MUScoop

Will he ever turn into a significant contributor? Some folks on here thought I was a heretic for saying he had no business being on this roster last year.

I think Hamilton takes the cake for all time most hated player on this board. I can't stand the dude being on the team either but damn.

I don't understand polls without an Arby's option.

No. If he transferred to a low major, still no.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 17, 2025, 09:41:46 PMI don't understand polls without an Arby's option.

corrected

I miss the days when Joplin was the player everyone complained about most.

Keep in mind, none of this is on Caedin.

Quote from: Johnny B on December 17, 2025, 09:40:28 PMI think Hamilton takes the cake for all time most hated player on this board. I can't stand the dude being on the team either but damn.

I don't hate Hamilton, it's not his fault he should be playing in the Southland or Summit League but instead Shaka is trying to make some kind of statement starting him on a Big East team

Quote from: Pakuni on December 17, 2025, 09:45:30 PMKeep in mind, none of this is on Caedin.

Agree - any chance he is shaka's nephew? Has there been a 23 and me ran?

It is really bizarre that he's on the team. Shaka is going to lose credibility with the team by playing him.

Every time Caedin screws up, Shaka takes minutes away from Lowery.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on December 17, 2025, 09:51:28 PMIt is really bizarre that he's on the team. Shaka is going to lose credibility with the team by playing him.

I wonder if the players have these conversations. Like "wtf is player xyz doing here" or what's up with the recruiting" etc

Quote from: Johnny B on December 17, 2025, 09:55:21 PMI wonder if the players have these conversations. Like "wtf is player xyz doing here" or what's up with the recruiting" etc

You have to think so. Those guys know hoops better than us.

Quote from: Johnny B on December 17, 2025, 09:55:21 PMI wonder if the players have these conversations. Like "wtf is player xyz doing here" or what's up with the recruiting" etc

What player on this team has the right to ask that question? 

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 17, 2025, 09:47:26 PMI don't hate Hamilton, it's not his fault he should be playing in the Southland or Summit League but instead Shaka is trying to make some kind of statement starting him on a Big East team

A month ago, I complemented Hamilton for what he has done.  He was a zero rated high school recruit, who worked his way to a scholarship on a BE Major team. He redshirted and learned for two years and became a starter on that major BE team.  But, it's not his fault he is put in this position, because he should be playing maybe four minutes a game as a backup, to a real, more capable BE center, one that Shaka never signed.

Agree with poster who asked does Caedin have something on Shaka

Caedin does a lot of the little things right. Unfortunately, he does none of the big stuff even decently.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 17, 2025, 09:45:30 PMKeep in mind, none of this is on Caedin.

This. Management of expectations has never been the strongest for this staff, but it's now a full on liability.  At this rate, I'm not even sure what we are doing anymore. The kids not a Big East level player, no matter how much energy during practice or on the sidelines he shows.

Quote from: nyg on December 17, 2025, 10:10:05 PMA month ago, I complemented Hamilton for what he has done.  He was a zero rated high school recruit, who worked his way to a scholarship on a BE Major team. He redshirted and learned for two years and became a starter on that major BE team.  But, it's not his fault he is put in this position, because he should be playing maybe four minutes a game as a backup, to a real, more capable BE center, one that Shaka never signed.

Maybe you should have complimented him instead.

I think Shaka gambled on recruiting him. Unfortunately, it's a swing and a miss.

The thing is, I saw on the floor last night that Shaka is rewarding those working the hardest in practice.  You saw DO finally have it pay off.  You saw Royce have another decent game offensively.   With regards to Caedin, you can see the footwork.  You can see the effort.   You can see everything except the payoff. 

With regards to the rest of the team, you see them getting the shots they want.  And then thinking, and guiding, and hitching. 

Much like the defensive rotations.  Still not there.  Still thinking instead of doing. 

Sigh. 

It would be nice to see that be the new normal for DO. 

I will say, Cardin is always up on the bench encouraging the guys and super into it. He looks like a great teammate. He might have a future as a coach when his playing days are over.

Quote from: K1 Lover on December 17, 2025, 09:44:53 PMI miss the days when Joplin was the player everyone complained about most.

Were you around for Derrick Wilson?

Quote from: K1 Lover on December 17, 2025, 09:44:53 PMI miss the days when Joplin was the player everyone complained about most.

We only complained about Jolpin.

Caedin has an intimidating looking glare.

