When Buzz was hired, continuity was stressed.
Buzz lost SC, nice kid but wasn't going to be a factor. And he lost two recruits, NW and TT. He effectively replaced NW with Jimmy Butler. Remember that MU was one over the scholarship limit so somebody had to go regardless. All and all, a pretty effective job and continuity.
Now compare the continuity at IU. I cannot believe that Greenspan and Crean thought 1 month after Crean was proclaiming "It's Indiana" that would be looking at only seven scholarships players (four are mid-level incoming Freshman recruits) and a walk-on. Indiana has to be prepared for its worst season in its 100+ year history next year.
Continuity matters. Even though Crean is a hirer profile coach that is getting praise far and wide, IU imploded in the last month anyway. While this was happening, Buzz managed to hold everything together at MU.
Point, when you bring in an outsider, programs turnover quickly. And, it does not matter if the outsider is highly regarded.
Continuity is the only measure that has been completed a few weeks after Buzz was hired and by most measures, Cottingham has to be given props for accomplishing this. The rest remains to be seen.
While I agree with your post for the most part, I would like to add one thought. Continuity is a good thing but it is not always the answer long term. Provided a solid foundation is in place, which it is, MU going backwards for 1-2 years with an outside coach might not have been horrible.
I am excited about next season and nervous moving past that. Any coach, including a high profile outsider, was given a pretty good team for next year. Continuity does not guarantee success. TC is a jag but actually has easier job since his team at IU vanished. Every coach wants his own type player.
I remember when KO came here and cleaned out the stiffs. Granted that team he inherited sucked. MU really had no players with exception of SC I would have cleared out. But in theory with a on of seniors coming back the team will be different in two years due to graduation.
Buzz has a major job ahead of him replacing three key seniors. I have my fingers crossed he can do it.
I can't blame TC for cleaning house at IU.....that team was going to suck regardless. Now he gets to bring in his own slugs that fit his style. This IU team should be fairly horrible for at least 2 years. In year 3-4, they better improve significantly or they will be calling for TC's head at IU and he will end up coaching at Lamar.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 03, 2008, 07:26:43 AM
When Buzz was hired, continuity was stressed.
Buzz lost SC, nice kid but wasn't going to be a factor. And he lost two recruits, NW and TT. He effectively replaced NW with Jimmy Butler. Remember that MU was one over the scholarship limit so somebody had to go regardless. All and all, a pretty effective job and continuity.
Now compare the continuity at IU. I cannot believe that Greenspan and Crean thought 1 month after Crean was proclaiming "It's Indiana" that would be looking at only seven scholarships players (four are mid-level incoming Freshman recruits) and a walk-on. Indiana has to be prepared for its worst season in its 100+ year history next year.
Continuity matters. Even though Crean is a hirer profile coach that is getting praise far and wide, IU imploded in the last month anyway. While this was happening, Buzz managed to hold everything together at MU.
Point, when you bring in an outsider, programs turnover quickly. And, it does not matter if the outsider is highly regarded.
Continuity is the only measure that has been completed a few weeks after Buzz was hired and by most measures, Cottingham has to be given props for accomplishing this. The rest remains to be seen.
Comparing the situations at Indiana and Marquette is a futile exercise. About as opposite a situation as you could find.
Continuity does matter. That has been achieved at Marquette to this point. Also some roster moves have been made that will help the team. The exit of SC. The non arrival of Nicks Williams and TT meant Buzz had some latitude in adjusting the roster for the coming season and beyond.
Jimmy Butler is a great pick up with more size than Nick Williams. No knock on Nick but Marquette needed another type of player for the coming season. SC was an early swing by Crean and an attempt to help land Nankvil (sp) that didn't happen. The best hope would have been that SC would prove some outside firepower. Athleticism was a question for high D1 ball. The outside shooting can be addressed in late recruiting or in the 09 class.
TT was the only loss on the recruiting trail after the change and Buzz gave it his best shot. Buzz has a scholarship to use and a staff with an outstanding track record for recruiting. This is really a nice situation -- a scholarship available for a late gem and four scholarships to work with in the '09 cycle. You have full staff. There's time to get the job done without losing a recruiting cycle.
The only question I have is game coaching and we'll see. You can't coach players who are not on your roster. ;)
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 03, 2008, 07:26:43 AM
When Buzz was hired, continuity was stressed.
Buzz lost SC, nice kid but wasn't going to be a factor. And he lost two recruits, NW and TT. He effectively replaced NW with Jimmy Butler. Remember that MU was one over the scholarship limit so somebody had to go regardless. All and all, a pretty effective job and continuity.
