Putting the pressure on....actually I think it's a good thing. They need to have these goals with this team.
I won't say Sweet 16 for sure (though WINN did) because it depends on the matchups, but interesting takes in his top 25 with plenty of things relating to the Big East, MU, IU, etc.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/luke_winn/07/08/2008-2009-fearless-basketball-predictions/?cnn=yes
Personally, I think that's a really dumb comment by Winn. Is MU much different than last year?? Pretty much the same team, aside from an extra year's experience. Otherwise, lost some nice parts to the team, while replacing it with pretty good talent. Kind of a wash.
So did Crean botch things by not making the Sweet 16 this year? Or, is it just really hard to make it? I'd take the latter.
And as you say, depends a lot on matchups.
Quote from: MUBasketball on July 16, 2008, 12:47:15 PM
Personally, I think that's a really dumb comment by Winn. Is MU much different than last year?? Pretty much the same team, aside from an extra year's experience. Otherwise, lost some nice parts to the team, while replacing it with pretty good talent. Kind of a wash.
So did Crean botch things by not making the Sweet 16 this year? Or, is it just really hard to make it? I'd take the latter.
And as you say, depends a lot on matchups.
I think if MU played just about any other 3 seed last year other then Stanford, they make the Sweet 16. As it was, they missed it by 1 second.
Tough predicting NCAA advancement until you see the pairings. Nevertheless, the expectations on this team for this year will be quite high nationally. Let's hope the boys are up for the task.
Quote from: MUBasketball on July 16, 2008, 12:47:15 PM
So did Crean botch things by not making the Sweet 16 this year? Or, is it just really hard to make it? I'd take the latter.
alright, i'll be the first to say it. yes Crean did botch things last year by not making the sweet 16. not only that, i think he botched his chance at the elite 8 considering we would have matched up well with Texas. I don't know how anyone out there could not say that Crean botched that stanford game
Quote from: MU gimp ONE on July 16, 2008, 12:52:33 PM
alright, i'll be the first to say it. yes Crean did botch things last year by not making the sweet 16. not only that, i think he botched his chance at the elite 8 considering we would have matched up well with Texas. I don't know how anyone out there could not say that Crean botched that stanford game
Probably because if Lopez doesn't hit a behind the backboard, turn-around, fadeaway jumper the words "botch" "crean" and "stanford" don't even show up in a power Google search.
Marquette was worthy of a Sweet 16 berth last season. This season, it should be expected regardless of matchups and regardless of the makeup of the team. The top 4 players on this team could be more experienced then any other BCS team's top 4. Barring injuries, that alone should negate any issues that arise this season.
Quote from: nola03 on July 16, 2008, 01:10:12 PM
the words "botch" "crean" and "stanford" don't even show up in a power Google search.
But now, thanks to this thread, in a few days MUScoop will be one of the top results for that search.
Crean botched big time alot of stuff, nevertheless his recent teams have been relatively successful. Buzz will botch stuff too, they will still be very successful. Sweet 16 depends on matchups and one days shooting percentages hot team etc. Mu will be very successful over the entire course of the season. Luke winn probably never picked up a basketball in his life. Knows nothing about Buzz's ability, will be one of the huge numbers of people looking to kiss his A$$ in a year or two claiming they were behind him or knew he would be good all along.
I hope Buzz is successful as hell, my statement from day 1. Don't try to change history. I just think MU took a gamble they didn't need to take. He's the coach of my alma mater, I'm behind Buzz and want nothing but the best for him, our school and our basketball program.
You gotta like this one from the article:
8. Illinois coach Bruce Weber will get a couple of extremely satisfying wins over Indiana this year.
It's very reasonable to say anything less than a Sweet 16 would be a disappointment for this team, regardless of the matchup.
That said, to say that coming up short of that would equal Buzz "seriously botching" things seems a bit unfair. Buzz could create a brilliant gameplan and make all the right in-game adjustments and it probably wouldn't matter a bit of the Three Amigos shoot 12-for-41 and commit 12 turnovers.
Certainly Buzz botching things could be the cause of MU falling short of the Sweet 16, but it's hardly the only possibility.
Botched isn't the right word. More accurately the word that comes to mind rhymes with ducked and sucked.
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on July 16, 2008, 02:38:27 PM
You gotta like this one from the article:
8. Illinois coach Bruce Weber will get a couple of extremely satisfying wins over Indiana this year.
Ha!
That would be like edging out an 11-year-old girl in a chugging competiton then calling your win "extremely satisfying."
It all comes down to match-ups. They were showing that shot on NBA draft night as part of the Lopez highlight package. Every time they showed it, it looked tougher. A strong case can be made that TC did not have his guards pressuring the Cardinal guards enough, making it far too easy for them to throw the same $%#$^%#$ entry pass over and over again like a basketball version of 'Groundhog Day'. One shot, the difference between an extremely successful season and a merely good one. And yes, on paper, we are a year more experienced, Mbakwe could well be better inside than Ooze, Fulce and Butler should give us more than Fitz, and Otule will surely give us more than Blackledge. So, unless a nightmare matchup hits us, or injuries, or senioritis, or Buzz can't coach, sweet 16 is a reasonable expectation.
Ultimate Crean Botch?
Missing out of the NCAAs after getting to the Final Four.
Talk about a SUCKY result.
Blame whoever you want, but we did not make the Sweet 16, because we gave away a home victory over Georgetown. Win that game and we would have been seeded higher than 6th.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 16, 2008, 02:51:06 PM
Botched isn't the right word. More accurately the that comes to mind rhymes with ducked and sucked.
plucked?
untucked?
trucked?
clucked?
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 16, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
Ultimate Crean Botch?
Missing out of the NCAAs after getting to the Final Four.
Talk about a SUCKY result.
A feat shared by many programs and coaches like Bobby Knight at IU, Jim Valvano at NC State, Denny Crum at Louisville, etc, etc.
a feat caused by so numerous woeful recruiting classes and becuse players and coaches were fleeing the program and not just players looking for playing time elsewhere. His inability to recruit to Mu sans two good classes and his boorish personality have been replaced by a true recruiter, fans will quickly see that Buzz's first two classes are eaqual to anything Crean compiled and he is the complete 180 personality wise of our former coach. If Crean was half as good as he sold himself tobe his numbers and accomplishments would be alot more impressive. But you see when you are selling yourself 24/7 for a better opportunity you tend to overhype your results and attempt to make yourself the face of the program. Good riddance your slow painful demise at IU will be enjoyed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 16, 2008, 05:16:33 PM
A feat shared by many programs and coaches like Bobby Knight at IU, Jim Valvano at NC State, Denny Crum at Louisville, etc, etc.
I think he was talking about the year after. Not many teams have done this. I know there are a few (Minnesota the year after Bobby Jackson and LSU a couple years ago come to mind), but there aren't a lot.
