up the strings , which had to be monumental, that pertained to Crean pulling Damian Saunders NLI out from under him. Would just like to read them as a frame of reference and see how those now showing such outrage acted then.
can anyone help?
-
I have no knowledge that Newbill broke any law. However, the argument that he did not, because he signed with another division one team has no standing. Just look at Diamond Taylor. He got in trouble at UW and left and immediately signed with another team. There are also different educational standards at different Univeristies. However, I do not think his acedemics are in question here. It just is a bad assumption that because Newbill was accepted at another Univeristy that there was no problem with him. There are two odd things about his situation. The first is the fact that his former coach/advisor was actually posting on our sight. I do not know, but I can see this as something that would have bothered Buzz and our compliance people. The other thing is the fact that Newbill never submitted his admission papers. He could not be admitted without doing this, therefore his NLI was not vailid. Buzz seems to be the type of personality that expects you to follow up on your responsibilites, so I am sure the failure to submit his paper work was a red flag to Buzz. Remember Buzz stopped recruiting Wilson, when he failed to show up for midnight madness. It turned out Wilson's volleyball game went into overtime, so he could not make it, but Buzz who had a person waiting for Wilson was upset that Wilson did not call to let the staff know he could not make it. He told Wilson he would no longer recruit him and when Buzz later change his mind and tried to recruit Wilson again he had all ready ruled MU out. I really do not think Newbill was the one that was suppose to go to prep school and that is why he did not know about it. Whoever it was that Buzz thought was going to prep school, acutally ended up qualifying. They are two different situations
-
So what your saying is when Buzz announced that one MU player would be going the Prep school route he violated NCAA rules?
It would really depend on the reason Buzz announced that an MU player would be going to Prep school.
A player may not qualify under NCAA guidelines and attend a prep school--not a violation
A player can decide on his own to go to prep school--not a violation
A player might not be admitted to the university--not a violation
A player may request a release from his NLI--not a violation.
However, if Buzz announced a player was going the prep route because of an additional condition on the NLI or because of some side deal with that player, it would be a violation.
-
I'm not even sure how to "search" to find all of your posts on this matter(I'm old and not nearly as computer savvy as you). I also don't know if any of your posts have been modified or edited since you first wrote them. I do know that in addition to the examples you cite you also accused Buzz of "crapping on a person's life" (It's a brief post, no real context to it, but I don't know how to link it). I also know that in one of my posts I put "ruining a kid's life" in qoutations. I'm not one to do that unless I'm quoting directly. But in the unlikely event I was paraphrasing rather than quoting you verbatim I apologize.
I'm happy to provide a lesson. Go up to the field to the upper right of the page next to where it says "search". To get a more advanced search, click on the hour glass. The easiest thing to do is just type in the word "ruin" and my name for the username. It will come up with all the threads that I've participated in that the word "ruin" was used...doesn't mean I used it, means someone did. When I did the search, I could not find anywhere that I said it. I did find those two threads that I posted for you, which state that his life is affected. I don't think you would disagree his life is affected, but I find that far different than "ruined".
I may have said it, but the search Gods don't seem to be able to find it, but if I did, I'd like to see the full context.
-
With only a very minor modification, I'm on board with this. I still think it's a bit of a big deal, but not the end of the world. But, I am glad Wilson is on board.
Honestly, I suspect Chico -- everybody's favorite supposed extremist on this topic -- would probably agree with either your or my very non-extreme statement. I'm sure he'll let us know.
Yes, that would be my position but with one important distinction.
1) Unless the kid doesn't qualify, or has legal troubles, MU should honor it's NLI
2) In the grand scheme of things, we appear to have landed a better player, and I'm glad to have him, just try notdo NOT to do it again.
-
It would really depend on the reason Buzz announced that an MU player would be going to Prep school.
A player may not qualify under NCAA guidelines and attend a prep school--not a violation
A player can decide on his own to go to prep school--not a violation
A player might not be admitted to the university--not a violation
A player may request a release from his NLI--not a violation.
However, if Buzz announced a player was going the prep route because of an additional condition on the NLI or because of some side deal with that player, it would be a violation.
Cite?
-
can someone with more computer savvy bring up the strings , which had to be monumental, that pertained to Crean pulling Damian Saunders NLI out from under him. Would just like to read them as a frame of reference and see how those now showing such outrage acted then.
can anyone help?
Robert, they've been provided already, in several threads related to Newbill.
-
I really do not think Newbill was the one that was suppose to go to prep school and that is why he did not know about it. Whoever it was that Buzz thought was going to prep school, actually ended up qualifying. They are two different situations
This theory has been presented to me by an "insider" on several occasions, that Buzz did intend to send a recruit to Prep school but that person was not Newbill which is why Newbill and his family were so caught off guard.
I don't know if it's true.....this would also qualify as hearsay.
-
Hence why you two argue for 7+ pages trying to convince EVERYBODY ELSE that Buzz is terribly at fault when you have absolutely 0 knowledge of the situation!
The real problem is that you and others are spending 7+ pages trying to defend Buzz by accusing him of cheating.
To summarize what I hear you and others saying: "Oh, no, Buzz isn't the bad guy in this. Newbill just didn't understand the secret illegal deal that Buzz made with him to send him to Prep School."
-
Just so we're clear, using this definition (which, technically, is not the definition of hearsay -- not even particularly close), what do we know about this entire situation that is not "hearsay"?
Great... here come the MU Law grads.
Actually, hearsay - when not used in the legal sense - is a synonym of "rumor." So technically, my definition is correct, because that's all that's being discussed here: rumors, speculation and the like.
I'm sorry... I just don't buy the argument that the facts are in and the debate is over based on a few self-serving statements made by the Newbill camp and MU coaching staff.
-
The real problem is that you and others are spending 7+ pages trying to defend Buzz by accusing him of cheating.
To summarize what I hear you and others saying: "Oh, no, Buzz isn't the bad guy in this. Newbill just didn't understand the secret illegal deal that Buzz made with him to send him to Prep School."
You've stated multiple times in this thread that any side deal between MU and Newbill would be an NCAA violation, illegal, cheating and other words to that effect, yet - far as I can tell - have not provided any citation/link to back up that claim.
I hope you're searching for that feverishly right now.
While you're at it, please explain for us why Memphis was not punished for cutting side deals with several recruits, including Xavier Henry and Derrick Rose, that agreed to let them out of the NLIs if John Calipari bolted. And why didn't the NCAA - recognizing the clear violation that you say such an agreement would be - enforce the NLIs and require Henry to attend Memphis? Or are you suggesting that Memphis flaunted NCAA rules, and the NCAA chose to do nothing about it?
Inquiring minds, at least mine, want to know.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/14290603
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-03-30-calipari-recruits_N.htm
-
There are a lot of assumptions, conclusions and accusations about what actually happen in the Newbill situation. Obviously Buzz is not commenting on this. I think this is the right thing to do no matter what actually happen. What do you guys think? Should Buzz say something publically and explain what actually happened?
-
Is MU Law still a tier 3 school?