Now compare the continuity at IU. I cannot believe that Greenspan and Crean thought 1 month after Crean was proclaiming "It's Indiana" that would be looking at only seven scholarships players (four are mid-level incoming Freshman recruits) and a walk-on. Indiana has to be prepared for its worst season in its 100+ year history next year.
Continuity matters. Even though Crean is a hirer profile coach that is getting praise far and wide, IU imploded in the last month anyway. While this was happening, Buzz managed to hold everything together at MU.
Point, when you bring in an outsider, programs turnover quickly. And, it does not matter if the outsider is highly regarded.
Continuity is the only measure that has been completed a few weeks after Buzz was hired and by most measures, Cottingham has to be given props for accomplishing this. The rest remains to be seen.
Most of the IU fans are absolutely thrilled with what Crean did by cleaning house. They had some very bad amigos on that team in many ways.
You have to look at things long term and short term.
Long term, Crean's doing the right thing. A big part of that job is to clean it up, that starts with getting rid of all the problems which is what they've done. Short term, they're going to suck bad.
For MU, short term we "may" have done the right thing, long term we won't know for several years.
On paper MU lost their two best recruits and Nick Williams may have ended up TC's top rated recruit ever at MU. I do find it funny that the same people who value continuty are the same who dismissed transfers by saying you're made better by cutting loose dead weight. If continuty yeilds your 3rd and 4th best recruit, is that better?
I like Jimmy B a lot but lets be honest, we haven't seen a difference maker from Juco since Ty Baldwin. Jimmy B is replacing a concensus Top 40 player and Mr Basketball in Alabama, big shoes to fill for a kid who last year didn't have a solid D1 offer.
Now granted all of the above is "on paper" and I know games aren't won on paper. If they were, the King of Game Prep would have gotten out of the 1st round more than twice.
IU, for all it's faults is a place where the general public wants to win clean. Once TC gets players the pressure will make diamonds out of coal but until then they will offer a learning curve if they are making some progress and doing things the right way. For my money no fanbase values doing it the right way more than IU. Thye just fired a coach who had them positioned as a FF darkhorse for excessive phone calls and skipped classes. Over at Iowa Steve Alford had sexual predators on the team and he was eventually run out for lack of winning.
In the end, I am optimistic about Buzz. I met him and heard him at the players banquet and was very impressed. He does seem to have a special quality to him, but I wouldn't start applauding the results just yet.
Quote from: Schoolyard on May 03, 2008, 11:46:02 AM
On paper MU lost their two best recruits and Nick Williams may have ended up TC's top rated recruit ever at MU.
I like Jimmy B a lot but lets be honest, we haven't seen a difference maker from Juco since Ty Baldwin. Jimmy B is replacing a concensus Top 40 player and Mr Basketball in Alabama, big shoes to fill for a kid who last year didn't have a solid D1 offer.
Nick Williams is not the top rated MU recruit under Crean nor is he a "consensus top 40 player," nor was he Mr. Alabama Basketball. JyMychael Green was Mr. Alabama Basketball. I was excited to see Nick play at Marquette and I was very encouraged by what I saw of him in games I saw him play in, but I was more excited about Taylor. Tyshawn Taylor has a bigger upside than Nick Williams, in my opinion. Williams looks like a more athletic Joe Chapman. He certainly has a good deal more upside than Chapman, but he isn't the next Dwyane Wade, let's put it that way.
I've seen Jimmy Butler on tape and I like him a great deal. He's a different sort of player than Nick Williams, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare the two. As Buzz has said, Butler's effectiveness will be determined by the extent to which he can play D. I agree completely-- D is something that JUCO's unfortunately do not stress. That said, Butler is a very talented offensive player and I think he can be a solid contributor at Marquette, as will Joe Fulce (Fulce will surprise some of you!).
I do disagree that we haven't had a difference maker from a JUCO since Ty Baldwin. Marcus Jackson who averaged 8.5 rpg his senior year, was a difference maker. On top of that, both Butler and Fulce have three years rather than the standard two to make a difference (or should I say "Be the Difference"?) at Marquette. I like what I see of both of them. If I had to pick one, I'd go with Fulce, but I think both have a chance to contribute to our future success. Defense is the real question, and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer at this point whether they will be good defenders or not.
My point here is not to say that Williams is not a loss. He is a loss, and would have contributed nicely at Marquette. I just wanted to set the record straight about his rankings and his awards.
Continuity - in light of Judas's departure - is important, but it must not mean complacency.
