http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stories/041108aad.html
so do i.
Is it even a debatable point that they panicked? The decision seems worse every day.
I agree with PRN, while we all knwo this was a rushed panic acall on the part of the BOT, its time we do our best Jesuit impressiona nd pr\ay it works out in the end. BEsides who gives a crap abotu waht all these writers think. Of course they are goign to think the same thing as most of us. Do we really need them to vaildate that point. Lets move on and hope that Buzz recruits the hell out of texas.
yeah we panicked.
What we should have done was to wait a while longer, then offer the job and be turned down publicly several times so that we could be the laughingstock of the conference.
Brian Curtis must have grown up in Rhode Island.
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
yeah we panicked.
What we should have done was to wait a while longer, then offer the job and be turned down publicly several times so that we could be the laughingstock of the conference.
Looking at the roster of coaches in the BIG EAST, I'd say we're already the laughingstock of the conference.
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
yeah we panicked.
What we should have done was to wait a while longer, then offer the job and be turned down publicly several times so that we could be the laughingstock of the conference.
Brian Curtis must have grown up in Rhode Island.
Brian might be thinking that Buzz would be here for quite some time, always a fall back position. Just a guess.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:34:44 PM
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
yeah we panicked.
What we should have done was to wait a while longer, then offer the job and be turned down publicly several times so that we could be the laughingstock of the conference.
Brian Curtis must have grown up in Rhode Island.
Brian might be thinking that Buzz would be here for quite some time, always a fall back position. Just a guess.
What's the proper amount of rejections before one takes the fall back position? you guys keep saying MU should have waited, should have waited, should have waited. Waited for what?
Would Marquette have been better off conducting a Providence-like search?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 11, 2008, 02:42:29 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:34:44 PM
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
yeah we panicked.
What we should have done was to wait a while longer, then offer the job and be turned down publicly several times so that we could be the laughingstock of the conference.
Brian Curtis must have grown up in Rhode Island.
Brian might be thinking that Buzz would be here for quite some time, always a fall back position. Just a guess.
What's the proper amount of rejections before one takes the fall back position? Would Marquette have been better off conducting a Providence-like search?
Depends who Providence ends up with, don't you think? Furthermore, the Providence search has been going on for WEEKS, ours went on for 3 days before a decision was made. So to answer your question, something more than 3 days and less than weeks....how about we go crazy and say 7 days. ;)
ok, 'fess up, which one of you guys read the roster of Big East Coaches to PRN?
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
Quote from: Toughmover1016 on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
There's much more historical evident that the unpopular choice is the good choice...really? There are always those that will just as some that were "slam dunk" hires that failed. But the landscape is littered with many many many 3rd, 4th, 5th choice candidates that also crashed and burned hard. So Miller and Bennett said no, big deal. Plenty of other guys were there to pursue that weren't. Brownwell not even contacted...WOW. Ford not even contacted...WOW. Etc, etc.
Look, I'm not against Buzz. I want him to do very well. I'm not against hiring Buzz either, I just think we could have given it another couple of days. I commend Providence for at least being able to bring in a Final Four coach and a top up and comer to the point of getting them on campus and considering the place. They're making the right efforts to go after an impact hire. They aren't settling, yet. If they have to settle, they can. We did that almost out of the gate, that's all.
I think there's a great chance that Buzz would've been gone, either to IU or to another head coaching spot elsewhere. I know this is not always true, but the devil you know......
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:44:20 PM
Depends who Providence ends up with, don't you think? Furthermore, the Providence search has been going on for WEEKS, ours went on for 3 days before a decision was made. So to answer your question, something more than 3 days and less than weeks....how about we go crazy and say 7 days. ;)
Just answer the questions, please.
How many rejections?
Wait for what?
By all accounts, after Miller and Bennett said no, Williams was the administration's guy. Whether their faith in him is justified remains to be seen. But if their top two guys are out, and their next guy is sitting there, why wait and for what?
