Shaka has taken some criticism this past season.
But has any Scooper done an objective comparison of MU Coaches from Kevin O'Neill to Shaka?
Season W-L
NCAA Appearances & Advances
If already done, sorry for rehashing.
We have never had discussions here comparing coaches. Interesting idea!
Here I'll do every portion of this thread in a quick concise way
1) we should consider where we were when the coach took over. For example O'Neil and Crean took over flaming dumpsters of fire while Deane and Buzz took over experienced pretty solid rosters featuring all time great players. What about Wojo? Ners: "RSCI top 100 recruits gah", everyone else: "took over a team graduating almost everyone important with its only key experience being Juan and Derrick"
2) Buzz had the most postseason runs, Crean had the deepest run. Buzz squandered the 3 amigos & Lazar, Crean squandered Travis after Wade left.
3) Deane's NIT finals wasn't a success it was a failure and the 4 seed and the other tournament appearance was in spite of his coaching.
4) Wojo did/didn't inherit a disaster. He was in a tougher conference than Deane, two of his down years we were still competitive as opposed to the end of Deane.
5) we over emphasize march success both of Shakas 2 seeds show how great his peak was and was better than the 03, 12, or 13 teams.
That should cover all the talking points except what if scenarios regarding Travis, Dom James, & Kolek injuries.
Quote from: The Sultan on March 19, 2026, 12:16:37 PMWe have never had discussions here comparing coaches. Interesting idea!
I'm saving my Warriors nickname post for May.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 19, 2026, 01:43:09 PMI'm saving my Warriors nickname post for May.
Hold on...will you be suggesting that we revert back to a previous nickname? Wow!
I guess this is the way our minds work when we don't have to worry about Marquette basketball during March Madness.
I may have to put together my thoughts on starting a football team.
Quote from: The Sultan on March 19, 2026, 01:47:28 PMHold on...will you be suggesting that we revert back to a previous nickname? Wow!
I guess this is the way our minds work when we don't have to worry about Marquette basketball during March Madness.
I may have to put together my thoughts on starting a football team.
I was joking.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 12:50:48 PMHere I'll do every portion of this thread in a quick concise way
1) we should consider where we were when the coach took over. For example O'Neil and Crean took over flaming dumpsters of fire while Deane and Buzz took over experienced pretty solid rosters featuring all time great players. What about Wojo? Ners: "RSCI top 100 recruits gah", everyone else: "took over a team graduating almost everyone important with its only key experience being Juan and Derrick"
2) Buzz had the most postseason runs, Crean had the deepest run. Buzz squandered the 3 amigos & Lazar, Crean squandered Travis after Wade left.
3) Deane's NIT finals wasn't a success it was a failure and the 4 seed and the other tournament appearance was in spite of his coaching.
4) Wojo did/didn't inherit a disaster. He was in a tougher conference than Deane, two of his down years we were still competitive as opposed to the end of Deane.
5) we over emphasize march success both of Shakas 2 seeds show how great his peak was and was better than the 03, 12, or 13 teams.
That should cover all the talking points except what if scenarios regarding Travis, Dom James, & Kolek injuries.
You need a hobby.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 19, 2026, 04:23:17 PMYou need a hobby.
I play in a bocce league on Mondays. But I have 2 girls under 2, my hobby is diapers and tea parties.
Crean
Shaka
O'Neil
Buzz
Wojo
Deane
Wojo #1, obviously.
After that, take your pick.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 04:32:34 PMI play in a bocce league on Mondays. But I have 2 girls under 2, my hobby is diapers and tea parties.
;D Enjoy your hobbies while they last-even the diaper changing, although I am sure you prefer the tea parties. Before you know it, they will want you to buy them cars.
A Scoop tradition. Thread titles where the poster can't spell names correctly. Good grief.
" 2) Buzz squandered the 3 amigos & Lazar."
