MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on May 10, 2010, 02:12:25 AM
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Could a second player be leaving or not qualifying?
http://rivals.yahoo.com/marshall/basketball/recruiting/player-Steadman-Short-102608
Says that 6'9' PF Steadman Short was on campus this Friday (May 7) and was offered.
He is a Juco from Chipola College (Florida) and backed out of Marshall when they changed coaches (supposedly picked them over WVU)
Here is an article from Saturday
http://www.testudotimes.com/2010/5/8/1463680/looking-at-marylands-juco-options
The other major possibility is the awesomely named Steadman Short, a former Marshall signee from Chipola CC in Florida. Originally at High Point, Short averaged about 7 points and 6 boards his freshman year. He went the JuCo route after the High Point coach left, and qe quickly committed to Marshall over (reportedly) West Virginia and Indiana. Marshall HC Donnie Jones recently left for Central Florida, so Short is now back on the market. Rivals has Marquette as the leader, with Maryland and Ole Miss on the radar.
Short possesses great size at 6-9 and is reportedly athletic enough to play on the perimeter. The Marshall coach said about as much, and also praised his work ethic:
"Steadman is very versatile with his size and skill and will give us the ability to play him on the perimeter," Jones said. "He reminds me, with his tenacity and athleticism, of former Gator Corey Brewer. Steadman loves to play and he has a great work ethic."
Meanwhile, a Marshall-area journalist calls him a "tall forward" with the "potential to play on the perimeter"; he's not a SF, according to this guy.
There's not a ton of information online about Steadman's situation, so judging Maryland's involvement is difficult. Rivals has a story on an official decommitment, though, so it appears that we'll hear more soon.
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Interesting
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This development raises more questions than answers.
Is a guy who averages 7 boards and 6 rebounds at JC going to be a big near term contributor or is he another project with less eligibility?
If he commits, who else leaves?
Does he only have one year of JC under his belt (the article talks about his freshman JC averages) and thus has 3 years of eligibility?
Does he have any JC honors like almost all our other JC commits? If he does, what are they?
What does Buzz see to be his role on the team?
I trust Buzz, but I am just trying to understand this one.
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I read it as 7 boards and 6 rebounds at High Point, before transferring for a year at JC....
this is an interesting development- not sure what I think of it if it means one of our incoming frosh are not qualifying.
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I do not feel the tingle running down my leg over this as...
Why do we need a 7 point Juco scorer over what we have? Not getting this at all. This is not interesting---more like it makes no sense--unless we are losing a bunch of guys and Williams is getting desperate. I find this tremendously hard to believe.
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I'm figuring the program knows someone is transferring. That will not be announced until he finishes finals and the semester ends. Actually prefers this route, if it comes to this, rather than an incoming freshman not qualifying.
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I'm shocked by this especially considering the "Noreen ultimatum."
However, the one thing this would do is better even out the classes rather than having 5 freshmen next year. If he has two years of eligibility left, that would put him in a three person class with Crowder and DJO.
As a side note, in looking at the scholarship table, every single one of our juniors and seniors next year are JC transfers.
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http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Steadman-Short-68179
Was a two star ranked recruit, based on Rivals in 2008.
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I'm figuring the program knows someone is transferring. That will not be announced until he finishes finals and the semester ends. Actually prefers this route, if it comes to this, rather than an incoming freshman not qualifying.
I initially thought this and realized this also makes no sense.
If you are going to transfer, you need to line up your transferring school (remember you will take up a schollie as you sit out a year). If you start the process in late May, you really limit your options as spots at other schools fill up (see MU).
Considering the names we throw around that might transfer, meaning the bottom of the bench, these guys are not good enough to have worked out a transfer and have the transferring school hold a spot open for them until the formal announcement in late May, unless they are going to a D2 school. The transferring school risks a potential transferring player having a change of heart or picking another school.
The bottom if the bench is not worth this risk. This means we might be looking at two incoming freshmen not qualifying.
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As a side note, in looking at the scholarship table, every single one of our juniors and seniors next year are JC transfers.
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How do people feel about the influx of JC's? I honestly don't know how I feel about it, but was wondering if anyone else has a strong feeling one way or the other.
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I do not feel the tingle running down my leg over this as Chris mathews did over his butt boy Obama.
Why do we need a 7 point Juco scorer over what we have? Not getting this at all. This is not interesting---more like it makes no sense--unless we are losing a bunch of guys and Williams is getting desperate. I find this tremendously hard to believe.
Read the article, he averaged 7 points as a freshman at High Point... which is not a Juco.
Maybe you need that tingle
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How do people feel about the influx of JC's? I honestly don't know how I feel about it, but was wondering if anyone else has a strong feeling one way or the other.
Jucos have a bad reputation ... they went to Juco because they could not go to a four year college straight away, either academics or discipline. That is the concern everyone has with them.
DJO, Buycks, Crowder, Butler, Fucle ... we could see a game next year where all five starters are Jucos.
It seems like Buzz is exploiting a market inefficiency in finding good players in Jucos. Who else is getting this level of talent out of Jucos right now? So as long as our Jucos do not live up to this reputation, I do not have a problem with it.
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Jucos have a bad reputation ... they went to Juco because they could not go to a four year college straight away, either academics or discipline. That is the concern everyone has with them.
But that's not accurate. DJO, Fulce and Butler, and if he comes here even Short, were full qualifiers coming out of high school and went the JUCO route to improve their choices. Buycks and Crowder were not.