Quote from: bilsu on July 16, 2008, 04:46:31 PM
Blame whoever you want, but we did not make the Sweet 16, because we gave away a home victory over Georgetown. Win that game and we would have been seeded higher than 6th.
Exactly, the best way to get to a sweet 16 is to be a 1-4 seed. Getting there is depends on if our team will be at least a few baskets a game better:
1) a healthy sophmore version of TM
2) a hungry heavily experienced Lazar
3) the addition of fluce
4) continued development of burke
4) the mini three all as despirate senior versions of themselves.
5) the addion of butler.
6) people worry about his shoulders but DC can't be worse than he was at the end of the year so he's either a wash or a step up.
7) Chris Otule
Ouse could be a loss just because of lack of size, but I think burk will be more reliable.
I would say the first one alone is going to more than make up for the loss of fitz or trend. Doesn't everyone?
It's a team that I should be improved and good for a few extra stops, reb or buckets if Buzz is an above avg xo guy.
And if we were a basket or two better in several games (Duke, ND, GU, pause to bash head on wall, pitt and stanford) we would have made the sweet 16. At the end of the year I'm hopeing that we are at least being put in the mix for a 1-4 seed. It doesn't seem like it would take that much for us to make that jump.
Quote from: jmayer1 on July 16, 2008, 06:50:13 PM
I think he was talking about the year after. Not many teams have done this. I know there are a few (Minnesota the year after Bobby Jackson and LSU a couple years ago come to mind), but there aren't a lot.
Yup, that's what I was referencing. Indiana failed to make it to the NCAAs th eyear after the Final Four under Knight. NC State failed...TWICE to do it after two Final Fours. Minnesota recently. Louisville and Maryland I believe did also (going off memory). Quite a number of elite teams that made the Final Four (some even won the whole enchilada) didn't make it to the NCAAs the very next year....Kansas was one of those teams. I used to have the list, if I find it I'll post it. Some big named teams with some big named coaches that didn't make the NCAAs the year after their Final Four run.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 16, 2008, 07:05:14 PM
Yup, that's what I was referencing. Indiana failed to make it to the NCAAs th eyear after the Final Four under Knight. NC State failed...TWICE to do it after two Final Fours. Minnesota recently. Louisville and Maryland I believe did also (going off memory). Quite a number of elite teams that made the Final Four (some even won the whole enchilada) didn't make it to the NCAAs the very next year....Kansas was one of those teams. I used to have the list, if I find it I'll post it. Some big named teams with some big named coaches that didn't make the NCAAs the year after their Final Four run.
Out of the 8 Final Four appearances they've had, Louisville has failed to maker the tournament the next year 5 times including two where they didn't even make the post season. Of course, some of those were in the era prior to at large bids.
1959 Final Four - 1960 No Postseason
1972 Final Four - 1973 NIT(Not Eligible)
1975 Final Four - 1976 NIT
1986 National Champion - 1987 No Postseason
2005 Final Four - 2006 NIT
Indiana has done it 3 times, twice under Bobby Knight, once under Branch McCracken. Knight's first miss was back in the era when only one team from each conference could make it, so despite sharing the Big Ten title they were not eligible for the NCAA. The rule was changed the next year:
1940 National Champion - 1941 No Postseason(not eligible for NCAA)
1973 Final Four - 1974 CCAT Champions(not eligible for NCAA)
1976 National Champion - 1977 No Postseaon
Maryland doesn't make the list. They made the Final Four in 2001, and came back to win the title in 2002. In 2003 they made the Sweet Sixteen.
Wow how quickly we forget.
The 2007 title game was between Florida and Ohio State.
Anybody remember what they were seeded in the 2008 Tournament? ::)
It does happen folks but if it fits your agenda to think Crean is the only good coach to miss after a final 4 then keep on keeping on.............
Thanks BMA....as I said, going off memory. I thought Maryland was one. Kansas won the title and didn't make the following year. As Mark states, last year's runner-up and national champion didn't make it this year.
Happens quite frequently and to some top notch coaches. In some cases it was the years of limited bids, some due to injuries, some due to probation, some due to inexperience and losses of key players.
In 1979 it happened to some unknown school called Kentucky after winning the title in 1978. ;)
In 1975, NC State didn't make it despite beating Marquette the year before to win the national title.
There are many other examples as well.
I stand corrected. I thought when MU missed the tourney, I remembered hearing there were only like 4 teams that missed the tourney the year after the final four since the 64(5) team format began in the mid 80s (at that time). MU lost a lot after the Final Four (2 of 3, if not the 2 best players) but it was disappointing that they couldn't regroup and make the tourney either of the next two years (of course Dieners injury had something to do with that but they were still a bubble team that year and not a lock).
We lost our two best players and then the best remaining got hurt the next year. We would have made it had it not been for that injury. Crean was just starting to establish himself and hadn't made the recruiting inroads he had later on while here so the depth hadn't been built up yet. I don't see how anyone can think that this was a huge failure of his coaching. It's more of CHS (crean hatred syndrome).
Quote from: RawdogDX on July 16, 2008, 06:56:46 PM
Exactly, the best way to get to a sweet 16 is to be a 1-4 seed. Getting there is depends on if our team will be at least a few baskets a game better:
1) a healthy sophmore version of TM
2) a hungry heavily experienced Lazar
3) the addition of fluce
4) continued development of burke
4) the mini three all as despirate senior versions of themselves.
5) the addion of butler.
6) people worry about his shoulders but DC can't be worse than he was at the end of the year so he's either a wash or a step up.
7) Chris Otule
Ouse could be a loss just because of lack of size, but I think burk will be more reliable.
I would say the first one alone is going to more than make up for the loss of fitz or trend. Doesn't everyone?
It's a team that I should be improved and good for a few extra stops, reb or buckets if Buzz is an above avg xo guy.
And if we were a basket or two better in several games (Duke, ND, GU, pause to bash head on wall, pitt and stanford) we would have made the sweet 16. At the end of the year I'm hopeing that we are at least being put in the mix for a 1-4 seed. It doesn't seem like it would take that much for us to make that jump.
I have to agree with Rawdog here. Yes anything can happen during the tournament but the expectations of this team is that it has the makings of a top 10-15 team. That would be a 3-4 seed. If MU gets a 3-4 seed, the likelihood of them advancing to the Sweet 16 is a lot greater than if they were to get a 6 seed. If we get a 6 seed this year, then Buzz did indeed botch this season with the exception being multiple season ending injuries to a couple of starters. Upsets in tournies happen every year. I would not consider it a botch if we get a 3-4 seed and happen to lose to a hot team in the second round and I while I can't speak for Winn, I have to think that his underlying point is that MU has a very talented team that should be very successful this year. Failure to contend for the Big East title and get a high seed in the tourny would be a huge botch.