Buzz coached the Three Amigos for one year and Dominic James was hurt in the UCONN game prior to the NCAAs. It was peak gut-wrenching loss that year, but not squandered.
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 19, 2026, 05:48:24 PMA Scoop tradition. Thread titles where the poster can't spell names correctly. Good grief.
thank God we have the grammar police.
Quote from: sailwi on March 19, 2026, 07:40:22 PMthank God we have the grammar police.
This has nothing to do with grammar. Dipsh1t police? Sure. Sound the horns.
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 19, 2026, 05:55:02 PM" 2) Buzz squandered the 3 amigos & Lazar."
Buzz coached the Three Amigos for one year and Dominic James was hurt in the UCONN game prior to the NCAAs. It was peak gut-wrenching loss that year, but not squandered.
Buzz blew the Mizzou game by playing an hobbled and ineffective DJ.
wait people say we wasted Kolek Oso & Kam with only getting a s16 and conference sweep and yet we're not going to say the same about the Amigos & Lazar? In 2009 we had a Jr Lazar, Senior Wes & Jerel after Dom went down, it's hardly like Travis going down in 2005 leaving a pretty empty cupboard.
Also let's not forget we had Losses to a bad Dayton team and a bad USF team with Dom, we weren't consistently playing to what that team should've been.
KO's legacy is huge. He took a program that was dying and headed for being labeled a "mid-major" or worse and brought it back to prominence his last two years. That game against Kentucky in 94 is still one of my all time MU favorites. It's too bad it KO's last win at MU and the last ever win under the name Warriors.
I'd say Crean was the best with a FF and then three straight tourneys in a loaded Big East. Buzz inherited a powerhouse. Wojo nearly destroyed it; Shaka brought it back.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 08:54:40 PMwait people say we wasted Kolek Oso & Kam with only getting a s16 and conference sweep and yet we're not going to say the same about the Amigos & Lazar? In 2009 we had a Jr Lazar, Senior Wes & Jerel after Dom went down, it's hardly like Travis going down in 2005 leaving a pretty empty cupboard.
Also let's not forget we had Losses to a bad Dayton team and a bad USF team with Dom, we weren't consistently playing to what that team should've been.
Agree with the first paragraph.
The second...Dayton loss was early season and that team won a game in the NCAA tournament. Went 15-3 after that until the injury. We were rolling. Almost won 2 of the next 3 against top 15 teams without DJ too.
That was an awesome team.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 04:32:34 PMI play in a bocce league on Mondays. But I have 2 girls under 2, my hobby is diapers and tea parties.
Having tea parties with girls under 2? I remember the sort of activities my 3 year old son and my 2.5 year old niece liked and/or sat still for at that age...those tea parties are for you and not them my friend. Don't use your little girls as cover for your love of a proper English high tea as a proud Irishman ;D
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 08:54:40 PMwait people say we wasted Kolek Oso & Kam with only getting a s16 and conference sweep and yet we're not going to say the same about the Amigos & Lazar? In 2009 we had a Jr Lazar, Senior Wes & Jerel after Dom went down, it's hardly like Travis going down in 2005 leaving a pretty empty cupboard.
Who said we wasted Kolek Oso and Kam? I was far more disappointed about 23/24 but that was still the first second weekend appearance in a decade and a loss to the magical streak team of that tournament that made a FF despite not being that good. Just like somehow getting in the path of that random destiny branded South Carolina team.
But 22/23? Beyond the conference sweep, in retrospect its blatantly and glaringly obvious that Kolek was hurt/hindered far more than anybody realized/anticipated. He was averaging 19/5/9 on 50/45/76 shooting splits over his last 5 entering the NCAAs (and those were including against UConn, Xavier, and 2 against a SJ team that was poorly coached but still loaded with athletic talent.) Then he leaves midway through the Vermont game and then comes out against MSU and goes 2/8 with only 4 assists and 6 TOs, when he had 11 TOs in those previous 5 games combined? Yea, that wasn't just a guy having an off night in a big moment. Cause he excelled in the biggest moments in the BE tournament and there was a reason he was BE POY.
