I don't think you need detailed stat breakdowns to see what's wrong with the team this season, but if you wanted some to validate your eye test, boy are there plenty to choose from in here.
LINK HERE (https://painttouches.com/2025/12/01/on-talent-and-offensive-offense-marquette/?utm_source=MU%20Scoop&utm_medium=Forum)
(https://painttouches.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/image-30.png)
Boy oh boy is that a sobering article. It just shows why people are so down on this team and why the future doesn't look all that bright in the near term as well.
Just popped in to say that it is worse than we probably all even thought.
NET Rankings dropped this morning and we are 167 !!!!!
https://x.com/ButlerGuru/status/1995497335636590879?t=SA7qHmilrVXEhJZ1qvrHcQ&s=19
If MU is dropping 6 large on NIL can't say we are getting our money's worth
How do stats like these affect recruiting and retention? Curious what our more knowledgeable contributors think
Not great, Bob:
https://x.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1995507484195488145
Quote from: BE_GoldenEagle on December 01, 2025, 08:53:33 AMJust popped in to say that it is worse than we probably all even thought.
NET Rankings dropped this morning and we are 167 !!!!!
https://x.com/ButlerGuru/status/1995497335636590879?t=SA7qHmilrVXEhJZ1qvrHcQ&s=19
The gap is widening and crickets from Reeker
Unfortunately this was the concern before the season started because of last years fall off and the reserves not playing well enough. Kam's on off splits were ridiculous last year.
But, "Shaka develops players". People repeatedly said over the summer he'd get the same development out of the current players that he got out of Lewis, Kolek, Oso, Kam, Omax, Stevie, and Jop. But the fact of the matter is the eye tests and metrics said differently. The talent was not there. Shaka, had a crap ton of talent on that first roster. That's why his development model worked. Whether that is hindsight or not it's the truth. He got really lucky with that first round of talent. Some of it fell in his lap. Some he got through two transfers.
But," we are taller and more athletic than we have ever been". That does not matter if you are not skilled.
TRGV. The T must come first. Good coaching can only do so much.
Shaka needs to develop what we have but this will be a long rebuild if the guys sitting on the bench and the incoming freshman are not the real deal.
Great article. Seems clear we don't have the personnel to play the style of ball Shaka wants. If we don't have the means to up the talent, then should at least change the scheme.
In your face, DePaul!
That article is very grim. And does not give me hope for next year if we do not get 2-3 portal guys - and its very unlikely we get any portal guys.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 01, 2025, 10:32:59 AMGreat article. Seems clear we don't have the personnel to play the style of ball Shaka wants. If we don't have the means to up the talent, then should at least change the scheme.
But. We. Do. We have the means to up the talent, we just have a coach who refuses to utilize those means to the fullest extent. Hence the frustration.
Pfft. How many other teams can say they have a guy who made 10,000 hook shots during the offseason? We the best.
Quote from: BE_GoldenEagle on December 01, 2025, 08:53:33 AMJust popped in to say that it is worse than we probably all even thought.
NET Rankings dropped this morning and we are 167 !!!!!
https://x.com/ButlerGuru/status/1995497335636590879?t=SA7qHmilrVXEhJZ1qvrHcQ&s=19
I am newly encouraged that we can get at least 1 win versus Depaul.
Come on ...
Knock it off ! U guys are practicing
" resulting " which Shaka said we should not do.
I suggest all u Debbie Downers go buy RGV wear for your entire families as a penance.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 01, 2025, 12:20:14 PMCome on ...
Knock it off ! U guys are practicing
" resulting " which Shaka said we should not do.
I suggest all u Debbie Downers go buy RGV wear for your entire families as a penance.
Was this a recent quote?
This is one of the sorriest basketball teams I've ever seen. I overlooked Wojo's first year as growing pains but Shaka put this team together with his own brand five years into the job. Pathetic
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 01, 2025, 12:31:43 PMWas this a recent quote?
Shaka was talking about "resulting" in the Dayton post game presser.
