MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: jayhawker1 on April 11, 2008, 06:25:13 PM
-
As a fairly new MU fan, it seems to me that the Big East is not good for Marquette. It didn't help them in the coach search. A lot of discussion on this board expressed surprise that Miller wasn't interested in leaving Xavier for MU, because the A10 is a mid-major conference. On the other hand, Xavier can dominate the A10, while Marquette has never won the Big East even with some very good teams. I think a consistently great program requires a team to win their conference at least once every four years if not more often.
This is just a pipe dream, but I think it would be great if some of the Catholic schools in the Big East would break off and form the core of a new, all Catholic conference. For example, Marquette, Notre Dame, and DePaul would join with Xavier, Creighton, SLU, Dayton and Loyola. I'm leaving out Villanova, St. Johns, and Georgetown because geography also is important for rivalries and media coverage. Several cities would be naturals for post season tournaments and media coverage, with significant alumni bases for the schools. It wouldn't be as strong as the Big East, but the basketball would be very competitive, and the rivalries would be great. Most importantly, Marquette would be competing for championships rather than simply an upper division finish.
-
Can I have the minute back of my life I just wasted reading this crap? unnatural carnal knowledge Loyola. unnatural carnal knowledge Creighton. unnatural carnal knowledge SLU.
-
I disagree quite a bit. Not to mention that the Big East has always been known as a de-facto Catholic conference. Why would we move to a worse Catholic conference...
-
jayhawker, that's a tough response you just recieved. Welcome to the board. Some posters never heard of foreplay.
I think you make a valid point about the toughness of the Big East. Unless you can recruit great players year in and year out, it is hard to stay in the top half and it is a meat grinder of a schedule. If you fall into the lower half, it can be very tough to win enough games to get tourney consideration. Hell, a winning conference record and 20+ wins iin the BE won't always get you in the tourney.
I'm sure that the diffculty in winning in the BE does scare off some coaching candidates. However, I'd like to see MU stay and build the program to the point where we cna continue the success we have had and make a deeper tourney. Hopefully, we've got the right guy in place.
-
Of these "crap" schools, didn't the coaches at Dayton, SLU and Xavier all reject the Marquette job? Do you think that the Big East had something to do with Crean leaving and something to do with the hiring of an assistant coach?
-
Of these "crap" schools, didn't the coaches at Dayton, SLU and Xavier all reject the Marquette job? Do you think that the Big East had something to do with Crean leaving and something to do with the hiring of an assistant coach?
X yes. But Gregory and Rick no.
-
As a fairly new MU fan, it seems to me that the Big East is not good for Marquette. It didn't help them in the coach search. A lot of discussion on this board expressed surprise that Miller wasn't interested in leaving Xavier for MU, because the A10 is a mid-major conference. On the other hand, Xavier can dominate the A10, while Marquette has never won the Big East even with some very good teams. I think a consistently great program requires a team to win their conference at least once every four years if not more often.
This is just a pipe dream, but I think it would be great if some of the Catholic schools in the Big East would break off and form the core of a new, all Catholic conference. For example, Marquette, Notre Dame, and DePaul would join with Xavier, Creighton, SLU, Dayton and Loyola. I'm leaving out Villanova, St. Johns, and Georgetown because geography also is important for rivalries and media coverage. Several cities would be naturals for post season tournaments and media coverage, with significant alumni bases for the schools. It wouldn't be as strong as the Big East, but the basketball would be very competitive, and the rivalries would be great. Most importantly, Marquette would be competing for championships rather than simply an upper division finish.
I can tell you're a new Marquette fan. You don't know of the days they spent in CUSA...
As far as the coaching search, what makes a good team: recruiting. From what I hear, Buzz Williams is one of the best recruiters in the country. Sounds good to me. Tom Crean was a good recruiter and not a very good coach. If Buzz is a great recruiter and not a very good coach, it's still an upgrade. Yes, Buzz was not the sexy name everyone was hoping for, but I think you made my point in your post: The Big East is a very big conference. With a big conference comes big expectations. Crean was in a great situation because he took us from a not-so-well-known team to the Big East national spotlight. he had immunity from his 1 tourney win since 2003 and D-Wade. Any other coach in the Big East does that and he's gone... Coaches with success in mid-major conferences may like to stay there. Why not- they're in similar situations Crean was in at MU (and Crean declined other offers to go to Kansas, Kentucky, etc). These coaches are doing the same thing Crean did at MU. He didn't want to leave MU because he had it made- he took a team and made them into something. They're doing the same thing, so why leave that great situation for a situation where you're expected to take one step further, to not turn the program around, but to take it to the next level of winning. Some coaches just know that's not a great situation to be in- sign a 5-6 year contract and not win a tourney game (or just lose in round 2) in 3 years and you're probably gone.