You can need to blame Shaka for his game plan or that Izzo out coached him, but losing a big chunk of the effectiveness of your AA/BE POY PG on short notice against one of the best March coaches in history (he has more E8/FF appearances than first round loses in the last 20 years) is a substantial asterisk.
It's a bit revisionist to say Wojo nearly destroyed the program. Sure he was not a great coach, but let's calm down here lol.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 20, 2026, 06:54:07 AMIt's a bit revisionist to say Wojo nearly destroyed the program. Sure he was not a great coach, but let's calm down here lol.
Right. Now Bob Dukiet on the other hand...
Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 20, 2026, 06:54:07 AMIt's a bit revisionist to say Wojo nearly destroyed the program. Sure he was not a great coach, but let's calm down here lol.
Agree. But you missed a chance to go "full Muggsy" with your "calm down".
CALM DOWN!!!
See? Isn't that better?
Quote from: JWags85 on March 19, 2026, 11:21:36 PMHaving tea parties with girls under 2? I remember the sort of activities my 3 year old son and my 2.5 year old niece liked and/or sat still for at that age...those tea parties are for you and not them my friend. Don't use your little girls as cover for your love of a proper English high tea as a proud Irishman ;D
Who said we wasted Kolek Oso and Kam? I was far more disappointed about 23/24 but that was still the first second weekend appearance in a decade and a loss to the magical streak team of that tournament that made a FF despite not being that good. Just like somehow getting in the path of that random destiny branded South Carolina team.
But 22/23? Beyond the conference sweep, in retrospect its blatantly and glaringly obvious that Kolek was hurt/hindered far more than anybody realized/anticipated. He was averaging 19/5/9 on 50/45/76 shooting splits over his last 5 entering the NCAAs (and those were including against UConn, Xavier, and 2 against a SJ team that was poorly coached but still loaded with athletic talent.) Then he leaves midway through the Vermont game and then comes out against MSU and goes 2/8 with only 4 assists and 6 TOs, when he had 11 TOs in those previous 5 games combined? Yea, that wasn't just a guy having an off night in a big moment. Cause he excelled in the biggest moments in the BE tournament and there was a reason he was BE POY.
You can need to blame Shaka for his game plan or that Izzo out coached him, but losing a big chunk of the effectiveness of your AA/BE POY PG on short notice against one of the best March coaches in history (he has more E8/FF appearances than first round loses in the last 20 years) is a substantial asterisk.
To prepare for what could have been a Championship run, Shaka bolstered his lineup by bringing in Tre Norman, Zaide Lowery, and Al Amadou--none of whom would have been expected to contribute in their first year (and as it turned out, aren't contributing in their junior year). And I believe he banked a scholarship that season as well.
That roster screamed for a couple of experienced senior role players to come in both to replace OMax and add depth for a deep NCAA run.
Quote from: JWags85 on March 19, 2026, 11:21:36 PMHaving tea parties with girls under 2? I remember the sort of activities my 3 year old son and my 2.5 year old niece liked and/or sat still for at that age...those tea parties are for you and not them my friend. Don't use your little girls as cover for your love of a proper English high tea as a proud Irishman ;D
Haha maybe tea party's a bit of a misnomer. It's more my 18mo old going "here dadda" hands me tea cup, "sit dadda" pours imaginary tea, "cheers dadda" cheers, then I go to take a sip then she yells "no!" Or "no mine!" Or "more?" And grabs the cup back. Wash rinse repeat.
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 20, 2026, 10:37:32 AMTo prepare for what could have been a Championship run, Shaka bolstered his lineup by bringing in Tre Norman, Zaide Lowery, and Al Amadou--none of whom would have been expected to contribute in their first year (and as it turned out, aren't contributing in their junior year). And I believe he banked a scholarship that season as well.
