The America I grew up in is dead. The age of rational discouse is in retrograde and the frame of American government has been bent beyond repair. We now live in an era of values based soley on the point of view of the holder of those values. This is not the age of Nihilism but is the age of the brute force, might makes right and the value of a thing is what I say it is. There is no longer a sense of objective value and common purpose. I fear that we are at the beginiing of a dark epoch as the world was before 1914. Welcome to the new age of the will to power.
Agreed. Why I have delved deeper into my faith.
Quote from: hawk on January 22, 2026, 12:31:27 PMThe America I grew up in is dead. The age of rational discouse is in retrograde and the frame of American government has been bent beyond repair. We now live in an era of values based soley on the point of view of the holder of those values. This is not the age of Nihilism but is the age of the brute force, might makes right and the value of a thing is what I say it is. There is no longer a sense of objective value and common purpose. I fear that we are at the beginiing of a dark epoch as the world was before 1914. Welcome to the new age of the will to power.
People forget the horrors of the past because they haven't had to experience them first hand.
You can apply this to many things.
It is the bane of man that he forgets. Each iteration of igorance comes with a bigger price to pay. The last one cost two world wars and thirty 0ne years. any guesses as to what this episode will cost? I have seven grandchildren aged 13 to 20 two of whom are in college. I think that it is that generation that must become the next "great generation" but I wonder what will they have to work with?
I have a 19 year old son. Counting down the days until the draft is reinstated.
Given the age of the unitary president theory, it is possible to have it start again by executive order. That's pretty scary not so much for the draft itself but for what any new troops would be used for. Assuming that the debacle of this presidency is unabated what does the world and America itself look like in one year or three and beyond the 2028 election? Oligarhs v socialists? I can't see how anyone wins moving forward. No president will just give up the power of the wjhite house that was gifted by the supreme court. The very idea of equal branches has been destroyed.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2026, 12:38:32 PMAgreed. Why I have delved deeper into my faith.
Awesome, given your posting history you must be Catholic. That's Christian. you must take comfort in the fact that the country and the government is embracing Christianity. Just like that other country in the 1930s. ;D
Oh, and in before the lock
Church and state by the constitution should be seperate. As a Christian I insist on it. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. I'd take His word for it. While it is appropriate that faith informs politics there is no place for it in politics or government proper. I will be long in my grave before I'm caught singing onward Cristian soldier
Quote from: hawk on January 22, 2026, 03:18:40 PMChurch and state by the constitution should be seperate. As a Christian I insist on it. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. I'd take His word for it. While it is appropriate that faith informs politics there is no place for it in politics or government proper. I will be long in my grave before I'm caught singing onward Cristian soldier
A pastor at a church I attended (and with whom I still stay in touch) said during a sermon, "When politics and religion are combined, both are corrupted."
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 22, 2026, 03:35:44 PMA pastor at a church I attended (and with whom I still stay in touch) said during a sermon, "When politics and religion are combined, both are corrupted."
Sounds like a commie church to me!
What's next welcoming foreigners? Feeding the less fortunate?
The founding fathers were men of the enlightenment not Jehova. I must agree with Bill Hoyle. As for feeding the less fortunate and welcoming forieners, that would seem to be the Christian thing to do
Welcoming foreigners?
The need is urgent.
Be fair. No head games.
Don't be as cold as ICE. That was yesterday.
Do away with this double vision. It makes me hot blooded.
The trouble with blind faith (not the band) is that the faithful come to believe that faith is knowledge. Faith is never knowledge. Part of the problem is that everybody thinks they know the truth but the truth is they only know what they think.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2026, 04:40:56 PMWelcoming foreigners?
The need is urgent.
Be fair. No head games.
Don't be as cold as ICE. That was yesterday.
Do away with this double vision. It makes me hot blooded.
I've been waiting, for a post like this to come into my life.
Don't worry. All will be great as soon as we conquer Iceland.
Kidding aside (as entertaining as it is) I have spent a year considering possible outcomes given the present condition of the government and the direction the country seems to be going. I always try to take into account the possibility that I could be wrong but I can't seem to find a good end game for where I think we are. It Concerns me that being born in 1951 at the begining of the ascent of the American century and now at 75 I find my country is declining faster than I am. Any philosophy/poly sci people out there to show me light at the end of tunnel? Been a long time coming and gonna be a long time gone.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 22, 2026, 04:58:53 PMI've been waiting, for a post like this to come into my life.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2026, 04:40:56 PMWelcoming foreigners?
