MUScoop

This is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

That's what happens when America is a world laughingstock

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

Umm, was the 13 year civil war against the Assad regime not ugly enough for you?

Anyway, I'm sure you have an extremely nuanced take to share.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 09:40:48 AMUmm, was the 13 year civil war against the Assad regime not ugly enough for you?

Anyway, I'm sure you have an extremely nuanced take to share.

It was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:43:56 AMIt was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

You're such a weenie. Why even start the topic if you're just going to bow out less than 10 minutes later?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:43:56 AMIt was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

Yes, yes, we all know you're totally fine with the mass genocide of people in the Middle East.

Move along.

Like college basketball, it is tough to follow a legend.

What does the S in S-Show stand for?

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 24, 2025, 03:41:45 PMWhat does the S in S-Show stand for?

Sand. There's LOTS of sand in Syria. All Muggsy was trying to say was that there is a big sandstorm in the weather forecast there.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 24, 2025, 03:50:38 PMSand. There's LOTS of sand in Syria. All Muggsy was trying to say was that there is a big sandstorm in the weather forecast there.

At least we aren't using the improper term of "haboob."

Quote from: The Sultan on July 24, 2025, 03:56:32 PMAt least we aren't using the improper term of "haboob."

That would have been quite uncouth for the youthful mind of OP

Quote from: The Sultan on July 24, 2025, 09:45:28 AMYou're such a weenie. Why even start the topic if you're just going to bow out less than 10 minutes later?

And here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 04:55:53 PMAnd here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

He only heard of Syria a couple years ago.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 04:55:53 PMAnd here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

To be fair, he doesn't use google and just lives off of what his friends send him

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

You cannot be Syri-ous!

Seeing a lot of Damascus in politics currently.

Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2025, 05:47:58 PMSeeing a lot of Damascus in politics currently.

Lotta da ICE agents wearing Damascus.

Well we know Wisconsinites are firmly backing the Kurds

That is Assad rip off of my bad pun.

Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2025, 05:53:08 PMThat is Assad rip off of my bad pun.

It was the Middleast I could do.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

I think this is Aleppo to conclusions

Quote from: MU82 on July 24, 2025, 06:00:22 PMIt was the Middleast I could do.

Istanbullshyte. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 24, 2025, 09:49:14 AMYes, yes, we all know you're totally fine with the mass genocide of people in the Middle East.

Move along.

All of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Probably because I don't use google

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Who has placed any blame here with Syria?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Disregard what Sultan said, I didn't look but it's 100% Israel's fault

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point. So why do you continue to post your delusions and fantasies here? And it's super interesting not really you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, and this is relevant...how? which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality this is rich, coming from someone who, in one insane post, suggested that A) the US send an assassination team to take out Putin and that B) you "assured" us that the Russians would surrender immediately and C) people who could not see this had their "heads up their asses" You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, oh really? and the issues within that religion, like some Christians have for centuries that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn. Not true. You're living in a la-la-land you're the mayor Muggsy! and cannot handle immutable truths. And on whose authority do you declare what those are? 

*literally anything bad happening anywhere else in the world* Muggsy:"how strange you condemn Israel but not this"

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government. The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

So you agree Israel is committing a genocide? Interesting

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 24, 2025, 10:20:11 PM*literally anything bad happening anywhere else in the world* Muggsy:"how strange you condemn Israel but not this"

He's awfully quiet on the gestapo tactics of his own country

My post was on Syria and of course all of you attack Israel.   Shocker. 

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 25, 2025, 06:59:14 AMSo you agree Israel is committing a genocide? Interesting

No, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:09:45 AMNo, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/mass-starvation-looms-gaza-european-leaders-hold-emergency/story?id=124048464

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Israel is a genocidal state that no longer deserves to exist in it's current iteration.

Children are being starved to death because Israel refuses to allow aid in. 

Two million people have four places in the entire zone to pick up food.

And when they do, they're gunned down by the IDF.

All of this is straight from the Nazi playbook.

Ghettoize a population, steal/destroy their possessions, and then starve and murder them.

"Never again" shouldn't be a rallying cry only for Jewish people.

Defending what is happening in Gaza puts you firmly on the wrong side of history.

If you need help coming back to the right side, I'd be happy to place the genocide on full display for you in DMs.  I'd put the pictures here, but they're extremely graphic. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:09:45 AMNo, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

UN
Amnesty International
Doctors without Borders

Just because the US and Israel don't believe it, does not mean it is not widely considered a genocide.

Open your eyes, child.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:08:04 AMMy post was on Syria and of course all of you attack Israel.   Shocker. 

Mostly because it exposes what an obvious hypocrite you are.

It's wild how some of you complain about people being snatched off the street by unidentified government agents wearing masks, but you're silent when that kind of thing happens all the time in Russia and North Korea.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 25, 2025, 09:38:59 AMIt's wild how some of you complain about people being snatched off the street by unidentified government agents wearing masks, but you're silent when that kind of thing happens all the time in Russia and North Korea.

Waiting for Ghislaine to fall off the balcony of a tall building.

1/4 of all of the people who have died of starvation in Gaza in the last 22 months have died in the last three days.

Quote from: tower912 on July 25, 2025, 09:46:32 AMWaiting for Ghislaine to fall off the balcony of a tall building.

