MUScoop

This is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

That's what happens when America is a world laughingstock

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

Umm, was the 13 year civil war against the Assad regime not ugly enough for you?

Anyway, I'm sure you have an extremely nuanced take to share.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 09:40:48 AMUmm, was the 13 year civil war against the Assad regime not ugly enough for you?

Anyway, I'm sure you have an extremely nuanced take to share.

It was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:43:56 AMIt was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

You're such a weenie. Why even start the topic if you're just going to bow out less than 10 minutes later?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:43:56 AMIt was beyond ugly under Assad and continues to be ugly.  My take isn't nuanced at all, but would upset people here.  Have a nice day. 

Yes, yes, we all know you're totally fine with the mass genocide of people in the Middle East.

Move along.

Like college basketball, it is tough to follow a legend.

What does the S in S-Show stand for?

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 24, 2025, 03:41:45 PMWhat does the S in S-Show stand for?

Sand. There's LOTS of sand in Syria. All Muggsy was trying to say was that there is a big sandstorm in the weather forecast there.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 24, 2025, 03:50:38 PMSand. There's LOTS of sand in Syria. All Muggsy was trying to say was that there is a big sandstorm in the weather forecast there.

At least we aren't using the improper term of "haboob."

Quote from: The Sultan on July 24, 2025, 03:56:32 PMAt least we aren't using the improper term of "haboob."

That would have been quite uncouth for the youthful mind of OP

Quote from: The Sultan on July 24, 2025, 09:45:28 AMYou're such a weenie. Why even start the topic if you're just going to bow out less than 10 minutes later?

And here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 04:55:53 PMAnd here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

He only heard of Syria a couple years ago.

Quote from: RJax55 on July 24, 2025, 04:55:53 PMAnd here I thought he would address the complex questions and history that drive the ethnic, religious, and political divide in Syria. Not to mention, speak to the actions of the outside actors who use the instability as an opportunity to grab power, fight a proxy war, and/or exhibit influence in a 21st century version of a great power game.

There's a reason I hide my Marquette degree in my basement.

To be fair, he doesn't use google and just lives off of what his friends send him

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

You cannot be Syri-ous!

Seeing a lot of Damascus in politics currently.

Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2025, 05:47:58 PMSeeing a lot of Damascus in politics currently.

Lotta da ICE agents wearing Damascus.

Well we know Wisconsinites are firmly backing the Kurds

That is Assad rip off of my bad pun.

Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2025, 05:53:08 PMThat is Assad rip off of my bad pun.

It was the Middleast I could do.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

I think this is Aleppo to conclusions

Quote from: MU82 on July 24, 2025, 06:00:22 PMIt was the Middleast I could do.

Istanbullshyte. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 24, 2025, 09:49:14 AMYes, yes, we all know you're totally fine with the mass genocide of people in the Middle East.

Move along.

All of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Probably because I don't use google

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Who has placed any blame here with Syria?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Disregard what Sultan said, I didn't look but it's 100% Israel's fault

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point. So why do you continue to post your delusions and fantasies here? And it's super interesting not really you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, and this is relevant...how? which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality this is rich, coming from someone who, in one insane post, suggested that A) the US send an assassination team to take out Putin and that B) you "assured" us that the Russians would surrender immediately and C) people who could not see this had their "heads up their asses" You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, oh really? and the issues within that religion, like some Christians have for centuries that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn. Not true. You're living in a la-la-land you're the mayor Muggsy! and cannot handle immutable truths. And on whose authority do you declare what those are? 

*literally anything bad happening anywhere else in the world* Muggsy:"how strange you condemn Israel but not this"

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government. The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

So you agree Israel is committing a genocide? Interesting

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 24, 2025, 10:20:11 PM*literally anything bad happening anywhere else in the world* Muggsy:"how strange you condemn Israel but not this"

He's awfully quiet on the gestapo tactics of his own country

My post was on Syria and of course all of you attack Israel.   Shocker. 

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 25, 2025, 06:59:14 AMSo you agree Israel is committing a genocide? Interesting

No, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:09:45 AMNo, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/mass-starvation-looms-gaza-european-leaders-hold-emergency/story?id=124048464

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 06:25:07 PMAll of you as usual have missed the point.  And it's super interesting you keep talking about a "mass genocide" commited by Israel with no mention, ever, of places like South Sudan, which  has been a horrific example of pure ethnic cleansing from an Arab government.  The vast majority of you refuse to deal with reality.  You will never under any circumstances criticize asshead Islamic governments, and the issues within that religion, that has led to mass chaos, brainwashing, and the subjugation of their own people.  You will blame Israel and the United States at every turn.  You're living in a la-la-land and cannot handle immutable truths. 

Israel is a genocidal state that no longer deserves to exist in it's current iteration.

Children are being starved to death because Israel refuses to allow aid in. 

Two million people have four places in the entire zone to pick up food.

And when they do, they're gunned down by the IDF.

All of this is straight from the Nazi playbook.

Ghettoize a population, steal/destroy their possessions, and then starve and murder them.

"Never again" shouldn't be a rallying cry only for Jewish people.

Defending what is happening in Gaza puts you firmly on the wrong side of history.

If you need help coming back to the right side, I'd be happy to place the genocide on full display for you in DMs.  I'd put the pictures here, but they're extremely graphic. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:09:45 AMNo, don't.  It appears people don't know what a genocide is. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

UN
Amnesty International
Doctors without Borders

Just because the US and Israel don't believe it, does not mean it is not widely considered a genocide.

Open your eyes, child.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 25, 2025, 07:08:04 AMMy post was on Syria and of course all of you attack Israel.   Shocker. 

Mostly because it exposes what an obvious hypocrite you are.

It's wild how some of you complain about people being snatched off the street by unidentified government agents wearing masks, but you're silent when that kind of thing happens all the time in Russia and North Korea.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 25, 2025, 09:38:59 AMIt's wild how some of you complain about people being snatched off the street by unidentified government agents wearing masks, but you're silent when that kind of thing happens all the time in Russia and North Korea.

Waiting for Ghislaine to fall off the balcony of a tall building.

1/4 of all of the people who have died of starvation in Gaza in the last 22 months have died in the last three days.

Quote from: tower912 on July 25, 2025, 09:46:32 AMWaiting for Ghislaine to fall off the balcony of a tall building.

Nah. She'll be deported to El Salvador any day now.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 25, 2025, 10:25:03 AM1/4 of all of the people who have died of starvation in Gaza in the last 22 months have died in the last three days.

But will you denounce Hamas?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 25, 2025, 07:37:42 AMIsrael is a genocidal state that no longer deserves to exist in it's current iteration.

Children are being starved to death because Israel refuses to allow aid in. 

Two million people have four places in the entire zone to pick up food.

And when they do, they're gunned down by the IDF.

All of this is straight from the Nazi playbook.

Ghettoize a population, steal/destroy their possessions, and then starve and murder them.

"Never again" shouldn't be a rallying cry only for Jewish people.

Defending what is happening in Gaza puts you firmly on the wrong side of history.

If you need help coming back to the right side, I'd be happy to place the genocide on full display for you in DMs.  I'd put the pictures here, but they're extremely graphic. 

This is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

How come you accept the death of innocent civilians on one side, but not the other?
Are some civilian lives more worthy than others?

Quote from: Pakuni on July 26, 2025, 08:01:22 AMHow come you accept the death of innocent civilians on one side, but not the other?
Are some civilian lives more worthy than others?

I'm not accepting anything.  This is in response to labeling Israel a genocidal state.  Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem.  If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 08:14:01 AMI'm not accepting anything. You just did! you accepted it as a consequence of war. Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem. So Egypt is responsible by not helping? It would be great if they did, but this is just another example of deflection, something that you are a master of. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. But they didn't. Feeding the Gazans is now the victor's responsibility. 

Maybe the entire Arab world should stop using the Palestinians as pawns and allow some refugees to move there?  Maybe Egypt shouldn't close their border to Gazans and we should help?  It's also interesting that  1 million or so Palestinians work in Israel when it's an "apartheid state".  It's even more interesting that if Israel were to leave that land entirely, that tiny speck of land would turn into another hell hole, just like 4/5 of all Muslim majority states.  If Israel were to lay down their arms, WTF do you think would happen?  If Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, etc, etc, laid down there arms do you think Israel would go Rambo on all civilians? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 09:20:43 AMMaybe the entire Arab world should stop using the Palestinians as pawns and allow some refugees to move there?  Maybe Egypt shouldn't close their border to Gazans and we should help?  It's also interesting that  1 million or so Palestinians work in Israel when it's an "apartheid state".  It's even more interesting that if Israel were to leave that land entirely, that tiny speck of land would turn into another hell hole, just like 4/5 of all Muslim majority states.  If Israel were to lay down their arms, WTF do you think would happen?  If Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, etc, etc, laid down there arms do you think Israel would go Rambo on all civilians? 

Why should it be responsibility of the Arab states and not the one with control over the territory? Why should Palestinians have to move away from their home?

Face it, you've bought into the propaganda and are excusing Israel for atrocities that you would be all up in arms with otherwise.

You're just a person not to be taken seriously.

Maybe it's more interesting that you continue to demonstrate your inability to discuss anything rationally here. Instead, you lecture on what to you are "immutable truths" and "reality". We are supposed to listen and marvel at your brilliant takes.

However, I must congratulate you for showing a few signs of empathy for humans. Since you absolutely refuse to walk back old posts, I will continue to use them. Your acknowledgement of starving people (Muslims no less!) is a huge improvement over your refusal a few years ago to acknowledge the tragedy of the woman who a gator chomped in half. Your only concern was that you wanted a "thorough investigation" as to why the gator was put down. And you once posted that moose had the right to kill people "without mercy". So good for you Muggsy! And not once have you have mentioned the magnificent animals that have died in Gaza due to the bombing. I'm very proud of you.

 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 08:14:01 AMI'm not accepting anything.  This is in response to labeling Israel a genocidal state.  Getting Gazans the food and aid they need has obviously been a major problem.  The fact that Egypt won't help at all is also a problem.  If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered months and months ago, this wouldn't be a crisis. 

If you believe that intentional civilian casualties are just a part of war, then so is Oct. 7.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

Civilian deaths by starvation are not a part of any war.  84,000+ PEOPLE have died as a result of the war in Gaza.  Including aid workers, journalists, and children.  These are war crimes.  Period.  The Gaza strip has been one giant concentration camp for years.  The civilians there have no right of movement.  They can't come and go as they please.  They've been thoroughly rounded up and CONCENTRATED.

https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/report-israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/the-double-genocide-in-gaza-by-dr-gregory-stanton

You won't even click those links.  You have no interest in seeking out any information that doesn't conform to your preconceived notion of right and wrong.  Which is EXTREMELY juvenile.  These are PEOPLE.  Have you no empathy for them?  What is their crime?  Existence?  Do they not matter to you because they're Muslims?  Just say that if it's what you truly think.

The holocaust didn't happen in a week or a month.  It took years, and the slow creep of wanton death numbed the people as to what was happening.  Which is EXACTLY what is happening right now in Gaza.  Many people in Israel don't see Palestinians as humans, and that is exactly what the government wants.  Dehumanization and extermination.  Destruction of all infrastructure, health care, education, and humanitarian zones... Israel can't just say everything is Hamas and fire away without criticism.

Why do you say what is happening in Sudan is a genocide, yet deny there is one in Gaza?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2025, 10:29:17 AMYou have no interest in seeking out any information that doesn't conform to your preconceived notion of right and wrong.  Which is EXTREMELY juvenile.  These are PEOPLE.  Have you no empathy for them?  What is their crime?  Existence?  Do they not matter to you because they're Muslims?  Just say that if it's what you truly think.

I think there is just a HINT of empathy implied in Muggsy's post, but other than that-spot on.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 07:33:26 AMThis is fking ridiculous.  They were attacked and unfortunately innocent civilians die in war.  If this is a "genocidal state", how come the death count isn't 500 thousand?  When we bombed Mosul was that genocide?  Those that keep hammering this inane narrative are directly responsible for further antisemitism and anti-israel garbage. 

I was raised Jewish, and my brother, an Orthodox Jew, lives in Israel. I firmly believe Israel has a right to exist, to thrive and to defend itself. I even reluctantly justified innocent Palestinian civilians dying in Israel's initial reaction to Oct. 7: Hamas had declared war, and did so in an especially evil way, so Israel had to defend itself by just about any means.

It's nearly two years later, and the war, for all intents and purposes, has been over for a long time. It's shameful that Israel's leaders are purposefully starving and casually killing innocent people, and I agree with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Israelis who believe Bibi wants to keep the "war" (as it is) going to protect his own interests.

So am I antisemitic and anti-Israel?

Probably according to Muggs. But he's also the dude who thought it would be easy to just take Iran's oil. Simple man with simple thoughts.

Anyway this is why he was kicked off Dodds' board. For as low a signal-to-noise ratio they have, even he's an outlier.

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 11:04:12 AMI was raised Jewish, and my brother, an Orthodox Jew, lives in Israel. I firmly believe Israel has a right to exist, to thrive and to defend itself. I even reluctantly justified innocent Palestinian civilians dying in Israel's initial reaction to Oct. 7: Hamas had declared war, and did so in an especially evil way, so Israel had to defend itself by just about any means.

It's nearly two years later, and the war, for all intents and purposes, has been over for a long time. It's shameful that Israel's leaders are purposefully starving and casually killing innocent people, and I agree with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Israelis who believe Bibi wants to keep the "war" (as it is) going to protect his own interests.

So am I antisemitic and anti-Israel?

Hamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

It's common knowledge that intercepting missiles is achieved by firing machine guns into thousands of starving people. You're spot on

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

I think Israel's leadership is committing war crimes. And just plain crimes, too. And is lacking in morals, ethics and decency. As a supporter of all the things I already mentioned, it makes me ill. It's also counterproductive to Israel's cause.

You are focused on semantics. Focus on what people are actually saying and/or doing before lobbing accusations. We all know what Bibi is saying and doing, and what his most powerful supporters in America are saying and doing, too. It's repulsive.

And to answer my own question - one you weaseled out of answering - I'm quite certain I'm neither antisemitic nor anti-Israel.

https://nyti.ms/3J2Ime4

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 01:33:20 PMI think Israel's leadership is committing war crimes. And just plain crimes, too. And is lacking in morals, ethics and decency. As a supporter of all the things I already mentioned, it makes me ill. It's also counterproductive to Israel's cause.

You are focused on semantics. Focus on what people are actually saying and/or doing before lobbing accusations. We all know what Bibi is saying and doing, and what his most powerful supporters in America are saying and doing, too. It's repulsive.

And to answer my own question - one you weaseled out of answering - I'm quite certain I'm neither antisemitic nor anti-Israel.

You weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas.   

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

If starving civilians is an asset for Hamas, then why is Israel starving civilians?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 02:39:29 PMYou weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Its probably mostly because our tax dollars aren't going to those groups.

Also, from what I would assume, you'd do a genocide slowly and quietly or else face severe wrath from the globe - which is exactly what Israel is doing.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 02:39:29 PMYou weaseled out of my question and it's not semantics.  I also don't trust a single word the UN says about Israel.  Did we commit war crimes is Mosul?  Has Hamas committed war crimes?  Hezbollah?  Iran?  Why is no one protesting their barbarism? Israel cannot exist sise by side with a Hamas ruled Gaza.  There are some in the Israeli government and IDF that have done inexcusable things.  But Israel's goal is not fking genocide.  If it was, Gaza would beva parking lot with about 500K dead Palestinians.   And you know this full well.   

Open your eyes and, if you have the capability, use common sense.

