MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on May 19, 2008, 06:44:50 PM

Title: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: tower912 on May 19, 2008, 06:44:50 PM
Chico, you stated in another exceedingly long thread that you agreed somewhat with Majerus that MU should not be in the BEast.    Fair enough.   If not the BEast, where?   MVC?  A10?   A theoretical super Catholic conference that has been discussed for at least 20 years but has never gone past the speculation phase?   Or, when all of those are considered, is the BEast the best?   And remember, legend has it that MU was invited to join the BEast nearly 30 years ago.    So, where should MU be?
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2008, 06:54:03 PM
I think I actually said I somewhat agree with him...I'm very torn.  It's great for MU in terms of scheduling and having the opportunity for top players.  My biggest concern is that if MU isn't hitting on all cylinders, the fall from top half to bottom half can happen almost overnight.  The league is so damn good there is no room for error, none.  It also means the climb back to the upper half is very difficult as well, so best never to get down there.

Now, that's a great thing if the university is willing to play ball and provide what is needed to be successful.  So far they have, though obviously you know I'm concerned about our approach with our head coach hire....risky and if it doesn't work out and we do fall to the bottom half, it's that much harder to get someone here to bring us back.

I've been incredibly pleased and surprised that we have been as successful as we have been in the Big East thus far.  We cannot rest on our laurels, G'Town, Pitts, Novas, UCONNs, etc are giong to fight to stay up there as well.  I see a committment by nearly all 16 teams to get into that upper part of the league, something I don't see with many other leagues.  Even South Florida by hiiring Heath is saying they're not going to just coast and be a football school.  St. John's is the one that baffles me.  That's not the case with a Penn State or Northwestern in the Big Ten, or any number of other bottom dwellers in other leagues that have a pecking order.

So for now, I'm fine with the Big East but believe we are in a much more fragile position today then we were 45 days ago in terms of staying in the upper half.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: tower912 on May 19, 2008, 07:03:02 PM
I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: Sir Lawrence on May 19, 2008, 07:13:45 PM
    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

Boston College, Seton Hall, Holy Cross, Creighton.  The Pope could just order it up.

Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: jce on May 19, 2008, 07:22:13 PM
I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.


I would not be surprised at all if this were the case in a decade due to the pressures being put on the conference from the football schools.  My guess is that ND would stick with them...replace them with SLU.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2008, 07:47:34 PM
I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.

In the Big East, there are 12 teams that are absolutely capable (talent wise) to go to the NCAA in any given year, but no way 12 go (nor should they).  In history, no more then 8 have gone.  When you think of a school like Syracuse missing two of the last three times (and the one they did go they had to win the conference tournament), that just says it all.  Or UCONN missing it.  Cincinnati, who dominated CUSA has yet to show up on the map for the Big East...that alone is scary.  How long will it take or are they just proving the point in how tough it is to get back up there?  Seton Hall...went to the NCAAs 2 of 3 years (including MU's first year in the league) under Louis Orr.  They fired him, they haven't been since (I'm not an Orr fan, but my point is that the fragile nature of this league is crazy).

I don't want to think much about the Catholic / Private league and all that, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me to break up the A-10, Big East and maybe even some Horizon League (Butler) schools to form a conference.  But then again, you're back into having say 10 schools all with that top tier only attitude.  That's great for competition, but many conferences seem to have the predictable deadweight to give it some balance year in and year out.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 19, 2008, 07:55:23 PM
Give me a frick'in break. This is the conference to be in, period. How many years did it take us to get here? Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left? The University has made the commitment but failed to strap it on completely with the head coach's hire.
However, now let's go forward and see if Buzz can both recruit and coach Big East athletes. If he can, then great, we got our man. If not, give him the quick hot air and get a basketball man in here who knows what he's doing, at all cost.
The problem is not the conference, but rather how you handle the opportunities the conference presents.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: 79Warrior on May 19, 2008, 08:00:49 PM
Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.


disagree on the Al front. what do you mean by survived? Continue to play basketball? Yes. Continue to be a top program in college basketball, absolutely not. The program staggered mightly after Al left. Raymonds barley hung on, Rick was in over his head and Dukiet killed it. MU disappeared from the national scene.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ATWizJr on May 19, 2008, 08:10:34 PM
Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2008, 08:20:00 PM
Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.


disagree on the Al front. what do you mean by survived? Continue to play basketball? Yes. Continue to be a top program in college basketball, absolutely not. The program staggered mightly after Al left. Raymonds barley hung on, Rick was in over his head and Dukiet killed it. MU disappeared from the national scene.

