Are Buzz and crew recruiting too many JUCO's? Are they sacrificing long term stability in order to keep the momentum going in the short term? Or, are the three signings this year each a unique situation that should each be judged on its own merits? After all, Fulce and Butler were both qualifiers out of high school, Fulce would follow Buzz anywhere, apparently, and Butler wanted to build his resume. Buycks is a Milwaukee kid who had to and has taken care of his academics. Buycks is apparently in the JM mold, which is cool. All bring athleticism and versatility. But again, is this a conscious decision to take juco's? Is it getting the best athlete available? Is it in the long term best interest of the program?
I would be curious to know if Buzz was asked during the interview process for an outline on recruiting goals for the first few years of his tenure, if he mentioned that he might sign a few Jucos, what the reaction to that was, or whether he was given carte blanche to recruit whomever he wanted etc.
Too many JUCOs and you become Cincinnati. I would prefer we go the recruit-them-as-freshmen route.
I prefer the freshman route as well, but maybe he's planning for a future big recruiting class?
Quote from: MUCrew on June 17, 2008, 08:49:11 AM
I prefer the freshman route as well, but maybe he's planning for a future big recruiting class?
Losing Taylor and Williams may have forced Buzz to more strongly consider a kid like Buycks.......MU stands to be very average (or worse) in 09-10 unless Buzz creatively fills the gaps -- hence, Buycks.
The Buycks signing does make sense from the standpoint that assuming he is as good a player as his reviews from HS and Juco, he will be able to play significant minutes in 2009 and it looks like he can play the point a bit so the focus on the anchor point guard can be 2010.
I believe it is circumstances and best player available. I think he is playing the hand dealt him the best he can. In a few years with a recruiting history we may be able to answer the JUCO question. The fact we always lose a year or two of player eligibility deems to make JUCO recruiting less desirable than HS or Prep players.
I think everyone needs to calm down on the whole JUCO thing. First of all buycks got a 3.6 his first year and second of all Fulce and Butler were qualifiers. So why the administration would have any problem with that is beyond me. More specifically in terms of Buzz Williams putting winning basketball teams on the court our ex-coach sort of tied his hands. After signing the big 3 his recruiting has been poor. Buzz needs talent that can play immediately and while the posters might like Buzz to sign class presidents with 4.0's that come from the most esteemed backgrounds and also happen to be top 50 recruits you are not recruiting for your coaching life. Crean signed a bunch of duds and Buzz needs to replace them now or we are St. Johns in 2 years!! Bottom line is Buzz just replaced scott Christopherson with Buycks, chrsitopherson could never have competed in the BE!!, my goodness the guy could not even dribble with his left hand...or right, or move, or... Buycks for christopherson equals big time upgrade!!
what's the difference, really, between recruiting Jucos who play for a year or two or recruiting top 10 players, who play for a year or two before turning pro?
Neither is a long term solution.
Quote from: ATWizJr on June 17, 2008, 09:40:08 AM
what's the difference, really, between recruiting Jucos who play for a year or two or recruiting top 10 players, who play for a year or two before turning pro?
Neither is a long term solution.
Way to stretch that out on a limb.
MU doesn't attract top 10 players. We don't have to worry about that. I'm guessing the feeling people have is it would be better to sign a top 75 player like Omari Lawrence at the 2 guard and have him for 4 years rather then sign a JUCO at the 2 guard and have him for 2 years. That way, giving them a season of adjustment, you'd have Lawrence for 3 seasons whereas you only have Buycks for one season.
Fine, nola, but the expectation is that Bucyks would need less acclimatization after two years of JUCO ball than an incoming 12 grader.
Quote from: nola03 on June 17, 2008, 09:51:27 AM
I'm guessing the feeling people have is it would be better to sign a top 75 player like Omari Lawrence at the 2 guard and have him for 4 years rather then sign a JUCO at the 2 guard and have him for 2 years. That way, giving them a season of adjustment, you'd have Lawrence for 3 seasons whereas you only have Buycks for one season.
In a more ideal situation, yes. However, losing TT and NW was a huge hit to the program, effectively gutting the future backcourt leaving the 09-10 team in a world of hurt. Buzz chose to go for a more mature player to bridge the gap, and I'd imagine has doubled-down on kids in the 2010 freshman class in response to the Buycks commitment.
The key here, in my mind, is whether or not Buycks can keep his grades in order and graduate next May from Indian Hills. If he does, DB can be on campus in one year allowing him more time to prep for the season. If he struggles to secure the GPA, core courses/credits he needs and can't get to MU until next August, we could be looking at a Jamil Lott or Trend Blackledge situation which could lead to a wasted year.
It's up to Buycks now. Get the grades and get to campus on-time. BTW, Buzz can still go after Lawrence anyway -- he has two more tenders to pass out
Quote from: ATWizJr on June 17, 2008, 10:05:06 AM
.....the expectation is that Bucyks would need less acclimatization after two years of JUCO ball than an incoming 12 grader.
Recent MU history with JUCOs (Trend Blackledge/Jamil Lott, for example) vs. true freshmen (Dominic James/Jerel McNeal/Wesley Matthews) is the counterpoint to your expectation.
good point nyw, but, isn't it pretty much universally accepted that those you reference were not great gets by our former coach? Again, the hope is that DB is a cut above those or maybe several cuts above.