-
You've stated multiple times in this thread that any side deal between MU and Newbill would be an NCAA violation, illegal, cheating and other words to that effect, yet - far as I can tell - have not provided any citation/link to back up that claim.
I hope you're searching for that feverishly right now.
While you're at it, please explain for us why Memphis was not punished for cutting side deals with several recruits, including Xavier Henry and Derrick Rose, that agreed to let them out of the NLIs if John Calipari bolted. And why didn't the NCAA - recognizing the clear violation that you say such an agreement would be - enforce the NLIs and require Henry to attend Memphis? Or are you suggesting that Memphis flaunted NCAA rules, and the NCAA chose to do nothing about it?
Inquiring minds, at least mine, want to know.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/14290603
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-03-30-calipari-recruits_N.htm
I actually agree with most of the other stuff you have said in this thread Pakuni, but the NCAA actually made the "no side deals" provision up because of the Calipari Memphis deals he was making.
-
You've stated multiple times in this thread that any side deal between MU and Newbill would be an NCAA violation, illegal, cheating and other words to that effect, yet - far as I can tell - have not provided any citation/link to back up that claim.
I hope you're searching for that feverishly right now.
While you're at it, please explain for us why Memphis was not punished for cutting side deals with several recruits, including Xavier Henry and Derrick Rose, that agreed to let them out of the NLIs if John Calipari bolted. And why didn't the NCAA - recognizing the clear violation that you say such an agreement would be - enforce the NLIs and require Henry to attend Memphis? Or are you suggesting that Memphis flaunted NCAA rules, and the NCAA chose to do nothing about it?
Inquiring minds, at least mine, want to know.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/14290603
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-03-30-calipari-recruits_N.htm
Calipari? Memphis?
Seriously?
Maybe you should "fervently research" the so-called "Calipari rule." I'm sure you'll find enough to more than fill your inquiring mind.
-
I actually agree with most of the other stuff you have said in this thread Pakuni, but the NCAA actually made the "no side deals" provision up because of the Calipari Memphis deals he was making.
You are correct.
My mistake. (Tucks tail, flees thread).
-
1) Unless the kid doesn't qualify, or has legal troubles, MU should honor it's NLI
Doesn't he have to be enrolled/admitted to MU to warrant the university honoring the NLI?
-
Is MU Law still a tier 3 school?
I believe that they share offices and classroom space with the dental hygiene program.
-
Doesn't he have to be enrolled/admitted to MU to warrant the university honoring the NLI?
Correct....and school starts in late August, not July when he was ousted.
Let's put it another way, if the athlete in question was a 5 star player and hadn't turned in his application yet, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The rigidity of rules is often directly correlated to the talent level of person (this goes for business, sports, etc). This is why guys with great talent often get 2nd and 3rd chances while the 3rd string punter or offensive tackle is cut with no exceptions to "send a message".
-
Wow is inane thread has gone on for 9 pages maybe by posting this I can get it to 10 ::)
I'm curious why it's an inane thread if half the posters in this thread are advocating that what Buzz did is ok, despite it being against NCAA rules? That doesn't mean Buzz did it, but it's revealing as hell in terms of what some posters think is permissible or not.
Ziggy......sigh.
-
Athletes are able to apply for admission long after the application deadline has passed for all other students.
-
This horse is dead. Why are we continuing to beat it? It will change nothing, it will not help the program and the continued, extended, public, criticism could well hurt the program. This has become a stage for certain party(s) to thump their chest and proclaim how much more compassionate, understanding and morally better they are than their others and has become redundant, pointless and BORING. And all this without anyone really knowing ALL the details. Forward.
-
Correct....and school starts in late August, not July when he was ousted.
Let's put it another way, if the athlete in question was a 5 star player and hadn't turned in his application yet, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The rigidity of rules is often directly correlated to the talent level of person (this goes for business, sports, etc). This is why guys with great talent often get 2nd and 3rd chances while the 3rd string punter or offensive tackle is cut with no exceptions to "send a message".
True enough. Remember the controversy when Jesus "ousted" 2 star apostle Judas but forgave 5 star recruit Peter for his betrayls? Pete even got the Captain's job. Life just aint fair.
-
True enough. Remember the controversy when Jesus "ousted" 2 star apostle Judas but forgave 5 star recruit Peter for his betrayls? Pete even got the Captain's job. Life just aint fair.
Fair or not, Peter was made the captain because only a rabbit could lead the team to victory.
-
I may have said it, but the search Gods don't seem to be able to find it, but if I did, I'd like to see the full context.
Here's exactly what I see you said about his life. I'll go ahead an add the emphasis....
You get real. On June 30th, what college options are available to him that were available to him back in March? Few, if any. This is a person's life. If this was your son or daughter, you would be pissed as hell. It doesn't matter if the kid can go play somewhere else, his options have been curtailed seriously at this point. Does he now have to go somewhere he didn't really want to go? Does he have to sit out a year? Etc, etc. Those are life decisions and LIFE AFFECTING. Sorry you can't see the obvious and make it sound like he can just pick up the phone and get added to a DI team on July 1st, less two months before school starts and after almost all scholarships around the country are GONE!
SO DJ's life was severely affected, and it was highly unlikely he'd get a Div 1 scholarship. Thank God he got one, otherwise you probably would have proclaimed MU ruined his life!
I want Buzz to make the program better, without crapping on a person's life in the process. Sorry, that's just how I am.
Yes, technically = crapping on a life is only threatening if the crap is bigger than the person, I guess.
However, the implication here is that Marquette took a S#1t on his life. Does that mean his life is s#1t? If life is S#it, does that mean it's ruined?
No doubt you'll claim people are reading too much into your words (what? were we supposed to take them literally! OMG!)
Chicos, you need to open you eyes to how people perceive the things you say. You may be very careful about avoiding certain phrases, but you also certainly imply much more than you say.
-
The real problem is that you and others are spending 7+ pages trying to defend Buzz by accusing him of cheating.
To summarize what I hear you and others saying: "Oh, no, Buzz isn't the bad guy in this. Newbill just didn't understand the secret illegal deal that Buzz made with him to send him to Prep School."
I'd like to see the rule myself. Please post where you got that information from. I'd be interested to see if there's interpretation or a past precedence involved. Buzz had been talking about a player going to prep school route for a long time publicly...seems odd that he would do so if against NCAA rules. According to your post where you stated, "As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally." it would then be illegal for a kid to sign a NLI and say to a coach if I don't qualify I'd like to go to prep school and then see you in a year? I'd think the Butler and Fulce situation might be similar as well?
Many of us are saying that we don't know the whole truth, so we are reserving judgement. I've said all along it seems like Buzz pulled a bad move, but I'm not going to publicly bash him without all the facts, and based on assumptions.
-
I'd like to see the rule myself. Please post where you got that information from. I'd be interested to see if there's interpretation or a past precedence involved. Buzz had been talking about a player going to prep school route for a long time publicly...seems odd that he would do so if against NCAA rules. According to your post where you stated, "As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally." it would then be illegal for a kid to sign a NLI and say to a coach if I don't qualify I'd like to go to prep school and then see you in a year? I'd think the Butler and Fulce situation might be similar as well?