That roster screamed for a couple of experienced senior role players to come in both to replace OMax and add depth for a deep NCAA run.
I think last year was worse. One last run with a senior trio of Kam-Stevie-Jop, with decent secondary players in Gold and Ross. And they get no help.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 20, 2026, 10:40:23 AMHaha maybe tea party's a bit of a misnomer. It's more my 18mo old going "here dadda" hands me tea cup, "sit dadda" pours imaginary tea, "cheers dadda" cheers, then I go to take a sip then she yells "no!" Or "no mine!" Or "more?" And grabs the cup back. Wash rinse repeat.
Been there and done that. Relish every single second because one day you'll wake up and they'll be teens and you will be lucky to get a "hi".
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 20, 2026, 10:37:32 AMTo prepare for what could have been a Championship run, Shaka bolstered his lineup by bringing in Tre Norman, Zaide Lowery, and Al Amadou--none of whom would have been expected to contribute in their first year (and as it turned out, aren't contributing in their junior year). And I believe he banked a scholarship that season as well.
That roster screamed for a couple of experienced senior role players to come in both to replace OMax and add depth for a deep NCAA run.
This was definitely the original sin of RGV as a roster building model. I remember hearing in the summer of 2023 the original plan was that if O-Max left, they would go into the portal and get the best forward that didn't go to the NBA, with Tennessee's Olivier Nkhamhoua as the rumored target (transferred to an awful Michigan team instead).
Instead they stuck with Jop, who ended up okay but basically just a 25 mpg version of what he was as a sixth man, and Chase as the new sixth man, who was basically the same player as he had been as a freshman. No one really leveled up like they were counting on. There was incremental improvements, but nothing like how TK, Oso, Kam, and O-Max all leapt forward the year before.
That banked scholarship ended up going to Caedin in August, as I recall.
Back to the original question, KO rescued MU from the potential of topping out as an A-10 also-ran, and perhaps worse, so he'll always be #1 on my list.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 21, 2026, 08:34:26 AMBack to the original question, KO rescued MU from the potential of topping out as an A-10 also-ran, and perhaps worse, so he'll always be #1 on my list.
KO rescued the program from becoming Loyola of Chicago, and Crean rescued us from becoming Dayton or SLU.
What do both have in common? Bill Cords made the decision to fire their predecessors (Dukiet was obvious but firing Deane was controversial) and hired KO and TC, both in-demand assistants. Cords does not get nearly enough credit as he should for saving MU basketball.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 21, 2026, 04:32:18 PMKO rescued the program from becoming Loyola of Chicago, and Crean rescued us from becoming Dayton or SLU.
What do both have in common? Bill Cords made the decision to fire their predecessors (Dukiet was obvious but firing Deane was controversial) and hired KO and TC, both in-demand assistants. Cords does not get nearly enough credit as he should for saving MU basketball.
Didn't cords hire Wojo or was like brought in as a consultant for the decision?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 21, 2026, 06:16:15 PMDidn't cords hire Wojo or was like brought in as a consultant for the decision?
He was interim AD.
we always lose to bad dayton teams, that has not changed...
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 08:54:40 PMwait people say we wasted Kolek Oso & Kam with only getting a s16 and conference sweep and yet we're not going to say the same about the Amigos & Lazar? In 2009 we had a Jr Lazar, Senior Wes & Jerel after Dom went down, it's hardly like Travis going down in 2005 leaving a pretty empty cupboard.
Also let's not forget we had Losses to a bad Dayton team and a bad USF team with Dom, we weren't consistently playing to what that team should've been.
Buzz then everyone else.....
Quote from: burger on March 22, 2026, 08:51:31 PMBuzz then everyone else.....