Quote from: cheebs09 on December 18, 2025, 06:27:27 AMI will say, Cardin is always up on the bench encouraging the guys and super into it. He looks like a great teammate. He might have a future as a coach when his playing days are over.

Nobody would complain if he were used as this team's Jack Haley.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 18, 2025, 07:44:37 AMWere you around for Derrick Wilson?

Haha, I came here to say this. The funny thing is: It's not the fault of the player. There's no way either should have started or getting the type of minutes they have. Unfair to the player.

People are to focused on starting.  Starting no matta. He's 7th in mpg, he's far from the biggest problem we have. Would I like for us to have the quality of players so that his current 19 mpg drops? Sure, but where are those minutes going to go? Hopefully Owens can build upon last night and take some of them, but it's clear that this year Hamilton is going to be a part of the rotation.

We are #1, the best, the first, the most underdog team to root for.  Some team has to aspire to be a Cinderella team.  We fit the bill.  Half the country roots for Marquette every time we take the floor. 

One of these days Alice, one of these days.
We will make headlines, biggest upset of the year is just around the corner.

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2025, 10:00:17 AMPeople are to focused on starting.  Starting no matta. He's 7th in mpg, he's far from the biggest problem we have. Would I like for us to have the quality of players so that his current 19 mpg drops? Sure, but where are those minutes going to go? Hopefully Owens can build upon last night and take some of them, but it's clear that this year Hamilton is going to be a part of the rotation.

I think Hamilton being "far from the biggest problem" is pretty debatable. He's certainly a big problem.
But even if true, the reason he's taking so much heat is because he's emblematic of the glaring failure of RGV this year. A third-year player who still looks lost out on the court, has developed no discernible skills (being large enough to snag a few rebounds isn't a skill) and is forced into the starting lineup/rotation because of the lack of recruiting/development around him.
It's unfair to him on a personal level, but it is what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rB9ZcNAfnI&t=3s

Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2025, 10:19:50 AMI think Hamilton being "far from the biggest problem" is pretty debatable. He's certainly a big problem.
But even if true, the reason he's taking so much heat is because he's emblematic of the glaring failure of RGV this year. A third-year player who still looks lost out on the court, has developed no discernible skills (being large enough to snag a few rebounds isn't a skill) and is forced into the starting lineup/rotation because of the lack of recruiting/development around him.
It's unfair to him on a personal level, but it is what it is.

Sure, overall, he's a prime target of RGV not working this year (although certainly not the only one), but I could list quite a few individual specific things that are a bigger problem than our 7th leading mpg player that only had a 15% usage rate.

Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2025, 06:26:37 AMThe thing is, I saw on the floor last night that Shaka is rewarding those working the hardest in practice.  You saw DO finally have it pay off.  You saw Royce have another decent game offensively.   With regards to Caedin, you can see the footwork.  You can see the effort.   You can see everything except the payoff. 

With regards to the rest of the team, you see them getting the shots they want.  And then thinking, and guiding, and hitching. 

Much like the defensive rotations.  Still not there.  Still thinking instead of doing. 

Sigh. 

It would be nice to see that be the new normal for DO. 

Agree on a lot of this.

The chemistry is off. There's not really a leader either on the floor. Last year there were 3 guys doing it. This year, none.

Quote from: Markusquette on December 18, 2025, 10:25:14 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rB9ZcNAfnI&t=3s

Those poor 4 subscribers

Quote from: panda on December 18, 2025, 11:25:32 AMThose poor 4 subscribers

This is what Shaka briefed Clark with upon his arrival to the Al

Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 18, 2025, 07:44:37 AMWere you around for Derrick Wilson?

I was not.

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2025, 10:29:54 AMSure, overall, he's a prime target of RGV not working this year (although certainly not the only one), but I could list quite a few individual specific things that are a bigger problem than our 7th leading mpg player that only had a 15% usage rate.

A lot of eye test stuff here because I dont love defensive metrics/plus minus etc. His offensive numbers you referenced are poor but certainly not the reason for our struggles. However, defensively he is an absolute mess. He has no clue where he is on the floor most of the time. There were several times last night where he was on the weak side and had no sense to shift over to stop the dribble drive and it resulted in a wide open lay up.

Buzz did a good job of isolating him on the perimeter multiple times and he looked absolutely horrible in a 1v1 situation giving up an easy dribble penetration. 

Again, very subjective, but it seems like we give up lots of runs with him on the floor because of his poor court sense.