However, I don't have a problem with JUCOs in general. Buzz definately needed them to balance out the classes. Unless I am misremembering something, the only seniors we would have had next year would have been Hazel and Christopherson had they not transferred. The decommits of Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, along with the McMorrow injury, means that the junior class needed the JUCOs.
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But that's not accurate. DJO, Fulce and Butler, and if he comes here even Short, were full qualifiers coming out of high school and went the JUCO route to improve their choices. Buycks and Crowder were not.
I was talking about the general reputation of Jucos among fans, not the specific circumstances of our players.
I still believe my characterization is accurate and why so many fans "look down" upon them.
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Read the article, he averaged 7 points as a freshman at High Point... which is not a Juco.
Maybe you need that tingle
I read the article--does not indicate what High point is. is it a HS, a prep school, a Military School or simply the top of the hill? At any rate, how does a 7 point scorer help us? Sounds to me like he might help weigh down the bunch. We do not need to waste a shollie we do not have on this.
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I read the article--does not indicate what High point is. is it a HS, a prep school, a Military School or simply the top of the hill? At any rate, how does a 7 point scorer help us? Sounds to me like he might help weigh down the bunch. We do not need to waste a shollie we do not have on this.
I'm 99% sure high point is a small university in north Carolina. they are div 1 in baseball but not sure about basketball - Sal bandos son was the baseball coach there. so there's my useless sports trivia for the day.
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Wow, it looks like the train has left the station on this one for a bunch of folks who seem to pride themselves in basketball knowledge.
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Here is a link to Short's record at High Point.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/players/82285/
He apparently went to Chipola JC when the High Point coach left after a terrible season. Looking at his numbers there. he did show some nice rebounding games against some decent competition.
Couldn't find much about his numbers at Chipola other than a 22 point game and another at 13. Apparently he signed with Marshall but was later released when their coach left.
Finally a dunk of his on You Tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2OfACfbnpM
Doesn't look like he has any range from his numbers and FT % but seems to board well.
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A couple of things...
-When he was at High Point University, he was coached by Bart Lundy...who is currently on MU's coaching staff. So there is the connection.
But that's not accurate. DJO, Fulce and Butler, and if he comes here even Short, were full qualifiers coming out of high school and went the JUCO route to improve their choices. Buycks and Crowder were not.
-A common misconception amongst MU fans about our Jucos...Even though they only spent 1 year at JUCO, neither DJO or Fulce were qualifiers out of HS. After 4 years in HS, both needed prep school before Juco.
-Buzz will continue to recruit the JUCO ranks. I wouldn't be surprised if we had 1 per class. It is what he knows, has alot of contacts, and it and what he is comfortable with.
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I read the article--does not indicate what High point is. is it a HS, a prep school, a Military School or simply the top of the hill? At any rate, how does a 7 point scorer help us? Sounds to me like he might help weigh down the bunch. We do not need to waste a shollie we do not have on this.
Well... then instead of making incorrect statements, do some research... all it takes is to type "High Point" into google and you get your answer
http://www.highpointpanthers.com/
They are a university, D1
7 point 6 boards as a freshman... who has some size... beats any big man we have had in the past decade that played for MU as a frosh
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I'm sure High Point plays against some real stellar teams.
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Bart Lundy-MU Director of Operations was High Point's Head coach. Maybe he was familiar with Steadman.
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Even when we try to get big guys, they're still short!
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http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/prospects?firstName=steadman&lastName=short&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fprospects%3ffirstName%3dsteadman%26lastName%3dshort
ESPN has him ranked pretty good.
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So, now we're all getting a hard-on for a player nobody knew yesterday.
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Bart Lundy-MU Director of Operations was High Point's Head coach. Maybe he was familiar with Steadman.
Yeah. Bart signed Steadman while there:
http://www.highpointpanthers.com/news/2007/11/21/2000139.aspx?path=mbball
Steadman being named frosh of the week:
http://www.highpointpanthers.com/news/2009/1/5/252638.aspx?path=mbball
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A common misconception amongst MU fans about our Jucos...Even though they only spent 1 year at JUCO, neither DJO or Fulce were qualifiers out of HS. After 4 years in HS, both needed prep school before Juco.
They needed prep school, but they could have gone to a four-year school right out of prep school right? They didn't have to go Juco.
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We now have 14 players (assuming Gardner signed) for 13 spots and just offered another a spot we technically do not have. I'm more interested in how we are going to make room for potentially two more players.
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They needed prep school, but they could have gone to a four-year school right out of prep school right? They didn't have to go Juco.
Nope, DJO needed to go to JUCO. From Jsonline:
"A former all-state player in high school in his hometown of Raleigh, N.C., Johnson-Odom was forced to go to prep school after graduation because of academic concerns. When that wasn't enough to get him qualified, he moved on to Hutchinson."
As for Fulce...Not 100% sure really. He committed to play for Buzz at UNO in April 2007, then Buzz left for MU in July 2007 and Fulce ended up at Tyler JC for a year. I am not sure if it was because of academics or because it was his only option.
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Nope, DJO needed to go to JUCO. From Jsonline:
"A former all-state player in high school in his hometown of Raleigh, N.C., Johnson-Odom was forced to go to prep school after graduation because of academic concerns. When that wasn't enough to get him qualified, he moved on to Hutchinson."
OK...thank you.
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Chipola Stats:
http://www.njcaa.org/colleges_college_stats.cfm?sid=4&collegeid=1356&category=Stats&slid=2
Chipola finished third in the NJCAA tournament. 34-2.
http://www.chipola.edu/extrac/athl/media_guide.html
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It seems a "last in, first out" scenario with Newbill the most likely candidate. If not him, then Smith. We will also look to sign one more prospect and when that occurs Mbao will be leaving the program. If the three prospects left on the market turn us down, then Newbill and Smith don't need to worry about their prep year.