Where's the upside in it? And does that outweigh the downside?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:52:31 PM
Quote from: Toughmover1016 on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
There's much more historical evident that the unpopular choice is the good choice...really? There are always those that will just as some that were "slam dunk" hires that failed. But the landscape is littered with many many many 3rd, 4th, 5th choice candidates that also crashed and burned hard. So Miller and Bennett said no, big deal. Plenty of other guys were there to pursue that weren't. Brownwell not even contacted...WOW. Ford not even contacted...WOW. Etc, etc.
Look, I'm not against Buzz. I want him to do very well. I'm not against hiring Buzz either, I just think we could have given it another couple of days. I commend Providence for at least being able to bring in a Final Four coach and a top up and comer to the point of getting them on campus and considering the place. They're making the right efforts to go after an impact hire. They aren't settling, yet. If they have to settle, they can. We did that almost out of the gate, that's all.
Warrior fan speaketh with forked tongue. You say you're not against Buzz, but you are upset the university didn't consider and/or contact everyone under the sun instead. If you think MU should have gone after all these other people instead, then you're obviously against Buzz. And who knows, maybe your instinct will be proven correct.
That said, could you at least allow for the possibility that they didn't contact Brownell (though we don't know this for fact) because they thought Buzz was a better choice? Could it be they didn't contact Ford because they thought Buzz was a better choice?
Again, whether that belief was correct is something we'll learn over the next few years, but I think it's foolish to assume Buzz was a panic choice rather than simply the choice.
Anyhow, if MU hired Travis Ford after being turned down by Bennett, Miller, Grant, etc. ... is that not settling? If they went with Brownell after their top choices said 'Thanks, but no thanks', that's not settling?
MU had a first choice. Everybody after that was "settling."
Yeah, we're the laughingstock of the conference, PRN, never finishing lower than sixth in three seasons. God help us.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:52:31 PM
Quote from: Toughmover1016 on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
There's much more historical evident that the unpopular choice is the good choice...really? There are always those that will just as some that were "slam dunk" hires that failed. But the landscape is littered with many many many 3rd, 4th, 5th choice candidates that also crashed and burned hard. So Miller and Bennett said no, big deal. Plenty of other guys were there to pursue that weren't. Brownwell not even contacted...WOW. Ford not even contacted...WOW. Etc, etc.
Look, I'm not against Buzz. I want him to do very well. I'm not against hiring Buzz either, I just think we could have given it another couple of days. I commend Providence for at least being able to bring in a Final Four coach and a top up and comer to the point of getting them on campus and considering the place. They're making the right efforts to go after an impact hire. They aren't settling, yet. If they have to settle, they can. We did that almost out of the gate, that's all.
Who says we settled? You and maybe a lot of MU fans but I don't think Cottingham, Fr. Wild and other members on the board settled. We wanted Bennett and went after Bennett. How long should we go after a coach that doesn't want to come here?
After that I truely believe Cottingham and Fr. Wild and everyone else involved in the process thought that Buzz was the best choice. Again I don't know if I agree with the decision but I do commend them for coming up with a short list and then executing what they believe is the best choice for the team and the university. Why interview others when you feel you have the right guy for the job?
Quote from: ATWizJr on April 11, 2008, 02:53:19 PM
I think there's a great chance that Buzz would've been gone, either to IU or to another head coaching spot elsewhere. I know this is not always true, but the devil you know......
If Buzz went to IU as an assistant, you don't think he would take the MU job as the head coach if it were offered?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 11, 2008, 02:54:12 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:44:20 PM
Depends who Providence ends up with, don't you think? Furthermore, the Providence search has been going on for WEEKS, ours went on for 3 days before a decision was made. So to answer your question, something more than 3 days and less than weeks....how about we go crazy and say 7 days. ;)
Just answer the questions, please.
How many rejections?
Wait for what?
By all accounts, after Miller and Bennett said no, Williams was the administration's guy. Whether their faith in him is justified remains to be seen. But if their top two guys are out, and their next guy is sitting there, why wait and for what?
Where's the upside in it? And does that outweigh the downside?
