MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: THEGYMBAR on April 21, 2008, 10:57:58 PM
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Two weeks into the Buzz experiment and curious on "real" feelings today. I actually tried to convince myself it was not the worst the thing in MU ball history and now I am not sure. Not looking to start a revolt here, just honest feelings after two weeks. My opinion, I AM SCARED TO DEATH!!!!!
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I don't think the last two weeks have been the worst thing in MU history. The worst for me was the 4 years I attended MU with Dukiet as coach and 8 straight losses to Notre Dame.
I think/hope Buzz will work out fine in the long run. I was disappointed with his hire, not because it was him, but because it happened so quickly and I believed the program had reached a level where MU could get an experienced head coach from a quality program. This may have happened, but the powers-that-be decided not to wait, that Buzz was the man. We will see if they were right.
I am not scared to death, but I have been jolted out of my complacency and feeling that the MU program was finally on the right track. Now I am not so sure.
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Buzz is hungry and that is good. Any more delay in hiring a coach would have set the team back and set recruiting back.
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I agree with Tulsa Warrior. I think we would have had a disaster if we took three weeks to hire a coach. No Butler and I think Fulce and O'Tule follow Williams to Indiana. We also lose Eric Williams. My gut feeling is that Mbakwe is gone to. Even if we hired Williams after three weeks the time delay would have been very destructive. It certainly would have made Williams look like an after thought. If you look at all the money Oklahoma St. was willing to pay, they did not hire anyone with a great record. providence hired a coach that had a great year, but he has no proven track record. Stanford looks lie they will be hiring their assistant. I know he is older and more experienced than Buzz, but I rather have the young energenic guy. Heck, LSU hired a coach that manged to get tossed from an NCAA tournament game. I am sorry Crean is gone, but I am looking forward to the change.
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Maybe we should protest! ::)
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I am cautiously optimistic. We all agree that the returning team is loaded. If Buzz can get good results out of this experienced team, which I think (hope) he can--the experienced players are taking ownership of this team; they will not accept failure--then he will have a winning record to point to and the recruits will follow.
Then we continue to roll.
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No one, I repeat NO ONE, was saying take 3 weeks to hire a coach. Some of us were saying we should be "daring" and wait a whopping 7 days, instead of 3....if it meant taking a few more shots at some guys with experience.
As for comfort level, I have no idea. Won't know a thing for many months.
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I can say one thing, Buzz will not be out worked, and that means a lot. Why don't we give the guy a chance before we write off the entire program? It seems like most on this board think the world is ending.
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I am still extremely wary of this situation. I have no doubt that Buzz is a hard worker, very detail oriented and a relationship builder. I still think he's WAY over his head here. And I question why we hired a guy whose recruiting strength is in Texas.
I agree with Chicos. I would have preferred a few more days of searching and I would like to hear that they at least considered some of the people that Rosiak reported were interested in the job.
There is no denying that of all the coaching searches conducted in Division 1 this year, ours was the least impressive and least thorough of the bunch. We hired a guy who's been with the program for 9 months when head coaches of SIU, Illinois, Wright St. and others were knocking on our door.
It makes no sense.
Even the guy Drake hired has more experienced than our guy. Can somebody please explain that to me?
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The only possible explanations are:
1. Cottingham sees something in Buzz that convinced him he's our man, or
2. Cottingham lost his nerve and settled on what was handy.
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The only possible explanations are:
1. Cottingham sees something in Buzz that convinced him he's our man, or
2. Cottingham lost his nerve and settled on what was handy.
Maybe a little bit of #2, but mostly #1. SC thinks that Buzz is something special.
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Maybe a little bit of #2, but mostly #1. SC thinks that Buzz is something special.
After knowing him for how long? It would be interesting to know how all the other places he's been think of him.
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I don't buy that. I know Fr. Wild is not Cottingham, but he admitted to barely knowing Buzz. I doubt also that Cottingham had much exposure to Crean's assistant coaches, especially one that had been here for just a few months.
I just sincerely believe that one of the boosters was behind this hire and Cottingham was almost forced to adhere. There's really no other explanation for taking a chance like this. He is the least qualifed coach Marquette has ever hired by a wide margin.