Quote from: NYWarrior on June 17, 2008, 10:09:51 AM
Recent MU history with JUCOs (Trend Blackledge/Jamil Lott, for example) vs. true freshmen (Dominic James/Jerel McNeal/Wesley Matthews) is the counterpoint to your expectation.
Yeah but those kids (Lott & Trend) were some of TC's famed 2am drunk hook-ups
Who will help us more in 09-10, Scott Christopherson or Buycks? Nuff said!!
Right, those were the previous coach's choices of JUCO's. Lets reserve judgement on our new JUCO transfers till we see them perform.
It's clear when Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams were lost due to the Crean exit some recruiting magic was needed to have some first level backcourt players after the Amigos leave.
There's a huge difference between the Buzz JUCO recruits and Crean's. Buzz knew Joe Fulce and Jimmy Butler for years. Buycks is a local kid and was clearly in the first tier of Marquette recruiting targets. Crean's recruits were last minute additions. Consolation prizes.
No knock against the Crean JUCO recruits but there is a difference. Blackledge was heading to a mid major if Marquette hadn't offered. He worked his but off to qualify at Marquette and it set him back on the court. Butler had an offer from Kentucky and was a qualifier out of high school.
Buycks and Butler essentially replace Taylor and Nick Williams with more talent to come. Nice work on Buzz' part for two months on the job. Buycks being a local kid will be able to have gym time for two summers with the Marquette players. That time will also make sure he is not put in the academic situation Blackledge had to face.
Quote from: Tulsa Warrior on June 17, 2008, 10:41:36 AM
Buycks being a local kid will be able to have gym time for two summers with the Marquette players.
His initial plan was to not be in Milwaukee this summer. He was going to stay at Indian Hills this summer to get as many classes done as possible so that when his regular school year is done next year he won't have to stick around and take classes until August like some JUCOs have to.
Not sure if that is still the case or not.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on June 17, 2008, 10:24:34 AM
Yeah but those kids (Lott & Trend) were some of TC's famed 2am drunk hook-ups
Agree.
Its unfair to say Buycks won't be successful at MU because of the history of JUCOs that Crean recruited.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on June 17, 2008, 10:25:40 AM
Who will help us more in 09-10, Scott Christopherson or Buycks? Nuff said!!
Maybe, but what is Buycks role going to be? If you want to look at it as him replacing Christopherson's junior and senior years, you're still looking at two different types of players. But if Buycks is starting, he's replacing the loss of James or McNeal, not being a key bench player, which was the best case scenario for Christopherson. If he's going to be a starting guard, he seems to have a lot of improvements to make to come close the the players he's replacing.
Quote from: NYWarrior on June 17, 2008, 10:09:51 AM
Recent MU history with JUCOs (Trend Blackledge/Jamil Lott, for example) vs. true freshmen (Dominic James/Jerel McNeal/Wesley Matthews) is the counterpoint to your expectation.
Perhaps, though I'd suggest those adjustments had much more to do with talent than with those players' respective abilities to acclimate to D-I ball.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on June 17, 2008, 09:38:26 AM
I think everyone needs to calm down on the whole JUCO thing. First of all buycks got a 3.6 his first year and second of all Fulce and Butler were qualifiers. So why the administration would have any problem with that is beyond me. More specifically in terms of Buzz Williams putting winning basketball teams on the court our ex-coach sort of tied his hands. After signing the big 3 his recruiting has been poor.
I assume you forgot about Lazare!
No i have not fogotten lazar...will he score approx. 45 points 10 assist and 14 rebounds in addition to his current prodcution by his senoir year? 1 player lets say two in trevor in 3 years aint going to get it done in the BE. Expect Buzz to still go after a good PG and then either a big or another SG. people seem to think Buycks means no lawrence or another Sg...why would that be they will not even be in the same class by 2 years and we did just recently sign 3 top 100 guards in 1 year. Iwould not be surprised at all if the next two schollies were given to a sg and a pg. you can still sign a C in 2010, making that player a freshman when Trevor and otule are a senior and junior.
After a few hours of contemplation, I think this recruit is the result of the fallout of TTaylor's release. Buycks considers himself a point guard (per Rosiak). I think the plan is to have an experienced PG with some size in the fold for after the 3 amigos graduation. This would have been TT's spot, but we all know how that turned out. I am guessing that Buzz projects Buycks as a starting PG, with Acker and Cub as possible backups. Now he will work on recruiting a big and a high school PG for the rest of his '09 class. All conjecture on my part, but it does track.
It seems based on looking at the kids interested in Marquette on this board and other boards in 2009 that there are more quality SGs available in 2009 than PGs who have not already commited. Get a 4 star SG and Jamil Wilson with the 2009 spots and then a 4 star PG and Big in 2010.
If Buycks really is Buzz's answer at the point, then I'm guessing he's still going to try and land a shooter and a back to the basket post. He can try and get a PG for 2010 to backup Buycks for a year.
I thought Jamil Wilson was out of the equation for 2009-10. Am I wrong?