Wrote this three days ago when I got slammed for hating on Buzz and MU.
Noreen was the first of the three prospects remaining. He's out. Short is the second of the three prospects and its dubious whether he got a true offer but we'll see how Lundy plays this. If the third prospect doesn't show up, expect Newbill to prep and Mbao to stay.
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It seems a "last in, first out" scenario with Newbill the most likely candidate. If not him, then Smith. We will also look to sign one more prospect and when that occurs Mbao will be leaving the program. If the three prospects left on the market turn us down, then Newbill and Smith don't need to worry about their prep year.
Wrote this three days ago when I got slammed for hating on Buzz and MU.
Noreen was the first of the three prospects remaining. He's out. Short is the second of the three prospects and its dubious whether he got a true offer but we'll see how Lundy plays this. If the third prospect doesn't show up, expect Newbill to prep and Mbao to stay.
There has been speculation that Smith may not qualify, and if you recall, Gardener's coach was quoted as saying that "they are waiting on his test scores"...for all we know, Smith AND Gardener aren't qualifying???
Who knows!? It'll all be sorted out within the next couple of weeks though...
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Nope, DJO needed to go to JUCO. From Jsonline:
"A former all-state player in high school in his hometown of Raleigh, N.C., Johnson-Odom was forced to go to prep school after graduation because of academic concerns. When that wasn't enough to get him qualified, he moved on to Hutchinson."
As for Fulce...Not 100% sure really. He committed to play for Buzz at UNO in April 2007, then Buzz left for MU in July 2007 and Fulce ended up at Tyler JC for a year. I am not sure if it was because of academics or because it was his only option.
Isn't there a little more to it though, since he only did 1 year at juco? I thought there was some kind of hang up with the NCAA where he wasn't immediately cleared out of Prep School, so he went the juco route. But after some additional review, the NCAA cleared him during his year at juco. So technically, he was qualified out of prep school, he just didn't know it until half-way through his juco year when it was too late, which is when Buzz swooped in.
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There has been speculation that Smith may not qualify, and if you recall, Gardener's coach was quoted as saying that "they are waiting on his test scores"...for all we know, Smith AND Gardener aren't qualifying???
Who knows!? It'll all be sorted out within the next couple of weeks though...
I think the signing period ends on May 19, so, we should know shortly.
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Smith is Coming to Marquette for sure! He will be here in July!
Expect Mbao to Leave.
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I thought Fulce qualified out of high school and was ready to go to Texas A&M, but they did not have enough scholarships so he went to a prep school. Then was going to UNO, but Buzz left so he went JUCO one year.
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I thought Fulce qualified out of high school and was ready to go to Texas A&M, but they did not have enough scholarships so he went to a prep school. Then was going to UNO, but Buzz left so he went JUCO one year.
No, he went to Prep School because he couldn't qualify out of high school. Then he committed to UNO out of Prep, and was qualified, but did not attend because Buzz left, that's when he went the JUCO route.
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So, now we're all getting a hard-on for a player nobody knew yesterday.
No not all of us. I am not, but it appears that McCheese might be, pointing out that he averaged 7 points as a Frosh at that stellar D1 program High Point.
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No not all of us. I am not, but it appears that McCheese might be, pointing out that he averaged 7 points as a Frosh at that stellar D1 program High Point.
Would you put High Point on the same level as UW-Mil or UW-GB? Would you slam a transfer from either of those two schools with those stats their freshman year? How many freshman big men at Marquette averaged 7 pts per game within the last 10 or 20 years? Novak, Lazar, Ooze, Amo? Again it's "In Buzz I trust." Hopefully they see a diamond in the rough with Steadman. On the downside, someone is not coming too or coming back to Marquette.
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I'm amazed no one has made an Oprah joke yet...
Where's ZFB?
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This is correct. If he wasn't qualified out of prep school he would have had to stay at Hutchinson for 2 years.
"Isn't there a little more to it though, since he only did 1 year at juco? I thought there was some kind of hang up with the NCAA where he wasn't immediately cleared out of Prep School, so he went the juco route. But after some additional review, the NCAA cleared him during his year at juco. So technically, he was qualified out of prep school, he just didn't know it until half-way through his juco year when it was too late, which is when Buzz swooped in."
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Lets pump the brakes folks. He hasn't signed an LOI yet.
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We now have 14 players (assuming Gardner signed) for 13 spots and just offered another a spot we technically do not have. I'm more interested in how we are going to make room for potentially two more players.
And if we do somehow have room, why was Noreen given a "take it or leave it" offer? I'd rather have Noreen than this guy that no one on this board ever heard of before today.
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And if we do somehow have room, why was Noreen given a "take it or leave it" offer? I'd rather have Noreen than this guy that no one on this board ever heard of before today.
If there's one thing I've learned following recruiting, it's take everything, especially from the player's camp, with several grains of salt. Remember, the schools cannot comment on the recruitment, so they set the tone publicly.
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Would you put High Point on the same level as UW-Mil or UW-GB? Would you slam a transfer from either of those two schools with those stats their freshman year? How many freshman big men at Marquette averaged 7 pts per game within the last 10 or 20 years? Novak, Lazar, Ooze, Amo? Again it's "In Buzz I trust." Hopefully they see a diamond in the rough with Steadman. On the downside, someone is not coming to or coming back to Marquette.