Now Buzz is a great recruiter, and I'm excited to see what he can do. I don't think it's a homerun hire, but it's not a real great year to hire coaches it seems. I think the AD at MU had a knee-jerk reaction and paniced to sign a coach as to not lose his 2 best guards and 2 best recruits. It worked, it brought some stability to the program for next year at least ,and then we'll see what Buzz can do...
But to answer your question, the Big East is perfect for MU. They are in the upper half of the best conference in basketball. They will get respect year in and year out. They will make a hell of a lot more money commercially (sales, TV, non-conference games, etc) in the Big East than they would in a crappy conference such as the one you've dreamed up.
You have to think outside of the box and realize that basketball is more than just college basketball, it's a business and it's a way for the school to make money, bring in donations, and get national recognition for applicants wanting to come. Moving out of the Big East would be the biggest mistake MU could ever make, well, next to not changing the name to Warriors.
WARRIORS FOREVER!
-
Xavier can dominate the A10, while Marquette has never won the Big East even with some very good teams.
welcome to the board. i have two things to say: 1) MU has only been in the Big East for 3 seasons. Yes they have had some good teams, but give them some time. 2) This builds off point one- maybe MU hasn't won the BE b/c its the BE and not the A10!!! The A10 is a very respectable conference for mid-majors, but its apples and oranges comparing MU and the BE with Xavier and the A10. There's simply isn't enough competition for Xavier right now in the A10, and probably never will be if they continue on the trajectory they are on.
-
I'll keep it simple. The Big East is one of the best things that ever happened to Marquette.
-
Xavier can dominate the A10, while Marquette has never won the Big East even with some very good teams.
welcome to the board. i have two things to say: 1) MU has only been in the Big East for 3 seasons. Yes they have had some good teams, but give them some time. 2) This builds off point one- maybe MU hasn't won the BE b/c its the BE and not the A10!!! The A10 is a very respectable conference for mid-majors, but its apples and oranges comparing MU and the BE with Xavier and the A10. There's simply isn't enough competition for Xavier right now in the A10, and probably never will be if they continue on the trajectory they are on.
EXACTLY! Why leave a job where you're going to have security for the next 6 years for a much tougher job that you may not keep past 3...
-
"Crean declined other offers to go to Kansas..."
That never happened. When Williams left, Self was number one on the list.
-
In reference to Tom Crean leaving his "cushy job" at MU... I think there's a lot behind the scenes that we didn't see. Some possibilities:
- The primary supporters to MU basketball may have had a falling out with Crean, maybe MU didn't increase their offer because no one wanted to donate more, maybe the contributors to the team felt Crean wasn't producing well enough for 1.5 mil a year
- Maybe Crean realized that he wouldn't be able to make it much longer (maybe 2 more years max) with early exits in the tourney with this 3 guard system. Maybe he realized his time was up, and he couldn't be the coach to take MU over the top, so he took a job in IU similar to how MU was when he came- to rebuild them and gain that cushy job security again
I don't know what it could be, but I doubt the Big East being wrong for MU had anything to do with him leaving. And I don't think we're as bad as everyone thinks (me included) with Buzz Williams... I think he'll bring in solid recruits and with that will come wins regardless of Xs and Os
-
"Crean declined other offers to go to Kansas..."
That never happened. When Williams left, Self was number one on the list.
They showed interest in him and he didn't interview. He didn't want to leave.
The point I was trying to make is that there were a LOT of opportunities for Crean to jump ship to a more "well known" school and he didn't. He had job security here for another 3-5 years at least...
-
The longer Marquette and DePaul are in the Big East more midwest players will start thinking of playing in the Big East. I am not sure but I think Mu won conference USA once and great Midwest once and they were in those conferences longer than 3 years.
-
The Big East is one of the only good things MU has done
-
I'll keep it simple. The Big East is one of the best things that ever happened to Marquette.
Ding. Ding. Ding.
MU is solid for the Big East.
Our tradition is as rich as the top teams in the Big East.
Our team will always be competitive.
-
Of these "crap" schools, didn't the coaches at Dayton, SLU and Xavier all reject the Marquette job? Do you think that the Big East had something to do with Crean leaving and something to do with the hiring of an assistant coach?
I'm pretty sure that Gregory/Dayton and Majerus/SLU both said they weren't interested in the MU job in response to inquiries from the media, which was baseless speculation. MU wasn't interested in either of those guys.