Sobering article. Analytics totally match the eye test.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 01, 2025, 10:24:36 AMBut, "Shaka develops players". People repeatedly said over the summer he'd get the same development out of the current players that he got out of Lewis, Kolek, Oso, Kam, Omax, Stevie, and Jop.
I can't speak for other "people," but I said only that Shaka had a history of developing players, so I was hopeful that we would see significant improvement from the likes of Lowery, Owens, Parham and Hamilton. I think the first part of my statement was absolutely true. And as an optimistic fan, I don't think it was crazy-talk to have realistic hope for the second part of the equation.
Unfortunately, the significant improvement hasn't happened, and there arguably has been regression for a couple of them.
Quote from: MU82 on December 01, 2025, 12:57:55 PMI can't speak for other "people," but I said only that Shaka had a history of developing players, so I was hopeful that we would see significant improvement from the likes of Lowery, Owens, Parham and Hamilton. I think the first part of my statement was absolutely true. And as an optimistic fan, I don't think it was crazy-talk to have realistic hope for the second part of the equation.
Unfortunately, the significant improvement hasn't happened, and there arguably has been regression for a couple of them.
It's been said on here before, but there's also the real possibility that guys like Kolek, Oso, and Kam caused Shaka to overestimate how well he and staff can develop players. It's one thing to develop guys who show they can be studs down the road (i.e., Nigel), and another to develop guys who first picked up a basketball in high school. It doesn't take an expert to know that, with the latter, you're choosing a longer growth journey for a product with a lower ceiling.
As corny as the RGV marketing is, I think it's still a good model on paper. Shaka just needs to realize that when it comes to the R, the emphasis shouldn't be on relationships. It should be on recruitment.
According to TRank 61 of our 69 made 3s this season are assisted.
Almost 90% of made 3s being assisted seems like it isn't normal. We have no offensive creation. Just a very sad roster.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 01, 2025, 03:39:42 PMAccording to TRank 61 of our 69 made 3s this season are assisted.
Almost 90% of made 3s being assisted seems like it isn't normal. We have no offensive creation. Just a very sad roster.
That's not what that stat says to me. It says that we don't have shot makers, especially when the shot is contested.
We had better shot quality than Dayton, Maryland, and Oklahoma. We just convert at a horrendous level, both from 3 and under the basket.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 01, 2025, 05:25:03 PMThat's not what that stat says to me. It says that we don't have shot makers, especially when the shot is contested.
We had better shot quality than Dayton, Maryland, and Oklahoma. We just convert at a horrendous level, both from 3 and under the basket.
I guess both can be true. We definitely aren't a good shooting team but I think we've seen that we struggle to creat jump shots for ourselves too. Late game scenarios twice now where we can't get an open look because we don't have a guy that can go get his own bucket when we need one.
Just such a terrible terrible mesh of players.
Quote from: panda on December 01, 2025, 12:33:38 PMThis is one of the sorriest basketball teams I've ever seen. I overlooked Wojo's first year as growing pains but Shaka put this team together with his own brand five years into the job. Pathetic
bro, Tower and Wades would like a word
Quote from: BE_GoldenEagle on December 01, 2025, 08:53:33 AMJust popped in to say that it is worse than we probably all even thought.
NET Rankings dropped this morning and we are 167 !!!!!
https://x.com/ButlerGuru/status/1995497335636590879?t=SA7qHmilrVXEhJZ1qvrHcQ&s=19
Holy hell. That NET number shook me up a bit.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 01, 2025, 06:14:43 PMHoly hell. That NET number shook me up a bit.
It was a long scroll. I got to 120 and started scrolling back up because I thought maybe I just missed us. :(
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 01, 2025, 06:24:22 PMIt was a long scroll. I got to 120 and started scrolling back up because I thought maybe I just missed us. :(
As many have stated, we struggle creating good shots in the h-c and our bigs have been an unmitigated disaster. I know it's easy to pick on Caedin, but in his defense he hasn't played significant mins until now. What we're getting from Ben and Royce, not to mention DO, is truly an abomination.
We have payed four pretty bad teams and won, and 4 decent teams of which we should have bet at least two and lost. The team never quites in the fight - they just, so far, have not shown the quality depth, experience and talent to win the tougher games.