Many of us are saying that we don't know the whole truth, so we are reserving judgement. I've said all along it seems like Buzz pulled a bad move, but I'm not going to publicly bash him without all the facts, and based on assumptions.
If he was cheating the NCAA would be snooping around. There is no indication of that going on. The only question is whether Buzz did something immoral. I personally think NLI's should be honored, unless there is a good reason not to. Right now we really do not know the reason this happen. Some believe Newbill was just sold out for a better player, if that is the case than I have a problem with it. I do think it is odd that Newbill did not submit his paper work and that is a red flag to me.
-
If he was cheating the NCAA would be snooping around. There is no indication of that going on. The only question is whether Buzz did something immoral. I personally think NLI's should be honored, unless there is a good reason not to. Right now we really do not know the reason this happen. Some believe Newbill was just sold out for a better player, if that is the case than I have a problem with it. I do think it is odd that Newbill did not submit his paper work and that is a red flag to me.
Just to play devil's advocate...Why do you have a problem with dropping a player in order to bring in a better player? In other words, why do you have a problem with improving the team?
-
Cura Personalis, no?
-
Just to play devil's advocate...Why do you have a problem with dropping a player in order to bring in a better player? In other words, why do you have a problem with improving the team?
Totally agree! I mean, if you find a prettier girl, you should totally dump the one you are committed to, so you can improve your lot in life. People are just too damn hung up on promises. It's all about improving.
-
I'd like to see the rule myself. Please post where you got that information from. I'd be interested to see if there's interpretation or a past precedence involved.
15 seconds on google and you can find all the information you need. Here's one report (emphasis added):
NCAA says no conditions allowed on letters of intent
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent#ixzz0wUT6BxS8
(http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent#ixzz0wUT6BxS8)
Mike DeCourcy, Sporting News
Thursday, Oct. 1, 2009 - 3:28 p.m. ET
When basketball star Xavier Henry signed a letter of intent last fall to play for the University of Memphis, his agreement included an addendum stating the university would release him from that obligation if John Calipari were no longer the Tigers' coach.
Such deals now out of bounds in college sports.
The National Letter of Intent Policy and Review Committee sent a memo to member schools Thursday announcing that "institutions should be aware they are prohibited from establishing any additional conditions associated with the NLI agreement in advance of a prospective student-athlete signing the NLI."
A copy of the memo was provided to Sporting News by a Division I basketball coach.
The memo declares that if any institution or its employees "offer additional conditions, the prospective student-athletes NLI is subject to being declared null and void along with possible institutional penalties." Susan Peal of the NLI office said possible punishments range from a letter of admonishment to expulsion from the National Letter of Intent program.
The National Letter of Intent program is a voluntary system run by the Collegiate Commissioners Association out of offices at the NCAA in Indianapolis. It was established so prospects can end the recruiting process by making a formal, signed commitment to a university. Schools benefit by gaining some certainty regarding which athletes will be entering their programs.
The concept of an addendum promising an NLI release had become more popular recently, as releases from the letter became easier to obtain. It escalated last year, with top-10 prospect DeMarcus Cousins refusing to sign at UAB because the school would not agree to release him if coach Mike Davis were to leave, and when Henry and guard Nolan Dennis abandoned their signed letters with Memphis after Calipari departed for Kentucky.
The letter of intent includes clauses mandating eligibility penalties for those athletes who do not spend at least one academic year at the school where they sign, but the past decade has seen more players gain releases when circumstances change – such as a coach being fired or taking another job.
The NLI committee's memo said an athlete who wants to be released from a signed letter will need to follow the standard procedures of submitting a request form.
Buzz had been talking about a player going to prep school route for a long time publicly...seems odd that he would do so if against NCAA rules.
I don't care how odd it seems to you, the rule is real.
It is against the rules for the school to make a deal and/or impose an extra condition on a player's NLI. The NLI does not have an option to send a kid to prep school for a year.
I don't know what actually happened with Newbill--but I can say with certainty that if (stressing the word if) Buzz made such a deal with Newbill it would be a violation.
According to your post where you stated, "As for facts, the inconvenient one with the Newbill situation is that it is against the rules to have made any sort of prep school deal--even a private one that is only made verbally." it would then be illegal for a kid to sign a NLI and say to a coach if I don't qualify I'd like to go to prep school and then see you in a year? I'd think the Butler and Fulce situation might be similar as well?
Do you really see no difference between a school making an improper prep-school deal and a kid deciding on his own that he wants to go to to prep school?
Just in case you really are confused by the difference, No, it is not illegal for a kid to sign an NLI, then go to the coach and ask to attend prep school.
Its only illegal for the school to add the condition that "We'll accept your NLI, but only under the condition that you attend prep school for a year if we happen to find a better player."
Many of us are saying that we don't know the whole truth, so we are reserving judgement. I've said all along it seems like Buzz pulled a bad move, but I'm not going to publicly bash him without all the facts, and based on assumptions.
I think it goes beond reserving judgement.
People here have made accusations that Buzz made a side deal with Newbill in order to be consistent with the claim that Newbill deserves blame for reneging on his end.
If anyone wants to believe that Buzz and Newbill had a deal becuase it makes them feel better about the way Newbill's departure was handled, go right ahead.
But don't shoot the messenger for poining out that such a deal is against the rules.
-
Totally agree! I mean, if you find a prettier girl, you should totally dump the one you are committed to, so you can improve your lot in life. People are just too damn hung up on promises. It's all about improving.
If you landed wife who could cost you your job because she doesn't bring as much to the table as another suitor over your maximum 4-year marriage then I'd say, Dump her and find someone better!
You see how that analogy doesn't really hold up? Besides, signing a NLI isn't a sacrament ;)
-
Totally agree! I mean, if you find a prettier girl, you should totally dump the one you are committed to, so you can improve your lot in life. People are just too damn hung up on promises. It's all about improving.
Totally disagree. Anyone who doesn't marry and remain forever faithful to their grade school sweetheart is a hypocrite. Any company that lets an employee go because someone else can do a better job is beyond heartless. Any employee that leaves his/her employer is equal parts selfish and disloyal. And anyone who disagrees with my utopian vision should be shot.
-
The National Letter of Intent program is a voluntary system run by the Collegiate Commissioners Association out of offices at the NCAA in Indianapolis. It was established so prospects can end the recruiting process by making a formal, signed commitment to a university. Schools benefit by gaining some certainty regarding which athletes will be entering their programs.
I don't care how odd it seems to you, the rule is real.
Thanks, I'm too stupid to know how to use Google, or maybe it's because I was looking for an NCAA rule that didn't exist. A voluntary program could get mad at us, and that program is in place to give security to a school but not to a player. By no way is this anything close to cheating, as you clearly accused Buzz of. By saying what Buzz did was "against the rules" is like saying offering to a freshmen is against the rules. There's also no past precedence to show that a verbal agreement between a school and player is against the rule, and the teams who have had written formal agreements have not been penalized. Your cheating comment irked me, and more so now than ever. I'm sure the NCAA will be knocking on MU's door any day now pertaining to this one!