The most important thing continuity gives Buzz is a good opportunity to get his name out there nationally. He'll be the HC of a ranked and respectable team next year. Two or three wins in the tournament would especially improve his prospects long term.
hold onto your horses - lets evaluate this when the season starts. I agree he has done a great job on hiring a staff. He basically held onto his recruits - no biggie here - and signed an unproven JUCO. Until this guy signs a legit div 1 recruit, we need to hold our praise.
Quote from: Schoolyard on May 03, 2008, 11:46:02 AM
On paper MU lost their two best recruits and Nick Williams may have ended up TC's top rated recruit ever at MU. I do find it funny that the same people who value continuty are the same who dismissed transfers by saying you're made better by cutting loose dead weight. If continuty yeilds your 3rd and 4th best recruit, is that better?
I like Jimmy B a lot but lets be honest, we haven't seen a difference maker from Juco since Ty Baldwin. Jimmy B is replacing a concensus Top 40 player and Mr Basketball in Alabama, big shoes to fill for a kid who last year didn't have a solid D1 offer.
Now granted all of the above is "on paper" and I know games aren't won on paper. If they were, the King of Game Prep would have gotten out of the 1st round more than twice.
IU, for all it's faults is a place where the general public wants to win clean. Once TC gets players the pressure will make diamonds out of coal but until then they will offer a learning curve if they are making some progress and doing things the right way. For my money no fanbase values doing it the right way more than IU. Thye just fired a coach who had them positioned as a FF darkhorse for excessive phone calls and skipped classes. Over at Iowa Steve Alford had sexual predators on the team and he was eventually run out for lack of winning.
In the end, I am optimistic about Buzz. I met him and heard him at the players banquet and was very impressed. He does seem to have a special quality to him, but I wouldn't start applauding the results just yet.
Actually Williams was the 6A Alabama player of the year, but not Mr. Alabama.
Quote from: Schoolyard on May 03, 2008, 11:46:02 AM
I like Jimmy B a lot but lets be honest, we haven't seen a difference maker from Juco since Ty Baldwin. Jimmy B is replacing a concensus Top 40 player and Mr Basketball in Alabama, big shoes to fill for a kid who last year didn't have a solid D1 offer.
Consensus? You're kidding right? One list has Williams in the top 40, one in the top 70 and nobody else in the top 100. In fact he barely makes the top 150 in some lists.
So far so good with Buzz. His challenge of winning over the skeptics is nothing compared to the recruiting challenge he has the next twelve months. Like it or not we have continuity. For Buzz to deliver us to the next level he needs to recruit better players.
I would rather see Buzz sink or swim recruiting top players then continue to bring in the players TC brought in. TC did a good job but I do not believe he was an impact recruiter. I have a friend in LA that tells me that Buzz is well thought of in the recruiting circles. If that is true, lets recruit better players.
Until we see better players - one has to appreciate the job Crean did with the 3 amigos, Novak, Diener and Wade.
Quote from: bma725 on May 03, 2008, 03:54:09 PM
Consensus? You're kidding right? One list has Williams in the top 40, one in the top 70 and nobody else in the top 100. In fact he barely makes the top 150 in some lists.
Definitely not consensus, but when one factors in who wanted him at the end, I'd say he's pretty good. Arkansas, Indiana, Alabama, Kansas State, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech.
Ok, my bad...I didn't know Bama did separate divisions recognition.
And with regards to his recriuiting ranking, TC left me disappointed enough times that I stopped paying close attention but I thought he was a top 40 guy. I know ESPN has him at 40, I guess I thought he was concensus, my bad. It is typical though, of some of you TC freaks, you were so conditioned to love then hate (Amo, ODB, Mason etc) that you're able to flip the switch. Before Nick was the sign that Wade worked, that MU was national, that TC had great assistant coaches, now we're seeing quotes like the one below:
Quote from: bma725 on May 03, 2008, 03:54:09 PM
Consensus? You're kidding right? One list has Williams in the top 40, one in the top 70 and nobody else in the top 100. In fact he barely makes the top 150 in some lists.
Before now not even PRN would call NW a fringe 150 player.
Quote from: mviale on May 03, 2008, 04:15:54 PM
Until we see better players - one has to appreciate the job Crean did with the 3 amigos, Novak, Diener and Wade.
They were definitely players, but they were within 300 miles of Milwaukee. With the opportunity to play locally in front of family and friends, these three were easier to recruit and sign.
But, what big name recruit did Crean get that was NOT from the upper midwest?
Cubillan?
