Due to a departure and injuries, that is how many minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores last night. At MSG. Against the preseason #2 in the country. They didn't quit. They got beat up and wore down. Objectively, it was exactly what one should expect from a team dressing 9 players, on the road, against a good team. Like Michael Phillips or any 190 lb freshman should be expected to effectively defend Hopkins or Ejiofor.
Yup, it sucks. The remaining 9 are what MU has for now. Hopefully, this pays off in seasons to come.
The glass is 3% full.
Shaka should be upset at whoever constructed the roster to put him in such a predicament.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 14, 2026, 07:37:16 AMShaka should be upset at whoever constructed the roster to put him in such a predicament.
Good point, we should be up in arms at the front office. Loosen the purse strings you misers!
MU was really fortunate Zuby and Hopkins both picked up 2 fouls in the first few minutes of the game. It let our guys at least get a half of non garbage time minutes.
I thought each of the young guys had some decent stretches. Caedin a few good possessions on both ends, etc. Though, I'm not confident the growth trajectory of this group will come close to exceeding the reload level of our competition on a year to year basis. It was frustrating when Parham, Owens, and Phillips all missed a layup in the span of 2 seconds.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 05:47:05 AMAgainst the preseason #2 in the country.
I get your point but this portions pretty much irrelevant in mid january
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 14, 2026, 07:37:16 AMShaka should be upset at whoever constructed the roster to put him in such a predicament.
What do you expect when the GM whiffs on back-to-back (to back?) draft classes and signs no one in free agency?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2026, 08:00:51 AMWhat do you expect when the GM whiffs on back-to-back (to back?) draft classes and signs no one in free agency?
The Washington Wizards, not the Marquette Golden Eagles of 2025-26.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 14, 2026, 07:59:42 AMI get your point but this Quote from: CountryRoads on January 14, 2026, 07:51:58 AMMU was really fortunate Zuby and Hopkins both picked up 2 fouls in the first few minutes of the game. It let our guys at least get a half of non garbage time minutes.
I thought each of the young guys had some decent stretches. Caedin a few good possessions on both ends, etc. Though, I'm not confident the growth trajectory of this group will come close to exceeding the reload level of our competition on a year to year basis. It was frustrating when Parham, Owens, and Phillips all missed a layup in the span of 2 seconds.
Yes. Yes it was. A microcosm. A good play, good hustle, everything the way it was designed. Doink, doink, doink.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 14, 2026, 07:59:42 AMI get your point but this portions pretty much irrelevant in mid january
It's a ridiculous thing to say and taints the whole bit.
A similar thing to say is that St. John's beat the crap out of the preseason KenPom #47 team by 24 points, which could have been much if not foul actual foul trouble and perceived foul trouble (slick rick is criminal when it comes to auto-subbing guys with two fouls in the first half).
Irrelevant at the moment, but still a fact.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 14, 2026, 07:59:42 AMI get your point but this portions pretty much irrelevant in mid january
Fits the narrative.
Eliminate all other data points and arguments that have gone on for the last two months.
Go back to Halloween. If I told you I had seen one future game and it was the SJU game at the garden. I told you MU dressed nine players. I told you that Gold, Jones, and Lowery did not play. I told you that freshmen and sophomores played 157 minutes. In October, with only that information, what would you project the outcome to be?
Pretty much what it was.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:57:39 AMEliminate all other data points and arguments that have gone on for the last two months.
Go back to Halloween. If I told you I had seen one future game and it was the SJU game at the garden. I told you MU dressed nine players. I told you that Gold, Jones, and Lowery did not play. I told you that freshmen and sophomores played 157 minutes. In October, with only that information, what would you project the outcome to be?
Pretty much what it was.
Some would have said Mr. Massive Transformation would step up and eat Zuby's lunch.
I'm just happy my boy Damarius got some good run.
We'll get em next time.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:57:39 AMEliminate all other data points and arguments that have gone on for the last two months.
Go back to Halloween. If I told you I had seen one future game and it was the SJU game at the garden. I told you MU dressed nine players. I told you that Gold, Jones, and Lowery did not play. I told you that freshmen and sophomores played 157 minutes. In October, with only that information, what would you project the outcome to be?
Pretty much what it was.
You should do something more useful with your time-travel capabilities than watch this sh!t.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:57:39 AMEliminate all other data points and arguments that have gone on for the last two months.
Go back to Halloween. If I told you I had seen one future game and it was the SJU game at the garden. I told you MU dressed nine players. I told you that Gold, Jones, and Lowery did not play. I told you that freshmen and sophomores played 157 minutes. In October, with only that information, what would you project the outcome to be?
Pretty much what it was.
At that point in time, would you have expected that neither Parham nor Owens would have improved an iota from last season and that James would be better than Jones? MU definitely missed Gold. They also lack strength and basketball IQ.
