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This ain't no Kessel Run to chase down Hurley and UCONN

1.21 jiggawatts not being an option is a travesty.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on May 15, 2025, 05:43:51 PM1.21 jiggawatts not being an option is a travesty.

Our talent level is a travesty

MU can not miss on freshman recruits like they did for 2 years.  Junior class so far has been below average, and Gold and Ross are just above average.  Next 3 years look very good on paper but time will tell on those kids. Bringing in Two redshirt players could have been replaced  The portal, but relationships growth and victory will be tested this year.

I would have voted for

A Wardle

Marquette is still in the Big East???

Miniscule.

A Pope.

More concerned with the gaap in Big East teams.

A league.

Immeasurable.

Insurmountable

3 quadrants

Just behind St. Thomas.

Quote from: MU82 on May 15, 2025, 10:31:56 PMJust behind St. Thomas.

And Dayton obviously

One aircraft carrier

One Google but seriously feel we are right there with Creighton close to zUCONN and Saint John's

None of the above, as the gap is so wide that it can't be quantified.

Somebody posted in the last couple of weeks that Torvik has MU with the 4th best talent in the Big East.   It is just one data point and many will argue how accurate it is.  That is what happens here. 
  I mentioned recently that Silver Warrior on the Dodds board took the time to detail all of the comings and goings at all of the Big East schools.   We can all look at the data and draw different conclusions, again, because that is what we do, but I came away thinking that MU is in a good place and I don't see much for this coming season that is going to fundamentally alter the balance of power in the Big East.
  Creighton, SJU, UConn, MU, and maybe Villanova are going to battle at the top.  MU has more 'ifs' than we are used to, but plenty of talent.

Every team, every year goes in with question marks. Transfers may fit with the program. Then again, they may not. Ditto for recruits.

Keep in mind, the game isn't played on paper.

A couple of years ago, Marquette, on paper, was predicted to finish ninth in the Big East. We were looking to be passed by, uhhh, DePaul! We had more perceived potholes than a gravel road in the north woods after a spring thaw. Nobody who looked at our team could have seen the "F'em" attitude started by Tyler Kolek that fueled us to a Big East regular season and tournament title.

Could anyone looking at that team ever conceive that Tyler and Oso would be in the NBA and Kam is but a few weeks behind them?

That's why polls like this are silly. Let Shaka and the guys do their magic.     

Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on May 16, 2025, 01:07:30 AMOne Google but seriously feel we are right there with Creighton close to zUCONN and Saint John's

the Marquette roster as we know it to be for 2025/26 is close to StJ's and UConn, in your opinion? Care to explain? Imo, no MU player is a top 6 player for Pitino. Do I think StJ's runs the BE? Wouldn't surprise me if they did.

The gap, thanks to our coach, has grown so large that many are now calling it Shaka's Chasm.

How many more empty transfer portal cycles before we're begging for an invite to The Valley?

Quote from: MDMU04 on May 16, 2025, 09:43:55 AMThe gap, thanks to our coach, has grown so large that many are now calling it Shaka's Chasm.

How many more empty transfer portal cycles before we're begging for an invite to The Valley?

Shaka's Chasm is a great way to describe how far Marquette has fallen.  Not sure that's a nickname that will be strong enough for anyone that's been a fan since 1865, but it's a good one

Quote from: dgies9156 on July 22, 1970, 12:53:55 AMquote author=dgies9156 link=msg=1744956 date=1747403574]
A couple of years ago, Marquette, on paper, was predicted to finish ninth in the Big East. We were looking to be passed by, uhhh, DePaul! We had more perceived potholes than a gravel road in the north woods after a spring thaw. Nobody who looked at our team could have seen the "F'em" attitude started by Tyler Kolek that fueled us to a Big East regular season and tournament title.

Could anyone looking at that team ever conceive that Tyler and Oso would be in the NBA and Kam is but a few weeks behind them?     

Despite considerable evidence that Marquette players improve under Shaka, quite a few Scoopers refuse to believe that players returning from last season probably will get better - with some possibly getting a LOT better.

And a coupla Eeyores who begrudgingly acknowledge that our players have improved, refuse to give Shaka and his assistants any credit for it.

Anyhoo ... I'm still saying the gap between St. Thomas and MU keeps widening, and just hope we can catch our Big East rival Tommies one day.

Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2025, 10:39:36 AMDespite considerable evidence that Marquette players improve under Shaka, quite a few Scoopers refuse to believe that players returning from last season probably will get better - with some possibly getting a LOT better.

And a coupla Eeyores who begrudgingly acknowledge that our players have improved, refuse to give Shaka and his assistants any credit for it.

Anyhoo ... I'm still saying the gap between St. Thomas and MU keeps widening, and just hope we can catch our Big East rival Tommies one day.

