I hear a lot of people saying that MU needs to recruit a big guy. I have read post after post after post on this site decrying the program's ability to, for whatever reason or combination of them, attract top flight big-men.
I think it would be fantastic if Marquette could snatch up a big-time post player with a "ready to dominate" back to the basket game. There hasn't been one suiting up with Marquette on his chest since Robert Jackson. Without him, I don't believe that Marquette gets to the Final Four in 2003.
That being said, the main reason I can see why Marquette cannot recruit big men is because Marquette is not an elite college basketball program. This not necessarily a bad thing, because I really believe that Tom Crean's mission and goal for this team is to become an elite program. In Crean, I see a man who works tirelessly towards his goal of returning Marquette to an era of success not seen since Al was on the sidelines.
It takes a long time for a team to build up a national name recognition to the level of some of these places Marquette is now recruiting for players against. Even 8 years ago, Marquette was middling along in Conference USA. It was Crean's first true recruiting class. Enter Dwyane Wade. 3 years later Marquette was playing on the last weekend of the NCAA tournament. 3 years. Fast forward another 3 years, and Marquette is in the Big East. 3 years after that? 3 consecutive NCAA tournament appearances, an exclusive apparel, marketing and merchandise contract with a major shoe manufacturer.
My point? Success does not come overnight. It takes time to build a program to the point where we can attract big time guys like a David Padgett or a Tyler Hansborough or a Kevin Love.
I was in the student section in a half-full freaking US Cellular Arena 8 years ago when people were wetting themselves in excitement over beating a John Calipari-less UMass team on ESPN2. Two weeks ago, Marquette played 3 consecutive nights as THE prime time game on ESPN in Madison Square Garden in the Big East Tournament.
For those of you who have been involved with this program for the past 10 plus years, I would like for you to think very seriously about this question. If someone came up to you and told you that in the next 10 years Marquette would have accomplished all of the things it has, would you be surprised?
The state of Marquette Basketball is good. The future is bright, we are just in the beginning of a monumental journey.
We played Minnesota at US Cellular. UMass was at the Bradley Center.
"Marquette is not an elite basketball program"????? Thats the reason they can't recruit big men?
MU has won a national championship, been to a championship game, final fours, won the NIT at its height, is a member of the best basketball conference in the country, has produced All Americans, has all its games on national television and is not an "elite" program? Hofstra is not an elite basketball program, Cleveland State is not an elite basketball program. MU is an elite basketball program. On par with UCLA, Duke, UNC and Kansas, maybe not, but close.
I'm not even going to address your reason about non recruiting of big men for that reason, ridiculous. What is going on here?
Quote from: nyg on March 25, 2008, 07:03:16 PM
"Marquette is not an elite basketball program"????? Thats the reason they can't recruit big men?
MU has won a national championship, been to a championship game, final fours, won the NIT at its height, is a member of the best basketball conference in the country, has produced All Americans, has all its games on national television and is not an "elite" program? Hofstra is not an elite basketball program, Cleveland State is not an elite basketball program. MU is an elite basketball program. On par with UCLA, Duke, UNC and Kansas, maybe not, but close.
I'm not even going to address your reason about non recruiting of big men for that reason, ridiculous. What is going on here?
Lots of schools have National Championships, Final Fours etc and aren't Elite programs. MU didn't fall as far as schools like CCNY and LaSalle, but the years after the championship have nt been that of an Elite program. Elite programs now are those that have winning traditions throughout their past that continue to this day. Schools like UCLA, Duke, UNC, Kansas etc have traditions that MU can't even dream about matching.
And while it may matter to fans, what happened 30 years ago means nothing to a 17 year old kid being recruited unless 30 years ago was the start of a run of championships and Final Fours....not the end of it.
I guess it now comes down to the definition of "elite". I agreed with the programs mentioned and they will continue to be so defined. Add Kentucky, Indiana and a few more for tradition sake. Georgetown was nothing until the late 70s. CCNY, LaSalle, and others won when the NCAAs were not even televised, receiving minimal media attention. The Univ of Maryland won the title five years ago and was considered a powerhouse/elite program. This year they struggled, so I presume they are not elite anymore, five years away from a title.
Of course the five star recruits will, for the majority, consider those traditional schools, but it is not the sole reason MU has not been able to recruit a quality big man recently. As others here, I wish we knew the answer.
I would bet that lack of national name recognition on par with the traditional powerhouses, or as I called them earlier, elite programs, is a MAJOR factor on the failure to recruit quality big men. There are other issues I am sure since the issue seems to be endemic. As to what those other contributing factors are? Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Crean just has a hard time relating to large men.
Right now, we cannot competitively recruit head-to-head against these programs for top-flight talent on a consistent basis. Not many schools can. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but like it or not, it is a fact.