Nah. She'll be deported to El Salvador any day now.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 25, 2025, 10:25:03 AM1/4 of all of the people who have died of starvation in Gaza in the last 22 months have died in the last three days.

But will you denounce Hamas?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 25, 2025, 07:37:42 AMIsrael is a genocidal state that no longer deserves to exist in it's current iteration.

Children are being starved to death because Israel refuses to allow aid in. 

Two million people have four places in the entire zone to pick up food.

And when they do, they're gunned down by the IDF.

All of this is straight from the Nazi playbook.

Ghettoize a population, steal/destroy their possessions, and then starve and murder them.

"Never again" shouldn't be a rallying cry only for Jewish people.

Defending what is happening in Gaza puts you firmly on the wrong side of history.

If you need help coming back to the right side, I'd be happy to place the genocide on full display for you in DMs.  I'd put the pictures here, but they're extremely graphic. 

This is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

How come you accept the death of innocent civilians on one side, but not the other?
Are some civilian lives more worthy than others?

Quote from: Pakuni on July 26, 2025, 08:01:22 AMHow come you accept the death of innocent civilians on one side, but not the other?
Are some civilian lives more worthy than others?

I'm not accepting anything.  This is in response to labeling Israel a genocidal state.  Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem.  If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 08:14:01 AMI'm not accepting anything. You just did! you accepted it as a consequence of war. Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem. So Egypt is responsible by not helping? It would be great if they did, but this is just another example of deflection, something that you are a master of. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. But they didn't. Feeding the Gazans is now the victor's responsibility. 

Maybe the entire Arab world should stop using the Palestinians as pawns and allow some refugees to move there?  Maybe Egypt shouldn't close their border to Gazans and we should help?  It's also interesting that  1 million or so Palestinians work in Israel when it's an "apartheid state".  It's even more interesting that if Israel were to leave that land entirely, that tiny speck of land would turn into another hell hole, just like 4/5 of all Muslim majority states.  If Israel were to lay down their arms, WTF do you think would happen?  If Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, etc, etc, laid down there arms do you think Israel would go Rambo on all civilians? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 09:20:43 AMMaybe the entire Arab world should stop using the Palestinians as pawns and allow some refugees to move there?  Maybe Egypt shouldn't close their border to Gazans and we should help?  It's also interesting that  1 million or so Palestinians work in Israel when it's an "apartheid state".  It's even more interesting that if Israel were to leave that land entirely, that tiny speck of land would turn into another hell hole, just like 4/5 of all Muslim majority states.  If Israel were to lay down their arms, WTF do you think would happen?  If Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, etc, etc, laid down there arms do you think Israel would go Rambo on all civilians? 

Why should it be responsibility of the Arab states and not the one with control over the territory? Why should Palestinians have to move away from their home?

Face it, you've bought into the propaganda and are excusing Israel for atrocities that you would be all up in arms with otherwise.

You're just a person not to be taken seriously.

Maybe it's more interesting that you continue to demonstrate your inability to discuss anything rationally here. Instead, you lecture on what to you are "immutable truths" and "reality". We are supposed to listen and marvel at your brilliant takes.

However, I must congratulate you for showing a few signs of empathy for humans. Since you absolutely refuse to walk back old posts, I will continue to use them. Your acknowledgement of starving people (Muslims no less!) is a huge improvement over your refusal a few years ago to acknowledge the tragedy of the woman who a gator chomped in half. Your only concern was that you wanted a "thorough investigation" as to why the gator was put down. And you once posted that moose had the right to kill people "without mercy". So good for you Muggsy! And not once have you have mentioned the magnificent animals that have died in Gaza due to the bombing. I'm very proud of you.

 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 08:14:01 AMI'm not accepting anything.  This is in response to labeling Israel a genocidal state.  Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem.  If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. 

If you believe that intentional civilian casualties are just a part of war, then so is Oct. 7.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

Civilian deaths by starvation are not a part of any war.  84,000+ PEOPLE have died as a result of the war in Gaza.  Including aid workers, journalists, and children.  These are war crimes.  Period.  The Gaza strip has been one giant concentration camp for years.  The civilians there have no right of movement.  They can't come and go as they please.  They've been thoroughly rounded up and CONCENTRATED.

https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/report-israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/the-double-genocide-in-gaza-by-dr-gregory-stanton

You won't even click those links.  You have no interest in seeking out any information that doesn't conform to your preconceived notion of right and wrong.  Which is EXTREMELY juvenile.  These are PEOPLE.  Have you no empathy for them?  What is their crime?  Existence?  Do they not matter to you because they're Muslims?  Just say that if it's what you truly think.

The holocaust didn't happen in a week or a month.  It took years, and the slow creep of wanton death numbed the people as to what was happening.  Which is EXACTLY what is happening right now in Gaza.  Many people in Israel don't see Palestinians as humans, and that is exactly what the government wants.  Dehumanization and extermination.  Destruction of all infrastructure, health care, education, and humanitarian zones... Israel can't just say everything is Hamas and fire away without criticism.

Why do you say what is happening in Sudan is a genocide, yet deny there is one in Gaza?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2025, 10:29:17 AMYou have no interest in seeking out any information that doesn't conform to your preconceived notion of right and wrong.  Which is EXTREMELY juvenile.  These are PEOPLE.  Have you no empathy for them?  What is their crime?  Existence?  Do they not matter to you because they're Muslims?  Just say that if it's what you truly think.