-
Here's exactly what I see you said about his life. I'll go ahead an add the emphasis....
SO DJ's life was severely affected, and it was highly unlikely he'd get a Div 1 scholarship. Thank God he got one, otherwise you probably would have proclaimed MU ruined his life!
Yes, technically = crapping on a life is only threatening if the crap is bigger than the person, I guess.
However, the implication here is that Marquette took a S#1t on his life. Does that mean his life is s#1t? If life is S#it, does that mean it's ruined?
No doubt you'll claim people are reading too much into your words (what? were we supposed to take them literally! OMG!)
Chicos, you need to open you eyes to how people perceive the things you say. You may be very careful about avoiding certain phrases, but you also certainly imply much more than you say.
So in summary, I did not, in fact, say MU ruined his life.
Thanks....that's what I thought.
I'm dealing with facts here, not on what you think my intentions were or how you think I meant something. Words have meanings Rocky, and I'd appreciate it if you and Lenny and others would go by the actual black and white text that I write, not on some bias you carry so you can twist (or invent) words and meanings that aren't there. That would help us all I think. Otherwise myself and anyone else on this board is going to be constantly having to defend things they never said but you or others believe were said through some kind of psychic power. Let's keep it simple, go by what is written. This is not hard.
Most importantly, this decision DID affect his life, like I correctly said. And, it was a sh1tty move, in my opinion (which you are, of course, free to disagree with). One added note, yes he ended up with a DI scholarship, that doesn't mean he ended up with an equivalent one.
-
Like I said, things have changed. I thought vows, promises, deals meant something. (that doesn't mean good people can't get divorced, but simply dumping a good person for another person for essentially no reasons is wrong...don't get married then....oh, and don't offer a NLI...same thing). That's how I was brought up...honor your commitments, your contracts, your vows. I still do handshake deals and honor them to the tee. If extenuating circumstances come up (she's cheating on your ass, your recruit is committing felonies, etc) then that's a different story.
Obviously a lot of people in this country don't anymore, just one of many reasons this country is so fooked.
-
Chicas... just curious. Every time a recruit asks to be released from his NLI after a coach leaves a program, do you condemn it (not even with 14,000 posts with the same b.s. over and over again like you do on here, just briefly in your mind)? It's clear an NLI is an agreement between a student-athlete and an institution... it must upset you. Do you get upset with schools that agree to cancel the contract upon the student-athlete's request?
-
Chicas... just curious. Every time a recruit asks to be released from his NLI after a coach leaves a program, do you condemn it (not even with 14,000 posts with the same b.s. over and over again like you do on here, just briefly in your mind)? It's clear an NLI is an agreement between a student-athlete and an institution... it must upset you. Do you get upset with schools that agree to cancel the contract upon the student-athlete's request?
14,000 posts?
Are you saying a recruit asking out of his NLI when a coach leaves a program is equivalent to a program not honoring a NLI only one month before school starts even though the kid hasn't broken the law, has the proper test scores and grades?
I'm happy to answer your question, but first I need to understand if I'm reading correctly what you are saying. Are you saying those two things are equivalent or comparable?
-
yes he ended up with a DI scholarship, that doesn't mean he ended up with an equivalent one.
How does University of Southern Mississippi rank in Forbes vs. Marquette?
-
yes he ended up with a DI scholarship, that doesn't mean he ended up with an equivalent one.
How does University of Southern Mississippi rank in Forbes vs. Marquette?
Southern Miss 521
MU 330
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/best-colleges-10_Americas-Best-Colleges_State_12.html
-
I'm happy to answer your question, but first I need to understand if I'm reading correctly what you are saying. Are you saying those two things are equivalent or comparable?
Am I saying 'those two things are equivalent or comparable'? Huh? I simply asked you two questions.
Those were:
1) Every time a recruit asks to be released from his NLI after a coach leaves a program, do you condemn it?; and
2) Do you get upset with schools that agree to cancel the contract upon the student-athlete's request?
-
Here's exactly what I see you said about his life. I'll go ahead an add the emphasis....
SO DJ's life was severely affected, and it was highly unlikely he'd get a Div 1 scholarship. Thank God he got one, otherwise you probably would have proclaimed MU ruined his life!
Yes, technically = crapping on a life is only threatening if the crap is bigger than the person, I guess.
However, the implication here is that Marquette took a S#1t on his life. Does that mean his life is s#1t? If life is S#it, does that mean it's ruined?
No doubt you'll claim people are reading too much into your words (what? were we supposed to take them literally! OMG!)
Chicos, you need to open you eyes to how people perceive the things you say. You may be very careful about avoiding certain phrases, but you also certainly imply much more than you say.
Chicos is forever drawing inferences that aren't there - one of his personal favorites is accusing people of calling others Hitler when they voice disagreement or call character into question. But not even logical inferences can be drawn from what he says.
-
Thanks, I'm too stupid to know how to use Google, or maybe it's because I was looking for an NCAA rule that didn't exist. A voluntary program could get mad at us, and that program is in place to give security to a school but not to a player. By no way is this anything close to cheating, as you clearly accused Buzz of. By saying what Buzz did was "against the rules" is like saying offering to a freshmen is against the rules. There's also no past precedence to show that a verbal agreement between a school and player is against the rule, and the teams who have had written formal agreements have not been penalized. Your cheating comment irked me, and more so now than ever. I'm sure the NCAA will be knocking on MU's door any day now pertaining to this one!
I'm curious to know what you would call an intentional disregard for the NLI rules if not cheating?
Say Kentucky continues the practice of offering players side deals to release them from their NLI if Calipari left, would you call that cheating?
-
Chicos is forever drawing inferences that aren't there - one of his personal favorites is accusing people of calling others Hitler when they voice disagreement or call character into question. But not even logical inferences can be drawn from what he says.
Nope, because that's done (Hitler comparison) totally in jest and is so over the top that everyone knows it's an exaggeration. Of course, I've also never said Lenny or insert poster called Tom Crean, Hitler. I've used the term in an exaggeration.
Now let's compare. You accused me of saying Buzz and\or Marquette ruined this kids life. So much so, you actually put it in quotes...three different times. Now, are the two comparable?
I'm sure you understand the difference. At least I hope you do.
-
Am I saying 'those two things are equivalent or comparable'? Huh? I simply asked you two questions.
Those were:
1) Every time a recruit asks to be released from his NLI after a coach leaves a program, do you condemn it?; and
2) Do you get upset with schools that agree to cancel the contract upon the student-athlete's request?
And I asked for clarification....you see, you made the bridge argument that since I'm upset that MU didn't honor this NLI then I must be upset when a player leaves as a result of a coach quitting. Did you not make that bridge comparison and try to make a case that I should be upset because they are somehow equivalent? You flat out say "it must upset you" If you didn't, my apologies, that's how I read it.