Lots of issues on this team, but his defense is top for me. We can definitely run a smaller line up without him on the floor. There are options to not play him, but Shaka is just being crazy stubborn with him for some reason.

Quote from: K1 Lover on December 18, 2025, 11:32:28 AMI was not.

Joplin never had it as bad as Derrick Wilson did around here.

Quote from: panda on December 18, 2025, 11:25:32 AMThose poor 4 subscribers

Dude can't wear a mic or just record the audio separately? Can't hear a damn thing he's saying

Quote from: BM1090 on December 17, 2025, 11:22:21 PMCaedin does a lot of the little things right. Unfortunately, he does none of the big stuff even decently.

Actually, not sure what you mean by little things, but is too slow and lacking in basketball instincts to be an adequate help defender. At the other end, ball sticks in his hands as offense grinds to a halt. Also, telegraphs passes and turns it over too often. Seems like a nice guy in interviews and interactions with teammates and coaches, so I can't imagine him being most "hated" player on this board. He does one big thing OK: rebounds, though not nearly as well as Joshua Clark. Don't know whether Clark ready to play yet but I like his ceiling far better.

Quote from: Johnny B on December 17, 2025, 09:40:28 PMI think Hamilton takes the cake for all time most hated player on this board. I can't stand the dude being on the team either but damn.

This team has many issues besides Hamilton. People signaling him out are not objective.

Please don't compare Hamilton to Derrick Wilson. Derrick was at least a mid-major level player.

That's TBT-Champion Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: Tha Hound on December 18, 2025, 01:05:56 PMPlease don't compare Hamilton to Derrick Wilson. Derrick was at least a mid-major level player.

I didn't.  Just said that if people around here thought the hate for Joplin was bad, they missed the D-Wilson hate... which was far far worse.

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2025, 10:00:17 AMPeople are to focused on starting.  Starting no matta. He's 7th in mpg, he's far from the biggest problem we have. Would I like for us to have the quality of players so that his current 19 mpg drops? Sure, but where are those minutes going to go? Hopefully Owens can build upon last night and take some of them, but it's clear that this year Hamilton is going to be a part of the rotation.

Overall, the biggest problem with this team is the lack of 'growth' on the roster; however, he's the only one whose minutes don't reflect that.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 18, 2025, 12:53:08 PMThis team has many issues besides Hamilton. People signaling him out are not objective.

No one is signaling him out they're pretty much rightfully calling out almost everybody. Sure Hamilton gets more than others cause he starts for some unimaginable reason and is the clearest "not good enough for this level" guy in the rotation by far

Norman, Lowery, Amadou, Hamilton: what an absolutely abysmal recruiting class that has turned out to be. Can't whiff that bad on a four person class.

To win the tipoff.

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on December 18, 2025, 01:29:30 PMOverall, the biggest problem with this team is the lack of 'growth' on the roster; however, he's the only one whose minutes don't reflect that.

200 minutes have to come from somewhere.  Despite starting, he was 7th in minutes last night with the only rotation player getting less being AS.  That was also with no Zaide who likely would have gotten more minutes than him had he not been a DNPCD. CH has played more than 21 minutes in a grand total of 1 regulation length game. It's not like when Derrick was averaging 33 mpg.

This team is truly a disappointment to this point in the season.  They may disappoint for the entire year but I have to agree with Tower, if you watch the team you can see the work, they are trying hard to be better.  I think they are becoming but they are not yet there.  Learning is a strange thing,it is improvement over time and trials but there is know way to know how much time or how many trials.  I had hoped for much more out of this team and I hope that by the end of the year they learn how not to try but simply to do.  Imagine a game where every player that uyou have seen play this year all had solid games at the same time, that is what this team can be but is not yet. 

The latest Marquette Alumni Magazine on Shaka's approach, mentions Hamilton's howling every day at the end of practice.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 18, 2025, 03:19:10 PMThe latest Marquette Alumni Magazine on Shaka's approach, mentions Hamilton's howling every day at the end of practice.

At every one of the men's basketball team's workout sessions this summer, the scene played out the same way.

After warm-up stretches or before a high-intensity drill, 15 teammates would amass like a swarm of hornets around big man Caedin Hamilton. As they jostled and let out war whoops, Hamilton would move within inches of an assistant coach or even a visitor he'd never met before. He'd throw back his arms, thrust out his chest, bare his teeth and roar, "I'm the biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East," before stomping off.