I think that's what I said...it took 15 years to come back.  Believe me, I think I've said on many occassions that what happened after Al left was nothing but downhill....it started slowly, picked up speed and then the bottom absolutely dropped out.  But in terms of surviving, we didn't end up like Loyola, on the ashpile of programs probably forever now.  Or we didn't even end up as DePaul.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: Pakuni on May 19, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)

Corrected.

Nothing like pining for lower expectations.
MU belongs in the Big East. Any notion that a bad year or two would permanently sink the program into the conference cellar is silly.
Georgetown, Villanova, Pitt, etc. all had some really down years over the past decade or so, yet didn't suffer that fate. Why MU would be any different, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2008, 08:23:06 PM
Give me a frick'in break. This is the conference to be in, period. How many years did it take us to get here? Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left? The University has made the commitment but failed to strap it on completely with the head coach's hire.
However, now let's go forward and see if Buzz can both recruit and coach Big East athletes. If he can, then great, we got our man. If not, give him the quick hot air and get a basketball man in here who knows what he's doing, at all cost.
The problem is not the conference, but rather how you handle the opportunities the conference presents.

I don't think anyone is saying to bail out of the Big East, but some are saying if we aren't willing to do what it takes, that might change the answer.

As long as MU is willing and committed to play at the top, then stay.  But if MU isn't, then what's the point.  Some would argue the latest hire puts that commitment into question (for Pakuni's sake and for clarity...I am not saying that....though I am quite nervous about the more fragile state the program's is in today then it was 45 days ago...whether that is reality or perception I don't know).

Some will argue you need to be in the best conference to be the best.....maybe.  Though certainly the Xavier's, Memphis', Gonzaga's, Wisconsin's, etc wouldn't necessarily bare that out.

And yes, G'Town, Nova, Pitt all had some down years, but not during the 16 team era of the Big East....that's a significant difference where none of us have enough history or data to see if teams can recover.  So far the haves and have nots seem to be fairly stable in the first three years.  Should be fun to watch and this coming season should be MU's 4th straight NCAA apperance and top half conference finish. After that......time will tell.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: mviale on May 19, 2008, 08:27:48 PM
Lets take Rick's words at minimum - he is a jilted lover with Marquette and he could not get it done while here.

Insert  excuses.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: MUBasketball on May 19, 2008, 08:33:37 PM
Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left?

Haha, right on.

Some people baffle me. A lot of Crean critics on the board...then he leaves, and people think the sky is going to fall. Huh???

A lot of people seemed to think Crean wasn't that strong of a game coach. I think we all agree he was a solid recruiter (he made mistakes, everybody does). Well, Buzz is our man now. What does Buzz do well? Recruit. What annoys me to no end is the fact that everybody assumes he isn't a strong coach. Even if that's true, what's any different from the previous coach? Buzz hired a very solid staff, and I think he'll surprise his critics with his game coaching. He's bounced around, constantly moving up along the way. He's learned from a lot of different people and I'm sure has molded all that info over the years into his own ideas and philosophies.

He'll do a fine job, people need to relax and rally behind him.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: mviale on May 19, 2008, 08:52:15 PM
agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee.  I am positive about the change.  I think Buzz will do well here.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: jce on May 19, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)

I want to make this clear.  I don't think MU should leave the Big East.  I just don't think the BE survives its next football TV contract.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2008, 10:20:22 PM
agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee. 


Really?

I like his staff, but think that's a bit of a stretch. 
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: Niv Berkowitz on May 19, 2008, 10:24:01 PM
No way do they bolt the BEast or look elsewhere just because the going got rough. If MU were traditionally a 10-20 year bottom feeder (see Northwestern - Big Ten), that's one thing. But we've been top half of the toughest hoops conference in the league. Is it a championship? No. But it's d@mned good ball and fun to watch and be a part of.

And most importantly, we've had the horses to compete. We know we can do it. Should we fail in the near future at all, a good administration would make necessary changes to get us back on top (or at least near the top). I'm hoping it doesn't come to that in my lifetime.

5-10 years down the road, though, I think the BEast as we know it will be no longer due to the demands of football. The non-football teams will get shut out. Or, and I don't know what can/can't be done legally about this, but maybe the league will force a couple bottom feeders out, no matter who they may be. DePaul anyone?
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: mviale on May 19, 2008, 11:06:16 PM
Really?

