Is this the worst MU team in our history? I've heard nightmares about Dukiet.
We're not going to have many SotG this year
Pack up the SotG board for next year, may not be needed this year.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 20, 2025, 09:42:42 PMWe're not going to have many SotG this year
At MU in the 70's and a STH for most of the time since then and I'm struggling to remember a worse team. BUT - I still feel better about MU basketball now then I did during the Dukiet years
It's time for a reboot. Appreciative for last four years, but this season is undoubtedly negligence.
Yes. I go back to 1979. They are awful and historically so.
Pretty amazing since they won the National Championship during the 1976-1977 season.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on December 20, 2025, 10:01:33 PMYes. I go back to 1979. They are awful and historically so.
Wow, just wow. How tragic.
79 team had Bernard Toone and made the tourney, that team would kill this team
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 20, 2025, 10:41:29 PM79 team had Bernard Toone and made the tourney, that team would kill this team
I don't think anyone said they wouldn't.
I go back to 1966. The only time I remember they were this bad was when jim Chones left us in 1972 and we fell apart against Detroit, 70-49.
But that was one game and this is a season.
Our talent may not be up to snuff, but we are not THIS bad. Something is really wrong and the problem is at the core of the team! Everything isn't working, coaching, talent, schemes, technique.
I'm not suggesting 1979 was bad, that's as far as I go back. Even the worst MU teams of all-time had some talent. This is the worst MU team in my lifetime. Any of the below average teams of the 80-90s would be better.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 20, 2025, 10:44:34 PMI go back to 1966. The only time I remember they were this bad was when jim Chones left us in 1972 and we fell apart against Detroit, 70-49.
But that was one game and this is a season.
Our talent may not be up to snuff, but we are not THIS bad. Something is really wrong and the problem is at the core of the team! Everything isn't working, coaching, talent, schemes, technique.
Ty, brother Dgies. I didn't even fathom the possibility of being this bad. Will we win another game? Shouldn't we just play the young guys from now on to see what we have moving forward?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 20, 2025, 09:41:15 PMIs this the worst MU team in our history? I've heard nightmares about Dukiet.
How old are you? You sound 80+
I can remember the Majerus years better than the Dukiet years. During the Majerus years I don't believe Marquette made the NCAA tournament even once. That said, I still would take any Majerus team over this one.
I think the Dukiet teams were pretty close to as bad as this team, but not being in the Big East at that time they certainly didn't play as tough of a schedule as this year's team does.
As has been said by others, it felt like at least Tony Smith and Trevor Powell were worth watching and Mark Anglavar was decent as well. I'll be fair and say I don't remember the Dukiet years as well as I went to UW-Green Bay 1987-1989 and didn't catch as many MU games during that period as I did in the years before that.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 20, 2025, 10:44:34 PMI go back to 1966. The only time I remember they were this bad was when jim Chones left us in 1972 and we fell apart against Detroit, 70-49.
But that was one game and this is a season.
Our talent may not be up to snuff, but we are not THIS bad. Something is really wrong and the problem is at the core of the team! Everything isn't working, coaching, talent, schemes, technique.
What? What was our recorded in 1972?
The 1987-88 team was brutal. That was then worst team since Al came to MU. This year's team has a shot to take that title. Especially since we have made four straight NCAA tournaments.
87-88 and 88-89 teams were horrendous. They would lose to 5 random guys at the rec center. More than once I was one of the 5 random guys. This team is MUCH better than those days.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 20, 2025, 09:41:15 PMIs this the worst MU team in our history? I've heard nightmares about Dukiet.
This is Dukiet part 2. It is a Dukiet Do Over. Only thing different is that the talent .right now is allegedly better.
I used to send letters to the AD back then, and one day I actually got a responding letter saying a change had been made.
This is easily the worst team since then, although in fairness, the competition is significantly better now.
MU has devolved into a low major and is now becoming a cupcake on opponents schedule. There is no question about that
Would have to go back to Ed Hickeys era, maybe his last season. Back in those days we did have Don Kojis who was a stud. But as I recall, his last year was like 5-21. Too lazy to look it up and get a bad memory.
Something definitely needs to have a significant emotional event to get this stuff to change now. Saw the team going downhill last year but did not fathom it would be this bad. The gap is now a chasm and really don't see much to change it. Might as well play the young guys now to let them grow. Probably too late, but bring some of the redshirt out.
Tom Petty." I'm free fallin"
Quote from: Warrior of Law on December 20, 2025, 10:48:31 PMI'm not suggesting 1979 was bad, that's as far as I go back. Even the worst MU teams of all-time had some talent. This is the worst MU team in my lifetime. Any of the below average teams of the 80-90s would be better.
Understood. I misread.
The Dukiet years were close to this bad.
This team is - by far - the worst team since KO.
Do we think the fools at MU still have the RGV shyt out front and center?
Maybe Kimo can buy up the rest....
This is just so odd with a good head coach and proven track record.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 20, 2025, 09:41:15 PMIs this the worst MU team in our history? I've heard nightmares about Dukiet.
might be, Muggsy. I'm class of '86 but had family at MU going back to the mid-70's. This team is crazy bad. It hardly resembles a 'team', actually. Dukiet era was rough too, but I felt KO would get us back on track, and he did. I'm nervous that Shaka is dug in on RGV, and the current administration is ok with it.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 21, 2025, 07:21:32 AMThis is just so odd with a good head coach and proven track record.
