It appears that MU is going to put 0 (Markus), 22 (Jerel), and ?? (Crean) (03?) into the rafters this year. Discuss.
https://x.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1937556331117900286
Good. Remember the names. Leave the numbers for future use.
As I look more closely, I see that they reference, "Jersey Retirement" for Markus and Jerel, but state, "Banner Recognition" for Crean. Not entirely sure what that will look like for TC - likely something along the lines of what they have for Al and Hank Raymonds.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 24, 2025, 12:08:36 PMAs I look more closely, I see that they reference, "Jersey Retirement" for Markus and Jerel, but state, "Banner Recognition" for Crean. Not entirely sure what that will look like for TC - likely something along the lines of what they have for Al and Hank Raymonds.
It looks like this
(https://i.redd.it/txhm333otax11.png)
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 24, 2025, 12:08:36 PMAs I look more closely, I see that they reference, "Jersey Retirement" for Markus and Jerel, but state, "Banner Recognition" for Crean. Not entirely sure what that will look like for TC - likely something along the lines of what they have for Al and Hank Raymonds.
Image of a guy in a dobok kicking a soccer ball
Markus's jersey should've been raised right from the easel it sat on during his Senior Day.
Now do 11.
Again.
Boomers aghast
I like the idea of separating into jersey retirement and banner recognition.
In an old post I suggested splitting into numbers and jerseys. Just rename my categories below.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on October 18, 2024, 10:21:03 AMI wouldn't mind a two-tier system where a select few have the number retired and the rest have their jerseys retired to honor more of that second tier of people. I'd consider something along the lines of:
Number: Wade (3), Lee (15), Chones (22), Thompson (24), Ellis (31), McGuire (77)
Jersey: Howard (0), Miller (10), Kolek/Apollo (11), Meminger (14), Lucas (20), McNeal (22), Doc (31), Crowder/Lazar (32), Diener/McIlvaine/Smith (34), Weingart (38), Tatum (43), Raymonds (HANK)
They should do it for Terry Rand. All American that lead Marquette to its first tournament appearance (E8) and its first NIT. We retired Kojis' jersey for less
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 24, 2025, 12:20:24 PMThey should do it for Terry Rand. All American that lead Marquette to its first tournament appearance (E8) and its first NIT. We retired Kojis' jersey for less
Kojis is better than any player that has played at Marquette since 1978
Very nice to see this. Hope all three ceremonies don't get crammed into one game.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 24, 2025, 12:08:36 PMAs I look more closely, I see that they reference, "Jersey Retirement" for Markus and Jerel, but state, "Banner Recognition" for Crean. Not entirely sure what that will look like for TC - likely something along the lines of what they have for Al and Hank Raymonds.
People in inflatable sumo wrester suits on 4-wheel RVs.
Do Crean's during the Maryland game.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 24, 2025, 12:05:11 PMIt appears that MU is going to put 0 (Markus), 22 (Jerel), and ?? (Crean) (03?) into the rafters this year. Discuss.
https://x.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1937556331117900286
Hauser's writing a letter to the university requesting they not retire Markus' number.
Great to see........happy for all 3 of them.
If there's one thing Tom Crean loved, it was hanging banners. Very apropo.
Edit: hanging, not happening (stupid autocorrect!)
A well deserved recognition for each. Hope that each gets their own day/celebration though.
What players do we think show up to celebrate Crean? Wade, Deiner, Novak, Chapman, Fitzgerald sure. But do guys like McNeal Wes Dom Lazar and Cubillion celebrate him or feel abandoned by him?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 24, 2025, 01:05:48 PMWhat players do we think show up to celebrate Crean? Wade, Deiner, Novak, Chapman, Fitzgerald sure. But do guys like McNeal Wes Dom Lazar and Cubillion celebrate him or feel abandoned by him?
I think fences were mended long ago with most if not all of those guys.
Quote from: MuMark on June 24, 2025, 01:09:42 PMI think fences were mended long ago with most if not all of those guys.
Idk Lazar might still feel ghosted
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 24, 2025, 01:05:48 PMWhat players do we think show up to celebrate Crean? Wade, Deiner, Novak, Chapman, Fitzgerald sure. But do guys like McNeal Wes Dom Lazar and Cubillion celebrate him or feel abandoned by him?
Those guys are nearly 40. I would hope they would have greater perspective on life than still being pissed that their college coach left for a different job.
Since Marquette has decided to retire more jerseys, I'm happy for Coach Crean, Jeral and Markus. My position on Markus is well known to regular Scoop readers so, suffice to say, it's well documented.
Perhaps with the new retirements, it shows a continuation of the line from Kojis to McGuire to Rivers and Wade to the recent past and today. I'm looking forward to Tyler and Oso's future jersey retirement too.
Of the three banners, I'm most pleased about Coach Crean. I've mellowed over the years on Coach. Time tends to do that. While I know he left Marquette under less than ideal circumstances (though far better than the Buzzard), he recruited arguably the greatest Warrior of all time in DWade.
For a shining moment, Coach Crean gave us a taste of what life used to be like at Marquette. He proved to us that with the combination of the right coaching and talent, we could again be a Top 5 team in the country. Had Coach Crean stayed, I believe he could have sustained a level of excellence to which we desperately wanted at Marquette.
Yes, Coach Crean was transformative. Coach Buzzard built off that transformation. That's why Coach Crean belongs in the rafters.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on June 24, 2025, 12:49:00 PMA well deserved recognition for each. Hope that each gets their own day/celebration though.
They could have Crean's during the (diet) Pepsi Challenge.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 24, 2025, 01:12:18 PMThose guys are nearly 40. I would hope they would have greater perspective on life than still being pissed that their college coach left for a different job.
Also, many were present when Crean was inducted into the M Club Hall of Fame.
Quote from: We R Final Four on June 24, 2025, 01:23:17 PMThey could have Crean's during the (diet) Pepsi Challenge.
Diet Pepsi challenge? I'm in.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 24, 2025, 01:05:48 PMWhat players do we think show up to celebrate Crean? Wade, Deiner, Novak, Chapman, Fitzgerald sure. But do guys like McNeal Wes Dom Lazar and Cubillion celebrate him or feel abandoned by him?
