https://x.com/bensteelemjs/status/1924891611797819573?s=61&t=6XPB8f4sAKmJIzxgMcsCjw
shoot. was hoping this was about his spring semester GPA.
When will Ben learn! Scoop says he's not a stretch 4!
https://x.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1924896352024093081?t=gzG9KngKhqDgggpPFFEmmA&s=19
His 28% three point shooting says he's not a stretch 4.
The hope is that he can develop into one.
He is the heir apparent to Joplin. Except taller, faster, more rounded offensive game at the same stage of his career.
Congratulations, young man.
I was hoping this was a transfer announcement.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 20, 2025, 01:40:09 PMHis 28% three point shooting says he's not a stretch 4.
The hope is that he can develop into one.
9 games >40% so he's a part time stretch 4.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on May 20, 2025, 01:37:52 PMWhen will Ben learn! Scoop says he's not a stretch 4!
https://x.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1924896352024093081?t=gzG9KngKhqDgggpPFFEmmA&s=19
On a team that wasn't very good at shooting, the only person to make at least a single 3 point attempt and shoot a lower 3 point percentage than Royce this year was Tre Norman. No defense was being stretched because of Royce.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on May 20, 2025, 02:10:15 PM8 games >40% so he's a part time stretch 4.
I've seen enough flashes to be hopeful, but he's got the same problem that 95% of all college players have, and that's consistency. If he improves his 3 point shooting percentage by over 11% on increased volume the way Jop did from his Fresh to Soph year, I'd have no problem labeling him a stretch 4, but the number just aren't there yet.
He was at 33% in Big East play. Nothing to write home about but the form looks good. If he improves shot selection as well as setting his feet and squaring up it wouldn't surprise me if he shot 36%+ from 3 this upcoming season.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 20, 2025, 01:46:19 PMI was hoping this was a transfer announcement.
It essentially is, just one year in advance. look who all is coaching there — he'll be poached a year from now.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 20, 2025, 02:15:49 PMI've seen enough flashes to be hopeful, but he's got the same problem that 95% of all college players have, and that's consistency. If he improves his 3 point shooting percentage by over 11% on increased volume the way Jop did from his Fresh to Soph year, I'd have no problem labeling him a stretch 4, but the number just aren't there yet.
So out of all college basketball players...what percent qualify as a stretch 4?
Good on you,young man,you deserve it!
Better to be a stretch 4 than a condense 4
Quote from: DoctorV on May 20, 2025, 09:13:50 PMBetter to be a stretch 4 than a condense 4
Davante?
Tryout camp after next year. But for Royce, he will find out how good he is going against the best players in the 25 and 26 year.
Yeah, Royce may not have stretched defenses this year, but you can tell he's going to be a solid to good shooter. And he's definitely going to get on some heaters that win us games.
Way to go big fella. The young man is going places!
Quote from: Superfan on May 20, 2025, 10:35:41 PMWay to go big fella. The young man is going places!
6'9" will be fine.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 20, 2025, 06:07:56 PMSo out of all college basketball players...what percent qualify as a stretch 4?
I don't know. I don't care about the vast majority of "all college basketball Players". I do know that RP did not shoot the ball well enough last year to warrant that particular title.
As a freshman, forced to play back up 4 AND 5, he did more than enough to convince me he will be a more than adequate replacement for Joplin and eventually a clear upgrade. Though maybe not on day 1.
Also, that is the one position at which Shaka has not yet recruited a clear replacement yet. So, I anticipate 28-30 minutes and double digit scoring.
When does he turn 19?
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 08:02:07 AMI don't know. I don't care about the vast majority of "all college basketball Players". I do know that RP did not shoot the ball well enough last year to warrant that particular title.
Then don't say 95% of college basketball players struggle with consistency, and that he can't be considered a stretch 4 until he fixes that issue. At an extreme that would mean 5% of college basketball players would meet that criteria, and more likely would mean less than 1% of power forwards would meet your criteria.
I don't think teams were saying "no need to extend out and guard Parham beyond the arc." So if he's drawing his defender out, he's stretching the floor on that given night.
Anyhow...team USA talent evaluators obviously liked him enough for tryouts. That's probably a good indication...
Quote from: avid1010 link=msg=1745503
/quote]Quote from: tower912 on May 21, 2025, 08:43:42 AMAs a freshman, forced to play back up 4 AND 5, he did more than enough to convince me he will be a more than adequate replacement for Joplin and eventually a clear upgrade. Though maybe not on day 1.