Ah yes, we now agree on something. I agree, Buzz was their #3 guy....this is where I think MU sold themselves vastly short. I don't know how a top 25 program, on a 3 year NCAA streak, paying $1.6 million a year to the previous coach has an assistant with a 14-17 head coaching record as the #3 guy.
Let's hope it works out.
As to your question, it's impossible to answer Pakuni. It all depends on who you ultimately get, does it not? If Providence ends up with say a Brownwell or Larry Brown, then they did a terrific job and the rejections are well worth it. If they end up with Cobb or someone like that, then the rejections weren't worth it. You can't just assign a number because it's all relative to you actually hire. I remember UCLA was rejected by 5 candidates in the early 1990's, they finally got their 6th choice. He won them a national title a few years later. Just as I remember a 1977 MU club coming off a national title that decided to go internal...and then a few years later...went internal again. And we spent the next two decades recovering after a slow slide which led to a more rapid slide to an absolute freefall after Majerus left.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 11, 2008, 03:04:47 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:52:31 PM
Quote from: Toughmover1016 on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
There's much more historical evident that the unpopular choice is the good choice...really? There are always those that will just as some that were "slam dunk" hires that failed. But the landscape is littered with many many many 3rd, 4th, 5th choice candidates that also crashed and burned hard. So Miller and Bennett said no, big deal. Plenty of other guys were there to pursue that weren't. Brownwell not even contacted...WOW. Ford not even contacted...WOW. Etc, etc.
Look, I'm not against Buzz. I want him to do very well. I'm not against hiring Buzz either, I just think we could have given it another couple of days. I commend Providence for at least being able to bring in a Final Four coach and a top up and comer to the point of getting them on campus and considering the place. They're making the right efforts to go after an impact hire. They aren't settling, yet. If they have to settle, they can. We did that almost out of the gate, that's all.
Warrior fan speaketh with forked tongue. You say you're not against Buzz, but you are upset the university didn't consider and/or contact everyone under the sun instead. If you think MU should have gone after all these other people instead, then you're obviously against Buzz. And who knows, maybe your instinct will be proven correct.
That said, could you at least allow for the possibility that they didn't contact Brownell (though we don't know this for fact) because they thought Buzz was a better choice? Could it be they didn't contact Ford because they thought Buzz was a better choice?
Again, whether that belief was correct is something we'll learn over the next few years, but I think it's foolish to assume Buzz was a panic choice rather than simply the choice.
Anyhow, if MU hired Travis Ford after being turned down by Bennett, Miller, Grant, etc. ... is that not settling? If they went with Brownell after their top choices said 'Thanks, but no thanks', that's not settling?
MU had a first choice. Everybody after that was "settling."
Nice try, but that's won't play. I'm not against Buzz, especially now because he's the head coach. Certainly you can understand that.
Would getting Ford be settling...yes....settling after Miller and Bennett but a potentially better hire then Williams. There's degrees of settling....I could go after Ms. California and get rejected but "settle" for Ms. Alaska but that's still better then settling for Ms. Fat USA. I'm sure, again, you can understand there are levels of settling and a pecking order of settling. I'd rather "settle" for my 5th choice if he's better then the 10th if you know what I mean, and if that means being rejected 4 times so be it.
Obviously MU valued Williams much higher on the list then I or almost every national pundit. Now, to MU's benefit, they know Williams better than I or those national pundits. We'll see if it works out, but yes I will continue to scratch my head that he was either #3 on the list or if he wasn't, how in the hell a program in MU's situation gives up after two rejections.
Thank you for your time.
Quote from: mufanatic on April 11, 2008, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 02:52:31 PM
Quote from: Toughmover1016 on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
I completely agree with Pakuni, are they supposed to sit there and sit on there hands and keep reachign out to coaches that have no desire to be reached out to. SO they didn't hire the popular choice. There are much historical evidence that sometime the unpopular choice can turn out to be a good choice. They acted quickly and decisively. The quick action shodul show how much confidence they have in Brent as a coach. While the BOT doesn't deserve all credit for MU's success as an institution the last 10 years you also can't deny that they should be given at least soem credit and that they aren't jsut a bunch of shaved apes in a room flinign poo at a board until it hits there choice.