Quote from: ecompt on June 17, 2008, 03:44:57 PM
I thought Jamil Wilson was out of the equation for 2009-10. Am I wrong?
It would take a miracle at this point to get him to MU.
Quote from: ecompt on June 17, 2008, 03:44:57 PM
I thought Jamil Wilson was out of the equation for 2009-10. Am I wrong?
I believe that at this point MSU is sitting in the catbird's seat.
Quote from: Wareagle on June 17, 2008, 04:04:29 PM
I believe that at this point MSU is sitting in the catbird's seat.
I'm excited about the fact that MSU's big "Gets" out of Wisconsin (Lucious / Wilson) will end up paling in comparison to Kwamain Mitchell at SLU and Jeronne Maymon at MU. And Izzo will take this "All Wisconsin Team" into the Kohl Hole and still lose to Bo.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on June 17, 2008, 04:12:20 PM
I'm excited about the fact that MSU's big "Gets" out of Wisconsin (Lucious / Wilson) will end up paling in comparison to Kwamain Mitchell at SLU and Jeronne Maymon at MU. And Izzo will take this "All Wisconsin Team" into the Kohl Hole and still lose to Bo.
Someone posted on another site about how, eventually, on-court production overtakes potential as a basis for evaluating recruits. At this point, I would say you could make a reasonable argument that Maymon's prep accomplishments in the State Tournament (where he was playing out of position) and his AAU output earlier this year put him on equal ground with Jamil's "potential."
It will be interesting to compare Buyckes and Butler as juniors to how Taylor and Nick Williams are doing as sophomores. As far as recruiting juco's I thought Fr. Wilde had some agreement with Crean that he could only take one juco at a time. I think the rule had an exception for players that were academically eligible coming out of high school. If that was and still is the case then Buzz would not be able to take anymore junior college players as Buyckes would be his one allowed juco. Does anybody remember the exact limitation that was placed on Crean and jucos. Part of the problem with Crean's jucos was that they were front court players playing for a back court coach. There have been a lot of great jucos in MU's history. MU's best team (1976 27-2) started two juco's. Walton and Whitehead, who both came to MU after playing one year of juco ball. I do not think Butler and Fulce will be as good as those two players, but they should be better than Blackledge and Lott.
Quote from: bilsu on June 17, 2008, 06:57:09 PM
It will be interesting to compare Buyckes and Butler as juniors to how Taylor and Nick Williams are doing as sophomores. As far as recruiting juco's I thought Fr. Wilde had some agreement with Crean that he could only take one juco at a time. I think the rule had an exception for players that were academically eligible coming out of high school. If that was and still is the case then Buzz would not be able to take anymore junior college players as Buyckes would be his one allowed juco. Does anybody remember the exact limitation that was placed on Crean and jucos. Part of the problem with Crean's jucos was that they were front court players playing for a back court coach. There have been a lot of great jucos in MU's history. MU's best team (1976 27-2) started two juco's. Walton and Whitehead, who both came to MU after playing one year of juco ball. I do not think Butler and Fulce will be as good as those two players, but they should be better than Blackledge and Lott.
Of Crean's JUCO players, I believe only Kinsella was a qualifier out of high school, and he didn't start at the JUCO, he started at Rice. But Jackson, Lott and Blackledge were all non-qualifiers, and he had Blackledge and Lott on the team together in 2006-2007. So the one JUCO at a time seems to just be a rumor.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on June 17, 2008, 04:12:20 PM
I'm excited about the fact that MSU's big "Gets" out of Wisconsin (Lucious / Wilson) will end up paling in comparison to Kwamain Mitchell at SLU and Jeronne Maymon at MU. And Izzo will take this "All Wisconsin Team" into the Kohl Hole and still lose to Bo.
This is a serious question, not trying to disagree with you because I only saw Mitchell play once: Do you really think Kwamain Mitchell is that good/will make that big of an impact at SLU? The game I saw him play was at the Al (actually against Wilson's Horlick team) and I was very unimpressed with him (considering he is going to SLU and is highly thought of by Majerus). I wasn't that impressed with Wilson either, but you can tell Wilson definitely could be a star some day, wherever he goes. I thought Mitchell was a decent ball handler, solid leader, decent passer, but terrible shooter and didn't look to score enough. He'll be decent but I don't know if he'll overshadow Wilson. I think he'll overshadow Lucious though, only because Lucious isn't going to get very much playing time until at best his junior year, probably senior year, if he ever does. I'm not a fan of Lucious's game at all...reminds me a lot of Lacy except that he doesn't even try to get to the rim, just shoots NBA range 3 pointers all day and clanks them (can get hot and then he's good, but from what I've seen, and that's a lot, he only gets hot 1 in about every 3 or 4 games...others he gets his 20 points in 25 shots).
In my opinion, Maymon and Wilson will be VERY good in college, Mitchell will be a decent, pass-first point guard, and Lucious will ride the pine (I think he'll transfer before his junior year).
Again, only seen Wilson twice, Lucious more than enough times, and Mitchell once, and haven't seen Maymon (have heard a lot from people who have seen him a lot though), so I could be completely off.