The need is urgent.
Be fair. No head games.
Don't be as cold as ICE. That was yesterday.
Do away with this double vision. It makes me hot blooded.
I rate this post a 4.
I'm suing my bank for being woke.
That all sounds bad.
But at least daily living is affordable now. And my taxes are down.
Hey, sometimes you need a dictator.
Failure to learn the lessons of a century ago.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2026, 07:48:18 PMFailure to learn the lessons of a century ago.
C'mon now. Hitler, there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon ... two coats!"
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2026, 07:48:18 PMFailure to learn the lessons of a century ago.
It's dental school, not history school
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2026, 07:39:42 PMThat all sounds bad.
But at least daily living is affordable now. And my taxes are down.
And those $3 meals are great - especially the piece of broccoli.
Quote from: hawk on January 22, 2026, 05:59:17 PMKidding aside (as entertaining as it is) I have spent a year considering possible outcomes given the present condition of the government and the direction the country seems to be going. I always try to take into account the possibility that I could be wrong but I can't seem to find a good end game for where I think we are. It Concerns me that being born in 1951 at the begining of the ascent of the American century and now at 75 I find my country is declining faster than I am. Any philosophy/poly sci people out there to show me light at the end of tunnel? Been a long time coming and gonna be a long time gone.
I am in the same place as you, hawk. Historically, these things almost always end up resulting in extremely bloody conflicts, and I am having trouble figuring out how it will play out differently this time. As I've said before, I expect the next 4-6 years to be "interesting" in the worst way.
Currently we have a masked paramilitary that is beholden to only one person terrorizing multiple U.S. cities, now deciding unilaterally they don't need search warrants, probable cause, or the Constitution. And that one person has signaled many times he will eventually turn the military fully on the citizens.
So how do these 4-6 years play out? I have been trying to game it out but don't see an obvious path. But, I am starting from the very real premise that FASCISTS DON'T VOLUNTARILY LEAVE OFFICE. If Trump is alive, he will attempt to stay in power past 2028. The only scenario I see differently is if he can pull off a North Korea-style dynastic transition and pass it on to one of his spawn, probably Don, Jr. where he can be 1000% sure he will never be held accountable and can also keep the billions of corrupt dollars he has grifted. IMO he doesn't trust Vance nearly enough to risk turning it over to him. But that is only if Trump survives the next 3 years and can hide the accelerating cognitive decline.
I think Democrats are putting WAY too much faith in the 2026 elections. If you look at the characteristics of fascism keene.edu/academics/cchgs/resources/presentation-materials/characteristics-and-appeal-of-fascism/download/, the only one they haven't ticked off already is fraudulent elections. I kinda don't think they're going to leave that one unchecked. They're following their standard playbook of Trump floating fascist ideas ("we shouldn't even have an election") and then trying to pass it off as a joke. It isn't a joke, merely a trial balloon to start to normalize the idea, just like ICE went from catching "the worst of the worst" to warrantlessly bashing in the doors of U.S. citizens.
But, say that our institutions hold and Dems take the House. I ask myself whether that will matter. Trump is doing virtually everything by royal decree anyway by permission of the partisan Supreme Court, so will holding the House make a big difference? Even in the unlikely event the Dems take the Senate as well, does it matter? The House could impeach and there still won't be enough Republican votes to convict. So, my conclusion is that we are stuck here unless the heroic actuarial tables kick in...and if that happens, who knows what happens. We'll go from fascism to techbro authoritarianism under Vance/Musk/Thiel/Sacks. The only advantage that gives us is that those folks have a collective negative charisma, so I don't know if MAGA follows them or there is split of some sort.
TLDR; I'm pretty sure we're unnatural carnal knowledgeed and there will be a nasty reckoning within the next 6 years—either authoritarianism for 30+ years or a massive shift in our tax/economic/healthcare system to something closer to western Europe.
This thread will likely be locked soon, so...
I believe I was far from alone in thinking that after the Nazis, Mussolini and Japanese militarism were defeated in WW 11, there would never be a return to fascism and authoritarianism in democratic countries, especially the U.S. And now? That take looks childishly naive. Our fearless leader refers to Putin as "my very good friend" and marveled that he was a "savvy genius" for conquering Ukraine territory. Now it is his turn to conquer, to take whatever he wants.