Shaka has developed players; yes, that is 100% true. I think some of us are skeptical of next years roster because the sophomores this past year did not make that leap and there is a reason to be concerned. Here is Kam Jones development - he took leaps forward every year:

Kam Jones PPG:
2021-22: 7.4
2022-23: 15.1
2023-24: 17.2
2024-25: 19.2

Here is the soon to be junior class:

Zaide Lowery PPG:
2023-24: 1.6
2024-25: 4.1 

Tre Norman PPG:
2023-24: 1.9
2024-25: 1.6

Sean Jones - will not have played in nearly 2 years - big question mark.

It is more than OK to question the 2025-2026 team. Especially since the players returning did not make that Kam, Tyler, O-Max jump that we have seen in the past.

Quote from: MUbiz on May 16, 2025, 11:53:59 AMShaka has developed players; yes, that is 100% true. I think some of us are skeptical of next years roster because the sophomores this past year did not make that leap and there is a reason to be concerned. Here is Kam Jones development - he took leaps forward every year:

Kam Jones PPG:
2021-22: 7.4
2022-23: 15.1
2023-24: 17.2
2024-25: 19.2

Here is the soon to be junior class:

Zaide Lowery PPG:
2023-24: 1.6
2024-25: 4.1 

Tre Norman PPG:
2023-24: 1.9
2024-25: 1.6

Sean Jones - will not have played in nearly 2 years - big question mark.

It is more than OK to question the 2025-2026 team. Especially since the players returning did not make that Kam, Tyler, O-Max jump that we have seen in the past.

Norman's offensive shortcomings make it unlikely that he will take a statistical leap, but I don't think it's pollyanna to expect pretty big things from Lowery and even Jones next season. Lowery already improved a lot during the second half of last season, when he was healthy and earning PT.

I do understand the skepticism, I really do. But I not only am an MU hoops optimist, I have simply learned to give Shaka the benefit of the doubt until he gives me reason to do otherwise. I guess what I don't understand is why some Scoopers (not saying you) will not even consider giving Shaka that benefit of the doubt given how he has brought our program back from the dead.

Personally, I will be surprised if, at the end of the 2025-26 season, most Scoopers aren't pleased by the development of Parham, Owens, Lowery and Ross. Here's hoping Sean is back to full speed; if so, I will be surprised if he also doesn't improve a lot.

Now we've gone and done it, MUbiz - gotten all serious in Unk's VERY serious thread.

Quote from: Viper on May 16, 2025, 08:53:48 AMthe Marquette roster as we know it to be for 2025/26 is close to StJ's and UConn, in your opinion? Care to explain? Imo, no MU player is a top 6 player for Pitino. Do I think StJ's runs the BE? Wouldn't surprise me if they did.

Chase would be top 6 on any Big East roster.

Quote from: MUDPT on May 16, 2025, 12:18:44 PMChase would be top 6 on any Big East roster.

This reminds me of Tyler Kolek playing in the NBA this year and not staying in school.  #ballknower

The gap is one year. First place 2027.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 16, 2025, 12:26:35 PMThis reminds me of Tyler Kolek playing in the NBA this year and not staying in school.  #ballknower

Kolek got in the other night. Called-up from the G and playoff eligible. Knicks were down 25 no matta.  Nice 'Marquette' mention from Kevin Harlon on the call. Side note, how's your Baskin Robbins summer job going? Good on ya.

Quote from: Viper on May 16, 2025, 12:43:33 PMKolek got in the other night. Called-up from the G and playoff eligible. Knicks were down 25 no matta.  Nice 'Marquette' mention from Kevin Harlon on the call. Side note, how's your Baskin Robbins summer job going? Good on ya.

NBA player, Tyler Kolek.  Wild

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 16, 2025, 09:58:23 AMShaka's Chasm is a great way to describe how far Marquette has fallen.  Not sure that's a nickname that will be strong enough for anyone that's been a fan since 1865, but it's a good one

Earliest known picture of Dung Willie

(https://images2.imgbox.com/20/9b/4f64AGrz_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/4f64AGrz)

Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2025, 12:18:03 PMNorman's offensive shortcomings make it unlikely that he will take a statistical leap, but I don't think it's pollyanna to expect pretty big things from Lowery and even Jones next season. Lowery already improved a lot during the second half of last season, when he was healthy and earning PT.

I do understand the skepticism, I really do. But I not only am an MU hoops optimist, I have simply learned to give Shaka the benefit of the doubt until he gives me reason to do otherwise. I guess what I don't understand is why some Scoopers (not saying you) will not even consider giving Shaka that benefit of the doubt given how he has brought our program back from the dead.

Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2025, 12:18:03 PMNorman's offensive shortcomings make it unlikely that he will take a statistical leap, but I don't think it's pollyanna to expect pretty big things from Lowery and even Jones next season. Lowery already improved a lot during the second half of last season, when he was healthy and earning PT.

I do understand the skepticism, I really do. But I not only am an MU hoops optimist, I have simply learned to give Shaka the benefit of the doubt until he gives me reason to do otherwise. I guess what I don't understand is why some Scoopers (not saying you) will not even consider giving Shaka that benefit of the doubt given how he has brought our program back from the dead.

