1. I remember under Buzz when we would all be frustrated that he hadn't installed his offense. It feels like Shaka doesn't have their defense installed yet. Much like the offense in the first half of the Albany game where the offense was a whole lot of first action but rarely second action, it looks to me like there isn't a complete understanding and trust on defense. Related to that may be no longer switching 1-5.
2. Shaka switched up his second half starting line up. Notable as it is the first time in years. Get used to it.
3. Sean will figure out how how to play point. Getting into the paint without a plan for the next play.
4. IU did a really good job of screening off the ball. Creating just enough of a rub to create space for DeVries or Wilkerson. Those two could not miss.
5. MU did a phenomenal job of getting to the basket and getting fouled, compared to what we are used to.
6. Sadly, too often trading 2 for 3.
7. No deflections.
8. They are going to be coachable this week. 'Why am I not playing more?' Here, let me show you how you played defense against Indiana.
9. So, young men. Back to work. Work on your defensive rotations and help.
10. I still believe this a tourney team.
Just posted in game thread:
Marquette's continuity roster got its ass kicked by Indiana's portal roster.
Quote from: PointWarrior on November 09, 2025, 02:10:38 PMJust posted in game thread:
Marquette's continuity roster got its ass kicked by Indiana's portal roster.
Who on MU's roster would start for Indiana? Maybe Chase?
Not going to get too worked up about this one on Nov 9th. Shaka has built up a lot of equity with me. Think these guys will be playing well by the end of the year. Hopefully it's enough for a bid.
Nigel looks way ahead of Sean. I thought he would pass him next year, but it may actually be as soon as this Wednesday. Also, Parham looked good. He's going to be in there instead of Hamilton before we know it.
Nigel, Chase, Lowery, Parham, Gold. That's our best lineup imo, and we'll see it more often going forward.
If this game is any indication, you can commit a moving screen at all times.
Sour grapes aside...this team needs to buy into the defense. It was kinda sad watching it today. The only person that deserves kudos is Ben. dude played hard af
Quote from: CountryRoads on November 09, 2025, 02:16:02 PMNot going to get too worked up about this one on Nov 9th.
Except this is the part of the season where Shaka teams are actually successful. If there are this bad now, think of the disaster we'll see in February and March.
Quote from: Farley36 on November 09, 2025, 02:29:17 PMExcept this is the part of the season where Shaka teams are actually successful. If there are this bad now, think of the disaster we'll see in February and March.
Wow you think they'll be playing in march? You're a lot higher on this team than I would've thought
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 09, 2025, 02:23:15 PMIf this game is any indication, you can commit a moving screen at all times.
Sour grapes aside...this team needs to buy into the defense. It was kinda sad watching it today. The only person that deserves kudos is Ben. dude played hard af
Parham too. He was using his body and strength to get rebounds and draw fouls.
Quote from: Johnny B on November 09, 2025, 02:30:34 PMWow you think they'll be playing in march? You're a lot higher on this team than I would've thought
The Big East tournament is in March, so he's not wrong.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 02:09:48 PM1. I remember under Buzz when we would all be frustrated that he hadn't installed his offense. It feels like Shaka doesn't have their defense installed yet. Much like the offense in the first half of the Albany game where the offense was a whole lot of first action but rarely second action, it looks to me like there isn't a complete understanding and trust on defense. Related to that may be no longer switching 1-5.
2. Shaka switched up his second half starting line up. Notable as it is the first time in years. Get used to it.
3. Sean will figure out how how to play point. Getting into the paint without a plan for the next play.
4. IU did a really good job of screening off the ball. Creating just enough of a rub to create space for DeVries or Wilkerson. Those two could not miss.
5. MU did a phenomenal job of getting to the basket and getting fouled, compared to what we are used to.
6. Sadly, too often trading 2 for 3.
7. No deflections.
8. They are going to be coachable this week. 'Why am I not playing more?' Here, let me show you how you played defense against Indiana.
9. So, young men. Back to work. Work on your defensive rotations and help.
10. I still believe this a tourney team.
I will have what you are smoking
As long as we disagree, I feel like I am in a safe space.
More free throws, more rebounds, more points in the paint. Things to build on.
Too many turnovers, too many open 3's allowed. Things to work on.
Just curious, when was the last time Marquette gave up 100 points? It has to be eons ago---I'm a SHU grad & it's pretty much an annual occurrence here in Jersey. Good luck this year in the Big East!
Quote from: CaptBob on November 09, 2025, 03:02:28 PMJust curious, when was the last time Marquette gave up 100 points? It has to be eons ago---I'm a SHU grad & it's pretty much an annual occurrence here in Jersey. Good luck this year in the Big East!
Without looking, I thought it was when that cupcake Omaha dropped 100 on us in the Wojos first year but that was 97.
Oh boy.
- My expectations for Sean were all based on improved decision making. So far, he hasn't shown that on either end. Too often his feet leave the ground without a plan of where the ball is going.
- NJ might be the key to this team. It was 32-29 in the first half when he went out, then it all went to hell. Give the kid the keys.
- Tucker DeVries made some crazy crap to put us down early. That an Enright's three...there were some aspects of "this isn't our day". But...
- ...When we were getting back into it in the second half, we didn't go over screens and Lamar Wilkerson shot us right back out of it. The defense wasn't up to speed.
- If our defense is predicated on disruption and turnovers, we need to get hands on the ball and generate turnovers. I was more concerned about the defense than the offense today.
- Development is our other cornerstone. Not enough from SJ, Royce, Owens, Caedin (if he's going to start).
- Give me as much NJ/Chase/Zaide/Parham/Gold as they can handle. Shaka may not know his best lineups yet, but it sure feels like that's it.
Quote from: Norm on November 09, 2025, 02:14:48 PMWho on MU's roster would start for Indiana? Maybe Chase?
Nigel.
I, too was more concerned about the defense than the offense.
To start, this isn't the same defensive concept that we have seen the last 4 years. Not switching 1-5, not switching as much in general. Trying to use the length and speed to guard more one on one.
The help isn't automatic and instinctive yet. When to double the dribble. When, as the 5, to leave your man and contest the shot. And, when that happens, weak side defenders dropping down to take away the dump offs and to fight for rebounds after the big contests the drive. I commented on this after the Albany game and singled out Chase and Damarius.
Specific to today and what IU did with their off ball screening to get open looks for DeVries and Wilkerson, MU was indecisive. Shooter's defender fighting through the screen? Screener's defender jumping to the shooter? Whatever they chose, it was late.
Things to work on.
#FTsNoMatta
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 02:09:48 PM1. I remember under Buzz when we would all be frustrated that he hadn't installed his offense. It feels like Shaka doesn't have their defense installed yet. Much like the offense in the first half of the Albany game where the offense was a whole lot of first action but rarely second action, it looks to me like there isn't a complete understanding and trust on defense. Related to that may be no longer switching 1-5.
2. Shaka switched up his second half starting line up. Notable as it is the first time in years. Get used to it.
3. Sean will figure out how how to play point. Getting into the paint without a plan for the next play.
4. IU did a really good job of screening off the ball. Creating just enough of a rub to create space for DeVries or Wilkerson. Those two could not miss.
5. MU did a phenomenal job of getting to the basket and getting fouled, compared to what we are used to.
6. Sadly, too often trading 2 for 3.
7. No deflections.
8. They are going to be coachable this week. 'Why am I not playing more?' Here, let me show you how you played defense against Indiana.
9. So, young men. Back to work. Work on your defensive rotations and help.
10. I still believe this a tourney team.
your pts 1,3 and 7 are concerning. Pt 10...care to elaborate?
Quote from: Viper on November 09, 2025, 03:30:02 PMyour pts 1,3 and 7 are concerning. Pt 10...care to elaborate?
Which big word did your BIL not explain to you?
To my eyes, this game was more about what Indiana did than what Marquette didn't do.
A Shaka defense doesn't give up 100, but most offenses don't shoot 50% from 3 on that volume.
I saw some poor rotations and there were more open looks than there needed to be, but there were substantially more well contested hand in the face type 3P makes by the Hoosiers.
Sometimes, when your opponent makes those it can become very deflating and shake your confidence/energy.
On top of that, I rarely if ever complain about the refs and they didn't screw MU, but that was the most whistle happy and choppy game I've witnessed in person. Can't believe MU was in the 1 and 1 before the 15 min mark in the 1H and still got destroyed.
Just a strange game in a lot of ways.
As for our guys, to me the biggest shock was that they couldn't turn that team over or get them flustered at all, but again when you make 14 3s and lead comfortably for 30 mins it's hard to get shook.
It's also very strange that MU was clearly much quicker and more athletic all over the court and got blown out. Let's not forget that Indiana starts 5 seniors. They won't shoot like that more than a few times all season, and they will have to shoot 40% from 3 to win a lot of tough B10 games because they will be athletically inferior to their opponent, but it bodes very well for DeVries that they don't turn it over and that their mid major guys look to be high major players.
Those aren't excuses, and Shaka does have a problem. He has b2b classes with what *could be only 1-2 BE starting type of players- Zaide and Sean should hold their own, Parham too more often than not hopefully- and that's going to present a problem.
Not to beat a dead horse but he really needs Parham and DO to figure it out and get that sophomore life that Zaide got in the 2H of last year, or else it'll get tough.
I digress. My main takeaway today is that it was a pretty anomalous game, and I'm not sure how useful the tape will be outside of showing missed rotations and lack of help on defense. Otherwise, throw that one away.
Oh, and Nigel James can play.
And Tucker DeVries is a jerk but he's got some solid old man game for the college level
With the players they have, the only thing that I'd expect to be working is the defense. Which makes today a pretty big indictment.
A lot of experienced players proved they don't belong out there. Shaka should let the younger guys play with Chase and Ben and either figure it out or fail fast. The relationship with Hamilton, Tre and Ross sucks and should be aborted if they want growth and victories in the future.
We out rebounded them. We got to the line at will.
We just failed to knock down enough open 3s and our defense sucks.
Quote from: Farley36 on November 09, 2025, 02:29:17 PMExcept this is the part of the season where Shaka teams are actually successful. If there are this bad now, think of the disaster we'll see in February and March.
*They're
There literally was no D today. Frustrating. We have given up 235 points in three games. Yikes.
Where is DO?
Looks like a frosh.
Why was our 3fga/fga % so low when playing from behind most of the game? Staff. o confident? ugh
It will be interesting to see who is going to be the leader on this team. So far, no one has taken over.
It's really sad to see someone who spent so much time working to come back play so poorly, but if Sean doesn't figure it out soon I can't imagine there will be much PT in his future.
Quote from: 1SE on November 09, 2025, 03:50:32 PMIt's really sad to see someone who spent so much time working to come back play so poorly, but if Sean doesn't figure it out soon I can't imagine there will be much PT in his future.
I think Shaka will start Sean maybe every game. Maybe he win stay in long if he does not figure it out, but that's what Shaka will do. Loyalty. But so far our point play is helter skelter vs controlled.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 02:56:39 PMAs long as we disagree, I feel like I am in a safe space.
Yes, feelings are very important. I feel this team has issues.
Quote from: 1SE on November 09, 2025, 03:50:32 PMIt's really sad to see someone who spent so much time working to come back play so poorly, but if Sean doesn't figure it out soon I can't imagine there will be much PT in his future.
Who are they going to play instead? Tre?
Sean will have to play out of necessity. Nigel looks very real but he can't go 40. He might not even be able to go 25 this early in his career. He will have his own Freshman growing pains too.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 02:56:39 PMAs long as we disagree, I feel like I am in a safe space.
Yes feelings are important. I feel this team has big time issues.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 03:31:08 PMWhich big word did your BIL not explain to you?
...why the vitriol? I am simply asking why you are optimistic.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 09, 2025, 03:57:05 PMWho are they going to play instead? Tre?
Sean will have to play out of necessity. Nigel looks very real but he can't go 40. He might not even be able to go 25 this early in his career. He will have his own Freshman growing pains too.
Dominic James played 32 MPG as a frosh. Tony Miller logged 34 mpg. I don't buy the idea that a freshman can't give us more than 25 mpg.
I am always optimistic. It is who I am.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 09, 2025, 03:42:41 PMWhere is DO?
Looks like a frosh.
I think DO needs to show he's physical enough for BE basketball. He's certainly athletic enough.
Roster lacks experience and BE level talent. Unless James turns out to be a stud it could be rough given the lack of a true floor general. Kam filled in nicely for Kolek. The senior class is a lot weaker and that trickles down in terms of how the younger guys play.
The big men are as-expected. Gold's a first big off the bench type guy. No hate as he's been doing his thing. Odd that Royce doesn't even start over Hamilton. Really need Sheek to be a big time get for years to come.
Norman continues to be a total non-factor and Lowery has always been streaky. Owens looks lost and unplayable right now.
I think my favorite part of the very young season so far has been Phillips' three straight triples the other night.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 09, 2025, 04:29:13 PMRoster lacks experience and BE level talent. Unless James turns out to be a stud it could be rough given the lack of a true floor general. Kam filled in nicely for Kolek. The senior class is a lot weaker and that trickles down in terms of how the younger guys play.
The big men are as-expected. Gold's a first big off the bench type guy. No hate as he's been doing his thing. Odd that Royce doesn't even start over Hamilton. Really need Sheek to be a big time get for years to come.
Norman continues to be a total non-factor and Lowery has always been streaky. Owens looks lost and unplayable right now.
I think my favorite part of the very young season so far has been Phillips' three straight triples the other night.
James is already a stud.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 09, 2025, 04:29:13 PMRoster lacks experience and BE level talent. Unless James turns out to be a stud it could be rough given the lack of a true floor general. Kam filled in nicely for Kolek. The senior class is a lot weaker and that trickles down in terms of how the younger guys play.
The big men are as-expected. Gold's a first big off the bench type guy. No hate as he's been doing his thing. Odd that Royce doesn't even start over Hamilton. Really need Sheek to be a big time get for years to come.
Norman continues to be a total non-factor and Lowery has always been streaky. Owens looks lost and unplayable right now.
I think my favorite part of the very young season so far has been Phillips' three straight triples the other night.
Surprised Norman is still on this roster tbh. Kind of a blown scholarship. 4 years of being glued to the bench
Quote from: PointWarrior on November 09, 2025, 02:10:38 PMJust posted in game thread:
Marquette's continuity roster got its ass kicked by Indiana's portal roster.
Love what Shaka is doing, but today, I have to agree. I was up front and in person for this one and IU looked super connected like they have playing together for years (which of course they haven't). MU, not so much. Only one game, but I'm hoping we see MUCH more ball movement going forward. Portal strategy won in this game hands down. Hopefully, we can win the long match.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 09, 2025, 03:42:41 PMWhere is DO?
Looks like a frosh.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 03:44:43 PMThat is one of the issues.
Yes. He is a liability out there. Selfish on O and doesn't get back on D. And he has the physical tools to be a stud. Hopefully, he can find the maturity needed to excel but he needs a gut check because he doesn't seem upset to be glued to the bench with freshman playing ahead of him.
And, what am I missing re Parham for those who like him? He's a back hole and bad decision maker who looks for himself first and foremost. He made some plays when the game was over but he has irrational confidence in his abilities considering his limited athleticism. He also plays flat footed and has no explosion. Looks like a great rec leaguer.
Sean lacks in all things that a PG should excel in. Gets into the paint without a plan. Doesn't catch the ball ready to shoot. Dribbles too much. And his D close outs were embarrassing today. Where has he gotten better while sitting out for two years? Did he bother to talk to Tyler at all about how to control tempo and an offense?
Shaka needs a better offensive coach on the bench. You can only give NBA level control to players with NBA level abilities. And we had none of those. So in game coaching matters all the more and unfortunately that is Shaka's biggest weakness. It pains me to say it because I love Shaka and his approach and want it to work. But that was Game 2 with a wholly new roster for Devries and IU and they made us look like we don't belong.
Like someone said the portal guys beat the culture guys. They had Larry Bird in first half and a Steph Curry in second. Add in about five lob passes to bigs for dunks and game over.
The offense is just not good right now. It consists of Jones or Ross dribbling around the perimeter. Not your typical Shaka offense of live or die from three, only took 16. Almost 40% of their 77 points came from the free throw line and the 10 total assists to IU's 27 is not good.