So, let's assume you weren't trying to make that equivalent, I'm happy to answer the questions since they have no relevancy to what happened with Newbill. None.
Do I condemn a player for leaving when a coach leaves a program? I don't like it, I think the kid should honor his commitment to the school. That being said, the absolute reality is that most kids don't sign on to play for a school, they sign on to play for a coach so when that coach leaves, players wish to be removed from their NLI because the circumstances of their commitment changed in a fundamentally major fashion.
For number 2, yes, I do get upset with schools that release kids from their NLI. Reality, again, is that the kid almost assuredly signed to play for that coach and doesn't particularly care about the school. If the school doesn't release the player, than the kid is going to dog it, not try, be a disruptive force on the team. Furthermore, it will stain the reputation of the program for future recruits by not letting them walk.
-
Nope, because that's done (Hitler comparison) totally in jest and is so over the top that everyone knows it's an exaggeration. Of course, I've also never said Lenny or insert poster called Tom Crean, Hitler. I've used the term in an exaggeration.
Now let's compare. You accused me of saying Buzz and\or Marquette ruined this kids life. So much so, you actually put it in quotes...three different times. Now, are the two comparable?
I'm sure you understand the difference. At least I hope you do.
No, you don't name names when you accuse people of calling your allies (TC, Philly coach,etc) Hitler. It's your way of demonizing anyone who disagrees with you. If you think this "jest" is in any way shape of form funny you're sadly mistaken.
As I said earlier, if I misquoted you and thereby exagerrated your outrage with Buzz and Marquette I apologize. But if you're going to be so sensitive about words meaning something maybe you should stop accusing people of screaming when they're not or calling someone Hitler when they don't.
-
Southern Miss 521
MU 330
who cares what fourbes says does the othr golden eagles choke in the ncaa tournament?
-
As I said earlier, if I misquoted you and thereby exagerrated your outrage with Buzz and Marquette I apologize.
Apology accepted
-
who cares what fourbes says does the othr golden eagles choke in the ncaa tournament?
Perhaps you should steer this to 4ever who asked the question. I was simply being nice enough to answer it for him.
-
Totally disagree. Anyone who doesn't marry and remain forever faithful to their grade school sweetheart is a hypocrite. Any company that lets an employee go because someone else can do a better job is beyond heartless. Any employee that leaves his/her employer is equal parts selfish and disloyal. And anyone who disagrees with my utopian vision should be shot.
Well put
-
Southern Miss 521
MU 330
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/best-colleges-10_Americas-Best-Colleges_State_12.html
So, they both suck, then.
-
Well put
Cura Personalis.....
-
I'm curious to know what you would call an intentional disregard for the NLI rules if not cheating?
Say Kentucky continues the practice of offering players side deals to release them from their NLI if Calipari left, would you call that cheating?
You said what Buzz did was illegal and against the rules, I made the stupid assumption that you were saying he did something to violate a NCAA rule...I won't even get into you using the word "illegal." I wonder how many recruits have talked to coaches about prep school as an option for a million and one reasons. The NLI is not legally binding for the school. If Buzz told DJ that he was going to keep recruiting and drop DJ if he found someone better, but he'd be welcome at MU the following year, there's nothing "illegal" about it from what I've read in the information you provided.
In regards to your question about Kentucky. 1. What you have described in that situation and what MU might have done are two VERY different things. 2. No, I would not call it cheating and from what I read in your post, neither would the NCAA. The National Letter of Intent program might, but it sounds voluntary to me, and it also sounds like it is there to protect the colleges and not the players.
Let me ask you a few questions. If you are worried about coaches shafting potential recruits don't you think the NLI program is a complete joke as it protects the school but not the recruit? Do you think Kentucky is worried about being kicked out of the program for offering kids the security they need (and are requesting) to rest assured they can leave a school if their coach leaves? Do you think schools should put it in writing that they are willing to let a kid out of scholarship if a coach leaves? If a five star recruit walked on MU's campus and offered to sign for next year but request MU put it in writing that he could leave if Buzz left do you feel MU should do so?
-
Perhaps you should steer this to 4ever who asked the question. I was simply being nice enough to answer it for him.
Haha I know... was a reference to the "NCAA tourney" thread from yesterday.
-
Buzz said someone might be going to prep school and that person knew it. Based on Newbill saying he had no knowledge of it, Buzz was not talking about him. Also there is no indication that Newbill was even given the option at the end to go to prep school. Therefore, you can reasonably conclude that there was no side deal made with Newbill when he sign his NLI. In my opinion Buzz signed a player that had a chance of not qualifying and whoever that was would have gone to prep school, if he did not get in. Newbill was cut. What we do not know was it based purely on basketball ability or was there something else going on. You can debate why Newbill was cut if you want, but there is no eveidence to conclude that Buzz had a side deal with Newbill.
-
Buzz said someone might be going to prep school and that person knew it. Based on Newbill saying he had no knowledge of it, Buzz was not talking about him. Also there is no indication that Newbill was even given the option at the end to go to prep school. Therefore, you can reasonably conclude that there was no side deal made with Newbill when he sign his NLI. In my opinion Buzz signed a player that had a chance of not qualifying and whoever that was would have gone to prep school, if he did not get in. Newbill was cut. What we do not know was it based purely on basketball ability or was there something else going on. You can debate why Newbill was cut if you want, but there is no eveidence to conclude that Buzz had a side deal with Newbill.
Agreed...unless you buy into IWB's story that there was such a deal in place.
-
Buzz said someone might be going to prep school and that person knew it. Based on Newbill saying he had no knowledge of it, Buzz was not talking about him. Also there is no indication that Newbill was even given the option at the end to go to prep school. Therefore, you can reasonably conclude that there was no side deal made with Newbill when he sign his NLI. In my opinion Buzz signed a player that had a chance of not qualifying and whoever that was would have gone to prep school, if he did not get in. Newbill was cut. What we do not know was it based purely on basketball ability or was there something else going on. You can debate why Newbill was cut if you want, but there is no eveidence to conclude that Buzz had a side deal with Newbill.
/and, of course, Newbill would have no incentive to put the best possible spin on it for himself, right? We really don't know all the facts so it's foolish, if amusing, for all of us to be making iron clad statements and judgements.
-
Oversigning is allowed. We did it and Newbill was the odd man out. What more is there to say? Time to move on.
-
+1 googol.
-
Oversigning is allowed. We did it and Newbill was the odd man out. What more is there to say? Time to move on.
A lot of things are allowed, the question is whether we should do them.
We could go hire a recruit's AAU coach or high school coach....should we?
That's what this discussion has always been about.
-
A lot of things are allowed, the question is whether we should do them.
We could go hire a recruit's AAU coach or high school coach....should we?
That's what this discussion has always been about.
Buzz and the athletic department should do everything that's allowed to put the best possible team on the floor that:
1) wins games
2) represents the university well
3) wins more games
4) helps these young men become better all-around people
5) wins more games
As fans, that's all we can ask for and expect. All of this "we're better than that" BS isn't based in any kind of reality. Guess what, we might have attended Marquette University, but that DOES NOT make us any better than anybody else.