I think there is just a HINT of empathy implied in Muggsy's post, but other than that-spot on.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

I was raised Jewish, and my brother, an Orthodox Jew, lives in Israel. I firmly believe Israel has a right to exist, to thrive and to defend itself. I even reluctantly justified innocent Palestinian civilians dying in Israel's initial reaction to Oct. 7: Hamas had declared war, and did so in an especially evil way, so Israel had to defend itself by just about any means.

It's nearly two years later, and the war, for all intents and purposes, has been over for a long time. It's shameful that Israel's leaders are purposefully starving and casually killing innocent people, and I agree with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Israelis who believe Bibi wants to keep the "war" (as it is) going to protect his own interests.

So am I antisemitic and anti-Israel?

Probably according to Muggs. But he's also the dude who thought it would be easy to just take Iran's oil. Simple man with simple thoughts.

Anyway this is why he was kicked off Dodds' board. For as low a signal-to-noise ratio they have, even he's an outlier.

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 11:04:12 AMI was raised Jewish, and my brother, an Orthodox Jew, lives in Israel. I firmly believe Israel has a right to exist, to thrive and to defend itself. I even reluctantly justified innocent Palestinian civilians dying in Israel's initial reaction to Oct. 7: Hamas had declared war, and did so in an especially evil way, so Israel had to defend itself by just about any means.

It's nearly two years later, and the war, for all intents and purposes, has been over for a long time. It's shameful that Israel's leaders are purposefully starving and casually killing innocent people, and I agree with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Israelis who believe Bibi wants to keep the "war" (as it is) going to protect his own interests.

So am I antisemitic and anti-Israel?

Hamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

It's common knowledge that intercepting missiles is achieved by firing machine guns into thousands of starving people. You're spot on

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

I think Israel's leadership is committing war crimes. And just plain crimes, too. And is lacking in morals, ethics and decency. As a supporter of all the things I already mentioned, it makes me ill. It's also counterproductive to Israel's cause.

You are focused on semantics. Focus on what people are actually saying and/or doing before lobbing accusations. We all know what Bibi is saying and doing, and what his most powerful supporters in America are saying and doing, too. It's repulsive.

And to answer my own question - one you weaseled out of answering - I'm quite certain I'm neither antisemitic nor anti-Israel.

https://nyti.ms/3J2Ime4

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 01:33:20 PMI think Israel's leadership is committing war crimes. And just plain crimes, too. And is lacking in morals, ethics and decency. As a supporter of all the things I already mentioned, it makes me ill. It's also counterproductive to Israel's cause.

You are focused on semantics. Focus on what people are actually saying and/or doing before lobbing accusations. We all know what Bibi is saying and doing, and what his most powerful supporters in America are saying and doing, too. It's repulsive.

And to answer my own question - one you weaseled out of answering - I'm quite certain I'm neither antisemitic nor anti-Israel.

You weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

If starving civilians is an asset for Hamas, then why is Israel starving civilians?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 02:39:29 PMYou weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Its probably mostly because our tax dollars aren't going to those groups.

Also, from what I would assume, you'd do a genocide slowly and quietly or else face severe wrath from the globe - which is exactly what Israel is doing.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 02:39:29 PMYou weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Open your eyes and, if you have the capability, use common sense.

Israelis have lost faith in their leadership, including the war criminal in charge.

Fthe last two weeks, the State Department's office of Israeli Palestinian Affairs has had no director, because the person in that job was fired along with more than 1,300 other employees on July 11.

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 05:25:28 PMOpen your eyes and, if you have the capability, use common sense.

Israelis have lost faith in their leadership, including the war criminal in charge.

With all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

And none of that changes the facts.

Netanyahu is a criminal in his own country (that's democracy for you) and a war criminal

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Proportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 08:54:41 AMProportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

Burmese pythons are a nuisance in Florida but Florida is a garbage state

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 08:54:41 AMProportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

That's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Well, Netanyahu is a war criminal.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Ridiculous post filled with false equivalences, strawman arguments and outright fallacies. The death and starvation going on now in Gaza is 100% unnecessary; it is a choice being made by corrupt Israeli leaders.

I suggest you read the just-published New York Times Magazine article headlined: SECRET MEETINGS, ALTERED RECORDS, IGNORED WARNINGS: HOW ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER PROLONGED THE WAR IN GAZA TO STAY IN POWER

It's behind a paywall, so I won't cut-and-paste the whole thing, but here are the first several paragraphs showing how Netanyahu has kept the war going for a year and a half longer than necessary. Why? For one reason only: To protect his own self-interests.

Six months into the war in the Gaza Strip, Benjamin Netanyahu was preparing to bring it to a halt. Negotiations were underway for an extended cease-fire with Hamas, and he was ready to agree to a compromise. He had dispatched an envoy to convey Israel's new position to the Egyptian mediators. Now, at a meeting at the Ministry of Defense in Tel Aviv, he needed to get his cabinet onboard. He had kept the plan off the meeting's written agenda. The idea was to reveal it suddenly, preventing resistant ministers from coordinating their response.

It was April 2024, long before Netanyahu mounted his political comeback. The proposal on the table would have paused the Gaza war for at least six weeks. It would have created a window for negotiations with Hamas over a permanent truce. More than 30 hostages captured by Hamas at the start of the war would have been released within weeks. Still more would have been freed if the truce was extended. And the devastation of Gaza, where roughly two million people were trying to survive daily attacks, would have come to a halt.