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 14, 2026, 08:31:27 AMA similar thing to say is that St. John's beat the crap out of the preseason KenPom #47 team by 24 points, which could have been much if not foul actual foul trouble and perceived foul trouble (slick rick is criminal when it comes to auto-subbing guys with two fouls in the first half).
This run-on sentence is WOOF!
Quote from: 18thandWells on January 14, 2026, 09:23:05 AMYou should do something more useful with your time-travel capabilities than watch this sh!t.
If only
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:33:32 AMIrrelevant at the moment, but still a fact.
Hilarious that you cite a preseason #2 ranking as some justification for what happened last night. An under-achieving, unranked team with their two best players sidelined an entire half beat Marquette by 24. At least Shaka was happy that "the five guys really poured into each other the second half"...beyond parody at this point.
Quote from: onepost on January 14, 2026, 10:34:40 AMHilarious that you cite a preseason #2 ranking as some justification for what happened last night. An under-achieving, unranked team with their two best players sidelined an entire half beat Marquette by 24. At least Shaka was happy that "the five guys really poured into each other the second half"...beyond parody at this point.
The team sucks and this year shouldn't be happening, but Zuby played 2 fewer minutes last night than he averages on the year. You don't have to make stuff up to show things are bad.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:57:39 AMEliminate all other data points and arguments that have gone on for the last two months.
Go back to Halloween. If I told you I had seen one future game and it was the SJU game at the garden. I told you MU dressed nine players. I told you that Gold, Jones, and Lowery did not play. I told you that freshmen and sophomores played 157 minutes. In October, with only that information, what would you project the outcome to be?
Pretty much what it was.
We've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 14, 2026, 10:37:20 AMThe team sucks and this year shouldn't be happening, but Zuby played 2 fewer minutes last night than he averages on the year. You don't have to make stuff up to show things are bad.
Was I wrong? He was saddled with foul trouble and sat the majority of the first half.
Next you're gonna tell me that rest is why Zuby beat Chase and Caedin down the court for the backcourt errant-pass dunk: maybe the most humiliating play of our season.
Quote from: onepost on January 14, 2026, 10:44:14 AMWas I wrong? He was saddled with foul trouble and sat the majority of the first half.
Next you're gonna tell me that rest is why Zuby beat Chase and Caedin down the court for the backcourt errant-pass dunk: maybe the most humiliating play of our season.
I guess everyone can claim Zuby was sidelined for an entire half. He plays 28 minutes per game on the year. He played 26 last night.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 14, 2026, 10:55:58 AMI guess everyone can claim Zuby was sidelined for an entire half. He plays 28 minutes per game on the year. He played 26 last night.
Ahh here's the weekly semantics schtick from you.
Can't make any on-court arguments this season so into the minutiae you go!
Yes you're right, Zuby played fewer minutes than he does on the season and Marquette lost by 10 points more than the experts and models predicted - pretty pathetic of us!
Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2026, 10:39:46 AMWe've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.
Exact opposite. I would have expected the same outcome from a team not named Marquette in the same situation.
Quote from: onepost on January 14, 2026, 11:20:56 AMAhh here's the weekly semantics schtick from you.
Can't make any on-court arguments this season so into the minutiae you go!
Yes you're right, Zuby played fewer minutes than he does on the season and Marquette lost by 10 points more than the experts and models predicted - pretty pathetic of us!
AKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts. You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).
If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up. Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).
Quote from: wadesworld on January 14, 2026, 11:25:02 AMAKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts. You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).
If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up. Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).
OUCH! ;D
Quote from: wadesworld on January 14, 2026, 11:25:02 AMAKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts. You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).
If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up. Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).
You're wrong. Zuby played 7:30 in the first and 18:30 in the second - so me saying he sat the "majority" of the first half is factual. Bryce Hopkins played 2:15 in the first and 16:45 in the second. "Their two best players sat the entire first half" because they played 10 out of 40 possible minutes is me exaggerating a point, that we were only in that game for a half because their two best players sat for most of it. I can't believe I
literally have to spell this out for you yet again.
You call that "making something up" when it's really not. I can call Tre Norman "the worst player I've ever seen" and you'd accuse me of lying, but this is a message board where people exaggerate and embellish and we're not guilty of libel last I checked: unless it's you picking nits to take away from how wrong you've been about our entire season.
I would argue that they did in fact quit. The annoying broadcasters went on and on about how Zuby outhustled our players on that turnover breakaway hoop. That lack of effort is the definition of quitting.
This was not going to be a good team this year, and it was very apparent when Shaka didn't go get any experienced players to bridge to the younger talent. Even Shaka said this team had a lot of growth they needed to do over the summer. He chose to sink and swim with this group. It was stubborn on his part.
That we have gone through significant injuries during his tenure here should have been another nudge to go get an experienced player or two instead of going young again.