Big turnaround came when Nigel James was taken out of game with MU up 24-22. He was playing great. Jones came in and IU went on 8-0 run with Jones missed three, turnover and another drive in lane blocked. After that, lead went to 18 and it was done.
MU I thought much better offense with James on floor not Jones. Each played 20 minutes:
Jones zero points, 3 assists
James 16 points, 3 assists, 2 steals.
Thought Hamilton was most improved, but turnovers, ugh
Norman, Clark, and Owens at end of rotation as of now, maybe 2 minutes each half. A high recruit, Owens I guess under performing with Stevens clearly ahead of him.
See how Shaka adjusts after a stinker. Long season
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 09, 2025, 03:57:05 PMWho are they going to play instead? Tre?
Sean will have to play out of necessity. Nigel looks very real but he can't go 40. He might not even be able to go 25 this early in his career. He will have his own Freshman growing pains too.
Sean, like Derrick of yesteryear, would be a good back up, capable of 10-12 minutes a game. James looks significantly better IMO. Start him, let Jones sub in.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 09, 2025, 05:20:23 PMSean, like Derrick of yesteryear, would be a good back up, capable of 10-12 minutes a game. James looks significantly better IMO. Start him, let Jones sub in.
Ya. I'm fine with that, but Sean's still gonna play.
Some of our fans are truly the worst but I suppose that's true for every team.
Maybe it make make sense to see how this and next year (that's right) progress before losing your sh*t.
Hope MU is competitive against power conference opponents.
Today MU looked like a buy game for Indiana.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 09, 2025, 05:28:45 PMSome of our fans are truly the worst but I suppose that's true for every team.
Maybe it make make sense to see how this and next year (that's right) progress before losing your sh*t.
Just enjoying the ride!
The NIL era has really shortened the amount of teams capable of winning a National Championship every year. It's harder to compete at the top and much more confusing in the middle.
Just excited to see this team develop and hopefully position themselves to be in the mix for something special later on.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 09, 2025, 05:35:10 PMThe NIL era has really shortened the amount of teams capable of winning a National Championship every year.
The opposite is true IMHO.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 09, 2025, 04:02:53 PMYes feelings are important. I feel this team has big time issues.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 09, 2025, 03:57:05 PMWho are they going to play instead? Tre?
Sean will have to play out of necessity. Nigel looks very real but he can't go 40. He might not even be able to go 25 this early in his career. He will have his own Freshman growing pains too.
Shaka should've never talked him out of transferring
Today was awful. I have some close friends that are delusional IU fans.
Absolutely fair to have questions and concerns but, my God, some of you are absolutely nuts.
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2025, 05:50:16 PMThe opposite is true IMHO.
You think? Feels the opposite for me.
The teams might change everso slightly each year but it seems like the amount of realistic champs has shrunk. Idk.
One of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.
I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?
And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 09, 2025, 06:15:45 PMOne of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.
I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?
It's a legit question.
Tower, I think the thread title should've been "Hoosier daddy".
To me, a big difference between this year and the last couple is that the role for each guy is still evolving. Shaka loves to preach about "playing your role to the maximum" and I like the concept. Roles have generally been pretty well defined entering each of Shaka's years at MU. This year, though, there are more moving parts and younger guys might be truly pushing for playing time over guys who've been in the program longer. While that might be good for the long term, it is a challenge now.
It almost was.
Or Hoosier leader going to be?
Quote from: DoctorV on November 09, 2025, 03:31:42 PMTo my eyes, this game was more about what Indiana did than what Marquette didn't do.
A Shaka defense doesn't give up 100, but most offenses don't shoot 50% from 3 on that volume.
I saw some poor rotations and there were more open looks than there needed to be, but there were substantially more well contested hand in the face type 3P makes by the Hoosiers.
Sometimes, when your opponent makes those it can become very deflating and shake your confidence/energy.
On top of that, I rarely if ever complain about the refs and they didn't screw MU, but that was the most whistle happy and choppy game I've witnessed in person. Can't believe MU was in the 1 and 1 before the 15 min mark in the 1H and still got destroyed.
Just a strange game in a lot of ways.
As for our guys, to me the biggest shock was that they couldn't turn that team over or get them flustered at all, but again when you make 14 3s and lead comfortably for 30 mins it's hard to get shook.
It's also very strange that MU was clearly much quicker and more athletic all over the court and got blown out. Let's not forget that Indiana starts 5 seniors. They won't shoot like that more than a few times all season, and they will have to shoot 40% from 3 to win a lot of tough B10 games because they will be athletically inferior to their opponent, but it bodes very well for DeVries that they don't turn it over and that their mid major guys look to be high major players.
Those aren't excuses, and Shaka does have a problem. He has b2b classes with what *could be only 1-2 BE starting type of players- Zaide and Sean should hold their own, Parham too more often than not hopefully- and that's going to present a problem.
Not to beat a dead horse but he really needs Parham and DO to figure it out and get that sophomore life that Zaide got in the 2H of last year, or else it'll get tough.
I digress. My main takeaway today is that it was a pretty anomalous game, and I'm not sure how useful the tape will be outside of showing missed rotations and lack of help on defense. Otherwise, throw that one away.
Oh, and Nigel James can play.
And Tucker DeVries is a jerk but he's got some solid old man game for the college level
My only criticism of the refs is that they called a very tight game for most of the first half and then all of a sudden what were fouls were no longer fouls.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 09, 2025, 07:05:22 PMMy only criticism of the refs is that they called a very tight game for most of the first half and then all of a sudden what were fouls were no longer fouls.
That's how I felt about the reffing. It wasn't
bad per se, but it seemed very inconsistent. Called much tighter at the beginning of each half than later.
It was a typically, awfully reffed game.
If it had been the best-reffed game in the history of basketball, we still would have been crushed. The final score might even have been more lopsided.
The difference between Sean vs Nigel's stat line was pretty stark. Shaka will be loyal to a point. Hopefully Sean gets it going shortly. Need two good point guards on the team. But Nigel needs to play more minutes regardless of who starts. Too valuable.
Quote from: PointWarrior on November 09, 2025, 02:10:38 PMJust posted in game thread:
Marquette's continuity roster got its ass kicked by Indiana's portal roster.
Yup. This is what scares me.
It was an awful game after the first 10 minutes.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 09, 2025, 06:15:45 PMOne of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.
I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?
And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.
This is a very good point.
I've discussed this in the past and caught some heat for my opinion on it, but there's two points I'd like to make that I think have merit
A) Shaka won a BE Title and BET in a season that his team was picked to finish near the bottom of the conference, and it came very early in his MU tenure and in a season where he "stuck with his guys and believed in them/developed them."
I don't put that in quotes because I think it isn't true, it's very true, but there is also a part of it that is just Tyler Kolek/Omax/Oso and their God given talents coming to pasture in one beautifully perfect season.
So, when you see improvement like that from one year to the next, to that extreme and it works to perfection, it follows suit that you would try to, and think you are able to, duplicate it to some extent and some form. This isn't always the case, however. Different players have different abilities, and the year to year improvements aren't linear and don't usually happen to the extent that they did that season.
I don't think the staff is "overrating" the talent that they have on their own team, but they might be "overrating" their ability to make that talent rise to the top year in and year out, if that makes sense, and part of that bravado comes from what happened with Tyler/Oso/Kam etc.
B) I mentioned this with Damarius last season, and it likely applies with Caedin and SJ22 as well. I think it's pretty difficult for the staff to judge which talent will rise to the top or "hide from the lights" on the big stage when the ball is tipped. When you have 15 guys practicing amongst each other and not facing outside competition for 3+ months, and in Sean's case much longer, it's easy to fall into the 'trap' of man this guy looks amazing out there, he's gonna be great right when he steps on the court.
It happened with Damarius last year in the open scrimmages- many, including myself after seeing him for several games, said he would be the next great at Marquette. There is no saying he still can't, but did we all "overrate" what we saw in him or was part of it that he was an athletically gifted and extremely smooth player that dominated some of his less athletic teammates in a no pressure scrimmage setting?
In the same token, Caedin is the strongest interior presence on the team, so he spends months bully balling his teammates and shines in a practice setting, and works his arse off, so it's easy to think man this kid is ready to take the leap.
Not to disparage those two kids but the brights lights are a whole new ballgame.
I also think Shaka once mentioned that Tre could be an all BE pg, so it happens.
I've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.
You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.
Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning
Quote from: wadesworld on November 09, 2025, 09:15:29 PMNigel? Starting for IU? Today?
No.
You may be right. I think he's better than Enright though. So wouldn't take long.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 09, 2025, 03:43:42 PMWhy was our 3fga/fga % so low when playing from behind most of the game? Staff. o confident? ugh
Such a grammatically poor post I can't even figure out what the corrections need to be here.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 09, 2025, 09:05:43 PMThis is a very good point.
I've discussed this in the past and caught some heat for my opinion on it, but there's two points I'd like to make that I think have merit
A) Shaka won a BE Title and BET in a season that his team was picked to finish near the bottom of the conference, and it came very early in his MU tenure and in a season where he "stuck with his guys and believed in them/developed them."
I don't put that in quotes because I think it isn't true, it's very true, but there is also a part of it that is just Tyler Kolek/Omax/Oso and their God given talents coming to pasture in one beautifully perfect season.
So, when you see improvement like that from one year to the next, to that extreme and it works to perfection, it follows suit that you would try to, and think you are able to, duplicate it to some extent and some form. This isn't always the case, however. Different players have different abilities, and the year to year improvements aren't linear and don't usually happen to the extent that they did that season.
I don't think the staff is "overrating" the talent that they have on their own team, but they might be "overrating" their ability to make that talent rise to the top year in and year out, if that makes sense, and part of that bravado comes from what happened with Tyler/Oso/Kam etc.
B) I mentioned this with Damarius last season, and it likely applies with Caedin and SJ22 as well. I think it's pretty difficult for the staff to judge which talent will rise to the top or "hide from the lights" on the big stage when the ball is tipped. When you have 15 guys practicing amongst each other and not facing outside competition for 3+ months, and in Sean's case much longer, it's easy to fall into the 'trap' of man this guy looks amazing out there, he's gonna be great right when he steps on the court.
It happened with Damarius last year in the open scrimmages- many, including myself after seeing him for several games, said he would be the next great at Marquette. There is no saying he still can't, but did we all "overrate" what we saw in him or was part of it that he was an athletically gifted and extremely smooth player that dominated some of his less athletic teammates in a no pressure scrimmage setting?
In the same token, Caedin is the strongest interior presence on the team, so he spends months bully balling his teammates and shines in a practice setting, and works his arse off, so it's easy to think man this kid is ready to take the leap.
Not to disparage those two kids but the brights lights are a whole new ballgame.
I also think Shaka once mentioned that Tre could be an all BE pg, so it happens.
I've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.
You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.
Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning
All good points. I think it's worth noting, as you mentioned, that while the true flashes of stardom often show up early, sometimes when an underclassman steps up, it's partly a reflection of playing alongside the older, established talent on the roster. It's one thing to produce as a 6th, 7th, or 8th guy with that support around you, but when you are suddenly thrusted into a bigger role without that buffer, it's not always easy to hit the same mark.
MU was fortunate to be able to have new guys elevate and it was something we could see coming for the last couple of years. This year there was a big question mark. Chase has been the obvious choice, and while he's a very solid player, the overall depth and experience may not mirror the recent past.
I suppose it's ideal to just enjoy the progress of some young hopefuls like James and not get too high or low.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 09, 2025, 09:23:13 PMAll good points. I think it's worth noting, as you mentioned, that while the true flashes of stardom often show up early, sometimes when an underclassman steps up, it's partly a reflection of playing alongside the older, established talent on the roster. It's one thing to produce as a 6th, 7th, or 8th guy with that support around you, but when you are suddenly thrusted into a bigger role without that buffer, it's not always easy to hit the same mark.
MU was fortunate to be able to have new guys elevate and it was something we could see coming for the last couple of years. This year there was a big question mark. Chase has been the obvious choice, and while he's a very solid player, the overall depth and experience may not mirror the recent past.
I suppose it's ideal to just enjoy the progress of some young hopefuls like James and not get too high or low.
Yup. Definitely more ideal, but also much easier said than done.
I'm passionate about sports, I don't want to ever lose that passion.
Should we all just chill a bit? Sure. Would it be as enjoyable? Debatable 😂
Quote from: DoctorV on November 09, 2025, 09:05:43 PMI've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.
You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.
Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning
I'm not ancient by this forum's standard but this actually had me thinking of everyone I'd call a "great" or even "leader" since I started following MU in 08-09
3 amigos
Lazar
Jimmy
DJO & Jae
Vander
Then program died off when Jamil Gardner Derrick and Juan were all great role players but not take over quality guys but more great groups of robins to someones Batman
Then Markus & Sam
So i guess this completely subjective non data based analysis is just affirming out that (outside of 2017), every year of decent to good Marquette basketball probably since the amigos were sophomores had an extremely experienced "go to guy(s)" and you're right we all saw it coming with that person stepping into the that position. Chase may need to go full Lazar to get this team over the hump.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2025, 09:37:50 PMI'm not ancient by this forum's standard but this actually had me thinking of everyone I'd call a "great" or even "leader" since I started following MU in 08-09
3 amigos
Lazar
Jimmy
DJO & Jae
Vander
Then program died off when Jamil Gardner Derrick and Juan were all great role players but not take over quality guys but more great groups of robins to someones Batman
Then Markus & Sam
So i guess this completely subjective non data based analysis is just affirming out that (outside of 2017), every year of decent to good Marquette basketball probably since the amigos were sophomores had an extremely experienced "go to guy(s)" and you're right we all saw it coming with that person stepping into the that position. Chase may need to go full Lazar to get this team over the hump.
I agree with the list, but you omitted a few of the most recent ones, unless you just didn't mention them because I did.
Tyler Kolek, Oso Ighodaro, and Kam Jones.
I'd remove Sam because although he was a great player while here, I don't think of him amongst the "greats."
Markus is a no brainer as he was transformational, but the combo of not winning plus leaving keeps Sam off the list for me.
As for Chase, it is starting to seem like he might have to go surefire first team All BE and possible BEPoY type of nuke for this years team to be very good. He's a fantastic player, I've always liked him, but it would take an extraordinary season for him to make that list imo. E8/F4 type of season
Quote from: DoctorV on November 09, 2025, 10:28:26 PMI agree with the list, but you omitted a few of the most recent ones, unless you just didn't mention them because I did.
Tyler Kolek, Oso Ighodaro, and Kam Jones.
I'd remove Sam because although he was a great player while here, I don't think of him amongst the "greats."
Markus is a no brainer as he was transformational, but the combo of not winning plus leaving keeps Sam off the list for me.
As for Chase, it is starting to seem like he might have to go surefire first team All BE and possible BEPoY type of nuke for this years team to be very good. He's a fantastic player, I've always liked him, but it would take an extraordinary season for him to make that list imo. E8/F4 type of season
Because you mentioned them I didn't include them.
I'll give you Sam not belonging though as much as I like Oso, I don't think he's on that list any more so than Sam (except for the fact that Oso is forever an MU guy and the other is just someone we used to know) that list has 3 Big East POYs, and 7 of those guys were at least honorable mention all Americans once and of the 3 that weren't one had two of the most clutch shots in MUBB history, the next got us over the first weekend drought, and the other (Wes) you could probably argue doesn't belong relative to the others.
Where can we get the plus minus stats for the game? Obviously most players will be minus this game but it would be interesting to see. This year, without clear standout alphas (minus Chase this early in the season), leaders, go to players etc, the stat may actually be a little more telling than usual. Especially given all the lineup combinations.
Skaka's post game presser.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=shaka+smart+postgame+interview&refig=6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0&pc=U531&pq=shaka+smart+post&pqlth=16&assgl=30&sgcn=shaka+smart+postgame+interview&qs=UT&sgtpv=UT&smvpcn=0&swbcn=1&sctcn=0&sc=1-16&sp=1&ghc=0&cvid=6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0&clckatsg=1&hsmssg=0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpostgame%2binterview%26form%3dANNTH1%26refig%3d6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0%26pc%3dU531%26pq%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpost%26pqlth%3d16%26assgl%3d30%26sgcn%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpostgame%2binterview%26qs%3dUT%26sgtpv%3dUT%26smvpcn%3d0%26swbcn%3d1%26sctcn%3d0%26sc%3d1-16%26sp%3d1%26ghc%3d0%26cvid%3d6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0%26clckatsg%3d1%26hsmssg%3d0&mmscn=vwrc&mid=530A2F4B867A79E1E3AB530A2F4B867A79E1E3AB&FORM=WRVORC&ntb=1&msockid=6c1701eebe2e11f088ad7cd2a6629fa4
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2025, 02:09:48 PM3. Sean will figure out how how to play point. Getting into the paint without a plan for the next play.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Sean strikes me as a 10 mpg change of pace guy, not a 28 mpg starting PG.