Also, that is the one position at which Shaka has not yet recruited a clear replacement yet. So, I anticipate 28-30 minutes and double digit scoring.
Agreed...seeks like a guy that is just going to figure out how to get buckets on a regular basis. I can't wait to see his development.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 21, 2025, 12:17:49 PMThen don't say 95% of college basketball players struggle with consistency, and that he can't be considered a stretch 4 until he fixes that issue. At an extreme that would mean 5% of college basketball players would meet that criteria, and more likely would mean less than 1% of power forwards would meet your criteria.
I don't think teams were saying "no need to extend out and guard Parham beyond the arc." So if he's drawing his defender out, he's stretching the floor on that given night.
Anyhow...team USA talent evaluators obviously liked him enough for tryouts. That's probably a good indication...
I think you misinterpreted my post. I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4. I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4. Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on. The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 12:25:34 PMI think you misinterpreted my post. I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4. I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4. Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on. The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.
To be a stretch 4, he just needs teams to respect him enough to guard him at the arc. Being a "stretch 4" doesn't require a magic percentage, it just means the defense is pulled to the perimeter, which opens up the rest of the floor for your teammates to make offensive moves. Teams already guard him on the perimeter, which means he's already a stretch 4.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 21, 2025, 04:22:44 PMTo be a stretch 4, he just needs teams to respect him enough to guard him at the arc. Being a "stretch 4" doesn't require a magic percentage, it just means the defense is pulled to the perimeter, which opens up the rest of the floor for your teammates to make offensive moves. Teams already guard him on the perimeter, which means he's already a stretch 4.
That's an incredibly loose definition. There are a ton of players that get guarded on the perimeter. They are not all "stretching" the defense. You're right that there's no magic percentage, but at some point you have to hit some shots, and he has not done that at a very high clip.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 04:31:51 PMThat's an incredibly loose definition. There are a ton of players that get guarded on the perimeter. They are not all "stretching" the defense. You're right that there's no magic percentage, but at some point you have to hit some shots, and he has not done that at a very high clip.
It's not a "loose" definition, it's just the definition. Players at the 4 that pull defenses to the perimeter are stretch 4s.
Consider Caedin Hamilton and Devin Carter. Different positions, but they serve to make the point. Caedin was left unguarded to the point that he could catch, set, take a long, deep breath, recalibrate, and shoot without a defender moving an inch in his direction. He's not a player that is stretch because no part of the defense extends to him.
Devin Carter, on the other hand, drew defenders to 35 feet out because he hit a number of big shots from super long range. He wasn't good at those shots (sub-25%) but teams picked him up there because of the highlight reel shots he did make.
Royce stretches defenses and we know this because Synergy noted 53 of his 77 catch and shoot attempts were guarded. We'd all love for him to be more accurate out there, but there's no world in which he doesn't clearly fit the "stretch 4" criteria.
It is a loose definition. Short of the Hamilton/Derrick/Edey type players, 99% of all players are guarded out to the three point line. You become a "stretch" player when you're guarded out that far because you're a threat to hit a shot, not just because that's how teams play defense. Every single player we've faced since Shaka has gotten here has gotten guarded out to the perimeter, that doesn't make every player a stretch player, it just means that Shaka runs a high pressure defense that prioritizes TO and guarding players out that far, even if they're not a stretch player, is the best way to force TO. Making some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 05:17:08 PMMaking some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.
I'm sorry that words have meanings, but they do. Royce is a stretch 4. That's not a debatable point.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 21, 2025, 07:18:54 PMI'm sorry that words have meanings, but they do. Royce is a stretch 4. That's not a debatable point.
I'm sorry you think so, but the actual statistics say otherwise.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 05:17:08 PMIt is a loose definition. Short of the Hamilton/Derrick/Edey type players, 99% of all players are guarded out to the three point line. You become a "stretch" player when you're guarded out that far because you're a threat to hit a shot, not just because that's how teams play defense. Every single player we've faced since Shaka has gotten here has gotten guarded out to the perimeter, that doesn't make every player a stretch player, it just means that Shaka runs a high pressure defense that prioritizes TO and guarding players out that far, even if they're not a stretch player, is the best way to force TO. Making some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.
Give it up. You're getting wiped out here.
Royce is clearly a stretch 4.
Quote from: BM1090 on May 20, 2025, 10:14:32 PMYeah, Royce may not have stretched defenses this year, but you can tell he's going to be a solid to good shooter. And he's definitely going to get on some heaters that win us games.