No, I would not put High Point at the same level. And comparing what a frosh averaged at high point to what a frosh may not have averaged at MU is ridiculous.
And the mantra of In Buzz I trust is getting old. Yes, he has made some good selections from the Juco ranks: DJO, Butler (unless you want to call that Crean's), and perhaps Bucyks, along with Crowder, but Buzz has had some misses on some of his drafts: Roseboro, maybe Williams, Monterale Clark; Maymon; etc., so if you waqnt to subscribe to the "in Buzz I trust" theory, that is your choice--sort of the "In Barack I trust" crowd. Just saying, we need to scrutinize these things with some degree of "what is going on?"
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I'm amazed no one has made an Oprah joke yet...
Where's ZFB?
sorry, don't know enough about Oprah and her eunuch to make a joke. :)
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This doesn't seem too complicated to me. There have been rumors about Mbao for a while. There is minus one, and Reggie not qualifying is minus two. We add two players we are even. Once again I will stick with what I have been saying. We have good guards, We have Crowder, and Butler. Crowder as I have read does not want to play the 4 but rather the 3. Maybe Buzz is looking at Crowder and his potential and is not ready to have another Maymon happen. Therefore instead of getting a guard when Smith isn't qualifying he is getting a guy to play the 4 behind Butler.
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I don't believe Noreen had a take it or leave it offer.
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No, I would not put High Point at the same level. And comparing what a frosh averaged at high point to what a frosh may not have averaged at MU is ridiculous.
And the mantra of In Buzz I trust is getting old. Yes, he has made some good selections from the Juco ranks: DJO, Butler (unless you want to call that Crean's), and perhaps Bucyks, along with Crowder, but Buzz has had some misses on some of his drafts: Roseboro, maybe Williams, Monterale Clark; Maymon; etc., so if you waqnt to subscribe to the "in Buzz I trust" theory, that is your choice--sort of the "In Barack I trust" crowd. Just saying, we need to scrutinize these things with some degree of "what is going on?"
Pretty bad examples you are using there to debunk the "in Buzz we trust" mantra. I dont think there are too many people around especially Bruce peral that don think Maymon is a high major player, he did not work out at Mu so waht happens every day across America. Same with clark a big big big time recruit, Roseboro I think you are trying to grow a myth. Roseboro could have earned time at Mu but unlike guys like Otule, mbao and EWill was not committed enought to work his but off for 2-3 years to earn playing time, His loss not Mu's, Buzz can replace him. Ewill is a top 100 kid that would have started at a non BCS school as a Freshman. Now compare those to Niv Berkowitz, Kevin Menard and the Crean laundry list of kids that had no business on a D1 roster.
Lastly, maybe before you rip High Point too hard you ought to actually take a look at who they play and some of the number this kid put up as a Freshman against them. I was very impressed with his numerous double digit rebound performances against teams...quite frankly better than UWM or UWGB.
I am not saying we should sign this kid, I am also not going to get into the absolute gussing game as to what might transpire. However, i will object to these two arguments of yours that are completely off base!
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His loss not Mu's, Buzz can replace him.
This is the only problem left. The best programs recruit kids that are necessary for the program to succeed (and are a good fit). Recruits shouldnt be interchangeable such that if we lose a player, we can just go out on the road late in the signing period and find someone else. Now, if youre talking about losing out on Selby and 'settle' for Knight, then that's another story. But if you are recruiting major projects and replacing those players with other major projects, then you're treading water. I would have thought that making the ncaa tourney regularly would have bumped us up a bit. Not yet. Once those 'major projects' are replaced by 'projects,' things will look brighter.
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This is the only problem left. The best programs recruit kids that are necessary for the program to succeed (and are a good fit). Recruits shouldnt be interchangeable such that if we lose a player, we can just go out on the road late in the signing period and find someone else. Now, if youre talking about losing out on Selby and 'settle' for Knight, then that's another story. But if you are recruiting major projects and replacing those players with other major projects, then you're treading water. I would have thought that making the ncaa tourney regularly would have bumped us up a bit. Not yet. Once those 'major projects' are replaced by 'projects,' things will look brighter.
wow we are talking about the agreed upon by all as the 13th player on the roster. My point is if he chooses to leave no problem. Willie had used him as an indicator of why people should be wary of trusting buzz. More than a stretch IMO
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Butler (unless you want to call that Crean's
Just wanted to clarify that Butler was definitely a Buzz recruit. Jimmy committed on April 17, 2008. MU's previous coach left on April 1, 2008.
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Smith is Coming to Marquette for sure! He will be here in July!
Expect Mbao to Leave.
Is this based upon inside info, or just your opinion?
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No, I would not put High Point at the same level. And comparing what a frosh averaged at high point to what a frosh may not have averaged at MU is ridiculous.
And the mantra of In Buzz I trust is getting old. Yes, he has made some good selections from the Juco ranks: DJO, Butler (unless you want to call that Crean's), and perhaps Bucyks, along with Crowder, but Buzz has had some misses on some of his drafts: Roseboro, maybe Williams, Monterale Clark; Maymon; etc., so if you waqnt to subscribe to the "in Buzz I trust" theory, that is your choice--sort of the "In Barack I trust" crowd. Just saying, we need to scrutinize these things with some degree of "what is going on?"
I am sorry, but if you compare Buzz to Crean in regards to hitting home runs versus striking out on late inning recruits, Buzz is hands down the batting champion compared to Crean. And why throw politics in this? Barack is just as trustable as Bush or Clinton. God help this country.
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No, I would not put High Point at the same level. And comparing what a frosh averaged at high point to what a frosh may not have averaged at MU is ridiculous.