More than anything, please keep in mind that the point of my post was to state that a lot can change in a short time, and often times the sum of these changes for the better are greater than the sum of their parts.
Eventually Marquette will be able to recruit the top players in the country, it just takes time. The growth of this program over the past 8 years has been nothing short of remarkable. The players will come, it is just a matter of time. A solid foundation of competitive play is being established in THE elite basketball league in the country. Marquette is getting more and more national exposure every season and as it continues, it will bring better and better players to this team.
We do not have to recruit an all-american center. We have to recruit some adequate big bodies.
How do you explain Curry, MacIlvaine, Key, Amal, Faisal and Lovette?
And Robert Jackson, Merrit, ODB, Amo and Ooze?
I think one of the current issues is our lack of a big man on staff. When TC arrived he had Dwayne Stephens and in later years he had Bo. I would think a ex college post player on staf would show a dedication to the position.
I agree...this stupid mantra of only the top schools in the nation can recruit good big guys is just so stupid. Marquette had arguably the worst 5's in the conference. Maybe it was Seton Hall, but at least they had 3 adequate Freshman bigs that will only get better. Mu's problem the last few years has not so much been that we dont have good ones but that we have simply not signed any. Barro is our only signee of over 6'9" in the last 4 years!!, before Otule. we dont need 1 and done guys we need a top 150 4 or 5 every year and there are about 50+ of them each year! we need to sign one a year so they dont have to be forced into duty as Freshman but can matriculate to be ready to be starters by their junior year or better if they turn out better. No differen than we are doin with our guards. we have one of the best backcourts in the country and none of those guys were even Mcdonald's all-americans. Same deal with bigs sign capapble players and develop them but we gotta sign them and we did not even sign them for a 2-3 year period.
A couple thoughts to this thread from a guy who went to Marquette during the last two years of Bob Dukiet (the nadir of Marquette basketball) and the first two years of Kevin O'Neill.
Marquette has come a long way in the past 20 years, starting with O'Neill, continuing under Deane (yes, he did win some big games and won over 100 games in 5 years), and most definitely under Crean. Each conference move has been an upgrade (MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and now the Big East) and we are on TV more and more every year. The move from the Old Gym to The Al shows the upgrade in facilities and investment in the program
As good as its been, we are not an elite program - not yet. MU has still only made the Sweet Sixteen 3 times in the last 15 years (for comparison, Villanova has been there 3 times in the past 6 years). While our recruiting is good, it still does not compare to Louisville, Syracuse, Georgetown, Connecticut and in the last couple years Pitt and Villanova.
Also, look at merchandise sales. Marquette will have returned to elite status when you can buy a Marquette t-shirt or sweatshirt in a Target or Wal-Mart outside of Wisconsin and maybe Chicago.
I am happy with the state of MU basketball (especially compared to when I was in school). I think Crean has been great for MU and while we are not elite yet, we have come a long. long way from where we were 20 years ago. Keep up the recruiting, keep playing with intensity and keep getting to the NCAAs and we have a chance on eventually getting there.
I am pleased with the state of MU basketball. We are competitive each year and have made the NCAAs.
But I am still waiting for the big man who will take us to the promised land (Final Four and the NCAA Championship).
Crean has been a great recruit for guards and small forwards, but since Merritt (a C in college but really a PF), he hasn't recruiting a dominant big guy. Barro? Please. RJax? Not recruited, but transferred.
The top #1 seeds all have either a dominant center or a dominant and athletic front court.
Though I wish it has come earlier, I know it's only a matter of time...when we get one! ;D
All Marquette needs is a big man that can bang down low, play some tough D, and grab boards, a scoring big man isn't that important, but just one that can play solid, fundamental D, box out, and do all the dirty work...i know, a lot easier said than done though, but seriously i don't think it should be that hard to find one, but i;m sick of pissing my pants every time we come across some tough center that can't even moce, but is just bigger and better polished
The thing I do not understand with the elite program argument is how can Depaul get a guy like Mac Koshwal?
There is obviously a lot more to the thought process of these young players.
Quote from: Norm on March 25, 2008, 10:05:01 PM
As good as its been, we are not an elite program - not yet. MU has still only made the Sweet Sixteen 3 times in the last 15 years
Unless I'm mistaken, we've made the sweet 16 only twice in the last 15 years, 1994 and 2003. As a matter of fact, since Al McGuire retired, I'm pretty sure we have won two or more NCAA tournament games in only those two seasons (which is out of 31 seasons). We've won two conference regular season titles (one of which was the 7 team Great Midwest) and one conference tournament in that time. I'm not sure what our NCAA tournament win total is in that stretch, but it is around 12 or 13. That is not an elite program. Not close.
The truly elite programs are few. These are programs that make the tournament year in and year out and have realistic Final Four hopes at least half the time. Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and UCLA are the elite of the elite. The next level (still elite) include our Big East brethren Louisville, Syracuse and UConn, along with Indiana, Michigan State and Arizona.