There's much more historical evident that the unpopular choice is the good choice...really? There are always those that will just as some that were "slam dunk" hires that failed. But the landscape is littered with many many many 3rd, 4th, 5th choice candidates that also crashed and burned hard. So Miller and Bennett said no, big deal. Plenty of other guys were there to pursue that weren't. Brownwell not even contacted...WOW. Ford not even contacted...WOW. Etc, etc.
Look, I'm not against Buzz. I want him to do very well. I'm not against hiring Buzz either, I just think we could have given it another couple of days. I commend Providence for at least being able to bring in a Final Four coach and a top up and comer to the point of getting them on campus and considering the place. They're making the right efforts to go after an impact hire. They aren't settling, yet. If they have to settle, they can. We did that almost out of the gate, that's all.
Who says we settled? You and maybe a lot of MU fans but I don't think Cottingham, Fr. Wild and other members on the board settled. We wanted Bennett and went after Bennett. How long should we go after a coach that doesn't want to come here?
After that I truely believe Cottingham and Fr. Wild and everyone else involved in the process thought that Buzz was the best choice. Again I don't know if I agree with the decision but I do commend them for coming up with a short list and then executing what they believe is the best choice for the team and the university. Why interview others when you feel you have the right guy for the job?
Oh, I agree entirely....I think Cottingham and Wild absolutely don't think they settled. That, is exactly my point. Don't shoot for the stars and you aren't settling...exactly my point.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: mufanatic on April 11, 2008, 03:11:33 PM
Who says we settled? You and maybe a lot of MU fans but I don't think Cottingham, Fr. Wild and other members on the board settled. We wanted Bennett and went after Bennett. How long should we go after a coach that doesn't want to come here?
After that I truely believe Cottingham and Fr. Wild and everyone else involved in the process thought that Buzz was the best choice. Again I don't know if I agree with the decision but I do commend them for coming up with a short list and then executing what they believe is the best choice for the team and the university. Why interview others when you feel you have the right guy for the job?
Oh, I agree entirely....I think Cottingham and Wild absolutely don't think they settled. That, is exactly my point. Don't shoot for the stars and you aren't settling...exactly my point.
Though I think they might have settled for a safe choice, the market was not a favorable one for Marquette.
With that said, I give Buzz 3-5 years before MU decides on a new coach. Just got a feeling that they're always going to be monitoring who's out there.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on April 11, 2008, 07:27:26 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: mufanatic on April 11, 2008, 03:11:33 PM
Who says we settled? You and maybe a lot of MU fans but I don't think Cottingham, Fr. Wild and other members on the board settled. We wanted Bennett and went after Bennett. How long should we go after a coach that doesn't want to come here?
After that I truely believe Cottingham and Fr. Wild and everyone else involved in the process thought that Buzz was the best choice. Again I don't know if I agree with the decision but I do commend them for coming up with a short list and then executing what they believe is the best choice for the team and the university. Why interview others when you feel you have the right guy for the job?
Oh, I agree entirely....I think Cottingham and Wild absolutely don't think they settled. That, is exactly my point. Don't shoot for the stars and you aren't settling...exactly my point.
Though I think they might have settled for a safe choice, the market was not a favorable one for Marquette.
With that said, I give Buzz 3-5 years before MU decides on a new coach. Just got a feeling that they're always going to be monitoring who's out there.
I think Buzz has a two year honeymoon or less. If he falls flat next year and this team is say below .500 it is time to Ray Rhodes him out - one and done.
77, certainly the eye will be on closely and I hope like hell they were right and he just kicks ass.
I am curious, however, why do you think it as a bad market? Seems to me that basketball coaching jobs are a self created market that involves pressing the right levers and making the correct pitch.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:34:29 PM
77, certainly the eye will be on closely and I hope like hell they were right and he just kicks ass.
I am curious, however, why do you think it as a bad market? Seems to me that basketball coaching jobs are a self created market that involves pressing the right levers and making the correct pitch.
