ESPN.com's Katz calls Williams hire a gamble
Written by: Emmett Prosser
While he has nothing but glowing comments about Indiana's decision to lure Tom Crean away from Marquette, Andy Katz of ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=3349522) is lukewarm on the hiring of Buzz Williams.
"The gem, without question so far, was Indiana. The chaotic state of the Hoosier Nation was calmed down by the coup-like hiring of Tom Crean," writes Katz.
Despite the fact that Williams helped rebuild a Texas A&M program once in dire straits, Katz seems to think that MU went for a quick fix with Williams.
Katz wrote: Hiring Buzz Williams was a gamble. These kind of moves to bump up the assistant to keep everyone in the program and the incoming recruits happy can either work -- like Jamie Dixon of Pitt or Frank Martin this past season at Kansas State -- or they can implode -- like Jerry DeGregorio at Rhode Island.
Ff Williams has anything close to the type of success in the Big East that Dixon has had, MU athletic director Steve Cottingham will be quite pleased.
(http://blogs.jsonline.com/aggbug.aspx?PostID=163500)
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/17/espn-com-s-katz-calls-williams-hire-a-gamble.aspx
It certainly wasn't a "safe" hire and judging from the message boards it's created only concern among Marquette fans.
Let's hope Steve Cottingham knows the real qualities necessary of a coach to produce consistent top 25 teams. We have to assume that with Buzz being here the prior year those qualities would of became apparent if he possesses them. Hence, would it of been as big a risk as Katz portrays? Go Buzz! Out recruit and out coach Judas!
Katz is right. Buzz is a huge rsk for a program that has come quite a ways over the past decade.
Hiring Buzz was a panic move induced by Crean's immediate pursuit of the recruits he had already been paid by MU to procure. Had Cottingham been more concerned with the long-term health of the basketball program rather than the short-term goal of preserving a mediocre crop of recruits (and maybe his own job), he would have conducted a more diligent search for a qualified (i.e., experienced) coach.
All the rationalizing about Buzz's recruiting skills is simply putting lipstick on a pig. Buzz would have stayed on as an assistant (was any other school beating down the door in an attempt to hire Buzz away from MU?). Instead, Cottingham gave a ludicrous 6-year contract to an assistant coach with an incredibly thin resume.
Buzz may be a great guy personally, and I sincerely hope he turns into the next Jamie Dixon or Frank Martin, but his hiring was a blow to MU's recently restored credibility.
Quote from: 3Mer on April 18, 2008, 08:35:12 AM
Hiring Buzz was a panic move induced by Judas's immediate pursuit of the recruits he had already been paid by MU to procure. Had Cottingham been more concerned with the long-term health of the basketball program rather than the short-term goal of preserving a mediocre crop of recruits (and maybe his own job), he would have conducted a more diligent search for a qualified (i.e., experienced) coach.
All the rationalizing about Buzz's recruiting skills is simply putting lipstick on a pig. Buzz would have stayed on as an assistant (was any other school beating down the door in an attempt to hire Buzz away from MU?). Instead, Cottingham gave a ludicrous 6-year contract to an assistant coach with an incredibly thin resume.
Buzz may be a great guy personally, and I sincerely hope he turns into the next Jamie Dixon or Frank Martin, but his hiring was a blow to MU's recently restored credibility.
hold that thought on Frank Martin.........a team with Walker and Beasley is bound to win 20 games and sneak (barely) into the tourney. But what's next at KState?
Same for Buzz ....... MU should win 23+ games next season. But what happens down the line?
Quote from: 3Mer on April 18, 2008, 08:35:12 AM
Had Cottingham been more concerned with the long-term health of the basketball program rather than the short-term goal of preserving a mediocre crop of recruits (and maybe his own job), he would have conducted a more diligent search for a qualified (i.e., experienced) coach.
I agree with a fair amount of what you said, but I really doubt that Cottingham made this hire to preserve his own job. Whether he's a decent AD remains to be seen, but I suspect he's smart enough to know that he made one of the riskiest hires possible. Buzz's hiring really doesn't strike me as a CYA move for Cottingham. Whatever it was (and we'll still be debating this 2-3 years from now), I think Cottingham saw something in Buzz that convinced him that Buzz was a great hire. If he's right, he's a genius and a great judge of coaching talent. If he's wrong, he's out of a job and will have set the program back several years.
Getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. Driving up from Chicago to a game during a bad snowstorm is a gamble. Getting married and having kids is a gamble. Choosing majors and changing jobs is a gamble. Buzz is a gamble. Miller, Bennet, Grant, Lowery et al would have all been gambles in different ways. None of them were sure things. And most of them indicated they DIDN'T WANT TO BE AT MARQUETTE!!!!! So, by the time the MU powers gave the job to Buzz, he looked like the surest thing available to them. Of course he is a gamble. About the only thing that isn't a gamble is whining about it on internet message boards.