With The Al, the Big East, three straight NCAA appearances and 4 seniors returning, it defies all logic that more experienced and qualifed guys weren't interested. It's flat out impossible.
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I'm feeling better about Buzz, but my issue was never with Buzz in the first place. It was with with how the search was handled. I don't think its possible to feel good about an inexperienced AD rushing to hire an inexperienced head coach without exploring the other possible alternatives..
My feeling about the search is the same way I feel about Crean. I don't begrudge Crean for leaving - he was here for 9 yrs and did some good things - but I do have an issue with the manner in which he left. Hard to feel good about that.
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Hang in there...we don't tip off for another seven months...I am just as anxious as anyone but the deal is done...believe me, the first game we come from behind to win or successfully hold the lead with less than two minutes to play (aka pulling an anti-Crean)...I will be hooked.
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Of course one of the great ironies in this hire is if he does really well, he's going to go back to Texas or the south when an equal type of position opens up. That's one of the drawbacks of hiring someone in that capacity, but I can live with that one. I just hope we don't spend 100% of our recruiting focus on Texas and the south, because when the day comes and he does leave the Texas pipeline is gone. I don't think Buzz will do that, he needs to keep the Midwest HS and AAU coaches happy and I assume will recruit very hard in those areas. He has to.
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PRN---I am in complete agreement that a big donor as behind the hire. TC and Doc are tight and had great relationship with a donor to be named later. I think that MU tightened up when donor made his opinion known.
I highly question the knowledge of the game of our biggest sugar daddy. Running a billion dollar business is not the same as Div 1 top tier bball program. Ego drives certain guys. I am afraid this is what happened.
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PRN---I am in complete agreement that a big donor as behind the hire. TC and Doc are tight and had great relationship with a donor to be named later. I think that MU tightened up when donor made his opinion known.
I highly question the knowledge of the game of our biggest sugar daddy. Running a billion dollar business is not the same as Div 1 top tier bball program. Ego drives certain guys. I am afraid this is what happened.
When will he be named? Why not now?
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PRN---I am in complete agreement that a big donor as behind the hire. TC and Doc are tight and had great relationship with a donor to be named later. I think that MU tightened up when donor made his opinion known.
I highly question the knowledge of the game of our biggest sugar daddy. Running a billion dollar business is not the same as Div 1 top tier bball program. Ego drives certain guys. I am afraid this is what happened.
'Gym', I disagree- the donor you are alludeing to has an excellent knowledge of college bball. I spent many halftimes of MU games in the hallway at the arena dissecting games and strategies. Further, he played the game. Further still, while I know he is responsible for much of Crean's clout and riches, I also believe he was a major part of the pressure on Crean to perform, which gave impetus to his constant job hunting.
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why would this donor push for Buzz instead of a Bennett, for example?
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I'm very excited/optimistic for the short-term (2008/2009 season). I'm scared to death about the 2009/2010 season and beyond.
Again, it comes down to how this team does this coming season that will make/break Buzz. If they "underachieve" in the minds of fans/pundits (I'm saying a one-and-done in the NCAA), then it will very much hurt Buzz' chances of landing kids in the future, as well give other coaches an opportunity to negative-recruit against MU.
"I hear you are looking at Marquette too, huh? Their coach, Buzz whats-his-name? He has, what, two years coaching experience now and they did bad with a loaded team? Hmmmmm.."
We won't know about the Buzz hire for three years. At that time, it should be very apparent what we have. A great, hungry young coach, or a failure of massive proportions that drives fans away and creates apathy with the program as we make our way to the bottom of the BEast.
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NOTE - I'm not predicting a one-and-done in the NCAA as poorly stated above. I'm saying that's what I think people would use as a standard to say the team "underachieved".
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Two weeks into the Buzz experiment and curious on "real" feelings today. I actually tried to convince myself it was not the worst the thing in MU ball history and now I am not sure. Not looking to start a revolt here, just honest feelings after two weeks. My opinion, I AM SCARED TO DEATH!!!!!