Agreed. I don't have any inside info, but I'm really getting a vibe that there is something much bigger going on that is causing this
I can't believe that 1. Shaka has lost his ability to coach, 2. These players don't have even mid-major level of skill and/or 3. That the coaches and players dislike and distrust each so much that they can't work together.
Purely a guess, but I think Shaka is leaving by his choice.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 21, 2025, 05:38:13 AMThis is Dukiet part 2. It is a Dukiet Do Over. Only thing different is that the talent .right now is allegedly better.
I used to send letters to the AD back then, and one day I actually got a responding letter saying a change had been made.
This is easily the worst team since then, although in fairness, the competition is significantly better now.
MU has devolved into a low major and is now becoming a cupcake on opponents schedule. There is no question about that
I would give just about anything to see one of these letters.
Living here on the East Coast Marquette Basketball during the 80s and 90s was a black hole as there was little TV or even print coverage of the team. So I only got to see them when they were playing well.
I was a Senior in HS for Al's worst year. I was a casual fan of college basketball at the time and followed Bill Bradly at Princeton. MU was really trying to generate interest in the team so they offered incoming freshman 8 dollar/reserved seat season tickets grand fathered in for each season. We know Al's history. The team got progressively better each season, though our title team was not his best but they won a title.
Even the first 4 years Shaka's team always faded at the end of the season and regressed instead of progressing. Yes, this is the worst team I have ever seen them play so far. I also get the Buzz final year vibe though I could be wrong as it is not only Shaka but the Administration dug in on RGV. Should be an interesting April Fool's Day. I don't think they know how to approach this new landscape of college basketball.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 21, 2025, 08:33:45 AMLiving here on the East Coast Marquette Basketball during the 80s and 90s was a black hole as there was little TV or even print coverage of the team. So I only got to see them when they were playing well.
I was a Senior in HS for Al's worst year. I was a casual fan of college basketball at the time and followed Bill Bradly at Princeton. MU was really trying to generate interest in the team so they offered incoming freshman 8 dollar/reserved seat season tickets grand fathered in for each season. We know Al's history. The team got progressively better each season, though our title team was not his best but they won a title.
Even the first 4 years Shaka's team always faded at the end of the season and regressed instead of progressing. Yes, this is the worst team I have ever seen them play so far. I also get the Buzz final year vibe though I could be wrong as it is not only Shaka but the Administration dug in on RGV. Should be an interesting April Fool's Day. I don't think they know how to approach this new landscape of college basketball.
Well they're the only ones then. This is pretty easy to see the model needed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 20, 2025, 09:41:15 PMIs this the worst MU team in our history? I've heard nightmares about Dukiet.
I lived the last three years of Dukiet, graduated 1989. This is bad, but this team has talent and hope. Therefore, not as bad as Dukiet, in my view.
I've only been affiliated with MU since 1994, so this is by far the worst team in my fandom. What makes it worse is that this wasn't expected. In Deane's last year, we all knew the program was slipping and we didn't have the level of talent to compete for the tourney. Nobody was pumping up the recruiting rankings and pro potential of John Cliff, John Mueller, Greg Clausen, and Bart Miller. This was not what we were sold by Shaka, Broeker, or President Kimo.
Dukiet years were my college years. That was miserable. What makes this worse is that it appears Shaka has talent but refuses to have coherent rotations or an offense that takes advantage of the talent they have.
Quote from: Richie on December 21, 2025, 09:03:48 AMI lived the last three years of Dukiet, graduated 1989. This is bad, but this team has talent and hope. Therefore, not as bad as Dukiet, in my view.
Quote from: Richie on December 21, 2025, 09:03:48 AMI lived the last three years of Dukiet, graduated 1989. This is bad, but this team has talent and hope. Therefore, not as bad as Dukiet, in my view.
The last three years of Dukiet were his only three at MU.
A little hard to compare this year and Dukiet's final team. We were still an independent, started MCC play in 89-90, O'Neill's first season. So apples and oranges the competition then and now.
I wouldn't rate this team quite as bad as Dukiet's 88-89 team. Other than Tony Smith, cupboard was really bare. There were no good freshmen and Trevor Powell out of Milwaukee Washington HS was the only sophomore who was anything.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 21, 2025, 09:23:15 AMThe last three years of Dukiet were his only three at MU.
.
I am aware, I was there for all of it. Rick's last year was our first
Quote from: Richie on December 21, 2025, 09:25:15 AMQuote from: HutchwasClutch on December 21, 2025, 09:23:15 AMThe last three years of Dukiet were his only three at MU.
.
I am aware, I was there for all of it. Rick's last year was our first
I didn't intend to be nitpicking your post. The way it was worded gives the impression to those not around then his tenure at MU was longer than 3 years.
Pat Foley, Mark Anglavar, Trevor Powell and Tony Smith are all better than any of current team members with the only exception is Nigel James.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on December 21, 2025, 09:47:27 AMPat Foley, Mark Anglavar, Trevor Powell and Tony Smith are all better than any of current team members with the only exception is Nigel James.