Was it feeling "abandoned" or more blindsided when John Harbaugh went on Bloomington radio and said it was happening before Crean could tell the players? IIRC (and it's been a long time) Wes confronted Crean about how they found out, which wasn't Crean's intent and TC was pissed off at his BIL for leaking it.
I was dumped by an ex girlfriend 35 years ago. I am still bitter about how it went down.
Yup, sounds about the same.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 24, 2025, 01:12:18 PMThose guys are nearly 40. I would hope they would have greater perspective on life than still being pissed that their college coach left for a different job.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone, players or fans, being upset that he left for IU.
I do remember a lot of pissed people about
the way he left.
I was pissed about how it went down, but it was not unforgivable and I moved on fairly quickly.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on June 24, 2025, 01:28:45 PMI could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone, players or fans, being upset that he left for IU.
I do remember a lot of pissed people about the way he left.
I was pissed about how it went down, but it was not unforgivable and I moved on fairly quickly.
I moved on about a month after Crean's inevitable firing. Was rooting for him at Georgia, but not Indiana.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on June 24, 2025, 01:28:45 PMI could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone, players or fans, being upset that he left for IU.
I do remember a lot of pissed people about the way he left.
I was pissed about how it went down, but it was not unforgivable and I moved on fairly quickly.
I read somewhere that his BIL publicly spoke about the new position before Crean had a chance to tell the team personally, but whether or not this is true, I do not know.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on June 24, 2025, 02:02:42 PMI read somewhere that his BIL publicly spoke about the new position before Crean had a chance to tell the team personally, but whether or not this is true, I do not know.
That's what happened: John Harbaugh dropped it during an interview on an interview with a Bloomington or Indy station.
I don't think that this is very well thought through. We had 3 drafted seniors, on top 5-10 teams, who now need jersey retirements before 2028 and 2029.
When are they retiring John "Magic" Dawson's jersey
Quote from: jfp61 on June 24, 2025, 02:38:37 PMI don't think that this is very well thought through. We had 3 drafted seniors, on top 5-10 teams, who now need jersey retirements before 2028 and 2029.
Why 3? I love Oso, but if he's getting one then so should Lazar, Dominic James, Travis Diener, Brian Wardle, Tony Smith, Wes Matthews, DJO, Steve Novak, Aaron Hutchins, Cordell Henry, Jim McIlvaine, Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder (he actually should) etc. And why before 2028 and 2029?
Quote from: jfp61 on June 24, 2025, 02:38:37 PMI don't think that this is very well thought through. We had 3 drafted seniors, on top 5-10 teams, who now need jersey retirements before 2028 and 2029.
Are you suggesting that Marquette is going to retire Oso's and OMP's numbers? Because I can't see why for either. McNeal was at least the program's leading scorer at one point.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 24, 2025, 12:19:53 PMBoomers aghast
Yup. 0 Conference Titles, 0 conference tournament titles, 0 conference tournament finals (1 Big East tournament win against a team with a .500 or better conference record) two NCAA tournament wins between the two players out of 8 seasons. Three top 25 AP finishes (all Jerel), and they were 20, 23 and 25. In both cases we had better four year stretches than any time they were here beginning the second season after they left. If these guys are all-time MU greats, why didn't they win more?
Seriously, I am happy for all getting inducted. Markus was a first team All-American, our all-time leading scorer and one of the top 20 Division I scorers of all time. He certainly deserves it. Jerel is our second leading all time scorer and a great defender.
One other point is that although Jerel scored a lot more points, I really don't think he was better than James or Matthews while they were here. If he was going to go in, I would have liked to see all three of them get their jerseys retired together. I guess since jersey digits higher than 5 are now allowed, we can retire more numbers without running out.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 24, 2025, 03:07:00 PMWhy 3? I love Oso, but if he's getting one then so should Lazar, Dominic James, Travis Diener, Brian Wardle, Tony Smith, Wes Matthews, DJO, Steve Novak, Aaron Hutchins, Cordell Henry, Jim McIlvaine, Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder (he actually should) etc. And why before 2028 and 2029?
My point is markus feels expedited.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 24, 2025, 01:05:48 PMWhat players do we think show up to celebrate Crean? Wade, Deiner, Novak, Chapman, Fitzgerald sure. But do guys like McNeal Wes Dom Lazar and Cubillion celebrate him or feel abandoned by him?
I spoke with Jerel at a Marquette NYC Circles event during the BET 2024. Mike Broeker has been his soundboard for a very long time and the university means a lot to him. I'd be very surprised if he no showed.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 24, 2025, 03:21:46 PMYup. 0 Conference Titles, 0 conference tournament titles, 0 conference tournament finals (1 Big East tournament win against a team with a .500 or better conference record) two NCAA tournament wins between the two players out of 8 seasons. Three top 25 AP finishes (all Jerel), and they were 20, 23 and 25. In both cases we had better four year stretches than any time they were here beginning the second season after they left. If these guys are all-time MU greats, why didn't they win more?
Seriously, I am happy for all getting inducted. Markus was a first team All-American, our all-time leading scorer and one of the top 20 Division I scorers of all time. He certainly deserves it. Jerel is our second leading all time scorer and a great defender.
One other point is that although Jerel scored a lot more points, I really don't think he was better than James or Matthews while they were here. If he was going to go in, I would have liked to see all three of them get their jerseys retired together. I guess since jersey digits higher than 5 are now allowed, we can retire more numbers without running out.
The jerseys are being retired not the numbers. Markus and Jerel had stellar careers, so they are deserving. As one of the original boomers, I am not aghast at TC being honored. He brought the program back after Deane took it down to Krunti Hester level, recruited DWade, was only the 2nd MU coach to get to the F4 and was instrumental in MU successfully getting The Al funded and built while helping getting MU in position to get into the BE.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 24, 2025, 03:21:46 PMYup. 0 Conference Titles, 0 conference tournament titles, 0 conference tournament finals (1 Big East tournament win against a team with a .500 or better conference record) two NCAA tournament wins between the two players out of 8 seasons. Three top 25 AP finishes (all Jerel), and they were 20, 23 and 25. In both cases we had better four year stretches than any time they were here beginning the second season after they left. If these guys are all-time MU greats, why didn't they win more?
Seriously, I am happy for all getting inducted. Markus was a first team All-American, our all-time leading scorer and one of the top 20 Division I scorers of all time. He certainly deserves it. Jerel is our second leading all time scorer and a great defender.