Israelis have lost faith in their leadership, including the war criminal in charge.

Fthe last two weeks, the State Department's office of Israeli Palestinian Affairs has had no director, because the person in that job was fired along with more than 1,300 other employees on July 11.

Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2025, 05:25:28 PMOpen your eyes and, if you have the capability, use common sense.

Israelis have lost faith in their leadership, including the war criminal in charge.

With all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

And none of that changes the facts.

Netanyahu is a criminal in his own country (that's democracy for you) and a war criminal

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Proportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 08:54:41 AMProportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

Burmese pythons are a nuisance in Florida but Florida is a garbage state

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 08:54:41 AMProportionally vs 9/11 Israel has killed about 6M Palestinians then. Thats about the estimated amount of Jews killed in the holocaust.

If you're so upset about this college basketball board not talking about the Burmese, why haven't you started a topic on it?

That's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Well, Netanyahu is a war criminal.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 08:48:52 AMWith all due respect, open your eyes.  This is war, and unfortunately during war innocent civilians die and mistakes are made.  In every conflict which led to war have all of these countries been genocidal states led by war criminals?  Why are you and and seemingmly 90% of the world obsessed with innocent Palestinians vs innocent South Sudanese?  Or Burmese?  Or Japanese during WW2?  Or Ukrainians?  Or Russians?  Or Syrians?  Or Germans we bombed at Dresden? Or Rwandans or any civilians on the entire continent of Africa?  If we're going to compare the ratio of innocent people dead vs terrorists l, it's probably 1 to 1 in Gaza.  That's terrible and a consequence of war, but compared to the other examples I've provided, the ratio is way higher in every other Western war/conflict.

Proportially the Oct 7th Hamas attacks was the equivalent of 45,000 civilians slaughtered on 9/11/01.  Imagine if New Jersey, was a terrorist state like Gaza and committed those atrocities, and took 1000 hostages.  WTF do you think we would do?  Have the UN access our military strikes?  We killed like 10,000+ innocent civilians in Mosul alone.  The fact of the matter is Israel is surrounded by enemies that don't play by the rules.  They still have hostages that are alive BTW.  We should all open our eyes and firmly understand that Islamic terrorism, and their disgusting ideological hatred isn't going anywhere.    Our strategy of placating them has been a disaster. 

Ridiculous post filled with false equivalences, strawman arguments and outright fallacies. The death and starvation going on now in Gaza is 100% unnecessary; it is a choice being made by corrupt Israeli leaders.

I suggest you read the just-published New York Times Magazine article headlined: SECRET MEETINGS, ALTERED RECORDS, IGNORED WARNINGS: HOW ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER PROLONGED THE WAR IN GAZA TO STAY IN POWER

It's behind a paywall, so I won't cut-and-paste the whole thing, but here are the first several paragraphs showing how Netanyahu has kept the war going for a year and a half longer than necessary. Why? For one reason only: To protect his own self-interests.

Six months into the war in the Gaza Strip, Benjamin Netanyahu was preparing to bring it to a halt. Negotiations were underway for an extended cease-fire with Hamas, and he was ready to agree to a compromise. He had dispatched an envoy to convey Israel's new position to the Egyptian mediators. Now, at a meeting at the Ministry of Defense in Tel Aviv, he needed to get his cabinet onboard. He had kept the plan off the meeting's written agenda. The idea was to reveal it suddenly, preventing resistant ministers from coordinating their response.

It was April 2024, long before Netanyahu mounted his political comeback. The proposal on the table would have paused the Gaza war for at least six weeks. It would have created a window for negotiations with Hamas over a permanent truce. More than 30 hostages captured by Hamas at the start of the war would have been released within weeks. Still more would have been freed if the truce was extended. And the devastation of Gaza, where roughly two million people were trying to survive daily attacks, would have come to a halt.

Ending the war would then have raised the chances of a landmark peace deal with Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's most powerful country. For months, the Saudi leadership had secretly signaled its willingness to accelerate peace talks with Israel — as long as the war in Gaza stopped. The normalization of ties between the Saudi and Israeli governments, an achievement that had eluded every Israeli leader since the state's founding in 1948, would have secured Israel's status in the region as well as Netanyahu's long-term legacy.

But for Netanyahu, a truce also came with personal risk. As prime minister, he led a fragile coalition that depended on the support of far-right ministers who wanted to occupy Gaza, not withdraw from it. They sought a long war that would ultimately enable Israel to re-establish Jewish settlements in Gaza. If a cease-fire came too soon, these ministers might decide to collapse the ruling coalition. That would prompt early elections that polls showed Netanyahu would lose. Out of office, Netanyahu was vulnerable. Since 2020, he had been standing trial for corruption; the charges, which he denied, mostly related to granting favors to businessmen in exchange for gifts and favorable media coverage. Shorn of power, Netanyahu would lose the ability to force out the attorney general who oversaw his prosecution — as indeed his government would later attempt to do.

As the cabinet discussed other matters, an aide hurried into the meeting room with a document summarizing Israel's new negotiating position, quietly placing it in front of Netanyahu. He gave it one last read, ticking off various points with his pen. The route to a truce presented real danger, but he seemed ready to move ahead.

Then Bezalel Smotrich, his finance minister, interrupted the proceedings. As a young activist in 2005, Smotrich was detained for weeks — though never charged — on suspicion of plotting to blow up vehicles on a major highway in order to slow the dismantling of Israeli settlements in Gaza. Along with Itamar Ben-Gvir, the far-right national-security minister, Smotrich was now one of the strongest advocates in the cabinet for re-establishing those settlements. He had recently called for most of Gaza's Palestinian population to leave. Now, at the cabinet meeting, Smotrich declared that he had heard rumors of a plan for a deal. The details disturbed him. "I want you to know that if a surrender agreement like this is brought forward, you no longer have a government," Smotrich said. "The government is finished."

It was 5:44 p.m., according to minutes of the meeting. At that moment, the prime minister was forced to choose between the chance of a truce and his political survival — and Netanyahu opted for survival. There was no cease-fire plan, he promised Smotrich. "No, no, there's no such thing," he said. And as the cabinet discussion moved on, Netanyahu quietly leaned over to his security advisers and whispered what must have by then become obvious to them: "Don't present the plan."

+++

Sorry Muggs, but Bibi knew what the right thing to do was; he simply chose not to do it. Why keep defending a war criminal whom even most Israelis no longer want to lead their country?

Not only has he orchestrated the preventable deaths and starvation of innocent people, and not only did he personally prevent Israeli hostages from being returned to their families, but he also scuttled possible lasting peace between his country and Saudi Arabia. What a leader!

These were choices he made not to make Israel safer but to keep himself in power.

What began as a just war of self-defense (one that had support of pretty much every country in the world that mattered) has evolved into what you would call a "Sh!t-Show" (one that has been condemned by most of the free world).

It's performance theater by a war criminal just to protect himself.

Millions of Israelis want to be done with him. Are they antisemitic and anti-Israel, too?

Now, please, tell me how many innocents died in Gettysburg as justification for Bibi starving and murdering human beings for no reason.

Muggs-

Tactical question for you.

Would you utilize the giant space lasers Israel has against Iran and Hamas or would you prefer they continue to use them to start wildfires across the globe?

I'll hang up and listen.  Thanks

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Fully down the propaganda hole.  What a disgraceful Marquette grad.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 27, 2025, 09:23:33 AMFully down the propaganda hole.  What a disgraceful Marquette grad.

We know you like Hamas. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:25:18 AMWe know you like Hamas. 

I don't but I understand why they exist.  Rebel groups have existed since the dawn of time in an attempt to throw off the shackles of their oppressors.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:25:18 AMWe know you like Hamas. 

You have your head in the sand and this board is spending too much time dealing with your ignorance.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 27, 2025, 09:03:07 AMThat's complete nonsense.  And Iran/Hamas is to blame for 95% of this. 

I'm illustrating a point regarding Burma and other places.  I don't care any more about innocent Palestinians being killed or starved, than I do innocent people all over the world that are suffering the same predicament.  You, and others here, believe Netanyahu is a combination of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and that Israel as a whole is worse than actual genocidal states.

Can you define to me how one discerns who is to blame, and what defines the difference between state sponsored terrorism of proxy groups, support of freedom fighters, or supporting "intelligence operations" that recruit and fund civilians to commit acts of war?

Proportionality to population size is a criminally insane concept when it comes to human death. That's it. That's the post.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 27, 2025, 10:11:48 AMYou have your head in the sand and this board is spending too much time dealing with your ignorance.

Muggs doesn't think we should hold western-style liberal societies to a higher standard when judging how they use violence. It's a tremendous self own he'll never wrap his head around.

To be fair to muggs, he likely would have seen the Warsaw ghetto uprising as a terrorist attack

Substitute "Muggsy's" for the word "our" in my second signature to get to the heart of the problem. I'm thinking about changing it to that.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 27, 2025, 09:28:20 AMI don't but I understand why they exist.  Rebel groups have existed since the dawn of time in an attempt to throw off the shackles of their oppressors.

I'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 04:38:28 PMI'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

Agree. I would add that the belief (probably Muggsy's) that severely reducing the number of Hamas fighters means that Hamas will no longer be a threat is naive. No doubt the young male survivors of this war are already imbued with a visceral hatred of Israelis. Hamas will rebuild. Not if. When. 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 27, 2025, 05:24:53 PMAgree. I would add that the belief (probably Muggsy's) that severely reducing the number of Hamas fighters means that Hamas will no longer be a threat is naive. No doubt the young male survivors of this war are already imbued with a visceral hatred of Israelis. Hamas will rebuild. Not if. When. 

Yup.
Contrary to the advice they're getting from one prominent Scooper, the Israelis are mistaken if they think they can kill their way to a peaceful existence.
Of course, we probably shouldn't pretend that's the goal here.

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 09:22:14 AMI suggest you read the just-published New York Times Magazine article headlined: SECRET MEETINGS, ALTERED RECORDS, IGNORED WARNINGS: HOW ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER PROLONGED THE WAR IN GAZA TO STAY IN POWER

Professor Timothy Snyder explains it as "the classic dictatorial position: He needs to die in bed holding all executive power to stay out of prison. This means that he will do whatever he can to gain power, and once in power will do all that he can to never let it go. This is a basic incentive structure which underlies everything else. It is entirely inconsistent with democracy."

Of course, he was not referring to Bibi here.

Good luck, America.

Muggsy where is your dental practice

https://bsky.app/profile/marisakabas.bsky.social/post/3luyikkksjc2o

Quote from: Shaka Shart on July 27, 2025, 07:42:53 PMMuggsy where is your dental practice

I'm not a dentist. 

Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2025, 04:38:28 PMI'd say Hamas are more terrorists than "rebels," and I'd say that what they did on Oct. 7 was more than "attempt to throw off the shackles."

They can be both.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 28, 2025, 02:05:09 PMhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

Too bad Netanyahu will never face a day in jail.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 28, 2025, 02:05:09 PMhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups

All the Israeli Jews in those organizations obviously are antisemitic and anti-Israel.

"send only bombs to gaza, not food"

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 26, 2025, 12:21:15 PMHamas has fired missiles at food trucks.  Israel isn't blameless, and there are assheads in tbeir govt., but starving Palestinians is an asset for Hamas. 

Do you think Israel is "a genocidal state"?

Here you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

Muggsy thinks she deserved it.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

But does he condemn hamas?

(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgraphics.axios.com%2Fhermesv2%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who%2Ffallbacks%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who-fallback.png&t=1753891347&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c94-c00722012100&sig=BqwyIgACY8ztGU.fXsIzNg--~D)

Also, only 29% of Americans polled approve of Netanyahu's handling of the situation.

Quote from: MU82 on July 30, 2025, 11:08:00 AM(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgraphics.axios.com%2Fhermesv2%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who%2Ffallbacks%2F2025-07-29-1342-us-adults-who-fallback.png&t=1753891347&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c94-c00722012100&sig=BqwyIgACY8ztGU.fXsIzNg--~D)

Also, only 29% of Americans polled approve of Netanyahu's handling of the situation.

Only 29% of America can comprehend five point plans

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

This isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2025, 12:17:25 PMThis isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

I didn't know

Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2025, 12:17:25 PMThis isn't at all a justification for anything Israel or IDF, but Tony Aguilar (wonder if his last name was misspelled on purpose so not to easily tie it to past media) has been outed as a liar and disgruntled contractor for months before he went on his current media tour.  He was a persona non grata in ex-Special Forces circles before any of this and he got fired from GHF for misconduct and violent behavior, not that he left voluntarily.  All his sensationalist reporting that has got him camera time and shine has been completely devoid of evidence or substantiation.

Israel is doing reprehensible stuff in this whole conflict, but flat out lies from biased unreliable sources and reports from NGO who were critical of Israel as an entity long before 10/7 aren't the slam dunk evidence its being reported as, and ultimately only harms innocent Palestinians and the actual truth of what they are facing. Just like the retraction the NYT just had to do about pictures and descriptions they were using about certain starving civilians.

And not to both sides it, but I feel the same about any BS overuse of antisemitism labels for people and actions or half truth stories used to accuse others of anti-Israeli/Jewish bias.

Maybe. The accusations that he was a disgruntled employee seem to come from the GHF itself, which he criticized for the unsafe way they were dealing with the crisis. GHF has been WIDELY criticized for their shitty work.

And this is far from the first time there have been reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF at food distribution points, or that Israel is systematically starving them.

I don't have any idea if he was "persona non grata in ex-Special Forces", but feels a bit like an effort to shoot the messenger.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 02:05:42 PMI didn't know
Maybe. The accusations that he was a disgruntled employee seem to come from the GHF itself, which he criticized for the unsafe way they were dealing with the crisis. GHF has been WIDELY criticized for their shitty work.

And this is far from the first time there have been reports of Palestinians being shot by the IDF at food distribution points, or that Israel is systematically starving them.

I don't have any idea if he was "persona non grata in ex-Special Forces", but feels a bit like an effort to shoot the messenger.

There is shades of grey to all of this, but it's not like he was a vocal leader in this situation leading up to this. But all of a sudden his military credentials and selfless heroism in speaking up about the GHF are touted every time he's come up on numerous networks and made very big and aggressive claims.  So people who knew him before are like "wait a second, this dude is a problematic person and a liar suddenly now being venerated in media circles".  In a lot of these situations, it's pretty even.  Whether volunteers or journalists or whatnot, there is a smattering of support and credential bashing on either side when claims are made about the conflict.  I've seen NOTHING positive about Aguilar's background over the last month (he started getting media buzz about his "experiences" in early July), and only just "oh my god a Green Beret who worked for GHF is saying this".

Plenty of people may say "oh it doesn't matter, Israel is still being evil".  But if the reality is Israel has created near impossible situations for success in aid distribution, GHF has been horrible as the moderator of such aid, and Israel has been trigger happy in responding to disturbances or chaotic crowd around aid sites...that's a very real problem that should be highlighted, addressed, and called to account.

Saying stuff like "I saw the IDF machine gunning toddlers in the head and re-aligning their rifle sights using old women sifting through flour" with zero evidence, substantiation, and solely on the word of spurious sources...it gives anyone the opportunity to dismiss all of the above as exaggeration or fabrication and further widen the chasm of hysterical people screaming at each other in the void

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 30, 2025, 08:56:58 AMHere you go Muggsy. This isn't a one-off, this is systemic genocide.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/94/60/ORJgrqfu_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ORJgrqfu)

Aguilar has been completely discredited.  This is textbook propaganda/b-crap. 

Muggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 04:45:16 PMMuggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Not one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

We don't know that.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 05:10:25 PMWe don't know that.