Ending the war would then have raised the chances of a landmark peace deal with Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's most powerful country. For months, the Saudi leadership had secretly signaled its willingness to accelerate peace talks with Israel — as long as the war in Gaza stopped. The normalization of ties between the Saudi and Israeli governments, an achievement that had eluded every Israeli leader since the state's founding in 1948, would have secured Israel's status in the region as well as Netanyahu's long-term legacy.

But for Netanyahu, a truce also came with personal risk. As prime minister, he led a fragile coalition that depended on the support of far-right ministers who wanted to occupy Gaza, not withdraw from it. They sought a long war that would ultimately enable Israel to re-establish Jewish settlements in Gaza. If a cease-fire came too soon, these ministers might decide to collapse the ruling coalition. That would prompt early elections that polls showed Netanyahu would lose. Out of office, Netanyahu was vulnerable. Since 2020, he had been standing trial for corruption; the charges, which he denied, mostly related to granting favors to businessmen in exchange for gifts and favorable media coverage. Shorn of power, Netanyahu would lose the ability to force out the attorney general who oversaw his prosecution — as indeed his government would later attempt to do.

As the cabinet discussed other matters, an aide hurried into the meeting room with a document summarizing Israel's new negotiating position, quietly placing it in front of Netanyahu. He gave it one last read, ticking off various points with his pen. The route to a truce presented real danger, but he seemed ready to move ahead.

Then Bezalel Smotrich, his finance minister, interrupted the proceedings. As a young activist in 2005, Smotrich was detained for weeks — though never charged — on suspicion of plotting to blow up vehicles on a major highway in order to slow the dismantling of Israeli settlements in Gaza. Along with Itamar Ben-Gvir, the far-right national-security minister, Smotrich was now one of the strongest advocates in the cabinet for re-establishing those settlements. He had recently called for most of Gaza's Palestinian population to leave. Now, at the cabinet meeting, Smotrich declared that he had heard rumors of a plan for a deal. The details disturbed him. "I want you to know that if a surrender agreement like this is brought forward, you no longer have a government," Smotrich said. "The government is finished."

It was 5:44 p.m., according to minutes of the meeting. At that moment, the prime minister was forced to choose between the chance of a truce and his political survival — and Netanyahu opted for survival. There was no cease-fire plan, he promised Smotrich. "No, no, there's no such thing," he said. And as the cabinet discussion moved on, Netanyahu quietly leaned over to his security advisers and whispered what must have by then become obvious to them: "Don't present the plan."

+++

Sorry Muggs, but Bibi knew what the right thing to do was; he simply chose not to do it. Why keep defending a war criminal whom even most Israelis no longer want to lead their country?

Not only has he orchestrated the preventable deaths and starvation of innocent people, and not only did he personally prevent Israeli hostages from being returned to their families, but he also scuttled possible lasting peace between his country and Saudi Arabia. What a leader!

These were choices he made not to make Israel safer but to keep himself in power.

What began as a just war of self-defense (one that had support of pretty much every country in the world that mattered) has evolved into what you would call a "Sh!t-Show" (one that has been condemned by most of the free world).

It's performance theater by a war criminal just to protect himself.

Millions of Israelis want to be done with him. Are they antisemitic and anti-Israel, too?

Now, please, tell me how many innocents died in Gettysburg as justification for Bibi starving and murdering human beings for no reason.

Muggs-

Tactical question for you.

Would you utilize the giant space lasers Israel has against Iran and Hamas or would you prefer they continue to use them to start wildfires across the globe?

I'll hang up and listen.  Thanks

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Fully down the propaganda hole.  What a disgraceful Marquette grad.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 27, 2025, 09:23:33 AMFully down the propaganda hole.  What a disgraceful Marquette grad.

We know you like Hamas. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:25:18 AMWe know you like Hamas. 

I don't but I understand why they exist.  Rebel groups have existed since the dawn of time in an attempt to throw off the shackles of their oppressors.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:25:18 AMWe know you like Hamas. 

You have your head in the sand and this board is spending too much time dealing with your ignorance.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Can you define to me how one discerns who is to blame, and what defines the difference between state sponsored terrorism of proxy groups, support of freedom fighters, or supporting "intelligence operations" that recruit and fund civilians to commit acts of war?

Proportionality to population size is a criminally insane concept when it comes to human death. That's it. That's the post.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 27, 2025, 10:11:48 AMYou have your head in the sand and this board is spending too much time dealing with your ignorance.

Muggs doesn't think we should hold western-style liberal societies to a higher standard when judging how they use violence. It's a tremendous self own he'll never wrap his head around.

To be fair to muggs, he likely would have seen the Warsaw ghetto uprising as a terrorist attack

Substitute "Muggsy's" for the word "our" in my second signature to get to the heart of the problem. I'm thinking about changing it to that.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 27, 2025, 09:28:20 AMI don't but I understand why they exist.  Rebel groups have existed since the dawn of time in an attempt to throw off the shackles of their oppressors.