Seems to me this is a conversation we should be having in March of 2009. Right now all we can do is hold on, hope for the best, and continue to support our program. Let's not be "fair weather fans" and do what we can to rally behind the program. I love Marquette and, for the most part, it has loved me back. I've moved on past Crean and am ready to get behind the new coach and continue to support the program.
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Ave, I'm with you. At this point, it's not worth getting mad about the hire anymore. It is what it is and it ain't changing. Get behind the team and hope/pray for the best.
Then, about one year from, everyone will either be thrilled, going nuts with anxiety, filled with hate, or all three. But we have at least one year.
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'Gym', I disagree- the donor you are alludeing to has an excellent knowledge of college bball. I spent many halftimes of MU games in the hallway at the arena dissecting games and strategies. Further, he played the game. Further still, while I know he is responsible for much of Crean's clout and riches, I also believe he was a major part of the pressure on Crean to perform, which gave impetus to his constant job hunting.
Why the secretive tone about Dick Strong here? The guy's influence over MU hoops is part of the public record.
...Marquette University, where R. Strong exerts such control that he is apparently responsible for Marquette’s failure to renew a former basketball coach’s contract. It was reported that R. Strong conditioned a gift to Marquette on the appointment of a new coach. See Avoiding a fire sale, THE BUSINESS JOURNAL, Nov. 21, 2003, at A1.
From http://www.chimicles.com/pdf/Mutual%20Fund%20Complaints/Website%20complaints/Strong/Strong%20%20Consolidated%20Amended%20Fund%20Derivative%20Complaint%20.pdf (http://www.chimicles.com/pdf/Mutual%20Fund%20Complaints/Website%20complaints/Strong/Strong%20%20Consolidated%20Amended%20Fund%20Derivative%20Complaint%20.pdf)
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PRN---I am in complete agreement that a big donor as behind the hire. TC and Doc are tight and had great relationship with a donor to be named later. I think that MU tightened up when donor made his opinion known.
I highly question the knowledge of the game of our biggest sugar daddy. Running a billion dollar business is not the same as Div 1 top tier bball program. Ego drives certain guys. I am afraid this is what happened.
So, just out of curiousity, how do you know that Buzz was Strong's 1st choice? How do you know that Strong/MU AD/Fr. Wild/et. al. did not try very hard to get one of the popularly named coaches out here?
I would think people a bit closer to the program might say that you are waaaaaaaaaaaay off base here.
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I don't buy that. I know Fr. Wild is not Cottingham, but he admitted to barely knowing Buzz. I doubt also that Cottingham had much exposure to Crean's assistant coaches, especially one that had been here for just a few months.
I just sincerely believe that one of the boosters was behind this hire and Cottingham was almost forced to adhere. There's really no other explanation for taking a chance like this. He is the least qualifed coach Marquette has ever hired by a wide margin.
With The Al, the Big East, three straight NCAA appearances and 4 seniors returning, it
defies all logic that more
experienced and qualifed guys weren't interested. It's flat out impossible.
Here's how it went down. Crean convinced the mega donor(s), aka Dick Strong, that Buzz was the guy MU needed to hire. Impossible to know for sure if Crean really believed this or was fricking us over for his own selfish reasons, but I have my own opinion on that. These are the things that happen when you prostitute yourself for the $$$$.
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4ever, if only we had prostituted ourselves for the money for the Warriors nickname.
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Chico---right on with the Warrior name. I was secretive on Strong name on purpose. At PC MU mentioned everyone involved in the process and never mentioned Strong by name. Everyone knows Dick's involvement in the program.
I did not realize he played college ball. Where did he play? I still question his knowledge of the game today. Yes, he put pressure on TC of late, namely after Georgetown and Stanford losses. But, I still do not think he has finger on the process to the right level.
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Augoman--I do not know many out of Dick's inner circle that would share halftime talks with him. If you are having these talks with him I will change my opinion on his knowledge. He has pretty tight circle around him..you must be former business associate, tennis or golf partner.
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4ever, if only we had prostituted ourselves for the money for the Warriors nickname.
Now that would have made perfectly good sense.