[/quoteQuote from: Warrior of Law on December 21, 2025, 09:47:27 AMPat Foley, Mark Anglavar, Trevor Powell and Tony Smith are all better than any of current team members with the only exception is Nigel James.
True.
I go back to '61, now that's a long time ago and we were bad, but we had fun.
What goes around comes around.
Players committing burglaries, bar owners getting arrested for taking book, we were unaffiliated and played one game at a time.
We got dressed up, had dates and sat mid court.
Now it's a BIG business.
Wasn't Peacock fun last night?
I agree that Nigel is the best we have, but I'm not really convinced he's all that great. He's crafty in 1x1 iso ball but the only outcomes from him doing that are either a shot or a turnover. He doesn't really have passing skills out of it. His 3 point shot looks like an old guy at the Y.
I'm super down on the team and have been for nearly a year so maybe that's my overall negativity shining through.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 21, 2025, 08:32:43 AMI would give just about anything to see one of these letters.
I should have saved the response I finally got from the AD then. Some scooper would buy it. Priceless.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 21, 2025, 10:18:07 AMI agree that Nigel is the best we have, but I'm not really convinced he's all that great. He's crafty in 1x1 iso ball but the only outcomes from him doing that are either a shot or a turnover. He doesn't really have passing skills out of it. His 3 point shot looks like an old guy at the Y.
I'm super down on the team and have been for nearly a year so maybe that's my overall negativity shining through.
Nigel's skillset is there. He may not be "great", but he is a baller. I really like what I see from him. I really hope he stays.
I started at MU in 1976. Little did I know that season would be the apex of my fandom (although my three older siblings all went to MU so I was prepped properly--so close in 1974). In Deane's last year he was 14-15 and yet the AD received pleas to keep him. Crean lost to Western Michigan in the first round of the NIT in 2005, 54-40. It looked like there were 3,000 fans attending that train wreck of a game at the Bradley Center, yet he lasted three more seasons at Marquette. Dukiet, as noted, was awful, yet I kept season tickets and annually maintained a strong interest until now.
This season just feels different than any other. I went to the game against the Badgers in Madison (I've gone to every game there since 1995/ twice at the Field House), and while it's anecdotal, there were fewer Marquette fans at the Kohl hole this year than ever before. It was pitiful. I've checked out.
go back to 1968. the Dukiet era was bad but for a single team i think this is the worst. no cohesion, no offensive flow and no D
Quote from: vogue65 on December 21, 2025, 10:09:41 AMI go back to '61, now that's a long time ago and we were bad, but we had fun.
What goes around comes around.
Players committing burglaries, bar owners getting arrested for taking book, we were unaffiliated and played one game at a time.
We got dressed up, had dates and sat mid court.
Now it's a BIG business.
Wasn't Peacock fun last night?
You're right. It's not a game anymore where an athlete can just get a free education. The Coaches and ADs don't have as much control over the players as in the past. Their all free agents and expect to be treated as such.
Quote from: Richie on December 21, 2025, 09:03:48 AMI lived the last three years of Dukiet, graduated 1989. This is bad, but this team has talent and hope. Therefore, not as bad as Dukiet, in my view.
Your just a kid, not an elder. An elder is an alum who graduated at least 45-50 years ago and on SS.
Quote from: PointWarrior on December 21, 2025, 09:11:09 AMDukiet years were my college years. That was miserable. What makes this worse is that it appears Shaka has talent but refuses to have coherent rotations or an offense that takes advantage of the talent they have.
Interesting.
Ty.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 21, 2025, 11:51:51 AMYour just a kid, not an elder. An elder is an alum who graduated at least 45-50 years ago and on SS.
I'm even younger than Richie and I'm not an alum of MU. That said considering the first Marquette game I ever watched was in 1978, I do feel somewhat "elderly" compared to many fans. 😀
Where I really truly cemented my fandom was during the Majerus years. Sadly I missed all the great MU teams under McGwire in the '70s as I began casually following them in the '77-'78 season when I was an 8 year old.
This season has been a shocker to me after the very good job Shaka had done the first 4 years. I think even he has to be stunned at how poorly his sophomore thru senior classes has played. Hopefully he figures it out but so far it feels like things seem to be getting worse instead of better.
We have all made mistakes and our team is an embarrassing disgrace but love Marquette Basketball
Vaguely remember George Thompson but have vivid memories of seeing Dean Meminger playing. This is one of the worst Marquette Teams. If not the worst Marquette team but we will see
to be sure ths is the worst team going back to the Dukiet era. There is more hear than meeets the eye I fear. Gold and Ross havre combined for like 10 points in big east play. Gold never grew into a bigger role but the collapse of Ross's game has to indicate something bigger.This whole RGV stuff is clearly a fiction if you look at the seniors and juniors on this team, not much G at all. It is also clear that Shaka doen't have a clue what to do about it and I can't say I blame him. Any parent who ever had a kid who for whatever reason just refused to grow and evolve into what was envisioned for them knows what Shaka is dealing with times 5 or 6 players. I'm sure Shaka will go into the portal if players leae the program because he has lost all his leverage to stay smug and pristine but if you think this problem is because he doesn't know what talent looks like What difference would it make? To me tjhis is a discipline and chemistry issue. Might be time for a new alchemist but it is too soon to tell
As bad as many teams have been in the past, I do not remember teams not even being competitive, this team is that. Losing by 20 or more is the norm it seems
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 21, 2025, 12:52:39 PMAs bad as many teams have been in the past, I do not remember teams not even being competitive, this team is that. Losing by 20 or more is the norm it seems
I figured a few weeks ago it would be a bad season, maybe 20 losses, but was 100% in Shaka's corner. Lately I'm convinced Shaka or the team have simply given up. A drastic collapse like this is usually a sign of some major off the court issue.