Personally, I will be surprised if, at the end of the 2025-26 season, most Scoopers aren't pleased by the development of Parham, Owens, Lowery and Ross. Here's hoping Sean is back to full speed; if so, I will be surprised if he also doesn't improve a lot.

Now we've gone and done it, MUbiz - gotten all serious in Unk's VERY serious thread.

Personally, I will be surprised if, at the end of the 2025-26 season, most Scoopers aren't pleased by the development of Parham, Owens, Lowery and Ross. Here's hoping Sean is back to full speed; if so, I will be surprised if he also doesn't improve a lot.

Now we've gone and done it, MUbiz - gotten all serious in Unk's VERY serious thread.

I am one of those MU fans giving Shaka the benefit of the doubt. Shaka has earned the right to try it his way next year. And if his way is 100% of his high school recruits with no transfers, that is OK with me.

As far as the extremely critical scoopers - I understand where they are coming from - they saw the final 4 a few months ago and saw the aircraft carrier types and xfers and said "we need that".

The best way to explain how I am feeling about next years squad is - cautiously optimistic. I think a top 6 seed would be exceeding expectations, a 7-9 seed would be what I would expect and worst case is a bubble team.

A light year? Might as well just call that a Buzz.

At any rate. This season and next season are already over. Won't 2028 ever get here. Ugh ..

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 16, 2025, 12:48:18 PMNBA player, Tyler Kolek.  Wild

Impossible. Viper's BIL said, "No way!"

I look at the top seven, Gold, Parham, Lowery, Ross, Owens, SJones, and Norman, and I cannot wait for the season to start.  I look at Burke and Ooze, I mean Hamilton and Clark, and see opportunities and potential.   

The only reasons I see for pessimism is a lack of an obvious back up for Parham, and less experienced players in new roles.   Because of that, I acknowledge the lack of certainty.  I remain optimistic.

Quote from: tower912 on May 16, 2025, 02:55:48 PMI look at the top seven, Gold, Parham, Lowery, Ross, Owens, SJones, and Norman, and I cannot wait for the season to start.  I look at Burke and Ooze, I mean Hamilton and Clark, and see opportunities and potential.   

The only reasons I see for pessimism is a lack of an obvious back up for Parham, and less experienced players in new roles.   Because of that, I acknowledge the lack of certainty.  I remain optimistic.

I share most of your optimism, tower. But barring an unforeseen portal addition, I do think we'll need solid contributions from a couple of our incoming freshmen, and maybe Clark, for MU to not have to sweat out an NCAAT bid. Certainly possible to get at least the kind of production we got from Kam or Royce, to name two under Shaka who played their roles well as frosh.

How do you think Norman is in the Top 7?
He needs lots of improvement!  See Nigel getting minutes over him.  Defensively he can help.  Offensively he is as bad as Derrick Wilson, maybe worse. 

Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2025, 02:09:00 PMImpossible. Viper's BIL said, "No way!"

at least myself, and others, will put it out there for debate. You? Boring and predictable bullshiit. Nothing profound. Always predictable. You being you, I guess. But I will say this, those dentist's were not wrong.

Quote from: tower912 on May 16, 2025, 02:55:48 PMI look at the top seven, Gold, Parham, Lowery, Ross, Owens, SJones, and Norman, and I cannot wait for the season to start.  I look at Burke and Ooze, I mean Hamilton and Clark, and see opportunities and potential.   

The only reasons I see for pessimism is a lack of an obvious back up for Parham, and less experienced players in new roles.   Because of that, I acknowledge the lack of certainty.  I remain optimistic.

See, I look at that lineup and ask myself who the go-to guy is when we need a bucket and the answer is I have no idea. And that's why I'm not optimistic.

Least of my worries. 
A.  Someone almost always emerges.
B.  I can see any of SJones, DO, Royce, Chase creating shots out of a stagnant set, depending on the match up and who is hot. 
C.  If Sean is able to create once he gets in the lane, problem solved.
D. I think Ben stops deferring and starts attacking like his epic dunks on Clingan and Kalkbrenner.

My biggest worry is whether or not Clark and Caedin can combine for 20-25 quality minutes.   If they can, I see twin towers with Ben playing stretch 4 while Royce rests.

The question is do we have a single scorer.

How wide is the Grand Canyon?

Quote from: NCMUFan on May 16, 2025, 09:06:13 PMThe question is do we have a single scorer.

Nope.  Several.

I've said it before.  I think/hope Royce will play the Justin Lewis sophomore year role this year.  This will be like year one of Shaka all over again. 

What secondary talent emerges will he interesting.  Chase, Sean and Ben all have potential to do it in my eyes.  Hopefully Tower is correct and Ben is up to the task.  He needs to hunt his shot this year and drive with confidence.  Would love to have Zaide make a jump but he is truly not giving off even Kam sophomore year vibes yet as the statistics point out.  Hopefully those flashes become more consistent and we get a freshman/sophomore Kam hybrid year out of him. If we get pure sophomore year Kam production it's a bonus.  It would be nice to see DO and one of the fresheman take a step forward as well.  Will be fun to watch.  Nothing to do but watch it play out.