No one knows what's down the line, but if Buzz hadn't been hired we might have been looking at six scholarship players and a 10-18 record next year, and the new coach would be starting from scratch. So do you win 24 games next year and keep the winning tradition going in the minds of recruits, or do you rebuild a club that would finish 13th in the BE? I also think MU rushed into the decision, but with each passing day it looks better.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2008, 08:44:28 AM
Getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. Driving up from Chicago to a game during a bad snowstorm is a gamble. Getting married and having kids is a gamble. Choosing majors and changing jobs is a gamble. Buzz is a gamble. Miller, Bennet, Grant, Lowery et al would have all been gambles in different ways. None of them were sure things. And most of them indicated they DIDN'T WANT TO BE AT MARQUETTE!!!!! So, by the time the MU powers gave the job to Buzz, he looked like the surest thing available to them. Of course he is a gamble. About the only thing that isn't a gamble is whining about it on internet message boards.
One man's "whining" is another man's expression of frustrated expectations. I think any fan -- particularly long-term season ticket holders -- have the right to complain when the program they support makes objectively unreasonable decisions. I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid by believing that Buzz's hiring was the result of an appropriately diligent search for the head coach of a Top-20 program.
So lets stage a coup and overthrow Cottingham and Wild and let you and PRN run the place.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2008, 08:44:28 AM
Getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. Driving up from Chicago to a game during a bad snowstorm is a gamble. Getting married and having kids is a gamble. Choosing majors and changing jobs is a gamble. Buzz is a gamble. Miller, Bennet, Grant, Lowery et al would have all been gambles in different ways. None of them were sure things. And most of them indicated they DIDN'T WANT TO BE AT MARQUETTE!!!!! So, by the time the MU powers gave the job to Buzz, he looked like the surest thing available to them. Of course he is a gamble. About the only thing that isn't a gamble is whining about it on internet message boards.
By almost all accounts, Lowery was willing to listen. We were so enamored with the JUCO and Texas contacts of our 9-month assistant, we didn't bother to interview him.
As for the poster that suggests we'd only have 6 scholarship players, that's absolutely and completely ridiculous.
Kids say a lot of things when a coaching switch is made. Very few are willing to sit out an entire year or risk their entire futures by leaving school.
By the way, we still lost our two highest rated recruits.
No matter who we hired, we'd have been a good team next year. It's just that now we'll be a good team with a coach, who is among the least inexperienced in the country.
Earth to Katz... you're an idiot!!
The position has been filled, Buzz is our coach. I too had my concerns about the hire but over the past week he has kept the team intact albeit Christopherson, has recommitments from Fulce, Otule and Erik Williams and recruited Jimmy Butler (all kids who want to get a good Jesuit education). Like D. Wade, Buzz just might be that diamond in the rough. Only time will tell. And if Buzz does succeed here and then decides to go back home to Coach at the University of Texas - Austin, I would not blame him one bit after all the sour grapes about his hire on this board.
You people are absolutely unreal!!! The bottom line here is that no one really knows what MU is going to get with Buzz. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you are not concerned. This doesn't mean we don't support him, but to call Katz an idiot is stupid. People are still mad at him for all of those rumors over the years about Crean which turned out to be true. The hiring of Buzz Williams is a huge risk, this doesn't mean he can't be successful...but to say there is no risk here is beyond foolish.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 18, 2008, 10:12:33 AM
Buzz just might be that diamond in the rough.
GOd, i hope he is, and I really do think there is a chance that is the case. But regardless of if he is, I think people are upset about the choice though because they didn't feel like we should have been looking in the rough, perhaps we should have gone to a diamond mine, a jewlry store, or hell even a pawn shop.
jt92, I fully realize that if Buzz bombs we will be competing with SJU, DePaul, Rutgers, Seton Hall, and USF to avoid finishing last in the BEast. I posted several times to the TC haters to be careful what you wish for because it is entirely possible that it was the TC show @MU, and not the MU Program with tc coaching at the moment. I fully believe that TC worked wonders to build the program back up to a place of national interest and that will NOT automatically be self-sustaining. But Buzz hasn't coached a game here yet, has so far handled a difficult situation with class, and seems to be achieving a level of continuity with recruits and returnees while rapidly bringing in a potentially good replacement for players who don't want to be at MU without Crean. Once TC left, shoes were going to drop and eggs were going to break. I don't know what Buzz could have done better, other than secretly being Roy instead of Buzz Williams.
We'll know in a few years if this was a good hire. Those that are saying it was a solid hire, don't know. Those that say it wasn't a solid hire don't know. Those that say it was a gamble...are correct (because all hires are gambles to some degree). The question becomes whether the gamble pays off and we won't know that for a few years.
Hell, none of us have seen him for one second on the sideline, in the huddle, at the end of a game. We just don't know.