Wow - the BEast is bigger and badder than ever though - our ecedule is good, but there are many many tough teams in the BEast - and they think the BEast will get 9 teams or more in the tourney - that is one mighty deep conference. No easy rides there, so we will be challenged every game. I think we can compete well, and maybe take it, but no smooth road.
I think MU goes to sweet 16 if they make the tournament. What worries me is the the strenght of the Big East. A very good team could finish in the bottom half of that conference and not get an NCAA bid.
Quote from: bilsu on July 18, 2008, 01:28:47 AM
I think MU goes to sweet 16 if they make the tournament. What worries me is the the strenght of the Big East. A very good team could finish in the bottom half of that conference and not get an NCAA bid.
Enough whining. Everyone wanted to join a real conference. Now that MU is part of one of the top conferences I read about how tough it is.
If MU can not get it done this year with the team that has been assembled there are major questions to be asked. One of those questions should not be "is the Big East to strong for MU to compete in."
My personal opinion is that the class of the Big East this year will be Louisville and UConn. Marquette will fall in the second tier of schools with the potential of finishing anywhere from third through seventh in the Big East.
Last year's NCAA seeds: GTown (2), UL (3), UConn (4), Pitt (4), ND (5), MU (6), etc...
If they finish third or fourth in the BE, that probably means a four seed in the tournament, especially since there will be a lot of hype about how tough the BE is this year. (and it will be)
I'm unconvinced that this team is substantially different than last year's team and think some things will need to break right to finish in the top four in the conference. Even getting a 1-4 seed doesn't guarantee playing the second weekend of the tournament. As a result, S16 is more of a stretch goal, IMO.
The key for seeding in the tourny will be the preconference schedule. The Big East will have to win more than its fair share against the Big 10, ACC, Pac 10 and SEC if we want to be viewed as the number one conference in the land. If the Big East can dominate in November and December, not only will the teams in the Big East get higher seedings in the tourny but we will get 9 teams in the tourny as well.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on July 18, 2008, 09:13:40 AM
My personal opinion is that the class of the Big East this year will be Louisville and UConn. Marquette will fall in the second tier of schools with the potential of finishing anywhere from third through seventh in the Big East.
Last year's NCAA seeds: GTown (2), UL (3), UConn (4), Pitt (4), ND (5), MU (6), etc...
If they finish third or fourth in the BE, that probably means a four seed in the tournament, especially since there will be a lot of hype about how tough the BE is this year. (and it will be)
I'm unconvinced that this team is substantially different than last year's team and think some things will need to break right to finish in the top four in the conference. Even getting a 1-4 seed doesn't guarantee playing the second weekend of the tournament. As a result, S16 is more of a stretch goal, IMO.
Totally agree on UL and UCONN. UL has 4 starters back plus what some people are saying is the #1 recruit in the country coming in. They are going to be a load. UCONN has tremendous size and will be very good. MU will be in the next tier.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 16, 2008, 05:16:33 PM
A feat shared by many programs and coaches like Bobby Knight at IU, Jim Valvano at NC State, Denny Crum at Louisville, etc, etc.
Such an illustrious bunch...but you can't put Crean in that group. It's sacrilege.
They've won titles.
AND they've stayed with their championship winning school longer than Crean did with MU.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 16, 2008, 01:17:51 PM
But now, thanks to this thread, in a few days MUScoop will be one of the top results for that search.
And it shall be so. This thread is currently the #1 result for a google search for Crean and Botch.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on July 16, 2008, 05:57:27 PM
a feat caused by so numerous woeful recruiting classes and becuse players and coaches were fleeing the program and not just players looking for playing time elsewhere. His inability to recruit to Mu sans two good classes and his boorish personality have been replaced by a true recruiter, fans will quickly see that Buzz's first two classes are eaqual to anything Crean compiled and he is the complete 180 personality wise of our former coach. If Crean was half as good as he sold himself tobe his numbers and accomplishments would be alot more impressive. But you see when you are selling yourself 24/7 for a better opportunity you tend to overhype your results and attempt to make yourself the face of the program. Good riddance your slow painful demise at IU will be enjoyed.
I think you're a bit harsh on Crean. No coach in a similar situation would have been able to sustain recruting at MU post 2003. Schools like MU almost always lost successful coaches. We were equivalent to Xavier, Butler, etc. There were nearly unanimous expectations that Crean would be gone after the 2003 season. No quality recruit gave MU the time of day because the weren't sure who the coach would be.
IMO it took two more seasons for recruits to gain any trust that Crean wasn't an immedeate departure threat.
BTW, if Buzz' coaching is anywhere near his recruiting, we will have a terrible recruiting year for 2010-11. Three years of success, and there is no chance that quality recruit will expect Buzz to last at MU another season.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 18, 2008, 12:24:46 PM
Such an illustrious bunch...but you can't put Crean in that group. It's sacrilege.
They've won titles.
AND they've stayed with their championship winning school longer than Crean did with MU.
Not all of them....the fact that some of the champions didn't make it the following year to me lends even more slack for the fact we didn't make it. If a champion can't make it back the next year, then certainly a Final Four team is going to miss it from time to time.
If I find the entire list you will see many that weren't champions but still had strong coaches.
Prediction...Crean will make it back to the Final Four again....within the next 8 years would be my guess. He's going to have a helluva a hole to dig out of first.
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 18, 2008, 06:43:01 PM
I think you're a bit harsh on Crean. No coach in a similar situation would have been able to sustain recruting at MU post 2003. Schools like MU almost always lost successful coaches. We were equivalent to Xavier, Butler, etc. There were nearly unanimous expectations that Crean would be gone after the 2003 season. No quality recruit gave MU the time of day because the weren't sure who the coach would be.
IMO it took two more seasons for recruits to gain any trust that Crean wasn't an immedeate departure threat.
BTW, if Buzz' coaching is anywhere near his recruiting, we will have a terrible recruiting year for 2010-11. Three years of success, and there is no chance that quality recruit will expect Buzz to last at MU another season.
Very well said...in fact, if he does what Crean did and take us to multiple NCAA bids, a Texas opening will come up and many will wonder if he's leaving. Then those that are blowing him today will call him Satan and the likes...won't that be fun.
Coaches leave, it's part of the deal....they even leave Kansas, they even leave UCLA, they even leave Kentucky. That's the way it is.
PS I'll gladly blow Buzz as well, but if he leaves I'm not going to call him Benedict Arnold or all the other goofiness that goes on here. 9 years is a ton. I'd be thrilled if Buzz gave us 9 years (because it means he did a good job) but I don't expect it in today's day and age at a school like MU.
We all hate when good coaches leave, but that is part of the game. I am hopeing Buzz does great at MU and wants to give it a long shot. But he's only 35. I don't think he's staying here 25 or 30 years! But then, who knows. It happens. Could just be the right place.