One other point is that although Jerel scored a lot more points, I really don't think he was better than James or Matthews while they were here. If he was going to go in, I would have liked to see all three of them get their jerseys retired together. I guess since jersey digits higher than 5 are now allowed, we can retire more numbers without running out.
Thank you
Not a fan of this, but I'll survive. If you were starting an all-time great MU team, where would you draft Markus?
Quote from: avid1010 on June 24, 2025, 04:16:43 PMNot a fan of this, but I'll survive. If you were starting an all-time great MU team, where would you draft Markus?
Where would I draft the guy who shot 43% from 3 on 8 attempts per game for his career in today's game? A 2 time consensus All American? A Big East Player of the Year? The leading scorer in the history of the Big East (think about that)? One who would've had at least 2 more games to add to that total had COVID not shut the season down? Pretty dang high.
All time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer. Pretty high.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 24, 2025, 04:16:43 PMNot a fan of this, but I'll survive. If you were starting an all-time great MU team, where would you draft Markus?
What???
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 24, 2025, 03:21:46 PMYup. 0 Conference Titles, 0 conference tournament titles, 0 conference tournament finals (1 Big East tournament win against a team with a .500 or better conference record) two NCAA tournament wins between the two players out of 8 seasons. Three top 25 AP finishes (all Jerel), and they were 20, 23 and 25. In both cases we had better four year stretches than any time they were here beginning the second season after they left. If these guys are all-time MU greats, why didn't they win more?
Seriously, I am happy for all getting inducted. Markus was a first team All-American, our all-time leading scorer and one of the top 20 Division I scorers of all time. He certainly deserves it. Jerel is our second leading all time scorer and a great defender.
One other point is that although Jerel scored a lot more points, I really don't think he was better than James or Matthews while they were here. If he was going to go in, I would have liked to see all three of them get their jerseys retired together. I guess since jersey digits higher than 5 are now allowed, we can retire more numbers without running out.
Travis and Tony Miller should be raised up there first.
I guess the rafters are for all time really goods now.
I would take Markus over either. Maybe not Jerel.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 24, 2025, 05:40:03 PMTravis and Tony Miller should be raised up there first.
I guess the rafters are for all time really goods now.
I would take Markus over both. Tony Miller?
Quote from: The Sultan on June 24, 2025, 06:00:52 PMI would take Markus over both. Tony Miller?
Our all time assist leader, that record will never be broken. 8th most in NCAA history and he played in fewer games that all of those ahead of him). Also led us to the Sweet 16 and out of the basketball wilderness.
Travis would have broken George's all-time scoring record if he hadn't gotten injured and missed the final 8 (and possibly more) games of the season.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 24, 2025, 07:10:58 PMOur all time assist leader, that record will never be broken. 8th most in NCAA history and he played in fewer games that all of those ahead of him). Also led us to the Sweet 16 and out of the basketball wilderness.
Travis would have broken George's all-time scoring record if he hadn't gotten injured and missed the final 8 (and possibly more) games of the season. He had some decent tourney success too
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 24, 2025, 07:10:58 PMOur all time assist leader, that record will never be broken. 8th most in NCAA history and he played in fewer games that all of those ahead of him). Also led us to the Sweet 16 and out of the basketball wilderness.
Travis would have broken George's all-time scoring record if he hadn't gotten injured and missed the final 8 (and possibly more) games of the season.
Yes, we should retire the number of the three time second team all Great Midwest, Tony Miller before we retire the number of a consensus all American, all time Big East leading scorer, Markus Howard.
Look, I love Miller. But he was a limited scoring point guard whose legend is bigger in a certain era of Marquette fandom out of nostalgia more than anything else.
Let's retire every jersey so as to be inclusive
Congrats to all 3, their contributions to Marquette basketball are everlasting.
Imagine the offensive firepower if you drafted a team of
TyKo at the 1
Markus at the 2
Wade at the 3
Novak at the 4
Crowder at the 5
Tyler could get 25 assists per game on that team
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 24, 2025, 08:26:40 PMLet's retire every jersey so as to be inclusive
Your pickleball jersey should go in the rafters of every sports arena in the world.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 24, 2025, 04:31:02 PMWhere would I draft the guy who shot 43% from 3 on 8 attempts per game for his career in today's game? A 2 time consensus All American? A Big East Player of the Year? The leading scorer in the history of the Big East (think about that)? One who would've had at least 2 more games to add to that total had COVID not shut the season down? Pretty dang high.
Before Kolek? Diener? Miller? Kam?
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 06:34:07 AMBefore Kolek? Diener? Miller? Kam?
How did Diener's teams do without Dwade?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2025, 07:15:28 AMHow did Diener's teams do without Dwade?
I mean his junior year was bad but while he played during his senior year they were 14-4 and cracked the top 25.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2025, 07:15:28 AMHow did Diener's teams do without Dwade?
Agreed, but Wade has also said they only make the FF because of Diener. I don't think many people question who was more of a "winner" between Diener and Howard. Diener certainly had more NBA success. I understand that isn't the criteria for a jersey in the rafters, but I just never appreciated Markus' feel for the game. I felt the same way about McNeal to an extent as well. I would argue that Mathews ultimately did more to help MU win games.
Without doubt I'm taking Diener over Howard if I'm picking a team.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 06:34:07 AMBefore Kolek? Diener? Miller? Kam?
Before Kolek? Probably not.
Kam? absolutely. I love Kam and he'll get his but Markus lead a much worse group to a pretty on par season with better production and 100x the defensive attention than Kam was getting his last year.
Diener and Miller? I'll defer to someone who was around but sounds like a for sure on Miller.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 25, 2025, 07:54:07 AMBefore Kolek? Probably not.
Kam? absolutely. I love Kam and he'll get his but Markus lead a much worse group to a pretty on par season with better production and 100x the defensive attention than Kam was getting his last year.
Diener and Miller? I'll defer to someone who was around but sounds like a for sure on Miller.
And they are 100% wrong on Miller. I loved the guy, but if you put Markus Howard on those teams, they are instantly better. Not a question at all. People irrationally love "pure" point guards like Miller, but really all that means is he couldn't shoot.