That could change, but my guess was we would have beat OK if the team's light bulb went bright and they saw the light. But no. Mostly the issue is talent and experience. We are lacking 8n those areas. Maybe development did it happen like the coaches thought. Maybe it will take longer. But right now, this team seems los5 at times. That's never good. But guys like James is going to be a star - Phillips could be excellent at scoring once he gets his defense down... he will play more. Steven's will be good, and CH has shown s9me good moves and can develop into a decent player. So.... There is ....hope!
I think the "range player" ⛳️ aspect of this can't be overlooked.
Everyone sounds like they easily saw this coming, but who can honestly say that after seeing some preseason scrimmage previews?
There was a certain fearlessness on both sides of the ball about Tyler, Kam, Stevie, Jop, even Oso to an extent.
It's like this team plays scared, especially in end-of-game situations.
Sticking to the golf analogy...
At least with golf, there's a rationale or explanation about why players with a decent modicum of talent don't take it to the course. Good swings can still lead to big numbers if one small aspect of your game is off that day. Sure there's a final score in basketball, but it's not a number that can define you the way it can a golfer.
I think these guys have more talent than people think. I believe they're not anywhere close to it at the moment. I know the analytics guys think they have everything engraved on a stone tablet. I don't mean that against them. I value what they do. Let's just all support our team and see what happens. Shaka has given us reason to trust him and to be proud of the guys he's brought into the program. Maybe they're getting in their own way right now?! Let's cut everyone some slack, and if the season doesn't work out, I trust we'll be back soon enough.
I read enough crap!!!! Most of you are a bunch of whining bitches!!! I suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment. There are others who don't understand that Shaka is building a solid program, and that takes time. Do I like his stubborn approach, yes and no. Give him the opportunity to fail. How long did it take Jay Wright/John Thompson/Brad Stephens?? Bake or Microwave??? As a proud alum (class of 1980) bake is fine by me, the ship is in the hands of someone who cares about the program and it's perception nationwide. I think we'll all be satisfied with the results come March if we just have some FREAKING patience. If you love your school like I do, stop belly-aching and enjoy the process.
Last post on the golf analogy.
I was talking with a PGA pro about the late great teacher Harvey Penick. (Little Red Book)📕 .
"Play Golf like a conversation with nature." Immerse yourself in the beautiful surroundings and just trust what you've trained.
Maybe there's a way the coaching staff can get these guys to take the pressure off themselves and just have fun out there?!
Like Al used to say, "create a party on the court and keep it going."
I'm with BYRDMAN. This is one damn season. And even that ain't over. We have a veritable Chef d' 🏀 at the helm of our program. He will get it done.
Quote from: Byrdman on December 01, 2025, 10:38:34 PMI read enough crap!!!! Most of you are a bunch of whining bitches!!! I suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment. There are others who don't understand that Shaka is building a solid program, and that takes time. Do I like his stubborn approach, yes and no. Give him the opportunity to fail. How long did it take Jay Wright/John Thompson/Brad Stephens?? Bake or Microwave??? As a proud alum (class of 1980) bake is fine by me, the ship is in the hands of someone who cares about the program and it's perception nationwide. I think we'll all be satisfied with the results come March if we just have some FREAKING patience. If you love your school like I do, stop belly-aching and enjoy the process.
Lol, come on.
Quote from: Byrdman on December 01, 2025, 10:38:34 PMI read enough crap!!!! Most of you are a bunch of whining bitches!!! I suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment. There are others who don't understand that Shaka is building a solid program, and that takes time. Do I like his stubborn approach, yes and no. Give him the opportunity to fail. How long did it take Jay Wright/John Thompson/Brad Stephens?? Bake or Microwave??? As a proud alum (class of 1980) bake is fine by me, the ship is in the hands of someone who cares about the program and it's perception nationwide. I think we'll all be satisfied with the results come March if we just have some FREAKING patience. If you love your school like I do, stop belly-aching and enjoy the process.
lol look I'm all for giving Shaka a mulligan, he's earned it from 2023 & 2024 but if you think this team is getting somewhere in March you're way out of touch with what needs to happen in the non conference to get an at large bid.