His shot selection improving should help his percentage. There were a few times I'm not sure the ball was fully in his hands before he was firing up a shot.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 21, 2025, 08:35:29 PMHis shot selection improving should help his percentage. There were a few times I'm not sure the ball was fully in his hands before he was firing up a shot.
Need to firmly corral the ball before attempting a turnaround jumper from the elbow
As Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.
And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.
Like most Piston drafts of that era, they were wrong.
Quote from: tower912 on May 23, 2025, 11:22:59 AMLike most Piston drafts of that era, they were wrong.
Well, nobody said he was a GOOD stretch 4.
Quote from: MU82 on May 23, 2025, 11:20:28 AMAs Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.
And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.
From the chatter I have heard...he certainly had stretch 4 NIL offers coming in. Very happy to see him remain at MU.
Quote from: MU82 on May 23, 2025, 11:20:28 AMAs Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.
And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.
Really just reinforces my point that you actually have to be able to shoot to be a stretch 4. Pistons thought they could develop Henry's shot, obviously couldn't. If Royce develops his shot he too can earn that title.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2025, 12:25:34 PMI think you misinterpreted my post. I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4. I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4. Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on. The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.
So you want to see him hit on 33% to be considered a stretch 4? If teams stopped guarding him out to the arc, helped off of him, and let him pop/flair freely in the 2-man game he'd do that in his sleep. They don't do that though...because he's a stretch 4.
Quote from: MU82 on May 23, 2025, 11:20:28 AMAs Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.
And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.
But Henry got so many more "easy" rebounds...
Quote from: avid1010 on May 23, 2025, 11:31:44 AMSo you want to see him hit on 33% to be considered a stretch 4? If teams stopped guarding him out to the arc, helped off of him, and let him pop/flair freely in the 2-man game he'd do that in his sleep. They don't do that though...because he's a stretch 4.
Royce was offered wide open 3 point attempts frequently. They were offered to him because he only hit 28% of them. As I have said, I don't think there's a magic percentage that you need to hit, but you have to shoot it better than he did. Hopefully he improves in that regard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34
This is obviously all semantics. But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in. They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam). Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3? Yeah. But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year. Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too. Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.
Stretches...stretch the defense. Defenses collapsed off of Parham. This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes. He wasn't stretching the defense.
I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season. But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached. It's very clear. I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball. Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 23, 2025, 11:42:02 AMNobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.
I might start calling Theo John (.750 career) and Mike Kinsella (.800 career) stretch 5s.
He will start at the 4. He, like everyone else, will shoot 3's.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 23, 2025, 11:42:02 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34
This is obviously all semantics. But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in. They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam). Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3? Yeah. But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year. Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too. Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.
Stretches...stretch the defense. Defenses collapsed off of Parham. This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes. He wasn't stretching the defense.
I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season. But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached. It's very clear. I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball. Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.
20 second later they help off Jop to double Royce...
Quote from: wadesworld on May 23, 2025, 11:42:02 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34
This is obviously all semantics. But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in. They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam). Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3? Yeah. But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year. Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too. Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.
Stretches...stretch the defense. Defenses collapsed off of Parham. This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes. He wasn't stretching the defense.
I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season. But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached. It's very clear. I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball. Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.
Yep, watching that highlight video, the thing I'm most excited for is the work he's going to do down low. He already had a solid frame and he showed some very nice body control and a soft touch on more than a few of those shots. The push shot in the Iowa State highlight stating at 12:38 has the Oso stamp of approval on it.
I think a textbook example of how he compared to other players on the team is in the Xavier highlight starting at 8:35, Kam swings the ball to Royce at the top of the key and Jop's defender fakes like he's going to close him down before staying home on Jop. Now it's a highlight video so of course Royce made the 3, but considering he banked it in on a shot I'm pretty sure he didn't call bank, it's hard not to say the defender made the right call. If those rolls had been reversed and Jop had gotten the ball at the top of the key, I would bet that Royce's defender would have left him to try to close Jop down.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 23, 2025, 01:43:26 PM20 second later they help off Jop to double Royce...
Right. He's not defended that way every single play. But you cannot possibly watch a highlight video of all of his makes this season and tell me that he was stretching the defense here. It just isn't happening.
Quote from: MuMark on May 20, 2025, 01:16:31 PMhttps://x.com/bensteelemjs/status/1924891611797819573?s=61&t=6XPB8f4sAKmJIzxgMcsCjw
So there are 6 college players and all the rest are HS players that Royce will be competing against. Does anyone think the college guys will get beat for a spot by HS players?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on May 23, 2025, 03:37:35 PMSo there are 6 college players and all the rest are HS players that Royce will be competing against. Does anyone think the college guys will get beat for a spot by HS players?