But . . . in the meantime, I am hoping to enjoy the ride, and I hope it's a great and long one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 18, 2008, 07:10:51 PM
Very well said...in fact, if he does what Crean did and take us to multiple NCAA bids, a Texas opening will come up and many will wonder if he's leaving. Then those that are blowing him today will call him Satan and the likes...won't that be fun.
Coaches leave, it's part of the deal....they even leave Kansas, they even leave UCLA, they even leave Kentucky. That's the way it is.
But they don't leave a voice message telling their current employer that they have left.
Get it through your head Chico, it isn't that he left. Most of us are happy he left, since we have discovered that he truly felt he took Marquette as far as he could. No it is just the way that he did it. And he didn't even man up about making a mistake, instead throwing Joani under the bus, saying it was all because she had the flu. He is no better than HGH biy Clemens, saying the drugs were for his wife.
Man up, Tommy, and admit YOU made a mistake in the way you handled it, instead of blaming everyone else.
If Buzz succeeds and goes to greener pastures, great for him. Just don't do it in the middle of the night, ala Irsay.
For the most part, people don't blame Crean for leaving. They are angry and upset with themselves for pretending to like such a douche bag all this time -- and I include the players in that assessment. Nobody with even an ounce of judgement in people could embrace that horse's ass.
If Buzz leaves after a few years, fare thee well. At least we'll never find him in a tanning salon or having his hair styled for $100 a pop.
Crean will not make a Final Four in 8 years. With any luck, he'll fall flat on his face. My prediction...he'll be at Indiana for about 10 years and peak with a Sweet 16 if he's lucky.
One thing is for sure...Crean is taking notes on what is going on now and he'll repeat it (and embellish it) over and over and over again until guys like Jay Bilas start believing it. That way, when he does get his egotistical ass fired, the media will back him.
I am going to be both naive ( in this modern sports world) and optimistic that Buzz stays at Marquette for a very long time and reestablishes a tradtion of staying at a school a long time similar to Dean Smith at UNC rather than wanting his name to be mentioned at every new coaching job. I know we cannot compare MU to UNC but perhaps , for a change, Buzz will surprise everyone and if he is successful, resist the lure of other offers and stay with the school that gave him a great opportunity.
Of course, if he is not successful, I reserve the right to be a hypocrite and call for his head :)
Quote from: detroitwarrior on July 18, 2008, 10:03:10 PM
I am going to be both naive ( in this modern sports world) and optimistic that Buzz stays at Marquette for a very long time and reestablishes a tradtion of staying at a school a long time similar to Dean Smith at UNC rather than wanting his name to be mentioned at every new coaching job. I know we cannot compare MU to UNC but perhaps , for a change, Buzz will surprise everyone and if he is successful, resist the lure of other offers and stay with the school that gave him a great opportunity.
Of course, if he is not successful, I reserve the right to be a hypocrite and call for his head :)
Consider it DULY NOTED.
;)
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 18, 2008, 06:33:06 PM
And it shall be so. This thread is currently the #1 result for a google search for Crean and Botch.
Let it be known...what you post here *will* show up in google searches. Heck, search for botch and Stanford and we're the #3 hit. Botch and Marquette is #1 too.
I guess we've got a new slogan: Post on MUScoop, get famous on Google.
(note to self: search for "get famous on google" in a few days).
Anyhow, back to regularly scheduled programming....is Crean still at IU? I didn't even know they had a basketball program anymore. Thought that died off months ago...you learn something new every day.
Quote from: RawdogDX on July 17, 2008, 01:08:13 PM
We lost our two best players and then the best remaining got hurt the next year. We would have made it had it not been for that injury. Crean was just starting to establish himself and hadn't made the recruiting inroads he had later on while here so the depth hadn't been built up yet. I don't see how anyone can think that this was a huge failure of his coaching. It's more of CHS (crean hatred syndrome).
So...he could make in roads for a Final 4 team but two years later he loses one player to injury and he gets embarrassed at home by Western Mich in the NIT? How does he not have depth in years 5 and 6...oh yeah, I remember, he was running off players and assistants left and right.
It's more of CIS (Crean Infatuation Syndrome).
Move on, the dude left you and he ain't coming back.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 18, 2008, 08:16:46 PM
But they don't leave a voice message telling their current employer that they have left.
Get it through your head Chico, it isn't that he left. Most of us are happy he left, since we have discovered that he truly felt he took Marquette as far as he could. No it is just the way that he did it. And he didn't even man up about making a mistake, instead throwing Joani under the bus, saying it was all because she had the flu. He is no better than HGH biy Clemens, saying the drugs were for his wife.
Man up, Tommy, and admit YOU made a mistake in the way you handled it, instead of blaming everyone else.
If Buzz succeeds and goes to greener pastures, great for him. Just don't do it in the middle of the night, ala Irsay.
+1
I was a big Crean guy while he was here and still think he did many great things for the program, but the way he left was cowardly.
The self righteousness that remains with many MU fans in these forums over Crean's departure hits two rare emotions at once: amusing and slightly pathetic.
First, about the thread, I think our team has the ability to make a run at the tourney. I would agree with many others here that UL will be the top team to beat. As we all know, the KEY in the Big East is holding home court and scrapping in some road wins. A sweep of our home schedule is more than doable. We are going to need some road wins. I think our best chance of winning a big game is Notre Dame. We should have beat them last year (if Blacklege knew who to catch) and they will be beatable this year. I think Marquette will be a top tier team in the Big East and should get a good seed. But as we all know anything can happen in the Big Dance.
As to Crean, I am holding my position which is 6 years max. I think Indiana will struggle alot in a well developing Big 10 (MSU and WI always solid, OSU is a ?, and IL and MN are on rise). I am a Notre Dame football fan and I know that schools and fans from winning programs put a ton of pressure on the coach to succeed and there are no excuses. I think in year three he will on the hot seat. Can you imagine Crean on the sidelines in a close game when he knows his job is on the line? I can't wait for the "It's UIPUI... It's UIPUI"
Speaking of pathetic (not amusing). Player Development: It has been said that one of the main reasons OB left MU was because he felt coach "ME" had little to offer him in terms of development. (If correct, it seems pretty visionary to me.) I'm not saying OB's decision to leave was correct, but I sure could understand that thinking. Coaching: The last five minutes of the Stanford game were abysmal inspite of coach "ME" 's 6 inch thick play book, motivational speakers, karate classes, high altitude work outs, etc. To me this was signature Tommy Tan.
Thanks for the reassurance that Tommy isn't coming back.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 18, 2008, 08:16:46 PM
But they don't leave a voice message telling their current employer that they have left.