Before the season started I would have told you we would lose by double digits at MSG if everything went perfect. 157 minutes of freshmen/soph playing with this roster, yeah that was going to be a bad loss against pretty much anyone on the road.
It could have been avoided but being stubborn prevailed.
Quote from: onepost on January 14, 2026, 11:49:02 AMYou're wrong. Zuby played 7:30 in the first and 18:30 in the second - so me saying he sat the "majority" of the first half is factual. Bryce Hopkins played 2:15 in the first and 16:45 in the second. "Their two best players sat the entire first half" because they played 10 out of 40 possible minutes is me exaggerating a point, that we were only in that game for a half because their two best players sat for most of it. I can't believe I literally have to spell this out for you yet again.
You call that "making something up" when it's really not. I can call Tre Norman "the worst player I've ever seen" and you'd accuse me of lying, but this is a message board where people exaggerate and embellish and we're not guilty of libel last I checked: unless it's you picking nits to take away from how wrong you've been about our entire season.
Thanks for confirming that their two best players were not out for a half. Lot of words to say "I was wrong."
Also, anybody who thinks Bryce Hopkins is the second best player (or best) on St. John's doesn't know ball.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2026, 10:39:46 AMWe've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.
Hey now, don't forget the part where Ben gold would have made it a 19 point loss.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 14, 2026, 12:09:53 PMThanks for confirming that their two best players were not out for a half. Lot of words to say "I was wrong."
Also, anybody who thinks Bryce Hopkins is the second best player (or best) on St. John's doesn't know ball.
Sellers is having a great season but Ejiofor and Hopkins are their best players.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 11:23:18 AMExact opposite. I would have expected the same outcome from a team not named Marquette in the same situation.
Any team down a few bench players and getting minutes from freshmen and sophomores would have lost by 24 last night?
I'm skeptical.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2026, 10:39:46 AMWe've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.
Seems like 20 plus losses are becoming a thing with this team.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 08:23:49 AMYes. Yes it was. A microcosm. A good play, good hustle, everything the way it was designed. Doink, doink, doink.
The "Triple Doink" shall live in infamy!
Quote from: Pakuni on January 14, 2026, 02:09:17 PMAny team down a few bench players and getting minutes from freshmen and sophomores would have lost by 24 last night?
I'm skeptical.
This amuses me.
A seriousish question for the board. When you watch games, do games fall into patterns to the point that you can almost predict what happens over the next few minutes, as you have seen it with dozens of teams in dozens of games?
Case in point: The IU game overlapped with the MU game last night. My wife and I watched our favorite teams separately. Afterwards, I asked her about the IU-Sparty game. 'Meh. Tied at 53 IU foul trouble caught up and Sparty upped their intensity'. That is all I needed to recognize a pattern and know the outcome.
'How about Marquette game'? "Nine players dressed, 7 freshman and sophomores, at MSG".
'Ouch. 25-30 points?'
Putting aside the spousal banter shorthand, aren't there certain patterns that you notice when you watch other teams play?
For me, one is always who stands around on offense first and off ball movement. Another is defensive rotations. How quickly teams recognize a zone. That sometimes bad free throw shooting is like the norovirus. That Sparty at home almost always finds another gear.
And like last night. That young, undermanned teams usually lose badly on the road. In my mind, it is an expected, a given, a cliche.
And I always assume that MU is not immune from these patterns.
Does anybody else watch games with this mindset?
I agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.
Is there
Quote from: Judge Smails on January 14, 2026, 04:29:42 PMI agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.
Is there an argument these guys should slightly put their foots off the brakes in a season like this? Don't need guys diving head first into the second row for a ball down 20 in a lost season. maybe
Quote from: Judge Smails on January 14, 2026, 04:29:42 PMI agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.
I disagree. Ejiofor and Hopkins sat a bunch in rhe first half, came out and imposed their will. MU didn't have enough size, strength, bulk to counter. MU got beat up and worn out.
The title of this thread reminds me of that movie "127 Hours" where James Franco's character gets his arm stuck under a boulder and has to amputate it to free himself and stay alive. *SPOILER ALERT* At the end of the movie, Shaka offers him a scholarship and then redshirts him.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 05:47:05 AMDue to a departure and injuries, that is how many minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores last night. At MSG. Against the preseason #2 in the country. They didn't quit. They got beat up and wore down. Objectively, it was exactly what one should expect from a team dressing 9 players, on the road, against a good team. Like Michael Phillips or any 190 lb freshman should be expected to effectively defend Hopkins or Ejiofor.
Yup, it sucks. The remaining 9 are what MU has for now. Hopefully, this pays off in seasons to come.
You nailed the problem.
When the 5th year of a regime has a junior and senior class of low Division 1 players, the problem is self-evident.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 14, 2026, 03:25:35 PMSeems like 20 plus losses are becoming a thing with this team.