-
You said what Buzz did was illegal and against the rules, I made the stupid assumption that you were saying he did something to violate a NCAA rule..
I think you're splitting hairs. The NCAA Eligibility Center administers the program, while the CCS provides governance and oversight.
Nonethless, we've agreed to a certain set of rules (along with 611 other colleges & universities) that define recruiting. We expect each of those other schools will abide by the rules--why do you think that MU isn't bound by them?
Here's what the NCAA sent to its member schools to clarify that the recruiting guidelines
http://bit.ly/dl9b1i (http://bit.ly/dl9b1i)
NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise,which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.
I wonder how many recruits have talked to coaches about prep school as an option for a million and one reasons.
They can talk all they want. Once they turn it into any sort of additional condition of the NLI, they've broken the rule.
The NLI is not legally binding for the school.
That's not what the NCAA says:
http://bit.ly/cpcEX3 (http://bit.ly/cpcEX3)
"The NLI is a binding agreement between a prospective student‐athlete and an NLI member institution."
If Buzz told DJ that he was going to keep recruiting and drop DJ if he found someone better, but he'd be welcome at MU the following year, there's nothing "illegal" about it from what I've read in the information you provided.
Sounds like an addition to the NLI to me. And here's the rule on that:
NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
But even if Buzz did tell Newbill this and never intended intend it to be an official part of the NLI, that agreement was voided when the NLI was signed:
[/i]NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise, which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.[/i]
In regards to your question about Kentucky. 1. What you have described in that situation and what MU might have done are two VERY different things.
No, its breaking the same rule: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
2. No, I would not call it cheating and from what I read in your post, neither would the NCAA.
Actually, the NCAA would call it cheating. No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
They changed the rule to make such deals illegal after Memphis issued such letters to recruits in the event Calipari left.
The National Letter of Intent program might, but it sounds voluntary to me, and it also sounds like it is there to protect the colleges and not the players.
Let's list some of the protections we lose if we "volunteered" not to be part of the program:
1. We will lose the ability to sign recruits (the NLI is part of the NLI program). All of our recruits would be verbal only.
2. Our recruits would be fair game for other teams to continue to recruit right up to the day they enroll in class. The recruiting ban is part of the NLI program.
3. We could not make any public statements about our recruits--coaches can only speak publicly about a recruit after the school has received an NLI.
4. Recruits would not be bound to attend MU. They could change their mind and attend any school--including other big east schools--right up to the first day of class.
5. Leaving MU would become penalty-free for recruits--under the NLI, a recruit that wants to leave a school has to either request a release, or he pays the penalty of a one-year residency period and loss of one-season's eligibility.
And let's not forget the whopper. The NCAA requires that all members of an NLI member conference be "voluntary" NLI members. Therefore, opting out (or being kicked out) of the NLI Program will result in us returning to the ranks of the Independents (or petitioning for admission to the Ivy League--the only league not part of the NLI program).
So don't tell me that we shouldn't be worried about maintaining NLI membership.
Let me ask you a few questions. If you are worried about coaches shafting potential recruits don't you think the NLI program is a complete joke as it protects the school but not the recruit?
I'm worried about MU slipping into a murky culture where we feel its okay to cheat because its "only" the NLI.
Do you think Kentucky is worried about being kicked out of the program for offering kids the security they need (and are requesting) to rest assured they can leave a school if their coach leaves?
If they do this, I hope they get the book at them by expelling them from the NLI program.
Do you think schools should put it in writing that they are willing to let a kid out of scholarship if a coach leaves?
They can't do this leaglly under the current rules in place.
If a five star recruit walked on MU's campus and offered to sign for next year but request MU put it in writing that he could leave if Buzz left do you feel MU should do so?
Buzz can't legally do this under the current rules in place.
-
NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise,which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.[/i]
They can talk all they want. Once they turn it into any sort of additional condition of the NLI, they've broken the rule.
So if DJ's signature nullified anything Buzz had said to the kid, and they didn't put anything in writing, I fail to see where Buzz cheated or did anything illegal which is what you originally stated? In one sentence you say Buzz can't say what he did because it's cheating and illegal, and in another you say they can talk all they want.
So let's go one step further: Did Buzz do anything against the NLI rules, if there were talks between Buzz and DJ about going to prep school if MU was able to find a player that better fit MU's needs?
-
This whole Newbill argument is asinine from all sides. That said, Marquette84, you specifically may want to sit the rest of this one out, as your argument about Buzz's illegality is completely void of legal merit.
First: NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
This section applies to the letter/form itself. In the law, we always look to the plain meaning of the statute, or in this case, the plain meaning of the word. It plainly and clearly says "[n]o additions or deletions shall be made to the [National Letter of Intent] or the Release Request form." It says nothing about agreements outside of the NLI; that will come next. So, unless you have evidence that the actual NLI was modified, then there is no violation of the above.
Second: NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise,which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.
This brings us to oral agreements outside of the NLI, which many have alleged was the case with the Newbill situation. Again, reading the plain meaning of the language, there is absolutely no mention of illegality. It simply says that such agreements are void, which is not uncommon. In fact, most contracts contain a "rule of completition" provision within their terms, which states that oral agreements outside of the terms of the four corners of the contract are null and void. This does not make entereing into such an oral agreement "illegal," just fruitless. . Furthermore, if you look at the language closer, it actually ties the student and not the institution. This language is intended to prevent the situation where a kid signs an NLI, a coach is subsequently fired, and the kid says, "[m]y oral agreement with the previous coach allows me to obtain my release.
If they wanted to make these side agreements "illegal" they would have used language such as "An institution, or its agents, shall be prohibited from placing verbal or oral conditions on the NLI. Note that you have not cited any such language.
To reiterate, your argument that Buzz acted "illegally" is without merit and is indicative of some ulterior motive on your part to undermine Buzz and his coaching regime. It further undermines any arguments against Buzz's handling of the Newbill situation.
Personally, I felt the Newbill situation was handled poorly. That said, I am not about to create phony legal arguments void of substance to further my point. Like I said earlier, you may want to sit this one out.
-
This whole Newbill argument is asinine from all sides. That said, Marquette84, you specifically may want to sit the rest of this one out, as your argument about Buzz's illegality is completely void of legal merit.
First: NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
This section applies to the letter/form itself. In the law, we always look to the plain meaning of the statute, or in this case, the plain meaning of the word. It plainly and clearly says "[n]o additions or deletions shall be made to the [National Letter of Intent] or the Release Request form." It says nothing about agreements outside of the NLI; that will come next. So, unless you have evidence that the actual NLI was modified, then there is no violation of the above.
Second: NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise,which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.
This brings us to oral agreements outside of the NLI, which many have alleged was the case with the Newbill situation. Again, reading the plain meaning of the language, there is absolutely no mention of illegality. It simply says that such agreements are void, which is not uncommon. In fact, most contracts contain a "rule of completition" provision within their terms, which states that oral agreements outside of the terms of the four corners of the contract are null and void. This does not make entereing into such an oral agreement "illegal," just fruitless. . Furthermore, if you look at the language closer, it actually ties the student and not the institution. This language is intended to prevent the situation where a kid signs an NLI, a coach is subsequently fired, and the kid says, "[m]y oral agreement with the previous coach allows me to obtain my release.