Quote from: Daniel on December 01, 2025, 08:47:01 PMWe have payed four pretty bad teams and won, and 4 decent teams of which we should have bet at least two and lost. The team never quites in the fight - they just, so far, have not shown the quality depth, experience and talent to win the tougher games.
That could change, but my guess was we would have beat OK if the team's light bulb went bright and they saw the light. But no. Mostly the issue is talent and experience. We are lacking 8n those areas. Maybe development did it happen like the coaches thought. Maybe it will take longer. But right now, this team seems los5 at times. That's never good. But guys like James is going to be a star - Phillips could be excellent at scoring once he gets his defense down... he will play more. Steven's will be good, and CH has shown s9me good moves and can develop into a decent player. So.... There is ....hope!
What in the @ctual f&ck?!
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on December 01, 2025, 08:58:19 AMIf MU is dropping 6 large on NIL can't say we are getting our money's worth
Maybe the opposite is true. The financial incentive is not there thus the poor performance and motivation.
Man we have lost 2 straight to Dayton. They also have widened the gap. We are a low major now under Shakas lesdership.
Time to batten the hatches. Reeker will come up with a strategy to close the chasm.
Quote from: Byrdman on December 01, 2025, 10:38:34 PMI read enough crap!!!! Most of you are a bunch of whining bitches!!! I suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment. There are others who don't understand that Shaka is building a solid program, and that takes time. Do I like his stubborn approach, yes and no. Give him the opportunity to fail. How long did it take Jay Wright/John Thompson/Brad Stephens?? Bake or Microwave??? As a proud alum (class of 1980) bake is fine by me, the ship is in the hands of someone who cares about the program and it's perception nationwide. I think we'll all be satisfied with the results come March if we just have some FREAKING patience. If you love your school like I do, stop belly-aching and enjoy the process.
Very few are whining here buddy. Most are bringing up concerns about how the talent has fallen the last couple of seasons. You have to be blind not to see there have been recruiting misses here. And his unwillingness to (so far) "fix" these misses through the portal means that any turned around is a couple seasons ahead.
Oh as for your comparisons...
By year five, Jay Wright made the Elite 8.
By year five, Brad Stevens had been to two championship games.
John Thompson is a terrible comparison because he took a program that had done absolutely nothing and turned it into a powerhouse. Shaka had a miles head start compared to where Thompson was.
Only outliers here think he should be fired or not given a chance to right the ship by the way - throwing out race is just dumb and lazy.
Quote from: Byrdman on December 01, 2025, 10:38:34 PMI suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment.
Unbelievable.
This is a truly discouraging article to read, but I really appreciate it. I guess it forces me to accept the team for what it is - the group that can't shoot straight. What puzzles me is how this came to be. Did Shaka actually not realize what kind of team he was putting together or is it a surprise to him too?
If MU is spending 6 million on this roster, they could get the same results spending 600K. Hopefully, someone sees the light and cuts their losses with the 2026-27 roster.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on December 02, 2025, 08:36:32 AMUnbelievable.
Especially now that chicos is no longer on Scoop.
Quote from: rgoode57 on December 02, 2025, 09:02:29 AMDid Shaka actually not realize what kind of team he was putting together or is it a surprise to him too?
He did try to warn us that V wasn't necessarily winning basketball games
https://vimeo.com/1131460360
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 02, 2025, 10:15:42 AMHe did try to warn us that V wasn't necessarily winning basketball games
https://vimeo.com/1131460360
I wish I could define the ultimate metric of success in my job differently than anyone else who does my job.
Quote from: The Sultan on December 02, 2025, 10:20:34 AMI wish I could define the ultimate metric of success in my job differently than anyone else who does my job.
Just create an acronym and throw it on some t-shirts!
Quote from: GoFastAndWin on December 01, 2025, 10:27:16 PMSticking to the golf analogy...
At least with golf, there's a rationale or explanation about why players with a decent modicum of talent don't take it to the course. Good swings can still lead to big numbers if one small aspect of your game is off that day. Sure there's a final score in basketball, but it's not a number that can define you the way it can a golfer.