It appears they don't practice or prepare for games. It's like Shaka just rolls out the ball.
I wouldn't say I'm an elder, but I remember that 1998-99 team, and they were really bad. Jon Harris, John Polonowski, John Mueller, Bart Miller, and Greg Clausen all on scholarship. Mike Bargen as the second leading scorer. I suppose they had Brian Wardle and Cordell Henry, but that's a lot of dead weight at the end of the bench.
So, this is at least the worst team since then, and that was Deane's worst team (might've been the only one with no KO recruits) and before that you'd probably have to go back to the late 80s. I'm not sure if the current squad - at least the one we've seen the last few games - would beat 98-99 if they squared off, and it's probably not worth thinking about.
What I will say is this is the strangest season I can remember. While the signs of trouble were there in the second half of last year, I don't know that any of us expected this combination of lack of talent, bad coaching, and negativity/drama. It's like Deane times Wojo divided by Buzz.
My father was an MU grad. As a kid, remember watching on TV this team in bubble bee uniforms and players like Gary Brell, Larry McNeil, Bob Lackey. Freshman year at MU was the National Championship. 80's to 90's too busy with studies or working out of state to follow. But picked it back up in 2000s. Can't say I know what is wrong with this team. Must be just a talent discrepancy between us and the competition.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 21, 2025, 11:51:51 AMYour just a kid, not an elder. An elder is an alum who graduated at least 45-50 years ago and on SS.
*You're
Class of 75. Dukiet was bad but at least his name rhymed with Marquette. Since I live is Omaha now my friends certainly were a bit obnoxious yesterday. My wife was Creighton nursing student. This is the worst. The team is clueless. I hate to,say this but since I'm in the at the end of my life cycle I'm half way into the last quarter of the game hoping for overtime. Don't want to waste precious time watching an inferior product.
Quote from: AccredoJoe on December 21, 2025, 01:41:18 PMClass of 75. Dukiet was bad but at least his name rhymed with Marquette. Since I live is Omaha now my friends certainly were a bit obnoxious yesterday. My wife was Creighton nursing student. This is the worst. The team is clueless. I hate to,say this but since I'm in the at the end of my life cycle I'm half way into the last quarter of the game hoping for overtime. Don't want to waste precious time watching an inferior product.
In my mind I had pronouncing it DUE-key-et the whole time. It's Due- Quette..?
Yes - when he was hired the newsletter that went out and a big deal it. He did play the piano at the announcement event as well. Literally went back playing pianos in bars after leaving coaching
Quote from: willie warrior on December 21, 2025, 05:49:23 AMWould have to go back to Ed Hickeys era, maybe his last season. Back in those days we did have Don Kojis who was a stud. But as I recall, his last year was like 5-21. Too lazy to look it up and get a bad memory.
Something definitely needs to have a significant emotional event to get this stuff to change now. Saw the team going downhill last year but did not fathom it would be this bad. The gap is now a chasm and really don't see much to change it. Might as well play the young guys now to let them grow. Probably too late, but bring some of the redshirt out.
Yes the team was 5 and 21 in the 63-64 year and Hickey was given the choice of quitting or being fired. He quit. The year before the made the NIT with a 20-9 record. They had decent teams under Hickey but that last year of his six years was terrible.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 21, 2025, 09:23:15 AMI wouldn't rate this team quite as bad as Dukiet's 88-89 team. Other than Tony Smith, cupboard was really bare. There were no good freshmen and Trevor Powell out of Milwaukee Washington HS was the only sophomore who was anything.
This team and Dukiet's teams are close enough that it doesn't speak highly of either one. I will say the 1980's Tony Smith would make this year's team MUCH better.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 21, 2025, 01:55:29 PMIn my mind I had pronouncing it DUE-key-et the whole time. It's Due- Quette..?
Yes. I is silent.
As one who has followed the program as a student, grad and ardent fan and supporter since the late 50s, I find this to be a tough season to absorb especially since there are still 19 games remaining including the BET. The Dukiet years have been the hardest to take. While there is disappointment this year there is reason for some optimism that was not there for Dukiet based on the active frosh, the redshirt frosh and incoming recruits as well as potential'26 recruits as well as hopeful development. But still believe there should be some careful use of the portal and rethinking how revenue sharing and external NIL possibilities are used in the recruiting process as well as among current guys on the roster.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on December 21, 2025, 07:41:12 AMAgreed. I don't have any inside info, but I'm really getting a vibe that there is something much bigger going on that is causing this
I can't believe that 1. Shaka has lost his ability to coach, 2. These players don't have even mid-major level of skill and/or 3. That the coaches and players dislike and distrust each so much that they can't work together.
Purely a guess, but I think Shaka is leaving by his choice.