I like his staff, but think that's a bit of a stretch. 

I cannot recall a more experienced staff.  These guys are going to gel and create a great class for 09-10. However, I expect to lose some of them for head coaching positions. I may be an optimist, but I think we have a good group.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: THEGYMBAR on May 20, 2008, 07:20:20 AM
Obviously the BE is where we all would like to be. My only concern is that MU makes the right decisions to compete. The top programs in BE are that because the school's make it a priority. In the past coaching changes the conference was a much easier adjustment for the new coach.

In my opinion TC left because he knew firsthand exactly how tough the BE can be. Coaching against top coaches/programs twice a week is not for the weak of heart. This is not a rip on Buzz, but hopefully his lack of experience causes him to coach with no fear. TC coached and over coached trying to prove his coaching strengths.

The BE is won 75% by great players. You do not see BE won by the likes of Dick Bennett who just coaches. MU has to recruit BE players to compete. That is a major task and the school needs to help Buzz. All along I have been saying we need studs...we need studs ASAP.

Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ATWizJr on May 20, 2008, 07:57:26 AM
I know some of the posters on this board are unhappy with the hire and some may be waiting for Buzz to fail so that they can say "I told you so".

But the redundant whining is off the charts.

MU has made it a priority to compete at the highest level.  In view of the facilities and the ongoing funding of the program there can be no denying this.

Posters cannot in one breath say "this is not a rip on Buzz" and then in the next cite what they perceive to be his lack of experience.  That is ripping on Buzz and is disingenuous.

Posters claim that the BE is won 75% with players(I think we'd all like to see the empirical evidence on that) then express your unhappiness tht MU hired an experienced recruiter.

It is not a new idea that we need studs.

If Buzz is a bad hire we'll know soon enough, it won't be our first bad hire, we will survive it if it is, and thrive in the BEast, and you will still have your moment of glory in the sun and be able to say that you were right.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: Niv Berkowitz on May 20, 2008, 08:11:54 AM
So ATWiz, if some of us are concerened about Buzz's lack of experience and the fact the school didn't do it's best in at least talking to candidates, we should not say anything because it shows we aren't supporting the school. In fact, we might even hurt your feelings and the feelings of others at MU.

I do see your point, though. If the Buzz hire is bad, we'll know soon enough and "survive" if it is. You're exactly right. I mean, if the Buzz hire IS bad, it will just set the program back 3-5 years....in a conference as difficult as the B.East. That's absolutely no reason of concern whatsoever.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: HarveysWallbangers on May 20, 2008, 08:13:43 AM
agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee.  I am positive about the change.  I think Buzz will do well here.

Can you tell me who the #1 assistant is because I'd kind of like to know who is on Cottingham's new short list.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: DegenerateDish on May 20, 2008, 08:48:00 AM
People who think MU would want to form a Catholic League because Crean left is pure foolishness and severely shortsighted.

Those who think that way are obviously not looking at the long term picture. MU will not be in the Big East (as it's presently formed) 10 years from now. It will not happen. Period.

With everything in life, there is one thing that will drive this decision. $$$. The reality is that between the next negotiations of a Big East football tv contract, and the upcoming BCS tv negotiations will not work in MU's favor. Like it or not, college basketball is the stepchild to college football. Believe it or not, the success of Rutgers football could bring about the next big conference shake up. The Big 11 and ACC are eyeing Rutgers very closely right now.

From the basketball standpoint, 16 teams=16 programs looking for success each year, against top AND mid heavy talent. Schools like Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul are going to have tough decisions to make in the next two-three years. Unless they can hit excellent recruiting classes over that time, they're all looking at coaching changes and the continued uphill battle against annual conference powers. In a 12 team league, that task isn't as daunting. When you have 9 top 25 teams, all in your conference and ahead of you, that's not a good situation to be in. Plus coaching buyouts and changes every four-five years are going to happen to the non-powers in the BE. Coaching buyouts cost $$$, especially when you don't have football.

Back to Marquette...if Buzz doesn't work out, could MU fall into that group? It seems very possible. The BE brings some good things. I like seeing Syracuse, UConn, Pitt on our sked. Do I expect to see them on the sked ten years from now? No way. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so.

Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: nyg on May 20, 2008, 09:31:03 AM
Good posts and most agree that it comes down to who Buzz recruits for 2009.  Eric Williams a great start, but the three additional slots are critical.  If Buzz can't bring in three more highly rated recruits, MU will be in real trouble.  If Buzz does, then we should be competitive in BE following the loss of the three amigos. Stay in BE, the best B-ball conference.

Just looking at who Georgetown has just recruited for 2008 and 2009 is unreal. Heck Georgetown just received a commitment form Deshawn Riley from Michigan one of the best centers in 2009 class. They have centers Greg Monroe and Henry Sims coming in 2008.  Put in Louisville's 2008 class and now West Va. getting Ebanks, wow. Can continue with UCONN, PITT, Syracuse and now even Rutgers, but thats been discussed on other threads.

But, Buzz was hired to get these type of recruits, so lets sit back and watch.



 
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: THEGYMBAR on May 20, 2008, 09:53:31 AM
nyg---great post. I agree completely that BE is where we want to be. Lets recruit BE caliber players and enjoy the ride. The conference does not allow for much down time. MU and Buzz really have a simple job. Keep up with the other teams in our conference. I do not think we are expecting anything more than what our peers are expecting.

Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: 79Warrior on May 20, 2008, 11:21:02 AM
I think that's what I said...it took 15 years to come back.  Believe me, I think I've said on many occassions that what happened after Al left was nothing but downhill....it started slowly, picked up speed and then the bottom absolutely dropped out.  But in terms of surviving, we didn't end up like Loyola, on the ashpile of programs probably forever now.  Or we didn't even end up as DePaul.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ATWizJr on May 20, 2008, 01:07:39 PM
Well Niv, I guess this is the basis of our disagreement: 

You feel he is inexperienced, I feel he is a very experienced recruiter with an excellent x's and o's  staff to help him. 

You assert as fact that the school didn't do it's best in at least talking to candidates, I feel that they went down their list and after several declinations they interviewed and hired one of the remaining candidates who was high on that list.

I am glad you agree with me on the survivability if this is a bad hire.  As Al used to say, this isn't war or surgery, just a coffee break."  Glad you're priorities are in order.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: tower912 on May 20, 2008, 01:33:18 PM
I am glad MU is in the BEast and think they should stay.  IF......the BEast as we know it were to disband in a few years, with the football schools forming their own league, ONLY THEN would I consider an all basketball, all Catholic University league.   But right now, the BEast is the place for MU.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ChicosBailBonds on May 20, 2008, 01:49:11 PM
I am glad MU is in the BEast and think they should stay.  IF......the BEast as we know it were to disband in a few years, with the football schools forming their own league, ONLY THEN would I consider an all basketball, all Catholic University league.   But right now, the BEast is the place for MU.

Agreed...as long as MU is willing to put the commitment into it to be successful.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: 79Warrior on May 20, 2008, 08:08:25 PM
Well Niv, I guess this is the basis of our disagreement: 

You feel he is inexperienced, I feel he is a very experienced recruiter with an excellent x's and o's  staff to help him. 

You assert as fact that the school didn't do it's best in at least talking to candidates, I feel that they went down their list and after several declinations they interviewed and hired one of the remaining candidates who was high on that list.

I am glad you agree with me on the survivability if this is a bad hire.  As Al used to say, this isn't war or surgery, just a coffee break."  Glad you're priorities are in order.

No question he is inexperienced. Lets seed if he can recruit. If not, say goodnight for quite some time. It will take MU 4 years to get rid of him then rebuild all over again.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: ATWizJr on May 20, 2008, 08:14:09 PM
which, of course, would be true for whomever MU  hired.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: Pardner on May 20, 2008, 08:44:31 PM
BE=TV $$.  It has taken us 25+ years to climb back up to the big time, why retreat? Anywhere else (even as an indy), MU would play second fiddle to the B10.  ESPN is a kicker because of exposure and hype as seen in our whopping increase in applications/enrollments (40% of the seniors in my kid's hs applied to MU--Chicago, not Milwaukee--#1 school by far--amazing how hot MU is right now as a school choice).  This is all on Cords and TC.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: 77ncaachamps on May 20, 2008, 11:52:35 PM
Big East.

No football at MU....

Basketball RABID...

Duh decision.
Title: Re: Which conference should MU be in?
Post by: THEGYMBAR on May 21, 2008, 07:22:48 AM
Pardner---I agree MU has become a hot school and Dwade and TC are big reason for that. Being on ESPN a ton influences all high shool kids, not just just ball players. BE is great for MU and we need to compete to build on that excitement.