I think it's a bad market because it seemed to me that many of the top names were unwilling to budge from their young programs; lots of top conference openings were not being filled quickly (and if filled, not with their top guys in mind); the coaching "dominoes" simply were not falling for lots of teams (bad omen for MU); and the little time MU had to move and court a new coach.
I don't think that basketball coaching jobs are a "self-created" market for all teams, only the elite. MU is not there. If this was the case for MU, we would have had the ears of our top candidates while at The AL. Then and only then, whould the pressing of levers and issuing of pitches be done.
Todd R at the JS has reported in his blog that MU went after Bennett, Miller, Grant, McKillop and Hewitt--five experienced head coaches. All said no. So weren't the choices left either a small program coach (Dukiet, Deanne) or an assistant with big program experience (O'Neil, Crean)? We went with the in-house guy, which we did with Raymonds and Majerus. But with only 9 months on the job, I would say this is a different situation and other factors were at work i.e familiarity and popularity with existing players and most of the recruiting class. Raymonds and Majerus also knew the players and recruits of course, but they were "next in line," which wasn't the case with Buzz.
Quote from: WarriorHal on April 11, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
Todd R at the JS has reported in his blog that MU went after Bennett, Miller, Grant, McKillop and Hewitt--five experienced head coaches. All said no. So weren't the choices left either a small program coach (Dukiet, Deanne) or an assistant with big program experience (O'Neil, Crean)? We went with the in-house guy, which we did with Raymonds and Majerus. But with only 9 months on the job, I would say this is a different situation and other factors were at work i.e familiarity and popularity with existing players and most of the recruiting class.
Yes, I'm aware of that report....of course that same reporter said Mbakwe was transferring already and that has yet to pass (it could, but hasn't yet)....I guess I think the list of good, experienced coaches goes beyond 5, but that's just me. Buzz was always going to be there...day 3, day 5, day 7, day 9. I would have gone beyond day 3, MU chose not to.
Doesn't matter, Buzz is our guy. Best of luck, hope like hell he's the man.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:17:38 PM
As to your question, it's impossible to answer Pakuni. It all depends on who you ultimately get, does it not? If Providence ends up with say a Brownwell or Larry Brown, then they did a terrific job and the rejections are well worth it. If they end up with Cobb or someone like that, then the rejections weren't worth it. You can't just assign a number because it's all relative to you actually hire. I remember UCLA was rejected by 5 candidates in the early 1990's, they finally got their 6th choice. He won them a national title a few years later. Just as I remember a 1977 MU club coming off a national title that decided to go internal...and then a few years later...went internal again. And we spent the next two decades recovering after a slow slide which led to a more rapid slide to an absolute freefall after Majerus left.
This is where you lose me.
What makes you so certain Brownell is a better hire than Buzz? Brownell just as easily could be Tim Welsh, Part Deux ... a guy with some mid-major success who couldn't cut it at the next level. The major program landscape is littered with the corpses of guys like Brad Brownell, yet you're saying hiring him = "terrific job"?
You're judging who is and is not the better hire entirely on head-coaching experience, not results. Shouldn't you at least wait until we see who succeeds and who does not before declaring the better hire? Nine years ago, many, many, many fans on the other board were certain Iowa got the better hire than Marquette because they got Steve Alford. After all, he had head-coaching experience and mid-major success. How'd that turn out?
As for the 1977 club going internal ...
1. Nobody, internal or external, was going to duplicate Al's success at Marquette. MU caught lightning in a bottle there.
2. Had Marquette shown a little more patience with Majerus, this freefall you speak of probably never would have happened.
3. The absolute freefall after Majerus left wasn't because Hank Raymond was hired nine years earlier or Majerus was chosen to replace him. It's because the administration fell in love with an young up-and-comer with solid credentials as a head coach at a smaller program. And that's exactly the kind of guy you're pining for today. To be sure, MU had fallen from its lofty perch post-Al, but they were still a solid borderline NCAA tournament program in the early and mid 80s (before the tourney was expanded to 64), but Bob Dukiet -- the experienced head coach with small-school success -- made it a joke.