Get it through your head Chico, it isn't that he left. Most of us are happy he left, since we have discovered that he truly felt he took Marquette as far as he could. No it is just the way that he did it. And he didn't even man up about making a mistake, instead throwing Joani under the bus, saying it was all because she had the flu. He is no better than HGH biy Clemens, saying the drugs were for his wife.
Man up, Tommy, and admit YOU made a mistake in the way you handled it, instead of blaming everyone else.
If Buzz succeeds and goes to greener pastures, great for him. Just don't do it in the middle of the night, ala Irsay.
I don't think there's anyway any coach leaves that some people don't get all jilted up like their prom date left them.
Just my opinion. Fans are consumed with their team and they can't understand why a coach would leave a place they love more than anything. By the way, I believe Crean has said on multiple occasions that the way he informed folks wasn't the best way of doing things, plenty of interviews on it. It's over, it's been months now and people are still hung up on this.
Coaches come and coaches go, more so at a place like MU.
Quote from: wampum77 on July 19, 2008, 09:53:56 AM
Speaking of pathetic (not amusing). Player Development: It has been said that one of the main reasons OB left MU was because he felt coach "ME" had little to offer him in terms of development. (If correct, it seems pretty visionary to me.) I'm not saying OB's decision to leave was correct, but I sure could understand that thinking. Coaching: The last five minutes of the Stanford game were abysmal inspite of coach "ME" 's 6 inch thick play book, motivational speakers, karate classes, high altitude work outs, etc. To me this was signature Tommy Tan.
Thanks for the reassurance that Tommy isn't coming back.
That begs the question...how did OB develop at UNLV. I think that pretty much ends that story. OB wanted to be the showcase player and Crean was right to build the offense around Wade. OB wanted to show his range for the NBA scouts (which he tried to do at UNLV and failed to do it there as well).
ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player.
Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs
Quote from: mviale on July 19, 2008, 10:48:17 AM
ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player.
Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs
Not really....look deeper into the statistics (look at the competition). I watched him a lot out here on west coast tv. His 3 point shot never came around. I remember his senior year thinking how unfortunate it was. His junior year he tried to go pro but pulled out of the draft because there was just no way it was going to happen. So he was set to have this monster senior season and he actually got worse if I recall....just about every major category.
He was a me first player and that was exemplified at UNLV. Very few assists, never met a shot he didn't like to take.
ODB had the NBA dream but not the right skills. His posse was telling him he needed to be showcased. He was at UNLV, a soft conference where he put up 17 points per game but he was never going to make it. He did what he thought was right for him, but he missed out on a ring.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on July 19, 2008, 12:34:17 AM
So...he could make in roads for a Final 4 team but two years later he loses one player to injury and he gets embarrassed at home by Western Mich in the NIT? How does he not have depth in years 5 and 6...oh yeah, I remember, he was running off players and assistants left and right.
It's more of CIS (Crean Infatuation Syndrome).
Move on, the dude left you and he ain't coming back.
Awww.... Come on DCK, we went over this 3 weeks ago. ::)
//http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9249.msg78716#msg78716
You were blasting Crean in multiple non-Crean related threads at the time.
Please don't jump up on the soap box now and imply other people (specifically people that liked Crean) need to move on.
I think that might be the definition of hypocrisy.
What was that thing someone said that Crean blamed how he handled the position change on his wife having the flu? I never heard about that, is that the truth? How would that have to do with anything?
Quote from: wampum77 on July 19, 2008, 09:53:56 AM
Speaking of pathetic (not amusing). Player Development: It has been said that one of the main reasons OB left MU was because he felt coach "ME" had little to offer him in terms of development. (If correct, it seems pretty visionary to me.) I'm not saying OB's decision to leave was correct, but I sure could understand that thinking. Coaching: The last five minutes of the Stanford game were abysmal inspite of coach "ME" 's 6 inch thick play book, motivational speakers, karate classes, high altitude work outs, etc. To me this was signature Tommy Tan.
Thanks for the reassurance that Tommy isn't coming back.
ODB left because his AAU coach and others in Illinois convionced him he was never going to make the NBA playing in Dwyane Wade's shadow and in a system in which he was, at best, the third option.
These arguments, with all due respect, are
retarded.
Tom Crean produced more NBA (or NBA-bound) talent out of Marquette than any coach not named McGuire. And he did it by and large with kids who, when they arrived on campus, were not seen as NBA players.
In the last three months, I've learned here that:
1. Tom Crean couldn't recruit
2. Tom Crean couldn't coach
3. Tom Crean was universally despised
4. Tom Crean did nothing for Marquette University, only for himself
And yet, despite all this ...
5. During Tom Crean's tenure, Marquette basketball averaged 21 wins per season (23 when he started bringing in his own players), went to five NCAA tournaments in the last seven years, appeared in a Final Four, saw its attendance grow significantly, was invited to the premiere basketball conference in the nation and built one of the best practice facilities in the country.
Apparently TC is the luckiest man on the planet to have so much accomplished during his time at MU despite his complete and utter dearth of coaching, recruiting and people skills.
Once again, some of you are acting like jilted boyfriends whose response to getting dumped is "I never liked the ugly skank anyways."
I agree with everything you say. I don't know why we have to bash Crean. If Buzz was able to just equal Crean's accomplishments that would be fine by me. One of the reasons I'm so encouraged by the recent recruiting class and some of the info coming out about the team is NOT that I think it proves Buzz can be so much better than Crean. To me it makes me feel that he might not be A STEP DOWN from Crean. That's what I was worried about 3 months ago. If Buzz has similiar success as TC only with his own spin to it he will be here 7 years from now and while I'm sure we'll all be complaining about a few things he could do differently, I don't see how anyone could be mad. Just keep those top half of BE, top 25 most of the year, NCAA berth seasons coming.
Quote from: mviale on July 19, 2008, 10:48:17 AM
ODB did do well at UNLV - from a 8/6 player to a 18/10 player.
Maybe he didnt want to be relegated to TC's doghouse - ala david diggs
Blankson would have been better off staying at MU. However, I do think Crean would put players in dog house and it was almost impossible for them to get out. I think this more often occurred with backcourt players and then they would see little or no playing time. I do not think he was in the dog house, but I could never understand how a player like Lott can start out the season starting and end up not playing at all by seasons end.
Quote from: 2002mualum on July 19, 2008, 11:27:46 AM
Awww.... Come on DCK, we went over this 3 weeks ago. ::)
//http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9249.msg78716#msg78716
You were blasting Crean in multiple non-Crean related threads at the time.
Please don't jump up on the soap box now and imply other people (specifically people that liked Crean) need to move on.
I think that might be the definition of hypocrisy.
02 your level of obsession with me borders on unnerving. Finding 3 week old posts? You need a hobby.
Pakuni, you're right in reinforcing the good that Crean did while he was here.
But I guess some of us had higher expectations.
And the same will continue under Buzz.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 20, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
Pakuni, you're right in reinforcing the good that Crean did while he was here.