If your impressions of Hamilton are still stuck on him as an unassuming, round-shouldered first-year redshirt or the more chiseled but raw bench sub from last year, it's time for an update based on the team experience Head Coach Shaka Smart has dubbed the Summer of Explosive Growth.

https://issuu.com/marquetteu/docs/marquette_magazine_fall_2025/25?ff

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2025, 01:50:18 PM200 minutes have to come from somewhere.  Despite starting, he was 7th in minutes last night with the only rotation player getting less being AS.  That was also with no Zaide who likely would have gotten more minutes than him had he not been a DNPCD. CH has played more than 21 minutes in a grand total of 1 regulation length game. It's not like when Derrick was averaging 33 mpg.

"caedin's starts but that doesn't matter. he plays a lot but we have to play 200 minutes!".

This is dumb effin sh1t.  Let's stop effin around and try to win bball games. This is insanity.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 18, 2025, 03:42:16 PM"caedin's starts but that doesn't matter. he plays a lot but we have to play 200 minutes!".

This is dumb effin sh1t.  Let's stop effin around and try to win bball games. This is insanity.

How would you have adjusted the rotation last night? You clearly want CH to get fewer minutes, who gets more?

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2025, 03:46:39 PMHow would you have adjusted the rotation last night? You clearly want CH to get fewer minutes, who gets more?

AS, Zaide, Ben early. WTF?

Not to mention a million other weird fukin pairings for odd amounts of time. I feel like we're on a hidden f'n camera show.

Quote from: CountryRoads on December 18, 2025, 03:38:44 PMAt every one of the men's basketball team's workout sessions this summer, the scene played out the same way.

After warm-up stretches or before a high-intensity drill, 15 teammates would amass like a swarm of hornets around big man Caedin Hamilton. As they jostled and let out war whoops, Hamilton would move within inches of an assistant coach or even a visitor he'd never met before. He'd throw back his arms, thrust out his chest, bare his teeth and roar, "I'm the biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East," before stomping off.

If your impressions of Hamilton are still stuck on him as an unassuming, round-shouldered first-year redshirt or the more chiseled but raw bench sub from last year, it's time for an update based on the team experience Head Coach Shaka Smart has dubbed the Summer of Explosive Growth.

https://issuu.com/marquetteu/docs/marquette_magazine_fall_2025/25?ff

My goodness. I thought that was an AI or Rico type of joke, but that's real.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 18, 2025, 03:49:35 PMAS, Zaide, Ben early. WTF?

Not to mention a million other weird fukin pairings for odd amounts of time. I feel like we're on a hidden f'n camera show.

Any more detail, or just more misspelled venting?

Zaide is clearly being sent a message. He knowns he's in the dog house, lets see how he responds.  Ben played his season average despite not being very good offensively. AS I would have liked to see more of, I think his role was the result of DO playing well.  Given the position difference, I don't think a bump in AS minutes would result in any significant reduction in CH minutes.

Leader by PT against GT.

Ross: 31 minutes.  1 short of his season average despite being awful on the offensive end. I have no problem with it.  He's our best player, you have to bet on him finding a way to get himself going.

NJ: 30 minutes. Tied his most in a regulation length game. Though he played okay.  A little out of control at times, but to be expected of him and he's clearly the future of the back court.

Ben: 27 minutes. Right at his season average despite not starting and disappearing again on the offensive end. 0-9 from our SRs from three, not good enough.

DO: 27 minutes. Career high for Owens. Thought he played his best game in a MU uniform and was rewarded with more minutes.  Continue to play well, continue to get minutes.

Royce: 26 minutes. 1 short of his career high. Think he hedges to hard defending the PnR but that's more on Shaka. If he's doing what's asked and doing it well, he should continue to get big minutes.

Sean: 22 minutes. About where he's been all year.  Every appearance has been between 20-24 minutes, and that's probably about where he should be. If he want's more he has to play better.

Caedin: 17 minutes. Wish he didn't have to get this many but there are 6 players that got more run than he did.

AS: 14 minutes. As I said above, I think this was a result of DO playing well.  Maybe give him a few of Chase's when Chase is struggling as bad as he was.

Tre: 4 minutes.  I know this board isn't about to start asking for more Tre.