This game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 10, 2025, 07:18:25 AMI'm not sure I agree with this. Sean strikes me as a 10 mpg change of pace guy, not a 28 mpg starting PG.
I get that. That is what he was pre-injury.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2025, 07:25:45 AMThis game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.
not sure what Maryland presents, but Purdue, Oklahoma and Wisconsin present experienced, talented teams. If...big IF, MU enters conference play with 4 L's, not sure they play much better than .500 ball on the season. If so, doesn't it force the HC to rethink how a roster is assembled? MU has a roster of solid guys, it seems. Rep the University at a high level. BUT, taking the no-offer-development-guy will have to change. Or, accept what it is.
Quote from: mug644 on November 09, 2025, 06:40:17 PMTower, I think the thread title should've been "Hoosier daddy".
At halftime I figured the title would be something like "Mother Tucker" or "Tucking Brutal." Then we got DeVries in foul trouble and let another mid-major transfer go off on us.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2025, 07:25:45 AMThis game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.
so is this going to be the new "our academic standards are too high" excuse? Do you think none of our guys are getting NIL? At a minimum, they're all getting six figures from revenue share.
And lets look at the blue blood programs where the "semi pro" guys who played more than 10 minutes and crushed us came from:
Drake/West Virginia
Sam Houston St
Drake/DePaul
Davidson
Troy
true freshman
UT Chatanooga/Florida
North Florida
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2025, 07:25:45 AMThis game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.
Why?
By the way, it's not "semi-pro." It's "pro."
Maybe the next time we play Indiana it should be in Alaska not the United Center.
Nigel starting the 2nd half over Sean was telling. Shaka sees what many of us see too.
The result sucked, but it is still November. I see no need to worry yet. Yesterday Shaka really shortened the rotation in the 2nd half, he learned who his best guys are. That will help going into the Maryland and Dayton games.
If we are still getting blown out like this after New Years I will be a lot more concerned.
Quote from: JTJ3 on November 10, 2025, 08:26:55 AMNigel starting the 2nd half over Sean was telling. Shaka sees what many of us see too.
The result sucked, but it is still November. I see no need to worry yet. Yesterday Shaka really shortened the rotation in the 2nd half, he learned who his best guys are. That will help going into the Maryland and Dayton games.
If we are still getting blown out like this after New Years I will be a lot more concerned.
I just hope Shaka isn't chalking it up to a just a one off. I'm fine with giving Sean another mid major game to prove he can fix his decision making but Shakas got to give him very little room for error next Saturday against Maryland.
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 07:26:27 AMI get that. That is what he was pre-injury.
Yeah, but I think that may be his ceiling at this level. not a good shooter, too small to get a shot off in traffic and not great vision when he drives. Hope I'm wrong and you are right. I think his body goes faster than his brain, if you know what I mean.
we gonna reach a point in this season where im calling to play sean jones less than adrien stevens and michael phillips.. Just beat maryland and get a lineup settled for big east play so we can go .500
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 10, 2025, 08:56:25 AMYeah, but I think that may be his ceiling at this level. not a good shooter, too small to get a shot off in traffic and not great vision when he drives. Hope I'm wrong and you are right. I think his body goes faster than his brain, if you know what I mean.
The problem is just as much on the other side of the ball. IU took advantage of every switch he made on a bigger body and caused a mis-match.
What an awful game. I expected us to be a bubble team at best with hopes of making the tournament, but this team has a long way to go to get into that position. 3 games are not enough to know where this team will be at the end of the year, but it is enough to see what our current issues are.
1. Defending.
A lot of it is just a lack of communication and team defending in general. Easier to turn over bad teams than P5 teams. With the youth of this team, this will be an issue all year.
2. Half-court offense.
This team does not have reliable 3-point shooters. Stop our transition game and you stop our ability to score easily. I don't see a single player that can consistently bail us out in our half-court offense like a DeVries. I like the improvement we are seeing out of Hamilton down low with an inside presence, but he is still a year away, especially defensively.
3. Lack of significant improvement from returning players.
Significant being the key word. Chase has lived up to expectations. Hamilton has improved. I don't know if you can say the same for anyone else. We need more out of Zaide, Sean, Parham and Owens. Zaide is half-way there, but his ceiling seems like a great secondary player. The other 3 have been disappointments early on. That's a big problem
4. Youth.
The future is bright for the 2027-28 season and beyond but it's still too inexperienced. Lots of growing pains. Very happy with what Nigel brings. He is a gamer and should probably start this year going forward over Sean based on overall ability.
Ultimately, I think finishing in the top half of the Big East standings and having a chance to make the tournament will make this a successful season with where this team is right now.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 09, 2025, 06:15:45 PMOne of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.
I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?
And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.
This is one of my biggest concerns. DoctorV covered much of it, but I'll expound. My evaluation of guys we didn't see prior impact from comes largely from what the staff has been saying. They've given the impression that Sean has been a Big East ready starter for the better part of the last year. We've heard for two consecutive years about the impact Caedin would make. We've heard how Owens was going to be a dude from the jump.
This is the same staff that in the past told us how much we would love Tyler, how great Oso would be, how Kam was going to be an all-time scorer, how we'd see Stevie's tenacity come through in wins, how Jop was going to physically improve. All those things came to be, so there was reason to trust what they said when it came to the next generation of players.
There were legit statistical reasons to believe in Chase, Zaide, and Parham. But thus far, only two of those three have come through. We played 26 different lineups against Indiana; I've yet to see why anything other than NJ fouling out should take him off the court. It's one game, so there's time to turn things around, but there are definitely some worrying things around this roster.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2025, 05:35:37 AMWhere can we get the plus minus stats for the game? Obviously most players will be minus this game but it would be interesting to see. This year, without clear standout alphas (minus Chase this early in the season), leaders, go to players etc, the stat may actually be a little more telling than usual. Especially given all the lineup combinations.
Sean -28 - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13
Nigel James only positive at +8
You have to be a special passer or shooter or finisher to be 5'10" and effective, especially given the obvious defensive liabilities with being short. You can't just be quick. I still think it's too early to judge Sean after 3 games back from his injury hiatus however. But I, like others, am concerned about him being the lead guard, especially when the backup looks like he's the real deal.
Also, JFp61 mentioned Phillips briefly. I agree that I hope he develops quickly because he has obvious shooting skills and height that will be needed sooner rather than later.
As I said before the season, it will be fun to see this team develop over the season. The real talent on the roster needs to keep rising to the top. Just need that arrow pointing up (win a few against the conference big boys or at least look competent) when it's all said and done.
Thanks MUbiz.
I think that in the NIL, transfer happy world, we've forgotten what it was like to have "lost" recruiting classes and to get excited for underclassmen to grow up. I know that no one else does it that way anymore, but Shaka clearly wants to, so as fans we kind of need to party like its the 2010s. The Freshman and Sophomore classes have a ton of promise if Shaka can keep them together.
For this year, Chase and Ben have steadily improved, but I have trouble seeing them being cold blooded alphas on a ranked team, and that Junior class provided precious little yesterday. If this team doesn't start getting more quality out of the Juniors, we'll probably see even more run for the underclassmen as the year wears on, but its going to make for a very up and down year.
Quote from: MUbiz on November 10, 2025, 09:14:00 AMSean -28 - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13
Nigel James only positive at +8
It felt like every bit of -28 too. Ouch. Disappointing and I feel bad for him after all the work to come back, but Sean is in overdrive every minute out there. Before the injury he had finally learned to play under control and use bursts of his tremendous speed as a change up. Hard to see the bobbles, lost footing, indecision...time after time on Sunday. Actually reminded me of when Jamal Cain got into that rut sophomore year, I believe, when it seemed he couldn't touch the ball without turning it over.
I haven't lost faith in Sean and have to think a lot of this is just real game rust and over-excitement impacting him. Confidence has to be affected too given the struggles. It is early and I still believe he will find it, but Shaka can't ignore what James is bringing. Maybe Sean can re-find himself and his confidence in more of a supporting role with a little less pressure.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 10, 2025, 09:30:09 AMI think that in the NIL, transfer happy world, we've forgotten what it was like to have "lost" recruiting classes and to get excited for underclassmen to grow up. I know that no one else does it that way anymore, but Shaka clearly wants to, so as fans we kind of need to party like its the 2010s. The Freshman and Sophomore classes have a ton of promise if Shaka can keep them together.
For this year, Chase and Ben have steadily improved, but I have trouble seeing them being cold blooded alphas on a ranked team, and that Junior class provided precious little yesterday. If this team doesn't start getting more quality out of the Juniors, we'll probably see even more run for the underclassmen as the year wears on, but its going to make for a very up and down year.
The sophomores? Parham, Owens and Hamilton? Man, I hope so...but I'm not sure about that.
This game was like watching boys playing against men - maybe the worst beatdown I have ever seen an MU team take. There was no aspect of the game that was encouraging:
1. On offense, a lot dribbling but very little passing. A one-on-one offense.
2. Sean Jones playing hard but with no apparent plan or purpose. Not showing any real point guard talents yet. Nigel James may be a freshman and will make freshman mistakes, but he looks like the best hope for the point guard spot.
3. Demarius Owens looks completely lost.
4. Parham showing promise and needs to be even more aggressive.
5. No real reliable outside shooting.
6. Was hoping Chase would be the leader of this group, but it doesn't look like it so far. He is the best player on both ends of the court, but that does not mean he is the leader. So far, I don't see that player.
Hopefully this was a one-off game that can be a good learning experience.
Quote from: Viper on November 10, 2025, 07:48:25 AMnot sure what Maryland presents, but Purdue, Oklahoma and Wisconsin present experienced, talented teams. If...big IF, MU enters conference play with 4 L's, not sure they play much better than .500 ball on the season. If so, doesn't it force the HC to rethink how a roster is assembled? MU has a roster of solid guys, it seems. Rep the University at a high level. BUT, taking the no-offer-development-guy will have to change. Or, accept what it is.
No, a potentially disappointing year will not force Shaka to reconsider his current roster construction philosophy, nor should it.
With 15 scholarships and redshirts available, taking development guys won't change either, nor should it.
Yes, yesterday really sucked and it's completely fair to have concerns and questions. But I'm seeing an awful lot of overreaction and hyperbole right now, which I guess shouldn't be that surprising.
I believe in the talent of Parham and Owens, the freshman class looks good, next year's incoming class looks good, and Shaka is in on a lot of talent right now. Multiple high-ceiling recruits have stated that his retention philosophy is a major reason in why they've committed to Marquette.
Even some of the best programs have down years and, perhaps this will be one of ours, but I still see the arrow pointing up in regard to the future.
Quote from: rgoode57 on November 10, 2025, 09:37:57 AMThis game was like watching boys playing against men - maybe the worst beatdown I have ever seen an MU team take. There was no aspect of the game that was encouraging:
1. On offense, a lot dribbling but very little passing. A one-on-one offense.
2. Sean Jones playing hard but with no apparent plan or purpose. Not showing any real point guard talents yet. Nigel James may be a freshman and will make freshman mistakes, but he looks like the best hope for the point guard spot.
3. Demarius Owens looks completely lost.
4. Parham showing promise and needs to be even more aggressive.
5. No real reliable outside shooting.
6. Was hoping Chase would be the leader of this group, but it doesn't look like it so far. He is the best player on both ends of the court, but that does not mean he is the leader. So far, I don't see that player.
Hopefully this was a one-off game that can be a good learning experience.
To put some numbers behind this (yes I am aware its only 3 games) but we are shooting 43.3% from field - good for 248th in country. We are shooting 30.2% from 3 - good for 244th in country. These starting trends need to reverse - and quickly.
Yes I know our defense is the bigger problem (that no one saw coming into season) but if we even play average defense and do not improve our shooting, we are looking at the crown dead in the face.
Additionally, Sean Jones has a 24.8% Turnover ratio, Owens has a 31% TO ratio, and Caedin has 29.7% TO ratio. We can throw DOs out the window because he is not playing much, but having your starting PG and 5 man with those types of TO percentages is death to the offense.
Sorry double post for some reason
Quote from: The Sultan on November 10, 2025, 09:37:41 AMThe sophomores? Parham, Owens and Hamilton? Man, I hope so...but I'm not sure about that.
I think that by the start of the conference season 2026-2027, Parham really puts it all together. I know it feels a long way off, but I think he's going to continue to struggle a bit as a role player. Once he's in a spot where his usage % goes up, I think he gets better and better. Hamilton I think will just continue to improve and be an extremely solid frontcourt presence as an upper classman. Owens remains a bit of a wildcard.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2025, 07:25:45 AMThis game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.
What Sleazeball Pitino said.
Quote from: Viper on November 10, 2025, 07:48:25 AMnot sure what Maryland presents, but Purdue, Oklahoma and Wisconsin present experienced, talented teams. If...big IF, MU enters conference play with 4 L's, not sure they play much better than .500 ball on the season. If so, doesn't it force the HC to rethink how a roster is assembled? MU has a roster of solid guys, it seems. Rep the University at a high level. BUT, taking the no-offer-development-guy will have to change. Or, accept what it is.
Shaka won't rethink that
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 10, 2025, 10:10:29 AMI think that by the start of the conference season 2026-2027, Parham really puts it all together. I know it feels a long way off, but I think he's going to continue to struggle a bit as a role player. Once he's in a spot where his usage % goes up, I think he gets better and better. Hamilton I think will just continue to improve and be an extremely solid frontcourt presence as an upper classman. Owens remains a bit of a wildcard.
I like what you said about Royce here. I think he should be getting major minutes. He has impact starter potential.Let him try to reach it!
A loss like yesterday can help you learn a lot about a team. It can also help the players learn a lot about themselves.
One game at a time but there is a path to being 6-1 headed back for another go around in Chicago. Saturday could be a huge swing game for the season.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 10, 2025, 09:43:29 AMNo, a potentially disappointing year will not force Shaka to reconsider his current roster construction philosophy, nor should it.
With 15 scholarships and redshirts available, taking development guys won't change either, nor should it.
Yes, yesterday really sucked and it's completely fair to have concerns and questions. But I'm seeing an awful lot of overreaction and hyperbole right now, which I guess shouldn't be that surprising.
I believe in the talent of Parham and Owens, the freshman class looks good, next year's incoming class looks good, and Shaka is in on a lot of talent right now. Multiple high-ceiling recruits have stated that his retention philosophy is a major reason in why they've committed to Marquette.
Even some of the best programs have down years and, perhaps this will be one of ours, but I still see the arrow pointing up in regard to the future.
... "No, a potentially disappointing year will not force Shaka to reconsider his current roster construction philosophy, nor should it.
With 15 scholarships and redshirts available, taking development guys won't change either, nor should it." Why? As a hypothetical, things go south on the season, would adjusting, i.e. go the portal route, move on from a player or two, not happen? Does it matter how many scholly guys you have if player talent doesn't result in wins?
Quote from: MUbiz on November 10, 2025, 09:14:00 AMSean -28 - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13
Nigel James only positive at +8
Even as limiting as 1-game plus/minus is as an evaluation tool, this is eye-opening.
Quote from: MUbiz on November 10, 2025, 09:14:00 AMSean -28 - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13
Nigel James only positive at +8
Yes, +/- has its limitations, doesn't always give a good reflection of real events, blah, blah, blah.
Still and all -28 compared to +8? Shaka has to take a long look at what's going on. And,
IMO those numbers were pretty reflective of what we were seeing. I agree that it's disappointing to see 22 playing so badly, but what we are getting is the Bad Sean with the same flaws we've seen before. I'm not one of those "Get him out of there" guys and I am
confident that Shaka will give Sean a long leash, but it will be interesting to watch the
minutes as the season progresses.
Quote from: Viper on November 10, 2025, 10:28:02 AM... "No, a potentially disappointing year will not force Shaka to reconsider his current roster construction philosophy, nor should it.