I'm guessing that Crean concluded he had a better chance of restoring Indiana to its previous glory and winning the average-at best Big Ten than he had of restoring MU to its previous glory, which is what it will take to win the Big East. And it appears we settled for an assistant coach because no experienced, already successful head coach wanted the challenge of trying to advance MU to the next level in the brutal BE conference. Also, Indiana offered him more money...probably not a small factor.
-
Of these "crap" schools, didn't the coaches at Dayton, SLU and Xavier all reject the Marquette job? Do you think that the Big East had something to do with Crean leaving and something to do with the hiring of an assistant coach?
I'm pretty sure that Gregory/Dayton and Majerus/SLU both said they weren't interested in the MU job in response to inquiries from the media, which was baseless speculation. MU wasn't interested in either of those guys.
I'm guessing that Crean concluded he had a better chance of restoring Indiana to its previous glory and winning the average-at best Big Ten than he had of restoring MU to its previous glory, which is what it will take to win the Big East. And it appears we settled for an assistant coach because no experienced, already successful head coach wanted the challenge of trying to advance MU to the next level in the brutal BE conference.
If that's true, then that's why those coaches will always be mediocre.
The best coaches in the country are in the Big East. *pauses when Buzz comes to mind*
-
I agree - the BE is the best thing that could happen to MU. C-USA just never seemed to take off, even with some pretty good teams (L'ville, Cincy, Memphis, MU). I can't understand why Memphis stayed in CUSA.....would have been better than bringing along S. Florida. BE gives MU much more visibility and credibility with the players. Unfortunately - not so much with attracting a quality head coach.
-
TV money! EOS
-
already successful head coach wanted the challenge of trying to advance MU to the next level in the brutal BE conference.
If that's true, then that's why those coaches will always be mediocre.
[/quote]
I don't hear anyone calling Few, Miller or Calipari "mediocre."
***The best coaches in the country are in the Big East.
That largely applies to the coaches who were with their teams before expansion. and not to those hired since.
I don't think you can say that about anyone who's made a coaching change since the expansion--with the possible exception of Huggins-- and he was a WVU alum.
The attraction of coaching in "the best conference in the country" has attracted guys like Jerry Wainwright, Mick Cronin, Fred Hill, Stan Heath, and Bobby Gonzalez.
ANd putting aside MU's choice of Buzz Williams, even if MU had hired Brad Brownell or Bob McKillop, they're still nowhere close to peer level with the legacy Big East coaches.
The real question will be what happens when someone like Boeheim or Calhoun retires. Will those programs be able to attract Sean Miller or Mark Few? Will they get someone with the pedigree of a Bruce Pearl or Tom Crean or Bill Self? ]
-
Syracuse / Boeheim have already announced that Boeheim's long time assistant - ??? - will take his place whenever he steps down. And Calhoun has stated that he wants one of his assistants - on this staff- or elsewhere - to follow him.
-
I think the BEAST is a tremendous thing for MU. That said, there are some drawbacks.
First, the negatives. Obviously the competition is fierce and a good team can suffer because of it, see Syracuse and Nova this year. Villanova almost missed the tournament but proved they were a solid team in the tourney. We have been in the top third of the conference the last few years but are only one or two players away from the bottom third. This makes a coaches job difficult and stressful. We are also at a disadvantage for recruiting compared to some of the traditional Big East teams due to geography. It has been said on this board before that we are a Big East school in Big Ten country. The kids in our region didn't grow up watching GTown battle Syracuse and they don't dream about playing in Madison Square Garden in March.
I personally think the positives outweigh the negatives. The geography issue can be overcome by a good and creative recruiter and the competition issue still doesn't outweigh the prestige/exposure of being in the Big East. The Xaviers, Memphis', and Gonzagas of the world are the exception to the rule in college BBall. Being the dominant team in a weaker conference is a better situation than a middle of the road team in a power conference but middle of the road in a weaker conference is significantly worse than being a middle of the road team in a conference like the Big East. CUSA was great for Cincy but not so great for everybody else. Hell, a couple of bad years and those elite teams could fall off of a cliff into obscurity. Marquette on the other hand will always remain relevant due to the exposure of the Big East. They will be on recruits TVs every year and always have the opportunity to make a big splash against a great team. The Big East will consistently get us more talented recruits than CUSA or the A-10 would. In the long run, I would rather be DePaul than Davidson, Western Kentucky, Dayton, or Southern Illinois.
-
Who is this pud?