I'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 04:38:28 PMI'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

Agree. I would add that the belief (probably Muggsy's) that severely reducing the number of Hamas fighters means that Hamas will no longer be a threat is naive. No doubt the young male survivors of this war are already imbued with a visceral hatred of Israelis. Hamas will rebuild. Not if. When. 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 27, 2025, 05:24:53 PMAgree. I would add that the belief (probably Muggsy's) that severely reducing the number of Hamas fighters means that Hamas will no longer be a threat is naive. No doubt the young male survivors of this war are already imbued with a visceral hatred of Israelis. Hamas will rebuild. Not if. When. 

Yup.
Contrary to the advice they're getting from one prominent Scooper, the Israelis are mistaken if they think they can kill their way to a peaceful existence.
Of course, we probably shouldn't pretend that's the goal here.

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 09:22:14 AMI suggest you read the just-published New York Times Magazine article headlined: SECRET MEETINGS, ALTERED RECORDS, IGNORED WARNINGS: HOW ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER PROLONGED THE WAR IN GAZA TO STAY IN POWER

Professor Timothy Snyder explains it as "the classic dictatorial position: He needs to die in bed holding all executive power to stay out of prison. This means that he will do whatever he can to gain power, and once in power will do all that he can to never let it go. This is a basic incentive structure which underlies everything else. It is entirely inconsistent with democracy."

Of course, he was not referring to Bibi here.

Good luck, America.

Muggsy where is your dental practice

https://bsky.app/profile/marisakabas.bsky.social/post/3luyikkksjc2o

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 07:42:53 PMMuggsy where is your dental practice

I'm not a dentist. 

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 04:38:28 PMI'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

They can be both.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 28, 2025, 02:05:09 PMhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

Too bad Netanyahu will never face a day in jail.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 28, 2025, 02:05:09 PMhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

All the Israeli Jews in those organizations obviously are antisemitic and anti-Israel.

"send only bombs to gaza, not food"

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas. 

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

Here you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

Muggsy thinks she deserved it.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

But does he condemn hamas?

(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgraphics.axios.com%2Fhermesv2%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who%2Ffallbacks%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who-fallback.png&t=1753891347&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c94-c00722012100&sig=BqwyIgACY8ztGU.fXsIzNg--~D)

Also, only 29% of Americans polled approve of Netanyahu's handling of the situation.

Quote from: MU82 on July 30, 2025, 11:08:00 AM(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgraphics.axios.com%2Fhermesv2%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who%2Ffallbacks%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who-fallback.png&t=1753891347&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c94-c00722012100&sig=BqwyIgACY8ztGU.fXsIzNg--~D)

Also, only 29% of Americans polled approve of Netanyahu's handling of the situation.

Only 29% of America can comprehend five point plans

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

This isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2025, 12:17:25 PMThis isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

I didn't know

Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2025, 12:17:25 PMThis isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

Maybe. The accusations that he was a disgruntled employee seem to come from the GHF itself, which he criticized for the unsafe way they were dealing with the crisis. GHF has been WIDELY criticized for their shitty work.

And this is far from the first time there have been reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF at food distribution points, or that Israel is systematically starving them.

I don't have any idea if he was "persona non grata in ex-Special Forces", but feels a bit like an effort to shoot the messenger.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 02:05:42 PMI didn't know
Maybe. The accusations that he was a disgruntled employee seem to come from the GHF itself, which he criticized for the unsafe way they were dealing with the crisis. GHF has been WIDELY criticized for their shitty work.

And this is far from the first time there have been reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF at food distribution points, or that Israel is systematically starving them.

I don't have any idea if he was "persona non grata in ex-Special Forces", but feels a bit like an effort to shoot the messenger.

There is shades of grey to all of this, but it's not like he was a vocal leader in this situation leading up to this. But all of a sudden his military credentials and selfless heroism in speaking up about the GHF are touted every time he's come up on numerous networks and made very big and aggressive claims.  So people who knew him before are like "wait a second, this dude is a problematic person and a liar suddenly now being venerated in media circles".  In a lot of these situations, it's pretty even.  Whether volunteers or journalists or whatnot, there is a smattering of support and credential bashing on either side when claims are made about the conflict.  I've seen NOTHING positive about Aguilar's background over the last month (he started getting media buzz about his "experiences" in early July), and only just "oh my god a Green Beret who worked for GHF is saying this".

Plenty of people may say "oh it doesn't matter, Israel is still being evil".  But if the reality is Israel has created near impossible situations for success in aid distribution, GHF has been horrible as the moderator of such aid, and Israel has been trigger happy in responding to disturbances or chaotic crowd around aid sites...that's a very real problem that should be highlighted, addressed, and called to account.

Saying stuff like "I saw the IDF machine gunning toddlers in the head and re-aligning their rifle sights using old women sifting through flour" with zero evidence, substantiation, and solely on the word of spurious sources...it gives anyone the opportunity to dismiss all of the above as exaggeration or fabrication and further widen the chasm of hysterical people screaming at each other in the void

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

Aguilar has been completely discredited.  This is textbook propaganda/b-crap. 

Muggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 04:45:16 PMMuggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Not one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

We don't know that.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 05:10:25 PMWe don't know that.

Either way, they got what they deserved.  None of them probably appreciated manatees

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 05:29:18 PMEither way, they got what they deserved.  None of them probably appreciated manatees

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Their grandparents shouldn't have voted for Hamas.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 04:45:16 PMMuggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Manatees are incapable of war.  They shouldn't be part of this discussion. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 30, 2025, 06:22:43 PMManatees are incapable of war.  They shouldn't be part of this discussion. 