Either way, they got what they deserved.  None of them probably appreciated manatees

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 05:29:18 PMEither way, they got what they deserved.  None of them probably appreciated manatees

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Their grandparents shouldn't have voted for Hamas.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 04:45:16 PMMuggs probably thinks these names were made up.

https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1950632568858042824

At least they weren't manatees right?

Manatees are incapable of war.  They shouldn't be part of this discussion. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 30, 2025, 06:22:43 PMManatees are incapable of war.  They shouldn't be part of this discussion. 

The point completely flew over your head.

Quote from: The Sultan on July 30, 2025, 06:27:35 PMThe point completely flew over your head.

Like manatees when I run over them with my boat

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 06:30:05 PMLike manatees when I run over them with my boat

If you hit them directly enough it saves you the trouble of having to filet them

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 30, 2025, 04:53:07 PMNot one of those kids condemned Hamas on Scoop

Very concerning. Especially considering how many drop by for their Anders Carlson update.

Ban them.

Maybe if you had a 5 point plan you'd be a 4.5 in pickleball by now

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 30, 2025, 04:40:53 PMAguilar has been completely discredited.  This is textbook propaganda/b-crap. 

Children as still dead trying to stop from starving to death from IDF bullets.

Have you no sense of humanity?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 06:13:35 AMChildren as still dead trying to stop from starving to death from IDF bullets.

Have you no sense of humanity?

Yes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

That's such a good deflection.  I've changed my mind with that argument.  Netanyahu should get a Nobel Peace Prize because Scoop isn't getting outraged about Africa

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.

Initially yes. But not anymore. Israel went past proportionate response a long time ago.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMI also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

If someone doesn't care about ALL injustice, they can't really care about SPECIFIC injustice? That's just silly and dumb deflection.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 07:42:52 AMThat's such a good deflection.  I've changed my mind with that argument.  Netanyahu should get a Nobel Peace Prize because Scoop isn't getting outraged about Africa

It's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

You've changed my mind.  What's happening in Gaza is fine because Sultan isn't outraged about African kids starving.  This is why we should usurp the Serengeti

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

Hamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 07:59:54 AMYou've changed my mind.  What's happening in Gaza is fine because Sultan isn't outraged about African kids starving.  This is why we should usurp the Serengeti

That's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered, and actual mass genocide, which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:21:36 AMThat's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered and actual mass genocide which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Yes, you've changed my mind.  The lack of outrage over the death of children across the world has changed my view on the genocide in Gaza

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:21:36 AMThat's not my point at all, and leave our tremendous animals out of this.  I was accused of not having any sense of humanity because of Gaza which is false.  I'm simply asking why there is zero outrage about African children being slaughtered, and actual mass genocide, which has taken place there for decades?  Why have there been like 5000 posts from all of you about Netanyahu and how horrible Israel is, after they were attacked, and literally ZERO about similar tragedies throughout the world?  Why no protests?  We never get answers to these questions from those obsessed with Israel/Gaza.  Ever.  Do you realize how many tiny children have been murdered or starved to death all over the world?  We should seize the oil fields to prevent more deaths and eliminate Islamic terrorism all over the freaking world. 

Again, you are being illogical. Just because someone isn't outraged about all injustice doesn't mean they can't be outraged over specific cases of injustice.

But, as Americans, the injustice happening in Gaza that is being caused by one of our supposed allies, is going to be front and center.

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 31, 2025, 08:15:16 AMHamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

The IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation. 

I'm tired of manatees being endangered getting so much attention from the public and conservationists. Do you know how many thousands of species of animals are endangered? Literally thousands of species of insects alone! Why don't people publically outcry about every single endangered species? We never get an answer from these people! Until people start posting about every single endangered species, no one is allowed to post about manatees being endangered.

These speciests make me sick

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:36:06 AMThe IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzId6DGg9YcwAWuYxwTIBJLyDJ6bHTi0lV1w&s)

Quote from: The Sultan on July 31, 2025, 08:30:59 AMAgain, you are being illogical. Just because someone isn't outraged about all injustice doesn't mean they can't be outraged over specific cases of injustice.

But, as Americans, the injustice happening in Gaza that is being caused by one of our supposed allies, is going to be front and center.

No, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?   How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 27, 2025, 01:12:03 PMMuggs doesn't think we should hold western-style liberal societies to a higher standard when judging how they use violence. It's a tremendous self own he'll never wrap his head around.

Don't make me tap the sign

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

Is the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:43:29 AMNo, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?  How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

To be fair, we're accelerating the number of American kids that will needlessly die with current domestic policy, so it'll even out. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:49:54 AMIs the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

We've given money hand over fist to the entire middle east. If the Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:55:56 AMWe've given money hand over fist to the entire middle east. If tbe entire Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate?

Why would they leave, and why would they do that.

They can defend themselves without the help of the United States.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:56:56 AMWhy would they leave, and why would they do that.

They can defend themselves without the help of the United States.

So we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:02:02 AMSo we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

Depends if they allow hotels and golf courses to be built cheaply

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:43:29 AMNo, wrong.  And again you and others refuse to answer questions that are very applicable to Gaza.  The fact that Israel is an ally is irrelevant to the "caring about humanity" narrative .  We and many of our allies have done way worse things than Israel and well after WW2.  War is ugly, it's not humanitarian.  That doesn't mean Netanyahu and Israel haven't done some fked up things.  The obsession over Israel has nothing to do with them being an ally.  Was our operation in Mosul executed without innocent people and children dying?   How many kids have died from US drone strikes over the past 10 years?

No I am correct. And either you don't have the ability to see that, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

Regardless, your continued deflections on this topic pretty much shows a lot about your priorities really.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:02:02 AMSo we shouldn't give them a dime.  Got it.  Should we give any foreign aid to any countries?

We should not give aid to countries committing a genocide.  Correct.

See how easy that is.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 09:05:05 AMWe should not give aid to countries committing a genocide.  Correct.

See how easy that is.

LOL. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:53:40 AMIt's not a deflection, these are facts.  How many kids under 5 have been massacred or starved to death all over  Africa ?  And I'm talking yearly?  Do you care?  Do any of you care?  Are you racists?  Where are the protests?  Where is the outrage?  This is one of many reasons why we should usurp the oil fields.

Hell, man ... you are outraged when Marquette doesn't play well. What about African kids dying? Are you a racist?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 31, 2025, 08:49:54 AMIs the US giving away billions of dollars and supplying weapons to the country starving those children in Sudan?  Could that conflict be stopped with a couple of phone calls from the US government?  The outrage at the genocide Gaza strip is because of the complicity of the US Government in it.

And even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2025, 09:18:15 AMAnd even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

Unfortunately, they've descended deep into fascism in Israel.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2025, 09:18:15 AMAnd even a little more abstractly, I feel like we have skin in the game of seeing a liberal society succeed in the middle east.  But that only remains important so long as "liberal society" is shorthand for a lot of shared values that are worth propogating - including holding yourself to a higher human rights standard in the means by which you defeat your enemies.

But we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

It's because we say "god bless the troops"

Usurping oil fields. Like his plan to assassinate Putin and his "assurance" that the Russians would immediately surrender, the US should do this ASAP. We will meet no resistance.

Unilaterally declaring what reality and immutable facts are. Furiously lecturing us on his obsessions on a such a wide range of subjects while we remain unable to grasp the inherent truths Muggsy keeps gifting us. His crown jewel is his 5-point plan for world peace, even though he has not revealed it to us in its entirety.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

If you think that's equally as bad as the tactics being used in Sudan, why are you so passionate about defending it?

At least Israel is being peaceful and respectful about the 2.3M Palestinians in the West Bank

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 09:20:50 AMBut we can still slaughter people all over the place with drone strikes because of our values.  Got it.

Muggsy going from full-scale invasion of Iran to anti-war zealot is not the plot twist I expected here.

Quote from: jesmu84 on July 31, 2025, 08:15:16 AMHamas is shooting Palestinian children in gaza?

Absolutely.  Again, I'm not blanket justifying IDF/Israeli action or policy and my argument is different than Muggsy, but Hamas ABSOLUTELY is and has been killing Palestinian civilians, children included.  Not saying that any civilian shooting attributed to the IDF was actually Hamas, but shooting at and killing Palestinians to keep control, prevent movement or push a narrative is absolutely something that has been happening for a LONG time.

No matter what you think of Israel or their actions, good bad or otherwise, Hamas has never been and will never be good, moral, or protective leaders of their own people without even taking their aggression towards Israel into account. Their end goal is power and an eradication of Israel, not an uplifting and salvation of Palestinians.

Quote from: JWags85 on July 31, 2025, 10:08:49 AMAbsolutely.  Again, I'm not blanket justifying IDF/Israeli action or policy and my argument is different than Muggsy, but Hamas ABSOLUTELY is and has been killing Palestinian civilians, children included.  Not saying that any civilian shooting attributed to the IDF was actually Hamas, but shooting at and killing Palestinians to keep control, prevent movement or push a narrative is absolutely something that has been happening for a LONG time.

No matter what you think of Israel or their actions, good bad or otherwise, Hamas has never been and will never be good, moral, or protective leaders of their own people without even taking their aggression towards Israel into account. Their end goal is power and an eradication of Israel, not an uplifting and salvation of Palestinians.

I don't think many critics of Israel here - or in the West in general - argue that Hamas is good, moral or protective leaders of their people. 

"Hamas is bad, too" is little more than a deflection of the legitimate denunciation of Israel's actions here. Especially since we ought to be holding Israel to a higher standard than we would a terrorist organization.

Is Muggsy just doing a bit, like Herm used to?

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 07:39:41 AMYes. It's a terrible situation.  But Hamas is primarily responsible for this tragedy.  I also don't diffentiate between innocent children dying in Gaza vs South Sudan, or the entire continent of Africa, where no one seems to remotely care or has even shown a scintilla of sympathy.  Or outrage for that matter.

I asked before, and got no answer, how do you assign blame? Where do you start the timeline in something that has been going on for countless decades?

I know the simple answer for many, including yourself, whether you will admit it or not...

Israel is our ally, they are on the side of good. If you are not our ally, you are on the side of bad.

Gazans, Palestinians, etc., would argue that there actions were in self defense, due to repeated settler attacks, arrests and detainments without trials (they would call them hostages), military actions in the West Bank, and land seizures.

That is the problem in these types of things, they are way more complex than many will admit, and I'm really not taking sides, I just address the complexity of things.

But the fact that the entire world now thinks Israel has gone way way too far, to the extremes of genocide, should be a wake up call to a lot of people. And we are funding these acts, which is why so many are specifically distressed about it.

From Axios:

Keenly aware of Israel's reputational crisis, Netanyahu sat for an interview last week with the Nelk Boys — a team of MAGA YouTubers popular with young men.

The backlash was swift and extraordinary: the Nelk Boys' own audience turned on them, accusing the hosts of platforming a war criminal and failing to ask meaningful questions.

The group apologized by hosting a parade of openly antisemitic influencers to present "the other side," including white nationalist Nick Fuentes and "red pill" podcaster Myron Gaines.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 31, 2025, 10:35:29 AMI don't think many critics of Israel here - or in the West in general - argue that Hamas is good, moral or protective leaders of their people. 

"Hamas is bad, too" is little more than a deflection of the legitimate denunciation of Israel's actions here. Especially since we ought to be holding Israel to a higher standard than we would a terrorist organization.

I was purely replying to Jesu questioning if Hamas was shooting Palestinians. And it's not a deflection of "both sides are bad" but more a response to this continued idea of see of any time shots are fired in the area of civilians, it's automatically attributed to IDF cause "who else would be shooting" as if Hamas hasn't fired upon Palestinians countless times.

And while I think the "just release the hostages" knee jerk mantra is a bit tired and reductive, it also sort of muddles the very real fact that while Hamas may be defanged in terms of counter attacking Tel Aviv, they are still actively and violently sabotaging the lives of Gazans in unison with Israel, and giving Israel defenders plausible deniability for aggression. 

Honestly if Israel pulled back for 2 weeks and let the powers that be in Gaza, aka Hamas, deal with aid and the ongoing situation, it would be illuminating to some of that.  But the Likud lunatics would never allow it and the PR battle lines are probably too deeply dug at this point

Quote from: forgetful on July 31, 2025, 10:58:28 AMWhere do you start the timeline in something that has been going on for countless decades?

Israel is our ally, they are on the side of good. If you are not our ally, you are on the side of bad.

Gazans, Palestinians, etc., would argue that their actions were in self defense.

That is the problem in these types of things, they are way more complex than many will admit. I just address the complexity of things.

Forgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 31, 2025, 12:00:45 PMForgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

Muggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:36:06 AMThe IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation.

This is true if you ignore literally every single person that has been worked on the ground in Gaza.

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 31, 2025, 08:55:56 AMIF  If the Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, Let's give them New Jersey. They would gain about 1/3 more square miles and territory without a desert. what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate? What? Gumdrop smiles? Rivers of chocolate? Even for you, this is really weird.::)

Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2025, 12:12:37 PMMuggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

Wrong. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 06:34:58 AMWrong. 

LOL, were you trying to prove him right or something?

Quote from: The Sultan on July 31, 2025, 09:03:00 AMNo I am correct. And either you don't have the ability to see that, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

Regardless, your continued deflections on this topic pretty much shows a lot about your priorities really.

No, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd.  We all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.  The sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.  I'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 08:03:34 AMNo, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd. 

Nope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 08:03:34 AMWe all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.

Yes. Because they are committing genocide.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 08:03:34 AMThe sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.

I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 08:03:34 AMI'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 01, 2025, 08:11:24 AMNope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.


Yes. Because they are committing genocide.


I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.


I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

Ya, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 08:03:34 AMThe reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

Lots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 09:00:00 AMYa, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

It is neither, but you don't have the capacity to counter it in a meaningful way.

Which is your usual Scoop behavior, whether here or on the MUBB forum, so I don't know why I would expect any different now.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 01, 2025, 09:00:00 AMYa, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

Have you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 01, 2025, 09:22:29 AMHave you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

He is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 01, 2025, 09:49:18 AMHe is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Muggsy 2028!!

Quote from: MUBurrow on August 01, 2025, 09:06:47 AMLots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Including genocide

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMAs you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

On the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Congrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 01, 2025, 11:37:43 AMOn the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

To be fair, Catholic history is mixed on genocide.  Was both a victim and willing participant in it.  It's kind of confusing

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Empathy is dead

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 01, 2025, 11:41:04 AMCongrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

They should have earned their safety by being born somewhere else to different parents

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 01, 2025, 11:48:50 AMEmpathy is dead

I'd post a pic of Republican Jesus but rocky and topper would give me a vacation.

Quote from: MUBurrow on August 01, 2025, 09:06:47 AMLots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

I had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

While nowhere near Muggsy's stance, I'm probably more sympathetic/favorable to Israel than most here.  But my thing is, in the land of extremes, my frustations lie between the "ISRAEL IS THE NEW NAZIS WITH THIS GENOCIDE" and "RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, ALL PALESTINIANS ARE HAMAS". 