Nice post TSmith. All I will add is that I think it is very possible that America's Hitler never would have come to power if the opposition offered candidates and programs, ideas, and policies that were acceptable to more voters. See my top signature. In another locked thread (this one is heading there) I wrote that I left the line on my ballot for presidential choice blank. I am so 'effing tired of being told that I have an obligation to pick a sh!tty alternate.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 23, 2026, 09:24:26 AMThis thread will likely be locked soon, so...
I believe I was far from alone in thinking that after the Nazis, Mussolini and Japanese militarism were defeated in WW 11, there would never be a return to fascism and authoritarianism in democratic countries, especially the U.S. And now? That take looks childishly naive. Our fearless leader refers to Putin as "my very good friend" and marveled that he was a "savvy genius" for conquering Ukraine territory. Now it is his turn to conquer, to take whatever he wants.
You would think. But, as someone else alluded to, there are fewer and fewer people alive that lived through it the last time.
And it seems to be a global historical cycle. The U.S. isn't the only country that has seen a rightward shift, we just are in the unique position of having the biggest and baddest economy and military in the history of the world.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 23, 2026, 09:36:09 AMNice post TSmith. All I will add is that I think it is very possible that America's Hitler never would have come to power if the opposition offered candidates and programs, ideas, and policies that were acceptable to more voters. See my top signature. In another locked thread (this one is heading there) I wrote that I left the line on my ballot for presidential choice blank. I am so 'effing tired of being told that I have an obligation to pick a sh!tty alternate.
Believe me, I am utterly frustrated at the current crop of milquetoast Democratic "leaders". It's like someone when into a lab to create the most ineffectual leaders possible and came out with Jeffries and Schumer.
Arby's to the moon! 🚀🚀🚀
"Things are going to get unimaginably worse, and they are never, ever, going to get better." ― Kurt Vonnegut
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 23, 2026, 09:36:09 AMNice post TSmith. All I will add is that I think it is very possible that America's Hitler never would have come to power if the opposition offered candidates and programs, ideas, and policies that were acceptable to more voters. See my top signature. In another locked thread (this one is heading there) I wrote that I left the line on my ballot for presidential choice blank. I am so 'effing tired of being told that I have an obligation to pick a sh!tty alternate.
I disagree.
The current regime wouldn't have come to power had politicians had backbone in 2021 and banned him from office or put him in jail for his crimes.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 23, 2026, 10:07:14 AMI disagree.
The current regime wouldn't have come to power had politicians had backbone in 2021 and banned him from office or put him in jail for his crimes.
While your statement is true, there was no way in Hell that 2/3 of the Senate was
ever going to convict. That's reality.
Talking
At rather than
With voters, lecturing them and attempting to shame them into voting for you and your agenda was
Not a successful strategy. I think the Ds will probably win the next, but by default, not by conviction.
I think the present situation has been pretty well summed up, we are all just screwed. I would agree that the next 4 to 6 years will be messy and unsatisfactory. It seems to me as of now, that the most likely outcome over time is rule by the techno/AI class. I can see a future more toward Eurosocialistic domestic policies. It is hard to imagine the American people won't demand big changes in policy given the present situation with housing,health care costs and general living conditoons. It has been my observation that despite all the crys for freedom ppeople will give it up easily for the sense of security and well being. Thew orld is complex and scary and mostly people just want to be taken care of. The desire for a strong man is never really vanquished I think. I think history is always optimistic because it is written by survivors, but that doesn't help those exerienced that history but did't survive.
Quote from: hawk on January 23, 2026, 10:39:35 AMI think the present situation has been pretty well summed up, we are all just screwed. I would agree that the next 4 to 6 years will be messy and unsatisfactory. It seems to me as of now, that the most likely outcome over time is rule by the techno/AI class. I can see a future more toward Eurosocialistic domestic policies. It is hard to imagine the American people won't demand big changes in policy given the present situation with housing,health care costs and general living conditoons. It has been my observation that despite all the crys for freedom ppeople will give it up easily for the sense of security and well being. Thew orld is complex and scary and mostly people just want to be taken care of. The desire for a strong man is never really vanquished I think. I think history is always optimistic because it is written by survivors, but that doesn't help those exerienced that history but did't survive.
The techno/AI class does not believe in those policies
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 23, 2026, 11:15:27 AMThe techno/AI class does not believe in those policies
Agree. Musk, Thiel, et al want a version of Libertarianism where all the spoils flow to them but no rules or regulations apply to them. Ain't no way they'll be in favor of a fairer tax policy, affordable healthcare, etc.in the European style.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 23, 2026, 11:39:27 AMAgree. Musk, Thiel, et al want a version of Libertarianism where all the spoils flow to them but no rules or regulations apply to them. Ain't no way they'll be in favor of a fairer tax policy, affordable healthcare, etc.in the European style.