Until then, we wait and see, hope for the best.
Quote from: jt92 on April 18, 2008, 11:57:50 AM
You people are absolutely unreal!!! The bottom line here is that no one really knows what MU is going to get with Buzz. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you are not concerned. This doesn't mean we don't support him, but to call Katz an idiot is stupid. People are still mad at him for all of those rumors over the years about Judas which turned out to be true. The hiring of Buzz Williams is a huge risk, this doesn't mean he can't be successful...but to say there is no risk here is beyond foolish.
Katz is an idiot, but not because he tells us Buzz is a gamble.
He's an idiot because he substitutes "Buzz is a gamble" for any thoughtful analysis of the situation. Sheesh, when my wife who watches maybe five Marquette games a year and might be able to name three players heard the news she said "sounds like a risky hire." I would expect better analysis from the so-called World Wide Leader.
FWIW, I cannot recall a single post over the past two weeks that has said or implied that there is no risk here. There's plenty of risk here. Perhaps even more risk than had MU gone with someone like Lowery or Brownell. But what the other side of the debate can't or won't admit is that there's also a ton of potential here. IMO, Buzz already has shown he's a quality recruiter. If he can coach just as well, MU could be very good under his tenure for many years.
PRN, name me the players you know for a fact would have stayed and/or come to MU. I've counted, and the number could very well be six. And what exactly has Lowery done to make himself so desirable?
Quote from: ecompt on April 18, 2008, 03:58:11 PM
PRN, name me the players you know for a fact would have stayed and/or come to MU. I've counted, and the number could very well be six. And what exactly has Lowery done to make himself so desirable?
He's won with Matt Painter's players. Kinda like Mike Deane with Kevin O'Neill's players.
Actually, I like Lowery a lot and think he would have been a solid choice. But the notion that he would have been a slam dunk or significantly less risky than Buzz is silly. Up until this year, Lowery has not recruited well as a head coach and the overall play of the Salukis moved sharply in the wrong direction. I still like him and would have been happy to have him, but he by no means is a sure thing on the next level.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 18, 2008, 12:21:39 PM
We'll know in a few years if this was a good hire. Those that are saying it was a solid hire, don't know. Those that say it wasn't a solid hire don't know. Those that say it was a gamble...are correct (because all hires are gambles to some degree). The question becomes whether the gamble pays off and we won't know that for a few years.
Hell, none of us have seen him for one second on the sideline, in the huddle, at the end of a game. We just don't know.
Until then, we wait and see, hope for the best.
Your right. We really won't know for a few years but it will be very interesting to see who he hires as assistants. Its starting to look like there is the potential to hit some out of the park and if that is the case, I will be very very pleased early on in the Buzz coaching administration. Nevertheless, so far so good in my book. Kept Mbakwe which I think is huge. Kept Erik Williams who again I think is huge. The big 3 and Hayward are happy. Lets see what happens over the next week.
My problem is with Cottingham and the administration -- not with Buzz. As has been repeated ad infinitum, he may/may not turn out to be a competent coach. That's not the point.
Why should the fans be satisfied with the decision to turn over a Top-20 program to a unqualified candidate who will have to "learn on the job?" MU is not (or should not) be a program headed by a novice.
While Buzz has done an admirable job of preserving a mediocre recruiting class, the goal under Crean was to become successful enough to attract the 5-star recruits necessary to advance beyond the first/second round of the NCAAs.
How does hiring Buzz make MU more attractive to the recruits needed to advance the program? Or is what we're saying in these posts is that the fans should be satisfied with the status quo, or even something less?
Quote from: 3Mer on April 18, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
My problem is with Cottingham and the administration -- not with Buzz. As has been repeated ad infinitum, he may/may not turn out to be a competent coach. That's not the point.
Why should the fans be satisfied with the decision to turn over a Top-20 program to a unqualified candidate who will have to "learn on the job?" MU is not (or should not) be a program headed by a novice.
While Buzz has done an admirable job of preserving a mediocre recruiting class, the goal under Judas was to become successful enough to attract the 5-star recruits necessary to advance beyond the first/second round of the NCAAs.
How does hiring Buzz make MU more attractive to the recruits needed to advance the program? Or is what we're saying in these posts is that the fans should be satisfied with the status quo, or even something less?
Well stated and those were my concerns. I'm not anti-Buzz, just surprised by the hire considering where we were as a program. There are risky hires and their are risky hires. At this point it doesn't matter as it what it is (sorry for the cliche), just hope they got it right. We'll know in a few years. If they did, fantastic. If they didn't, hopefully it doesn't set us back too much. I was just hoping not to have to go through with so much uncertainty at this point.
who gives a f@#*$ what Andy Katz says? Oh, man! Andy Katz said this was a gamble!! Oh my God!!
hey, Buzz is still undefeated as MU's head coach! I guess we have to wait for the season before we get too anxious. Sure, I can grouse (and I will) about his recruits or assistants or even his hiring, but until I see the troika of Texans play, until I watch him coach against a tough team, until Tony Bennett says he wanted to come here but wasn't contacted, I don't know.