If they wanted to make these side agreements "illegal" they would have used language such as "An institution, or its agents, shall be prohibited from placing verbal or oral conditions on the NLI. Note that you have not cited any such language.
To reiterate, your argument that Buzz acted "illegally" is without merit and is indicative of some ulterior motive on your part to undermine Buzz and his coaching regime. It further undermines any arguments against Buzz's handling of the Newbill situation.
Personally, I felt the Newbill situation was handled poorly. That said, I am not about to create phony legal arguments void of substance to further my point. Like I said earlier, you may want to sit this one out.
Thanks for some clarification from a real lawyer (and not just someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express). In just a few short paragraphs you crystalize the situation for us laymen (as opposed to page after page of muddling, obfuscation, false accusations, etc. from 84). The more people who see through him and can further expose him as an agenda driven poser the better. I can't wait to read his (long-winded and rambling?) reply to your post. Will he man-up and admit he's been exposed and busted? I guess no.
-
MUcam, why on earth did you wait for this thread to go 11 pages prior to posting this? You could have saved us all a lot of time :P
-
Buzz and the athletic department should do everything that's allowed to put the best possible team on the floor that:
1) wins games
2) represents the university well
3) wins more games
4) helps these young men become better all-around people
5) wins more games
As fans, that's all we can ask for and expect. All of this "we're better than that" BS isn't based in any kind of reality. Guess what, we might have attended Marquette University, but that DOES NOT make us any better than anybody else.
And do you think #2 above was what happened as a result of this?
-
Personally, I felt the Newbill situation was handled poorly.
Agreed
-
And do you think #2 above was what happened as a result of this?
I think our team represents the University marvelously. Don't you?
-
I think our team represents the University marvelously. Don't you?
Yes I do. I think what we did to Newbill, however, doesn't. A lot of others agree with me, as do some journalists from ESPN, Rivals, Philly newspapers, etc. That's why I asked you the question if you thought the actions we took met one of the criteria you had listed. So does it?
-
Article mentioning Newbill at Southern Mississippi. Looks like Larry Eustachy was also hoodwinked by what offers the kid had. Maybe he was drunk with some coeds again at a frat party.
http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20100814/SPORTS030104/8140338/Forward-with-gun-conviction-among-USM-newcomers
-
Yeah! From reading that article, it also looks like he is bringing in a lot of classy kids. (Drugs, gun possession, a player was shot) I wouldn't be sending my son to play there. Why don't you drop this finally. It's unfortunate whatever the case, and move on.........
-
Good question.
-
A lot of things are allowed, the question is whether we should do them.
We could go hire a recruit's AAU coach or high school coach....should we?
That's what this discussion has always been about.
Not if we want said recruit to attend Marquette. As of January, any D1 school that hires a high school, AAU or JUCO coach is prohibited from recruiting players from that coach’s program for two years.
-
This whole Newbill argument is asinine from all sides. That said, Marquette84, you specifically may want to sit the rest of this one out, as your argument about Buzz's illegality is completely void of legal merit.
First: NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
This section applies to the letter/form itself. In the law, we always look to the plain meaning of the statute, or in this case, the plain meaning of the word. It plainly and clearly says "[n]o additions or deletions shall be made to the [National Letter of Intent] or the Release Request form." It says nothing about agreements outside of the NLI; that will come next. So, unless you have evidence that the actual NLI was modified, then there is no violation of the above.
Second: NULLIFICATION OF OTHER AGREEMENTS: The student's signature on the NLI nullifies any agreements, oral or otherwise,which would release him or her from the conditions stated within the NLI.
This brings us to oral agreements outside of the NLI, which many have alleged was the case with the Newbill situation. Again, reading the plain meaning of the language, there is absolutely no mention of illegality. It simply says that such agreements are void, which is not uncommon. In fact, most contracts contain a "rule of completition" provision within their terms, which states that oral agreements outside of the terms of the four corners of the contract are null and void. This does not make entereing into such an oral agreement "illegal," just fruitless. . Furthermore, if you look at the language closer, it actually ties the student and not the institution. This language is intended to prevent the situation where a kid signs an NLI, a coach is subsequently fired, and the kid says, "[m]y oral agreement with the previous coach allows me to obtain my release.
If they wanted to make these side agreements "illegal" they would have used language such as "An institution, or its agents, shall be prohibited from placing verbal or oral conditions on the NLI. Note that you have not cited any such language.
To reiterate, your argument that Buzz acted "illegally" is without merit and is indicative of some ulterior motive on your part to undermine Buzz and his coaching regime. It further undermines any arguments against Buzz's handling of the Newbill situation.
Personally, I felt the Newbill situation was handled poorly. That said, I am not about to create phony legal arguments void of substance to further my point. Like I said earlier, you may want to sit this one out.
All I can say is go back and read the article:
"NCAA Says No Conditions Allowed On Letters Of Intent"
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent (http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent)
The headline seems pretty clear to me.
The article itself seems pretty clear to me.
Mike DeCourcy has been a credible source of information on college basketball.
Language such as "institutions should be aware they are prohibited from establishing any additional conditions associated with the NLI agreement in advance of a prospective student-athlete signing the NLI" don't seem to leave much room for interpretation.
To me, telling a recruit that his NLI is conditional on the team not finding a better player would seem to represent exactly the type of condition the NCAA is trying to prohibit.
If you disagree with me that vehemently, give Susan Peal of the NLI office a call. She's DeCourcy's source.
Describe for her the scenario of a college coach telling a recruit that his NLI is conditional based on the school not finding a better recruit. Ask her flat out if that is permitted under the new rule. That's probably the only way you'll be satisfied.
-
Yeah, time to let it die....besides, all I care about is Indiana's latest top recruit they signed yesterday. I'm just all IU baby.
-
All I can say is go back and read the article:
"NCAA Says No Conditions Allowed On Letters Of Intent"
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent (http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-10-01/ncaa-says-no-conditions-allowed-on-letters-intent)
The headline seems pretty clear to me.
The article itself seems pretty clear to me.
Mike DeCourcy has been a credible source of information on college basketball.
Language such as "institutions should be aware they are prohibited from establishing any additional conditions associated with the NLI agreement in advance of a prospective student-athlete signing the NLI" don't seem to leave much room for interpretation.
To me, telling a recruit that his NLI is conditional on the team not finding a better player would seem to represent exactly the type of condition the NCAA is trying to prohibit.
If you disagree with me that vehemently, give Susan Peal of the NLI office a call. She's DeCourcy's source.
Describe for her the scenario of a college coach telling a recruit that his NLI is conditional based on the school not finding a better recruit. Ask her flat out if that is permitted under the new rule. That's probably the only way you'll be satisfied.
Like MUcam said...just walk away buddy.