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on May 04, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
They were definitely players, but they were within 300 miles of Milwaukee. With the opportunity to play locally in front of family and friends, these three were easier to recruit and sign.
But, what big name recruit did Crean get that was NOT from the upper midwest?
Cubillan?
Um... Lazar Hayward? ::)
Lazar was definitely a breakthrough on the East Coast for Crean and starting relationships with the Hurleys was a start, but a slow build. Crean didnt have the wherewithal to hire assistants with BE connections. Buzz has the sense to do this with the collins and layer hires. I also think Crean probably had handcuffs due to his ties to Izzo in some midwest areas.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 03, 2008, 07:26:43 AM
When Buzz was hired, continuity was stressed.
Buzz lost SC, nice kid but wasn't going to be a factor. And he lost two recruits, NW and TT. He effectively replaced NW with Jimmy Butler. Remember that MU was one over the scholarship limit so somebody had to go regardless. All and all, a pretty effective job and continuity.
Now compare the continuity at IU. I cannot believe that Greenspan and Crean thought 1 month after Crean was proclaiming "It's Indiana" that would be looking at only seven scholarships players (four are mid-level incoming Freshman recruits) and a walk-on. Indiana has to be prepared for its worst season in its 100+ year history next year.
Continuity matters. Even though Crean is a hirer profile coach that is getting praise far and wide, IU imploded in the last month anyway. While this was happening, Buzz managed to hold everything together at MU.
Point, when you bring in an outsider, programs turnover quickly. And, it does not matter if the outsider is highly regarded.
Continuity is the only measure that has been completed a few weeks after Buzz was hired and by most measures, Cottingham has to be given props for accomplishing this. The rest remains to be seen.
So you are saying that if IU would have hired from within the program the would have magically not sucked this year? If we would have hired from outside the program than we would have?
Another hire and we'd have lost an additional recruit or two, then again a different hire and he may have been able to bring a kid here that he had been recruiting (like crean did with williams).
How are you comparing a team returning 3 starting seniors and a starting jr to a team that has no one? This has nothing to do with either teams hiring process.
Quote from: RawdogDX on May 04, 2008, 10:29:45 AM
So you are saying that if IU would have hired from within the program the would have magically not sucked this year? If we would have hired from outside the program than we would have?
Another hire and we'd have lost an additional recruit or two, then again a different hire and he may have been able to bring a kid here that he had been recruiting (like crean did with williams).
How are you comparing a team returning 3 starting seniors and a starting jr to a team that has no one? This has nothing to do with either teams hiring process.
Why Crean was hired in Bloomington, everyone was giddy was excitment. That is everyone except the players and recruits and he lost a ton.
When Buzz was hired, everyone was disappiointed. That is everyone expect the players and recruits as the turnover was minimal.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 04, 2008, 12:20:50 PM
Why Crean was hired in Bloomington, everyone was giddy was excitment. That is everyone except the players and recruits and he lost a ton.
When Buzz was hired, everyone was disappiointed. That is everyone expect the players and recruits as the turnover was minimal.
:o
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 04, 2008, 12:20:50 PM
Why Crean was hired in Bloomington, everyone was giddy was excitment. That is everyone except the players and recruits and he lost a ton.
When Buzz was hired, everyone was disappiointed. That is everyone expect the players and recruits as the turnover was minimal.
Yeah, Nick Williams, Maurice Creek, likely Sutton, possibly Jamil Wilson and others....they look very disappointed. ::)
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 04, 2008, 12:20:50 PM
Why Crean was hired in Bloomington, everyone was giddy was excitment. That is everyone except the players and recruits and he lost a ton.
When Buzz was hired, everyone was disappiointed. That is everyone expect the players and recruits as the turnover was minimal.
There was turnover happening at indiana. THis turnover was GOING to happen. It didn't matter who they hired.
There wasn't much turnover happening here it didn't matter who we hired. IT is stupid for you to say that these things are related. And as for recruits being upset, it seems like crean is recruiting just fine there. As I said he would. You are being completely short sited about this. Indiana will be competative in two years and will compete for the b11 title in 3.
Buzz kept a recruit or two that we would have lost had we hired outside. BUT that outside hire may well have brought in a recruit or two that he had been working on. Buzz will be a good hire depending on what he can do in the future not because some kid from texas didn't ask out of his commitment.
Rawdog---Exactly right!!! Buzz will be judged by the future and not by a recruit out of Texas that may or may not come. IU accepted the fact they were going backwards to move ahead. MU made a decision to remain the same for the short term....let's see what happens in the future.