I am missing the "Gamble" part here.
Are we risking no more 1st round departures in the NCAA tourney?
Risking our ability to recruit quality big men?
I will roll these dice.
Quote from: Bling on April 18, 2008, 05:11:34 PM
who gives a f@#*$ what Andy Katz says? Oh, man! Andy Katz said this was a gamble!! Oh my God!!
At least ESPN addressed it...we must be moving so far under the rader that Fox Sports forgot to mention our new coach...
http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/8048618/Running-down-all-the-coaching-moves?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=99
Of course everything is a gamble----but we're trying to gauge here is the degree of risk involved in hiring Buzz. Have to have some questions answered:
Will Buzz be able to recruit for himself as HC without having established a track record as he did for other HCs?
Buzz's UNO team gave up an obscene 76 ppg-----with a team that the preseason mags said should be a contender to win the Sun Belt title. Finished 9-9 in conference-----why did he underachieve?
Will only one year of college HC experience mean a lot of on the job training?
Will Buzz be able to recruit locally?
A lot of questions, Murff, and it's going to awhile to answer them. I think the queastion we have to ask ourselves today is, are we better off now than we were a month ago? Just the fact that Judas is gone pushes me to say yes. I was watching thwe TiVo of the Stanford game yesterday and that was one of the worst game-coaching jobs I've ever seen.
Quote from: 3Mer on April 18, 2008, 08:35:12 AM
Hiring Buzz was a panic move induced by Crean's immediate pursuit of the recruits he had already been paid by MU to procure. Had Cottingham been more concerned with the long-term health of the basketball program rather than the short-term goal of preserving a mediocre crop of recruits (and maybe his own job), he would have conducted a more diligent search for a qualified (i.e., experienced) coach.
All the rationalizing about Buzz's recruiting skills is simply putting lipstick on a pig. Buzz would have stayed on as an assistant (was any other school beating down the door in an attempt to hire Buzz away from MU?). Instead, Cottingham gave a ludicrous 6-year contract to an assistant coach with an incredibly thin resume.
Buzz may be a great guy personally, and I sincerely hope he turns into the next Jamie Dixon or Frank Martin, but his hiring was a blow to MU's recently restored credibility.
Once again..IRONICE 3MER
Quote from: 3Mer on April 18, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
My problem is with Cottingham and the administration -- not with Buzz. As has been repeated ad infinitum, he may/may not turn out to be a competent coach. That's not the point.
Why should the fans be satisfied with the decision to turn over a Top-20 program to a unqualified candidate who will have to "learn on the job?" MU is not (or should not) be a program headed by a novice.
While Buzz has done an admirable job of preserving a mediocre recruiting class, the goal under Crean was to become successful enough to attract the 5-star recruits necessary to advance beyond the first/second round of the NCAAs.
How does hiring Buzz make MU more attractive to the recruits needed to advance the program? Or is what we're saying in these posts is that the fans should be satisfied with the status quo, or even something less?
Ironic..once again..that you complained about Buzz's hiring/recrfuiting..etc..and we now have Wilson..the most tlalented roster probably ever at MU...too bad you contradict yourself with the current garbage you are posting about the Newbill situation...Beat it.
because, you know. end result is all that matters. you don't get to be upset about how we get highly touted recruits, because you said we probably wouldn't get highly touted recruits. thats how logic works.
Jesus Ners, give it a rest.
Digging up a post from two+ years ago to call a guy out is about as lame as it gets.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 10:24:11 AM
Jesus Ners, give it a rest.
Digging up a post from two+ years ago to call a guy out is about as lame as it gets.
Please, in this post you are supporting an alleged rapist... :D
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 05, 2009, 12:06:31 PM
According to Rosiak, his JC coach said that he gained 15-20 pounds since he got there, and thinks he needs to put on another 15-20 pounds before getting to MU. It sounds like he is motivated to get into BE shape.
Well played.
That thread is full of really bad predictions, BTW. ;)
I love the old posts because it's a reminder of message board insanity. The personal squabbles never get settled but time is kind enough to show the fanatic in most of us. I'm shocked there wasn't more Crean hatred in this thread based upon all the crap we had to hear the last two years!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 10:24:11 AM
Jesus Ners, give it a rest.
Digging up a post from two+ years ago to call a guy out is about as lame as it gets.
I think the point is that Mers didn't like Buzz two years ago because he was a nice guy who couldn't recruit or coach. Now he doesn't like him because he's all about coaching and recruiting and not a nice enough guy.