I think there are 7 college players. But, yes, I think some of the college guys will 'get beat for a spot' by HS guys. I think history shows us that... look back in time and see the proof (biannually).
Last time.. 2023.. I think there were 9 college guys invited to training camp... and 4 of 'em made the final roster.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on May 23, 2025, 03:37:35 PMSo there are 6 college players and all the rest are HS players that Royce will be competing against. Does anyone think the college guys will get beat for a spot by HS players?
Almost certainly they will.
Difference in age is not large and elite 5 star high school talent is certainly capable of beating out good college freshmen.
Cenac Jr is 18........so is Royce.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 23, 2025, 11:28:31 AMReally just reinforces my point that you actually have to be able to shoot to be a stretch 4. Pistons thought they could develop Henry's shot, obviously couldn't. If Royce develops his shot he too can earn that title.
Really admire your dedication to dying on this hill.
Yes, it's all semantics. There is no "title" of Stretch 4.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 23, 2025, 02:00:56 PMRight. He's not defended that way every single play. But you cannot possibly watch a highlight video of all of his makes this season and tell me that he was stretching the defense here. It just isn't happening.
Right. I wouldn't watch a highlight video of his makes to determine that...
Quote from: MU82 on May 24, 2025, 04:20:49 AMYes, it's all semantics. There is no "title" of Stretch 4.
And it's not something you have to "earn."
Maybe one can be an ineffective or effective stretch 4.
I could call myself a marathon runner or power lifter, but be the worst that ever lived at it.
Climbing the charts, looking for a place on the Mt. Rushmore of most pedantic scoop argument.
Maybe after a few more pages of posts.
Fair.
He's no aircraft carrier. That we can all agree on
Quote from: tower912 on May 24, 2025, 07:22:46 AMClimbing the charts, looking for a place on the Mt. Rushmore of most pedantic scoop argument.
Long way to go, my friend.
Hence the 'Climbing the charts'. Maybe it suffers a knee injury and never reaches its full potential potential and we can lament what might have been.
Maybe he should concentrate more on a stretch of that neck.
Honestly the bigger concern with Royce is if he will ever be able to dunk with authority?
Those dunks this season left a bit to be desired.
#versaclimber
Quote from: DoctorV on May 24, 2025, 10:38:33 PMHonestly the bigger concern with Royce is if he will ever be able to dunk with authority?
Those dunks this season left a bit to be desired.
#versaclimber
That isn't my biggest concern.........it probably isn't in my top 5
Quote from: MuMark on May 27, 2025, 11:56:01 AMThat isn't my biggest concern.........it probably isn't in my top 5
Is whether he will get recruited over in the portal on the list?
Quote from: DoctorV on May 27, 2025, 02:44:56 PMIs whether he will get recruited over in the portal on the list?
I hope so. He's peaked
Quote from: NCMUFan on May 28, 2025, 10:27:03 AMProof?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/5d/a8/hcwLmUnM_o.gif) (http://"https://imgbox.com/hcwLmUnM")
Quote from: NCMUFan on May 28, 2025, 10:27:03 AMProof?
He's a sophomore and Marquette basketball players fail to improve under Shaka Smart
I never noticed that.
Thank you for sharing your superior insight!
Royce made the first cut
https://x.com/adamfinkelstein/status/1934665952312144176?s=61&t=6XPB8f4sAKmJIzxgMcsCjw
Quote from: MuMark on June 16, 2025, 12:52:35 PMRoyce made the first cut
https://x.com/adamfinkelstein/status/1934665952312144176?s=61&t=6XPB8f4sAKmJIzxgMcsCjw
Great to hear. Good experience for him overall to be at the camp. Would love to see him make the team and showcase and grow against some of the top u19 talent.
https://x.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1935788138603200876?t=NNBVruiOd5jlzY4xiucMOA&s=19
Does this mean he's cut from MU too?
Quote from: Shaka Shart on June 19, 2025, 06:53:47 PMDoes this mean he's cut from MU too?
Guess he needs to become an aircraft carrier
Quote from: Shaka Shart on June 19, 2025, 06:53:47 PMDoes this mean he's cut from MU too?
Does this mean he's transferring with Sean Jones?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 20, 2025, 09:57:46 AMDoes this mean he's transferring with Sean Jones?
Made me chuckle ... but the teal was totally unnecessary.