Picking Travis or Tyler ahead of Markus is a defendable position. (I would say Tyler for sure...Travis and Markus is a toss up.) But Tony Miller? That's all nostalgia talking.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 08:02:51 AMAnd they are 100% wrong on Miller. I loved the guy, but if you put Markus Howard on those teams, they are instantly better. Not a question at all. People irrationally love "pure" point guards like Miller, but really all that means is he couldn't shoot.
Picking Travis or Tyler ahead of Markus is a defendable position. (I would say Tyler for sure...Travis and Markus is a toss up.) But Tony Miller? That's all nostalgia talking.
Big Tony Miller fan. Markus was clearly better.
Honestly, Markus greatest flaw was he didn't have the opportunity to play with the Hausers his senior year. I understand all the locker room issues but let's pretend they don't exist. That's a top-5 his senior year. And no, let's not turn this into another Wojo/Hauser/Markus thread.
Markus didn't play longer in the NBA because of his size. He absolutely maximized his talent. No problem with anyone taking Travis or Tyler over him. But dismissing Markus as not one of the all-time greats is stupid.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 25, 2025, 07:54:07 AMI love Kam and he'll get his but Markus lead a much worse group to a pretty on par season with better production and 100x the defensive attention than Kam was getting his last year.
Sam Hauser is still a pro. Who is the second pro playing with Kam?
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 09:39:39 AMSam Hauser is still a pro. Who is the second pro playing with Kam?
Quote from: wadesworld on June 24, 2025, 12:13:07 PMMarkus's jersey should've been raised right from the easel it sat on during his Senior Day.
No tourney wins
No Big East titles
No BET championships
No rafters
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on June 25, 2025, 09:41:42 AMNo tourney wins
No Big East titles
No BET championships
No rafters
It's happening this year. You'll be able to see it live.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 06:34:07 AMBefore Kolek? Diener? Miller? Kam?
No, depends on the makeup of the team, yes, yes
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 09:39:39 AMSam Hauser is still a pro. Who is the second pro playing with Kam?
Sam Hauser was 100% correct to get the hell out of town...
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:12:10 AMSam Hauser was 100% correct to get the hell out of town...
*Cracks knuckles*
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 09:39:39 AMSam Hauser is still a pro. Who is the second pro playing with Kam?
Maybe the use of "his last year" should've been "their last years" but I feel like the point of the comparison being their senior years was still relatively obvious.
As far as what pros played with Kam his junior years I suggest you look up the rosters of the knicks and suns
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:12:10 AMSam Hauser was 100% correct to get the hell out of town...
Boomers, "millennials are soft and don't ever bite the bullet and deal with adversity"
Every boomer on Sam "he was right to leave Markus and Wojo because he was unhappy!"
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 25, 2025, 09:52:01 AMNo, depends on the makeup of the team, yes, yes
Howard over Diener in any situation is a travesty.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 25, 2025, 10:17:32 AMBoomers, "millennials are soft and don't ever bite the bullet and deal with adversity"
Every boomer on Sam "he was right to leave Markus and Wojo because he was unhappy!"
I'm 40. I question the brains of anyone that agreed to play for Wojo. I wouldn't have wanted to play with Howard.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:19:45 AMI'm 40. I question the brains of anyone that agreed to play for Wojo. I wouldn't have wanted to play with Howard.
The Hausers agreed to play for Wojo. One played with Howard for 3 years and even let him live with him. They must be dumb.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:17:59 AMHoward over Diener in any situation is a travesty.
Not really. If you have Kolek on the team, I would much prefer Howard playing off the bal over Deiner. But if you don't have a point guard of that quality, I would take Travis.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2025, 10:26:14 AMThe Hausers agreed to play for Wojo. One played with Howard for 3 years and even let him live with him. They must be dumb.
I think they were 100% correct to leave, and I wouldn't have wanted my kid to play for Wojo or with Howard. I would feel the exact opposite on Shaka, Diener, Kolek, Kam, Miller, Smith, etc.
In fairness, I have no idea what Howard would have looked like in Shaka's system, and I'm sure none of this would be happening without Shaka's approval.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 10:27:53 AMNot really. If you have Kolek on the team, I would much prefer Howard playing off the bal over Deiner. But if you don't have a point guard of that quality, I would take Travis.
I would love to see TD and TK on the same team.
Anybody can leave for any reason as we see every day.
I will start a team with the all time leading scorer in Big East history every day.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 10:41:19 AMAnybody can leave for any reason as we see every day.
I will start a team with the all time leading scorer in Big East history every day.
Basketball isn't about scoring
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 10:41:19 AMAnybody can leave for any reason as we see every day.
I will start a team with the all time leading scorer in Big East history every day.
I would consider winning in my criteria.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:48:37 AMI would consider winning in my criteria.
Again, it's strange that you would place the accomplishments of a team solely on one individual who makes up that team. (Not to mention that team did a fair bit of winning.)
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 10:50:07 AMAgain, it's strange that you would place the accomplishments of a team solely on one individual who makes up that team. (Not to mention that team did a fair bit of winning.)
I give plenty of credit to Sam for their winning...it didn't go well without him.
To get NIT-picky, how successful were the MU teams that Travis led without Wade? With another NBA player by his side?
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:55:34 AMI give plenty of credit to Sam for their winning...it didn't go well without him.
So Sam gets all the credit, but Markus gets all the blame. Gotcha.
(Marquette was going to be in the 2020 tournament without Sam by the way.)
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 10:55:54 AMTo get NIT-picky, how successful were the MU teams that Travis led without Wade? With another NBA player by his side?
That's different.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 10:55:54 AMTo get NIT-picky, how successful were the MU teams that Travis led without Wade? With another NBA player by his side?
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 10:55:54 AMTo get NIT-picky, how successful were the MU teams that Travis led without Wade? With another NBA player by his side?
I get that...though the NBA was clear as to which player it preferred.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 10:58:01 AMThat's different.
Far enough removed for the sepia to kick in.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 11:07:01 AMI get that...though the NBA was clear as to which player it preferred.
Irrelevant to their time at MU. And, a different time. How many sub 6 ft players are currently in the league?
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 11:07:01 AMI get that...though the NBA was clear as to which player it preferred.
Wow, the NBA favored a 6'7" player over a 5'10" one? Amazing!
Oh, avid meant Hauser. Mea culpa. I thought he was referring to the NBA preferring Diener.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 11:24:52 AMOh, avid meant Hauser. Mea culpa. I thought he was referring to the NBA preferring Diener.