I'll be cautiously optimistic this offseason until I see the product on the floor. 

Quote from: Farley36 on May 16, 2025, 09:11:38 PMHow wide is the Grand Canyon?

As wide as the distances between the logical hoops they needed to jump through needed to consider them a nonprofit

Quote from: tower912 on May 16, 2025, 08:18:00 PMLeast of my worries. 
A.  Someone almost always emerges.
B.  I can see any of SJones, DO, Royce, Chase creating shots out of a stagnant set, depending on the match up and who is hot. 
C.  If Sean is able to create once he gets in the lane, problem solved.
D. I think Ben stops deferring and starts attacking like his epic dunks on Clingan and Kalkbrenner.

My biggest worry is whether or not Clark and Caedin can combine for 20-25 quality minutes.  If they can, I see twin towers with Ben playing stretch 4 while Royce rests.

Many of this might be true, but even it if it is it could still mean a middle of the pack BE team that sits on the wrong side of the bubble.

That might be ok to some, and I guess it's probably ok to me since I just wish Shaka the best at this point and hope that he's here and successful for over a decade, but that doesn't change the likelihood that something is probably still missing.

I read this development aspect and I agree with it to some extent- Shaka has developed guys year in and year out.

However, I've mentioned this before, the guys that became our All Americans had something special about them from the second they stepped onto the court in a Marquette uniform.
That doesn't mean at that time we could've imagined they would be AA's, that's the Shaka development part, it just means that you could see the "special"

Namely-
1- Kam was an elite scorer and bucket getter from day one. Shaka even said so, you'd hear about it early and often and then see it very early on. Shocking the rankings for him were so low. Even now when you watch his HS clips you can just see the kid had a special talent of putting the ball in the basket.

2- Tyler Kolek was one of the best and most talented passers/distributors Marquette had ever seen. The rest of his game was a massive work in progress, and we didn't expect him to be a PG, but it was obvious from year one that he was a special distributor.

As an aside to this, it was also VERY obvious that Jop was a very good scorer, Shaka even said he would lead the BE in scoring so you could argue a bit of a letdown there.
Additionally, it was clear early that Stevie was a high end and nearly elite defensive player.

So, that's 4 guys that you could see from a pretty early stage in their MU careers having a special skill or skills and very elite abilities at the aspect of the game that they excelled at.

That's quite different than what we see currently IMO.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you just don't see that as much from the existing and current crop. Meaning, you just haven't seen the "ELITE" skills that jumped off the page from their infancy.

Now, there are skills present.
-Chase is a very good 2 way player, will likely make an all BE team, but that's not TyKo or Kam level elite and that's ok. He also only has one more season.
-Royce has the projection of some very good to elite offensive skills as a stretch 4. He isn't shy, he's aggressive, and you can see that he could be a solid 3 year starter with AA potential if he develops
-I haven't seent it but I'll trust what others said about Damarius Owens being the next great star at Marquette. It was preseason, he got hurt, so the hope for stardom is still there.
-Zaide has potential to be a good/great two way player in the ilk of Chase. The +- doesn't show it but my eyes show a kid that can defend and has a good form in his shot when confident, he just needs to take the leap and score at all levels and distribute.

So you've got a few young potential "stars" and a few upperclassmen that should/could be All BE type players with proper development.
Then you've got a whole lot of hopeful projects.
I love me some SJ22, but calling him anything other than a hopeful project after that injury and time off is wishful thinking.
I can still hope for a massive Ben leap into All BE territory. I can still hope Tre, Caedin figure it out, Clark utilizes his elite height to become a star, etc etc but those are all hopes.

This also doesn't mean that Shaka can't win without an All American, because I'm sure he can. It just means that the development we hope for here is quite a bit different than that we hoped for in the recent past because we had a few guys that were ELITE and their skills before Shaka got to work.
Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, those elite skills aren't at play as much with what we've currently got.

I will say as I finish this word vomit of a post I realize that the current crop actually does have some elite skills
Ex: SJ22's elite speed, Chase's elite leaping ability, Josh Clark's elite height, Parhams elite ability to not care that he missed a shot (that's not a dig either, Jop had that elite skill too)
They are just different than the types of skills that we were used to before, and that were more predictive of developing a star

Quote from: DoctorV on May 16, 2025, 11:57:39 PMMany of this might be true, but even it if it is it could still mean a middle of the pack BE team that sits on the wrong side of the bubble.

That might be ok to some, and I guess it's probably ok to me since I just wish Shaka the best at this point and hope that he's here and successful for over a decade, but that doesn't change the likelihood that something is probably still missing.

I read this development aspect and I agree with it to some extent- Shaka has developed guys year in and year out.