With 15 scholarships and redshirts available, taking development guys won't change either, nor should it." Why? As a hypothetical, things go south on the season, would adjusting, i.e. go the portal route, move on from a player or two, not happen? Does it matter how many scholly guys you have if player talent doesn't result in wins?
Why? With 15 scholarships, you have a lot more flexibility to take a developmental guy like a Clark or Hamilton, redshirt them, and have them in the program for 5 years. There are more than enough roster spots where taking 1 developmental guy every year or two shouldn't impede the program from building really good teams.
Hamilton has 3 years left and Clark has 4. Might it make sense to see how their careers turn out before whining about taking developmental guys? If the # of scholarships was more limited, that criticism would make a lot more sense to me but not with 15.
And no, why would one potential down year cause Shaka to abandon everything he believes in and has sold recruits on regarding the Marquette program? How do you think he's going to look to the returning and incoming players?
Jesus, these overreactions are something else.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 10, 2025, 11:14:50 AMWhy? With 15 scholarships, you have a lot more flexibility to take a developmental guy like a Clark or Hamilton, redshirt them, and have them in the program for 5 years. There are more than enough roster spots where taking 1 developmental guy every year or two shouldn't impede the program from building really good teams.
Hamilton has 3 years left and Clark has 4. Might it make sense to see how their careers turn out before whining about taking developmental guys? If the # of scholarships was more limited, that criticism would make a lot more sense to me but not with 15.
And no, why would one potential down year cause Shaka to abandon everything he believes in and has sold recruits on regarding the Marquette program? How do you think he's going to look to the returning and incoming players?
Jesus, these overreactions are something else.
I think you are guilty of an equally misguided overreaction to suggestions MU use the transfer portal. I think Shaka is a great, yes great, coach and he will continue to grow and adjust as all great coaches do. I think he will adjust by adding a few transfers going forward in addition to his recruit and develop strategy. 2 time National champion Dabo Sweeney has learned that eschewing the transfer portal does not work and I believe Shaka will too.
I still like what he tried and believe it was a valid attempt to build a roster, but sometimes things don't work so you learn and adapt.
15 scholarships filled for next season.
Shak... Shak...Shakagone, let me rock you, let me rock you Shakagone ...
I don't see him running off players. Coach Smart is too invested in his process.
The only hope for the portal lovers is if 1 or more of the 10 players between 6'3 and 6'8 looks at the numbers situation and doesn't like their chances.
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 11:38:30 AM15 scholarships filled for next season.
Shak... Shak...Shakagone, let me rock you, let me rock you Shakagone ...
I don't see him running off players. Coach Smart is too invested in his process.
The only hope for the portal lovers is if 1 or more of the 10 players between 6'3 and 6'8 looks at the numbers situation and doesn't like their chances.
I mean... if you bench 2 juniors for freshmen who are as good as them they might leave. You can be invested in the process and still do the smart thing. (play young guys if the are good/or better than your guys)
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 11:38:30 AM15 scholarships filled for next season.
Shak... Shak...Shakagone, let me rock you, let me rock you Shakagone ...
I don't see him running off players. Coach Smart is too invested in his process.
The only hope for the portal lovers is if 1 or more of the 10 players between 6'3 and 6'8 looks at the numbers situation and doesn't like their chances.
Didn't Ellis, Wrightsil, Amadou, and itejere essentially get run off? I agree I don't think he will, but part of me wonders if he essentially doubled down on his core for a few good years, people noticed and then he adopted it as a feature of his iteration of the MU program.
This season you are going to see that. It has already been seen. It is possible that members of this team follow Ellis, Itejere, and Amadou.
But Shaka isn't going to push them.
If Itejere had been pushed, I doubt his HS coach would have called about Phillips.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 10, 2025, 11:43:47 AMDidn't Ellis and itejere essentially get run off? I agree I don't think he will, but part of me wonders if he essentially doubled down on his core for a few good years, people noticed and then he adopted it as a feature of his iteration of the MU program.
What do you mean by run off? I believe in both cases that they could have stayed with the program had they be confortable with a likely diminished role. I don't think either were told they had to leave.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 10, 2025, 10:21:31 AMI like what you said about Royce here. I think he should be getting major minutes. He has impact starter potential.Let him try to reach it!
A loss like yesterday can help you learn a lot about a team. It can also help the players learn a lot about themselves.
One game at a time but there is a path to being 6-1 headed back for another go around in Chicago. Saturday could be a huge swing game for the season.
Relationships/culture be damned - if I have the pedigree of parham and sit behind Caedin Hamilton, I'm high tailing out to greener pastures on the first train from town.
Quote from: panda on November 10, 2025, 11:48:27 AMRelationships/culture be damned - if I have the pedigree of parham and sit behind Caedin Hamilton, I'm high tailing out to greener pastures on the first train from town.
Royce Parham averages more minutes than Caedin Hamilton, but yes, I understand what you are saying.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 10, 2025, 11:48:22 AMWhat do you mean by run off? I believe in both cases that they could have stayed with the program had they be confortable with a likely diminished role. I don't think either were told they had to leave.
Didn't we over sign recruits? We needed people to leave if I recall correctly.
Quote from: panda on November 10, 2025, 11:48:27 AMRelationships/culture be damned - if I have the pedigree of parham and sit behind Caedin Hamilton, I'm high tailing out to greener pastures on the first train from town.
If I'm Parham I'm learning how to stay in front of my man defensively and learning defensive rotations. After I figure that out I'll worry about the minutes I'm getting.
Quote from: panda on November 10, 2025, 11:48:27 AMRelationships/culture be damned - if I have the pedigree of parham and sit behind Caedin Hamilton, I'm high tailing out to greener pastures on the first train from town.
That will be the same case for Nigel James if Sean Jones doesn't start to become more impactful. Shaka is no dummy as evidenced by starting Nigel in the second half yesterday.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 11:27:58 AMI think you are guilty of an equally misguided overreaction to suggestions MU use the transfer portal. I think Shaka is a great, yes great, coach and he will continue to grow and adjust as all great coaches do. I think he will adjust by adding a few transfers going forward in addition to his recruit and develop strategy. 2 time National champion Dabo Sweeney has learned that eschewing the transfer portal does not work and I believe Shaka will too.
I still like what he tried and believe it was a valid attempt to build a roster, but sometimes things don't work so you learn and adapt.
IMHO Marcus Freeman needs to be the role model for Shaka and the xfer portal. Freeman has said "We will not major in the xfer portal, but we will minor in it" ie taking xfers when they make sense to take. It does not mean 8-10 new guys every year.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 10, 2025, 11:55:37 AMDidn't we over sign recruits? We needed people to leave if I recall correctly.
When Emarion announced his transfer, that is what was being said. However OMax declared for the draft like ten days later.
So I guess the questions are, when did Emarion make his decision? When did OMax tell the staff he was leaving?
But even they didn't sign Caedin until the summer.
Scored 77 points in 76 possessions. The live ball turnovers killed them though defensively. I was sitting on the end and you can see the "Nevada" offense, lots of open lanes for drives with lots of free throws. Defensively, Devries gets his 4th, they are up 13 and MU went to that 3-2 high zone and just let them dribble and got a 3 and a dunk on back to back possessions. Thought they could have come out and pressured IU more at that point.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 11:27:58 AMI think you are guilty of an equally misguided overreaction to suggestions MU use the transfer portal. I think Shaka is a great, yes great, coach and he will continue to grow and adjust as all great coaches do. I think he will adjust by adding a few transfers going forward in addition to his recruit and develop strategy. 2 time National champion Dabo Sweeney has learned that eschewing the transfer portal does not work and I believe Shaka will too.
I still like what he tried and believe it was a valid attempt to build a roster, but sometimes things don't work so you learn and adapt.
Except I'm not opposed to Shaka using the portal. My point is he's not going too overhaul his approach if faced with adversity. To suggest he do so at this point is just way too short-sighted, IMO.
Also, it's been 3 games. We don't actually know what has worked or not worked yet.
Additionally, if the team doesn't meet expectations this season, that is not proof his process/approach doesn't work.
That is well stated. I am not opposed to Shaka using the portal. I just don't foresee it unless there are a number of unexpected departures.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 10, 2025, 11:48:22 AMWhat do you mean by run off? I believe in both cases that they could have stayed with the program had they be confortable with a likely diminished role. I don't think either were told they had to leave.
This is exactly it. There's a difference between a player being run off and a coach being honest about the player's standing and the player choosing to explore other options. I think Tre is a perfect example of that.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 10, 2025, 01:00:31 PMExcept I'm not opposed to Shaka using the portal. My point is he's not going too overhaul his approach if faced with adversity. To suggest he do so at this point is just way too short-sighted, IMO.
Also, it's been 3 games. We don't actually know what has worked or not worked yet.
Additionally, if the team doesn't meet expectations this season, that is not proof his process/approach doesn't work.
Does adding one transfer disrupt team chemistry and the NIL?
I know we currently have scholarship limitations.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on November 10, 2025, 01:15:41 PMDoes adding one transfer disrupt team chemistry and the NIL?
I know we currently have scholarship limitations.
I imagine that depends on the context and conversations with the team and staff.
Shaka has already said multiple times that he's not going to get into bidding wars and pay someone more than the guys that have been in the program. He also knows that lessens the margin for error when it comes to recruiting and development.
I imagine he's satisfied with what Chase and Ben bring as seniors, but early on, Zaide is the only junior that has been solid.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks Shaka will ever open the bag to bring in an Owen Freeman or Bryce Hopkins kind of transfer.
Based on everything he has said since arriving at Marquette, he will not pay guys like that more than he already pays the players on his roster. Period.
Doing so would be such a major departure from every philosophy he has espoused, why would anybody think it's a possibility?
Now, could he bring in a high-level transfer who is willing to accept the going Marquette rate because that player really wants to be part of our program? I suppose. Could he bring in an "affordable" backup-level player or two who could help round out a contending team - which a few of us had hoped for in previous years? Maybe, though he hasn't yet.
Folks need to be realistic - and to listen to Shaka's own words. Expecting that he might alter his long-held and oft-stated philosophy will only frustrate y'all.
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 01:03:09 PMunexpected departures.
Whether or not they are expected should be a function of minutes played. And some people should play less.
Some will. Shaka said after the first two goes what his final rotation will look like.
Quote from: MU82 on November 10, 2025, 01:50:32 PMI'm not sure why anyone thinks Shaka will ever open the bag to bring in an Owen Freeman or Bryce Hopkins kind of transfer.
Based on everything he has said since arriving at Marquette, he will not pay guys like that more than he already pays the players on his roster. Period.
This. Exactly this. Every year people seem to have the silver bullet reason why it's going to change, and every year he doubles down even further in that he's not interested in transfers. If he didn't do it when O-Max left, if he didn't do it last year, what on earth makes anyone think he's going to be less calcified on this topic?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 02:15:12 PMThis. Exactly this. Every year people seem to have the silver bullet reason why it's going to change, and every year he doubles down even further in that he's not interested in transfers. If he didn't do it when O-Max left, if he didn't do it last year, what on earth makes anyone think he's going to be less calcified on this topic?
What makes me think he will adjust his strategy is that he is a great coach. I don't know why a fan of Shaka would doubt his willingness to improve. He has adjusted to the strategy of increased three point shooting and NIL, why not smart transfer opportunities?
I guess I don't see Shaka as inflexible, "my way or the highway" kind of guy. But, I don't know him so I could be wrong.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 02:43:07 PMHe has adjusted to the strategy of increased three point shooting
Not last game
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 02:43:07 PMWhat makes me think he will adjust his strategy is that he is a great coach. I don't know why a fan of Shaka would doubt his willingness to improve. He has adjusted to the strategy of increased three point shooting and NIL, why not smart transfer opportunities?
I guess I don't see Shaka as inflexible, "my way or the highway" kind of guy. But, I don't know him so I could be wrong.
Honestly, I think a lot of it is loyalty. It's doing right by the guys you promised to take care of. When he talks about Marquette being the place for people that want a program that will stick by them, he means it.
I truly respect the loyalty. I want it to work out. It really feels like Shaka would rather take some losses with his guys than cast them aside to win more with players he isn't as invested in. And I think Marquette might be able to give him more leeway in that regard. But how much and how far that goes is the question.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 04:49:04 PMHonestly, I think a lot of it is loyalty. It's doing right by the guys you promised to take care of. When he talks about Marquette being the place for people that want a program that will stick by them, he means it.
I truly respect the loyalty. I want it to work out. It really feels like Shaka would rather take some losses with his guys than cast them aside to win more with players he isn't as invested in. And I think Marquette might be able to give him more leeway in that regard. But how much and how far that goes is the question.
I understand your point and follow the logic, but I believe you can smartly both be loyal and create space for roster improvements. I don't think most, or anybody, is endorsing a 9-10 player turnover each year. 1-3 key additions can be managed without being disloyal.
And Shaka would disagree. Almost to a man, the last two recruiting classes have discussed the culture and the loyalty as being strong selling points. Knowing the coaching staff continuity, what was going to be done to develop them, and appreciating that Shaka doesn't use the portal.
So, convince Shaka and the players.
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 05:17:53 PMAnd Shaka would disagree. Almost to a man, the last two recruiting classes have discussed the culture and the loyalty as.being strong selling points. Knowing the coaching staff continuity, what was.going to be dobe to develop them, and appreciating that Shaka doesn't use the portal.
So, convince Shaka and the players.
Come on, do you truly believe Shaka is unwilling to adjust to the current landscape?
Also, Shaka can sign one less HS player every other year to create some opportunities while not being disloyal. There actually maybe some HS players who will view MU more favorably for aggressively perusing winning.
I do not see a way that Shaka departs from his current path without a mass exodus. Especially with the success he is having on the recruiting trail with the 25 and 26 classes.
Lowery has more playing time than Norman. I believe James is a better fit than Jones and will have more playing time this year. So, isn't that the same as taking a portal player if he had 3 years of eligibility? Shaka recruits to try to improve the roster. If an incoming freshman is good enough to start they will take time from an established member of the team. Not talking about taking 1 and dones
The second Shaka deviates from the RGV model, everything he's trying to build at MU goes out the window. It ain't happening.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 10, 2025, 06:02:21 PMThe second Shaka deviates from the RGV model, everything he's trying to build at MU goes out the window. It ain't happening.
Exactly.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 10, 2025, 11:14:50 AMWhy? With 15 scholarships, you have a lot more flexibility to take a developmental guy like a Clark or Hamilton, redshirt them, and have them in the program for 5 years. There are more than enough roster spots where taking 1 developmental guy every year or two shouldn't impede the program from building really good teams.
Hamilton has 3 years left and Clark has 4. Might it make sense to see how their careers turn out before whining about taking developmental guys? If the # of scholarships was more limited, that criticism would make a lot more sense to me but not with 15.
And no, why would one potential down year cause Shaka to abandon everything he believes in and has sold recruits on regarding the Marquette program? How do you think he's going to look to the returning and incoming players?
Jesus, these overreactions are something else.
a question based on a hypothetical, IF the season goes south. Not an overreaction. Posing a question to spur conversation which is the point of Scoop, I thought.
Some of you are going to just flip your entire sh1t when Shaka goes CRAZAY and brings in a transfer. It's going to happen at some point, guys, and that's OK. The idea he 'doesn't use the portal' is nonsense and it would be criminal to complete ignore potential transfers. Being incredibly picky - that's fine and great. Putting 'your guys who came here first, first'.. great. But, the situation will arise where it makes sense.
Nah. If he brings in a transfer, he brings in a transfer. I just don't see it anywhere on the horizon, barring unexpected departures.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 10, 2025, 06:13:05 PMSome of you are going to just flip your entire sh1t when Shaka goes CRAZAY and brings in a transfer. It's going to happen at some point, guys, and that's OK. The idea he 'doesn't use the portal' is nonsense and it would be criminal to complete ignore potential transfers. Being incredibly picky - that's fine and great. Putting 'your guys who came here first, first'.. great. But, the situation will arise where it makes sense.
Not sure anyone here is actually against Shaka bringing in a transfer.
Quote from: drbob on November 10, 2025, 05:33:48 PMLowery has more playing time than Norman. I believe James is a better fit than Jones and will have more playing time this year. So, isn't that the same as taking a portal player if he had 3 years of eligibility? Shaka recruits to try to improve the roster. If an incoming freshman is good enough to start they will take time from an established member of the team. Not talking about taking 1 and dones
Nope, I don't think players would look at it the same at all.