Oh I think you are right. Sorry. Travis was a better point guard than Markus, which is why he stuck in the NBA.
As an NBA starter... Markus 20 ppg with an eFG% of more than 71%.
All those career games, yet Travis couldn't match Markus' game high in points.
#M2N
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 11:07:01 AMI get that...though the NBA was clear as to which player it preferred.
So let me see if I get your logic
If Markus wins with sam then credit to Sam.
If Travis wins with Wade then credit to Travis.
If Markus wins 20 games leading a tournament team in a major league without any real help while Travis wins 19 leading a NIT team in a mid major league, with a future 2nd rounder teammate then default to tenure in a different league that doesn't having any baring on college basketball?
I mean defaulting to nba career we should put Juan and Jamal above Markus as well.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:19:45 AMI'm 40. I question the brains of anyone that agreed to play for Wojo. I wouldn't have wanted to play with Howard.
That'd include Justin, Oso, Kam and Stevie and the hausers.
(Horshack yelling ooh,ooh) here is a fun, completely irrelevant comparison. The year after Diener left, a bunch of freshmen took MU to the tournament. The year after Markus left Wojo got fired. So, clearly, by this logic, Diener was holding his guys back, Markus was holding his guys up.
Compete and utter guano. Carry on.
Quote from: avid1010 on June 25, 2025, 10:17:59 AMHoward over Diener in any situation is a travesty.
Kam Jones over both. At least he has a chance defensivly.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 12:59:37 PMKam Jones over both. At least he has a chance defensivly.
Markus was a 2 time All American, all time BE scoring leader, BE POY, etc. Hard to overlook all that.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 12:59:37 PMKam Jones over both. At least he has a chance defensivly.
Hopefully defensively too!!
Quote from: Nukem2 on June 25, 2025, 01:04:24 PMMarkus was a 2 time All American, all time BE scoring leader, BE POY, etc. Hard to overlook all that.
Nah. Easy.
Quote from: Nukem2 on June 25, 2025, 01:04:24 PMMarkus was a 2 time All American, all time BE scoring leader, BE POY, etc. Hard to overlook all that.
Kam Jones made his team better than any of Markus's by being a better basketball player.
Better basketball players have better basketball success.
And, on top of that, basketball teams are undeniably getting better and more efficient each year.
To me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving some heinous scandal, where members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials.
I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way. Help me out. Cite other examples.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 12:59:37 PMKam Jones over both. At least he has a chance defensivly.
Your team would lose.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 01:24:22 PMDOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I don't think many have said this. I had one criticism of it being that it feels "expedited."
But that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 01:41:25 PMYour team would lose.
Wojo/Markus's teams lost in violent fashion at the end of every season. And Travis got injured when he had to carry us (and that team had horrific defenses)
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 01:50:51 PMWojo/Markus's teams lost in violent fashion at the end of every season. And Travis got injured when he had to carry us (and that team had horrific defenses)
Here we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.
And I will also mention the fact that the team that Kam lead lost pretty decisively toward the end of this past season.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 01:49:04 PMBut that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.
Like whom?
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 01:55:29 PMHere we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.
And I will also mention the fact that the team that Kam lead lost pretty decisively toward the end of this past season.
Like whom?
I blame Wojo for MU's struggles during Markus' years. Wojo was not a good coach for a number of reasons. As to comparisons between Howard and Kam, I would not be so quick to say Howard was better. I think it is debatable. Kam was a key part to better teams and was WAY better than Howard on defense. I agree that Howard was a better scorer. He was unbelievable. I am not surprised they are retiring his jersey.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 01:55:29 PMHere we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.
Kam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.
It's the same issue I have with people who prefer Kobe Bryant to Tim Duncan. You can have all the talent in the world, but some people are just better because they have physical characteristics, makeup, maturity, and basketball intelligence.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 01:55:29 PMLike whom?
CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:13:08 PMKam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.
It's the same issue I have with people who prefer Kobe Bryant to Tim Duncan. You can have all the talent in the world, but some people are just better because they have physical characteristics, makeup, maturity, and basketball intelligence. CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.
They can hang Jimmy's jersey above the toilet at Erbert's and Gerbert's
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:13:08 PMKam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.
Could say the same of Junior Cadougan who made Buzz's teams better even though his stats may have been pedestrian. Those teams were better with Junior on the floor. Buzz found that out in 13-14 when his team lacked what Junior brought to the table. Alas, Junior will never sniff the rafters.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:13:08 PMKam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.
First of all, I don't think the first sentence is all that accurate. I think the Big East of Markus' was better than Kam's Big East. Second, I don't know what evidence there is that he made his teams better than Markus did at all. And I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:13:08 PMCLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.
Maybe, no, no and no. You realize we are talking about a consensus All American, BEPOY, and the all time BE leading scorer right? Dominic James???? Puh-leze.
Quote from: Nukem2 on June 25, 2025, 02:36:03 PMCould say the same of Junior Cadougan who made Buzz's teams better even though his stats may have been pedestrian. Those teams were better with Junior on the floor. Buzz found that out in 13-14 when his team lacked what Junior brought to the table. Alas, Junior will never sniff the rafters.
Except those teams had Jae, who should clearly be in the rafters.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 02:38:29 PMFirst of all, I don't think the first sentence is all that accurate. I think the Big East of Markus' was better than Kam's Big East. Second, I don't know what evidence there is that he made his teams better than Markus did at all. And I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence.
Markus Howard – Marquette
Myles Powell – Seton Hall
Saddiq Bey – Villanova
Kamar Baldwin – Butler
Ty-Shon Alexander – Creighton
Naji Marshall – Xavier
Vs.
Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
Micah Peavy, Georgetown
Kam Jones, Marquette
Zuby Ejiofor, St. John's
RJ Luis Jr., St. John's
Eric Dixon, Villanova
I would take this years team up to like -8.5
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:55:18 PMMarkus Howard – Marquette
Myles Powell – Seton Hall
Saddiq Bey – Villanova
Kamar Baldwin – Butler
Ty-Shon Alexander – Creighton
Naji Marshall – Xavier
Vs.
Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
Micah Peavy, Georgetown
Kam Jones, Marquette
Zuby Ejiofor, St. John's
RJ Luis Jr., St. John's
Eric Dixon, Villanova
I would take this years team up to like -8.5
2020 Bracket Matrix Projections:
2-Creighton
2-Villanova
3-Seton Hall
5-Butler
8-Providence
9-Marquette
2025 NCAA Actuals
2-St. Johns
7-Creighton
8-UConn
9-Marquette
11-Xavier
So six tournament teams versus five. And half of the six were projected to go to the Sweet 16.
2020 BE was better. Not even close actually.
2020 Big East: Ranked first nationally in Conference RPI
2025 Big East: Ranked 4th
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 25, 2025, 12:46:51 PMIf Markus wins with sam then credit to Sam.
If Travis wins with Wade then credit to Travis.
Huh. What is the pattern here?
Anyway, give me Joe Chapman over Markus Howard. Winning is my main criteria.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 01:49:04 PMI don't think many have said this. I had one criticism of it being that it feels "expedited."
But that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.
It didn't happen quickly enough, to be honest.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 25, 2025, 03:01:33 PM2020 Bracket Matrix Projections:
2-Creighton
2-Villanova
3-Seton Hall
5-Butler
8-Providence
9-Marquette
2025 NCAA Actuals
2-St. Johns
7-Creighton
8-UConn
9-Marquette
11-Xavier
So six tournament teams versus five. And half of the six were projected to go to the Sweet 16.
2020 BE was better. Not even close actually.
Yea.. and THIS PAST YEARS Marquette team were efficient than ALL of the teams that made the tournament out of the Big East that year. Because basketball keeps getting more efficient over time.
In the last 20 years, how many 4 year MU players never won a tournament game? I do not know the answer, but I'm curious.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 04:30:13 PMYea.. and THIS PAST YEARS Marquette team were efficient than ALL of the teams that made the tournament out of the Big East that year. Because basketball keeps getting more efficient over time.
Keep shifting the goalposts. You're bound to make a valid point soon!
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 25, 2025, 05:07:54 PMIn the last 20 years, how many 4 year MU players never won a tournament game? I do not know the answer, but I'm curious.
No idea. But remember he didn't get his final chance either.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 01:24:22 PMTo me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving some heinous scandal, where members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials.
I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way. Help me out. Cite other examples.
Markus is the scapegoat for 7 years of Wojo. He was Wojo's best recruit by a mile, led the best Wojo teams by a mile. All of Wojo's shortcomings are somehow laid at Markus' feet as if he is the cause rather than the primary reason why Wojo' tenure wasn't even worse. It's bizarre that people can't give him his due.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on June 25, 2025, 05:36:55 PMMarkus is the scapegoat for 7 years of Wojo. He was Wojo's best recruit by a mile, led the best Wojo teams by a mile. All of Wojo's shortcomings are somehow laid at Markus' feet as if he is the cause rather than the primary reason why Wojo' tenure wasn't even worse. It's bizarre that people can't give him his due.
Well, yeah. Teams are not one guy only.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 25, 2025, 05:07:54 PMIn the last 20 years, how many 4 year MU players never won a tournament game? I do not know the answer, but I'm curious.
Well 20 years puts us to 2005. Off the top of my head Greg Elliot, Markus Howard, Jamal Cain, Theo John, JJJ, Duane Wilson.
The question really should be out of how many four year players total though.
The 3 amigos (and Burke) + Lazar, Cubillion won a gran total of 2 games in 5 years.
Cadougan, Otule, Davante, Juan, and Derrick won a ton, though outside of Davante I wouldn't say anyone was a key reason and even Davante was look number 4 on the E8 team
Then Oso, Kam, Stevie, Joplin who in 5 years won 3 games but the way people remember those losses it sounds like it may as well have been first round.
So 6/21 no wins
Edit: forgot Matt held. 7/22
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 01:24:22 PMTo me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving some heinous scandal, where members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials.
I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way. Help me out. Cite other examples.
He doesn't so soon with other deserving people who have been waiting so long.
What about Mac? National DPOY, GMC POY, First team all GMC, sweet 16 team, all-time shot blocks leader at MU, successful NBA career and played a vital role in rebuilding MU basketball.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 26, 2025, 08:47:38 AMHe doesn't so soon with other deserving people who have been waiting so long.
What about Mac? National DPOY, GMC POY, First team all GMC, sweet 16 team, all-time shot blocks leader at MU, successful NBA career and played a vital role in rebuilding MU basketball.
I agree with this analysis
I'd agree with Mac going up there. But Markus has a much stronger case.
Honestly McNeal is the one I'm not sure about. He wasn't even the best player in his class.
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 01:24:22 PMTo me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving some heinous scandal, where members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials.
I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way. Help me out. Cite other examples.
I think for a lot of MU fans (and even many that aren't on Scoop), Markus' era was frustrating, even disappointing, with the lack of team advancement (at all) in the tournament. Compounded with the Hauser situation, there were a lot of emotions brought on from, again, that lack of postseason success (which many of the the MU greats all got to experience).
To be clear, that is not reflective of Markus; but that it is a reality of the times and teams he was part of.
So, when folks are questioning the why now for Markus, I think that's where it comes from (not his talents or contributions to the program). Individually accolade-wise, he is 100% deserving.
It's amazing to me, even five years after he was graduated, how much controversy Markus Howard's recognition has generated. I don't think I've ever seen this before; Jim Chones may have been the closest.
Full disclosure: If this is what the university wants to do, I'm OK with it. It's their rafters and if putting Howard's jersey "up there" makes the administration happy, then OK.There's a whole lot larger questions -- like how many wins in the NCAA our team next year will have! Maybe Howard's jersey will enhance the program. If so, great.
For occasional readers of this great website, I don't like the idea because people in the rafters should be transformative. Thompson, Lee, Chones, Ellis, Lucas, Meminger, Wade ... they're all transformative. Marquette did special things because of their feats. Markus was a great basketball player and I enjoyed watching him play. But he was one-dimensional (didn't play defense well and I don't think he was a playmaker at guard). He carried us in more than a few games but, well, we didn't win as we should have. Obviously, Marquette doesn't agree with me nor do most Scoopers. That's fine with me.
I look forward to the day when Oso and Tyler go up there. They were transformative!
Hint to the administration: You may want to consider hanging a banner with the names of every member of the 1974 NCAA runners-up, a second with the names of the 1977 team and a third with the names of the 2004 Final Four team. Just a thought!