If you don't see the irony so be it. I think it's amusing and revealing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 18, 2008, 05:11:21 PM
Well stated and those were my concerns. I'm not anti-Buzz, just surprised by the hire considering where we were as a program. There are risky hires and their are risky hires. At this point it doesn't matter as it what it is (sorry for the cliche), just hope they got it right. We'll know in a few years. If they did, fantastic. If they didn't, hopefully it doesn't set us back too much. I was just hoping not to have to go through with so much uncertainty at this point.
Why do we have to constantly re-hash this. especially two + years in? Why don't we just wait and let history be the judge?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 07, 2010, 10:54:53 AM
I think the point is that Mers didn't like Buzz two years ago because he was a nice guy who couldn't recruit or coach. Now he doesn't like him because he's all about coaching and recruiting and not a nice enough guy.
If you don't see the irony so be it. I think it's amusing and revealing.
Amen...
Aren't all hires risky?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 10:24:11 AM
Jesus Ners, give it a rest.
Digging up a post from two+ years ago to call a guy out is about as lame as it gets.
Not as lame as making contradictory posts - and as Lenny's said..if you can't see the irony in 3MER's posts from 2008 to where they are today..you are choosing to be ignorant. And Sultan - when Buzz takes this program to consistent Sweet 16s and Elite 8's and occasional Final Four's - be sure to rain on the parade and continue to be the "voice of reason."
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 11:26:17 AM
Not as lame as making contradictory posts - and as Lenny's said..if you can't see the irony in 3MER's posts from 2008 to where they are today..you are choosing to be ignorant. And Sultan - when Buzz takes this program to consistent Sweet 16s and Elite 8's and occasional Final Four's - be sure to rain on the parade and continue to be the "voice of reason."
And if he doesn't should those folks that may have some doubts about Buzz come on the 'Scoop and jerk themselves off silly about being right?
Quote from: reinko on July 07, 2010, 11:29:21 AM
And if he doesn't should those folks that may have some doubts about Buzz come on the 'Scoop and jerk themselves off silly about being right?
They'd probably chafe...so I would advise against it.
Seriously Ners?
What would make you happy? The elimination of all dissent or debate?
It's one thing to disagree and let someone know that you think they are wrong, but why are you always trying to get people to leave or be removed from the site?
There are some people that don't care for Buzz and some that aren't sold yet. Does that mean they forfeit their right to call themselves MU fans? What makes you the defender of Marquette fandom?
If you don't want to hear differing opinions on our head coach then go start your own site with your own rules, but don't tell people here that they should get lost or be banned because their opinion of our coach is different than yours.
2010: The summer of the Gold Scare.
Quote from: MUScoop on October 26, 2006, 08:21:12 AM
Welcome to all! I highly recommend registering for an account, because soon we'll have some Fish Fry coverage (pictures/maybe videos) that you'll only be able to view as a registered member.
Where are our Fish Fry pictures? Clearly MUScoop was wrong about the prediction about the coverage of any Fish Fry. Four years and nothing.
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 11:26:17 AM
Not as lame as making contradictory posts - and as Lenny's said..if you can't see the irony in 3MER's posts from 2008 to where they are today..you are choosing to be ignorant. And Sultan - when Buzz takes this program to consistent Sweet 16s and Elite 8's and occasional Final Four's - be sure to rain on the parade and continue to be the "voice of reason."
I guess I don't see how the posts are contradictory. Wrong? Yes.
3MER seemed to think that Buzz wouldn't be able to recruit because he was not well known, top tier coach. Buzz has proved him wrong in a short period of time. Bad prediction.
Now 3MER is upset at HOW Buzz is recruiting, not that he is recruiting well.
The only way 3MER's posts could be categorized as "contradictory" is if recruiting high level talent and not revoking scholarship offers of signed players are somehow mutually exclusive.
Dissent is not an option.
(http://johnfenzel.typepad.com/john_fenzels_blog/images/2007/03/14/the3monkeys.jpg)
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 11:26:17 AM
Not as lame as making contradictory posts - and as Lenny's said..if you can't see the irony in 3MER's posts from 2008 to where they are today..you are choosing to be ignorant. And Sultan - when Buzz takes this program to consistent Sweet 16s and Elite 8's and occasional Final Four's - be sure to rain on the parade and continue to be the "voice of reason."
If he manages to do that, and does so in a manner that makes me proud as an alum, than my voice of reason will be a very happy one.
However, dredging up the posts of two years ago, no matter what point you are trying to make, is lame. As is your constant, defend Buzz at all costs mentality.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 12:35:04 PM
However, dredging up the posts of two years ago, no matter what point you are trying to make, is lame. As is your constant, defend Buzz at all costs mentality.
It's not enough for Ners to defend Buzz at all costs. I could deal with that, but Ners feels the need to attack anybody that questions Buzz. He paints them as having an anti Buzz/MU agenda and actually tries to eliminate them from the board through harrassment or calling for their banishment.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 12:35:04 PM
However, dredging up the posts of two years ago, no matter what point you are trying to make, is lame. As is your constant, defend Buzz at all costs mentality.