But I guess some of us had higher expectations.
And the same will continue under Buzz.
If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 20, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.
You forgot Villanova in your list of schools. While Crean did a good job, I do not think the argument that MU doesn't have a football team or it gets cold in the winter are valid excuses for inabilty to coach or recruit at the absolutely highest levels. Urban is a plus probably to most recruits. Also, i think the fact there is a religious background to MU either doesn't matter or is likely a plus. What it really comes down to is the coach and the coach's personality. Georgetown is a good example; Memphis is another. MU had plateaued under Crean. What I like about Buzz is that he doesn't see the ceiling.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2008, 10:37:00 AM
I don't think there's anyway any coach leaves that some people don't get all jilted up like their prom date left them.
Just my opinion. Fans are consumed with their team and they can't understand why a coach would leave a place they love more than anything. By the way, I believe Crean has said on multiple occasions that the way he informed folks wasn't the best way of doing things, plenty of interviews on it. It's over, it's been months now and people are still hung up on this.
Coaches come and coaches go, more so at a place like MU.
I have been, still am, and always will be thrilled T-Cubed left.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2008, 10:37:00 AM
By the way, I believe Crean has said on multiple occasions that the way he informed folks wasn't the best way of doing things, plenty of interviews on it. It's over, it's been months now and people are still hung up on this.
Well, by that logic, as long as an ax murderer admits that he murdered several people with an ax, then he should be free to go. I tell ya', it's a refreshing world we live in.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on July 19, 2008, 05:23:55 PM
02 your level of obsession with me borders on unnerving. Finding 3 week old posts? You need a hobby.
Come on, dude.
I remembered the conversation/exchange we had and I went back and looked it up (took about 5 min).
When you put your thoughts in writing, be prepared to have them thrown back in your face. Own it.
You got called out for being a hypocrite. I used your own posts as evidence. Those who live in glass houses...
Don't comeback with something weaksauce like "you need a hobby". That's terrible, and you know it.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2008, 12:43:29 AM
Well, by that logic, as long as an ax murderer admits that he murdered several people with an ax, then he should be free to go. I tell ya', it's a refreshing world we live in.
How Tom Crean handled his departure is exactly analagous to chopping up another human being with an ax.
Outstanding.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 20, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
If you had higher expectations, then you also probably had unrealistic expectations.
Take a look at the college basketball landscape of today and tell me how many 1) private, 2) religious, 3) urban 4) non-football playing, 5) cold-weather universities are faring much better, or any better, than Marquette has since 2000. One could argue - perhaps - Georgetown and Xavier. And G'Town's success this decade has been only in the past few seasons and Xavier, while consistently very good, has not reached the heights MU has this decade in terms of a Final Four appearance or national recognition.
Almost all the other schools similarly situated to MU, i.e. DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Detroit, Loyola, St. Louis, Temple, have been El Stinko for the better part of the last decade. And people tend to forget that's where Marquette was trending prior to Tom Crean's arrival.
Crean was far from perfect, but he did a helluva a lot more good for MU than he's been given credit around here over the past few months and what negatives he did bring to the table have been vastly overstated.
How about Notre Dame
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 20, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
But I guess some of us had higher expectations.
So in the summer of 2002 you were sitting around thinking: "If over the next 7 years crean makes 5 NCAA's, gets us moved to a top conference, avgs a top 4 finish in that coference, wins 20+ games a year and makes 1 final four but then leaves for indiana, that will be disapointing."
I think your expectations continued to grow because of crean(as they should), not inspite of them. And that is a coaches job to keep the general state of a program getting better.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 21, 2008, 08:38:22 AM
How Tom Crean handled his departure is exactly analagous to chopping up another human being with an ax.
Pakuni, you're smart enough to know that the analogy is not in the actions, but rather people's reactions to the actions. Let me give a few more examples so that you may perhaps grasp the concept....
If you're a peon in a large company, and the CEO has been selling trade secrets on the side - should you forgive him as soon as he admits that he's been doing it?
If your child admits that he's been doing drugs, do you immediately give him a pass just because he came forward with it?
If your long time Karate instructor packs up and closes his business the night before your lesson, and then sends you a letter after the fact explaining that he cannot afford to give you a refund because he's going bankrupt, Do you go back to the same instructor when he opens a new business 3 months later with higher prices?
As I said, the analogy is not in the exact action of these people, but rather an individuals reaction to those actions. Let me share my reactions with you:
Ax murderer - He goes to jail. I would never associate with him after he got out.
CEO - I would never work for a company that he's leading again.
Child - I'd try to help him with his problem, but he's still have lost my trust and be under more scrutiny for a long while.
Karate instructor - He would lose my trust and business forever. I'd find a new one and hope that he deals with his clients more appropriately.
Chicos original post that I replied to seemed to indicate that just because Crean admitted that he did things incorrectly when he left - we should immediately (within a few months) be able to get over it. F that - the guy screwed MU over, I am a part of the MU community (or so they keep telling me), so I think it's well within my rights to hold a grudge for a while.
So...now I'm arguing with you over a point that I was refuting to Chicos, but the point remains the same. I hope Marquette ends up better as a result of all this, but that doesn't mean my (or anyone's) distrust of TC should just vanish because he admitted he did something wrong. 'nuff said.
Screwed us over! Yeah we are so screwed over right now! We have a top 25 team with a ton of senior leader ship, doesn't that suck! And we have a new coach who just recruited a top 25 class in a few months! I really wish Crean would have left before finding us such a capable replacement!
How are we 'screwed'?
And for all your other examples none of them make sense.
If your mother reveals she hasn't been your mother all your life, but actually your mother's twin sister and poisons your dad, then leaves with her new lesbian lover who actually happens to be your wife, would you have thanksgiving dinner with them, kenny g and Satan just two months later?
NO, and that's why we should all hate crean!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2008, 10:03:50 AM
Pakuni, you're smart enough to know that the analogy is not in the actions, but rather people's reactions to the actions. Let me give a few more examples so that you may perhaps grasp the concept....
I'm also smart enough to know that people's reactions to the actions should be relative to the actions themselves.
Tom Crean admitting his mistakes in making an inglorious departure from Marquette should not be reacted to the same as Jason Voohrees admitting he may have gone a bit overboard in killing a dozen oversexed teens at Camp Crystal Lake.
Seriously, I fail to see why people continue to be so wounded by Tom Crean's departure. He did not wrong any of you in any way. If the players/administration want to feel wrong by the way he left, that's their perogative. But you and other fans were not victimized here. The whole trust argument here is laughable. How exactly did he betray your trust?
Tom Crean owed you nothing more than to do the best job he could as MU basketball coach while he was MU basketball coach.