Competing against a teammate you look at as a brother would not be remotely looked at the same as competing against someone brought in from the portal.
JB, in the near term, here are some scenarios that would cause Shaka to hit the portal.
Sean and Nigel both transfer this offseason.
Josh and Caedin both transfer.
After the graduation of Chase, Tre, Zaide, and Sean, the staff is unable to land a PG for the 26 class.
Royce and DO leave as a package, though I think a case can be made that there is abundant wing depth.
Beyond that, some unknown players at some undetermined time leave unexpectedly.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 10, 2025, 06:13:05 PMSome of you are going to just flip your entire sh1t when Shaka goes CRAZAY and brings in a transfer. It's going to happen at some point, guys, and that's OK. The idea he 'doesn't use the portal' is nonsense and it would be criminal to complete ignore potential transfers. Being incredibly picky - that's fine and great. Putting 'your guys who came here first, first'.. great. But, the situation will arise where it makes sense.
I'd love it if he brought in someone who could immediately step in and make the team better. Doing that at the expense of someone currently on the team, after going through the recruitment process with Mom and Dad, and then going against everything he's been publicly saying by bringing in someone to essentially replace that kid? That is not going to happen.
Dabo and Clemson had special, championship winning formula too.
Some people way underestimate Shaka. The idea that he has to abandon his personal commitments to add transfers is not grounded in facts.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 02:15:12 PMThis. Exactly this. Every year people seem to have the silver bullet reason why it's going to change, and every year he doubles down even further in that he's not interested in transfers. If he didn't do it when O-Max left, if he didn't do it last year, what on earth makes anyone think he's going to be less calcified on this topic?
And of course, the gap will widen
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 07:35:46 PMThe idea that he has to abandon his personal commitments to add transfers is not grounded in facts.
Explain how that works.
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 07:39:41 PMExplain how that works.
He recruits and signs the best HS players he can and reserves a few spots for transfers. You can sign 3 HS per year and have 3 openings for transfers.
Unless Shaka is guaranteeing playing time (very doubtful), this is very manageable and fair to all.
RGV. Unless I change my mind.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 07:35:46 PMThe idea that he has to abandon his personal commitments to add transfers is not grounded in facts.
Maybe if he replaces grads/transfers with transfers, but Shaka's comments have been pretty straight-forward. Every time he talks about it, it seems like he's closing the door even further on transfers. There just isn't much ambiguity in it.
Quote from: Shaka SmartOnce you start bringing in a bunch of transfers, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It impacts your roster and your program. We have made a decision and a commitment to the guys in our program. Yes, we could have gone in the transfer portal and recruited some guys, but we feel like it would have stunted their growth. We feel if we value growth, that would be a contradiction, and we believe that we can be a lot better than people think without taking transfers.
https://today.marquette.edu/2025/07/mens-basketball-coach-shaka-smart-talks-our-way-how-marquette-approaches-player-retention-development-differently/
Quote from: Shaka SmartBringing in transfers "would have stunted the growth of our returning players," Smart says. "If we value growth, that's a contradiction."
https://today.marquette.edu/2025/10/unshakable/
I can't find it now, but he also recently effectively said "if parents and a family are looking for a place that will be loyal to them, stick with them, Marquette is the place to be." He was saying that in response to programs that recruit over people and bring transfers in with the expectation of playing immediately over returning players.
He's been unequivocal.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 08:30:47 PMI can't find it now, but he also recently effectively said "if parents and a family are looking for a place that will be loyal to them, stick with them, Marquette is the place to be." He was saying that in response to programs that recruit over people and bring transfers in with the expectation of playing immediately over returning players.
He's been unequivocal.
Yep.
This is
never going to stop, all season long. Portal portal portal portal.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 08:30:47 PMI can't find it now, but he also recently effectively said "if parents and a family are looking for a place that will be loyal to them, stick with them, Marquette is the place to be." He was saying that in response to programs that recruit over people and bring transfers in with the expectation of playing immediately over returning players.
He's been unequivocal.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 10, 2025, 08:37:12 PMYep.
This is never going to stop, all season long. Portal portal portal portal.
100%. It's just kind of mind-boggling that people can't accept it for what it is.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 10, 2025, 08:50:01 PM100%. It's just kind of mind-boggling that people can't accept it for what it is.
It's like accepting that the jump shot and forward pass are fads.
I believe Shaka will adapt and thrive. He's not going down with the ship to prove a point.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 09:08:32 PMIt's like accepting that the jump shot and forward pass are fads.
I believe Shaka will adapt and thrive. He's not going down with the ship to prove a point.
Do I think Shaka would never ever ever bring in a stud from the portal? I kind of doubt he would, but I won't say never.
Do I think he would change his entire philosophy, on which he has publicly doubled- and tripled- and quadrupled-down, after one disappointing season? No I do not. Do you?
I also think there's a difference between him maybe bringing in a role player who can help fill out a lineup vs. an actual stud who would command big bucks. I could see him bringing in the former as soon as this coming offseason if the situation were right. I do not see him bringing in the latter unless something crazy - such as a complete change in philosophy - happens. And I don't see a complete change in philosophy after just one less-than-good year. Do you?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2025, 02:15:12 PMThis. Exactly this. Every year people seem to have the silver bullet reason why it's going to change, and every year he doubles down even further in that he's not interested in transfers. If he didn't do it when O-Max left, if he didn't do it last year, what on earth makes anyone think he's going to be less calcified on this topic?
The only reason he would ever become less calcified on this topic is because the V is the most important part of the RGV triangle.
If the V doesn't come as planned, the R and G aspects will become less calcified and he will do what he thinks is necessary to win more the following season, imo.
If he wins enough to dance history has shown there is very low to no probability that he deviates, and you can't blame him
Quote from: MU82 on November 10, 2025, 09:54:07 PMDo I think Shaka would never ever ever bring in a stud from the portal? I kind of doubt he would, but I won't say never.
Do I think he would change his entire philosophy, on which he has publicly doubled- and tripled- and quadrupled-down, after one disappointing season? No I do not. Do you?
I also think there's a difference between him maybe bringing in a role player who can help fill out a lineup vs. an actual stud who would command big bucks. I could see him bringing in the former as soon as this coming offseason if the situation were right. I do not see him bringing in the latter unless something crazy - such as a complete change in philosophy - happens. And I don't see a complete change in philosophy after just one less-than-good year. Do you?
I think we could have a thread 100 pages long discussing who is a stud and who is not.
I simply believe Shaka will go from zero transfers to adding some to the mix.
The ability of high majors to add experienced talent is the way forward.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 09:08:32 PMIt's like accepting that the jump shot and forward pass are fads.
I believe Shaka will adapt and thrive. He's not going down with the ship to prove a point.
The ship is going down?
Quote from: tower912 on November 10, 2025, 08:10:27 PMRGV. Unless I change my mind.
Retention. Grieving. Vitriol. Rinse, repeat.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 10, 2025, 10:05:12 PMI think we could have a thread 100 pages long discussing who is a stud and who is not.
I simply believe Shaka will go from zero transfers to adding some to the mix.
The ability of high majors to add experienced talent is the way forward.
OK, set the bar really low. Now I at least get your argument.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 10, 2025, 08:37:12 PMYep.
This is never going to stop, all season long. Portal portal portal portal.
Correct - especially if the L's pile up. W's on the other hand will cut it down.
FFS it was one game. Shaka has been a God-send to MU, and honestly deserves better than to be questioned for his approach. Shaka's approach is starting to produce dividends on the recruiting trail - nearly every recruit these past two cycles has mentioned Shaka's loyalty as a big piece of the attraction.
The recruiting classes are getting more talented. We might* take a small step back this year, but look at what we have going forward. That aside, I tend to think Sunday's IU game will be the low water point of the season.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on November 11, 2025, 08:01:39 AMFFS it was one game. Shaka has been a God-send to MU, and honestly deserves better than to be questioned for his approach. Shaka's approach is starting to produce dividends on the recruiting trail - nearly every recruit these past two cycles has mentioned Shaka's loyalty as a big piece of the attraction.
The recruiting classes are getting more talented. We might* take a small step back this year, but look at what we have going forward. That aside, I tend to think Sunday's IU game will be the low water point of the season.
I hope to God its the low water mark. It was historically bad basketball. It's the first Shaka Smart led team (in a Power 5 Conference) that gave up 100 points. It's also the first time since 2009 that IU scored 100 points on a high major opponent.
I also think this transfer conversation has become too black and white - use the portal vs don't. I think there is solid grey area here. He can use the portal selectivley AND STILL deomostrate that he sticks with his recruits 95% of the time.
In addtion, Now that these kids are getting paid we need to think of this as a business. If you don't produce you get put on a "perfromance improvement plan". still don't produce you get fired. No different than any of us in our jobs.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on November 11, 2025, 07:20:04 AMCorrect - especially if the L's pile up. W's on the other hand will cut it down.
I hope you and the other portal pushers enjoy pissing into the wind.
I think the 15-man rosters make it a bit easier for Shaka to continue with his model. Take Tre for example. He has not shown the ability to impact the game at this level. But with a large roster, Shaka can keep him on the roster, provide him spot minutes here and there and allow him to graduate with a degree from Marquette, mentors in the coaching staff, life-long friendships in teammates and some dollars in his bank account.
Shaka is promising loyalty. He is not promising game minutes.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 11, 2025, 08:17:53 AMIn addtion, Now that these kids are getting paid we need to think of this as a business. If you don't produce you get put on a "perfromance improvement plan". still don't produce you get fired. No different than any of us in our jobs.
First, they aren't "kids," it's not a "job," and they aren't employees.
Second, a scholarship is renewable each year. It has been for years even before the players were compensated. Nothing has changed from before. Coaches have always had the opportunity to move on from a player.
Third, you've just discovered a great way to other programs to recruit against Marquette.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on November 11, 2025, 08:01:39 AMFFS it was one game. Shaka has been a God-send to MU, and honestly deserves better than to be questioned for his approach. Shaka's approach is starting to produce dividends on the recruiting trail - nearly every recruit these past two cycles has mentioned Shaka's loyalty as a big piece of the attraction.
The recruiting classes are getting more talented. We might* take a small step back this year, but look at what we have going forward. That aside, I tend to think Sunday's IU game will be the low water point of the season.
I poked fun at Xavier for being on the wrong end of an ass kicking last night because the announcers mentioned that Xavier had 12 transfers and a freshman on their team. Many scoopers pushing for going to the portal are
SO sure that it would "improve" Marquette's team (and it
might) but seem oblivious to the fact that the reverse is also a possibility, OR that there would be no change.
My source at Xavier has informed me that Little Pitino has set up a meeting with Shaka to learn about his system. The deal includes Pitino taking Sean off Shaka's hands.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 10, 2025, 06:02:21 PMThe second Shaka deviates from the RGV model, everything he's trying to build at MU goes out the window. It ain't happening.
No, he can bring in one or two transfers to fill holes and still do his RGV model. If he's going to accept mediocrity just to stick with his RGV then maybe he's not the coach MU needs going forward. Look at what happened with Dabo and Clemson - from national title winner to mediocrity because he refused to bring in transfers or give NIL.
I would hope Shaka would recognize the need to adapt to the changing college landscape. Would Militic have not committed if Shaka said, "not only are we going to redshirt you, but I'm going to bring in a player similar to you for the year you are not playing?"
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on November 11, 2025, 08:50:13 AMNo, he can bring in one or two transfers to fill holes and still do his RGV model.
Right. Last year is a great example of how he could have supplemented his model with a transfer. The guy who was supposed to take over for TK was hurt. But instead of looking at potential options, they moved Kam to the PG role, which looked fine to start. But over the course of the season looked like a worse and worse idea.
I don't think his model is supposed to be THAT inflexible.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 11, 2025, 08:29:04 AMFirst, they aren't "kids," it's not a "job," and they aren't employees.
Second, a scholarship is renewable each year. It has been for years even before the players were compensated. Nothing has changed from before. Coaches have always had the opportunity to move on from a player.
Third, you've just discovered a great way to other programs to recruit against Marquette.
Well, the University is paying them via the Excellence fund. How are they not considered employees then?
Quote from: DoctorV on November 10, 2025, 09:58:14 PMThe only reason he would ever become less calcified on this topic is because the V is the most important part of the RGV triangle.
If the V doesn't come as planned, the R and G aspects will become less calcified and he will do what he thinks is necessary to win more the following season, imo.
If he wins enough to dance history has shown there is very low to no probability that he deviates, and you can't blame him
correct. If, however, this season and next one or two are .500 seasons or worse and if Shaka doesn't adjust his roster development approach as a result, MU would move on, I would think...if winning is the objective. Hopefully Shaka's current approach works if only because I really like not taking transfers and absolutely want Shaka to keep on keepin'on. (lots of if's😊)
Quote from: MU82 on November 11, 2025, 12:37:20 AMOK, set the bar really low. Now I at least get your argument.
Quote from: MU82 on November 11, 2025, 12:37:20 AMOK, set the bar really low. Now I at least get your argument.
The whole point of my response was to avoid discussing where the bar is set. The opinions on who is a stud and how much to pay them are so varied that it would be an exercise in futility to define who and who not to recruit as a transfer, until there is a specific target.
The joy of Scoop is that when someone suggest a transfer strategy, a half dozen posters hammer them with quotes and stats that "proves" Shaka will not take transfers. But if someone claims that Shaka will not take transfers, there are a half dozen posters who hammer them with quotes and stats that says Shaka does use the transfer portal.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 09:38:04 AMThe joy of Scoop is that when someone suggest a transfer strategy, a half dozen posters hammer them with quotes and stats that "proves" Shaka will not take transfers. But if someone claims that Shaka will not take transfers, there are a half dozen posters who hammer them with quotes and stats that says Shaka does use the transfer portal.
The so-called 'Transfer Portal' is a purely fictional concept, likely invented by rival conferences to sow discord. All 'transfers' you observe are merely players embarking on pre-planned, sabbatical world tours before deciding to return to a completely different school. The NCAA strongly supports these spontaneous, global educational pilgrimages.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 11, 2025, 09:45:25 AMThe so-called 'Transfer Portal' is a purely fictional concept, likely invented by rival conferences to sow discord. All 'transfers' you observe are merely players embarking on pre-planned, sabbatical world tours before deciding to return to a completely different school. The NCAA strongly supports these spontaneous, global educational pilgrimages.
So a version of the BYU model? I dig it! :D
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 11, 2025, 09:02:38 AMWell, the University is paying them via the Excellence fund. How are they not considered employees then?
They supposedly are not considered employees. IFAIK, that situation hasn't been sorted out because if the ARE employees, that opens up the University to all sorts of issues. Worker's compensation insurance for instance.
Regardless, the point is that Marquette, as well as everyone else, can easily move on from players if they wish.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on November 11, 2025, 08:50:13 AMNo, he can bring in one or two transfers to fill holes and still do his RGV model. If he's going to accept mediocrity just to stick with his RGV then maybe he's not the coach MU needs going forward. Look at what happened with Dabo and Clemson - from national title winner to mediocrity because he refused to bring in transfers or give NIL.
I would hope Shaka would recognize the need to adapt to the changing college landscape. Would Militic have not committed if Shaka said, "not only are we going to redshirt you, but I'm going to bring in a player similar to you for the year you are not playing?"
Who has accepted mediocrity?
This is just more short-sighted, impatient, hyperbolic nonsense.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 08:45:11 AMI poked fun at Xavier for being on the wrong end of an ass kicking last night because the announcers mentioned that Xavier had 12 transfers and a freshman on their team. Many scoopers pushing for going to the portal are SO sure that it would "improve" Marquette's team (and it might) but seem oblivious to the fact that the reverse is also a possibility, OR that there would be no change.
My source at Xavier has informed me that Little Pitino has set up a meeting with Shaka to learn about his system. The deal includes Pitino taking Sean off Shaka's hands.
You are taking the extreme side of the argument for using the portal (15 new players every year) to make your point. That's not hard to do. There is not a revelation or new thought with that argument. I don't think I have read anyone say that.
I have no stake in this argument. I am ok with the current situation even if we take a step back for a year. But if Shaka wanted to fill a hole or two with transfers under certain circumstances I'd be ok with it as well.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 10:18:21 AMWho has accepted mediocrity?