I don't want to argue the definitions or semantics of "genocide", but even if you want to contend its not a genocide and more the ugly business of war, my issue with Israel is they have no semblance of a plan anymore, IMO.  I don't think they (outside of some boisterous dopes in Likud) want to completely eradicate Gazans and turn it into an Israel resort destination, but I don't know what they are trying to accomplish anymore either.  And equally as bad, they have completely given up or abandoned any source of positive optics.  It doesn't have to be selecting "Israel Good Hamas Bad" or vice versa, both groups are guilty of heinous crap over the last year, but Israel as the more powerful and more responsible party, has allowed whatever Hamas narratives they want to run wild with their recklessness in this campaign.  Hamas and their PR arm live in plausible deniability and Israel doesn't.  As I said in my post replying to earlier to Jesu, Hamas has shot plenty of Palestinians, but because of a variety of factors and sloppy nonsense, the burden of proof is firmly on the IDF.  And every time they do something, malicious, accidental, as CYA, or otherwise to "non combatants", they take 5 steps backwards and automatically assume all blame for anything until explicitly proven otherwise...in a situation where explicit proof is hard to come by.

Back to my first paragraph in the post, outside of actual born Palestinian activists or commentators, I'm so baffled by the "the only way to solve/end this is must be the dismantling/dissolution of Israel as a state/nation" viewpoint as anything other than an overly emotional and fanciful ideological stance or argument.  I've seen a disturbing amount of posts/blogs/articles by Middle East experts or supposed geopolitical commentators calling for this and it seems so detached from reality or factual analysis.  People make comparisons to apartheid South Africa and the success there.  But the ANC was seeking equal rights and treatment and an end to state sponsored discrimination, not the destruction of South Africa the country (not to mention it was done on behalf of majority population against an empowered minority).  Same with other colonial rebellions, the majority population pushing back on an empowered minority, who also had a place of origin be it France, England, Portugal where the power sat, to depart to.

This would be a minority, demanding that their opposition who is both larger in number and infinitely more powerful, be disbanded and cease to exist.  Like instead of Quebec just pushing for independence, demanding that Canada be destroyed and dissolved so Quebec can stretch from sea to sea.  And of course, the only way that could ever happen was convincing the world to forcefully come and make Israel, militarily.  It sounds good in when screeching about the "settler colonialist project" but its just nonsensical, and like other things, just muddles and deflects from more realistic paths forward.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians".

Comparing the importance of defeating Germany and Japan in WWII to the current war in the Mideast makes no sense to me at all. Hamas has no massive, highly equipped army with tanks and advanced weaponry like Germany had that easily overran Europe, no battleships or submarines, no air force with thousands of planes. Hamas is a threat to Israel, not the entire world. A better analogy-but far from a great one as we did not share a border-would be Vietnam where we fought a guerilla war as well as a conventional one.

Hamas is severely weakened but will not lack for recruits among young males with a fierce hatred of Israel to rebuild their ranks. There will be new tunnels, new ways to attack. I wonder if there is widespread support for Hamas among Gazans, but Israel's campaign of suppression may shift Gazans towards accepting Hamas as their best bet to stop Israeli attacks.

nm-double post

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 01, 2025, 11:48:50 AMTheir enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas?

Lt. William Calley has joined the chat.

nm

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 01, 2025, 11:29:29 AMWith thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Edit: nm.  This "fell asleep in my chair watching the History Channel, I ignore the lessons of any war between 1945 and now" stuff isn't worth engaging with.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 01, 2025, 12:26:23 PMI had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

Israel has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 01, 2025, 02:37:54 PMIsrael has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

This is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period. 

There are like 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel.  Ask them if they'd rather live there or any other Arab country in the region.  Israel is dealing with a situation deeply rooted in religion and an evil, evil, ideology.  We and the West refuse to deal with this reality and are exacerbating vehement antisemitism all over the world. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 07:28:58 AMThis is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period. 

There are like 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel.  Ask them if they'd rather live there or any other Arab country in the region.  Israel is dealing with a situation deeply rooted in religion and an evil, evil, ideology.  We and the West refuse to deal with this reality and are exacerbating vehement antisemitism all over the world. 

Just wait until America starts expelling Jews and treating them like second class citizens.  It'll take awhile.  Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs will be the first non-desirable religions targeted but they'll come for the Jews and Catholics a soon enough.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 01, 2025, 02:37:54 PMIsrael has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

Hamas are serious people and do not believe Israel has a right to exist. As long as Hamas and their mind set to eliminate Israel remains there will be no end to this conflict. That too is morally wrong.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 07:32:42 AMJust wait until America starts expelling Jews and treating them like second class citizens.  It'll take awhile.  Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs will be the first non-desirable religions targeted but they'll come for the Jews and Catholics a soon enough.

Deny the goal of Islsmists and their terrorists all you want.  The Caliphate and Sharia Law aren't imaginary goals. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 07:39:06 AMDeny the goal of Ismaists and their terrorists all you want.  The Caliphate and Sharia Law aren't imaginary goals. 

Neither is a pure America.  That's not an imaginary goal either

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 07:40:08 AMNeither is a pure America.  That's not an imaginary goal either

My 5 point plan covers them as well. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 07:43:00 AMMy 5 point plan covers them as well. 

Too late.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 02, 2025, 07:35:57 AMHamas are serious people and do not believe Israel has a right to exist. As long as Hamas and their mind set to eliminate Israel remains there will be no end to this conflict. That too is morally wrong.

No kidding.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 07:28:58 AMThis is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period.   

Actually it is you who has no understanding of the nature of this conflict. From the very beginning this was about Iran and its proxies attacking Israel, knowing they would get this response, because they were on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia.  And SA is way more of a rival to Iran than Israel is.

It's not 1975 any longer. Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt. They by and large get along with Jordan. As I said, they were on the verge of a historic treaty with Saudi Arabia. One that is now impossible due to this response. So I suggest that you actually do a little research and gain a little understanding of how we got here, because your mindset is about fifty years out of date.

And yes, a huge part of this is the morality of Israel's actions.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 02, 2025, 08:00:20 AMActually it is you who has no understanding of the nature of this conflict. From the very beginning this was about Iran and its proxies attacking Israel, knowing they would get this response, because they were on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia.  And SA is way more of a rival to Iran than Israel is.

It's not 1975 any longer. Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt. They by and large get along with Jordan. As I said, they were on the verge of a historic treaty with Saudi Arabia. One that is now impossible due to this response. So I suggest that you actually do a little research and gain a little understanding of how we got here, because your mindset is about fifty years out of date.

And yes, a huge part of this is the morality of Israel's actions.

Your hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 08:26:09 AMYour hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

Hope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 08:26:09 AMYour hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

Deflect, deflect, deflect. That's all you got.

Muggs, or anyone else -

What evidence would have to be presented to you, or who would the messenger have to be, for you to admit Israel is committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 08:50:14 AMHope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

"Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" - some very fine people, Charlottesville, 2017

Quote from: jesmu84 on August 02, 2025, 10:27:19 AMMuggs, or anyone else -

What evidence would have to be presented to you, or who would the messenger have to be, for you to admit Israel is committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing?

Genocide and ethnic cleansing are two different things.  Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group or race.  Ethnic cleansing is murdering an ethnic group (or you can argue religious group) for the purpose of power within a region.  Why do 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and work under their laws with the same freedoms as Jews?  Why do they live better and are treated better than Arabs in all the other countries in the Middle East?  If Israel is a " genocidal" state or engaging in "ethic cleansing" why aren't they massacring all the Palestinians within Israel?  Or the West Bank?  Or Arabs all over the Middle East for that matter?

Quote from: MU82 on August 02, 2025, 10:28:51 AM"Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" - some very fine people, Charlottesville, 2017

They will be shipped to Stalag-ator Alcatraz first.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 02, 2025, 09:58:10 AMDeflect, deflect, deflect. That's all you got.

Not a deflection at all, you refuse to answer the question.  It's called a fking war.  War sucks, it isn't humanitarian and has never been.  Your obsession over Israel as opposed to other wars and conflicts, wars that we have been involved with and the West, wars where countless innocent children die and civilians, all over the freaking world, is frankly mendacious and embarrassing.  I simply do not believe you care more about Palestinian lives vs Sudanese lives, Libyan lives, Afghani lives, etc, etc, etc.  And if you do actually care more about Palestinians, your explanation is utter horse excrement.  Your "Israel is our ally", ergo they're genocidal, is a complete load of crap Fluffy.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 08:50:14 AMHope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

I'm already angry. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 11:25:06 AMNot a deflection at all, you refuse to answer the question.  It's called a fking war.  War sucks, it isn't humanitarian and has never been.  Your obsession over Israel as opposed to other wars and conflicts, wars that we have been involved with and the West, wars where countless innocent children die and civilians, all over the freaking world, is frankly mendacious and embarrassing.  I simply do not believe you care more about Palestinian lives vs Sudanese lives, Libyan lives, Afghani lives, etc, etc, etc.  And if you do actually care more about Palestinians, your explanation is utter horse excrement.  Your "Israel is our ally", ergo they're genocidal, is a complete load of crap Fluffy.

For the millionth time, you don't have to express outrage over EVERY injustice to be concerned about a SPECIFIC injustice.

And this, once again, is a mere deflection because you (apparently) don't have the ability to actually defend your point of view.

Everyone: This is bad
Muggsy: There are a lot of bad things. You are a hypocrite because you are not talking about these other bad things.

See how dumb that is?

Quote from: The Sultan on August 02, 2025, 11:50:24 AMFor the millionth time, you don't have to express outrage over EVERY injustice to be concerned about a SPECIFIC injustice.

And this, once again, is a mere deflection because you (apparently) don't have the ability to actually defend your point of view.

Everyone: This is bad
Muggsy: There are a lot of bad things. You are a hypocrite because you are not talking about these other bad things.

See how dumb that is?

You've missed the point completely.  You're a hypocrite because of your obsession over Israel and talking about it constantly .  You wouldn't be a hypocrite if you gave it thr exact same attention you and the vast majority of people give other "bad things".   Which is essentially not discussing them at all.  And your reasoning for doing so is again, a pile of excrement. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 12:27:11 PMYou've missed the point completely.  You're a hypocrite because of your obsession over Israel and talking about it constantly .  You wouldn't be a hypocrite if you gave it thr exact same attention you and the vast majority of people give other "bad things".   Which is essentially not discussing them at all.  And your reasoning for doing so is again, a pile of excrement. 

I talk about Israel "constantly?" I literally only talk about it when it is brought up here. Should I be randomly starting topics about all other human rights issues? Just a bizarre standard of yours really.

That's like me saying "Muggsy is a hypocrite because he talks about manatees all the time but rarely talks about other aquatic mammals." Again, do you see how dumb that is?

Quote from: The Sultan on August 02, 2025, 01:06:14 PMI talk about Israel "constantly?" I literally only talk about it when it is brought up here. Should I be randomly starting topics about all other human rights issues? Just a bizarre standard of yours really.

That's like me saying "Muggsy is a hypocrite because he talks about manatees all the time but rarely talks about other aquatic mammals." Again, do you see how dumb that is?

I started a thread on Syria.  You meaning the echo chamber here.  And most of the world frankly.  Israel will always lose in the media.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 12:27:11 PMYou've missed the point completely.  You're a hypocrite because of your obsession over Israel and talking about it constantly .  You wouldn't be a hypocrite if you gave it thr exact same attention you and the vast majority of people give other "bad things".   Which is essentially not discussing them at all.  And your reasoning for doing so is again, a pile of excrement. 

Whoooooooooooooooooosh

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 11:15:37 AMGenocide and ethnic cleansing are two different things.  Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group or race.  Ethnic cleansing is murdering an ethnic group (or you can argue religious group) for the purpose of power within a region.  Why do 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and work under their laws with the same freedoms as Jews?  Why do they live better and are treated better than Arabs in all the other countries in the Middle East?  If Israel is a " genocidal" state or engaging in "ethic cleansing" why aren't they massacring all the Palestinians within Israel?  Or the West Bank?  Or Arabs all over the Middle East for that matter?

You didn't answer the question

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 11:15:37 AMGenocide and ethnic cleansing are two different things.  Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group or race.  Ethnic cleansing is murdering an ethnic group (or you can argue religious group) for the purpose of power within a region.  Why do 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and work under their laws with the same freedoms as Jews?  Why do they live better and are treated better than Arabs in all the other countries in the Middle East?  If Israel is a " genocidal" state or engaging in "ethic cleansing" why aren't they massacring all the Palestinians within Israel?  Or the West Bank?  Or Arabs all over the Middle East for that matter?

Lol

Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address Hamas.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 02, 2025, 04:25:19 PMPerhaps a contingent of scoopers should address Hamas.

I think they're the bad guys

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 04:39:09 PMI think they're the bad guys

Yeah. The contingent of scoopers needs to get Hamas to do whatever Muggsy wants them to do. But perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the Israelis as well. 

Just trying to help Muggsy out here. The idea of a contingent of scoopers addressing the team was a game thread idea he had during a DePaul game that was not going as well as Muggsy thought it should.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 02, 2025, 04:41:24 PMYeah. The contingent of scoopers needs to get Hamas to do whatever Muggsy wants them to do. But perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the Israelis as well. 

Just trying to help Muggsy out here. The idea of a contingent of scoopers addressing the team was a game thread idea he had during a DePaul game that was not going as well as Muggsy thought it should.

If Marquette needs to commit war crimes, genocide and/or break international law to win basketball games, Muggsy is the guy to talk to

Quote from: The Sultan on August 02, 2025, 11:50:24 AMFor the millionth time, you don't have to express outrage over EVERY injustice to be concerned about a SPECIFIC injustice.

And this, once again, is a mere deflection because you (apparently) don't have the ability to actually defend your point of view.

Everyone: This is bad
Muggsy: There are a lot of bad things. You are a hypocrite because you are not talking about these other bad things.

See how dumb that is?

It would be like walking up to a person trying to get donations for lymphoma research and screaming: "Sure, but what about pancreatic cancer and brain cancer? Why don't you care about those? You obviously hate people with pancreases and brains!"

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 11:15:37 AMWhy do 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and work under their laws with the same freedoms as Jews? 

There are 2 million Israeli Muslims, not Palestinians living in Israel.  Its a relevant distinction.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 05:09:18 PMIf Marquette needs to commit war crimes, genocide and/or break international law to win basketball games, Muggsy is the guy to talk to

Muggsy making the dental school redundant? two birds one stone

Quote from: JWags85 on August 02, 2025, 08:23:14 PMThere are 2 million Israeli Muslims, not Palestinians living in Israel.  Its a relevant distinction.

Ethically or nationality wise?  Perhaps.  Ideologically wise?  Do they live 1000 tines better in Israel or not?  In this so called genocidal state?  Why don't they slaughter them? 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 02, 2025, 04:41:24 PMJust trying to help Muggsy out here. The idea of a contingent of scoopers addressing the team was a game thread idea he had during a DePaul game that was not going as well as Muggsy thought it should.

Isn't that every game?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 02, 2025, 05:09:18 PMIf Marquette needs to commit war crimes, genocide and/or break international law to win basketball games, Muggsy is the guy to talk to

Ohhhh.....International Law.  Hamas follows that  So does ISIS.  So does Hezbollah.  Iran.  What a crock of s.  There has been more vitriol here towards Israel than Hamas and Iranian proxy terrorists.  You all need to think about this for at least a minute or two. 

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 03, 2025, 08:10:42 AMIsn't that every game?

Nope.  And Scoop Snoop knows my comment was in jest. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 08:16:51 AMOhhhh.....International Law.  Hamas follows that  So does ISIS.  So does Hezbollah.  Iran.  What a crock of s.  There has been more vitriol here towards Israel than Hamas and Iranian proxy terrorists.  You all need to think about this for at least a minute or two. 

No one is defending Hamas, or Iranian proxy groups. We all agree on them so no need to speak up.

Some, including yourself, are supporting Israeli actions. An ally, committing genocide with our funding. That is why people speak up about them.