MP: 2 minutes.  Missed both his shots.  If he makes both or even one, I could see giving him a bit more and I certainly don't want him to stop shooting as he's one of the few that's hitting, but you miss your first two and are the liability he currently is on D, it's gonna happen.

Who should have gotten more?  Who should have gotten less?

Quote from: CountryRoads on December 18, 2025, 03:38:44 PMAt every one of the men's basketball team's workout sessions this summer, the scene played out the same way.

After warm-up stretches or before a high-intensity drill, 15 teammates would amass like a swarm of hornets around big man Caedin Hamilton. As they jostled and let out war whoops, Hamilton would move within inches of an assistant coach or even a visitor he'd never met before. He'd throw back his arms, thrust out his chest, bare his teeth and roar, "I'm the biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East," before stomping off.

If your impressions of Hamilton are still stuck on him as an unassuming, round-shouldered first-year redshirt or the more chiseled but raw bench sub from last year, it's time for an update based on the team experience Head Coach Shaka Smart has dubbed the Summer of Explosive Growth.

https://issuu.com/marquetteu/docs/marquette_magazine_fall_2025/25?ff

The biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East made one field goal last night.

Quote from: CountryRoads on December 18, 2025, 03:38:44 PMAt every one of the men's basketball team's workout sessions this summer, the scene played out the same way.

After warm-up stretches or before a high-intensity drill, 15 teammates would amass like a swarm of hornets around big man Caedin Hamilton. As they jostled and let out war whoops, Hamilton would move within inches of an assistant coach or even a visitor he'd never met before. He'd throw back his arms, thrust out his chest, bare his teeth and roar, "I'm the biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East," before stomping off.

If your impressions of Hamilton are still stuck on him as an unassuming, round-shouldered first-year redshirt or the more chiseled but raw bench sub from last year, it's time for an update based on the team experience Head Coach Shaka Smart has dubbed the Summer of Explosive Growth.

https://issuu.com/marquetteu/docs/marquette_magazine_fall_2025/25?ff

Awesome post.

Agree Have seen practices and seen scrimmages and have seen the same. I love Caedin as a person. After these practices and scrimmages I see Caedin with his head up smiling. But I see Josh Clark with his head down and not smiling. I wish Shaka would help both be smiling and head up. I wish they both would be head up and smiling. Hopefully am wrong but this is what was observed.

Get help, DJNo.

Quote from: K1 Lover on December 18, 2025, 04:05:59 PMThe biggest, baddest, toughest (bleep) in the Big East made one field goal last night.

Yes I love Caedin as a person. As a player am not sure

Vent away then. That's what the internet is for.  Let me know when you want to have an actual discussion.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 18, 2025, 03:19:10 PMThe latest Marquette Alumni Magazine on Shaka's approach, mentions Hamilton's howling every day at the end of practice.

That's great, he's an awesome teammate and brings the enthusiasm to practice and on the bench. The same was said about Dwaine Streater; that's the role Hamilton should have. I've viewed Cadin's ceiling as a poor man's Jamil Lott or Dwight Burke, now it's Streater two.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 18, 2025, 04:14:00 PMThat's great, he's an awesome teammate and brings the enthusiasm to practice and on the bench. The same was said about Dwaine Streater; that's the role Hamilton should have. I've viewed Cadin's ceiling as a poor man's Jamil Lott or Dwight Burke, now it's Streater two.

I noticed at least twice after an And One last night that Caedin was the first guy they turned to and he was enthusiastically cheering them on. He's a great teammate, but out of his depth.

Man, that whole article is weak sauce, two scoops of slurpery with John Fanta's "one of one" quote being the cherry on top.  I also like how it conveniently fails to mention the fact that Kolek was a portal guy, instead saying he was "already invested in the program."  Very easy to see how we got here, with Shaka running an insular, cult-like program where not a single person involved thought that RGV wasn't the greatest idea in history.

Quote from: cheebs09 on December 18, 2025, 03:52:24 PMMy goodness. I thought that was an AI or Rico type of joke, but that's real.

Who knew the summer of explosive growth would turn into the winter of explosive... well...