Are you speculating we'll see him during the tournament in different gear a la Buzz. And that the team has known this? I haven't really gotten that vibe. I just know we're really bad.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 21, 2025, 09:30:49 AMI didn't intend to be nitpicking your post. The way it was worded gives the impression to those not around then his tenure at MU was longer than 3 years.
Thanks....sorry for the over-reaction, I am too proud of living through the dark ages of MU BB!
I stated after the Valpo game (a game we should have lost) that we are somewhere around #225-250 in the country. Perhaps we're closer to #300. Now maybe it doesn't matter if we're 225, 250, 275, 300 etc. What does matter is having a bad season or a "rebuild" is entirely different from what we've seen from this MU team on the floor.
When you have a team who isn't capable of competing with a top 100 squad and zero light at the end of the tunnel? Combined with how good we've been and the tremendous history of our program? THIS CAN'T HAPPEN. PERIOD AND END OF DISCUSSION. If MU plays it's A+ game, whatever that might be, we still aren't beating a tournament team this season. And keep in mind the BEast is WAY down this season. In any other year we would have 0.0 chance against any program but DePaul. As it stands we still could easily be 2-18 based on what we've seen.
So to say this is a total mess is a vast understatement. I believe we must have a very clear idea where we are going moving forward by the end of March. Can you lift a redshirt now? I understand Shaka isn't going to say that certain players won't be back but we have to have some indication that we will be looking for immediate proven talent. We went from having two absolutely F4 potential MU teams to this total debacle with zero hope. It's unprecedented in 2 years. We must make drastic and immediate changes to deal with this train wreck. It can't wait until the end of '26-27.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 21, 2025, 01:30:26 PM*You're
Well the way the season is going you got nothing better to do than to check an old timer's grammar. Hope the the mods are paying you well as my Scoop membership just doubled. Come to think of it didn't Scoop have a spell checker at some point?
I am sure no one misunderstood my post. Then again maybe I should start a bad grammar and spelling thread just to keep you busy. We know the difference between were/we are/we're but sometimes we are/we're just in a hurry and make typos and don't check if the post is completely correct.
However, thanks for the correction.
Is this a "thing" for you?
Quote from: Biggie Clausen on December 21, 2025, 01:14:36 PMI wouldn't say I'm an elder, but I remember that 1998-99 team, and they were really bad. Jon Harris, John Polonowski, John Mueller, Bart Miller, and Greg Clausen all on scholarship. Mike Bargen as the second leading scorer. I suppose they had Brian Wardle and Cordell Henry, but that's a lot of dead weight at the end of the bench.
So, this is at least the worst team since then, and that was Deane's worst team (might've been the only one with no KO recruits) and before that you'd probably have to go back to the late 80s. I'm not sure if the current squad - at least the one we've seen the last few games - would beat 98-99 if they squared off, and it's probably not worth thinking about.
What I will say is this is the strangest season I can remember. While the signs of trouble were there in the second half of last year, I don't know that any of us expected this combination of lack of talent, bad coaching, and negativity/drama. It's like Deane times Wojo divided by Buzz.
'98-99 was 111 on kenpom (abominable). This team is currently 117, and that's with a preseason #47 still baked into some of the #s. I think it's safe to say this team is worse 😭😭😭
When Al arrived from Belmont Abbey we went nuts. Who? Where? Why?
Initially it was a disaster, he fought with everyone. Then it started to work. He got his guys from the city, he installed his culture, he turned Marquette into Marquette.
So it's time to reload, no problem. I look forward to our first win and first upset victory. This team will test out loyalty.
Quote from: Biggie Clausen on December 21, 2025, 01:14:36 PMI wouldn't say I'm an elder, but I remember that 1998-99 team, and they were really bad. Jon Harris, John Polonowski, John Mueller, Bart Miller, and Greg Clausen all on scholarship. Mike Bargen as the second leading scorer. I suppose they had Brian Wardle and Cordell Henry, but that's a lot of dead weight at the end of the bench.
So, this is at least the worst team since then, and that was Deane's worst team (might've been the only one with no KO recruits) and before that you'd probably have to go back to the late 80s. I'm not sure if the current squad - at least the one we've seen the last few games - would beat 98-99 if they squared off, and it's probably not worth thinking about.
What I will say is this is the strangest season I can remember. While the signs of trouble were there in the second half of last year, I don't know that any of us expected this combination of lack of talent, bad coaching, and negativity/drama. It's like Deane times Wojo divided by Buzz.
Deane x's Wojo / Buzz... + Dukiet. it's the new math 🤣
Quote from: MUEng92 on December 21, 2025, 02:25:29 PMThis team and Dukiet's teams are close enough that it doesn't speak highly of either one. I will say the 1980's Tony Smith would make this year's team MUCH better.
Current day Tony Smith would make this team better.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 21, 2025, 11:33:37 AMYou're right. It's not a game anymore where an athlete can just get a free education. The Coaches and ADs don't have as much control over the players as in the past. Their all free agents and expect to be treated as such.
*They're
Quote from: Biggie Clausen on December 21, 2025, 01:14:36 PMI wouldn't say I'm an elder, but I remember that 1998-99 team, and they were really bad. Jon Harris, John Polonowski, John Mueller, Bart Miller, and Greg Clausen all on scholarship. Mike Bargen as the second leading scorer. I suppose they had Brian Wardle and Cordell Henry, but that's a lot of dead weight at the end of the bench.