Buzz's memory is skewed because he won 2 games in March during a very underwhelming 2011 season. He's not head and shoulders above Shaka or Crean.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 23, 2026, 09:27:38 AMBuzz's memory is skewed because he won 2 games in March during a very underwhelming 2011 season. He's not head and shoulders above Shaka or Crean.
Redemption is a great thing. I can remember when most here despised Crean. I would rank Crean above the others not just because of his final 4 run. He really marketed the program like no other coach since Al. He got Marquette featured on ESPN's college game day. I think he would make a great AD for the University.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 19, 2026, 08:54:40 PMwe had Losses to a bad Dayton team
On account of being from Dayton, all Dayton teams are bad.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 23, 2026, 06:56:57 AMLOL
By the numbers....3 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8????
Silence?
Not talking methods....I am talking production....
Crean....One shot wonder (Wade....and what's funny...he knew it) ....WOJO....Barely D-league.....Kevin O'Neil...Swearing Blowhard....Shaka....Yet to prove himself....
Listenning?
Quote from: burger on March 23, 2026, 12:05:26 PMBy the numbers....3 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8????
Silence?
Not talking methods....I am talking production....
Crean....One shot wonder (Wade....and what's funny...he knew it) ....WOJO....Barely D-league.....Kevin O'Neil...Swearing Blowhard....Shaka....Yet to prove himself....
Listenning?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2011/10/28/one-womans-stand-against-college-athletes-2/
Quote from: burger on March 23, 2026, 12:05:26 PMBy the numbers....3 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8????
Silence?
Not talking methods....I am talking production....
Crean....One shot wonder (Wade....and what's funny...he knew it) ....WOJO....Barely D-league.....Kevin O'Neil...Swearing Blowhard....Shaka....Yet to prove himself....
Listenning?
lol
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 21, 2026, 07:34:07 AMThat banked scholarship ended up going to Caedin in August, as I recall.
I forgot about Hamilton in my original post. Shaka brought in 4 frosh that year--Hamilton plus Lowery, Norman, and Amadou.
If I'm counting correctly, there was still a banked scholarship
in addition to Caedin, which makes the failure to bring in a transfer to bolster the lineup even more egregious
https://gomarquette.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/2023-24
Quote from: burger on March 23, 2026, 12:05:26 PMBy the numbers....3 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8????
Silence?
Not talking methods....I am talking production....
Crean....One shot wonder (Wade....and what's funny...he knew it) ....WOJO....Barely D-league.....Kevin O'Neil...Swearing Blowhard....Shaka....Yet to prove himself....
Listenning?
Swearing? From a college basketball coach?
(https://i.redd.it/pft0z929m96x.gif)
Quote from: burger on March 23, 2026, 12:05:26 PMBy the numbers....3 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8????
Silence?
Not talking methods....I am talking production....
Crean....One shot wonder (Wade....and what's funny...he knew it) ....WOJO....Barely D-league.....Kevin O'Neil...Swearing Blowhard....Shaka....Yet to prove himself....
Listenning?
Alternatively:
6 seed despite returning Jerel, Wes, Lazar, & upper class role players Burke, Acier & Cubi. That's without mentioning Dom who was healthy for Ls to Dayton & USF. People crap on Shaka for roughly the same performance with less big name players in 2025.
6 seed I'll give him his dues here
11 seed, this wasn't a good season. It's like if Wojo had done something in 2017. It was a very pedestrian year.
3 seed, the S16 was fun but you can't tell me that that was your hope after being 2nd in the BE with the Jae as BE POY and DJO.
3 seed, I'll give him his dues here
Crap.
I'll say 2013 > 2023, both regular season titles, E8 > BE tournament/Rd 32/2 seed but it's closer than you're giving credit for
2024 > 2012, 2nd place, both S16 w/ higher expectations but 2 seed > 3 seed
2025 vs 2009, tough but I was definitely more let down in 2009 than 2025.
2010 > 2022
2014 > 2026 but to some crap is crap
That leaves 2011 as the outlier. I'd take 2022 or 2025 regular season over that giving Shaka a chance to have an equivalent season to those.