Absolutely, joyless willie!
20-plus losses every single season, year after year after year. Yup, truly a Marquette thing.
What is it now ... 14 straight 20-loss seasons?
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 03:56:48 PMThis amuses me.
A seriousish question for the board. When you watch games, do games fall into patterns to the point that you can almost predict what happens over the next few minutes, as you have seen it with dozens of teams in dozens of games?
Case in point: The IU game overlapped with the MU game last night. My wife and I watched our favorite teams separately. Afterwards, I asked her about the IU-Sparty game. 'Meh. Tied at 53 IU foul trouble caught up and Sparty upped their intensity'. That is all I needed to recognize a pattern and know the outcome.
'How about Marquette game'? "Nine players dressed, 7 freshman and sophomores, at MSG".
'Ouch. 25-30 points?'
Putting aside the spousal banter shorthand, aren't there certain patterns that you notice when you watch other teams play?
For me, one is always who stands around on offense first and off ball movement. Another is defensive rotations. How quickly teams recognize a zone. That sometimes bad free throw shooting is like the norovirus. That Sparty at home almost always finds another gear.
And like last night. That young, undermanned teams usually lose badly on the road. In my mind, it is an expected, a given, a cliche.
And I always assume that MU is not immune from these patterns.
Does anybody else watch games with this mindset?
I take it that your wife's comment was in the context of already knowing MU is God awful. Duke, KU, and UK have often played with frosh on the road and won. The problem MU has is not the freshmen. The problem is the lack of production from sophomores, redshirt sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Who would have thought before the season started that James would be better than Jones and Stevens would be better than DO and Lowery? It would be understandable if the freshmen were superstars, but they're not.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 03:56:48 PMAnd like last night. That young, undermanned teams usually lose badly on the road. In my mind, it is an expected, a given, a cliche.
On Wojo's second MU team, the freshman and sophomore classes averaged 149 minutes per game. They lost two games all season by 20 points or more (and none on the road).
On the 2005-06 team, the freshman and sophomore class averaged 156 minutes per game. They lost zero games by more than 20 points and only two by more than 10.
This year's team now has five losses by 20+. This isn't an age or depth problem. It's a talent problem.
It is a bad season.
If Jon Rothstein ever goes into standup comedy, I've got a joke for him:
"How bad has Caedin Hamilton been this year? Well, I went to my dermatologist last week, and he told me I needed to have an embedded mole removed."
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 03:56:48 PMThis amuses me.
A seriousish question for the board. When you watch games, do games fall into patterns to the point that you can almost predict what happens over the next few minutes, as you have seen it with dozens of teams in dozens of games?
Case in point: The IU game overlapped with the MU game last night. My wife and I watched our favorite teams separately. Afterwards, I asked her about the IU-Sparty game. 'Meh. Tied at 53 IU foul trouble caught up and Sparty upped their intensity'. That is all I needed to recognize a pattern and know the outcome.
'How about Marquette game'? "Nine players dressed, 7 freshman and sophomores, at MSG".
'Ouch. 25-30 points?'
Putting aside the spousal banter shorthand, aren't there certain patterns that you notice when you watch other teams play?
For me, one is always who stands around on offense first and off ball movement. Another is defensive rotations. How quickly teams recognize a zone. That sometimes bad free throw shooting is like the norovirus. That Sparty at home almost always finds another gear.
And like last night. That young, undermanned teams usually lose badly on the road. In my mind, it is an expected, a given, a cliche.
And I always assume that MU is not immune from these patterns.
Does anybody else watch games with this mindset?
It depends on how many bong hits for me
Quote from: Johnny B on January 14, 2026, 04:41:49 PMIs there Is there an argument these guys should slightly put their foots off the brakes in a season like this? Don't need guys diving head first into the second row for a ball down 20 in a lost season. maybe
Everyone on the team is being evaluated by the tape they produce. Their value should be judged by their tape.
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2026, 07:35:07 PMIt is a bad season.
Yes, exactly.
And it's bad season because it's a bad team.
Quote from: Johnny B on January 14, 2026, 04:41:49 PMIs there Is there an argument these guys should slightly put their foots off the brakes in a season like this? Don't need guys diving head first into the second row for a ball down 20 in a lost season. maybe
I thought the Villanova game at Fiserv was the most active and highest EGB (sorry) level game thus far. Guys really had a spring in their step and Shaka's coaching was energetic as well. Maybe not getting that W and then flying to NY a couple days later took something out of them. Despite the adage that effort should be consistent, these are young human beings who've been taking a ton of flak all season. I want them to learn as much as they can as they go. My Dad was never a coach but he had a great insight about sports. "More players get injured when they are NOT going all-out than when they are." I would bet the numbers back this up. Think of how many injuries happen during scrub time when the result is inevitable. I hope these guys give everything they've got from here to March.