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Augoman--I do not know many out of Dick's inner circle that would share halftime talks with him. If you are having these talks with him I will change my opinion on his knowledge. He has pretty tight circle around him..you must be former business associate, tennis or golf partner.
Per this business article, I guess we don't have to worry:
Dick's Strong Suit
Fred W. Frailey
MANAGERS | As a picker of stocks, Dick Strong struggles. His funds stand out because he excels as a PICKER OF PEOPLE
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1318/is_/ai_63668171
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Is Strong an MU alum? I didn't think so?
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Of course one of the great ironies in this hire is if he does really well, he's going to go back to Texas or the south when an equal type of position opens up. That's one of the drawbacks of hiring someone in that capacity, but I can live with that one. I just hope we don't spend 100% of our recruiting focus on Texas and the south, because when the day comes and he does leave the Texas pipeline is gone.
How could you possibly know that? Certainly anything is possible, but thinking it's a done deal is ridiculous.
Lots and lots of coaches have had long, successful careers far, far away from where they grew up. And while Buzz may have grown up in Texas, he has no apparent strong ties to a particular school with an equal position, i.e. no alma mater to go back to like Bob Huggins, no place he was a former assistant like Bill Self or Roy Williams.
Could he leave someday? Sure, he probably will. Is that a reason to be against this hire? No way.
This reminds me of the post-Deane debate on the old board in which some argued that MU should never hire a young up-and-comer like Tom Crean because he'd be gone at the first opportunity. Indiana hardly was the first opportunity and, contrary to the mostly revisionist history around here, it's been a very good nine years for Marquette basketball.
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Is Strong an MU alum? I didn't think so?
No, he attended UW-Madison
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How could you possibly know that? Certainly anything is possible, but thinking it's a done deal is ridiculous.
Lots and lots of coaches have had long, successful careers far, far away from where they grew up. And while Buzz may have grown up in Texas, he has no apparent strong ties to a particular school with an equal position, i.e. no alma mater to go back to like Bob Huggins, no place he was a former assistant like Bill Self or Roy Williams.
Could he leave someday? Sure, he probably will. Is that a reason to be against this hire? No way.
This reminds me of the post-Deane debate on the old board in which some argued that MU should never hire a young up-and-comer like Tom Crean because he'd be gone at the first opportunity. Indiana hardly was the first opportunity and, contrary to the mostly revisionist history around here, it's been a very good nine years for Marquette basketball.
I don't know it....just as no one knows if he'll be a good coach. But based on the number of people that get to MU as coaches and can't wait to get their ass out of there, well I'll go with the odds....at least the last 30 years. But it would be rather ironic.
One of the reasons MU hired Crean and this was well known in the department at the time, they wanted a MIDWEST guy because they thought it would finally end the pattern of people running away from the program. That worked for 9 years. But Dukiet, Deane and O'Neill were east coast guys so they wanted to break from that.
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Chico---Exactly. Our sugar daddy is a Badger. He is ours by default. Ab Nichols beat him to the punch at UW and he adopted MU. I still question his knowledge. I respect and appreciate his support, but he is a Badger.
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Chico---Exactly. Our sugar daddy is a Badger. He is ours by default. Ab Nichols beat him to the punch at UW and he adopted MU. I still question his knowledge. I respect and appreciate his support, but he is a Badger.
His money is still green. ;) I worry more about our car salesman alum then anything, the one actually mentioned by name in the search. The one that has Gold all over his hands. Ugh
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Is Strong an MU alum? I didn't think so?
No, he attended UW-Madison
Umm...he dropped out of Madison...no?
Richard Strong received a BA from Baldwin-Wallace College and an MBA from Baldwin-Wallace College. (http://mutualfunds.about.com/cs/investmentfraud/p/richard_strong.htm)
Also, from this article (which is a good read about him):
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/11/24/353793/index.htm
He moved to Wisconsin to enroll in the University of Wisconsin law school--which he soon abandoned for the business school. He got fired from every job he had out of business school--"I'm impossible," he conceded to FORTUNE in a 1996 article--and his first attempt at running his own show also ended in failure. He co-founded a firm with Ab Nicholas--who is also now a well-known fund manager--but the firm got hammered during the 1973 bear market. The two men parted enemies and haven't spoken since.