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 18, 2025, 04:14:00 PMThat's great, he's an awesome teammate and brings the enthusiasm to practice and on the bench. The same was said about Dwaine Streater; that's the role Hamilton should have. I've viewed Cadin's ceiling as a poor man's Jamil Lott or Dwight Burke, now it's Streater two.

awesome reference. Streater, Lott! We've had some playa's

Quote from: hawk on December 18, 2025, 02:19:25 PMThis team is truly a disappointment to this point in the season.  They may disappoint for the entire year but I have to agree with Tower, if you watch the team you can see the work, they are trying hard to be better.  I think they are becoming but they are not yet there.  Learning is a strange thing,it is improvement over time and trials but there is know way to know how much time or how many trials.  I had hoped for much more out of this team and I hope that by the end of the year they learn how not to try but simply to do.  Imagine a game where every player that uyou have seen play this year all had solid games at the same time, that is what this team can be but is not yet. 

should a program such as Marquette recruit this low caliber of basketball player? Learning 'to do'? Maybe Woj, for example, swung for the fences too often, and a roster can't be full of stars, but the assembly of talent has to be better, and should be expected to be at Marquette.

Shaka, in his post game presser touched on the issue I have noticed with Caedin.  And some of the other missed lay ups from others.   He said they have been trying to get Caedin to just lay the ball in.

CH has come miles.  And he still has miles to go.  He is making it difficult on himself.  He is displaying vastly improved post footwork, getting himself into decent position, and then choosing to throw up banked half hooks over his shoulder.  The toughest shot he could choose from point blank range. 

Explode to the rim.  Create contact.  If you can't dunk it, two hands on the ball as you jump straight toward the box on the glass.   Ejiofor is the current target as the toughest post player in the Big East.  Ejiofor does not have insane skills.  What he does have is the mindset that when he is close to the rim, he is going straight at it and that is the defender's problem.

That is the next step for CH.  That big and strong?  Prove it and make it the defender's problem.

Projecting out to other players, dunk it every chance you get.  Contact is not something to fear.  Your shoulder in the defender's chest, your eyes on the rim.   Referees reward the aggressor. 

Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2025, 06:58:33 AMShaka, in his post game presser touched on the issue I have noticed with Caedin.  And some of the other missed lay ups from others.   He said they have been trying to get Caedin to just lay the ball in.

CH has come miles.  And he still has miles to go.  He is making it difficult on himself.  He is displaying vastly improved post footwork, getting himself into decent position, and then choosing to throw up banked half hooks over his shoulder.  The toughest shot he could choose from point blank range. 

Explode to the rim.  Create contact.  If you can't dunk it, two hands on the ball as you jump straight toward the box on the glass.   Ejiofor is the current target as the toughest post player in the Big East.  Ejiofor does not have insane skills.  What he does have is the mindset that when he is close to the rim, he is going straight at it and that is the defender's problem.

That is the next step for CH.  That big and strong?  Prove it and make it the defender's problem.

Projecting out to other players, dunk it every chance you get.  Contact is not something to fear.  Your shoulder in the defender's chest, your eyes on the rim.   Referees reward the aggressor. 

I'm not really seeing what you're seeing with CH, but for argument's sake ... should MU be giving scholarships, NIL money and other resources to players who, three years into college, come "miles" and are still well below average for a Big East player?

Good for CH on a personal level that he's come miles, but from a team perspective, what benefit is it if those miles still leaves him a negative player on the court? This isn't summer camp where the goal is to just get better, it's competitive, high-level basketball.

You mention Ejiofor as the target, but Ejiofor was an all-conference player in his third year of college. I hope I'm wrong, but I have a hard time imagining CH will be that by year five.

Anyhow, I guess my question is whether in this era of college basketball and with limited funding available, should MU be investing in players who after three years and miles of development still aren't contributing positively to on-court success?
 

You act as if CH is the first and onlyy project big in MU history, or the first to not be an instant impact player.   Shaka has taken on project bigs with the stated intent that they would be a 5 year project.  Hamilton isn't where we want him to be, but he is only 1/2 way through the 5 year plan.   

Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2025, 08:11:41 AMYou act as if CH is the first and onlyy project big in MU history, or the first to not be an instant impact player.   Shaka has taken on project bigs with the stated intent that they would be a 5 year project.  Hamilton isn't where we want him to be, but he is only 1/2 way through the 5 year plan.   

The problem is these projects in the past did not start and play significant minutes while contributing nothing. Almost all of the projects in the past were plastered to the bench for good reason.

Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2025, 08:11:41 AMYou act as if CH is the first and onlyy project big in MU history, or the first to not be an instant impact player. 