The point completely flew over your head.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 06:27:35 PMThe point completely flew over your head.

Like manatees when I run over them with my boat

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 06:30:05 PMLike manatees when I run over them with my boat

If you hit them directly enough it saves you the trouble of having to filet them

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Very concerning. Especially considering how many drop by for their Anders Carlson update.

Ban them.

Maybe if you had a 5 point plan you'd be a 4.5 in pickleball by now

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 30, 2025, 04:40:53 PMAguilar has been completely discredited.  This is textbook propaganda/b-crap. 

Children as still dead trying to stop from starving to death from IDF bullets.

Have you no sense of humanity?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 06:13:35 AMChildren as still dead trying to stop from starving to death from IDF bullets.

Have you no sense of humanity?

Yes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

That's such a good deflection.  I've changed my mind with that argument.  Netanyahu should get a Nobel Peace Prize because Scoop isn't getting outraged about Africa

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.

Initially yes. But not anymore. Israel went past proportionate response a long time ago.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMI also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

If someone doesn't care about ALL injustice, they can't really care about SPECIFIC injustice? That's just silly and dumb deflection.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 07:42:52 AMThat's such a good deflection.  I've changed my mind with that argument.  Netanyahu should get a Nobel Peace Prize because Scoop isn't getting outraged about Africa

It's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

You've changed my mind.  What's happening in Gaza is fine because Sultan isn't outraged about African kids starving.  This is why we should usurp the Serengeti

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

Hamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 07:59:54 AMYou've changed my mind.  What's happening in Gaza is fine because Sultan isn't outraged about African kids starving.  This is why we should usurp the Serengeti

That's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered, and actual mass genocide, which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:21:36 AMThat's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered and actual mass genocide which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Yes, you've changed my mind.  The lack of outrage over the death of children across the world has changed my view on the genocide in Gaza

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:21:36 AMThat's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered, and actual mass genocide, which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Again, you are being illogical. Just because someone isn't outraged about all injustice doesn't mean they can't be outraged over specific cases of injustice.

But, as Americans, the injustice happening in Gaza that is being caused by one of our supposed allies, is going to be front and center.

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 31, 2025, 08:15:16 AMHamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

The IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation. 

I'm tired of manatees being endangered getting so much attention from the public and conservationists. Do you know how many thousands of species of animals are endangered? Literally thousands of species of insects alone! Why don't people publically outcry about every single endangered species? We never get an answer from these people! Until people start posting about every single endangered species, no one is allowed to post about manatees being endangered.

These speciests make me sick

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:36:06 AMThe IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzId6DGg9YcwAWuYxwTIBJLyDJ6bHTi0lV1w&s)

Quote from: The Sultan on July 31, 2025, 08:30:59 AMAgain, you are being illogical. Just because someone isn't outraged about all injustice doesn't mean they can't be outraged over specific cases of injustice.

But, as Americans, the injustice happening in Gaza that is being caused by one of our supposed allies, is going to be front and center.

No, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?   How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 27, 2025, 01:12:03 PMMuggs doesn't think we should hold western-style liberal societies to a higher standard when judging how they use violence. It's a tremendous self own he'll never wrap his head around.

Don't make me tap the sign

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

Is the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:43:29 AMNo, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?  How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

To be fair, we're accelerating the number of American kids that will needlessly die with current domestic policy, so it'll even out. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:49:54 AMIs the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

We've given money hand over fist to the entire middle east. If the Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:55:56 AMWe've given money hand over fist to the entire middle east. If tbe entire Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate?

Why would they leave, and why would they do that.

They can defend themselves without the help of the United States.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:56:56 AMWhy would they leave, and why would they do that.

They can defend themselves without the help of the United States.

So we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:02:02 AMSo we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

Depends if they allow hotels and golf courses to be built cheaply

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:43:29 AMNo, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?   How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

No I am correct. And either you don't have the ability to see that, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

Regardless, your continued deflections on this topic pretty much shows a lot about your priorities really.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:02:02 AMSo we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

We should not give aid to countries committing a genocide.  Correct.

See how easy that is.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 09:05:05 AMWe should not give aid to countries committing a genocide.  Correct.

See how easy that is.

LOL. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

Hell, man ... you are outraged when Marquette doesn't play well. What about African kids dying? Are you a racist?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:49:54 AMIs the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

And even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2025, 09:18:15 AMAnd even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

Unfortunately, they've descended deep into fascism in Israel.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2025, 09:18:15 AMAnd even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

But we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

It's because we say "god bless the troops"

Usurping oil fields. Like his plan to assassinate Putin and his "assurance" that the Russians would immediately surrender, the US should do this ASAP. We will meet no resistance.

Unilaterally declaring what reality and immutable facts are. Furiously lecturing us on his obsessions on a such a wide range of subjects while we remain unable to grasp the inherent truths Muggsy keeps gifting us. His crown jewel is his 5-point plan for world peace, even though he has not revealed it to us in its entirety.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

If you think that's equally as bad as the tactics being used in Sudan, why are you so passionate about defending it?

At least Israel is being peaceful and respectful about the 2.3M Palestinians in the West Bank

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

Muggsy going from full-scale invasion of Iran to anti-war zealot is not the plot twist I expected here.