Mueller was a walk-on (at least he came in as a one). Harris was a freshman that year and was a grinder and leader during his career (2-year captain). We could use a Jon Harris type on this year's team.
I don't know if this season is worse than Dukiet's worst years, but the program is in a bazillion times better shape than it was back then.
The Dukiet era was the nadir of a pattern of accelerating decline from Raymonds to Majerus to Dukiet. Things seemed hopeless, lots of folks wondered if the powers-that-be had given up on Marquette being a basketball school, and it took KO 4 years to right the ship.
We were a 2-seed two years ago and an NCAAT team 9 months ago, so it's not part of a generation of decline (as was the case in the late 80s). MU leadership has seen exactly how energized the whole university gets when our basketball program is successful. And the current college sports environment makes it possible to rebuild quickly if Shaka (or his replacement) is so inclined.
So the situations are not at all comparable IMHO.
But yes, our team is really bad this season, from the head coach down to the last player on the active roster.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 21, 2025, 05:01:35 PMMueller was a walk-on (at least he came in as a one). Harris was a freshman that year and was a grinder and leader during his career (2-year captain). We could use a Jon Harris type on this year's team.
Good call on Mueller - I think he might've been given a scholarship eventually, but you're right that he came in as a walk-on. I was hesitant to list Harris but looked at his career numbers and they were not good. I do remember him crying and having to be consoled after MU lost to Tulsa in the first round of the tournament, ending his career. You could tell how much playing at MU meant to him. That seems like such a long time ago.
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2025, 06:19:59 PMWe were a 2-seed two years ago and an NCAAT team 9 months ago, so it's not part of a generation of decline (as was the case in the late 80s). MU leadership has seen exactly how energized the whole university gets when our basketball program is successful. And the current college sports environment makes it possible to rebuild quickly if Shaka (or his replacement) is so inclined.
Do you think we see Shaka on the MU sidelines for 2026-2027, 82?
Quote from: onepost on December 21, 2025, 08:38:40 PMDo you think we see Shaka on the MU sidelines for 2026-2027, 82?
It would be nothing more than a guess, but I'd guess yes. Nothing would surprise me at this point, though.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 21, 2025, 03:24:41 PMI stated after the Valpo game (a game we should have lost) that we are somewhere around #225-250 in the country. Perhaps we're closer to #300.
First, you were wrong then and are even more wrong now. We've played 5 teams that are sub-200 & gone 5-0 in those games by an average margin of 20.4 ppg.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 21, 2025, 03:24:41 PMNow maybe it doesn't matter if we're 225, 250, 275, 300 etc...When you have a team who isn't capable of competing with a top 100 squad and zero light at the end of the tunnel?
This, however, is correct. We're probably in the 125-175 area nationally. Good enough to soundly beat teams of lesser talent, good enough to compete but lose against top-50 to 100 teams, and bad enough to get drubbed by anyone better.
But in the Big East, whether we're #150 (feels about right) or #300 (a foolish assertion but let's go with it) that simply isn't good enough to compete in a league of mostly top-100 teams.
While you're being hyperbolic with your ranking takes, what is true is that we're a bottom-2 team in this league and there's no clear evidence we're ahead of DePaul. That is simply unacceptable at a program with Marquette's history & resources.
Nobody mentions the admission standards.
Why did Buzz leave?
He couldn't recruit.
Why did Al hang it up?
He said, because he couldn't recruit.
The Big East was set up to compete with the Ivy League. So here we are, enjoy.
The bar was set at mid-major with a TV contract.
Now with pay-per-view the world has changed again.
I'm glad I'getting SS, it will help pay for all my streaming subscriptions.
What does being old give me?
Experience and strategic thinking.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2025, 07:04:20 AMFirst, you were wrong then and are even more wrong now. We've played 5 teams that are sub-200 & gone 5-0 in those games by an average margin of 20.4 ppg.
This, however, is correct. We're probably in the 125-175 area nationally. Good enough to soundly beat teams of lesser talent, good enough to compete but lose against top-50 to 100 teams, and bad enough to get drubbed by anyone better.
But in the Big East, whether we're #150 (feels about right) or #300 (a foolish assertion but let's go with it) that simply isn't good enough to compete in a league of mostly top-100 teams.
While you're being hyperbolic with your ranking takes, what is true is that we're a bottom-2 team in this league and there's no clear evidence we're ahead of DePaul. That is simply unacceptable at a program with Marquette's history & resources.
Fair points Brew. But have you considered we are far worse right now than when we played these total cupcakes?? And that we essentially lost to Valpo at home? Your last sentence is 100% indisputably accurate. We simply can't have this at MU.
Brew,
Albany, Southern, Little Rock, and Central Michigan are beyond an abomination. I honestly don't care what the NET, Pomeroy, or the computers think. We have one win, at home, in overtime, vs Valpo, when their best player got injured. I guess there are a lot of bad teams but there's no way we're top #200.
Were gonna finish 150th because all the good teams in our conference are gonna play some walkons againist us and Michael Phillips is gonna cook them.