And the mantra of In Buzz I trust is getting old. Yes, he has made some good selections from the Juco ranks: DJO, Butler (unless you want to call that Crean's), and perhaps Bucyks, along with Crowder, but Buzz has had some misses on some of his drafts: Roseboro, maybe Williams, Monterale Clark; Maymon; etc., so if you waqnt to subscribe to the "in Buzz I trust" theory, that is your choice--sort of the "In Barack I trust" crowd. Just saying, we need to scrutinize these things with some degree of "what is going on?"
Perhaps you have sufficient detailed information that qualifies you to scrutinize the program. However, most of us have mere observations and, at best, semi informed opinions. As you may have noticed, we are not Duke, or Kansas or North Carolina. We don't have the luxury of taking phone calls from 5 star players dying to enroll. I'd guess that most small private universities located in tundra cities such as Milwaukee would be ecstatic to have our success.
These are kids coming to us who are still babies in the world. To be shocked that one or two of them fell through the cracks seems naive. You may see a cult of supporters, but I prefer to think of us as adults who have assigned a job to their coach and are very pleased so far with his performance. Many of us see the glass as well above half full. If there are problems that arise in the future, most of us are willing to investigate and reevaluate. Until then, I do trust Buzz.
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Perhaps you have sufficient detailed information that qualifies you to scrutinize the program. However, most of us have mere observations and, at best, semi informed opinions. As you may have noticed, we are not Duke, or Kansas or North Carolina. We don't have the luxury of taking phone calls from 5 star players dying to enroll. I'd guess that most small private universities located in tundra cities such as Milwaukee would be ecstatic to have our success.
These are kids coming to us who are still babies in the world. To be shocked that one or two of them fell through the cracks seems naive. You may see a cult of supporters, but I prefer to think of us as adults who have assigned a job to their coach and are very pleased so far with his performance. Many of us see the glass as well above half full. If there are problems that arise in the future, most of us are willing to investigate and reevaluate. Until then, I do trust Buzz.
Even the coaches that get the 5 star recruits calling and asking to come (UNC/Duke), miss on plenty of recruits and miss judge talent and desire, etc. Buzz is doing just fine and much better than just fine in my opinion.
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If you want to look on the bright side; for any of us that were concerned that Buzz had decided that due to the 2009 - 2010 team's success that a team with every major contributor 6'6" or under could be the wave of the future this should put that fear to rest. It appears that Buzz is absolutely paranoid of going into next season in that condition. Gardner, Short and for that matter Mbao and Otule are all risks for one reason or another. As many have said big men are a rare commodity and good ones are even rarer in the Spring signing period. For some reason that I can't exactly figure MU hasn't even been able to recruit to what I would consider a high major level befitting their position in the BE. I've got to believe that Buzz will fix that long term. But in the short term he is pulling out all the stops in the hopes that at least of couple of these guys will work out. Its an inexact science that gets even harder when you are working with "whats left". I'm just glad to see he seems as concerned about the overall problem as I think we should be.
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http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Steadman-Short-68179
Was a two star ranked recruit, based on Rivals in 2008.
I am shocked! Shocked I tell you! Not only would he would dare turn down an offer from It's Indiana It's Indiana but as a two star recruit he is precisely the level of talent Tanned Tommy specializes in! How dare he! How dare he, I say!
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my only difference with NotAnAlum is that this year's class is ranked 2nd among Big East schools behind Syracuse, so I don't think you can say Marquette has not recruited at a BE level. If I could offer a slight amendment, we have had trouble recruiting BE-TYPE players, getting great guards and guys in the 6-5 range (Hayward, Butler, Crowder, Matthews) but none of the bruisers that much of the BE manages to get. Not always a bad thing, when teams can't match up with us, but I am happy to see Buzz filling in at least some real possibilities above 6-foot-6.
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yes, I was referring to recruiting centers and power players. Our recruiting has been fine at the other postions which adds to the mystery.
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yes, I was referring to recruiting centers and power players. Our recruiting has been fine at the other postions which adds to the mystery.
It's not much of a mystery. I'll answer it with a couple of questions and see if you can find the answer yourself. How many 5'10"-6'6" athletes are there out there? How many 6'10" "bangers" are there out there?
In order to land the VERY select few guys who satisfy the description of "big banger" you have to start by taking risks on unproven tall guys and hope to develop them. I'm going to guess that you'll bring up the fact that smaller schools have these players, but they're almost all seniors who came in like an Mbao and worked hard to get where they are.
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Also its pretty easy to recruit against MU when it comes to bigs....opposing coaches ask them, "Mr. 6'10, how many big men have developed and went to the NBA at MU? Its a gaurd and wing school, you don't want to go there and be underutilized. I'd bet all coaches recruit against MU that way, once one of these "projects" pans out it'll be much easier. All these guys have dreams of getting paid to play basketball.
And Buzz knows what he's doing and 99 percent of us on this board are pretty clueless but enjoy following it...to say "no thanks" because he averaged 7 and 6 as a freshman seems a little ridiculous.
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Let me turn the question around ... take any guy off the team, including the incoming freshman, and replace them with Short. Is the team better, the same, or worse?
Under any scenario it looks like Short is a downgrade.
So, yes I trust Buzz. It just looks like the team is going the wrong way with this potential offer.
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Let me turn the question around ... take any guy off the team, including the incoming freshman, and replace them with Short. Is the team better, the same, or worse?
Under any scenario it looks like Short is a downgrade.