Not necessarily something I would take the time to do, but I guess I don't see why. Using someone's own words to make a point, what's wrong with that?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 12:49:04 PM
Not necessarily something I would take the time to do, but I guess I don't see why. Using someone's own words to make a point, what's wrong with that?
Because people make all sorts of lame predictions and observations given what they know at the time. Playing Monday Morning Quarterback is easy for anyone to do. But do people own up to their own mistakes? Do they point out when other's predictions were accurate?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 01:05:12 PM
Because people make all sorts of lame predictions and observations given what they know at the time. Playing Monday Morning Quarterback is easy for anyone to do. But do people own up to their own mistakes? Do they point out when other's predictions were accurate?
Well if anyone predicted MU's season accurately last year, it was because they were trying to set Buzz up for failure.
Quote from: MUSF on July 07, 2010, 11:34:05 AM
Seriously Ners?
What would make you happy? The elimination of all dissent or debate?
It's one thing to disagree and let someone know that you think they are wrong, but why are you always trying to get people to leave or be removed from the site?
There are some people that don't care for Buzz and some that aren't sold yet. Does that mean they forfeit their right to call themselves MU fans? What makes you the defender of Marquette fandom?
If you don't want to hear differing opinions on our head coach then go start your own site with your own rules, but don't tell people here that they should get lost or be banned because their opinion of our coach is different than yours.
Ok - thanks for the good idea..but what would make me happy is for people to 1) Not make contradictory posts such as 3EMR - did. Have an opinion..stick to it..and don't want it this way one day, and then another way the next. 2) Let's not cruicify our current coach who is well on his way to returning us to greatness.
And..if you aren't sold on Buzz yet..and don't care for Buzz..be sure not to celebrate in the greatness that is about to happen within this program. Furthermore, continue to be self-righteous and judgemental about situations that you have NO concrete information over as to how things transpire withn the recruitment of MU players.
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:05:51 PM
Ok - thanks for the good idea..but what would make me happy is for people to 1) Not make contradictory posts such as 3EMR - did. Have an opinion..stick to it..and don't want it this way one day, and then another way the next. 2) Let's not cruicify our current coach who is well on his way to returning us to greatness.
And..if you aren't sold on Buzz yet..and don't care for Buzz..be sure not to celebrate in the greatness that is about to happen within this program. Furthermore, continue to be self-righteous and judgemental about situations that you have NO concrete information over as to how things transpire withn the recruitment of MU players.
How long did it take you to master typing from your knees?
QuoteAnd..if you aren't sold on Buzz yet..and don't care for Buzz..be sure not to celebrate in the greatness that is about to happen within this program.
I couldn't have more perfectly encapsulated why so many of us are preposterously frustrated by your posts if I had tried.
Quote from: reinko on July 07, 2010, 11:29:21 AM
come on the 'Scoop and jerk themselves off silly
Oh sweet baby jesus, lol
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:05:51 PM
And..if you aren't sold on Buzz yet..and don't care for Buzz..be sure not to celebrate in the greatness that is about to happen within this program.
So is it your opinion that those who weren't sold on Al after he went 22-30 after his first two years, shouldn't have been allowed to celebrate in 1977?
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 07, 2010, 02:10:25 PM
I couldn't have more perfectly encapsulated why so many of us are preposterously frustrated by your posts if I had tried.
And I couldn't round up a bigger bunch of idiots who still have reservations as to if Buzz is a good coach/recruiter/ambassodor of the program. If it isn't clear to you at this point, you are an idiot. Period. Why this is preposterously frustrating, I don't know??
It's like some of you have continued to try to take this wait and see approach..and the evidence that continues to come in is Buzz is landing top-tier talent, with no off the court incidents, and you are just grasping for straws to try to support your wait and see approach...when all real, tangible evidence..points to the fact we are going to have GREAT teams over the next 4 years..
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:05:51 PM
Ok - thanks for the good idea..but what would make me happy is for people to 1) Not make contradictory posts such as 3EMR - did. Have an opinion..stick to it..and don't want it this way one day, and then another way the next. 2) Let's not cruicify our current coach who is well on his way to returning us to greatness.
And..if you aren't sold on Buzz yet..and don't care for Buzz..be sure not to celebrate in the greatness that is about to happen within this program. Furthermore, continue to be self-righteous and judgemental about situations that you have NO concrete information over as to how things transpire withn the recruitment of MU players.
1. As I mentioned in another post, I'm not sure that 3MER was really contradicting himself in this case. They seem to be seperate issues that you are trying to connect.
3MER thought Buzz wasn't a good hire and he would lose high level recruits. He was wrong. Now, he is saying that Buzz shouldn't have revoked Newbill's offer because a better player was available. You seem to think that these two points contradict each other. Are you implying that the only way for Buzz to get the high level recruits that 3MER expected is to be willing to revoke scholarship offers when better players become available?