This is just more short-sighted, impatient, hyperbolic nonsense.
I'm not saying we have, but if we are not competing for conference titles and deep NCAA runs and insists on sticking with RVG (like Dabo did) then I'd consider that accepting mediocrity.
The portal is a zero sum game. Equal amounts of winners and losers.
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2025, 11:06:02 AMThe portal is a zero sum game. Equal amounts of winners and losers.
Not for the P5.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 11, 2025, 10:19:06 AMYou are taking the extreme side of the argument for using the portal (15 new players every year) to make your point. That's not hard to do. There is not a revelation or new thought with that argument. I don't think I have read anyone say that.
I have no stake in this argument. I am ok with the current situation even if we take a step back for a year. But if Shaka wanted to fill a hole or two with transfers under certain circumstances I'd be ok with it as well.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 11, 2025, 10:19:06 AMYou are taking the extreme side of the argument for using the portal (15 new players every year) to make your point. That's not hard to do. There is not a revelation or new thought with that argument. I don't think I have read anyone say that.
I have no stake in this argument. I am ok with the current situation even if we take a step back for a year. But if Shaka wanted to fill a hole or two with transfers under certain circumstances I'd be ok with it as well.
I simply am looking for an acknowledgement that there can be downsides or neutral effects to going to the portal.
That is what seems to be ignored repeatedly. I make no apologies for offering an admittedly extreme example if that is what it takes. I think there is an extreme assumption that the team would be "improved" and my offering an extreme counter argument is a rebuttal.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 09:38:04 AMThe whole point of my response was to avoid discussing where the bar is set. The opinions on who is a stud and how much to pay them are so varied that it would be an exercise in futility to define who and who not to recruit as a transfer, until there is a specific target.
The joy of Scoop is that when someone suggest a transfer strategy, a half dozen posters hammer them with quotes and stats that "proves" Shaka will not take transfers. But if someone claims that Shaka will not take transfers, there are a half dozen posters who hammer them with quotes and stats that says Shaka does use the transfer portal.
C'mon, you know basketball. You know which players are and aren't studs.
For example, Owen Freeman was considered a "stud" when he left Iowa and entered the transfer portal. Lots of Scoopers were dreaming that Shaka would make tweaks to his philosophy and go for him.
But to get any stud like that, Shaka would have to do more than just tweak his philosophy. He would have to pay that player more - perhaps substantially more - than he is paying any returning player. And I just don't see it happening. Do you?
Again, I am not among those who says Shaka would never consider a transfer. I could see him bringing in a role player or two to fill a perceived need. It sure would have been nice if he had brought in a good backup PG before last season, which would have given Kam both rest and some time off the ball.
Quote from: MU82 on November 11, 2025, 11:38:01 AMC'mon, you know basketball. You know which players are and aren't studs.
For example, Owen Freeman was considered a "stud" when he left Iowa and entered the transfer portal. Lots of Scoopers were dreaming that Shaka would make tweaks to his philosophy and go for him.
But to get any stud like that, Shaka would have to do more than just tweak his philosophy. He would have to pay that player more - perhaps substantially more - than he is paying any returning player. And I just don't see it happening. Do you?
Again, I am not among those who says Shaka would never consider a transfer. I could see him bringing in a role player or two to fill a perceived need. It sure would have been nice if he had brought in a good backup PG before last season, which would have given Kam both rest and some time off the ball.
I guess I would say that I'm not expecting Shaka and MU to go toe to toe with blue bloods on transfers. I think the thoughtful transfers makes sense. As you say, a backup PG or a dedicated rebounder or shooter, etc. I trust Shaka to look at lower level schools to find some impactful players. Kolek - like.
I still don't have an issue with Shaka trying a different approach, but you have to adapt in major college sports. I trust he will.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 08:45:11 AMI poked fun at Xavier for being on the wrong end of an ass kicking last night because the announcers mentioned that Xavier had 12 transfers and a freshman on their team. Many scoopers pushing for going to the portal are SO sure that it would "improve" Marquette's team (and it might) but seem oblivious to the fact that the reverse is also a possibility, OR that there would be no change.
My source at Xavier has informed me that Little Pitino has set up a meeting with Shaka to learn about his system. The deal includes Pitino taking Sean off Shaka's hands.
Who is asking for a roster full of transfers? We need one maybe two and we have a more competitive roster in an otherwise down year.
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2025, 11:06:02 AMThe portal is a zero sum game. Equal amounts of winners and losers.
Categorically false. There are many who enter the portal and go nowhere.
I'm waiting to see first semester GPAs before calling the nonconf a success or failure.
In the grand scheme of things, it's just basketball. Let's relax. Poor Tucker Carlson is getting mauled by demons, guys.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 11:58:27 AMI guess I would say that I'm not expecting Shaka and MU to go toe to toe with blue bloods on transfers. I think the thoughtful transfers makes sense. As you say, a backup PG or a dedicated rebounder or shooter, etc. I trust Shaka to look at lower level schools to find some impactful players. Kolek - like.
I still don't have an issue with Shaka trying a different approach, but you have to adapt in major college sports. I trust he will.
Then you and I are most in agreement. Sounds like you're mostly in agreement with Shaka, too.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 08:45:11 AMI poked fun at Xavier for being on the wrong end of an ass kicking last night because the announcers mentioned that Xavier had 12 transfers and a freshman on their team. Many scoopers pushing for going to the portal are SO sure that it would "improve" Marquette's team (and it might) but seem oblivious to the fact that the reverse is also a possibility, OR that there would be no change.
My source at Xavier has informed me that Little Pitino has set up a meeting with Shaka to learn about his system. The deal includes Pitino taking Sean off Shaka's hands.
That's a poor comparison, because nobody here is asking to overhaul the roster with transfers; it's minor supplementation at best.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 11, 2025, 01:03:39 PMThat's a poor comparison, because nobody here is asking to overhaul the roster with transfers; it's minor supplementation at best.
Not meant to be a comparison at all. Read my reply to Shooter.
Still looking for the acknowledgements that I addressed. Instead, I get replies like yours.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 01:07:15 PMNot meant to be a comparison at all. Read my reply to Shooter.
Got it - no doubt is there potential for the portal route to not work out. I've argued for the benefits since two of Shaka's best players were portal acquisitions (albeit pre-NIL) in Kolek and O-Max. As we know, portal additions like Joe Chartouny come along as well.
Being entirely closed off is what concerns me long-term. Love Shaka, admire his philosophy, but will scrutinize it even more if the next couple of years are rougher. As some others have reminded, this is his first full year with only his guys.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on November 11, 2025, 10:29:19 AMI'm not saying we have, but if we are not competing for conference titles and deep NCAA runs and insists on sticking with RVG (like Dabo did) then I'd consider that accepting mediocrity.
So what's the timeline when a judgment can be made? When we can unequivocally see if Shaka's approach is a success or failure?
Shaka is at the start of his 5th year and so far we have made the tourney every year with the following seeds:
9
2
2
7
This year is TBD. Hypothetically, is going from a 2 to a 7 to missing the tourney enough to say RGV doesn't work?
For me, it isn't because you have to look at the bigger picture in regard to the talent of the underclassmen and incoming recruits.
That's why I think patience is warranted vs going for a quick fix. And like others have said here many times, Shaka is not going to change the identity of the entire program because of some rough waters.
Now, if this team misses the tourney for 2 straight years then the conversation changes.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 10:18:21 AMWho has accepted mediocrity?
This is just more short-sighted, impatient, hyperbolic nonsense.
Billy Hoyle was a big Wojo guy. It's laughable he is even mentioning the word mediocrity around our program with Shaka at the helm.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 11, 2025, 01:15:32 PMGot it - no doubt is there potential for the portal route to not work out. I've argued for the benefits since two of Shaka's best players were portal acquisitions (albeit pre-NIL) in Kolek and O-Max. As we know, portal additions like Joe Chartouny come along as well.
Being entirely closed off is what concerns me long-term. Love Shaka, admire his philosophy, but will scrutinize it even more if the next couple of years are rougher. As some others have reminded, this is his first full year with only his guys.
Thanks! It turns out that we are mostly in agreement.
But
no thanks to you for reminding me about Chartouny. ;D I remember one game in particular where he was on the perimeter while teammates scurried around in the paint, briefly getting open. Until, that is, Chartouny stared right at the guy and the defender was on him like duct tape. The only thing he did not do was point at the guy to alert him that he was going to pass to him. ::) ;D
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 01:16:52 PMThat's why I think patience is warranted vs going for a quick fix. And like others have said here many times, Shaka is not going to change the identity of the entire program because of some rough waters.
I disagree that transfers are a "quick fix". Transfers can be a vital component of roster building, just like free agency in the NBA.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 01:31:26 PMI disagree that transfers are a "quick fix". Transfers can be a vital component of roster building, just like free agency in the NBA.
Depends on how and when they are used and the impact on the current roster or any commitments.
People talk about the portal like it exists in a vacuum. That's not how it works.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on November 11, 2025, 01:26:57 PMBilly Hoyle was a big Wojo guy. It's laughable he is even mentioning the word mediocrity around our program with Shaka at the helm.
I was? I don't seem to remember that.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on November 11, 2025, 01:47:21 PMI was? I don't seem to remember that.
Well you see, if you ever expressed that MU was not in a good financial position to fire wojo, you were a "big wojo guy". In fact, if you ever said anything other than "fire wojo now", you were a big wojo guy.
But, it's not like Ners logic ever makes sense.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 01:44:55 PMDepends on how and when they are used and the impact on the current roster or any commitments.
People talk about the portal like it exists in a vacuum. That's not how it works.
Who are these people?
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 01:27:29 PMThanks! It turns out that we are mostly in agreement.
But no thanks to you for reminding me about Chartouny. ;D I remember one game in particular where he was on the perimeter while teammates scurried around in the paint, briefly getting open. Until, that is, Chartouny stared right at the guy and the defender was on him like duct tape. The only thing he did not do was point at the guy to alert him that he was going to pass to him. ::) ;D
You should watch this 3 minute long mixtape so you are reminded of all of the good memories 8-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYKWx7NBwbE
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 02:21:16 PMWho are these people?
You, for starters.
Anyone that complains about not using the portal never acknowledges the potential downsides and risk.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 11, 2025, 02:43:39 PMYou should watch this 3 minute long mixtape so you are reminded of all of the good memories 8-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYKWx7NBwbE
Thanks! I really enjoyed it. We all have some times when we look bad, so this is a well-deserved redemption, mixtape or not.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 11, 2025, 01:15:32 PMGot it - no doubt is there potential for the portal route to not work out. I've argued for the benefits since two of Shaka's best players were portal acquisitions (albeit pre-NIL) in Kolek and O-Max. As we know, portal additions like Joe Chartouny come along as well.
Being entirely closed off is what concerns me long-term. Love Shaka, admire his philosophy, but will scrutinize it even more if the next couple of years are rougher. As some others have reminded, this is his first full year with only his guys.
And Pérez and others....
We've moved from the IU game to transfers v. roster continuity to Wojo to failed recruits.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1hvyzl.jpg)
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 11, 2025, 06:29:38 PMWe've moved from the IU game to transfers v. roster continuity to Wojo to failed recruits.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1hvyzl.jpg)
Something entirely new in scoopville.
Have they fired Shaka yet and hired Wardle?
Quote from: Newsdreams on November 11, 2025, 07:11:13 PM#donedeal
Hopefully, he gets Diener as an assistant with Chapman and Kojis
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on November 11, 2025, 07:39:23 PMAre injuries somehow unique to transfers?
He wasn't really working out prior.
Quote from: Newsdreams on November 11, 2025, 08:24:20 PMHe wasn't really working out prior.
Wasn't he hurt one way or another his whole time here?
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on November 11, 2025, 08:33:20 PMWasn't he hurt one way or another his whole time here?
Three games got injured, but stats no bueno
Marquette University (2022-2023)
Points: 1.3
Rebounds: 1.7
Assists: 0.7
Steals: 0.3
Blocks: 0.0
I get everyone's point about how portal players can flop (the players have been named above). But it depends on where you go shopping and who you going shopping for. Going after Chartouney, Wrightsil, etc was like shopping at goodwill. Kolek (Atlantic 10 rookie of the year) Darryl Morsell (Big Ten defensive player of the year), Omax a 6'8" hyper athletic kid from The ACC, Kur Kueth (solid fourth year center in the Big 12, role player) etc were more like shopping at a real department store. Were they elite brands? No. But certainly better pedigree than Chartouny and Wrightsil. Listing the crapty players that MU took a flyer on that haven't worked out for MU is disingenuous at best and distracts from an honest conversation.
Again, don't care what Shaka and MU do. I will be there to support the team and will hope for the best.
Agree with Snoop, let's win Wednesday and really get right against Buzz on Saturday!
I don't like your data points so I will call them disingenuous. C'mon. You are better than that.
MU has a long history of transfers. My time at MU goes back to 84. The transfers in the last 40 years have been a mixed bag, just like the high schoolers. In my 40 years, the top transfers are, off the top of my head
Downing
Boone
Curry
Jackson
Fitzgerald
Lockett
Wilson.
Buzz and JUCO's are a category unto themselves.
I am not opposed to transfers. I cheered for all of the ones in the years prior. I will cheer for any tranfer that Shaka brings in. I just don't see it in the near future. So, I will root for RGV
Agreed, they are a mixed bag. But some MU really took a chance on and it didn't pan out probably not unexpectedly. Almost like they were trying to find lightning in a bottle.
Shop at better places, get better players. There is way more inventory to choose from now than when we were at MU in the 80s.
Quote from: Newsdreams on November 11, 2025, 08:38:07 PMThree games got injured, but stats no bueno
Marquette University (2022-2023)
Points: 1.3
Rebounds: 1.7
Assists: 0.7
Steals: 0.3
Blocks: 0.0
Right, because he was already hurt. Not saying he would've been good otherwise.
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2025, 08:52:45 PMI don't like your data points so I will call them disingenuous. C'mon. You are better than that.
MU has a long history of transfers. My time at MU goes back to 84. The transfers in the last 40 years have been a mixed bag, just like the high schoolers. In my 40 years, the top transfers are, off the top of my head
Downing
Boone
Curry
Jackson
Fitzgerald
Lockett
Wilson.
Buzz and JUCO's are a category unto themselves.
I am not opposed to transfers. I cheered for all of the ones in the years prior. I will cheer for any tranfer that Shaka brings in. I just don't see it in the near future. So, I will root for RGV
I think you bring up a good point though, tower. Marquette has never shied away from transfers. When the team had holes, they filled them. I don't think anyone here is asking for anything different. Pre NIL and the portal, they would take one here and there. No one is asking for annual roster turnover. Would Tre Norman have survived Wojo, Buzz, Crean?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 02:53:00 PMYou, for starters.
Anyone that complains about not using the portal never acknowledges the potential downsides and risk.
Really? There are potential downsides with HS recruits, so ignore that strategy also?
I'll concede obvious, transfers are not 100% guaranteed to be successful. ::)
Looks like we talk about focusing on player development, that the future will be better, that just wait until our freshman progress or this guy or that guy improves dramatically. While this may happen should we not expect periodic lean years?
Meanwhile, should we not expect UConn, Creighton and likely St. John's performance to be more consistent than ours year in year out given their use of the portal?
Can we agree that the use of the portal does make a difference given the portals ability to plug weaknesses in a team?
I admire Shaka's principals, his support of player development but to think most players will develop to the highest levels, to be among the best in the country, is simply an unrealistic expectation. Dream what we want but not using the portal is going to hurt us periodically.
Quote from: Class71 on November 11, 2025, 10:23:01 PMMeanwhile, should we not expect UConn, Creighton and likely St. John's performance to be more consistent than ours year in year out given their use of the portal? You forgot to mention that the BE cellar dwellers and cellar dwellers in other major conferences use the portal with results that are also consistent. ;D
Can we agree that the use of the portal does make a difference given the portals ability to plug weaknesses in a team? It may. Or not. How do you account for the teams that have weaknesses after using the portal?
All major teams other than Marquette use the portal. Cherry picking the top teams to support your position and ignoring the bottom teams is where I have a problem with your take. There is nothing
inherently beneficial in using the portal.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 11, 2025, 09:30:19 PMReally? There are potential downsides with HS recruits, so ignore that strategy also?