The general point is it's not "Buzz then everyone else"
If the OP didn't make it from KO on, the obvious choice would have been Dukiet. He could play the piano like no other!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 23, 2026, 12:34:29 PMAlternatively:
6 seed despite returning Jerel, Wes, Lazar, & upper class role players Burke, Acier & Cubi. That's without mentioning Dom who was healthy for Ls to Dayton & USF. People crap on Shaka for roughly the same performance with less big name players in 2025.
6 seed I'll give him his dues here
11 seed, this wasn't a good season. It's like if Wojo had done something in 2017. It was a very pedestrian year.
3 seed, the S16 was fun but you can't tell me that that was your hope after being 2nd in the BE with the Jae as BE POY and DJO.
3 seed, I'll give him his dues here
Crap.
I'll say 2013 > 2023, both regular season titles, E8 > BE tournament/Rd 32/2 seed but it's closer than you're giving credit for
2024 > 2012, 2nd place, both S16 w/ higher expectations but 2 seed > 3 seed
2025 vs 2009, tough but I was definitely more let down in 2009 than 2025.
2010 > 2022
2014 > 2026 but to some crap is crap
That leaves 2011 as the outlier. I'd take 2022 or 2025 regular season over that giving Shaka a chance to have an equivalent season to those.
The general point is it's not "Buzz then everyone else"
That is why Shaka is TBD....This year was a major "strike" because of the "relationships" crap over "winning"
We were last place....Essentially....In a down year in the Big East....
Crean is at the top for me, and I don't agree with what others have said that he was a one-hit wonder.
The biggest "what-if" in MU basketball history since Whitehead was tossed in the 1978 NCAA tournament is the 01-02 season. If Donald Little doesn't make the only 16-foot jumper of his career and Cincinnati doesn't knock off MU near the end of the season, I don't think MU follows it up with a loss to East Carolina. Those two losses dropped MU a full seed line, if not two, and they were stuck playing an underseeded Tulsa team in the first round. That could have been a Final Four team. It had better KenPom numbers than the 03 team.
I do think he had two terrible recruting classes after the Final Four run, but the 08 team was a lucky Robin Lopez shot away from the Sweet 16, and his fingerprints obviously would have been all over the 09 team's run (which was hurt by the Mbakwe transfer just as much as the James injury).
Another perspective: I'm not sure MU gets the Big East invite without Crean's early success.
I'd put Shaka slightly over KO for second. Shaka has had more success, KO returned MU to relevency at a crucial time. Like with the 02 and 03 teams, I think the 23 team was better than the 24 team and with the way the bracket unfolded, it's not a huge leap to think that team could have played for a national title.
Buzz had some great teams and memorable players. They had an identity. They also played some brutal offensive basketball at times (see the 2012 and 2013 NCAA ousters).
Wojo was better than most MU fans give him credit for. The most frustrating part of his tenury, however, was the fact that his teams seemed to regress as the season wore on. And butchering the Howard-Hausers relationship was pretty bad. He also was the only MU coach in this group to not win a NCAA tournament game.
Quote from: burger on March 24, 2026, 10:06:50 PMThat is why Shaka is TBD....This year was a major "strike" because of the "relationships" crap over "winning"
We were last place....Essentially....In a down year in the Big East....
Ok well then I'll do a bunch of arguing how 5, 3 (FF), 7, 8, 6 (RD32) + one Travis injury away from another bid. Isn't a massive gap below Buzz.
2003 > 2013
08 = 09 except 09 had higher expectations so 08 gets an edge
2005 > 2014
2002 > 2010
2012 > 2007/2006 but regular season 2007/2006 > 2011.
Again the gap isn't as massive as you're indicating. I'll give the edge to Buzz but it's largely just that Buzz won 2 games with Jimmy to erase what would've been a very forgettable of a year.