All these other groups you ask why no one condemns, we all agree on them being terrible and we aren't funding them. Again no reason to speak up, everyone is in agreement.

You should ask yourself, why you condemn all those bad actors, committing war crimes and atrocities, but defend the Israeli government. You keep calling others hypocrites who are consistent across the board, where you are actually inconsistent.

And all of this is occurring with the backdrop of young people being barred from protesting on campuses against genocide.

And others barred from speaking up.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/03/gaza-aid-israel-authorities-hospitals

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 08:16:51 AMOhhhh.....International Law.  Hamas follows that  So does ISIS.  So does Hezbollah.  Iran.  What a crock of s.  There has been more vitriol here towards Israel than Hamas and Iranian proxy terrorists.  You all need to think about this for at least a minute or two. 

No, I don't

https://www.jns.org/the-starvation-weapon-hamass-latest-tool-of-terror/

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 09:31:29 AMhttps://www.jns.org/the-starvation-weapon-hamass-latest-tool-of-terror/

Ah yes. The Sheldon Adelson financed Jewish News Syndicate. I'm sure this will provide an accurate description of what's actually happening.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 08:16:51 AMYou all need to think about this for at least a minute or two. 

Your MO has consistently been Muggsy vs. everyone else here throughout this thread, with you alone possessing the truth. What is the probability that we are all wrong?  ;D

Stating that we need to "think about this for a minute or two" is hilarious, considering that you do not bother to think about anything for even a second or two. You simply blurt out you "think" and declare it reality and immutable truth. Substituting "Muggsy's" for "our" in my second signature sums up my opinion of you very nicely.

Nice try regarding the scoop contingent. You are incapable of jest.  Did you claim it was in jest when I used it as a thread title to ridicule it?

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 03, 2025, 09:39:47 AMYour MO has consistently been Muggsy vs. everyone else here throughout this thread, with you alone possessing the truth. What is the probability that we are all wrong?  ;D

Stating that we need to "think about this for a minute or two" is hilarious, considering that you do not bother to think about anything for even a second or two. You simply blurt out you "think" and declare it reality and immutable truth. Substituting "Muggsy's" for "our" in my second signature sums up my opinion of you very nicely.

Nice try regarding the scoop contingent. You are incapable of jest.  Did you claim it was in jest when I used it as a thread title to ridicule it?

The probability is about 98%. 

Universally people said Winston was wrong.  Whoops. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 10:32:36 AMThe probability is about 98%. 

Universally people said Winston was wrong.  Whoops. 

Lolwut

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 10:32:36 AMUniversally people said Winston was wrong. 

Despite their catchy (albeit grammatically incorrect) jingle, Winston made mediocre cigarettes.

Bump.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 01, 2025, 09:49:18 AMWith the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 10:32:36 AMThe probability is about 98%. 

Universally people said Winston was wrong.  Whoops. 

Thank you for presenting yet another example of your proud ignorance of history. ::) You blurted out "universally" so it must be true. Apparently, you read a snippet somewhere that supports your blurt and offer that as proof of your expertise in the enormously complex historical setting at the time. Omniscient Messiahs intuitively understand these matters. The rest of us must spend long hours learning about what took place and review various accounts.
 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 03, 2025, 11:07:40 AMThank you for presenting yet another example of your proud ignorance of history. ::) You blurted out "universally" so it must be true. Apparently, you read a snippet somewhere that supports your blurt and offer that as proof of your expertise in the enormously complex historical setting at the time. Omniscient Messiahs intuitively understand these matters. The rest of us must spend long hours learning about what took place and review various accounts.
 

Uhuh. 

Quote from: The Sultan on August 03, 2025, 09:37:36 AMAh yes. The Sheldon Adelson financed Jewish News Syndicate. I'm sure this will provide an accurate description of what's actually happening.

Read it and then provide your rebuttal.

What is happening is Hamas killed over 1200 civilians and took hundreds hostage.  They can end things at any time by freeing the hostages that remain.  They have no moral high ground.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 11:12:10 AMUhuh. 

Simple reply from a simpleton. Perfect!

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 11:13:31 AMRead it and then provide your rebuttal.

What is happening is Hamas killed over 1200 civilians and took hundreds hostage.  They can end things at any time by freeing the hostages that remain.  They have no moral high ground.

I read it. It was one-sided and biased like I expected it to be.

Regardless yes I completely understand that Hamas could end this and doesn't have the moral high ground. That doesn't absolve Israel however.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 11:13:31 AMRead it and then provide your rebuttal.

What is happening is Hamas killed over 1200 civilians and took hundreds hostage.  They can end things at any time by freeing the hostages that remain.  They have no moral high ground.

We all obviously want Hamas to free all remaining hostages. But what makes you sure that would "end it"?

Also, you know that starving Palestinian kids who are being shot while in line for food aren't the same as Hamas, right?

To repeat, I am on Israel's "side" in the conflict. But its leadership is corrupt and doing the country no favors on the international stage. Even many powerful Americans who were strongly behind them are disgusted.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 09:31:29 AMhttps://www.jns.org/the-starvation-weapon-hamass-latest-tool-of-terror/

For the millionth time, "Hamas is bad" is not a justification for war crimes by Israel.

But will you denounce the convicted terrorist supporter and inciter Ben Gvir?

Quote from: Pakuni on August 03, 2025, 12:32:24 PMFor the millionth time, "Hamas is bad" is not a justification for war crimes by Israel.

The millionth time, Hamas wants to kill every Jew it can and doesn't care if Gazans get in the way of that. 

Israel put up with their terrorist
far too long.  War is hell.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:06:36 PMThe millionth time, Hamas wants to kill every Jew it can and doesn't care if Gazans get in the way of that. 

Israel put up with their terrorist
far too long.  War is hell.

Morally Israel's response should be proportionate. It hasn't been. People can call them out on that without taking the side of Hamas.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 03, 2025, 04:13:21 PMMorally Israel's response should be proportionate. It hasn't been. People can call them out on that without taking the side of Hamas.

Proportionality is a luxury response for nations insulated by oceans.

Proportionality also encourages more attacks like Oct 7. 

Proportionality is always the call of the side that is losing.

War is hell.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:38:26 PMProportionality is a luxury response for nations insulated by oceans.

Proportionality also encourages more attacks like Oct 7. 

Proportionality is always the call of the side that is losing.

War is hell.

No, no, no and yes.

But congrats on supporting those who, ans a result of their inaction, is causing thousands to die. But I'm sure your trite little phrases make you feel better.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:38:26 PMProportionality is a luxury response for nations insulated by oceans.

Proportionality also encourages more attacks like Oct 7. 

Proportionality is always the call of the side that is losing.

War is hell.

Was war hell during the Rape of Nanjing?  My Lai?  Katyn?  Genocide isn't a proportional response

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:38:26 PMProportionality is a luxury response for nations insulated by oceans.

Proportionality also encourages more attacks like Oct 7. 

Proportionality is always the call of the side that is losing.

War is hell.

Your comfort and confidence posting this on a basketball message board about how it's inevitable that women/children/civilians are shot and starved systematically because war is hell is a luxury response in itself.

I hope you don't someday have to make a decision to chance getting shot in the head to get some flour for your loved ones. I'd imagine your thoughts wouldn't be "well war is hell and proportionality isn't a luxury the shooters can afford."

Again, empathy is dead

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:06:36 PMThe millionth time, Hamas wants to kill every Jew it can and doesn't care if Gazans get in the way of that. 

Israel put up with their terrorist
far too long.  War is hell.

I assume by "put up with" you mean "propped up."
As in, funded and helped keep in power.

Anyhow, you can't pretend to be outraged by events like Oct. 7 while also defending the intentional killing of noncombatants. I mean, you can, but people will correctly call you on your bullsh-t.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 04:38:26 PMProportionality is a luxury response for nations insulated by oceans.

Proportionality also encourages more attacks like Oct 7. 

Proportionality is always the call of the side that is losing.

War is hell.

The Geneva Convention is for suckers and losers.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 03, 2025, 05:02:30 PMThe Geneva Convention is for suckers and losers.

I don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Quote from: Pakuni on August 03, 2025, 05:02:30 PMThe Geneva Convention is for suckers and losers.

Which is why Hamas doesn't follow it, but will hide behind it when it suits them.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 05:39:16 PMI don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never halogen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Islam sucks

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 03, 2025, 05:45:36 PMIslam sucks

There are significant probs within sects of that religion.  Ignoring it, and not dealing with this reality doesn't help.  Convert or die is a problem.   Their treatment of women and homosexuals is a problem.  Fear of death is a problem.  Having to have arned bodyguards for criticizing issues within Islam is a problem.  Our worldwide goal should be to help secular Muslims in lieu of allowing this horror show.  You're very comfortable criticizing Christianity.  Perhaps you should consider the pure evil ideology of a significant minority of Muslims. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 05:58:14 PM

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 03, 2025, 05:45:36 PMIslam sucks

There are significant probs within sects of that religion.  Ignoring it, and not dealing with this reality doesn't help.  Convert or die is a problem.   Their treatment of women and homosexuals is a problem.  Fear of death is a problem.  Having to have arned bodyguards for criticizing issues within Islam is a problem.  Our worldwide goal should be to help secular Muslims in lieu of allowing this horror show.  You're very comfortable criticizing Christianity.  Perhaps you should consider the pure evil ideology of a significant minority of Muslims. 

All religion sucks

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 05:39:16 PMI don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

What are you talking about?
Islam is criticized all the time.
And people in Israel celebrate the death of Gazan civilians on the daily. Fans of the country's most popular soccer team have a chant that goes "There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-of-israeli-nationalists-chant-death-to-arabs-during-annual-procession-through-jerusalem

Quote from: Pakuni on August 03, 2025, 06:06:49 PMWhat are you talking about?
Islam is criticized all the time.
And people in Israel celebrate the death of Gazan civilians on the daily. Fans of the country's most popular soccer team have a chant that goes "There are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-of-israeli-nationalists-chant-death-to-arabs-during-annual-procession-through-jerusalem

You've been brainwashed by the media.  Individuals jagoffs are everywhere.  And if I were to burn a Koran in the middle of any major city in the USA it wouldn't end well for me. 

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 05:41:43 PMWhich is why Hamas doesn't follow it, but will hide behind it when it suits them.

Hamas isn't a nation-state that has signed the Geneva Convention.
Do you know who is?

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:07:53 PMYou've been brainwashed by the media.  Individuals jagoffs are everywhere.  And if I were to burn a Koran in the middle of any major city in the USA it wouldn't end well for me. 

We've reached the white grievance stage of Muggsy's arguments.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 05:39:16 PMI don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Again this all irrelevant to what is being discussed. No one is supporting terrorists here.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 03, 2025, 06:04:37 PMAll religion sucks

That's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 03, 2025, 06:14:18 PMAgain this all irrelevant to what is being discussed. No one is supporting terrorists here.

You're  indirectly supporting an ideology.  What exactly is your solution once this ends?  A Palestinian State?  In Gaza or within Israel? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:15:17 PMThat's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

No, they all suck

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:17:03 PMYou're  indirectly supporting an ideology.  What exactly is your solution once this ends?  A Palestinian State?  In Gaza or within Israel? 

I am not indirectly supporting anything. That's simplistic and reductive and let's people excuse bad behavior.

And I have no idea what the permanent solution is - and I don't think that's the point of the discussion anyway.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 03, 2025, 06:22:23 PMI am not indirectly supporting anything. That's simplistic and reductive and let's people excuse bad behavior.

And I have no idea what the permanent solution is - and I don't think that's the point of the discussion anyway.

Shocker.  You have no solutions and refuse to deal with the fact that Palestinian leadership has zero interest in peace and never have.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:31:11 PMShocker.  You have no solutions and refuse to deal with the fact that Palestinian leadership has zero interest in peace and never have.

Lol. You haven't answered a single question in this topic. And now you're deflecting again. Very weak.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 03, 2025, 06:34:01 PMLol. You haven't answered a single question in this topic. And now you're deflecting again. Very weak.

The opposite is the truth.  No one has answered my questions. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:35:59 PMThe opposite is the truth.  No one has answered my questions. 

Because your questions aren't on topic and merely deflections.

Quote from: Badgerhater on August 03, 2025, 11:13:31 AMRead it and then provide your rebuttal.

What is happening is Hamas killed over 1200 civilians and took hundreds hostage.  They can end things at any time by freeing the hostages that remain.  They have no moral high ground.

October 7th was terrible, but your statement is inaccurate.

736 civilians were killed, 79 foreign nationals, and 379 members of the Israeli Security Forces.

It was an atrocity that should never have happened.

Thinking about responding to a Muggsy comment on this thread?

(https://i0.wp.com/media0.giphy.com/media/gk8gHy50UbtzIWYTig/giphy.gif?resize=640%2C640&ssl=1&crop=1)

Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on August 03, 2025, 08:38:53 PMThinking about responding to a Muggsy comment on this thread?

(https://i0.wp.com/media0.giphy.com/media/gk8gHy50UbtzIWYTig/giphy.gif?resize=640%2C640&ssl=1&crop=1)

I wish more people here felt like this.

Muggsy is Scoop's version of Hans Christian Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 03, 2025, 06:04:37 PMAll religion sucks

All but mine. Please send me lots of money and I'll assure you eternal life.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 04, 2025, 08:53:52 AMAll but mine. Please send me lots of money and I'll assure you eternal life.

Religion is the world's oldest grift

From NYT columnist David French:

I think it's fair to describe me as a Christian Zionist. I believe in the necessity of the Jewish people to have their own safe, secure homeland. And while I have never thought Israel was perfect (far from it), I have seen the antisemitism and genocidal intent animating its enemies in the Middle East, including Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

I can see the extraordinary antisemitism and bias in the larger international community. When a United Nations that includes North Korea, Syria, Russia and China condemns Israel more than any other nation in the world (by far), you know that the Jewish state is being singled out.

I'm also a veteran of the Iraq war who served as judge advocate for an armored cavalry regiment during the surge in Iraq in 2007 and 2008. Before I became a journalist, I was part of a legal team that defended Israel from war crime accusations after Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza war of 2008 and 2009.

I know that Israel had the right under international law to destroy Hamas's military and to remove Hamas from power after the massacre in southern Israel on Oct. 7. In other words, Israel had the right to respond to a terrorist force like Hamas the way the United States and its allies responded to a terrorist force like ISIS after ISIS launched its terrorist campaign across the Middle East and across Europe.

So, yes, I consider myself a friend of Israel. But now its friends need to stage an intervention. The Israeli government has gone too far. It has engineered a staggering humanitarian crisis, and that crisis is both a moral atrocity and a long-term threat to Israel itself.

Civilian casualties were inevitable when Israel responded to Hamas, but the suffering of Palestinian civilians is far beyond the bounds of military necessity. The people of Gaza, already grieving the loss of thousands of children, now face a famine — and children once again will bear the brunt of the pain.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/03/opinion/israel-famine-hamas-netanyahu-trump.html

Fantastic article. Written by a former JAG officer and writer for the National Review as well.

"The dominant power in Gaza is Israel, not Hamas, and Israel, not Hamas, is the only entity with both the power to control aid distribution and the ability to obtain and distribute aid in the Gaza Strip. There is no way for Gazans to feed themselves. They are utterly dependent on Israel, and Israel removed the United Nations from the aid distribution network without replacing it with an effective alternative.

...

Hamas should lay down its arms. It should release every hostage. But Hamas's war crimes — including its murders, its hostage taking and its concealment among civilians and civilian buildings — do not relieve Israel of its own moral and legal obligations."

When you have lost someone like David French, you might be murdering too many women & children.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 04, 2025, 11:55:52 AMFantastic article. Written by a former JAG officer and writer for the National Review as well.