Libertarianism sounds great....until you dig a little deeper. I see it as political Darwinism. Strict Libertarians are,
if I recall, opposed to public schools.
As long as there's no DEI
Quote from: Shaka Shart on January 23, 2026, 11:50:34 AMAs long as there's no DEI
And Riley Gaines can finish 4th instead of 5th in a collegiate swimming meet
As an old 60's liberal most of what I see today is hair on fire stuff but I was also well educated at Marquette. If you consider that all of our European allies at some point were autocratic kingdoms it might be the case that this is just a historical Hegalian dialetic of America becoming a mature nation. Somewhat ironic to me that it would be on the 250th birthday of democracy that is would crumble into authoratarin rule. I would agree that the dems win in 26 and 28 by default. I would also agree that, that win produces nothing in terms of progress because the nation seems evenly divided and there is no case in which one or the other party gets 60 votes in the Senate or that any president of any party is going to give up the gift given by the supreme court making the presidency more powerful than any other branch of government. All that considered I think it is going to be a long pweriod of tribulation and I can't see ann outcome. Even a techno oligarchy will need to deal with the real condition of the common citizen .
I will not name this man, but the husband of one of my former employees was a 10 term congressman and a member of the Blue Dogs, a group of moderate Democrats. They were all in districts that could easily vote Republican in the next election, so they had to keep their constituents happy if they wanted to keep their seats.
My wife and I got to know him as well and they stayed overnight at our house one time when Congress recessed for the summer and they were driving home in an adjoining state. He just couldn't help himself, returning to the subject of politics even as his wife tried to get him to talk about something else. What struck me most was that, without anything to gain by telling me his thoughts, he was genuinely in love with our country and really upset about some of the things going on at the time. He is retired now, but I still remember well my impression of him back then as I reflect upon the horrors of today's Congress.
They joined us for the Marquette/Georgetown game a couple of years ago, and he quickly focused on Kam as his favorite player as he made one 3 pointer after another. He and I spoke briefly about the "state of the union" and his sadness was overwhelming.
Where are the members of Congress whom we need who genuinely care? I'll vote for them even if we do not have much in common.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 23, 2026, 03:56:47 PMI will not name this man, but the husband of one of my former employees was a 10 term congressman and a member of the Blue Dogs, a group of moderate Democrats. They were all in districts that could easily vote Republican in the next election, so they had to keep their constituents happy if they wanted to keep their seats.
My wife and I got to know him as well and they stayed overnight at our house one time when Congress recessed for the summer and they were driving home in an adjoining state. He just couldn't help himself, returning to the subject of politics even as his wife tried to get him to talk about something else. What struck me most was that, without anything to gain by telling me his thoughts, he was genuinely in love with our country and really upset about some of the things going on at the time. He is retired now, but I still remember well my impression of him back then as I reflect upon the horrors of today's Congress.
They joined us for the Marquette/Georgetown game a couple of years ago, and he quickly focused on Kam as his favorite player as he made one 3 pointer after another. He and I spoke briefly about the "state of the union" and his sadness was overwhelming.
Where are the members of Congress whom we need who genuinely care? I'll vote for them even if we do not have much in common.
Died with citizens united
Quote from: hawk on January 23, 2026, 03:24:06 PMAs an old 60's liberal most of what I see today is hair on fire stuff but I was also well educated at Marquette. If you consider that all of our European allies at some point were autocratic kingdoms it might be the case that this is just a historical Hegalian dialetic of America becoming a mature nation. Somewhat ironic to me that it would be on the 250th birthday of democracy that is would crumble into authoratarin rule. I would agree that the dems win in 26 and 28 by default. I would also agree that, that win produces nothing in terms of progress because the nation seems evenly divided and there is no case in which one or the other party gets 60 votes in the Senate or that any president of any party is going to give up the gift given by the supreme court making the presidency more powerful than any other branch of government. All that considered I think it is going to be a long pweriod of tribulation and I can't see ann outcome. Even a techno oligarchy will need to deal with the real condition of the common citizen .
When was the last time federal government was truly focused on the "common citizen"?
The biggest issues I see are the severe short and long term damage done by elimination of funding, infrastructure and institutions around science and research.