-
Yeah, time to let it die....besides, all I care about is Indiana's latest top recruit they signed yesterday. I'm just all IU baby.
If Indiana did as you say--signed a 2012 recruit at this time--then this is an "illegal" action under the NCAA guidelines and will place the Hoosiers on the death penalty list due to past transgressions they are still on probation for. With the ticket scandal at KU, that makes 2 out of your 3 alma maters under NCAA watch. To me that would be quite a bit more concerning of my ethical energy than the Newbill situation which is allowed and legal (oversigning) under NCAA regulations--as a bitter end as most of us feel that this was.
-
Yeah, time to let it die....besides, all I care about is Indiana's latest top recruit they signed yesterday. I'm just all IU baby.
With all due respect, this is weak. When you can't explain why you can't let it go, just change the subject.
-
With all due respect, this is weak. When you can't explain why you can't let it go, just change the subject.
I just respond to other posters in the thread....why can't they let it go? Why does Lenny bring it up AGAIN in a totally DIFFERENT post? Is that weak? Should you address it with him? Why can't he let it go? Honestly, selective outrage toward some and not others, seems "weak"...with all due respect. ;)
Blackheart...it was in teal...it was sarcastic.
-
At the risk of defeating my own purpose, which is cloture of this unfortunate and, apparently, never ending thread, I would posit that it is clear that you are the antagonist in this thread, unwilling to accept any other view and always in need of defending your opinion even when, on many occasions, you could easily have agreed to disagree.
You have kept this thread alive whether or not your beliefs are genuine. You delight in yanking everyone's chain and arguing for its' own sake. That's amusing for a page or two.
If my criticism is "selective" I guess it is because I have elected to side with those who refuse to accept your criticism of the program in the absence of the facts. None of us really have the facts.
So, why continue to speculate and judge and poke a stick in the eye of your fellow posters? For your own amusement? Do you get your jollies by getting a rise out of people? Like I said, for a page or two, fine. But this......ridiculous. And to that end, this thread (like Favre) is dead to me. I hope to invoke my own personal cloture.
-
Blackheart...it was in teal...it was sarcastic.
I know that....I was responding back with faux sarcasm as it is not a "legal signing period" anywhere as you mistakenly indicated, not even at the probation plagued IU or the under investigation KU. ;) But there seems to be a lot of on going ethical concern about the allowable and legal over signing of Newbill that you can't seem to put to rest.
Since the time of this post you seem to indicate you know of some Pearl-like goings on...that are again legal/allowed but you disapprove of if I paraphrase you correctly. Rather than continually drudging up a dark shadow with alleged whispers of "allowed but Pearl-like" practices that you have heard about, perhaps you should opine why you don't like these practices rather than casting open aspersions and tarnishing the program? You do state they are allowable after all so why the dark curtain?
-
Agreed
We f!@#$% get it...can we move on???? Do we need 11 pages of the same thread for you to pound it in our heads that you aren't happy with how it went down??? Unbelievable. Can we lock this thread and talk about something else???
-
I just respond to other posters in the thread....why can't they let it go? Why does Lenny bring it up AGAIN in a totally DIFFERENT post? Is that weak? Should you address it with him? Why can't he let it go? Honestly, selective outrage toward some and not others, seems "weak"...with all due respect. ;)
Blackheart...it was in teal...it was sarcastic.
You have 46 posts in this thread. This is #10 for me. I'll take a little grief for "beating the dead horse" but you've nearly wiped out Calumet Farms.
-
Like MUcam said...just walk away buddy.
Sorry--both you and MUCam made made comments borne out of your ignorance over the meaning of the word illegal in the context of a discussion of rules, and you deserve to be called on it.
From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegal), there are two definitions for illegal:
–adjective
1. forbidden by law or statute.
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
Its obvious that both you and MUCam objected based on your mistaken assumptions that only definition #1 existed.
In fact, MUCam said "In the law, we always look to the plain meaning of the statute"
Well guess what, genius: WE WERN'T DISCUSSING THE LAW OR THE STATUTE!!! WE WERE DISCUSSING THE NCAA OFFICIAL RULES. THat's right--he used the WRONG DEFINITION of the word "illegal" for his entire analysis.
It should be obvious from the context of discussion, that #2 applied: contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc..
So when NCAA says they passed a rule prohibiting side deals, any subsequent side deal would be, BY DEFINITION illegal.
You and MUCam were either completely ignorant of definition #2, or your are intentionally misusing the first to confuse, obfuscate or support some agenda.
Furthermore, there are literally tens of thousands of of links on a google search for "illegal recruiting" that refer to various violations of NCAA rules, so any attempt by you to argue that the use of the word "illegal" in such context is uncommon or not well known is completely bogus.
The word illegal is used in reference to NCAA rules or recruiting in places like NY Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, ESPN, CBS, etc. etc. etc.
Its a VERY COMMON phrase when used to describe violations or potential violations of NCAA rules.
In a civil discussion, what SHOULD happen at this point is that you and MUCam will
--admit that you didn't realize there were two definitions for the word illegal,
--admit that my use was correct in the context in which it was used,
--grant that it is a VERY commonly used phrase throughout the media and the Internet to describe an NCAA rules violation,
-
In a civil discussion, what SHOULD happen at this point is that you and MUCam will
--admit that you didn't realize there were two definitions for the word illegal,
--admit that my use was correct in the context in which it was used,
--grant that it is a VERY commonly used phrase throughout the media and the Internet to describe an NCAA rules violation,
This is laughable. Like wheels stuck spinning in the mud. With this, I'll sign off. Best of luck to you, Marquette84.
-
On a completely unrelated note (for the admins): Why in the world did my post get deleted? Was it derogatory toward anyone? Did it contain obscenity of any sort? I fail to understand why anything at all in there would have been interpreted as so inappropriate as to warrant deletion. Sorry, but there's way worse crap on this board. You allow people to openly deride the female members of the Marquette community, post links to pornographic college girl lists, condone personal jabs and attacks of all sorts, and plenty of other comments that I would personally deem far more offensive. Yet you chose to delete that post? I fail to understand the logic. It was just a suggestion that the argument is redundant and should be put to rest. Oh well.
-
On a completely unrelated note (for the admins): Why in the world did my post get deleted? Was it derogatory toward anyone? Did it contain obscenity of any sort? I fail to understand why anything at all in there would have been interpreted as so inappropriate as to warrant deletion. Sorry, but there's way worse crap on this board. You allow people to openly deride the female members of the Marquette community, post links to pornographic college girl lists, condone personal jabs and attacks of all sorts, and plenty of other comments that I would personally deem far more offensive. Yet you chose to delete that post? I fail to understand the logic. It was just a suggestion that the argument is redundant and should be put to rest. Oh well.
Huh? I checked the moderation log back to June 30, I don't see that any post from "BirkieWarrior" has been touched. While I appreciate the slam on the moderation here - are you sure you posted something? Did you post under some other name? Do you realize we have a "report to moderator" link on every post if you'd like to report something as offensive?
And on that note, I think I'll lock the thread. No more good can come from this.