I'll concede obvious, transfers are not 100% guaranteed to be successful. ::)
::)
There's risk with every approach and I never said otherwise, did I?
Not sure why it's so difficult for you to comprehend the downside of Shaka abandoning everything he's preached to every recruit snd their families. It's not complicated.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 11:33:13 PM::)
There's risk with every approach and I never said otherwise, did I?
Not sure why it's so difficult for you to comprehend the downside of Shaka abandoning everything he's preached to every recruit snd their families. It's not complicated.
This. Shaka has embraced (and sold) an idea. The idea has become symbolic to Marquette and Shaka's approach.
It would take a lot, I think, for him to abandon it at the first sign of trouble. One horrible display against Indiana is not going to change it.
I'd say, so far, Shaka's success at Marquette has solidified his commitment to his vision and the "idea."
Time will tell. Either the idea in its purest form (no transfers ever — which by the way, he's never said is part of the vision) will succeed, or he will adapt, or he will fail and we move on.
For now, however, I cannot fault someone committed to a vision that is much more long-term looking than the immediate short-term benefit of, for example, grabbing a PG this past year in the portal. He has to stay true to his vision until results force him to adapt. I applaud that and support that even if I think some transfers might help in some years.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 11, 2025, 11:33:13 PM::)
There's risk with every approach and I never said otherwise, did I?
Not sure why it's so difficult for you to comprehend the downside of Shaka abandoning everything he's preached to every recruit snd their families. It's not complicated.
Your position would be valid if Shaka is telling HS recruits he will never use the portal. Agreed that he would rightfully be called a liar.
Do we really think Shaka is doing that?
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 06:39:41 AMYour position would be valid if Shaka is telling HS recruits he will never use the portal. Agreed that he would rightfully be called a liar.
Do we really think Shaka is doing that?
The words of the recruits and their families seem to indicate they are being told he will not use the portal to recruit over them. And that is a selling point.
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2025, 06:42:00 AMThe words of the recruits and their families seem to indicate they are being told he will not use the portal to recruit over them. And that is a selling point.
I really like Shaka's attempt to be different.
I don't like that he has shut the door on a significant talent pool.
If his strategy fails, he is going to lose all credibility if he brings in transfers. That, I'm afraid, would be the end.
He has chosen his hill.
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2025, 06:42:00 AMThe words of the recruits and their families seem to indicate they are being told he will not use the portal to recruit over them. And that is a selling point.
I get saying this to the top 100ish recruits. But when you have a glaring need at center last year (I love Ben just think he's playing out of position most of the time), wouldn't it have been ok to bring in a 1 year transfer over the two recruits you took a flyer on?
We all agree that Oso developed exceptionally during his time at MU. I think a vital part of that development was banging at practice every day against Theo John and then Kur Kuath his first two years. You could tell that many of those moves around the basket were developed avoiding Kur's shot blocking ability. He was then unfazed when attacking the basket against the likes of Edey and Kalkbrenner.
Even the other players honed their ability to attack a shot blocker.
All reports the last two summers were that Caeden was dominating and was ready to contribute. Could it have appeared that way because he had no Theo or Kur or Oso ahead of him? Would he have been better served banging against a 4th or 5th year transfer in practice last year?
Would that transfer center stealing 8-10 minutes a game have allowed Ben to maybe stay a little healthier at the end of the season?
Same at point guard last year. Although I'll concede that Shaka was anticipating Sean's healthy return last season.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 06:39:41 AMYour position would be valid if Shaka is telling HS recruits he will never use the portal. Agreed that he would rightfully be called a liar.
Do we really think Shaka is doing that?
I doubt Shaka would ever speak in absolutes like "never" and "always". However, if we take his words at face value, and why wouldn't we, using the portal in the manner some here think he should isn't going to happen.
I think there would need to be very specific circumstances for Shaka to bring a transfer in, especially one that would be expected to play a significant role immediately.
Quote from: 1318WWells on November 12, 2025, 08:16:08 AMI get saying this to the top 100ish recruits. But when you have a glaring need at center last year (I love Ben just think he's playing out of position most of the time), wouldn't it have been ok to bring in a 1 year transfer over the two recruits you took a flyer on?
We all agree that Oso developed exceptionally during his time at MU. I think a vital part of that development was banging at practice every day against Theo John and then Kur Kuath his first two years. You could tell that many of those moves around the basket were developed avoiding Kur's shot blocking ability. He was then unfazed when attacking the basket against the likes of Edey and Kalkbrenner.
Even the other players honed their ability to attack a shot blocker.
All reports the last two summers were that Caeden was dominating and was ready to contribute. Could it have appeared that way because he had no Theo or Kur or Oso ahead of him? Would he have been better served banging against a 4th or 5th year transfer in practice last year?
Would that transfer center stealing 8-10 minutes a game have allowed Ben to maybe stay a little healthier at the end of the season?
Same at point guard last year. Although I'll concede that Shaka was anticipating Sean's healthy return last season.
But was there a one-year transfer available who would have been willing to come to play only 8-10 MPG while still being productive in those limited minutes?
That's where I think this falls apart a bit. People just assume whatever kind of role we might want to fill will be available and willing to come. I imagine most transfers are looking for a larger role and more minutes.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 12, 2025, 08:40:28 AMBut was there a one-year transfer available who would have been willing to come to play only 8-10 MPG while still being productive in those limited minutes?
That's where I think this falls apart a bit. People just assume whatever kind of role we might want to fill will be available and willing to come. I imagine most transfers are looking for a larger role and more minutes.
It's easy to construct a roster sitting on the couch and eating Cheetos
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 12, 2025, 08:40:28 AMBut was there a one-year transfer available who would have been willing to come to play only 8-10 MPG while still being productive in those limited minutes?
That's where I think this falls apart a bit. People just assume whatever kind of role we might want to fill will be available and willing to come. I imagine most transfers are looking for a larger role and more minutes.
Agree, but I would add one more factor, and it is a
huge one-money. The famous line from the 1996 movie
Jerry McGuire is still apropos-
Show Me the Money!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 12, 2025, 08:51:29 AMIt's easy to construct a roster sitting on the couch and eating Cheetos
What about in the basement with your Warriors pennant?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 11, 2025, 08:42:15 PMI get everyone's point about how portal players can flop (the players have been named above). But it depends on where you go shopping and who you going shopping for. Going after Chartouney, Wrightsil, etc was like shopping at goodwill. Kolek (Atlantic 10 rookie of the year) Darryl Morsell (Big Ten defensive player of the year), Omax a 6'8" hyper athletic kid from The ACC, Kur Kueth (solid fourth year center in the Big 12, role player) etc were more like shopping at a real department store. Were they elite brands? No. But certainly better pedigree than Chartouny and Wrightsil. Listing the crapty players that MU took a flyer on that haven't worked out for MU is disingenuous at best and distracts from an honest conversation.
Again, don't care what Shaka and MU do. I will be there to support the team and will hope for the best.
Agree with Snoop, let's win Wednesday and really get right against Buzz on Saturday!
The joke wrote itself
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/awards/men/atlantic-10-roy.html
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 12, 2025, 09:15:52 AMThe joke wrote itself
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/awards/men/atlantic-10-roy.html
Yeah Chartouny was more accomplished a player than Tyler was when they both got here. Chartouny wasn't awful, but his game just didn't rise like Tyler's did.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 12, 2025, 09:11:57 AMWhat about in the basement with your Warriors pennant?
It's exhausting, because we have had these discussions ad nauseam about the portal and I always ask, "who?". The discussion never gets off the ground about "who?", so basically, it's the want Shaka to do something to do something argument and any discussion over who always fizzles.
Shaka should be held accountable for having a team that needs to make baskets to play the way he wants this team to play. That is on his staff and him. They can't shoot below average to play as aggressive as it appears he wants them to play on defense.
The idea the portal is a panacea flies in the face of reality. There are as many poorly assembled rosters full of transfers as there are good rosters full of transfers. One bad transfer class and the same people currently blasting this roster would blast that roster. It's the nature of the beast.
I'm sure Creighton scoop is in free fall this morning and asking questions about McDermott's desire now that he's in retirement mode and about this roster he constructed. It's the nature of the beast.
Drawing conclusions from the one major team that has not used the portal vs. all the other major conference teams that have is ridiculous. Even if 4-5 other teams took Shaka's approach, there still is not enough data to reach conclusions. Perhaps if that number increases to 10, an overall evaluation of portal vs. no portal could be rationally discussed based upon the teams' performances. Even then, it would take several seasons to evaluate.
I have no background as a statistician, but I think drawing conclusions here results in whatever "conclusion" you choose.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 06:59:44 AMI really like Shaka's attempt to be different.
I don't like that he has shut the door on a significant talent pool.
If his strategy fails, he is going to lose all credibility if he brings in transfers. That, I'm afraid, would be the end.
No he won't. If it doesn't work he will adapt. Way too much drama over this.
This reads like a summer 2022/23/24 thread. Same people have the same complaints, and there's the same explanation for it all. I wonder when people will learn.
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 12, 2025, 10:01:22 AMSame people have the same complaints, and there's the same explanation for it all. I wonder when people will learn.
It will probably happen every time Marquette gets the sh*t smacked out of it by a team with contributors from the transfer portal.
Speaking of which, Painter seems to have hit with his two pickups from the portal, while maintaining a bunch of continuity.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 12, 2025, 09:52:03 AMDrawing conclusions from the one major team that has not used the portal vs. all the other major conference teams that have is ridiculous. Even if 4-5 other teams took Shaka's approach, there still is not enough data to reach conclusions. Perhaps if that number increases to 10, an overall evaluation of portal vs. no portal could be rationally discussed based upon the teams' performances. Even then, it would take several seasons to evaluate.
I have no background as a statistician, but I think drawing conclusions here results in whatever "conclusion" you choose.
Basically.
None of us know what the future landscape will look like either. Something will be done regarding transfers. Guys bouncing from team-to-team isn't going to remain in place. It's far more likely some type of limit will be put into place in the near future or some type of "guardrails" protecting rosters. It's just a matter of how the P4 gets there. It'll roll down hill from there.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 12, 2025, 10:03:14 AMSpeaking of which, Painter seems to have hit with his two pickups from the portal, while maintaining a bunch of continuity.
Sure, but how bad is their culture suffering?
Quote from: Class71 on November 11, 2025, 10:23:01 PMLooks like we talk about focusing on player development, that the future will be better, that just wait until our freshman progress or this guy or that guy improves dramatically. While this may happen should we not expect periodic lean years?
Meanwhile, should we not expect UConn, Creighton and likely St. John's performance to be more consistent than ours year in year out given their use of the portal?
Can we agree that the use of the portal does make a difference given the portals ability to plug weaknesses in a team?
I admire Shaka's principals, his support of player development but to think most players will develop to the highest levels, to be among the best in the country, is simply an unrealistic expectation. Dream what we want but not using the portal is going to hurt us periodically.
We can expect UCONN and St. John's to be more consistent than ours because they have better coaches. There are 7 active head coaches in D1 college basketball that have won a D1 national championship, and those programs have two of them (and both have won 2, although Rick's have both been vacated).
Creighton? We'll see. We've been at least as consistent as them since Shaka has arrived, and it's not like their first game against a high major opponent went a ton better than Marquette's did, even with Greg's superior willingness to take in transfers.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 12, 2025, 10:50:26 AMWe can expect UCONN and St. John's to be more consistent than ours because they have better coaches. There are 7 active head coaches in D1 college basketball that have won a D1 national championship, and those program shave two of them (and both have won 2, although Rick's have both been vacated).
Creighton? We'll see. We've been at least as consistent as them since Shaka has arrived, and it's not like their first game against a high major opponent went a ton better than Marquette's did, even with Doug's superior willingness to take in transfers.
Rick's championship with Kentucky has not been vacated.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 12, 2025, 10:50:26 AMDoug's superior willingness to take in transfers.
I mean the NBA doesn't have the tradition of development and loyalty that the college ranks does and I don't think he has much say in the King's roster construction. ;D
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2025, 08:52:45 PMI don't like your data points so I will call them disingenuous. C'mon. You are better than that.
MU has a long history of transfers. My time at MU goes back to 84. The transfers in the last 40 years have been a mixed bag, just like the high schoolers. In my 40 years, the top transfers are, off the top of my head
Downing
Boone
Curry
Jackson
Fitzgerald
Lockett
Wilson.
Buzz and JUCO's are a category unto themselves.
I am not opposed to transfers. I cheered for all of the ones in the years prior. I will cheer for any tranfer that Shaka brings in. I just don't see it in the near future. So, I will root for RGV
I'm curious, how are you defining "top" here? Ballyhoo'd, impact, other?
Quote from: The Sultan on November 12, 2025, 10:54:32 AMRick's championship with Kentucky has not been vacated.
Thanks. That's what I get for using Google's AI.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 12, 2025, 10:57:56 AMI mean the NBA doesn't have the tradition of development and loyalty that the college ranks does and I don't think he has much say in the King's roster construction. ;D
Woof. Hell of a post by me.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 12, 2025, 10:50:26 AMit's not like their first game against a high major opponent went a ton better than Marquette's did
True, though I think Gonzaga will be quite good this year. Indiana? TBD.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 12, 2025, 11:03:34 AMTrue, though I think Gonzaga will be quite good this year. Indiana? TBD.
I don't know, I hear IU put a beating on a strong power conference program with a ton of roster continuity. Definitely going to turn heads this year.
Always be portaling
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 12, 2025, 10:03:14 AMIt will probably happen every time Marquette gets the sh*t smacked out of it by a team with contributors from the transfer portal.
Speaking of which, Painter seems to have hit with his two pickups from the portal, while maintaining a bunch of continuity.
Painter has done better than most at managing this landscape IMHO. He seems to have committed strongly to the players he recruited, developed and retained, even as he also has brought in a few key transfers over the years.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2025, 11:18:05 AMPainter has done better than most at managing this landscape IMHO. He seems to have committed strongly to the players he recruited, developed and retained, even as he also has brought in a few key transfers over the years.
I firmly believe Shaka is every bit as capable as Painter to do this. But I'm repeatedly told Shaka has sworn off transfers and will torpedo his credibility is he does. He has picked his hill, move on, case closed.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 11:26:17 AMI firmly believe Shaka is every bit as capable as Painter to do this. But I'm repeatedly told Shaka has sworn off transfers and will torpedo his credibility is he does. He has picked his hill, move on, case closed.
As others (at least
@DoctorV) has said, RGV is a package. R&G won't continue without the V. With, or without Shaka (and Duh, I'm talking about more than one year of V problems, of which isn't even certain this year).
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 11:26:17 AMI firmly believe Shaka is every bit as capable as Painter to do this. But I'm repeatedly told Shaka has sworn off transfers and will torpedo his credibility is he does. He has picked his hill, move on, case closed.
You keep making stuff up, but carry on.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2025, 11:36:01 AMYou keep making stuff up, but carry on.
If Marquette keeps losing, will White Trash tell us not to care about Marquette like the White Sox, Bulls and Bears? Or will he really not care and not post?
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 11:26:17 AMI firmly believe Shaka is every bit as capable as Painter to do this. But I'm repeatedly told Shaka has sworn off transfers and will torpedo his credibility is he does. He has picked his hill, move on, case closed.
exactly, move on.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 12, 2025, 10:59:47 AMI'm curious, how are you defining "top" here? Ballyhoo'd, impact, other?
Yes.
Honestly, Just pulling names off the top of my head without a lot of deep thought.
And yes, case closed. Until it isn't.
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2025, 12:20:29 PMYes.
Honestly, Just pulling names off the top of my head without a lot of deep thought.
Deep thought is
not welcome on scoop. Pulling ideas off the top of your head or out of your ass doesn't make fellow scoopers feel inadequate, so
kudos Tower.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 12, 2025, 12:23:47 PMDeep thought is not welcome on scoop. Pulling ideas off the top of your head or out of your ass doesn't make fellow scoopers feel inadequate, so kudos Tower.
I don't know. It just felt unnatural to me.
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2025, 08:52:45 PMI don't like your data points so I will call them disingenuous. C'mon. You are better than that.
MU has a long history of transfers. My time at MU goes back to 84. The transfers in the last 40 years have been a mixed bag, just like the high schoolers. In my 40 years, the top transfers are, off the top of my head
Downing
Boone
Curry
Jackson
Fitzgerald
Lockett
Wilson.
Buzz and JUCO's are a category unto themselves.