However, I've mentioned this before, the guys that became our All Americans had something special about them from the second they stepped onto the court in a Marquette uniform.
That doesn't mean at that time we could've imagined they would be AA's, that's the Shaka development part, it just means that you could see the "special"

Namely-
1- Kam was an elite scorer and bucket getter from day one. Shaka even said so, you'd hear about it early and often and then see it very early on. Shocking the rankings for him were so low. Even now when you watch his HS clips you can just see the kid had a special talent of putting the ball in the basket.

2- Tyler Kolek was one of the best and most talented passers/distributors Marquette had ever seen. The rest of his game was a massive work in progress, and we didn't expect him to be a PG, but it was obvious from year one that he was a special distributor.

As an aside to this, it was also VERY obvious that Jop was a very good scorer, Shaka even said he would lead the BE in scoring so you could argue a bit of a letdown there.
Additionally, it was clear early that Stevie was a high end and nearly elite defensive player.

So, that's 4 guys that you could see from a pretty early stage in their MU careers having a special skill or skills and very elite abilities at the aspect of the game that they excelled at.

That's quite different than what we see currently IMO.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you just don't see that as much from the existing and current crop. Meaning, you just haven't seen the "ELITE" skills that jumped off the page from their infancy.

Now, there are skills present.
-Chase is a very good 2 way player, will likely make an all BE team, but that's not TyKo or Kam level elite and that's ok. He also only has one more season.
-Royce has the projection of some very good to elite offensive skills as a stretch 4. He isn't shy, he's aggressive, and you can see that he could be a solid 3 year starter with AA potential if he develops
-I haven't seent it but I'll trust what others said about Damarius Owens being the next great star at Marquette. It was preseason, he got hurt, so the hope for stardom is still there.
-Zaide has potential to be a good/great two way player in the ilk of Chase. The +- doesn't show it but my eyes show a kid that can defend and has a good form in his shot when confident, he just needs to take the leap and score at all levels and distribute.

So you've got a few young potential "stars" and a few upperclassmen that should/could be All BE type players with proper development.
Then you've got a whole lot of hopeful projects.
I love me some SJ22, but calling him anything other than a hopeful project after that injury and time off is wishful thinking.
I can still hope for a massive Ben leap into All BE territory. I can still hope Tre, Caedin figure it out, Clark utilizes his elite height to become a star, etc etc but those are all hopes.

This also doesn't mean that Shaka can't win without an All American, because I'm sure he can. It just means that the development we hope for here is quite a bit different than that we hoped for in the recent past because we had a few guys that were ELITE and their skills before Shaka got to work.
Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, those elite skills aren't at play as much with what we've currently got.

I will say as I finish this word vomit of a post I realize that the current crop actually does have some elite skills
Ex: SJ22's elite speed, Chase's elite leaping ability, Josh Clark's elite height, Parhams elite ability to not care that he missed a shot (that's not a dig either, Jop had that elite skill too)
They are just different than the types of skills that we were used to before, and that were more predictive of developing a star

Tyler looked special the minute he stepped on the floor? Stevie was playing at the end of the 2021 Illinois game, not Kam.

Luv ya, Dr V, but your hindsight feels a little like revisionist history. A fair amount of scoop intelligentsia wanted TKo brought off the bench and the keys handed to SJones on day 1, Kam was a conscience free gunner, Omax fell down too much, Oso couldn't be a Big East center, all while predicting doom every season. 

It is certainly possible that the pieces don't quite mesh or the players take time to fit into their new roles.  THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN FOR ALMOST EVERY TEAM EVERY SEASON FOR ETERNITY.   Our Big East brethren will average 8 new players to their rosters/programs this coming season.  By and large, they are going to have parallel challenges of fit and new roles.  A whole lot would have to go right for another F'em season for MU.  But IMO, normal growth and development and good health for the players MU has leads to a record similar to last season.

Quote from: Viper on May 16, 2025, 07:13:36 PMat least myself, and others, will put it out there for debate. You? Boring and predictable bullshiit. Nothing profound. Always predictable. You being you, I guess. But I will say this, those dentist's were not wrong.

What debate do you think you're having that hasn't been had a millions times already here?

Quote from: The Sultan on May 17, 2025, 07:57:52 AMWhat debate do you think you're having that hasn't been had a millions times already here?

Also, it's been well-documented the dentists were always wrong.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 17, 2025, 08:00:06 AMAlso, it's been well-documented the dentists were always wrong.

Viper hasn't been wrong since once the glory days of those Chones / Alcindor match ups.

Quote from: The Sultan on May 17, 2025, 08:04:50 AMViper hasn't been wrong since once the glory days of those Chones / Alcindor match ups.

The gap between UCLA and Marquette got wider and wider after Chones left and took a job that required him paying taxes

Quote from: NCMUFan on May 16, 2025, 09:06:13 PMThe question is do we have a single scorer.

Parham has a scorers mentality for sure and a skill set around the basket and from 3 to do it. 

Ross with a now healthy shooting hand should be better and good for around 14 a game. 