"The dominant power in Gaza is Israel, not Hamas, and Israel, not Hamas, is the only entity with both the power to control aid distribution and the ability to obtain and distribute aid in the Gaza Strip. There is no way for Gazans to feed themselves. They are utterly dependent on Israel, and Israel removed the United Nations from the aid distribution network without replacing it with an effective alternative.

...

Hamas should lay down its arms. It should release every hostage. But Hamas's war crimes — including its murders, its hostage taking and its concealment among civilians and civilian buildings — do not relieve Israel of its own moral and legal obligations."

Its a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

You can argue Israel is screwed in this situation either way and all that will happen in the future is more undue suffering for civilians caught in the middle and I don't really think that is all together untrue.   But you have to at least see how that is not very palatable for a pro-Israel contingent.

I said earlier in this thread, the biggest and most foolish mistake Israel has made in all of this is playing into Hamas' narrative and PR angle so that there is no longer any push or call for Hamas to give in, outside of voices who are immediately dismissed as genocidal Zionists.  Not talking about the pro-Hamas idiots who think 10/7 was a glorious resistance and think they are still winning.  But anyone to the right of that has folded anything related to Hamas into the horrible plight of Palestinian civilians so that anything punitive towards Hamas or potentially damaging to them moving forward is completely off the table so long as Palestinians are harmed in the process.

Thanks for posting 82. It is great to read a rationally written article to counter some of the wackier posts in this thread.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 01:06:45 PMIts a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

From the article:

"There has always been a better way to defeat Hamas, and no one knows this better than veterans of the Iraq war. We've watched Israel make the same mistakes we made early in the war, when we repeatedly attacked and destroyed terrorist cells but the terrorists always came back.

We played a deadly and destructive version of Whac-a-Mole, reducing neighborhoods and streets to ruin, only to bomb the rubble weeks and months later when Al Qaeda returned. The only way to stop the cycle was to seize ground, hold it and protect and secure the civilian population until we could hand control over to local authorities.

That approach has a double virtue. It's not just kinder to civilians; it's far more effective militarily. I'm not just saying this. Gen. David Petraeus, the commander of American forces in Iraq during the surge — when we turned the tide of the Iraq war in part by protecting the Iraqi population — has made this argument over and over and over again since Oct. 7."

Quote from: The Sultan on August 04, 2025, 01:18:44 PMWe played a deadly and destructive version of Whac-a-Mole, reducing neighborhoods and streets to ruin, only to bomb the rubble weeks and months later when Al Qaeda returned. The only way to stop the cycle was to seize ground, hold it and protect and secure the civilian population until we could hand control over to local authorities.

While I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 01:34:06 PMWhile I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

I think the local population would be more favorable to the IDF if they were doing something to help feed them. But maybe the time for that was months ago.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 04, 2025, 01:37:05 PMI think the local population would be more favorable to the IDF if they were doing something to help feed them. But maybe the time for that was months ago.

I mean, do you think the local population was favorable to the IDF even in November of 2023?

I'm not trying to say some nonsense like "Gazans are all Hamas", but I pretty sure there is a huge chasm between "We don't feel Hamas is the best for Gaza/Palestinian future" and "We will help Israel to remove Hamas".  I don't think condemnation for Hamas' actions on 10/7 ever got above 50% locally.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 04, 2025, 01:15:42 PMThanks for posting 82. It is great to read a rationally written article to counter some of the wackier posts in this thread.

Thanks. Except for the "Christian Zionist" thing, I mostly share French's take on this situation.

He did a great job of articulating it in that column. I'm really not sure how any rational, objective person who actually cares about human life could disagree with it.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 01:34:06 PMWhile I don't disagree in theory, who is the local authorities or aligned forces for Israel to hand off to? How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?  I mean, in theory maybe a UN peacekeeping force, but if thats at all tied to UNRWA, that probably doesn't work,

The Iraq war was the US aiding/leading Iraqi forces against Al-Qaeda/ISIS/JRTN.  They could hand off to the local Iraqi forces after gains/wins were made.  Who is there to work with/hand off to?  There is no one in Gaza opposing Hamas unless you're creating some armed/trained civilian force, which seems a bit far fetched.  Fatah hates Hamas but its not like they have any appetite to join this with Israel.

You are right to point out, "How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?".

You don't, because how do you as a civilian accept protection from a military force seeded with people indiscriminately killing your community?

The IDF won't stop having quick trigger fingers due to above mentioned seeding in the population; and the Palestinians have no reason to believe that compliance would make anything better. There is scant little evidence from the past and Israeli Gov that "behaving" would decrease the dehumanizing violence and starvation.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 01:42:00 PMI mean, do you think the local population was favorable to the IDF even in November of 2023?

I'm not trying to say some nonsense like "Gazans are all Hamas", but I pretty sure there is a huge chasm between "We don't feel Hamas is the best for Gaza/Palestinian future" and "We will help Israel to remove Hamas".  I don't think condemnation for Hamas' actions on 10/7 ever got above 50% locally.

I seem to remember pretty much universal condemnation for 10/7, and it being still maintained that murdering hundreds of civilians is still bad. I think you might be conflating the 50% of the "why it was not a surprising something like this was attempted" with the "what actually happened is bad".

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 04, 2025, 01:51:52 PMYou are right to point out, "How do you "protect" a civilian population when its seeded with people trying to kill you?".

You don't, because how do you as a civilian accept protection from a military force seeded with people indiscriminately killing your community?

The IDF won't stop having quick trigger fingers due to above mentioned seeding in the population; and the Palestinians have no reason to believe that compliance would make anything better. There is scant little evidence from the past and Israeli Gov that "behaving" would decrease the dehumanizing violence and starvation.

Yea, don't disagree with much here, which is why its such a convoluted problem beyond "Gazan civilians are being disproportionately harmed and it should stop".  Outside of the people who think Hamas was justified or don't believe Israel should exist moving forward, not many have considered what happens after that.  Cause I don't see how a strategy like was executed in Iraq would have worked before, much less moving forward.

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 04, 2025, 01:55:52 PMI seem to remember pretty much universal condemnation for 10/7, and it being still maintained that murdering hundreds of civilians is still bad. I think you might be conflating the 50% of the "why it was not a surprising something like this was attempted" with the "what actually happened is bad".

Globally sure, maybe right away, but not in the polls coming out of Gaza from what I recall or looked up earlier today.  And I think there was no universal condemnation as soon as Israel made their first strike backs.  It took less than a week of retaliation for sentiment already to build up against Israel.  I mean, the last week Ive seen a bunch of references claiming how Hamas was offering a truce on 10/8-10/9 and how disgusting it was that Israel refused that.  Aka people feel it was bad but if Hamas said "sorry" and dictated a few concessions, Israel should have let it go .  Anything more than that was unfair.

It's almost as if it was never about the hostages.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told ministers in the past day that he will seek cabinet backing for a plan to fully occupy the Gaza Strip, despite objections from within the IDF, Hebrew media reports.
Several ministers reportedly said Netanyahu used the term "occupation of the Strip" in private conversations describing his vision for the expansion of military operations in Gaza — a notable shift in tone as the government prepares to discuss the future of the Gaza campaign.
A senior official close to the premier is quoted in Ynet as saying, "The die is cast — we are going for a full occupation of the Gaza Strip."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-set-to-push-for-major-expansion-of-gaza-offensive-reports-say/

Quote from: MuggsyB on July 24, 2025, 09:35:52 AMThis is a powderkeg situation that's about to get really ugly. 

What's happening in Syria?

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 02:33:40 PMIt's almost as if it was never about the hostages.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told ministers in the past day that he will seek cabinet backing for a plan to fully occupy the Gaza Strip, despite objections from within the IDF, Hebrew media reports.
Several ministers reportedly said Netanyahu used the term "occupation of the Strip" in private conversations describing his vision for the expansion of military operations in Gaza — a notable shift in tone as the government prepares to discuss the future of the Gaza campaign.
A senior official close to the premier is quoted in Ynet as saying, "The die is cast — we are going for a full occupation of the Gaza Strip."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-set-to-push-for-major-expansion-of-gaza-offensive-reports-say/

Question, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse?  Or that it was the push internally after 10/7 deciding that the 2005 withdrawal experiment and subsequent Hamas takeover meant from that plan with Gaza didn't work?

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 02:50:49 PMQuestion, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse?  Or that it was the push internally after 10/7 deciding that the 2005 withdrawal experiment and subsequent Hamas takeover meant from that plan with Gaza didn't work?

I'm not sure what you mean by all along - since 1996? 2009? 2022?

I do believe that Israel's post-10/7 response very quickly became "never let a good crisis go to waste" and the intention since early on has been to displace the vast majority of the Palestinian population and settle Gaza as they have the West Bank, but on steroids.
Some of the more hardline elements in Israel were saying this as far back as 2023. Clearly there was an element of getting hostages back and weakening Hamas from the onset, but the ultimate goal (as far as I see it) has long been full occupation and eventual settlement.

Edit: Let's remember, "Options for a policy regarding Gaza's civilian population" was drafted six days after Oct. 7.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 03:27:07 PMI'm not sure what you mean by all along - since 1996? 2009? 2022?

I do believe that Israel's post-10/7 response very quickly became "never let a good crisis go to waste" and the intention since early on has been to displace the vast majority of the Palestinian population and settle Gaza as they have the West Bank, but on steroids.
Some of the more hardline elements in Israel were saying this as far back as 2023. Clearly there was an element of getting hostages back and weakening Hamas from the onset, but the ultimate goal (as far as I see it) has long been full occupation and eventual settlement.

Edit: Let's remember, Options for a policy regarding Gaza's civilian population" was drafted six days after Oct. 7.

2022 basically. To a lesser extent from 2009, but more within the current administration since his re-election in 2022.

I think post-10/7 there was never any intention of further attempting to co-exist with Hamas, rightly or wrongly.  But as mentioned in previous posts, there was no leadership structure outside of Hamas to hand over to or champion, so it was never gonna be easy in the most scenarios from Israel.  But clearly Likud government leadership DGAF and blasted ahead wantonly

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 03:57:22 PM2022 basically. To a lesser extent from 2009, but more within the current administration since his re-election in 2022.

I think post-10/7 there was never any intention of further attempting to co-exist with Hamas, rightly or wrongly.  But as mentioned in previous posts, there was no leadership structure outside of Hamas to hand over to or champion, so it was never gonna be easy in the most scenarios from Israel.  But clearly Likud government leadership DGAF and blasted ahead wantonly

That's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 05:13:10 PMThat's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

Some weirdos might call it manifest destiny

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 05:13:10 PMThat's a weak justification.
There was no leadership structure outside the IJA in Japan post-WWII, but the solution wasn't a long-term/permanent occupation. Same with postwar Germany, Italy, etc.
The only way a long-term occupation works for Israel is by removing the Palestinian populace, or most of it. There's a phrase for that.

It's not a justification, it's just a statement of fact.

But did any of Germany, Italy, or Japan refuse to surrender and be ?  Hamas refuses to surrender and be demilitarized.  Germany/Italy/Japan weren't making large demands despite being in a defeated inferior position. Nothing Hamas has said has even hinted at a disbanding and laying down of weapons.  More "give us back all our prisoners for your hostages and leave us alone".

Again, it's not justifying anything Israel is doing but it's not analogous.  Without Hamas surrendering/being disbanded, how does an Israel retreat from Gaza result in anything other than Hamas reloading with an even stronger martyrdom message?

In a perfect world without their undue aggression, Israel would still be in a difficult position with the void left in a post-Hamas Gaza.  I have no clue what they could do now beyond allowing aid as I mentioned above

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 02:50:49 PMQuestion, are you of the mind that this was Netanyahu's plan all along and 10/7 was his excuse? 

He merely seized the opportunity. If not 10/7, it would have been some other pretext. Bibi is a dictator that will do everything and anything to stay in power as the alternative is dying in jail.

Unfortuantely, though 99.9% of America refuses to face the truth, we are in the Exact. Same. Position.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 06:07:53 PMIt's not a justification, it's just a statement of fact.

But did any of Germany, Italy, or Japan refuse to surrender and be ?  Hamas refuses to surrender and be demilitarized.  Germany/Italy/Japan weren't making large demands despite being in a defeated inferior position. Nothing Hamas has said has even hinted at a disbanding and laying down of weapons.  More "give us back all our prisoners for your hostages and leave us alone".

Again, it's not justifying anything Israel is doing but it's not analogous.  Without Hamas surrendering/being disbanded, how does an Israel retreat from Gaza result in anything other than Hamas reloading with an even stronger martyrdom message?

In a perfect world without their undue aggression, Israel would still be in a difficult position with the void left in a post-Hamas Gaza.  I have no clue what they could do now beyond allowing aid as I mentioned above

I think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

The reality is that Hamas doesn't exist because a bunch of thriving young men with strong economic prospects in their safe communities have nothing better to do than sacrifice their lives in the fight against Israel. Hamas exists because the life of the average young man in Gaza is sh*t and Hamas can point to Israel - justifiably, to at least some extent - as the reason for that.
Give Gaza an economy, health and security, and Hamas is severely weakened. You may not completely be rid of them, and you wont be rid of anti-Israeli sentiment, but you might be able to provide both sides with more security. Which ought to be the goal, right?

It's fraught with peril, to be sure, but the alternative is much, much worse.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 07:07:10 PMI think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

The reality is that Hamas doesn't exist because a bunch of thriving young men with strong economic prospects in their safe communities have nothing better to do than sacrifice their lives in the fight against Israel. Hamas exists because the life of the average young man in Gaza is sh*t and Hamas can point to Israel - justifiably, to at least some extent - as the reason for that.
Give Gaza an economy, health and security, and Hamas is severely weakened. You may not completely be rid of them, and you wont be rid of anti-Israeli sentiment, but you might be able to provide both sides with more security. Which ought to be the goal, right?

It's fraught with peril, to be sure, but the alternative is much, much worse.

Their lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:23:10 PMTheir lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

I wonder how many Americans support expelling Jews and Muslims?  I bet like 35%

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 04, 2025, 08:24:48 PMI wonder how many Americans support expelling Jews and Muslims?  I bet like 35%

That could be, I dunno.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:29:57 PMThat could be, I dunno.

The future

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 04, 2025, 08:30:18 PMThe future

Repeating the past.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 04, 2025, 08:30:18 PMThe future

We've done an unusually poor job of dealing with evil ideologies and scumbags. I would have dealt with Putin and Iranian leadership/their proxies, much differently.  And from day 1.  Preventing Oct 7th was Netanyahu 's biggest failure. As I've said many times, hard power is essential with regard to evil pieces of garbage.  Unfortunately, no one seems to grasp that appeasement is a euphemism for allowing a s-show.  I would have usurped every drop of oil, in Russia and Iran,  years and years and years and years ago.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:38:55 PMWe've done an unusually poor job of dealing with evil ideologies and scumbags. I would have dealt with Putin and Iranian leadership/their proxies, much differently.  And fron day 1.  Preventing Oct 7th was Netanyahu 's biggest failure. As I've said many times, hard power is essential with regard to evil pieces of garbage.  Unfortunately, no one seems to grasp that Appeasement is a euphemism for allowing a s-show.  I would have usurped every drop of oil, in Russia and Iran,  years and years and years and years ago.