2. I have no problem with you defending Buzz or calling people out when you think they are crucifying Buzz or being self-righteous. In fact, I did the same thing to 3MER in another post. My problem is with you feeling the need to take it a step further and call for people to be banned or telling them to "beat it."
3. I also don't follow your logic that not being sold on Buzz yet somehow excludes you from being an MU fan. This makes no sense. I may not be willing to say that Buzz is a great coach yet but I can still celebrate his and MU's accomplishments, and hopefully in a few years I will be calling Buzz a great coach. Did all of the Crean haters not celebrate the Final Four? Are all of the people who hate Crean now excluded from rooting for Dwyane Wade or remembering 2002-2003 fondly?
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
It's like some of you have continued to try to take this wait and see approach..and the evidence that continues to come in is Buzz is landing top-tier talent, with no off the court incidents, and you are just grasping for straws to try to support your wait and see approach...when all real, tangible evidence..points to the fact we are going to have GREAT teams over the next 4 years..
Because recruiting top-tier talent with no off court incidents isn't the end-game. That top-tier talent has to produce on the basketball court. Until he can show that he can win with that talent, I am still in wait and see mode. Believe me, I like what I see so far and I feel very positive about the future, but I can't declare him the next great coach until he takes his talent and wins with it.
sorry. being a Marquette hating idiot is just a preposterously frustrating existence, i guess.
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:05:51 PM
Ok - thanks for the good idea..but what would make me happy is for people to 1) Not make contradictory posts such as 3EMR - did. Have an opinion..stick to it..and don't want it this way one day, and then another way the next.
People's opinions can change in two years you know...once additional information comes to light.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 02:19:27 PM
So is it your opinion that those who weren't sold on Al after he went 22-30 after his first two years, shouldn't have been allowed to celebrate in 1977?
Marquette was 5-21 the year before Al arrived. 8-18 his first year and 14-12 his second with George Thompson set to lead them the following year. I'd say yeah.
You have to wait until the program becomes Buzz's in which case he has seniors that play for him for 4 years and graduate with no issues. Thats my opinion about Buzz and the MU program.
How would your opinion differ if say next season or the season after that, or both seasons, we miss the dance and are not in the top 5 or 6 teams in the Big East. Who do people point the finger at, I'm not saying I'm just saying.
Question for the anti-wait and see crowd.
Does it work both ways? If Buzz had 2 mediocre seasons would you be calling for him to be fired, or would you be willing to let him get 4-5 years to prove what he could do with his own recruits?
Quote from: MUSF on July 07, 2010, 12:43:26 PM
It's not enough for Ners to defend Buzz at all costs. I could deal with that, but Ners feels the need to attack anybody that questions Buzz. He paints them as having an anti Buzz/MU agenda and actually tries to eliminate them from the board through harrassment or calling for their banishment.
Get over it MUSF - you wrote: "I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action."
And I wrote personally I'd call for some corrective action and your head/account on here is if you continued to perpetuate the "Buzz is a bad guy," type of posts you posted for 2 days after the Newbill situation. Furthermore, we had another start a topic: "Is this a fireable offense?" It got to the point of ridiculous on this board to where someone finall got it right in sarcasm and started the" Should Buzz Williams be sent to prison thread?"
Lstly, what if Buzz left MU in the next month..tok another job somewhere else..due to getting annoyed with all of the self righteousness of some of the MU fanbase..that want to hold him to the standard of Jesus Christ? Just woke up one day and said..you know what..I don't need this sh$t? Considering how many coahces turned us down when Crean left - Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis, Sean Miller, etc....who do you think MU is going to land?? I think some MU fans have this illusionary view of where our program is in the national landscape.we aren't a destination job..and the last hiring process was evidence of that....final point is..appreciate what we have..and stop with the nit picking of our current head coach. We are LUCKY to have him. Period. Look at where IU is with Tom Crean..it is amazing to look at the talent disparity between MU and IU - which is considered much more of a destination program..than MU ever was/likely ever will be.
Quote from: damuts222 on July 07, 2010, 02:31:35 PM
You have to wait until the program becomes Buzz's in which case he has seniors that play for him for 4 years and graduate with no issues. Thats my opinion about Buzz and the MU program.
How would your opinion differ if say next season or the season after that, or both seasons, we miss the dance and are not in the top 5 or 6 teams in the Big East. Who do people point the finger at, I'm not saying I'm just saying.
+1
You beat me to it.
Why not everyone take second, breathe, click this link and laugh at the headline. :D
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6622I420100703
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:34:19 PM
Get over it MUSF - you wrote: "I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action."