I just checked. We're #183 in the NET. Our best win was against #236 Valpo. And again, we lose that contest if their best player doesn't get hurt. The other 4 wins we have are against teams #287 or worse. I repeat, #287 or worse. So yes, we're actually that bad.
Quote from: hawk on December 21, 2025, 12:49:55 PM.This whole RGV stuff is clearly a fiction if you look at the seniors and juniors on this team, not much G at all.
Not much V either.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 22, 2025, 12:30:22 PMwe essentially lost to Valpo at home
We didn't.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 22, 2025, 12:37:15 PMI honestly don't care what the NET, Pomeroy, or the computers think. I guess there are a lot of bad teams but there's no way we're top #200.
You honestly don't care for facts.
It's easy to rip everything going on with Marquette basketball. You need not make sh!t up, too.
Those Dukiet teams were hard to watch. 1988 was particulary ugly. But they won 10.
Coincidence they moved out of the Arena at year's end?
I don't think the current fanbase realizes how unenjoyable they were to watch.
included losses:
to Iona (16-loss team) by 15.
to Fordham (15-loss team) by 20.
Creighton (16-loss team) by 14 at home
to the Irish. twice. Once by 18, the second time by 22.
lost 9 of 10 in the middle of the season, and fittingly closed out on a 6 game losing streak.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2025, 02:07:43 PMWe didn't.
You honestly don't care for facts.
It's easy to rip everything going on with Marquette basketball. You need not make sh!t up, too.
It's spiritually correct though. #183 NET. Vegas would probably handicap #183 playing #200 on a neutral court as #183 -1
It's a distinction without a difference. We are abysmal!
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 21, 2025, 04:38:23 AM87-88 and 88-89 teams were horrendous. They would lose to 5 random guys at the rec center. More than once I was one of the 5 random guys. This team is MUCH better than those days.
This is what I was going to say. Right on. I watched them get destroyed by Iona and Fordham one of those seasons.
Some more context using most recent NET ratings
Of 79 power conference teams (ACC, B12, B10, SEC, Big East), we rank #77, just barely ahead of Georgia Tech (#187) and Rutgers (#195). DePaul is 74th, all the way up at #150.
Just for fun I checked 2 power conference cast-offs (Oregon St. and Washington St.): WSU #167, OSU #175.
This is who we comp to. Not even close to the the realm of acceptable on any level. I will grant Shaka one off-season to make philosophical changes that result in major immediate improvement in '26-'27. Bubble team to the wire will barely grant him another year from me by the skin of his teeth. But that is it. This needs to be a massive wake-up call. Will Shaka heed it?
Quote from: Silkk the Shaka on December 22, 2025, 02:53:15 PMSome more context using most recent NET ratings
Of 79 power conference teams (ACC, B12, B10, SEC, Big East), we rank #77, just barely ahead of Georgia Tech (#187) and Rutgers (#195). DePaul is 74th, all the way up at #150.
Just for fun I checked 2 power conference cast-offs (Oregon St. and Washington St.): WSU #167, OSU #175.
This is who we comp to. Not even close to the the realm of acceptable on any level. I will grant Shaka one off-season to make philosophical changes that result in major immediate improvement in '26-'27. Bubble team to the wire will barely grant him another year from me by the skin of his teeth. But that is it. This needs to be a massive wake-up call. Will Shaka heed it?
I know nothing about our administration / AD situation. Can someone more informed give insight on how confident we feel about our current administration? If god forbid be have another year like this next year, do we feel good about leadership being able to right the ship?
Quote from: Silkk the Shaka on December 22, 2025, 02:53:15 PMSome more context using most recent NET ratings
Of 79 power conference teams (ACC, B12, B10, SEC, Big East), we rank #77, just barely ahead of Georgia Tech (#187) and Rutgers (#195). DePaul is 74th, all the way up at #150.
Just for fun I checked 2 power conference cast-offs (Oregon St. and Washington St.): WSU #167, OSU #175.
This is who we comp to. Not even close to the the realm of acceptable on any level. I will grant Shaka one off-season to make philosophical changes that result in major immediate improvement in '26-'27. Bubble team to the wire will barely grant him another year from me by the skin of his teeth. But that is it. This needs to be a massive wake-up call. Will Shaka heed it?
Will the admin heed it?
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on December 22, 2025, 02:22:31 PMThose Dukiet teams were hard to watch. 1988 was particulary ugly. But they won 10.
Coincidence they moved out of the Arena at year's end?
I don't think the current fanbase realizes how unenjoyable they were to watch.
included losses:
to Iona (16-loss team) by 15.
to Fordham (15-loss team) by 20.
Creighton (16-loss team) by 14 at home
to the Irish. twice. Once by 18, the second time by 22.
lost 9 of 10 in the middle of the season, and fittingly closed out on a 6 game losing streak.
Those were long walks back to campus from the MECCA.
Good thing there was lots of beer involved.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on December 22, 2025, 02:22:31 PMThose Dukiet teams were hard to watch. 1988 was particulary ugly. But they won 10.
Coincidence they moved out of the Arena at year's end?
I don't think the current fanbase realizes how unenjoyable they were to watch.
included losses:
to Iona (16-loss team) by 15.
to Fordham (15-loss team) by 20.