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 31, 2025, 08:15:16 AMHamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

Absolutely.  Again, I'm not blanket justifying IDF/Israeli action or policy and my argument is different than Muggsy, but Hamas ABSOLUTELY is and has been killing Palestinian civilians, children included.  Not saying that any civilian shooting attributed to the IDF was actually Hamas, but shooting at and killing Palestinians to keep control, prevent movement or push a narrative is absolutely something that has been happening for a LONG time.

No matter what you think of Israel or their actions, good bad or otherwise, Hamas has never been and will never be good, moral, or protective leaders of their own people without even taking their aggression towards Israel into account. Their end goal is power and an eradication of Israel, not an uplifting and salvation of Palestinians.

Quote from: JWags85 on July 31, 2025, 10:08:49 AMAbsolutely.  Again, I'm not blanket justifying IDF/Israeli action or policy and my argument is different than Muggsy, but Hamas ABSOLUTELY is and has been killing Palestinian civilians, children included.  Not saying that any civilian shooting attributed to the IDF was actually Hamas, but shooting at and killing Palestinians to keep control, prevent movement or push a narrative is absolutely something that has been happening for a LONG time.

No matter what you think of Israel or their actions, good bad or otherwise, Hamas has never been and will never be good, moral, or protective leaders of their own people without even taking their aggression towards Israel into account. Their end goal is power and an eradication of Israel, not an uplifting and salvation of Palestinians.

I don't think many critics of Israel here - or in the West in general - argue that Hamas is good, moral or protective leaders of their people. 

"Hamas is bad, too" is little more than a deflection of the legitimate denunciation of Israel's actions here. Especially since we ought to be holding Israel to a higher standard than we would a terrorist organization.

Is Muggsy just doing a bit, like Herm used to?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

I asked before, and got no answer, how do you assign blame? Where do you start the timeline in something that has been going on for countless decades?

I know the simple answer for many, including yourself, whether you will admit it or not...

Israel is our ally, they are on the side of good. If you are not our ally, you are on the side of bad.

Gazans, Palestinians, etc., would argue that there actions were in self defense, due to repeated settler attacks, arrests and detainments without trials (they would call them hostages), military actions in the West Bank, and land seizures.

That is the problem in these types of things, they are way more complex than many will admit, and I'm really not taking sides, I just address the complexity of things.

But the fact that the entire world now thinks Israel has gone way way too far, to the extremes of genocide, should be a wake up call to a lot of people. And we are funding these acts, which is why so many are specifically distressed about it.

From Axios:

Keenly aware of Israel's reputational crisis, Netanyahu sat for an interview last week with the Nelk Boys — a team of MAGA YouTubers popular with young men.

The backlash was swift and extraordinary: the Nelk Boys' own audience turned on them, accusing the hosts of platforming a war criminal and failing to ask meaningful questions.

The group apologized by hosting a parade of openly antisemitic influencers to present "the other side," including white nationalist Nick Fuentes and "red pill" podcaster Myron Gaines.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 31, 2025, 10:35:29 AMI don't think many critics of Israel here - or in the West in general - argue that Hamas is good, moral or protective leaders of their people. 

"Hamas is bad, too" is little more than a deflection of the legitimate denunciation of Israel's actions here. Especially since we ought to be holding Israel to a higher standard than we would a terrorist organization.

I was purely replying to Jesu questioning if Hamas was shooting Palestinians. And it's not a deflection of "both sides are bad" but more a response to this continued idea of see of any time shots are fired in the area of civilians, it's automatically attributed to IDF cause "who else would be shooting" as if Hamas hasn't fired upon Palestinians countless times.

And while I think the "just release the hostages" knee jerk mantra is a bit tired and reductive, it also sort of muddles the very real fact that while Hamas may be defanged in terms of counter attacking Tel Aviv, they are still actively and violently sabotaging the lives of Gazans in unison with Israel, and giving Israel defenders plausible deniability for aggression. 

Honestly if Israel pulled back for 2 weeks and let the powers that be in Gaza, aka Hamas, deal with aid and the ongoing situation, it would be illuminating to some of that.  But the Likud lunatics would never allow it and the PR battle lines are probably too deeply dug at this point

Quote from: forgetful on July 31, 2025, 10:58:28 AMWhere do you start the timeline in something that has been going on for countless decades?

Israel is our ally, they are on the side of good. If you are not our ally, you are on the side of bad.

Gazans, Palestinians, etc., would argue that their actions were in self defense.

That is the problem in these types of things, they are way more complex than many will admit. I just address the complexity of things.

Forgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 31, 2025, 12:00:45 PMForgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

Muggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:36:06 AMThe IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation.

This is true if you ignore literally every single person that has been worked on the ground in Gaza.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:55:56 AMIF  If the Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, Let's give them New Jersey. They would gain about 1/3 more square miles and territory without a desert. what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate? What? Gumdrop smiles? Rivers of chocolate? Even for you, this is really weird.::)

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 12:12:37 PMMuggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

Wrong. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 06:34:58 AMWrong. 

LOL, were you trying to prove him right or something?

Quote from: The Sultan on July 31, 2025, 09:03:00 AMNo I am correct. And either you don't have the ability to see that, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

Regardless, your continued deflections on this topic pretty much shows a lot about your priorities really.

No, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd.  We all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.  The sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.  I'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 08:03:34 AMNo, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd. 