The rest a bunch of question marks.  Except Norman, which, yeah.  Not happening.

Hopefully the better stats that Kam, Tyler and even Stevie had than last years sophomores were mainly due to the fact that they (Kam, Tyler and Stevie) had to play and get minutes.  Whereas Zaide was behind Kam and Chase.  Hard to get the time to show your full ability that way.  We shall see. 

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 17, 2025, 08:11:09 AMThe gap between UCLA and Marquette got wider and wider after Chones left and took a job that required him paying taxes

Hope he had good advisors.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4MJZh9aMLG7Dp4c6o7TgRN6ao5aF8uwHcfw&s)

Quote from: tower912 on May 17, 2025, 06:36:45 AMLuv ya, Dr V, but your hindsight feels a little like revisionist history. A fair amount of scoop intelligentsia wanted TKo brought off the bench and the keys handed to SJones on day 1, Kam was a conscience free gunner, Omax fell down too much, Oso couldn't be a Big East center, all while predicting doom every season. 

It is certainly possible that the pieces don't quite mesh or the players take time to fit into their new roles.  THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN FOR ALMOST EVERY TEAM EVERY SEASON FOR ETERNITY.   Our Big East brethren will average 8 new players to their rosters/programs this coming season.  By and large, they are going to have parallel challenges of fit and new roles.  A whole lot would have to go right for another F'em season for MU.  But IMO, normal growth and development and good health for the players MU has leads to a record similar to last season.

Folks complain about all kinds of things.

Tyler couldn't shoot for shite, and Kam had to be reigned in a bit.

My main and only point is that both of those guys had a very visible and obvious elite skill from the get go. Despite them needing to improve to become AAs, it was obvious they had a special talent.

Another poster mentioned that TyKo wasn't as obvious from the start, but the way I remember it is that you could tell immediately that he had special court vision, and it was a head scratcher why he was such a brutal shooter. He fixed that, but the passing ability and vision was always elite.

Again this doesn't mean that guys can't and won't improve and gel as a sum of parts that's much greater as a whole, with enough athletic ability and defensive prowess as a group to make it work into a very good team.
It just means that I haven't quite seen the elite skills I saw in those immediately before them, not just yet at least

Quote from: DoctorV on May 17, 2025, 12:55:53 PMFolks complain about all kinds of things.

Tyler couldn't shoot for shite, and Kam had to be reigned in a bit.

My main and only point is that both of those guys had a very visible and obvious elite skill from the get go. Despite them needing to improve to become AAs, it was obvious they had a special talent.

Another poster mentioned that TyKo wasn't as obvious from the start, but the way I remember it is that you could tell immediately that he had special court vision, and it was a head scratcher why he was such a brutal shooter. He fixed that, but the passing ability and vision was always elite.

Again this doesn't mean that guys can't and won't improve and gel as a sum of parts that's much greater as a whole, with enough athletic ability and defensive prowess as a group to make it work into a very good team.
It just means that I haven't quite seen the elite skills I saw in those immediately before them, not just yet at least

Did you notice that Tyler, Kam, and Stevie were not particularly athletic, Oso was a Wojo afterthought, and OMax barely played for Clemson? There's uncertainty every year. On the positive side, the roster next season will easily be the most athletic during Shaka's tenure at MU.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 17, 2025, 08:00:06 AMAlso, it's been well-documented the dentists were always wrong.

You must have been over charged for the root canals you didn't need.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on May 17, 2025, 03:52:33 PMYou must have been over charged for the root canals you didn't need.

I don't believe in modern medicine, so I haven't been to the dentist in years.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 17, 2025, 04:31:14 PMI don't believe in modern medicine, so I haven't been to the dentist in years.

Dentistry is pretty much like alchemy.

Quote from: The Sultan on May 17, 2025, 05:22:11 PMDentistry is pretty much like alchemy.

Toothpaste is the same stuff they use in chemtrails

Quote from: Viper on May 16, 2025, 07:13:36 PMat least myself, and others, will put it out there for debate. You? Boring and predictable bullshiit. Nothing profound. Always predictable. You being you, I guess. But I will say this, those dentist's were not wrong.

I don't remember too many "profound" takes on your part, but OK if you say so.

And yes, Scoop does miss the dentists' profound takes on Crean sucking, aina?

I remember Scoop thinking Chase would be MU's next NBA player his freshman year. I don't recall that being the thoughts on Kam, Kolek, or Oso their first year at MU. A select few posters though OMax had that potential.

So the idea that everyone saw Oso, Stevie, Jop, Kolek, and OMax as special players from day 1 while nobody sees any special skills with returners is just revisionist history.

Quote from: wadesworld on May 17, 2025, 07:38:40 PMI remember Scoop thinking Chase would be MU's next NBA player his freshman year. I don't recall that being the thoughts on Kam, Kolek, or Oso their first year at MU. A select few posters though OMax had that potential.

So the idea that everyone saw Oso, Stevie, Jop, Kolek, and OMax as special players from day 1 while nobody sees any special skills with returners is just revisionist history.