We won't be .500 overall with 4 starters back, but we could be .500 in the BE. IMO, it's incumbant upon BUZZ to get assistant's who know the x & o fundamentals.
I was at the banquet, and I am very impressed with him in that he's very convincing and he seems to say the right things----this is his gift/strong point-----but he's not selling Fuller brushes----he's the coach of a team.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:59:00 PM
I guess I think the list of good, experienced coaches goes beyond 5, but that's just me. Buzz was always going to be there...day 3, day 5, day 7, day 9. I would have gone beyond day 3, MU chose not to.
I think one fallacy in your thinking is that MU didn't start to look at the coaches out there until Crean left. Look, within 20 minutes of Crean leaving there was a list of 20 or 30 coaches who might have been candidates--and Buzz was one of them. It was pretty obvious that there were only two or three (Miller, Few, Bennett) that were head and shoulders above the rest. It doesn't take 9 days to sort that out.
And apparetly, within a day or two MU went after those two or three. They said no.
Everyone else had some serious flaw. Once again it doesn't take 10 days to figure out what eveyone's flaw was.
--Brownell, Ford, Lowry, etc. smacked of Deane and Dukiet. Never coached at a high-major program. Uncertain whether they will succeed at the next level, and the track record of such coaches moving up and succeeding is 50/50 at best.
--Majerus, Braun, etc., led to questions of whether their hearts were still into coaching. It's been years since they had truly successful teams.
--O'Neill led to questions on whether he'd be too caustic for recruits, players, alums. He might be a good coach and recruiter. And he might be the guy that would run every decent player off the team.
--Weber led to questions on whether he could recruit effectively.
--Buzz had only one year of HC experience and only 9 months at MU.
3 days, 6 days, 9 days, 2 months--nothing would change with further evaluation. You can't evaluate you way to the conclusion that a "can't miss" prospect like Bob Dukeit would miss so badly.
After 10 more days, Brad Brownell would still make you wonder if he's the 2nd coming of Bob Dukiet. Interviews, evaluations, recommendations--nothing would change that fact. Within 20 minutes you know that he's done well at small time programs. YOu'll never know if he'll do well in the BE until he's there.
AFter 10 more days, Chris Lowrey's record would be exactly the same--declining as his predecessor's recruits work their way out of the system. He is what he is.
After 10 more days, Bob McKillop's age wouldn't be any younger--he's still be a 58 year old with no ties to the Midwest.
The attitude seems to be that MU should have at least talked to some of these other guys. Why? Can an interview change any of the fundamental objections? No!
Quote from: Pakuni on April 11, 2008, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:17:38 PM
As to your question, it's impossible to answer Pakuni. It all depends on who you ultimately get, does it not? If Providence ends up with say a Brownwell or Larry Brown, then they did a terrific job and the rejections are well worth it. If they end up with Cobb or someone like that, then the rejections weren't worth it. You can't just assign a number because it's all relative to you actually hire. I remember UCLA was rejected by 5 candidates in the early 1990's, they finally got their 6th choice. He won them a national title a few years later. Just as I remember a 1977 MU club coming off a national title that decided to go internal...and then a few years later...went internal again. And we spent the next two decades recovering after a slow slide which led to a more rapid slide to an absolute freefall after Majerus left.
This is where you lose me.
What makes you so certain Brownell is a better hire than Buzz? Brownell just as easily could be Tim Welsh, Part Deux ... a guy with some mid-major success who couldn't cut it at the next level. The major program landscape is littered with the corpses of guys like Brad Brownell, yet you're saying hiring him = "terrific job"?
You're judging who is and is not the better hire entirely on head-coaching experience, not results. Shouldn't you at least wait until we see who succeeds and who does not before declaring the better hire? Nine years ago, many, many, many fans on the other board were certain Iowa got the better hire than Marquette because they got Steve Alford. After all, he had head-coaching experience and mid-major success. How'd that turn out?
As for the 1977 club going internal ...