So, yes I trust Buzz. It just looks like the team is going the wrong way with this potential offer.
You're assuming a couple of points that are not necessarily a given:
1. Someone is getting Creaned. Player may be leaving by his own choosing.
2. Looking into a crystal ball and assuming at the end of one's eligibility, Short has a lesser collegiate career than the player who he replaced.
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You're assuming a couple of points that are not necessarily a given:
1. Someone is getting Creaned. Player may be leaving by his own choosing.
2. Looking into a crystal ball and assuming at the end of one's eligibility, Short has a lesser collegiate career than the player who he replaced.
Not assuming someone is getting Creaned. Just assuming someone is leaving/not qualifying to make room. It's simple math. The reason why is not important. The fact that it is happening is.
regarding #2 ... you are half correct. We don't know what Short's colliegate career will look like. But we have to compare him to whoever is leaving. Given this, I don't see how losing one of the existing 14 and plugging in Short makes the team better.
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Not assuming someone is getting Creaned. Just assuming someone is leaving/not qualifying to make room. It's simple math. The reason why is not important. The fact that it is happening is.
regarding #2 ... you are half correct. We don't know what Short's colliegate career will look like. But we have to compare him to whoever is leaving. Given this, I don't see how losing one of the existing 14 and plugging in Short makes the team better.
I like Buzz a lot, but more so than even how this guy Short would turn out if he came, i really hope that none of the kids who committed earlier is getting pushed out the door, even if the push is only a nudge.
Buzz doesn't strike me as a phony when it comes to genuinely caring about his players and thus i'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the practice of over recruiting. I want to believe that Buzz wouldn't try to talk a committed recruit into leaving just because he got someone to sign later that Buzz liked better. So while i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that for now, i'll be disappointed if i hear differently later on. It would go beyond disappointment if that practice became fairly common so i hope it never even begins.
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I'm assuming, for now, that 1-2 of our 13 - 14 players cannot play next year for reasons other than Buzz found someone he likes better.
Time will tell if the chase of the last three weeks has been smart, last-minute gap-plugging or potentially dangerous over-recruiting.
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Let me turn the question around ... take any guy off the team, including the incoming freshman, and replace them with Short. Is the team better, the same, or worse?
Just like in previous threads your statement is based upon looking at this as a trade so you are assuming that Buzz is pushing out a guy who would otherwise stay at MU and on the 13 man roster. I just don't think that Buzz works like that. I believe that this signals that a player is either going to leave or can't get in REGARDLESS. So I think you look at this as "Is it better to have Short or have a open roster spot that could be used later". My feeling is given the fact that none of these PF/C guys are sure things the more the better. For instance we could see Gardner come in, not be able to control his weight and leave the team prior to the start of the season. We could see Otule re-injure his foot and realize his body can't take the stress of basketball. If that happens and some other guy leaves regardless we're looking awful small again.
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Just like in previous threads your statement is based upon looking at this as a trade so you are assuming that Buzz is pushing out a guy who would otherwise stay at MU and on the 13 man roster.
Yes, I do look at like a trade. And, no I am not assuming that Buzz is pushing someone out.
When I see that Short has been offered and read about him, I conclude that he is not as good as any of the 14 we currently have. Offering him a spot suggests someone is leaving, probably for reasons that don't have to do with Buzz asking them to leave. No matter who it is, and whatever the reason, taking any person off our current roster and inserting Short looks like a downgrade.
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I do not know anything more than anyone else. I suspect that Mbao knees will never allow him to become a viable player and that he will be taking the McMorrow route and stay at MU, but not be on the team anymore. I have nothing to back this up, but that is what makes sense to me. I also suspect that Newbill was signed with the agreement he would go to prep school for a year. Signing Newbill allows Buzz to bring him in during summer school so he can work on his game. I have no idea how good Short is, but Buzz in his first two years ended up not having enough players to practice with, so I can fully understand why he wants 13 players on board. Of course, if I am right about Newbill, the question becomes which helps the team more, Newbill or Short? The fact is that this is all speculation and perhaps until we know we should not criticize. Also, if there is a player health issue, we probably will never know about it. Given that it is obvious that Buzz is trying to sign another player and I assume Noreen is no longer a possibility that debate would be would you rather have Short or Hahn. It apprears Buzz rather have Short, but if Short turns us down does that bring Hahn back in the picture.
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No. Hahn is REALLY bad.
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I think AnotherMU84's Poll should go back up.
Its obvious that at least one spot is open probably more. I think this offer all but assures Mbao is out. I also think the "Big Ox" has not qualified academically yet. His coach told Rosiak he just took the SAT again. Plus, if another recruit does not qualify academically, that gives us 3 potential spots. Personally, I'd like to see Mbao and Gardner stay on and Smith or Newbill do a prep year.
Also, anyone think we still might sign Noreen? Or did he turn an offer down that's not there anymore?
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Mikey,
I agree Mbao has been toast for quite a while. Noreen is a white hot commodity now and has been racking up the frequent flyer miles to the point where he can probably travel at no charge for the next 10 years. Don't expect him in a Warrior uni.
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Yes, I do look at like a trade. And, no I am not assuming that Buzz is pushing someone out.
When I see that Short has been offered and read about him, I conclude that he is not as good as any of the 14 we currently have. Offering him a spot suggests someone is leaving, probably for reasons that don't have to do with Buzz asking them to leave. No matter who it is, and whatever the reason, taking any person off our current roster and inserting Short looks like a downgrade.