In fairness, Goose saw "special" in TK very early, and maybe a couple others did, too.

Of course, Goose also thought Gold would be Marquette's next NBAer, and was just hoping he'd be at MU for at least 2 seasons before going pro.

None of us bat 1.000 on these things.

My favorite things about Goose were our early agreement on TKo's upside, OMax's NBA potential, and being the only two on the Ben Gold bandwagon.

Quote from: tower912 on May 17, 2025, 08:46:38 PMMy favorite things about Goose were our early agreement on TKo's upside, OMax's NBA potential, and being the only two on the Ben Gold bandwagon.

Ahem

Where is Goose?

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 17, 2025, 11:40:31 PMAhem

Fair.

Quote from: DoctorV on May 18, 2025, 06:55:44 AMWhere is Goose?

Was caught up in the permabans a few months ago

Quote from: tower912 on May 17, 2025, 08:46:38 PMMy favorite things about Goose were our early agreement on TKo's upside, OMax's NBA potential, and being the only two on the Ben Gold bandwagon.

Yes, you and TAMU, forgive me for not including you on the early "TK will be a star" group ... though I did say "maybe a couple others." I guess you two are that lovely couple!

I thought Kolek had exceptional court vision and basketball IQ. But I was one of a few Scoopers who also thought it was obvious that he had to shoot much better, develop a float game and go to his right more to take his game - and Marquette - to the next level. Looking at what he did his last two seasons, I feel comfortable with that assessment.

Gold is better than a lot of Scoopers portray him to be IMHO. If he had made himself available in the portal, there would have been no shortage of high majors going after him. But I'm not yet seeing the consistency and depth to his shooting that would be his only possible ticket to the NBA. Right now, he is Novak Ultra Lite. We'd all love nothing more than to see Gold have a senior season anything remotely like Novak's!

Quote from: tower912 on May 16, 2025, 09:14:36 PMNope.  Several.

So if every starter and bench player only scored two points per game you would be happy?

No.  And how did you arrive at that? 

You didn't seem to qualify and neither did I.

Quote from: NCMUFan on May 18, 2025, 01:49:23 PMYou didn't seem to qualify and neither did I.

His response didn't really need a qualifier.  Your response just doesn't make sense.

Quote from: MU82 on May 18, 2025, 12:09:48 PMRight now, he is Novak Ultra Lite. We'd all love nothing more than to see Gold have a senior season anything remotely like Novak's!

Ultra Lite seems like a bit of an understatement here.

Talking about elite skills, Steve was one of the best pure shooters in NCAA hx.
It was very obvious early on that he would be one of the best shooters in Marquette history.
If Ben shoots 10% worse from 3 as a senior as Novak did, most would be pretty happy. That's how big the gap is.

Now, if Bennys other "potential skills" pick up maybe they can be discussed in the same breath, but boy would he have to show a big improvement

 

Quote from: DoctorV on May 18, 2025, 04:47:25 PMUltra Lite seems like a bit of an understatement here.

Talking about elite skills, Steve was one of the best pure shooters in NCAA hx.
It was very obvious early on that he would be one of the best shooters in Marquette history.
If Ben shoots 10% worse from 3 as a senior as Novak did, most would be pretty happy. That's how big the gap is.

Now, if Bennys other "potential skills" pick up maybe they can be discussed in the same breath, but boy would he have to show a big improvement

 

Ben already shot less than 10% worse from 3 as a junior than what Novak shot as a senior.

Quote from: wadesworld on May 18, 2025, 09:08:22 PMBen already shot less than 10% worse from 3 as a junior than what Novak shot as a senior.

Yup, and I'd be pretty happy if he can duplicate it.

If he can break 40% I'd be absolutely ecstatic.

As we've seen this past season, more responsibility, both offensively and defensively, doesn't necessarily mean improved shooting.

It is funny how two seemingly opposite things can be true at the same time.  More responsibility can lead to poorer shooting AND becoming an all American.

Quote from: DoctorV on May 18, 2025, 09:30:02 PMYup, and I'd be pretty happy if he can duplicate it.

Interesting. I thought you weren't happy with Gold's production last season, but maybe I confused you with other Scoopers.

If Gold can average 10 and 7 while again shooting 37%+ from 3 to keep defenses honest, all while playing the kind of solid D he did most of this past season, I will consider his 2025-26 season a huge success.

Quote from: MU82 on May 19, 2025, 09:26:42 AMInteresting. I thought you weren't happy with Gold's production last season, but maybe I confused you with other Scoopers.

If Gold can average 10 and 7 while again shooting 37%+ from 3 to keep defenses honest, all while playing the kind of solid D he did most of this past season, I will consider his 2025-26 season a huge success.

I wasn't early on, but I grew to accept what he was giving.

I think part of it is that my expectations just dropped- I was never a huge BG2NBA guy but I wasn't for OMax either and he proved me wrong.
I think the other part is that he's just a good kid, and I was pulling for him to succeed.