No I don't. MU has had several project bigs over the years, but CH is the first I can remember who was forced into the starting lineup when he was so obviously not up to the task.
Youssoupha Mbao was here for all of 10 games in one season. Liam McMorrow never even saw the court in his one season. Mike Kinsella was here for three seasons and never played more than 95 minutes in any of them. Rod Grosse spent four years glued to the bench.
It's one thing to take on an occasional project big. It's another to keep him on the roster for five years and start him, when he hasn't shown he's capable of it.

QuoteShaka has taken on project bigs with the stated intent that they would be a 5 year project.  Hamilton isn't where we want him to be, but he is only 1/2 way through the 5 year plan.

You're very close to my point, tower.
In this era of college basketball, why is Marquette spending five years of scholarship money, five years of NIL money, five years of coaching time, five years of academic support, etc., for a players who you hope can provide 1-2 years of productive play?
Just from a ROI standpoint, it makes no sense. Instead of inhabiting your roster with - and spending resources on - multiple projects who might be helpful by their 4th and 5th seasons, pool those resources and go get a kid who can help you now and maybe for another year or two after that. And then when he's gone, do it again.
If MU's resources are as limited as some around here like to claim, why are we spending those limited resources on players who won't help the team win games for years, if ever?

Marquette basketball isn't a developmental program. It shouldn't be in the business of five-year projects. I'm not opposed to taking projects, but it should be done with the "fail fast, fail cheap" mentality that Buzz employed, not the sunken costs fallacy we're seeing at work today.

What you are saying is that you don't think the Bo Ryan model works in the modern game. Stop taking  developmental bigs.  Which is fine.   

Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2025, 10:18:43 AMWhat you are saying is that you don't think the Bo Ryan model works in the modern game. Stop taking  developmental bigs.  Which is fine.   

Bo Ryan's developmental bigs:

Brian Butch, McDonald's AA, RSCI #7
Greg Steinsma, RSCI #37
Jon Leuer, RSCI #87
JP Gavinski, 4-star, #92 on 247 Composite
Jared Berggren, RSCI #100, 4-star
Evan Anderson, RSCI #95, 4-star
Frank Kaminsky, 3-star
Ethan Happ, 3-star, 247 #150

All of these "developmental" guys, with the exception of Kaminsky and Happ, were top 100 players recruited by high-major programs. Kaminsky had offers from other P5 programs and in Happ's case, he grew three inches from his junior year of high school to college, so he was likely overlooked.

This is not the model Shaka is following. His developmental bigs are zero-star recruits who have no other offers from major programs, and believing he has the secret sauce to turn them into high-major players.
That's not the Bo Ryan model.

And it still took them all time to develop.

I am not opposed to transfers.   I was cheering on Lockett when nobody else was.  I defended Buzz's use of JUCO's in the face of Chico's full wrath.  Wojo's use of grad transfers was fine with me.  I cheered for them all.   As I am cheering for Caedin.

I have said all along that if there are unexpected departures, I expect that Shaka will use the portal.

Right now, in the midst of an ugly season, I cannot bring myself to trash the players on the team more than Shaka (or whomever the coach is in any given season) has.  I never have and I won't start now.

So, because there isn't much else at this point, Caedin, keep working.  Everybody, attack the rim fearlessly.

Yes, tower, I think we all understand that every player who comes into this program is going to need development.
But I think you can recognize that there's a difference in plausible outcomes when it comes to the development of a top 100 kid and the development of a zero-star kid.

Tower there was a reason CH took the MU offer, because it was the only one he got. MU under Shaka has had 4 good years of quality play, has the resources, so to recruit 2 bigs with no stars tells me Shaka maybe is not a good recruiter which is surprising. He is really a smart person, love listening to him, but even there he is getting old.  Not a realist.
Better turn it around next year, as changes have to be made. Stated Tre was his highest rated player recruited, he needs to go. Zaide, even the assistants where not sure about him, Shaka wanted him??

Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2025, 07:49:43 AMI'm not really seeing what you're seeing with CH, but for argument's sake ... should MU be giving scholarships, NIL money and other resources to players who, three years into college, come "miles" and are still well below average for a Big East player?

Good for CH on a personal level that he's come miles, but from a team perspective, what benefit is it if those miles still leaves him a negative player on the court? This isn't summer camp where the goal is to just get better, it's competitive, high-level basketball.

You mention Ejiofor as the target, but Ejiofor was an all-conference player in his third year of college. I hope I'm wrong, but I have a hard time imagining CH will be that by year five.