It will take decades, if ever, to get back to where we were as a country just a couple years ago.
Let alone the damage down to public trust in science
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 23, 2026, 04:20:01 PMThe biggest issues I see are the severe short and long term damage done by elimination of funding, infrastructure and institutions around science and research.
It will take decades, if ever, to get back to where we were as a country just a couple years ago.
Let alone the damage down to public trust in science
Yeah. Right. You think science is real? Give us back polio so we can suffer like we are supposed to.
To jesmu84 I would say I do agree that it is an open question as to when the government last cared about the common citizen but I do believe in crtical mass. I have just had occasion to see a piece on the FBI today under Patel.I think part of the critical mass is exactly the common citizen's sense that nobody is doing the job they were intended to do. The waste time,energy and man power to do all manner of things other than what needs to be done. I agree that it will be decades at least to recover the science lost and trust between the people and the governmebnt and between governments. The toothpaste is not going back into the tube but all governments who neglect the common citizen do so at risk of being ousted. I do not recall anytime in my life that a government has so disregarded the needs of the people as this one. At some point I fear the people will rise as one and it will be back to the 60's of rioting and cities burning. The future to me seems in the hands of the 30 somethings and those younger, I have no feel for what ,as a cohort, they think. If they are as evenly divided as the rest of the country heaven hellp us.(if you believe that sort of thing)
On September 12, 1960, President Kennedy described the role of Christianity or any religion in the public life of our country:
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials; and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.
Sometimes, I think President Kennedy saw the future and realized it might not be pretty. He'd be 108 now (same age as my Mother-in-Law) and probably scared to death!
I'm a Catholic and I admit I try (and often fail) to follow the dictates of my Faith. Yet, the defining moment of my Christianity is to be the best person I can be, take into consideration my faith and my values in discharging my role in society and be mindful that not everyone is quite like me.
In my County, we have a developer who develops residential communities marketed to and for Muslims who wants to develop some "agricultural land" (what we here call "swamps"). The hatred of Muslims is so great that some folks here are organizing to use zoning and planning as a basis to deny Muslims their property rights.
Disgusting.
Quote from: hawk on January 23, 2026, 03:24:06 PMI would also agree that, that win produces nothing in terms of progress because the nation seems evenly divided and there is no case in which one or the other party gets 60 votes in the Senate or that any president of any party is going to give up the gift given by the supreme court making the presidency more powerful than any other branch of government.
It will be interesting to see how President Beshear or President Shapiro or President Newsom handles such power. I'm pretty sure I know how a President Vance would handle it ... and after 3 more years of the current BS, I don't know if our republic would survive it.
I think it is now clear that the plan all along was project 2025. The whole goal of this administration was to secure enough power to disallow the mid term election. The president doesn't care about poll numbers or popular support, he will simply ignor the results. It may well be that he hopes to initiate unrest to invoke the inserection act and not have an election. Either way It seems that the mid terms become the battle field.
Project 2025? I never heard of it.
I was calling that in 2023.
Quote from: MU82 on January 23, 2026, 07:37:49 PMIt will be interesting to see how President Beshear or President Shapiro or President Newsom handles such power. I'm pretty sure I know how a President Vance would handle it ... and after 3 more years of the current BS, I don't know if our republic would survive it.
The thing is, with this SC, that power is not applied evenly. They ruled against numerous Biden initiatives while allowing all but the most insane things from Trump, such as his ability to fire Fed Reserve members at his whim. The outcome is based on whatever the SC wants it to be and reasons are retrofitted as needed, sometimes to mindnumbing degrees.
The SC desperately needs to be reformed. Personally, I like the idea that each President gets to nominate 2 Justices per term, with the two longest serving members being retired.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 24, 2026, 08:34:34 AMThe thing is, with this SC, that power is not applied evenly. They ruled against numerous Biden initiatives while allowing all but the most insane things from Trump, such as his ability to fire Fed Reserve members at his whim. The outcome is based on whatever the SC wants it to be and reasons are retrofitted as needed, sometimes to mindnumbing degrees.
The SC desperately needs to be reformed. Personally, I like the idea that each President gets to nominate 2 Justices per term, with the two longest serving members being retired.
When the Philippines wrote a new constitution post-Marcos, they 1) limited Presidents to one term, and 2) made 70 the mandatory retirement age for their Supreme Court justices. I'm all of both when we have to write a new Constitution in 2028.
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