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Rocky---Great insight. I thought he went to some small school before or after UW. I knew he and Ab parted enemies. DS is an unique guy, but seems difficult.
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Actually an alum doesn't mean you graduated, at least for most schools. Dick Cheney didn't graduate from UW-Madison either but is considered an alum. As is Tom Snyder at MU, though he never graduated. That being said, he's an alum of the business school at UW-Madison
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/funds/2004-05-21-strong-side_x.htm
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Whoops...looks like the first article is incorrect. He got his BA from Baldwin-Wallace College and an MBA from the University of Wisconsin - at least according to this:
http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2004/05/27/0405270270.php
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Rocky---Great insight. I thought he went to some small school before or after UW. I knew he and Ab parted enemies. DS is an unique guy, but seems difficult.
If you read that entire article - it doesn't paint him in very good light at all. Of course, that was written when the SEC was investigating him.
Though, I thought this paragraph was interesting - could this be what happened between him and TC?
He also had a habit of becoming infatuated with a new hire and then turning on him or her. "We called it the shiny-new-car thing," says a former aide. "He would make a big splash when he hired someone. He would talk to that person all the time, and he'd insist that everyone listen to his wisdom. But it took very little time before the shine was off. When that happened, you didn't exist in his eyes."
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With all the insight on DS on here, do we think he should be our sugar daddy? I respect the heck out of what he did at his company. College ball is nothing like running a fund. If he is pulling the strings I hope his hook os as quick with a coach as it was with fund managers. He paid a ton to get them but did not hesitate to dump them if they underperformed. He had a very quick hook in business.
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This reminds me of the post-Deane debate on the old board in which some argued that MU should never hire a young up-and-comer like Tom Crean because he'd be gone at the first opportunity. Indiana hardly was the first opportunity and, contrary to the mostly revisionist history around here, it's been a very good nine years for Marquette basketball.
Are you kidding me, Pakuni? Do you still not accept the fact that Crean sought the Illinois job and was rejected? That he sought the Ohio St. job and was never considered? That he sought the Virginia job and was rejected?
Other than Little Rock, Arkansas, Indiana WAS the first opportunity!
What is with you people? You're still defending the guy? He's been a complete ass for 9 years, finally proves it to everybody, and you are still acting like you're in love with him.
Some people on this board need a slap in the face to wake themselves from the haze that's settled over them as a result of too much time under a sun lamp.
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PRN---Only reason TC stayed so long was because no one else was dumb enough to pay him what MU did. In that regard his leaving is a great thing. Can you believe another school took that burden away? I would had a bet a billion dollars we were stuck with him for 20y. He wanted out for five years and everyone blew him off. Funny thing is he was excited about getting IU job and he was third pic. Other than being third pic in the bang Angelia Jolie sweepstakes I pass on being #3.
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PRN---Only reason TC stayed so long was because no one else was dumb enough to pay him what MU did. In that regard his leaving is a great thing. Can you believe another school took that burden away? I would had a bet a billion dollars we were stuck with him for 20y. He wanted out for five years and everyone blew him off. Funny thing is he was excited about getting IU job and he was third pic. Other than being third pic in the bang Angelia Jolie sweepstakes I pass on being #3.
I just hope the money we save in salary for Crean and his do-nothing father-in-law leads to a better home schedule next year or at least the start of a home-and-home.
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PRN---Only reason TC stayed so long was because no one else was dumb enough to pay him what MU did. In that regard his leaving is a great thing. Can you believe another school took that burden away? I would had a bet a billion dollars we were stuck with him for 20y. He wanted out for five years and everyone blew him off. Funny thing is he was excited about getting IU job and he was third pic. Other than being third pic in the bang Angelia Jolie sweepstakes I pass on being #3.
TC was T(hird) C(hoice)? Who were one and two, please?
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Tony Bennett was first, that's common knowledge. I don't know who might have been second.
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Crean was 2nd choice at IU.
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PRN you are right on! JD recently explained Tommy's short comings (most recent) by blaming it on IU.