I think these guys have more talent than people think. I believe they're not anywhere close to it at the moment. I know the analytics guys think they have everything engraved on a stone tablet. I don't mean that against them. I value what they do. Let's just all support our team and see what happens. Shaka has given us reason to trust him and to be proud of the guys he's brought into the program. Maybe they're getting in their own way right now?! Let's cut everyone some slack, and if the season doesn't work out, I trust we'll be back soon enough.
Definitely getting in their own way. Felt like that in the 2nd half at the OU game. Need some confidence builders to play a little more fearless--and for the ball to move a little better (NJ is good, but the ball gets stuck a lot).
Still believe the team will grow as the season goes. It's a bummer we didnt play a Buzz-esque schedule to get more confidence.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on December 02, 2025, 10:34:02 AMIt's a bummer we didnt play a Buzz-esque schedule to get more confidence.
It's not like we've played a tough schedule. Kenpom currently has MUs SoS at #221. Maryland is at #115.
Quote from: Byrdman on December 01, 2025, 10:38:34 PMI read enough crap!!!! Most of you are a bunch of whining bitches!!! I suspect that some of the Shaka hate has underlying racial sentiment.
This has to be a joke, right?
Being frustrated that a coach continually isn't utilizing all the resources he has to build a strong team makes me and others racist? Incredible.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 02, 2025, 10:15:42 AMHe did try to warn us that V wasn't necessarily winning basketball games
https://vimeo.com/1131460360
As an MU alum, there'll never be a day where I dislike Shaka or want to see him go. It's refreshing to have a coach that centers on people first and aligns with Marquette's Jesuit values as much as he does.
As a basketball fan, this also gives me reason to be concerned that things might not change as much as Scoop wants them to. If you make it clear that your culture and victories revolve around developing players off the court just as much as (if not more than) on the court, surely that would make it harder to let go of guys like Sean and Tre who many would deem as recruitment misses, but to Shaka may be seen as personal character successes.
At the end of the day, the guy was hired to coach basketball, so I'd like to believe that winning is his first priority and he'll make whatever adjustments are needed to improve that in the future. But with how loud the program has become about the culture and RGV, I also can't help but feel like it's reached a point of no return.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 02, 2025, 11:42:26 AMAs an MU alum, there'll never be a day where I dislike Shaka or want to see him go. It's refreshing to have a coach that centers on people first and aligns with Marquette's Jesuit values as much as he does.
As a basketball fan, this also gives me reason to be concerned that things might not change as much as Scoop wants them to. If you make it clear that your culture and victories revolve around developing players off the court just as much as (if not more than) on the court, surely that would make it harder to let go of guys like Sean and Tre who many would deem as recruitment misses, but to Shaka may be seen as personal character successes.
At the end of the day, the guy was hired to coach basketball, so I'd like to believe that winning is his first priority and he'll make whatever adjustments are needed to improve that in the future. But with how loud the program has become about the culture and RGV, I also can't help but feel like it's reached a point of no return.
Come March he can say he will evaluate adjusting the model slightly and then pull in 1 or 2 transfers and (1 or 2 transfer out for more playing time) and then say limited transfers don't upset the balance and values he is trying to cultivate.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 02, 2025, 03:06:11 PMCome March he can say he will evaluate adjusting the model slightly and then pull in 1 or 2 transfers and (1 or 2 transfer out for more playing time) and then say limited transfers don't upset the balance and values he is trying to cultivate.
I'm reminded of the game intro motto.
Pray.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 02, 2025, 03:06:11 PMCome March he can say he will evaluate adjusting the model slightly and then pull in 1 or 2 transfers and (1 or 2 transfer out for more playing time) and then say limited transfers don't upset the balance and values he is trying to cultivate.
Right. The idea that Shaka just stopped caring about trying to win basketball games and wants a group that sings Kumbaya together is crazy. He misplayed his hand this year, and maybe he even overestimated his and the staff's ability to take any player and develop them. He's a competitive guy and if this season goes as poorly as it appears it will, he's not just going to sit around and do nothing about it. Do I know what the adjustments will be? Nope. But he'll make some.