1. Nobody, internal or external, was going to duplicate Al's success at Marquette. MU caught lightning in a bottle there.
2. Had Marquette shown a little more patience with Majerus, this freefall you speak of probably never would have happened.
3. The absolute freefall after Majerus left wasn't because Hank Raymond was hired nine years earlier or Majerus was chosen to replace him. It's because the administration fell in love with an young up-and-comer with solid credentials as a head coach at a smaller program. And that's exactly the kind of guy you're pining for today. To be sure, MU had fallen from its lofty perch post-Al, but they were still a solid borderline NCAA tournament program in the early and mid 80s (before the tourney was expanded to 64), but Bob Dukiet -- the experienced head coach with small-school success -- made it a joke.
Actually MU first fell in love with Arkansas-Little Rock's coach and then they fell in love with Dukiet, after they fell in love with themselves and had tremendous opportunities in 1977 and 1983 to outside the family, but they didn't. I don't blame them, that's hindsight because back in those days that was often the case.
Now, do I know if Brownwell or Ford or any other would be a better hire. Nope, impossible to know. The only thing we can compare is their records as head coaches, and in that case both Brownwell and Ford fare much better than Buzz. However, Buzz's position at UNO was an odd one. What worries me more is a lot of the scuttlebutt about Buzz from UNO fans, long before he ever left coaching there. Brownwell, as an example, is nearly universally lauded as a terrific x's and o's coach.
But again, I'm not against Buzz. I know I can't convince you of that, but I'm not. I look at it almost like a draft pick. There may be a player I'd really like on my team, but that doesn't mean I pick him with the first round pick because he may only be valued at a 5th round. I'd be thrilled with him on my team in the 5th, but if they took him in the 2nd I wonder what other player they could have gotten instead.
That's essentially my point. Buzz was going to be here for days, we had plenty of time to look at a Ford, Brownwell, Altman, Les, Weber, etc.
By the way, you do know who applied for the MU job in 1977 correct? Lightning in a bottle was there to be had again.
The difference 84, in my opinion, is that Brownwell, Ford's, etc are running successful programs right now. Buzz wasn't and didn't when he had the chance (though under difficult circumstances).
You're absolutely right that it's impossible to know if Brownwell, Ford, Altman, Weber, etc would do better, but at least we know at the mid major level he has done well and was supposedly Indiana's choice after Crean. Let's not forget that being a coach is not just about X's and O's, not just about recruiting, but also about organization and running that organization.
I like a guy, personally, that has done it for awhile and done it successfully rather than learning on the job. I'd rather have that experience, I think it's worth something.
Just my two cents.
PS Weber's recruiting classes for 2009 and 2010 are very very good
Quote from: Pakuni on April 11, 2008, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 07:17:38 PM
2. Had Marquette shown a little more patience with Majerus, this freefall you speak of probably never would have happened.
Pakuni - you've got to be kidding me. As someone who was there for Hank's last year and all of Rick's, it was time to pull the plug on him. He got progressively worse, brought in marginal talent and ultimately was sub-500. He needed that fresh start at Ball State as much as we needed him out of here. Worked out well for both parties.
Chicos,
Who are you referring to that applied after 77 that could have caught lightening in a bottle?
In the end Majerus sucked as a coach at MU, I agree with you only an eagle... warrior. Also his name is Hank RaymondS, and as AL McGuire said he didn't believe Marquette would ever win another national championship, but lets keep dreaming.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2008, 09:24:01 PM
The difference 84, in my opinion, is that Brownwell, Ford's, etc are running successful programs right now.
So were Dukeit and Deane.
The question is "So what?"
So what if Brownell is successful at Wright State? There is plenty of evidence that running a low-level program successfully is not an accurate predictor of success when moving to a major program. In fact, our own recent experience has been exactly opposite--a mid-major coach is UNsuccessful. Therefore, citing Brownell's or Ford's success is irrelevant.
You suggested that MU should have determined their search criteria before beginning a search. It seems like MU did exactly that--they decided that a criteria was "no mid- or low-major coaches".