I should have known better than to start this argument. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I assume I'll be immediately forgiven :)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2008, 10:38:35 AM
I should have known better than to start this argument. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I assume I'll be immediately forgiven :)
Forgiven? Well tell me this:
If you were camping and a pack of blood thirsty yettis attacked you...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2008, 10:38:35 AM
I should have known better than to start this argument. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I assume I'll be immediately forgiven :)
No.. apparently you have to throw a thanksgiving dinner for your lesbian ex-wife, kenny g, and satan first ?-(
But I agree with rocky.. we got screwed a bit and I'm one less supporter in Crean's camp as a result. since we're all into (italicized) analogies here it's like
you buy a $25k diamond ring and propose to your girlfriend (she somehow says yes) and the next day you drive to work and find out your badge doesn't work.. you check with the security guard and he says "oh yeah.. we cut you last night".The company might have set you up with an awesome resume, but you still gotta find a job to pay off the credit card charge for the $25k ring and quick. Not that you can't but you're fairly guaranteed at least a week or two of lost wages and the risk that you may have to return the ring and get dumped by the fiance. While it was completely within their rights to let you go the way they did, the company screwed ya (no matter the fact that you probably will recover quickly).
It was completely within Crean's rights to dump MU the way he did but he still screwed us. We had a top 25 team on the plate but had to scramble to get a good replacement coach so we could keep it in the top 25 and not lose any members of it or any potential for it. Sorry, but I wouldn't accept him as a head coach of my team again in the future.
Quote from: spiral97 on July 21, 2008, 11:22:38 AM
No.. apparently you have to throw a thanksgiving dinner for your lesbian ex-wife, kenny g, and satan first ?-(
But I agree with rocky.. we got screwed a bit and I'm one less supporter in Crean's camp as a result. since we're all into (italicized) analogies here it's like
you buy a $25k diamond ring and propose to your girlfriend (she somehow says yes) and the next day you drive to work and find out your badge doesn't work.. you check with the security guard and he says "oh yeah.. we cut you last night".
The company might have set you up with an awesome resume, but you still gotta find a job to pay off the credit card charge for the $25k ring and quick. Not that you can't but you're fairly guaranteed at least a week or two of lost wages and the risk that you may have to return the ring and get dumped by the fiance. While it was completely within their rights to let you go the way they did, the company screwed ya (no matter the fact that you probably will recover quickly).
It was completely within Crean's rights to dump MU the way he did but he still screwed us. We had a top 25 team on the plate but had to scramble to get a good replacement coach so we could keep it in the top 25 and not lose any members of it or any potential for it. Sorry, but I wouldn't accept him as a head coach of my team again in the future.
I'm sorry if the parralles between the rediculousness of my comment and that of comparing him to an axe murderer friend and a drug using child weren't apperent. My point is that you can claim anything is a metaphore for what happened.
If a guy worked for you for 9 years, during wich time he was a top 10 proformer and regularly hired talented people to his managment team who were stolen away for better positions, told you he was given an amazing time sensitive offer that he felt like he had to say yes to right away, but that he felt he had the perfect replacement on staff already and you could promote him for a fairly seamless transition...Yeah sounds like a psycotic, axe murdering, evil twin, cheating wife, drug using, commander leaving his men in battle like situation to me.
My personal take on thsi silly string that has not reched 75 posts?.....
I think Pakuni and the other Crean defenders need to take a chill pill. Crean leaving was bound to cause alot of ill will, the way he left caused even more ill will, his acceptance speech which i might add I nailed dead on even before he gave it caused even more ill will, his contacting Mu commitments and attempting to lure them to IU created even more ill will.
Pakuni and others argumnets are basically correct but the way he left on top of just the fact that he did leave will and has casued so much rentment that the man will be hated forever reagrdless of what he ever did or did not accomplish.
Go to the Kansas boards and take up the defnse of Roy williams there, because you can make the very same arguments and see how far that gets you. other examples can be given. crean will be and should be forever hated at MU. DID he accomplish some things at MU sure, but Mu is a big time basketball prgram and he did not do anything so over the top that his prescense will be so greatly missed. HAd he lost to HC in the first round of 2003 is arguable that he would have been run out of town before he had a chance to leave. MU made Crean, Crean and others seem to have forgotten that. 3 nccas' and 2 nit's, 5 double digit losing seasons, 0 conference titles, 1 ncAA win and 1 good recruitng class in the last 5 years but keep on defending the guy.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on July 21, 2008, 01:15:08 PM
My personal take on thsi silly string that has not reched 75 posts?.....
I think Pakuni and the other Crean defenders need to take a chill pill. Crean leaving was bound to cause alot of ill will, the way he left caused even more ill will, his acceptance speech which i might add I nailed dead on even before he gave it caused even more ill will, his contacting Mu commitments and attempting to lure them to IU created even more ill will.
Pakuni and others argumnets are basically correct but the way he left on top of just the fact that he did leave will and has casued so much rentment that the man will be hated forever reagrdless of what he ever did or did not accomplish.
Go to the Kansas boards and take up the defnse of Roy williams there, because you can make the very same arguments and see how far that gets you. other examples can be given. crean will be and should be forever hated at MU. DID he accomplish some things at MU sure, but Mu is a big time basketball prgram and he did not do anything so over the top that his prescense will be so greatly missed. HAd he lost to HC in the first round of 2003 is arguable that he would have been run out of town before he had a chance to leave. MU made Crean, Crean and others seem to have forgotten that. 3 nccas' and 2 nit's, 5 double digit losing seasons, 0 conference titles, 1 ncAA win and 1 good recruitng class in the last 5 years but keep on defending the guy.
I think it's really a matter of perspective. I also think you have to take emotions (love and hate) out of it.
I mean, you can look at it this way:
"MU made Crean, Crean and others seem to have forgotten that. 3 nccas' and 2 nit's, 5 double digit losing seasons, 0 conference titles, 1 ncAA win and 1 good recruitng class in the last 5 years but keep on defending the guy. " - Hayward
Or, you can look at it this way:
Crean (whether you like him or not) is the second best coach in MU's history. You can argue about KO, or some guy from the 50's but Crean is definitely in the conversation for #2, which says a lot given what he inherited. He didn't inherit a complete dog, but it certainly was worse off than he left it.
If a coach comes in, spends 9 years, and leaves the program better than he found it... I'm happy. If Buzz can accomplish the same, I'll be thrilled.
Simple as that. Obviously there is a ton of minutia and details that people can love/hate...
but the program is better now than when he got it. I think that says a lot given that Crean was a major force in that effort.
Quote from: RawdogDX on July 21, 2008, 11:19:56 AM
If you were camping and a pack of blood thirsty yettis attacked you...
Did someone say Yeti?
(http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/tc_yeti.gif)
What the heck is a Crean defender? You mean someone that enjoyed the 2nd best tenure in MU history?