Anyhow, I guess my question is whether in this era of college basketball and with limited funding available, should MU be investing in players who after three years and miles of development still aren't contributing positively to on-court success?
 

You didn't ask the question to me. But...

I'm fine if shaka wants #13-15 on the roster to be projects that don't produce until year 4/5 in the program. As long as those years are big east starter production numbers.

In this particular situation, CH is never going to be good enough for that production, or he's being forced onto the court too early.

Either way, it's a coaching issue this season.

It's an issue that the majority of bigs he recruits are true projects.

Yep. I have no problem with Caedin being on the roster. But in his third year, at this point of his career, he can't be one of your top ten players if you want to succeed.

If you're punting on this year and want to develop him for the future, fine. But then Stevens, James, Owens, and Phillips should all be out there a lot too.

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 19, 2025, 06:07:14 PMYou didn't ask the question to me. But...

I'm fine if shaka wants #13-15 on the roster to be projects that don't produce until year 4/5 in the program. As long as those years are big east starter production numbers.

In this particular situation, CH is never going to be good enough for that production, or he's being forced onto the court too early.

Either way, it's a coaching issue this season.

Thanks for answering.
Five years ago, I think, I'd probably have agreed with you. There's no major harm/downside to carrying a project as the 13th-15th player on the roster back then.
But in the NIL era, especially with the way it's been reported that MU does NIL, I think there is a downside. Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that payments from the collective are generally fixed, and players are going to get what they get regardless of their standing in the lineup.
Assuming that's correct, I think spending limited funding on end-of-the-bench players is kind of wasteful. Aren't we getting more bang for our buck spending the NIL pool on 11-12 players who are having or are expected to soon have a positive impact, as opposed to diluting it among 15 players, 3-5 of whom aren't really contributors and may never be contributors?
I just don't think it's an effective use of resources to invest 4-5 years money for 1-2 years of production.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2025, 07:04:22 PMThanks for answering.
Five years ago, I think, I'd probably have agreed with you. There's no major harm/downside to carrying a project as the 13th-15th player on the roster back then.
But in the NIL era, especially with the way it's been reported that MU does NIL, I think there is a downside. Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that payments from the collective are generally fixed, and players are going to get what they get regardless of their standing in the lineup.
Assuming that's correct, I think spending limited funding on end-of-the-bench players is kind of wasteful. Aren't we getting more bang for our buck spending the NIL pool on 11-12 players who are having or are expected to soon have a positive impact, as opposed to diluting it among 15 players, 3-5 of whom aren't really contributors and may never be contributors?
I just don't think it's an effective use of resources to invest 4-5 years money for 1-2 years of production.

I agree with you.  Socialism never ends well.  And if as you write above, this is our way of paying players - it creates all kinds of problems, despite being noble in intention.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on December 19, 2025, 07:27:55 PMI agree with you.  Socialism never ends well.  And if as you write above, this is our way of paying players - it creates all kinds of problems, despite being noble in intention.

Nm

Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2025, 07:04:22 PMThanks for answering.
Five years ago, I think, I'd probably have agreed with you. There's no major harm/downside to carrying a project as the 13th-15th player on the roster back then.
But in the NIL era, especially with the way it's been reported that MU does NIL, I think there is a downside. Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that payments from the collective are generally fixed, and players are going to get what they get regardless of their standing in the lineup.
Assuming that's correct, I think spending limited funding on end-of-the-bench players is kind of wasteful. Aren't we getting more bang for our buck spending the NIL pool on 11-12 players who are having or are expected to soon have a positive impact, as opposed to diluting it among 15 players, 3-5 of whom aren't really contributors and may never be contributors?
I just don't think it's an effective use of resources to invest 4-5 years money for 1-2 years of production.

No, not everyone gets Kam, OSO, Kolek, Stevie, Jolp money, there is an amount per year fixed for loyalty, but top guys do get more.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2025, 07:04:22 PMAnyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that payments from the collective are generally fixed, and players are going to get what they get regardless of their standing in the lineup.
Assuming that's correct,

<Corrects Pak>. Incorrect.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 20, 2025, 05:18:57 PM<Corrects Pak>. Incorrect.

By all means, illuminate us on how it works.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 20, 2025, 06:45:47 PMBy all means, illuminate us on how it works.

Far beyond a paywall my boi

Such easy money!

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 20, 2025, 07:20:33 PMFar beyond a paywall my boi

Uh-huh.