And I wrote personally I'd call for some corrective action and your head/account on here is if you continued to perpetuate the "Buzz is a bad guy," type of posts you posted for 2 days after the Newbill situation. Furthermore, we had another start a topic: "Is this a fireable offense?" It got to the point of ridiculous on this board to where someone finall got it right in sarcasm and started the" Should Buzz Williams be sent to prison thread?"
Wow. In what crazy world does asking MU and/or Buzz to take corrective action equal "Buzz is a bad guy?" I would hate to be your boss and have to ask you to improve on some aspect of your job. I imagine your response would be, "Why do you hate me? Stop crucifying me or I'll ask the company to fire you!"
I challenge you to find any post where I specifically stated or even suggested that "Buzz is a bad guy." Why don't you take a look at the posts where I called 3MER out for implying that Buzz doesn't live up to Jesuit values. Of course doing that might shatter this illusionary black and white world you have created.
Quote from: MUSF on July 07, 2010, 02:43:21 PM
Wow. In what crazy world does asking MU and/or Buzz to take corrective action equal "Buzz is a bad guy?" I would hate to be your boss and have to ask you to improve on some aspect of your job. I imagine your response would be, "Why do you hate me? Stop crucifying me or I'll ask the company to fire you!"
I challenge you to find any post where I specifically stated or even suggested that "Buzz is a bad guy." Why don't you take a look at the posts where I called 3MER out for implying that Buzz doesn't live up to Jesuit values. Of course doing that might shatter this illusionary black and white world you have created.
Did you specifically say "Buzz is a bad guy?" NO. Did you post approximately 30 replies to the Newbill threads insuiniating as much? Yes. Or at very least..did you not have 30 posts on the Newbill situation belaboring your point that you disagreed with what happened, etc..? You may note that I too don't like what happened...but..I am not going to take the Newbill camp 100% as truthful, and the IWB account as 100% false..and discuss that our coach need to be reprimanded or the university take some corrective action..that to me is an overreaction..particularily when NO ONE other than Buzz/Monarch and DJ Newbill and his parents know exactly what happened...
I am glad that you eventually relented and called out 3EM'er for going off the deep end with saying Buzz doesn't live up to Jesuit values..and as already mentioned..we had soem here asking if this was a fireable offense. Point being..I defend Buzz when the overreaction crowd goes WAY off the deep end here...
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
And I couldn't round up a bigger bunch of idiots who still have reservations as to if Buzz is a good coach/recruiter/ambassodor of the program. If it isn't clear to you at this point, you are an idiot. Period. Why this is preposterously frustrating, I don't know??
It's like some of you have continued to try to take this wait and see approach..and the evidence that continues to come in is Buzz is landing top-tier talent, with no off the court incidents, and you are just grasping for straws to try to support your wait and see approach...when all real, tangible evidence..points to the fact we are going to have GREAT teams over the next 4 years..
There's a difference between recognizing if he is a good coach, good ambassador, and making him a deity (here's an example, I liked very much the results that Crean delivered but didn't hesitate to call him a prick, an ego centric person, etc. Or attacking him for having Jason Rab on his staff, etc). Some people dare to question what tea the guy is drinking and you're branded a Maoist.
I'll stay consistent as I have from the very first day of his hiring....history will judge him. Some of you will judge him now, and that's fine. I'll let history be the ultimate judge. Way too many examples of coaches starting out on fire and crashing within 5 years, it's too early to tell. History will be the judge. So far, so good...at least when he's not booting players off the team before they get a chance to prove themselves.
Quote from: reinko on July 07, 2010, 02:38:48 PM
Why not everyone take second, breathe, click this link and laugh at the headline. :D
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6622I420100703
OK, I laughed my butt off. You know the copy writers do this stuff on purpose, they have to.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 07, 2010, 04:32:10 PM
OK, I laughed my butt off. You know the copy writers do this stuff on purpose, they have to.
That was quite hilarious..and definitely intentional..
Quote from: MUSF on July 07, 2010, 02:33:16 PM
Question for the anti-wait and see crowd.
Does it work both ways? If Buzz had 2 mediocre seasons would you be calling for him to be fired, or would you be willing to let him get 4-5 years to prove what he could do with his own recruits?
If Buzz would have had a mediocre season with the mediocre team he was left with last year I'd say wait and see.
If Buzz hadn't produced 4 talented recruiting classes in 2 years I'd say wait and see.
I've seen him coach more than 70 games. I've seen the way he relates to and treats people.
I don't need to see a movie 175 times (5 years worth of games) to review it. If Buzz was treading water like TC was after 2 years I'd be cautiously optimistic and say wait and see. He's hit it out of the park so I think I've seen enough.
Quote from: T-Bone on July 07, 2010, 11:41:27 AM
Where are our Fish Fry pictures? Clearly MUScoop was wrong about the prediction about the coverage of any Fish Fry. Four years and nothing.
I can't believe I'm replying to this, but here's your pictures...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43.0
Not sure how you missed topic #43... :)