I think that those posters in this thread who doubt Short's abilities are overlooking a significant difference between Short and Buzz's other JC recruits, Short when he played Div I ball at High Point played for the entire year for a coach, Bart Lundy, who is now on MU's basketball staff. As well as Buzz's JC connections have served him in the past, he's got even better information this time because he has access to a coach who saw first hand how Short handled ALL aspects of being a Div I player, not just how he played, but also how he practiced, how he did in individual workouts, and in the classroom. Buzz clearly has the goods on who Short is, and based on that, stating that Short is downgrade can only be a knee jerk reaction that just hasn't been thought through.
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Buzz clearly has the goods on who Short is, and based on that, stating that Short is downgrade can only be a knee jerk reaction that just hasn't been thought through.
Put names on it ....
Short or Ewill, which would you rather have? I say Ewill
Short of Mbao which would you rather have? I say Mbao
Short or Newbill which would you rather have? I say Newbill
Short or Reggie Smith which would you rather have? I say Smith
Ok, you tell me which of these four, or any others, you think Short is better than?
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Put names on it ....
Short or Ewill, which would you rather have? I say Ewill
Short of Mbao which would you rather have? I say Mbao
Short or Newbill which would you rather have? I say Newbill
Short or Reggie Smith which would you rather have? I say Smith
Ok, you tell me which of these four, or any others, you think Short is better than?
None of these are fair comparisons because NONE of us knows how well Short will play and because it is unfair to compare Short who is a "big" to Smith, Newbill, or Ewill who are not.
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Put names on it ....
Short or Ewill, which would you rather have? I say Ewill
Short of Mbao which would you rather have? I say Mbao
Short or Newbill which would you rather have? I say Newbill
Short or Reggie Smith which would you rather have? I say Smith
Ok, you tell me which of these four, or any others, you think Short is better than?
I can't put a name to it, nor can you in any informed manner. How are Williams' off season workouts going? Does Mbao knock over a table and then cry, if someone steals his desert at the training table? You think that you know what you're talking about, but unless you're on the MU basketball staff, you are not in any position to pick any of the four listed above over Short. Maybe Short will be an improvement over who goes, maybe Buzz will get it wrong, and he won't be. But, right or wrong, Buzz will have the benefit of at least ten times more information about each of these players then you do when the roster for next year works out.
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I think the thought on him might be he could play the 5 for us and bring a different dimension than Outle a little quicker and maybe a better athlete. Where as someone like Mbao and Gardner may have a higher ceiling at the 5 than short. Possible Buzz feels he can get solid backup minutes right away. I think both Both gardner and Mbao might be a year away from being able to give you solid backup minutes at the 5. Just my thought.
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I think that those posters in this thread who doubt Short's abilities are overlooking a significant difference between Short and Buzz's other JC recruits, Short when he played Div I ball at High Point played for the entire year for a coach, Bart Lundy, who is now on MU's basketball staff. As well as Buzz's JC connections have served him in the past, he's got even better information this time because he has access to a coach who saw first hand how Short handled ALL aspects of being a Div I player, not just how he played, but also how he practiced, how he did in individual workouts, and in the classroom. Buzz clearly has the goods on who Short is, and based on that, stating that Short is downgrade can only be a knee jerk reaction that just hasn't been thought through.
+1 - - I also would say that if Short could put up 7pts and 6 rebounds per game in Division 1 ball, even if at a low major, that shows more ability than Mbao. And, Buzz has said a player needs to earn their scholarship to play ball at MU - and that he's not run off any players who have lacked in production up to this point - Otule, Fulce, and mentioned Erik Williams as well in a recent interview. My bet is that either Mbao's knees are too problematic for him to be a player, or that he has not been willing to put in the work required to be an effective player at this level - and as a result has not earned his scholarship renewal. Lastly, I have NO issue with this, as ultimately the real world works the same way, and if you don't earn your wage - you lose your spot. That is real life, and I don't think it is wrong to impose this type of choice to a scholarship basketball player. The ball and opportunity are in their court - what will the player choose to do?
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Put names on it ....
Short or Ewill, which would you rather have? I say Ewill
Short of Mbao which would you rather have? I say Mbao
Short or Newbill which would you rather have? I say Newbill
Short or Reggie Smith which would you rather have? I say Smith
Ok, you tell me which of these four, or any others, you think Short is better than?
Obviously, all speculation, but from what limited information is out there I would take Short for 2 years over Mbao for 3. I don't really see how Mbao could give us anything before 2011-12, and even then its a major doubt with his limited bball experience and injury problems. I remember Buzz saying on his radio show this season that they stopped practice and gave him a standing ovation when he scored his first basket in practice in a 5on5 situation since he had been at MU. Seems like he has a LONG way to go.
I would be very upset if it were EWill to transfer, I hope he has a bright future with us. Smith I wouldn't want to see go either, but I have been hearing for the last month that he might not qualify so that might explain that. Hopefully he is part of the 2011 class if he goes prep. Newbill seems like a really good prospect, but I don't think hes anybody that Buzz couldn't easily replace in next year's class.
I have been hoping for MU to get a guy who fits Short's profile--6'8-6'9, long, athletic jumper--for years. West Virginia's team was made up almost entirely of those guys, and that worked for them. I would prefer higher ranked guy than Short (Noreen), but this late in the game he would be a nice option to provide depth at the 4 and 5 for two years then free up a scholarship faster than Mbao.
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I can't put a name to it, nor can you in any informed manner. How are Williams' off season workouts going? Does Mbao knock over a table and then cry, if someone steals his desert at the training table? You think that you know what you're talking about, but unless you're on the MU basketball staff, you are not in any position to pick any of the four listed above over Short. Maybe Short will be an improvement over who goes, maybe Buzz will get it wrong, and he won't be. But, right or wrong, Buzz will have the benefit of at least ten times more information about each of these players then you do when the roster for next year works out.