Other programs I would rate ahead of ours for consistent quality include Georgetown, Villanova, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Florida, Wisconsin (as much as it pains me), Memphis, Gonzaga, and Xavier. These would be the bottom rung of the elite.
Thats 23 programs off the top of my head that I think are clearly superior to ours right now. Some years we'll do better than many of these schools, but not over 10 year stretches or anything like that. We're in a group of maybe 20-40 programs at the next level down, though we're probably closer to the top of that group. That includes schools like Cincinnati, West Virginia, NC State, Virginia, Wake Forest, Illinois, Michigan (a sleeping giant that will eventually return to national prominence), Ohio State, Stanford, Oregon, Georgia, LSU, Butler, Oklahoma State, etc. I'm sure I missed a couple of obvious ones.
Crean's working hard to get us to the next level, but we're not there yet. I would say our comps were more like DePaul, Dayton, Miami FL, etc. when he got here, so he is definitely moving us in the right direction.
Thought Kaswal was an academic risk so we backed off. It is amazing to me to watch the first 2 rounds of the turnament and see all of the schools seeded lower than MU that have a better big man than us, can not understand how we can't get at least one good bug every now and them. I see a lot of speculation that O"Toule will be the answer next year, that would be great but given his ranking I suspect he is another project. Right now I look at the frontcourt next year and hard to believe but we may be worse than this year at the 4 and 5 posiitons.
I am not worried about the 4. Lazar will improve again - this time, he will not pick up offensive charge fouls which should allow him to play up 30 mins a game. He could be a 20 pt. scorer if he does this. Mbakwe will back him up nicely. You are correct about center, although I have no idea what to expect from
O'Tule.
My error on the 4 spot, I can't get my mind around that Hayward is a 4 and not a 3 but we still do not have a center.
Quote from: sailwi on March 26, 2008, 10:52:31 AM
My error on the 4 spot, I can't get my mind around that Hayward is a 4 and not a 3 but we still do not have a center.
The reason there is no center is MU employs bigs, wings and guards instead of the old school of thought point, shooting, small, power and center positions.
Quote from: Chili on March 26, 2008, 11:04:19 AM
Quote from: sailwi on March 26, 2008, 10:52:31 AM
My error on the 4 spot, I can't get my mind around that Hayward is a 4 and not a 3 but we still do not have a center.
The reason there is no center is MU employs bigs, wings and guards instead of the old school of thought point, shooting, small, power and center positions.
potato, potaato- max nix- we still use a slender, 6'6", natural 3 as a 'BIG'. The need is obvious, constantly stating it is redundant, denying it is foolish.
Throw out the 3's and 4's and wings, etc. The facts are we do not have enough big men that can play and until we do we will do about as well as this year in a good year.
I am a big Crean supporter but I have to put the blame on Crean for the lack of big man talent. People are mentioning that we are not an elite program but that doesn't really matter. This year these teams are getting 5/4 star centers: Wake Forest (2), Ohio State, LSU, North Carolina, Oregon, Utah, Wisconsin, Clemson, Gonzaga, Virginia, Minnesota, Tennessee, SAINT LOUIS!, Xavier, Arizona, Georgetown, and Florida. In my opinion, I only see one elite program getting a top 20 center this year, North Carolina.
How are teams like Saint Louis and Utah getting these young talented big men? If you look at Minnesota, people will say, "Well, Tubby is there now." All that tells me is that if we ask why the big man is not going to Marquette, "Well, Crean is there."
I am a little worried about the state of the program. If our three juniors can say on board, we can make another run next year. If James leaves, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. (I would rather have him there though) So I am not too worried about next year. The FACT is that our three studs are at Marquette because of Wade. SO, next year is the TRUE end to the Dwayne Wade era. I have yet to see any "passing of torches" for any of the positions. I know our freshmen were hurt but they only played about a combined 5 minutes per game average. We have no four stars coming in next year. Since we are talking about elite teams, Crean can prove Marquette to be an elite team by keeping a winning team in two years. Crean has to give some different players some new roles next year or we will be REALLY bad in two years.
If I remember correctly we had some decent 'bigs' the years before Diener got hurt and we had a power forward running the point. After that, the guards started coming in like crazy, partly because Crean didn't want to be stuck in that position again. Now it looks like we're working in a little more balance with this incoming recruiting class and if we continue to bring in an ample big each year, we'll be good. If we can land Wilson in the '09 class, there will be a lot of people changing their tune.
Agree Wilson would start to solve the forward, big problem
Quote from: sailwi on March 26, 2008, 04:05:11 PM
Agree Wilson would start to solve the forward, big problem
How does that solve anything? Wilson is a perimeter slashing wing player who eventually wants to handle the point guard duties a bit. I do not see how that helps solve the big man problem.