Nope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 08:03:34 AMWe all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.

Yes. Because they are committing genocide.

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 08:03:34 AMThe sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.

I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 08:03:34 AMI'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

Quote from: The Sultan on Today at 08:11:24 AMNope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.


Yes. Because they are committing genocide.


I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.


I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

Ya, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 08:03:34 AMThe reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

Lots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 09:00:00 AMYa, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

It is neither, but you don't have the capacity to counter it in a meaningful way.

Which is your usual Scoop behavior, whether here or on the MUBB forum, so I don't know why I would expect any different now.

Quote from: MuggsyB on Today at 09:00:00 AMYa, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

Have you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on Today at 09:22:29 AMHave you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

He is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on Today at 09:49:18 AMHe is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Muggsy 2028!!

Quote from: MUBurrow on Today at 09:06:47 AMLots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Including genocide

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMAs you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

On the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Congrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

Quote from: The Sultan on Today at 11:37:43 AMOn the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

To be fair, Catholic history is mixed on genocide.  Was both a victim and willing participant in it.  It's kind of confusing

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Empathy is dead

Quote from: Hards Alumni on Today at 11:41:04 AMCongrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

They should have earned their safety by being born somewhere else to different parents

Quote from: Shaka Shart on Today at 11:48:50 AMEmpathy is dead

I'd post a pic of Republican Jesus but rocky and topper would give me a vacation.

Quote from: MUBurrow on Today at 09:06:47 AMLots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

I had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

While nowhere near Muggsy's stance, I'm probably more sympathetic/favorable to Israel than most here.  But my thing is, in the land of extremes, my frustations lie between the "ISRAEL IS THE NEW NAZIS WITH THIS GENOCIDE" and "RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, ALL PALESTINIANS ARE HAMAS". 

I don't want to argue the definitions or semantics of "genocide", but even if you want to contend its not a genocide and more the ugly business of war, my issue with Israel is they have no semblance of a plan anymore, IMO.  I don't think they (outside of some boisterous dopes in Likud) want to completely eradicate Gazans and turn it into an Israel resort destination, but I don't know what they are trying to accomplish anymore either.  And equally as bad, they have completely given up or abandoned any source of positive optics.  It doesn't have to be selecting "Israel Good Hamas Bad" or vice versa, both groups are guilty of heinous crap over the last year, but Israel as the more powerful and more responsible party, has allowed whatever Hamas narratives they want to run wild with their recklessness in this campaign.  Hamas and their PR arm live in plausible deniability and Israel doesn't.  As I said in my post replying to earlier to Jesu, Hamas has shot plenty of Palestinians, but because of a variety of factors and sloppy nonsense, the burden of proof is firmly on the IDF.  And every time they do something, malicious, accidental, as CYA, or otherwise to "non combatants", they take 5 steps backwards and automatically assume all blame for anything until explicitly proven otherwise...in a situation where explicit proof is hard to come by.

Back to my first paragraph in the post, outside of actual born Palestinian activists or commentators, I'm so baffled by the "the only way to solve/end this is must be the dismantling/dissolution of Israel as a state/nation" viewpoint as anything other than an overly emotional and fanciful ideological stance or argument.  I've seen a disturbing amount of posts/blogs/articles by Middle East experts or supposed geopolitical commentators calling for this and it seems so detached from reality or factual analysis.  People make comparisons to apartheid South Africa and the success there.  But the ANC was seeking equal rights and treatment and an end to state sponsored discrimination, not the destruction of South Africa the country (not to mention it was done on behalf of majority population against an empowered minority).  Same with other colonial rebellions, the majority population pushing back on an empowered minority, who also had a place of origin be it France, England, Portugal where the power sat, to depart to.

This would be a minority, demanding that their opposition who is both larger in number and infinitely more powerful, be disbanded and cease to exist.  Like instead of Quebec just pushing for independence, demanding that Canada be destroyed and dissolved so Quebec can stretch from sea to sea.  And of course, the only way that could ever happen was convincing the world to forcefully come and make Israel, militarily.  It sounds good in when screeching about the "settler colonialist project" but its just nonsensical, and like other things, just muddles and deflects from more realistic paths forward.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians".

Comparing the importance of defeating Germany and Japan in WWII to the current war in the Mideast makes no sense to me at all. Hamas has no massive, highly equipped army with tanks and advanced weaponry like Germany had that easily overran Europe, no battleships or submarines, no air force with thousands of planes. Hamas is a threat to Israel, not the entire world. A better analogy-but far from a great one as we did not share a border-would be Vietnam where we fought a guerilla war as well as a conventional one.

Hamas is severely weakened but will not lack for recruits among young males with a fierce hatred of Israel to rebuild their ranks. There will be new tunnels, new ways to attack. I wonder if there is widespread support for Hamas among Gazans, but Israel's campaign of suppression may shift Gazans towards accepting Hamas as their best bet to stop Israeli attacks.

nm-double post

Quote from: Shaka Shart on Today at 11:48:50 AMTheir enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas?

Lt. William Calley has joined the chat.

nm

Quote from: muwarrior69 on Today at 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Edit: nm.  This "fell asleep in my chair watching the History Channel, I ignore the lessons of any war between 1945 and now" stuff isn't worth engaging with.

Quote from: JWags85 on Today at 12:26:23 PMI had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

Israel has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.