You're trying to be diplomatic and its not working. Some players are better than others. For you to say a low rated desperation fill the roster signing in late May or may not be better than anyone else we have is nuts. Short is clearly not RATED as high as anyone else. If he works out, whoever signs him got lucky.
Clearly he is a downgrade over whoever might be leaving. Just admit the obvious.
P.S. I'm holding you too your claim that Deing will pay 20+ minutes a game for Louisville by February. Another crazy claim.
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You're trying to be diplomatic and its not working. Some players are better than others. For you to say a low rated desperation fill the roster signing in late May or may not be better than anyone else we have is nuts. Short is clearly not RATED as high as anyone else. If he works out, whoever signs him got lucky.
Clearly he is a downgrade over whoever might be leaving. Just admit the obvious.
P.S. I'm holding you too your claim that Deing will pay 20+ minutes a game for Louisville by February. Another crazy claim.
I completely agree.
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Short is clearly not RATED as high as anyone else. If he works out, whoever signs him got lucky.
Clearly he is a downgrade over whoever might be leaving. Just admit the obvious.
Going to have to disagree with you here, particularily the bold. Given that Short already has averaged 7ppg and 6 rebounds per game in Division 1 Basketball, I find it really hard to believe that he would be a downgrade over Mbao. Yous certainly may have some potential, shows good hands, quick feet, but I didn't see a whole lot besides that to lead me to believe Yous could ever be a 15ppg and 10 rebs per game guy. Short on the other hand, if given 3 years of development time..just based on what he did as a freshman in D-1 ball - I don't think that's a reach to double his scoring average/rebound average, albeit at the Big East lever versus low major ball.
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Going to have to disagree with you here, particularily the bold. Given that Short already has averaged 7ppg and 6 rebounds per game in Division 1 Basketball, I find it really hard to believe that he would be a downgrade over Mbao. Yous certainly may have some potential, shows good hands, quick feet, but I didn't see a whole lot besides that to lead me to believe Yous could ever be a 15ppg and 10 rebs per game guy. Short on the other hand, if given 3 years of development time..just based on what he did as a freshman in D-1 ball - I don't think that's a reach to double his scoring average/rebound average, albeit at the Big East lever versus low major ball.
This question isn't for you alone, but all the Mbao bashers... Unless we are talking career ending injury, isn't it Buzz's fault for bringing this kid to MU if he is so bad? Shouldn't Buzz have done his homework and known this prior to offering? Also, isn't there something to be said with sticking with and trying to develop a kid that you might have made a poor talent evaluation on, rather than bringing in someone else?
Also, since this is all speculative, would you rather have Yous and EWill on the team next yr, or Gardner and Short?? Im not arguing either way, just curious what you think since you have so many enlightening opinions
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Mbao was brought in late when McMorrow was unable to continue. both McMorrow and Mbao were recruited because of their height and potential.
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It's not a question who we'd rather have as it's not our decision. For this team to get better, Buzz has determined, and rightfully so, that he may need more than 6-7 contributors in the rotation.
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This question isn't for you alone, but all the Mbao bashers... Unless we are talking career ending injury, isn't it Buzz's fault for bringing this kid to MU if he is so bad? Shouldn't Buzz have done his homework and known this prior to offering? Also, isn't there something to be said with sticking with and trying to develop a kid that you might have made a poor talent evaluation on, rather than bringing in someone else?
Also, since this is all speculative, would you rather have Yous and EWill on the team next yr, or Gardner and Short?? Im not arguing either way, just curious what you think since you have so many enlightening opinions
From everything I've been able to glean from listening to Buzz, his feeling is that a player must hold up their end of the bargain to remain on scholarship - AND that has NOTHING to do with on court production. It has everything to do with: Is the player fully bought into the program, and doing all they can be doing to get better. I do feel that in this day and age of sensitivity and politcal correctness - there is nothing wrong with giving a kid a real world lesson at the college level, and that lesson is: earn your wage, or lose your spot. Lack of effort will not be tolerated. The same applies in the work world (at least in the private sector.) To teach this lesson at the college level has value.
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From everything I've been able to glean from listening to Buzz, his feeling is that a player must hold up their end of the bargain to remain on scholarship - AND that has NOTHING to do with on court production. It has everything to do with: Is the player fully bought into the program, and doing all they can be doing to get better. I do feel that in this day and age of sensitivity and politcal correctness - there is nothing wrong with giving a kid a real world lesson at the college level, and that lesson is: earn your wage, or lose your spot. Lack of effort will not be tolerated. The same applies in the work world (at least in the private sector.) To teach this lesson at the college level has value.
And you'd think this would be an easy lesson to pick up from a guy who got a nickname because he refused to stop putting in as much effort as he possibly could.
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And you'd think this would be an easy lesson to pick up from a guy who got a nickname because he refused to stop putting in as much effort as he possibly could.
Buzz is not a hypocrite, and I don't see him being the type of person who would: Do as I say, not as I do. From Buzz's perspective he realizes he's in a results business, and he's also paranoid enough to know that if he doesn't win, he's out of a job. From his perspective, I'm sure he feels I busted my a$$ to get this far, and I'm not gonna have it taken away from me as a result of a player I recruit, not giving me 100%.; He always says he is the steward of the program, and it is his responsibility to do what is best for the program...and for that:
In Buzz I trust.