-
Are people still replying to the ridiculous thread?
Is the United States good for the state of Kansas?
-
Maybe we could join the Horizon league and run the table like Memphis, then we could plany UWGB and UWM twice a year and play in the Cell
-
To answer your questions: no and no.
-
I agree - the BE is the best thing that could happen to MU. C-USA just never seemed to take off, even with some pretty good teams (L'ville, Cincy, Memphis, MU). I can't understand why Memphis stayed in CUSA.....would have been better than bringing along S. Florida. BE gives MU much more visibility and credibility with the players. Unfortunately - not so much with attracting a quality head coach.
Memphis never had a chance to go to the BE. The BE selected South Florida for football potential, which has been playing out the past couple of years.
-
"who is this pud..."
Someone whose kids go to MU, started following the basketball program, contribute financially to the school beyond tuition. Looked like I ticked some people off and didn't mean to. I didn't realize there was so much loyalty to the Big East after three years. The points about finances and being a part of a conference with high exposure are good ones. MU's a great school with great basketball tradition and I hope it continues.
-
Jayhawker, I know being a new MU fan doens't make you privy to all the history MArquette has to offer. I myself went to Marquette out of ACC country and see things (or used to) in the same light that you once did. The Big East is Large hand has an already established fan base that make it better then an upstart conference. MU has a large endowment and a good academic reputaiton like many of ther other BIg east schools. It would not make sense for themt o leave to create a new conference when that conference can't even get an Automatic bid for the first few year. They would also be taking money out of their pockets by no longer staying tied in with lucrative TV markets in Washignton DC Philadelphia and NEw York. However if in the future, if the 8 Big east Football schools decide that they no longer want to share with the basketball only schools the only Logical seperation of the conference would more likely end up in this way THe League would cut itself in Half with the football schools lookign to add 4 more teams (Most Likely Candidates listed below To get the minimum teams for a conference Championship game and 2 being added to the Basketball schools so they can play a10 team round robin (similar to MVC)
Big East
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
South Florida
Louisville
Cincinnati
Syracuse
Rutgers
UConn
East Carolina (New)
UCF (New)
Army (Football Only)
Navy (Football Only)
"Catholic" Conference
Marquette
DePaul
Notre Dame (Except Football)
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Xavier (New)
Dayton (New)
Of course the footballs choosl woudl pray that Notre Dame adopts the conference and joins it instead but that seems to be higly Unlikely. At least this is how one man sees it. I think some of the football Schools are a stretch.
-
I like being able to watch mu games on tv, i guess new fans don't know what it was like when they were never on.
-
It's kind of like the question, "Would you rather win the NIT or go to the NCAA tourney and lose in the first round?" My answer is always that I'd rather play with the big boys, win or lose. I'd rather be in the Big East playing against the best competition that settling for easier competition.
-
Big East is one of the top 3 conferences in the countries with the ACC and SEC. Big 10, Pac10 and Big 12 will argue with that, but year to year produces top team. There is no reason you would want to move out of this conference with the exposure it receives. Conference foes help boost your SOS - even if you play the likes of Prairie View A&M, Savannah State and Coppin State in your Non-Conference. Will send 6-8 teams to the tourney every year. Huge exposure on TV - which is what the top recruits are looking for. To leave this conference would be a travesty. You have to be in a conference like this in order to legitimize your program - assuming you can be competitive. If your gonna run with the big dogs, you've gotta pee in the big trees.
-
Of these "crap" schools, didn't the coaches at Dayton, SLU and Xavier all reject the Marquette job? Do you think that the Big East had something to do with Crean leaving and something to do with the hiring of an assistant coach?
I'm pretty sure that Gregory/Dayton and Majerus/SLU both said they weren't interested in the MU job in response to inquiries from the media, which was baseless speculation. MU wasn't interested in either of those guys.
I'm guessing that Crean concluded he had a better chance of restoring Indiana to its previous glory and winning the average-at best Big Ten than he had of restoring MU to its previous glory, which is what it will take to win the Big East. And it appears we settled for an assistant coach because no experienced, already successful head coach wanted the challenge of trying to advance MU to the next level in the brutal BE conference.
If that's true, then that's why those coaches will always be mediocre.
The best coaches in the country are in the Big East. *pauses when Buzz comes to mind*
In all honesty I don't think the Big East really wanted Memphis as much as USF. USF brought the BE into Florida and they have a much better football program which is something the conference was in desperate need of when they realigned.
-
It's not just the TV money, but by playing a great conference schedule, we're selling waaaaaaayy more tickets during the conference season.