It's not quite apples to apples, but a large number of the Colorado fanbase got upset at the jersey retirement of Shaddeur Sanders this Spring (I don't think there was any one upset at Travis Hunter getting that recognition). The 1990 national championship team still has many individuals that haven't received that honor, and they also have numerous All-Americans that never got that recognition either.
A fan base having mixed emotions on a jersey/number retirement is not exclusive to Marquette University, especially for programs with strong histories and a long list of impactful/transformational players.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2025, 09:58:52 AMI look forward to the day when Oso and Tyler go up there. They were transformative!
Hint to the administration: You may want to consider hanging a banner with the names of every member of the 1974 NCAA runners-up, a second with the names of the 1977 team and a third with the names of the 2004 Final Four team. Just a thought!
Oso was good but not "transformative" in any way.
Maybe do what the Bulls did with their championship banners and put the names of the players around the perimeter.
Let's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 26, 2025, 11:01:44 AMLet's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.
If today's kids don't know Don Kojis, that's on them.
Imagine Suns fans hating Steve Nash because he never got them to a Finals.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2025, 11:02:52 AMIf today's kids don't know Don Kojis, that's on them.
They'd know Terry Rand!
"Not a playmaker at guard" with 27% and 26% assist rates in his junior and senior year. lol
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 26, 2025, 09:31:17 AMI'd agree with Mac going up there. But Markus has a much stronger case.
Honestly McNeal is the one I'm not sure about. He wasn't even the best player in his class.
For both Howard and McNeal, it is based on scoring. Each became the leading scorer in MU history to that point. McNeal was a good defender. He got a lot of steals. I thought James and Matthews were actually better defensively. As for Howard, he was a better defender than Rowsey.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 26, 2025, 11:05:44 AMImagine Suns fans hating Steve Nash because he never got them to a Finals.
Nash made four separate conference finals, while winning many more playoff series.
I don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game.
A comparable example to the winless/non-existent postseason would be someone like Zach Lavine, TBH.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on June 26, 2025, 11:37:50 AMNash made four separate conference finals, while winning many more playoff series.
I don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game.
A comparable example to the winless/non-existent postseason would be someone like Zach Lavine, TBH.
Markus had 3 shots to win a single elimination game amongst a group of roughly 360 teams. Steve had 10 years (just with Dallas, 18 overall) to win best of 7 series amongst a group of 30 teams.
Nobody is lauding Joel Embiid because he's led the 76ers to 5 series wins in his career.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 26, 2025, 10:23:32 AMOso was good but not "transformative" in any way.
Right. That's was an odd statement.
Personally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.
If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler. I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.
If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 26, 2025, 12:22:10 PMPersonally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.
If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler. I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.
If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.
I agree. I actually think Hutchins was a better college player than Doc. Doc did have some stellar dunks at MU.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 26, 2025, 12:22:10 PMPersonally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.
If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler. I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.
If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.
Doc and Hutch had remarkably similar numbers and Hutch's scoring numbers were greatly helped by 3 point shot which came after Doc. Doc was also a much better defender. Doc's case was also assisted by his post playing days association with MU.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 26, 2025, 11:40:54 AMMarkus had 3 shots to win a single elimination game amongst a group of roughly 360 teams. Steve had 10 years (just with Dallas, 18 overall) to win best of 7 series amongst a group of 30 teams.
Nobody is lauding Joel Embiid because he's led the 76ers to 5 series wins in his career.
If Joel Embiid was a star player who never went to the NBA playoffs, or won a single game/series, there would be plenty of shared public opinions on that one. I wouldn't even categorize Lavine as a "star player" and that narrative followed him in Chicago and now in Sacramento.
Quote from: Nukem2 on June 26, 2025, 01:12:04 PMDoc and Hutch had remarkably similar numbers and Hutch's scoring numbers were greatly helped by 3 point shot which came after Doc. Doc was also a much better defender. Doc's case was also assisted by his post playing days association with MU.
I do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).
Quote from: Zog from Margo on June 26, 2025, 01:38:33 PMI do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).
Quote from: Zog from Margo on June 26, 2025, 01:38:33 PMI do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).
Didn't say it would help Doc. It just helped increase Hutch's numbers which were similar to Doc's.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on June 26, 2025, 11:37:50 AMI don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game.
He was never on a team that was competitive in an NCAA game. 20+ point blowout losses to a 7 and a 12 seed in his two tries. His team's BET record is not good, either, though they took 2 out of 3 home games in the NIT.
He deserves to have his jersey retired because of his spectacular individual statistical record, not his contribution to successful teams. I have a feeling that with a better coach, he'd have won more and scored less.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 26, 2025, 01:53:12 PMHe was never on a team that was competitive in an NCAA game. 20+ point blowout losses to a 7 and a 12 seed in his two tries. His team's BET record is not good, either, though they took 2 out of 3 home games in the NIT.
He deserves to have his jersey retired because of his spectacular individual statistical record, not his contribution to successful teams. I have a feeling that with a better coach, he'd have won more and scored less.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 26, 2025, 01:53:12 PMHe was never on a team that was competitive in an NCAA game. 20+ point blowout losses to a 7 and a 12 seed in his two tries. His team's BET record is not good, either, though they took 2 out of 3 home games in the NIT.
He deserves to have his jersey retired because of his spectacular individual statistical record, not his contribution to successful teams. I have a feeling that with a better coach, he'd have won more and scored less.
The surrounding cast certainly does make a difference as you note. There was a lack of team quickness that held back those squads on defense that was exposed in tourney play. And the coaching on that side was not great either.
Quote from: Nukem2 on June 26, 2025, 02:10:41 PMThe surrounding cast certainly does make a difference as you note. There was a lack of team quickness that held back those squads on defense that was exposed in tourney play. And the coaching on that side was not great either.
The coaching also was lacking in terms of building team chemistry. I don't see that as Howard's fault.
The simplest solution is not to retire the jersey of anyone that has not won a national title because, quite frankly, they're all failures
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2025, 02:36:58 PMThe simplest solution is not to retire the jersey of anyone that has not won a national title because, quite frankly, they're all failures
Such a low bar! :P
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2025, 02:36:58 PMThe simplest solution is not to retire the jersey of anyone that has not won a national title because, quite frankly, they're all failures
I think you need to have won a national title
and been named NPOY -- or at least consensus AA. I don't want to see any scrubs from a title team up there.