Yeah, there are a lot of people that enjoyed the Final Four, going from a non NIT team to a perennial power, graduating players at nearly 100%, no NCAA violations, etc, etc. The guy was an ahole at times but it was a great ride. Forgive us for enjoying that run and not being a completely bitter person like you are that has to attack the previous coach at every turn.
You're entitle to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2008, 02:19:49 PM
You're entitle[d] to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts.
I am TOTALLY going to steal this line for use in other circumstances. Thanks, CBB!!! :D
Quote from: Coach Norman Dale on July 21, 2008, 02:25:57 PM
I am TOTALLY going to steal this line for use in other circumstances. Thanks, CBB!!! :D
Not my line, it's been around for a long time in the lawyering world....I guess I deal with lawyers too much so it rubs off from time to time. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2008, 02:19:49 PM
You're entitle to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts.
And threrein lies the rub.
Hate Crean all you want, if you wish. Believe he's the scummiest scum who ever scummed if it makes you feel better about his departure.
But enough with the revisionist history about him being a terrible coach and recruiter who somehow held Marquette back from its Duke-like potential. Tom Crean's tenure at Marquette was a highly successful one. Perfect? No. But much better than most in his circumstances.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on July 21, 2008, 01:15:08 PM
Go to the Kansas boards and take up the defnse of Roy williams there, because you can make the very same arguments and see how far that gets you. other examples can be given. crean will be and should be forever hated at MU. DID he accomplish some things at MU sure, but Mu is a big time basketball prgram and he did not do anything so over the top that his prescense will be so greatly missed. HAd he lost to HC in the first round of 2003 is arguable that he would have been run out of town before he had a chance to leave. MU made Crean, Crean and others seem to have forgotten that. 3 nccas' and 2 nit's, 5 double digit losing seasons, 0 conference titles, 1 ncAA win and 1 good recruitng class in the last 5 years but keep on defending the guy.
If that is truly your belief, then it begs the question why no one else did it other then some guy named McGuire. It begs the question why it took 30 years. It begs the question if we were a big time program, why our only conference we could get into at first was the MCC (the current Horizon), then the Great Midwest, then CUSA.
The correct answer is MU was once a big time program, but for over a decade it was not. It had sunk to such a despair that we were being ROUTED by Iona, beating Stetson as our only road win, losing to Loyola at home and having multiple seasons with 10 or 11 wins. We were awful. Thankfully some folks took notice, hired some good coaches like KO, Deane and Crean to bring us back. All the credit should not go to Tom Crean...it was a process of building it back slowly but methodically...a process that took a decade or more. But to suggest that "crean will be and should be forever hated at MU" may be one of the silliest and childish things I have ever read, and that's saying something.
One can only assume that you say these things just to say them and get attention because it's hard to fathom a rational person saying "crean will be and should be forever hated at MU". That's the only diagnosis I can come up with.
In essence what you've done is say Crean was so bad at everything he did (thus the hate you have), that anyone should be able to EXCEED his accomplishments. Yet, since only one coach in MU history has done that, you've set the bar in a tough spot for everyone else.
I'd add that Crean's success here makes Buzz's job EASIER because Crean helped put MU back on the map, something you simply continue to ignore. Buzz was given a gift wrapped top 15 team in a major conference with great facilities, working on a 3 season NCAA streak...something Crean did not inherit, but rather built and left for Buzz.
I was at MU for Hank Raymonds and Majerus and after I left pretty much just watched the occasional game on tv and being in Michigan remember watching the Sweet 16 run of Kevin O'Neill's and cursing him when he left for Tennessee, mainly because he had promised Tony Miller he would be at MU for his whole tenure. After Crean was hired, living here in Michigan, I began to watch more as games became more frequent on tv . I thank him for renewing pride in Marquette basketball , for giving me an awesome 2003 Final Four run and for having his teams play hard and running a clean program. While not privy to the inside scoop of all that surrounded his tenure, I fault him for having his teams seem tight in NCAA tournament play ( the exception being the 2003 run) which really hit home for me when we lost to MSU two years ago ( my best friend's alma mater and the loss of a Ruth Chris dinner),the manner in which he left and the fact that I think that he seemed a little bit too much of a "shuck and jiver". However, while at MU, he was our shuck and jiver and it is only natural that the faults which many complain of now were tolerated because during his tenure, overall, we were happy with the results and the way the program was headed. Could more have been achieved while he was here? Perhaps. However, even those who profess to hate him have to acknowledge that he did a lot of good for the program when all is said and done and I am not one to count myself in the pro-Crean category.
Quote from: detroitwarrior on July 21, 2008, 08:08:41 PM
I was at MU for Hank Raymonds and Majerus and after I left pretty much just watched the occasional game on tv and being in Michigan remember watching the Sweet 16 run of Kevin O'Neill's and cursing him when he left for Tennessee, mainly because he had promised Tony Miller he would be at MU for his whole tenure. After Crean was hired, living here in Michigan, I began to watch more as games became more frequent on tv . I thank him for renewing pride in Marquette basketball , for giving me an awesome 2003 Final Four run and for having his teams play hard and running a clean program. While not privy to the inside scoop of all that surrounded his tenure, I fault him for having his teams seem tight in NCAA tournament play ( the exception being the 2003 run) which really hit home for me when we lost to MSU two years ago ( my best friend's alma mater and the loss of a Ruth Chris dinner),the manner in which he left and the fact that I think that he seemed a little bit too much of a "shuck and jiver". However, while at MU, he was our shuck and jiver and it is only natural that the faults which many complain of now were tolerated because during his tenure, overall, we were happy with the results and the way the program was headed. Could more have been achieved while he was here? Perhaps. However, even those who profess to hate him have to acknowledge that he did a lot of good for the program when all is said and done and I am not one to count myself in the pro-Crean category.
Those that hate him have to ask themselves the question of what he left behind to the new coach....a top 15 team, a team going for it's 4th straight NCAA appearance, a team with 3 All Big East players and a 4th that will likely make it this year, fantastic facilities, top conference, highest attendance average in MU history.....he sure left the next coach a really crappy situation. LOL
Those that hate him have to ask themselves the question of what he left behind to the new coach....a top 15 team, a team going for it's 4th straight NCAA appearance, a team with 3 All Big East players and a 4th that will likely make it this year, fantastic facilities, top conference, highest attendance average in MU history.....he sure left the next coach a really crappy situation. LOL
Agreed Chicos....in addition, the fact that many are still venting the pros and cons of Crean four months after his departure indicates that he must also be given credit for bringing some passion back to the program and raising expectations ( both good things). And again, I am not one who was enamored with him at all.
+1 detroit warrior. I appreciate the Wade year and the last 3 years. However, not a pro-crean fan as I also think his coaching ceiling was reached. He will be fine at Indiana, but we are not happy with NCAA 1st round exits.