I would have nuked the entire Middle East years ago and banned religion but unfortunately, no one listened to me, either

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 04, 2025, 08:40:29 PMI would have nuked the entire Middle East years ago and banned religion but unfortunately, no one listened to me, either

There are tenets within Islam that subjugate their own people and want to restore the Caliphate.  There are many secular and non-religious Muslims that are great people.  The problem is the Jihadists and Islamists, which account for a sizeable minority, are evil and extremely problematic.  We can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:46:13 PMThere are tenets within Islam that subjugate their own people and want to restore the Caliphate.  There are many secular and non-religious Muslims that are great people.  The problem is the Jihadists and Islamists, which account for a sizeable minority, are evil and extremely problematic.  We can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

Me, too.  Nuke them and then ban religion.  Zip, boom, bang, problems solved

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:23:10 PMTheir lives are "Sht" because of Hamas.  And the Palestinians elected Hamas.  And 80% or more of Palestinians support Hamas.  And 75% of British Muslims, that are not recent immigrants, support Hamas.

I wonder what the average Gazan thought of Hamas before the Israelis started dropping bombs on their heads.
Oh ...

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 09:28:09 PMI wonder what the average Gazan thought of Hamas before the Israelis started dropping bombs on their heads.
Oh ...

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas

No fair bringing facts to a Muggsy conversation.

This information will change his min--ha, ha, who am I kidding?

The fact that Muggs brings up the "Palestinians elected Hamas" line is a testament to his hopelessness.

That election was in 2006. They were elected by less than a majority.

Furthermore, as of 2023, the median age in Gaza was just under 20 years old. That means that a vast majority of current Gazans not didn't vote for Hamas, they weren't of voting age OR not even alive at that point.

It's just another illogical line used to justify their suffering - completely immoral.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 04, 2025, 08:46:13 PMWe can either deal with reality or live in la-la-land.  I choose the former. 

Once again, unilaterally declaring what reality is. No discussion needed.  ;D

Your repeated "la la land" crap is a classic example of projection. It is where you live in your very own version of reality.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2025, 07:07:10 PMI think you're setting up a false dilemma here: Hamas or Permanent Occupation are the only options.
How about a U.S./Gulf States-backed (and Israel accepted, like it or not) Marshall Plan that creates,funds and supports a more moderate Gazan government with the ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

For my money this is the whole rub.  In a vaccuum, I would completely support Israel if they refuse to be Charlie Brown kicking the football here.  There are a lot of reasons to argue that the solution you outline is overly optimistic.  It requires international support (and enforcement against extremist elements) to stay strong, consistent, and continuous.  Gazans would need to embrace a moderate form of government with Western-style representative elements that has proven elusive elsewhere in the region.  In some sense, Israel puts their Gazan-border security in the hands of the the international coalition, and I can't blame them for being suspicious of that.  You can go back to 1945 or just look at how they fare at the UN now to see why that would be unpopular.

But Israel also haven't been good faith actors.  Netanyahu is at least partially responsible for Hamas's strength to begin with, becuase they undermined the rationality of the two state solution he opposed.  The settlements in the West Bank have been atrocious.  I think I'm in Wags's camp of being generally more pro-Israel than others criticizing them here, but their recent track record under Netanyahu essentially precludes a sensible solution so long as he is in power.

Quote from: MUBurrow on August 05, 2025, 09:09:44 AMFor my money this is the whole rub.  In a vaccuum, I would completely support Israel if they refuse to be Charlie Brown kicking the football here.  There are a lot of reasons to argue that the solution you outline is overly optimistic.  It requires international support (and enforcement against extremist elements) to stay strong, consistent, and continuous.  Gazans would need to embrace a moderate form of government with Western-style representative elements that has proven elusive elsewhere in the region.  In some sense, Israel puts their Gazan-border security in the hands of the the international coalition, and I can't blame them for being suspicious of that.  You can go back to 1945 or just look at how they fare at the UN now to see why that would be unpopular.

But Israel also haven't been good faith actors.  Netanyahu is at least partially responsible for Hamas's strength to begin with, becuase they undermined the rationality of the two state solution he opposed.  The settlements in the West Bank have been atrocious.  I think I'm in Wags's camp of being generally more pro-Israel than others criticizing them here, but their recent track record under Netanyahu essentially precludes a sensible solution so long as he is in power.

Good post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).  And they've gotten this conflict to a point that we've highlighted in previous posts that there is really no easily pragmatic solution for Israel, even if Bibi and Likud were removed from office completely by tomorrow.

The irony is the last year, Netanyahu's foreign policy aggression has been pretty successful and a net positive for Israel and the region.  Crippled Hezbollah, crippled Iran's military capabilities and established air dominance, and while Syria is huge question mark, one could argue Israel is in a strong position.  But of course the quagmire in Gaza overshadows it all.  The sooner Israel can move on from Netanyahu, and someone punts the sadistic dipshit Ben-Gvir to the moon, the better. 

Then maybe my Israeli BIL, proud of his heritage, can put Israel-related stuff back up in his pizza places without his poor Hispanic employees being accosted by dumbass zoomers from Bushwick calling them Zionist killers.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 05, 2025, 11:29:33 AMGood post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).

Ironically, many people (not you, I imagine) accept and even celebrate the suffering of everyday Gazans because of the actions of their government.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 05, 2025, 08:03:15 AMThat election was in 2006. They were elected by less than a majority.

Furthermore, as of 2023, the median age in Gaza was just under 20 years old. That means that a vast majority of current Gazans not didn't vote for Hamas, they weren't of voting age OR not even alive at that point.

Superb points.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 05, 2025, 11:29:33 AMGood post.  Netanyhu and Company have muddled the sentiment so fully with their actions and lack of tact.  They've allowed Zionist to become a negative term.  They've managed to make people turn on everyday Israelis (whose only out for many people is to be totally self hating of their country in totality, not the government).  And they've gotten this conflict to a point that we've highlighted in previous posts that there is really no easily pragmatic solution for Israel, even if Bibi and Likud were removed from office completely by tomorrow.

And radical Muslims have make Islam a negative term. Christian Nationalists have made christianity a negative term. Raping priests have made catholicism a negative term.


Religions embracing evil and corrupting their version of God is the common denominator here.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 02, 2025, 11:27:11 AMI'm already angry. 

And stupid, don't forget, you're very very stupid.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 05:39:16 PMI don't support terrorists, Sharia Law, and convert or die.  You can criticize every religion in the world, but not Islam.  A Cornell professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas attacks still has his job.  That would never happen if someone burned Korans or celebrates the IDF throttling Hamas members.  Can you imagine what the response would be if a professor said they were "exhilarated" by Gazan civilian deaths?

Members of the Israeli government say things like this every day.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 03, 2025, 06:15:17 PMThat's somewhat fair, but there are major differences and I don't worry about Buddhists.

LOL don't go to Myanmar then.

Quote from: JWags85 on August 04, 2025, 01:06:45 PMIts a clusterf*** with levels of nuance people don't always want to dig into.  I think a lot banks on what you think of what Hamas is currently at, strength wise, and what capabilities they have.

Cause while Israel is going too far and dis-proportionally harming the Palestinian civilian population, if they pull out, allow aid in, ok then what?  There is no reason for Hamas to ever lay down its arms, release the hostages, and they can proclaim a victory of spirit, resistance, and persistence. 

You can argue Israel is screwed in this situation either way and all that will happen in the future is more undue suffering for civilians caught in the middle and I don't really think that is all together untrue.   But you have to at least see how that is not very palatable for a pro-Israel contingent.

I said earlier in this thread, the biggest and most foolish mistake Israel has made in all of this is playing into Hamas' narrative and PR angle so that there is no longer any push or call for Hamas to give in, outside of voices who are immediately dismissed as genocidal Zionists.  Not talking about the pro-Hamas idiots who think 10/7 was a glorious resistance and think they are still winning.  But anyone to the right of that has folded anything related to Hamas into the horrible plight of Palestinian civilians so that anything punitive towards Hamas or potentially damaging to them moving forward is completely off the table so long as Palestinians are harmed in the process.

It's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 07, 2025, 06:47:35 AMIt's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

And for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 07, 2025, 07:24:47 AMAnd for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

I really would like to hear more details about what the prof proposed please, if you can recall them. I am not being sarcastic. I am, and have long been, in the camp that proposed "solutions" to not just Gaza but countless other wars and conflicts are immensely difficult and require a knowledge of history.

There have been some thoughtful responses by scoopers here, including opposing ones. Simplistic solutions are always available from our resident simpleton.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 07, 2025, 07:24:47 AMAnd for the Palestinian leadership as well. I had a professor at Marquette who laid out exactly why this solution was the best for the citizens of both countries, but it was the leadership that benefited from the current set up. I think he was correct.

For the life of me I can't remember this guy's name. Late 80s Poli Sci prof from Germany. I think he left by the mid 90s.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 07, 2025, 06:47:35 AMIt's almost as if Israel learned nothing from recent global history about invading and trying to occupying a territory.

The solution from the beginning (decades, not months) was an inclusive society, but that is counterproductive to the Zionist project in Israel.

Brilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:12:29 AMBrilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

If Israel was created as a secular state with equal protection for each citizen then yes, it would have been a far more peaceful situation than what is happening today.

What new Palestinian state are you referring to?  There isn't going to be one.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 07, 2025, 08:20:17 AMIf Israel was created as a secular state with equal protection for each citizen then yes, it would have been a far more peaceful situation than what is happening today.

What new Palestinian state are you referring to?  There isn't going to be one.

There are many Palestinians that work in Israel and have the same rights.  There have been Palestinians in the Knesset.  I'm referring to the la-la-land scenario you implied with the idea that Palestinian leadership wants peace and equal rights. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:43:18 AMThere are many Palestinians that work in Israel and have the same rights.  There have been Palestinians in the Knesset.  I'm referring to the la-la-land scenario you implied with the idea that Palestinian leadership wants peace abd equal rights. 

I'm sorry to tell you, that this is simply wrong.

You could look into it, but you won't.  I've provided links, and you refuse to educate yourself.  Do better.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:12:29 AMBrilliant analysis. You've solved everything. 

Oh, the irony!   ;D

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 07, 2025, 08:46:57 AMI'm sorry to tell you, that this is simply wrong.

You could look into it, but you won't.  I've provided links, and you refuse to educate yourself.  Do better.

Ooh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:12:29 AMBrilliant analysis.  If Israel wanted an "Inclusive Society" there would be no problems.  You've solved everything.  Or maybe this new Palestinian State, with some new leadership, will have a few Jews in their parliament? 

You didn't read what I wrote obviously. There would be one state - a more multi-cultural Israel.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:59:13 AMOoh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

Ah. You've decided to not even "do your own research." Pretty sad actually.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 07, 2025, 09:02:38 AMAh. You've decided to not even "do your own research." Pretty sad actually.

He doesn't use google

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:59:13 AMOoh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

Yeah, as mentioned, you're intent on being ignorant.  Better to sit down if you don't want to participate like an adult.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 07, 2025, 08:59:13 AMOoh links.  That's reassuring.  As was the front page of the NYT with an emaciated 2 year old Palestinian starving to death.  Oh...wait.  They gave a retraction on that one

They didn't retract. They added more context about a pre-existing health condition... which doesn't change the fact that the child was starving.

If you don't trust the NYT heres a list of over 100 charitable and human rights orgs that have concluded that there is mass starvation in Gaza, including some Jewish and Israeli groups:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more-than-100-aid-groups-sign-open-letter-warning-of-starvation-in-gaza

Gotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 11:05:34 AMGotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

I see it as replying and countering with absolutely no expectation that Muggsy will allow rationality to persuade him that his posts are laughably stupid and display a mind-boggling level of ignorance.  I go straight to ridicule, but I think the approach of others here is just as legitimate.

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 11:05:34 AMGotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

I'm not reasoning with Muggsy, that would be foolhardy.

But he trotted out a line that's been successfully used to try to minimize what's happening in Gaza. I'm providing a response to a specific piece of misinformation so reasonable people who see it aren't misled.

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 11:05:34 AMGotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

As a fellow five pointer, I speak Muggsy

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 07, 2025, 11:47:25 AMI'm not reasoning with Muggsy, that would be foolhardy.

But he trotted out a line that's been successfully used to try to minimize what's happening in Gaza. I'm providing a response to a specific piece of misinformation so reasonable people who see it aren't misled.

This, you can't reason with stupid most of the time but I think this discussion as a whole besides the yahoo comment section that is Muggs has been pretty good at laying out the crisis, who and why it is happening, and the pure tragedy of it all.

Speaks well to most here that there are points I disagree with but I can at least get to a spot of "I can understand why you think that way about this". Outlining detailed lines of thinking on this is important to developing the empathy I keep harping on that many in the world too much lack.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 07, 2025, 11:47:25 AMI'm not reasoning with Muggsy, that would be foolhardy.

But he trotted out a line that's been successfully used to try to minimize what's happening in Gaza. I'm providing a response to a specific piece of misinformation so reasonable people who see it aren't misled.

Wow. That's really super- duper noble. Helping save the ignorant.  Basically you are saying that Scoopers are ignorant and NEED your mansplaining.

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 01:25:38 PMWow. That's really super- duper noble. Helping save the ignorant.  Basically you are saying that Scoopers are ignorant and NEED your mansplaining.

Well...

That's a... take. I don't know about saving the ignorant or people needing anything.  I do know that I have fallen for misnformation before. Hell, I fell for a short quote and posted about it here on Scoop and 4ever of all people corrected me. Maybe that means I'm ignorant.

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 11:05:34 AMGotta love it when supposedly smart people here on Scoop try to reason with Muggsy.

#giveitarest

I am exercising my mod-given right to take a month long vacation from him.  I will check in on him in September.

Jockey is jokin

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 07, 2025, 08:05:35 AMI really would like to hear more details about what the prof proposed please, if you can recall them. I am not being sarcastic. I am, and have long been, in the camp that proposed "solutions" to not just Gaza but countless other wars and conflicts are immensely difficult and require a knowledge of history.

There have been some thoughtful responses by scoopers here, including opposing ones. Simplistic solutions are always available from our resident simpleton.

So the theory is that if both Israel and Palestinian leadership would have allowed it, that the creation of Palestinian autonomous areas within Israel would have been beneficial for everyone. Was it too pie in the sky? Maybe, but I do think it places the blame on where it should be.

Anyway...still can't remember the name of the prof.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 07, 2025, 02:00:49 PMThat's a... take. I don't know about saving the ignorant or people needing anything.  I do know that I have fallen for misnformation before. Hell, I fell for a short quote and posted about it here on Scoop and 4ever of all people corrected me. Maybe that means I'm ignorant.

Well, I do know that people love being corrected - so good luck

Quote from: The Sultan on August 07, 2025, 04:06:33 PMSo the theory is that if both Israel and Palestinian leadership would have allowed it, that the creation of Palestinian autonomous areas within Israel would have been beneficial for everyone. Was it too pie in the sky? Maybe, but I do think it places the blame on where it should be.

Anyway...still can't remember the name of the prof.

Thanks. Interesting, ballsy and requiring a willingness to risk failure with a chance at the payoff being that it just might have worked.

I am not surprised at Muggsy's references to post WWII scenarios ::) but did not expect other scoopers to draw WWII analogies to Gaza. Germany's and Japan's massive, conventional militaries, extensive industrial, economic and political infrastructure prewar were radically different, as were the post war scenarios. Hamas is basically an urban guerilla organization, and that is not only a completely different scenario, but an extremely dangerous one to deal with.   

I don't think anyone likes being corrected,  but I do think reasonable people appreciate it,  as long as its done respectfully.

Getting called out by 4Ever was embarrassing.  But he was right so I appreciated it.