Creighton (16-loss team) by 14 at home
to the Irish. twice. Once by 18, the second time by 22.
lost 9 of 10 in the middle of the season, and fittingly closed out on a 6 game losing streak.
We started that year with 11 scholarship players, 7 freshmen
- Tony Reeder was injured in a car accident after 8 games and missed the rest of the season
- Joe Nethen was academically ineligible after the break, missing the final 16 games.
Much of that 10-win 1988 season was played with 9 scholarship players, 6 of them freshmen. Yes, they were terrible, but at least they had an excuse.
Where did Pops Sims factor in?
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2025, 07:38:59 PMWhere did Pops Sims factor in?
He was in the doghouse most of the year, if I recall correctly over an incident with his girlfriend.
Yes, he was.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2025, 02:07:43 PMWe didn't.
You honestly don't care for facts.
It's easy to rip everything going on with Marquette basketball. You need not make sh!t up, too.
I listed the NET numbers of the teams we've beaten. Those are facts and they're extremely distressing.
Quote from: Silkk the Shaka on December 22, 2025, 02:53:15 PMSome more context using most recent NET ratings
Of 79 power conference teams (ACC, B12, B10, SEC, Big East), we rank #77, just barely ahead of Georgia Tech (#187) and Rutgers (#195). DePaul is 74th, all the way up at #150.
Just for fun I checked 2 power conference cast-offs (Oregon St. and Washington St.): WSU #167, OSU #175.
This is who we comp to. Not even close to the the realm of acceptable on any level. I will grant Shaka one off-season to make philosophical changes that result in major immediate improvement in '26-'27. Bubble team to the wire will barely grant him another year from me by the skin of his teeth. But that is it. This needs to be a massive wake-up call. Will Shaka heed it?
Ty, StS.
This is beyond astonishing and totally inexcusable.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 22, 2025, 08:57:24 PMI listed the NET numbers of the teams we've beaten. Those are facts and they're extremely distressing.
Ok Muggs.
The main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
Quote from: vogue65 on December 22, 2025, 11:16:03 AMNobody mentions the admission standards.
Why did Buzz leave?
He couldn't recruit.
Why did Al hang it up?
He said, because he couldn't recruit.
The Big East was set up to compete with the Ivy League. So here we are, enjoy.
You forgot to put this in teal or include /s at the end.
Admissions standards? MU will admit nearly any hoops recruit who meets NCAA qualifier standards and shows the ability to remain eligible and graduate, as well as stay out of trouble. Buzz had a bunch of guys who were barely eligible every year and were involved in a couple of very embarrassing off-court incidents. He also left because he wasn't willing to see how the new Big East would be. It turns out he was wrong about it.
Why did Al hang it up? Dude, that was 48 years ago. It has no bearing on anything today.
The Big East is set up to be the Ivy League? If that were the case, A) DePaul, Xavier, Seton Hall, and St. John's wouldn't have been included, and B) let me know when the Ivy League produces Men's Basketball four national champions in ten years
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
Well, this is ... something.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 22, 2025, 11:16:03 AMNobody mentions the admission standards.
Why did Buzz leave?
He couldn't recruit.
Why did Al hang it up?
He said, because he couldn't recruit.
The Big East was set up to compete with the Ivy League. So here we are, enjoy.
The bar was set at mid-major with a TV contract.
Now with pay-per-view the world has changed again.
I'm glad I'getting SS, it will help pay for all my streaming subscriptions.
What does being old give me?
Experience and strategic thinking.
Wut???
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
WTF, you have no idea
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
Wow
Quote from: Spencer Pratt on December 22, 2025, 03:01:45 PMI know nothing about our administration / AD situation. Can someone more informed give insight on how confident we feel about our current administration? If god forbid be have another year like this next year, do we feel good about leadership being able to right the ship?
We'll find out at the end of the season.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2025, 11:16:49 AMWell, this is ... something.
Yeah, I agree. This is something.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
WarriorFan, please do tell us what makes the current MU president a DEI hire?
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 23, 2025, 10:11:25 AMThe main parallel between now and the Dukiet years is weak administration. Where Dr. Lovell made it clear that top tier hoops was a priority, there has been no such vision or strategy from the DEI dumbo currently in charge. (in fact, no vision or strategy on anything at all). Is Mr. Kim Ah DEI in a position to sit down with Shaka and say - hey, you need to do things differently because the school depends on MU hoops being in the top 25? Nah.
In that case, a strong AD would be the one to do so. In MU case, it seems the coach selected the AD rather than the AD selecting the coach... so again - he's not the one.
What would remain as the only possible input is the input of some major contributors -if they can get through the above two filters - but contributors have a history of not having unified messaging. And that would be enough to make a coach just leave rather than just do things a bit differently and get back to winning.
I fear MU basketball doesn't get fixed until there is a real University President and a very strong AD.
(note well that Raynor was not historically weak, but by late 80's the times had passed him and he was no longer effective - he was not even present enough to be effective)
Wild was MU's best pro-hoops President, imo. Lovell definitely understood the importance of hoops in the overall big picture, too. I think Lovell grew into it...wasn't a hoops junkie initially...but I think he became so. Current guy? I have no idea, but hopefully so. It would be difficult to stroll thru The Al and not 'get it'.