Got it...winning has nothing to do with being an MU great.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2025, 03:33:32 PMI think you need to have won a national title and been named NPOY -- or at least consensus AA. I don't want to see any scrubs from a title team up there.
I'll take a scrub who wins over an All American who makes the program worse. There is no Elite 8 run without a Davidson defender glued to Jake Thomas in the corner on Vander Blue's game winning drive. Raise that jersey into the banners.
Well, Hutchins has been brought up. Diener was all about the NIT without Wade. Chones didn't win anything and abandoned his team in the middle of the season.
If you are going to prioritize post season wins at the expense of overwhelming numbers and accolades, then Vander Blue and Junior Cadougan should be next.
Pretty sure their 7 tournament wins are more than anybody since the AL era.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2025, 03:33:32 PMI think you need to have won a national title and been named NPOY -- or at least consensus AA. I don't want to see any scrubs from a title team up there.
I think this is better than my idea.
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2025, 03:46:51 PMWell, Hutchinson has been brought up. Diener was all about the NIT without Wade. Chones didn't win anything and abandoned his team in the middle of the season.
If you are going to prioritize post season wins at the expense of overwhelming numbers and accolades, then Vander Blue and Junior Cadougan should be next.
Take Kojis jersey down. Guy never made it past the 2nd round when the tournament had like 9 teams, 6 of which were playing dudes that would be plumbers and dentists
Lotsa Scoopers seem to hate elite offenses. Very odd.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 26, 2025, 04:34:38 PMLotsa Scoopers seem to hate elite offenses. Very odd.
I think you should make one of your in depth, deep dive, number cases for the elite offense.
Scoop: If Shaka wants 3s and layups then he needs to start recruiting shooters.
Also Scoop: I hate Markus.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 26, 2025, 04:53:03 PMScoop: If Shaka wants 3s and layups then he needs to start recruiting shooters.
Also Scoop: I hate Markus.
Don't forget 'need more pull-ups and tear drops.'
Also, I hate all of the transfers these days. Except the Hausers. They are heroes.
To be fair, many of the last group also lament MU not participating in the portal
Crean bailed on MU for it's IU, IU, IU.
Don't understand the love.
He was paid a handsome salary and provided the resources to succeed at MU.
He always felt the Big 10 was superior to the Big East.
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 26, 2025, 05:25:25 PMCrean bailed on MU for it's IU, IU, IU.
Don't understand the love.
He was paid a handsome salary and provided the resources to succeed at MU.
He always felt the Big 10 was superior to the Big East.
It was time for both parties to make a change.
Kissed and made up.
The reason Doc is up there, is because TC wanted his son at Marquette.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 26, 2025, 11:01:44 AMLet's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.
This makes the most sense of all as to why Markus' jersey is being retired.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 24, 2025, 01:23:29 PMAlso, many were present when Crean was inducted into the M Club Hall of Fame.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2025, 09:53:27 PMThis makes the most sense of all as to why Kam's jersey is being retired. Ditto for Jeral.
Big honor for Kam
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 26, 2025, 11:01:44 AMLet's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.
They literally retired Chones number last year.
And Jerel is almost 40. These recruits weren't even born when he played.
Quote from: The Sultan on June 27, 2025, 07:50:19 AMThey literally retired Chones number last year.
And Jerel is almost 40. These recruits weren't even born when he played.
And Chones wasn't very good
Quote from: NCMUFan on June 26, 2025, 05:25:25 PMCrean bailed on MU for it's IU, IU, IU.
Don't understand the love.
He was paid a handsome salary and provided the resources to succeed at MU.
He always felt the Big 10 was superior to the Big East.
Thank Stanford for that one.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 27, 2025, 07:07:17 AMBig honor for Kam
Teach me to write on draft day. Happy for Kam and for Markus.
I expect Kam's jersey will be retired in due course.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: wadesworld on June 26, 2025, 11:05:44 AMImagine Suns fans hating Steve Nash because he never got them to a Finals.
This thread wasn't about Andrew Rowsey
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2025, 09:53:27 PMThis makes the most sense of all as to why Markus' jersey is being retired.
recruits couldn't care less about that. They care about NIL and how much money they're going to get, not a player who appeared in 31 NBA games and played for a different coach who got fired.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 27, 2025, 11:38:25 AMrecruits couldn't care less about that. They care about NIL and how much money they're going to get, not a player who appeared in 31 NBA games and played for a different coach who got fired.
Some recruits, sure. Some care about more than just the highest bidder.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 27, 2025, 11:43:50 AMSome recruits, sure. Some care about more than just the highest bidder.
Thank God that's the case, or Shaka's philosophy may be doomed.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on June 27, 2025, 11:38:25 AMrecruits couldn't care less about that. They care about NIL and how much money they're going to get, not a player who appeared in 31 NBA games and played for a different coach who got fired.
Yes-ish. Read interviews with the guys who commit to MU
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2025, 01:24:22 PMTo me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving some heinous scandal, where members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials.
I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way. Help me out. Cite other examples.
It's 100% tied to Wojo and not Howard.
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2025, 02:13:08 PMKam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.
It's the same issue I have with people who prefer Kobe Bryant to Tim Duncan. You can have all the talent in the world, but some people are just better because they have physical characteristics, makeup, maturity, and basketball intelligence. CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.
LOL DOMINIC JAMES??????????????
Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 07, 2025, 11:21:47 AMLOL DOMINIC JAMES??????????????
Right? I guess the theory is that he went 2-4 in the NCAAs while Markus went 0-2.
But James had nowhere near the accolades that Markus did. I can't even imagine how someone can state that case.
Quote from: Nukem2 on July 07, 2025, 01:38:07 PMYou mean Lazar...? ;)
I mean the two aren't exactly far off in accolades. Lazar: 2x 2nd team All BE, AA Honorable Mention vs Dom: 1x 1st team All Big East, 1x 2nd Team All BE, AA Honorable Mention, BE ROTY.
Both iconic for the Crean & Buzz years but they with Wes, DJO, Novak, Diener, and Vander (and I'd have thought McNeal) are not retire guys. At least Crowder has an argument that he was also BE POY and we only have 3 of those, let alone 5 CPOY in history
Terry Rand?!?!?!? The Moore the merrier.
Obscure, Tower, but awesome