I am not opposed to transfers. I cheered for all of the ones in the years prior. I will cheer for any tranfer that Shaka brings in. I just don't see it in the near future. So, I will root for RGV
Kolek (and Omax) probably deserve to be on that list somewhere.
But since my 08-09 fandom began (not including Jucos) we have Jamil, Lockett, Carlino, Fischer, Reinhardt, Jayce Johnson, Rowsey, Chartouney, McKewan, Kolek, Omax, Morsell, Kur.
While there were some key role players there outside of Kolek, I don't see anyone that was "the guy" however getting someone like Lockett or Carlino now would likely come with a hefty price tag. Not sure if I were a highly rated sophomore about to get "my chance in the lime light" I'd be cool with seeing the NIL budget blown on a guy like that, especially if they don't end up putting up some great numbers.
You are correct. And I like your list better.
Your point about an up and coming sophomore vs. Carlino is the crux of the argument.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 12, 2025, 11:26:17 AMI firmly believe Shaka is every bit as capable as Painter to do this. But I'm repeatedly told Shaka has sworn off transfers and will torpedo his credibility is he does. He has picked his hill, move on, case closed.
#FakeNews
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2025, 12:20:29 PMYes.
Honestly, Just pulling names off the top of my head without a lot of deep thought.
And yes, case closed. Until it isn't.
I asked because IIRC, Walter Downing was thought to be a huge get at the time, but really underwhelmed as far as impact. Pretty much the mirror opposite of Kolek, who you didn't list at all. So, I was wondering about your criteria is all.
My criteria was typing the names that popped into my head in a 45 second window.
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2025, 12:48:45 PMMy criteria was typing the names that popped into my head in a 45 second window.
Unacceptable! Focus and show them no mercy.
Quote from: JustinLewisFanClubPres on November 09, 2025, 04:50:33 PMYes. He is a liability out there. Selfish on O and doesn't get back on D. And he has the physical tools to be a stud. Hopefully, he can find the maturity needed to excel but he needs a gut check because he doesn't seem upset to be glued to the bench with freshman playing ahead of him.
And, what am I missing re Parham for those who like him? He's a back hole and bad decision maker who looks for himself first and foremost. He made some plays when the game was over but he has irrational confidence in his abilities considering his limited athleticism. He also plays flat footed and has no explosion. Looks like a great rec leaguer.
Sean lacks in all things that a PG should excel in. Gets into the paint without a plan. Doesn't catch the ball ready to shoot. Dribbles too much. And his D close outs were embarrassing today. Where has he gotten better while sitting out for two years? Did he bother to talk to Tyler at all about how to control tempo and an offense?
Shaka needs a better offensive coach on the bench. You can only give NBA level control to players with NBA level abilities. And we had none of those. So in game coaching matters all the more and unfortunately that is Shaka's biggest weakness. It pains me to say it because I love Shaka and his approach and want it to work. But that was Game 2 with a wholly new roster for Devries and IU and they made us look like we don't belong.
I really hate that I agree with all of this.
My favorite transfers:
For pure immediate impact, it's hard to top Robert Jackson. We desperately needed a center, and he not only filled that need but filled it superbly as one of the important players on a Final Four team.
Kolek obviously exceeded even the loftiest expectations people had for him. I think sometimes folks forget that his first season with Marquette had nearly as many downs as ups - he couldn't shoot, he often suffered from lack of confidence, Shaka had to bench him a couple of times, the general feeling after the season was that we needed better PG play to take the next step. Thankfully, he went on to provide sensational PG play and leadership.
Jamil was a disappointment most of his time at Marquette, but he came through big-time at the end of the Elite Eight season.
Rowsey was fun to watch. He played defense about as well as I would now, but he had stones and a flare for the dramatic.
OMax was a major contributor to a 2-seed.
Morsell brought skill and toughness to Shaka's first team.
Lockett just did his job game after game after game. Scoopers for some reason expected more, especially at first, so they didn't appreciate how reliable and tough he was.
Reinhardt came through in the upset of Nova, and he was always willing to take the big shot. It was only one season, but he really seemed to like being at MU.
I think, lost in all of this is that Tre HAS improved. Sure, the minutes have been limited, but I think he may have taken a step forward.
Just trying to be positive here.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 12, 2025, 03:11:21 PMI think, lost in all of this is that Tre HAS improved. Sure, the minutes have been limited, but I think he may have taken a step forward.
Just trying to be positive here.
He may have, but getting 3 minutes in the first meaningful game wasn't a rousing endorsement.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 12, 2025, 03:31:22 PMHe may have, but getting 3 minutes in the first meaningful game wasn't a rousing endorsement.
True, but he wasn't stand out bad (like some) so maybe his minutes will increase.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 12, 2025, 09:15:52 AMThe joke wrote itself
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/awards/men/atlantic-10-roy.html
Ha! I stand corrected. Thank you.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 12, 2025, 03:31:22 PMHe may have, but getting 3 minutes in the first meaningful game wasn't a rousing endorsement.
Kinda knocking on its arse the theory some Scoopers have that Shaka always plays older guys over younger.
Same with Nigel. Shaka wants to win. He'll willingly play freshmen if they are better than the alternative.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 11, 2025, 11:09:31 PMAll major teams other than Marquette use the portal. Cherry picking the top teams to support your position and ignoring the bottom teams is where I have a problem with your take. There is nothing inherently beneficial in using the portal.
Portal players have a track record and the portal increases the pool of players to choose from. Statistically a larger selection pool and a known track record at the college level is a positive if the scouting is sound. I have no desire to convince anyone here. Believe what you will. It is your choice. Looks like we will have some data points over the coming year or two to see if portal or no portal is a better choice. Shaka is potentially betting his career path. Far more than I.
Quote from: Class71 on November 12, 2025, 05:08:17 PMPortal players have a track record and the portal increases the pool of players to choose from. Statistically a larger selection pool and a known track record at the college level is a positive if the scouting is sound. I have no desire to convince anyone here. Believe what you will. It is your choice. Looks like we will have some data points over the coming year or two to see if portal or no portal is a better choice. Shaka is potentially betting his career path. Far more than I.
Lots and lots of P5 transfers come from non-P5 schools, so there is still plenty of reason to wonder if their track records will translate. But certainly some programs have done a good job of analyzing these players and getting good production from those who "transfer up."
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 12, 2025, 11:32:16 AMAs others (at least @DoctorV) has said, RGV is a package. R&G won't continue without the V. With, or without Shaka (and Duh, I'm talking about more than one year of V problems, of which isn't even certain this year).
There were no V problems tonight
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 12, 2025, 09:36:21 AMIt's exhausting, because we have had these discussions ad nauseam about the portal and I always ask, "who?". The discussion never gets off the ground about "who?", so basically, it's the want Shaka to do something to do something argument and any discussion over who always fizzles.
Shaka should be held accountable for having a team that needs to make baskets to play the way he wants this team to play. That is on his staff and him. They can't shoot below average to play as aggressive as it appears he wants them to play on defense.
The idea the portal is a panacea flies in the face of reality. There are as many poorly assembled rosters full of transfers as there are good rosters full of transfers. One bad transfer class and the same people currently blasting this roster would blast that roster. It's the nature of the beast.
I'm sure Creighton scoop is in free fall this morning and asking questions about McDermott's desire now that he's in retirement mode and about this roster he constructed. It's the nature of the beast.
Given your posting history I always thought there was something wrong with you...
This is pretty well thought out, however. Color me impressed.
I read it and wondered to myself "who"?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 12, 2025, 03:11:21 PMI think, lost in all of this is that Tre HAS improved. Sure, the minutes have been limited, but I think he may have taken a step forward.
Just trying to be positive here.
Yes, he has, and so has fetch.
Hopefully they keep improving to make their 6-12mpg effective.
They work hard and have good attitudes from what it seems, but they just need to star in their roles
Quote from: DoctorV on November 12, 2025, 09:59:31 PMGiven your posting history I always thought there was something wrong with you...
This is pretty well thought out, however. Color me impressed.
I read it and wondered to myself "who"?
You're extremely lost!
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2025, 11:36:01 AMYou keep making stuff up, but carry on.
What did I make up? Shaka is as capable as Painter?
Some posters claiming Shaka will not use the portal?
I tried to advance the notion that Shaka would look to the portal, but I was shut down as foolish.
Some here are convinced Shaka is out of the transfer market, some think he is willing to explore that avenue again. I don't know what is true, but the fact is there are people on both sides, which is not made up.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 13, 2025, 11:58:26 AMWhat did I make up? Shaka is as capable as Painter?
Some posters claiming Shaka will not use the portal?
I tried to advance the notion that Shaka would look to the portal, but I was shut down as foolish.
Some here are convinced Shaka is out of the transfer market, some think he is willing to explore that avenue again. I don't know what is true, but the fact is there are people on both sides, which is not made up.
I don't think anyone is convinced Shaka is out of the transfer market. I think that group of people, myself included, believe it will only happen under very specific circumstances.
Nobody called you foolish, either.
Quote from: tower912 on November 13, 2025, 01:06:37 PMNobody called you foolish, either.
I'm confusing Scoop with my wife and kids. :D
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2025, 02:49:53 PMMy favorite transfers:
For pure immediate impact, it's hard to top Robert Jackson. We desperately needed a center, and he not only filled that need but filled it superbly as one of the important players on a Final Four team.
Kolek obviously exceeded even the loftiest expectations people had for him. I think sometimes folks forget that his first season with Marquette had nearly as many downs as ups - he couldn't shoot, he often suffered from lack of confidence, Shaka had to bench him a couple of times, the general feeling after the season was that we needed better PG play to take the next step. Thankfully, he went on to provide sensational PG play and leadership.
Jamil was a disappointment most of his time at Marquette, but he came through big-time at the end of the Elite Eight season.
Rowsey was fun to watch. He played defense about as well as I would now, but he had stones and a flare for the dramatic.
OMax was a major contributor to a 2-seed.
Morsell brought skill and toughness to Shaka's first team.
Lockett just did his job game after game after game. Scoopers for some reason expected more, especially at first, so they didn't appreciate how reliable and tough he was.
Reinhardt came through in the upset of Nova, and he was always willing to take the big shot. It was only one season, but he really seemed to like being at MU.
My favorite Transfer:
Jerome Whitehead, If he did not make that final basket in the semi-finals, no Natty.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 13, 2025, 04:26:06 PMMy favorite Transfer:
Jerome Whitehead, If he did not make that final basket in the semi-finals, no Natty.
I don't think most folks were counting JC transfers such as Whitehead, Butler, Crowder and DJO. But it's still a free country, for now, so go for it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 12, 2025, 09:36:21 AMIt's exhausting, because we have had these discussions ad nauseam about the portal and I always ask, "who?". The discussion never gets off the ground about "who?", so basically, it's the want Shaka to do something to do something argument and any discussion over who always fizzles.
Shaka should be held accountable for having a team that needs to make baskets to play the way he wants this team to play. That is on his staff and him. They can't shoot below average to play as aggressive as it appears he wants them to play on defense.
The idea the portal is a panacea flies in the face of reality. There are as many poorly assembled rosters full of transfers as there are good rosters full of transfers. One bad transfer class and the same people currently blasting this roster would blast that roster. It's the nature of the beast.
I'm sure Creighton scoop is in free fall this morning and asking questions about McDermott's desire now that he's in retirement mode and about this roster he constructed. It's the nature of the beast.
what programs with rosters primarily of transfers have done poorly? I can think of a few football programs, but who in hoops? Pitino's first season at StJ's comes to mind. Louisville had to retool quickly after Pitino left, but they've got it rollin' now. Others in hoops?
Quote from: Viper on November 14, 2025, 11:09:29 AMwhat programs with rosters primarily of transfers have done poorly? I can think of a few football programs, but who in hoops? Pitino's first season at StJ's comes to mind. Louisville had to retool quickly after Pitino left, but they've got it rollin' now. Others in hoops?
You're not really this stupid, are you?
Literally every bad team in the P5. They dont recruit HS kids thinking the portal will give them the immediate improvement they need. And then they still suck because the impact talent in the portal is so limited every year.
Butler, Depaul, Seton Hall are obvious examples. Every mediocre or terrible team in the other P5 conferences too.
Quote from: Viper on November 14, 2025, 11:09:29 AMwhat programs with rosters primarily of transfers have done poorly? I can think of a few football programs, but who in hoops? Pitino's first season at StJ's comes to mind. Louisville had to retool quickly after Pitino left, but they've got it rollin' now. Others in hoops?
A bunch of them. For example last year's Kansas team brought in six transfers. They were the pre-season #1 team in the country. Ended the season unranked and lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament as a 7 seed to Arkansas.
Heard all about how much KState spent in the portal in 2024. Finished 16-17 and 65th in KenPom last year.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2025, 11:25:05 AMYou're not really this stupid, are you?
He is.
Indiana a season ago.
If transfers were a panacea, every other team would be good. Since that is clearly not the case, and there are the same number of good teams and bad teams as there were pre-portal, a fairly decent case can be made that the portal is ultimately zero sum.
Quote from: tower912 on November 14, 2025, 12:53:35 PMHe is.
Indiana a season ago.
If transfers were a panacea, every other team would be good. Since that is clearly not the case, and there are the same number of good teams and bad teams as there were pre-portal, a fairly decent case can be made that the portal is ultimately zero sum.
If Marquette used it, it would work out perfectly, though.
Oh Lord, again, I have no stake in this game, but these extreme opinions are just as stupid.
Quote from: tower912 on November 14, 2025, 12:53:35 PMHe is.
Indiana a season ago.
If transfers were a panacea, every other team would be good. Since that is clearly not the case, and there are the same number of good teams and bad teams as there were pre-portal, a fairly decent case can be made that the portal is ultimately zero sum.
I know, I know. I've responded to more than a few of his comments with this rather rhetorical question.
Quote from: tower912 on November 14, 2025, 12:53:35 PMHe is.
Indiana a season ago.
If transfers were a panacea, every other team would be good. Since that is clearly not the case, and there are the same number of good teams and bad teams as there were pre-portal, a fairly decent case can be made that the portal is ultimately zero sum.
I tried to explain this very same point several times, but if someone is convinced that using the portal is always or almost always successful, they
totally ignore this "immutable truth" (to borrow a Muggsian term). I used the beat down of Xavier's 12 transfer team as an extreme example of "transfers gone bad", but a couple of scoopers took me seriously. I thought it should have been obvious that I was simply having some fun exposing the portal worshipping on scoop.
Yes, it is possible to build a good team through the portal. Yes, it is possible to build a good team by augmenting quality recruits with portal additions. Buzz did similar at MU. No argument from me and I am actually neutral on the portal.
Using the portal is no more a guarantee of success than any other choice. Since everyone is doing it and there are the exact same number of winners and losers as there were pre-portal.
It is now an extension of recruiting.
It's simply a matter of identifying talent and fit whether it's through the portal, recruiting freshmen and development or a combination of the two. Coaches who do the best at any of the above will be successful. Coaches who do it consistently well will be consistently successful. Coaches who do it poorly will not do well.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2025, 11:25:05 AMYou're not really this stupid, are you?
...Maybe. Possibly.
Quote from: The Sultan on November 14, 2025, 11:30:20 AMA bunch of them. For example last year's Kansas team brought in six transfers. They were the pre-season #1 team in the country. Ended the season unranked and lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament as a 7 seed to Arkansas.
good example. Forgot about KU. All I was inquiring about. Thx Sultan
Quote from: tower912 on November 14, 2025, 12:53:35 PMHe is.
Indiana a season ago.
If transfers were a panacea, every other team would be good. Since that is clearly not the case, and there are the same number of good teams and bad teams as there were pre-portal, a fairly decent case can be made that the portal is ultimately zero sum.
...have we met?
I believe our time at MU overlapped, so perhaps.
This has turned into the best Scoop thread EVER!
Quote from: Xact on November 14, 2025, 07:37:06 PMThis has turned into the best Scoop thread EVER!
Nah, not enough Wille or Muggsy
Quote from: Xact on November 14, 2025, 07:37:06 PMThis has turned into the best Scoop thread EVER!
So am I dumb if I think Shaka would or would not use the portal?
Maybe
Quote from: WhiteTrash on November 15, 2025, 05:40:59 AMSo am I dumb if I think Shaka would or would not use the portal?
I believe you know the answer to that question.