Quote from: Jockey on August 07, 2025, 04:36:34 PMWell, I do know that people love being corrected - so good luck

Whether or not they enjoy it is irrelevant.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/07/palestinian-pele-suleiman-al-obeid-football-player-killed-gaza-israeli-attack

Another victim of Netanyahu war crimes

Well, if he voted for Hamas in 2006, what did he think was going to happen 19 years later?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 07, 2025, 09:36:41 AMYeah, as mentioned, you're intent on being ignorant.  Better to sit down if you don't want to participate like an adult.

All of you are in the wrong side.  And get facts from people severely biased against Israel.  The UN is essentially a puppet for Iran/Hamas and has been for many, many, many, years. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 08:31:08 AMAll of you are in the wrong side.  And get facts from people severely biased against Israel.  The UN is essentially a puppet for Iran/Hamas and has been for many, many, many, years. 

There are no good "sides" here. Stop treating war like a sporting event.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 07, 2025, 09:38:12 AMThey didn't retract. They added more context about a pre-existing health condition... which doesn't change the fact that the child was starving.

If you don't trust the NYT heres a list of over 100 charitable and human rights orgs that have concluded that there is mass starvation in Gaza, including some Jewish and Israeli groups:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more-than-100-aid-groups-sign-open-letter-warning-of-starvation-in-gaza

They're anti-Israel as is most of the world. And this obsession with "genocide" and "war crimes" is a total joke. Accusing Israel of genocide actually foments antisemitism.  It's especially egregious considering the history of the Jewish people. This is a war, they were attacked.  Has there ever been a war when war crimes didn't occur from individuals?  This happens in every war situation throughout history.  At least 1% of all people are sociopaths.  The idea that Israel is "committing genocide", and you and others believe this is the case, is flat out embarrassing.  They're not.  If they wanted to they could slaughter every civilian in Gaza. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 08:39:38 AMThey're anti-Israel as is most of the world. And this obsession with "genocide" and "war crimes" is a total joke. Accusing Israel of genocide actually foments antisemitism.  It's especially egregious considering the history of the Jewish people. This is a war, they were attacked.  Has there ever been a war when war crimes didn't occur from individuals?  This happens in every war situation throughout history.  At least 1% of all people are sociopaths.  The idea that Israel is "committing genocide", and you and others believe this is the case, is flat out embarrassing.  They're not.  If they wanted to they could slaughter every civilian in Gaza. 

You should never post again here about human suffering or animal abuse. Because when actual suffering happens, you simply don't care, and make as many excuses for those perpetuating the suffering as possible.

You're calling everyone else here hypocrites, but it's painfully obvious the biggest hypocrite here is you. 

And yes TAMU, stop being obsessed about silly little things like war crimes and genocide. 🙄🙄🙄

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 08:39:38 AMThey're anti-Israel as is most of the world. And this obsession with "genocide" and "war crimes" is a total joke. Accusing Israel of genocide actually foments antisemitism.  It's especially egregious considering the history of the Jewish people. This is a war, they were attacked.  Has there ever been a war when war crimes didn't occur from individuals?  This happens in every war situation throughout history.  At least 1% of all people are sociopaths.  The idea that Israel is "committing genocide", and you and others believe this is the case, is flat out embarrassing.  They're not.  If they wanted to they could slaughter every civilian in Gaza. 

They should quit committing war crimes then

Muggsy's total lack of self-awareness is on full display in his latest posts. "All of you are on the wrong side." Early in this thread, he posted "As usual, all of you all missed the point "even though he never made one. ::)  When I asked him what the probability was that he was right and everyone else is wrong, he replied 98%.

Then there are references to obsession(s), psychopaths, living in La La land among many other Muggsyisms. His MO is on full display-projection of his head problems onto everyone else. He has not begun with "If I was in charge..." for quite a while, but people who "think" just like Muggsy are in charge and they alone decide what reality and immutable facts are.

Why he subjects himself to non-stop solid rebuttals and ridicule is not clear. But then again, neither is his twisted little mind.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 10, 2025, 09:25:36 AMMuggsy's total lack of self-awareness is on full display in his latest posts. "All of you are on the wrong side." Early in this thread, he posted "As usual, all of you all missed the point "even though he never made one. ::)  When I asked him what the probability was that he was right and everyone else is wrong, he replied 98%.

Then there are references to obsession(s), psychopaths, living in La La land among many other Muggsyisms. His MO is on full display-projection of his head problems onto everyone else. He has not begun with "If I was in charge..." for quite a while, but people who "think" just like Muggsy are in charge and they alone decide what reality and immutable facts are.

Why he subjects himself to non-stop solid rebuttals and ridicule is not clear. But then again, neither is his twisted little mind.

Because he righteously believes he is right and will accept no evidence to suggest otherwise. He also lives in a world where no shades of gray exist, even though the world simply isn't black and white. 

Quote from: The Sultan on August 10, 2025, 09:27:59 AMBecause he righteously believes he is right and will accept no evidence to suggest otherwise. He also lives in a world where no shades of gray exist, even though the world simply isn't black and white. 

His lack of outrage over Ukraine's refusal to come to heel is telling

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 10, 2025, 09:42:06 AMHis lack of outrage over Ukraine's refusal to come to heel is telling

Speaking of which ... how about peace "negotiations" in which one of the two sides is being excluded from the negotiations?

"Give Russia the land it stole in the criminal war that its dirtbag dictator launched" doesn't seem like much of a negotiation.

Quote from: MU82 on August 10, 2025, 02:03:16 PMSpeaking of which ... how about peace "negotiations" in which one of the two sides is being excluded from the negotiations?

"Give Russia the land it stole in the criminal war that its dirtbag dictator launched" doesn't seem like much of a negotiation.

People forget Russia gave us the planes we used at Lexington

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 10, 2025, 02:08:35 PMPeople forget Russia gave us the planes we used at Lexington

I just hope that after we spend millions of taxpayer money to reinstate statues of Confederate traitors, we also put a statue of Putin in the new White House ballroom.

Quote from: The Sultan on August 10, 2025, 08:36:57 AMThere are no good "sides" here. Stop treating war like a sporting event.

Wow participation award culture strikes again, smh.

Unfortunately Muggsy's delusional rambling seemingly reflects similarly to those making the policy decisions to arm and enable ethnically cleansing millions.

The helplessness of my tax dollars going towards enabling these events is incredibly frustrating and depressing.

Our actions are polling insanely badly, but public opinion doesn't change policy much anymore it would seem.

Quote from: MU82 on August 10, 2025, 02:12:41 PMI just hope that after we spend millions of taxpayer money to reinstate statues of Confederate traitors, we also put a statue of Putin in the new White House ballroom.

People act like fighting to keep slavery was bad.  A lot of slaves were introduced to Jesus.  It wasn't as bad as the woke mob will lead you to believe

Since we are in Alaska, how about this?  Back out of Ukraine and we will return Alaska.

Quote from: tower912 on August 10, 2025, 02:33:04 PMSince we are in Alaska, how about this?  Back out of Ukraine and we will return Alaska.

Nah. But Muggsy's idea of assassinating Putin now has a chance to succeed. Seal Team 6 could harpoon him.

 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 10, 2025, 02:56:19 PMNah. But Muggsy's idea of assassinating Putin now has a chance to succeed. Seal Team 6 could harpoon him.

 

Revenge by the seals for centuries of mistreatment.   Solid.

Quote from: tower912 on August 10, 2025, 03:03:10 PMRevenge by the seals for centuries of mistreatment.   Solid.

Listen, it's not infeasible and that includes no hyperbole.

Send in a manatee with a vest strapped with C4. Have them be useful for once in their miserable existence

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 10, 2025, 05:37:37 PMSend in a manatee with a vest strapped with C4. Have them be useful for once in their miserable existence

Stop protecting and involving the tremendous manatee population. 

Nm.

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 05:38:39 PMStop protecting and involving the tremendous manatee population. 

Manatees are incredibly stupid and pointless

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 05:38:39 PMStop protecting and involving the tremendous manatee population. 

There's like 13k manatees. We have plenty of them to spare to 5 point plan whatever leaders we hate/people who don't worship supply side Jesus like we do.

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 10, 2025, 05:46:21 PMThere's like 13k manatees. We have plenty of them to spare to 5 point plan whatever leaders we hate/people who don't worship supply side Jesus like we do.

We do not.  Stop attacking them and their greatness.  They have no vices and are exemplary members of the animal kingdom.

Wack a Muggsy is a fun game to play on a summer Sunday evening. No need to harm magnificent moles.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 10, 2025, 05:52:07 PMWack a Muggsy is a fun game to play on a summer Sunday evening.

Give me your best shot.  I'm bulletproof.  :)

Unlike an ambulance trying to rescue children in Gaza

Quote from: MuggsyB on August 10, 2025, 05:48:47 PMWe do not.  Stop attacking them and their greatness.  They have no vices and are exemplary members of the animal kingdom.

Muggsy 🤝 The 1893 Florida state government = wanting the indigenous people of coastal land deprived of food sources

More war crimes by Netanyahu

https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3lw3dmx5wcc2l

Quote from: Shaka Shart on August 10, 2025, 06:01:04 PMUnlike an ambulance trying to rescue children in Gaza

Blame Hamas.  Scum of the earth. 

You know, in 1945 America should just have starved the entire population of Germany, then removed whoever survived and just annexed the country.

Because blame the Nazis. Scum of the earth.

Bibi is now brazenly killing Middle Eastern journalists. Bragging about it and accusing them of being Hamas agents - of course without offering a shred of evidence.

He's getting more and more like Hitler, though not as good a painter.

Quote from: MU82 on August 11, 2025, 10:20:42 AMBibi is now brazenly killing Middle Eastern journalists. Bragging about it and accusing them of being Hamas agents - of course without offering a shred of evidence.

He's getting more and more like Hitler, though not as good a painter.

He's a war criminal and pure scum

Quote from: tower912 on August 10, 2025, 02:33:04 PMSince we are in Alaska, how about this?  Back out of Ukraine and we will return Alaska.

Apparently, the big meet up is taking place in Russia.

Quote from: tower912 on August 11, 2025, 06:43:45 PMApparently, the big meet up is taking place in Russia.

Putin and Trump read scoop and liked your solution, so yes-the meeting is in Russia. Kudos to you Tower. You might be nominated for the Nobel Peace prize since it was your idea.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 11, 2025, 08:12:34 PMPutin and Trump read scoop and liked your solution, so yes-the meeting is in Russia. Kudos to you Tower. You might be nominated for the Nobel Peace prize since it was your idea.

One of those two can't read

Quote from: tower912 on August 11, 2025, 06:43:45 PMApparently, the big meet up is taking place in Russia.

Yep, Russia - that's what was said at the press conference ... along with a long diatribe against roadway medians.

Netanyahu, war criminal and genocide activist, has killed more journalists in the last 18 months than were killed in WWI, WWII and Vietnam combined.  When will he be arrested and tried for his crimes against humanity?

 ?-(

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/16/nevada-arrest-israeli-official

Excerpts from a story in the Irish Times:

The US state department said it would stop issuing visas to children from Gaza in desperate need of medical care after an online pressure campaign led by Laura Loomer, a far-right influencer and "proud Islamophobe".

After misrepresenting the children, including amputees arriving to get prosthetic legs, as "Islamic invaders from an Islamic terror hot zone", she demanded to know "who at the US state department under @marcorubio signed off on the visas for Palestinians from a Hamas hot zone".

"Why would anyone at the state department give visas to individuals who live in Gaza, which is run by Hamas?" Ms Loomer wrote, before falsely stating that "95 per cent of Gazans voted for Hamas".

Hamas got 44 per cent of party list votes in the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections across Gaza and the West Bank and lost three of the five districts in Gaza to the secular Fatah party. There has been no election since.

After the visa programme was halted, Ms Loomer declared victory. "This is fantastic news," she wrote in response to the state department announcement. "Hopefully all Gazans will be added to President Trump's travel ban. There are doctors in other countries. The US is not the world's hospital!"

In a separate story, I learned that the children would be sent to Egypt after their medical treatments.

Interesting that the last election was 2006 and Hamas did not receive a majority. Yet we are expected to accept as an immutable fact the reality that Hamas has overwhelming support 19 years later. 

I'm 100% confident that if it was any other nation besides Israel doing to another country what Israel is doing to Gaza, that Muggsy would be touting his 5-point plan  to introduce that country and its leadership to darkness.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 17, 2025, 09:49:26 AMExcerpts from a story in the Irish Times:

The US state department said it would stop issuing visas to children from Gaza in desperate need of medical care after an online pressure campaign led by Laura Loomer, a far-right influencer and "proud Islamophobe".

After misrepresenting the children, including amputees arriving to get prosthetic legs, as "Islamic invaders from an Islamic terror hot zone", she demanded to know "who at the US state department under @marcorubio signed off on the visas for Palestinians from a Hamas hot zone".

"Why would anyone at the state department give visas to individuals who live in Gaza, which is run by Hamas?" Ms Loomer wrote, before falsely stating that "95 per cent of Gazans voted for Hamas".

Hamas got 44 per cent of party list votes in the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections across Gaza and the West Bank and lost three of the five districts in Gaza to the secular Fatah party. There has been no election since.

After the visa programme was halted, Ms Loomer declared victory. "This is fantastic news," she wrote in response to the state department announcement. "Hopefully all Gazans will be added to President Trump's travel ban. There are doctors in other countries. The US is not the world's hospital!"

In a separate story, I learned that the children would be sent to Egypt after their medical treatments.

Interesting that the last election was 2006 and Hamas did not receive a majority. Yet we are expected to accept as an immutable fact the reality that Hamas has overwhelming support 19 years later. 

Another proud member of the "all lives matter" brigade.

Look at all of these anti-semites.

https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1957129608991502377?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 17, 2025, 09:49:26 AMExcerpts from a story in the Irish Times:

The US state department said it would stop issuing visas to children from Gaza in desperate need of medical care after an online pressure campaign led by Laura Loomer, a far-right influencer and "proud Islamophobe".

U.S. policy is being set Laura Loomer. This belongs in the Daily Dose of Doom thread.

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 17, 2025, 03:49:53 PMU.S. policy is being set Laura Loomer. This belongs in the Daily Dose of Doom thread.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXpLYKbaAAABjXa.jpg)

https://bsky.app/profile/drewharwell.com/post/3lwnc4sox7k2i

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 17, 2025, 03:49:53 PMU.S. policy is being set Laura Loomer. This belongs in the Daily Dose of Doom thread.

I hope I live long enough to see what respected historians will be saying about this era 2-3 decades from now.

History is written by the winners.  And history is in books.  Who writes the history and whether or not there will be books isn't clear.

Muggsy has gone AWOL from this thread for 8 days now. The news story I posted challenges his claim that Hamas has widespread support among the Gazans. Even though the writer referred to results from the last election 19 years ago, that's still a lot more evidence than Muggsy has ever provided to support his claims. Muggsy likes to put the Gazans and Hamas in a Doddsian blender. Accepting that as "reality", he can easily justify Israel's recent attacks. 

Muggsy has started threads with "If I was in charge..." even though he is not and never will be, but I believe Loomer is his soul mate. Does he agree with Loomer's statements, especially those barring Gazan kids from being brought to the US to be fitted with prosthetics?

Netanyahu continues to commit war crimes:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-nasser-hospital-strike-1.7616802

The war criminal Bibi is getting good at killing journalists, including those from the AP and Reuters. He already excelled at killing and starving children.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 25, 2025, 08:13:04 AMNetanyahu continues to commit war crimes:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-nasser-hospital-strike-1.7616802

We seem to be moving forward, at least. Before, they'd claim Hamas blew up the hospital

Ran on a famine-ly values platform.