At the end of the day you just realize that he's part of Shaka's system, where you learn the ropes and then are counted on to step up into a bigger role as an upperclassman. He did that, but maybe what we saw is just his ceiling.

As Tower pointed out- Kam's shooting drastically declined but he became an AA and was a pretty good PG.
In the same realm- Jops shooting drastically declined but he became a much better all around defender and rebounder.


Unfortunately, those were our two best shooters so that decline was part of the late fade and first rd exit.
You could argue that in that sense, maybe another pg or another big to help keep Jop in his microwave scorer/3P specialist role woulda helped...

Shaka is learning right alongside the rest of us. I'd be happy with what you mentioned for Benny as a Sr as well, but I'm sure many expected better numbers.
Or maybe he can shoot like Novak as a senior,  take Marquette to a FF, make the NBA and put this all to rest

Woulda been nice if the Novak-led 2006 MU team had matched your last sentence. But unfortunately, as great a shooter as he was, he didn't do anything special and Marquette lost in the first round to Alabama.

My only prediction about Gold is that he'll continue to improve, as he did each of the last couple of years. His improvement to date hasn't been at an Oso-level pace, but few players at any school improve at that kind of trajectory.

CBS Sports has moved St. John's to number 1 in their top 26 poll.

Bringing this news in case you want to change your vote.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 28, 2025, 12:30:51 PMCBS Sports has moved St. John's to number 1 in their top 26 poll.

Bringing this news in case you want to change your vote.

Its amazing how much more Pitino has accomplished than Shaka by using the portal when you compare their first two years. :)

Quote from: Viper on May 16, 2025, 08:53:48 AMthe Marquette roster as we know it to be for 2025/26 is close to StJ's and UConn, in your opinion? Care to explain? Imo, no MU player is a top 6 player for Pitino. Do I think StJ's runs the BE? Wouldn't surprise me if they did.

Getting to this thread late but I would say several of MUs players would be equal or above St. John's starting six - Sanon, Ian Jackson, Sellers - none of them I would take above Chase Ross of Sean Jones.  I will put my stake in the ground - Ross will be an AA, Sean Jones will be an all Big East player - he appears to be 100% back.  Why would you take someone Like Iam Jackson who had a mediocre to bad year last year over Zaide Lowery?  Because once he was a 5 star?  St. Johns is rolling the dice alot more than Marquette - they are getting a huge "Pitino" bounce IMO - they have very little proven talent - as in on court success.  Hoskins is a huge question mark. Ejiofor is good - will he be better than Gold this coming season?  Maybe but maybe not.. Ya never know how injuries will play out, maybe Shaka gets out coached, but as someone mentioned our starting five would have gotten alot of offers if they had gone portalling. Imo we are competing for the title on paper.  We'll see how it goes...

Quote from: milwaukee expat on May 28, 2025, 04:16:30 PMGetting to this thread late but I would say several of MUs players would be equal or above St. John's starting six - Sanon, Ian Jackson, Sellers - none of them I would take above Chase Ross of Sean Jones.  I will put my stake in the ground - Ross will be an AA, Sean Jones will be an all Big East player - he appears to be 100% back.  Why would you take someone Like Iam Jackson who had a mediocre to bad year last year over Zaide Lowery?  Because once he was a 5 star?  St. Johns is rolling the dice alot more than Marquette - they are getting a huge "Pitino" bounce IMO - they have very little proven talent - as in on court success.  Hoskins is a huge question mark. Ejiofor is good - will he be better than Gold this coming season?  Maybe but maybe not.. Ya never know how injuries will play out, maybe Shaka gets out coached, but as someone mentioned our starting five would have gotten alot of offers if they had gone portalling. Imo we are competing for the title on paper.  We'll see how it goes...

I'm a shameless optimist and this is making me blush. I think we could be better than St. John's...but questioning if Ejiofor is better than Gold or putting Sean Jones above their starting lineup...

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 28, 2025, 12:30:51 PMCBS Sports has moved St. John's to number 1 in their top 26 poll.

Bringing this news in case you want to change your vote.

Seeing this feels like Gary Parish is doing his best Rico impression.

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 29, 2025, 06:29:45 AMSeeing this feels like Gary Parish is doing his best Rico impression.

The gap IS WIDENING

Can St John's really be #1 with 4 new starters? I think there needs to be a teams with returning players ranking.

May rankings.  SJU in the media hub of the country with a tremendous promoter, as well as tremendous coach, is getti g love because the made big splash in the portal.   It is understandable and irrelevant.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 29, 2025, 07:01:19 AMThe gap IS WIDENING

Agree. Marquette just keeps opening up a bigger excellence gap over the rest of the league.

The biggest gap that everybody knows about on this board is the one between Reekers ears.
Start the Nuclear eruption in 3...2...1...

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2025, 03:14:19 PMThe biggest gap that everybody knows about on this board is the one between Reekers ears.
Start the Nuclear eruption in 3...2...1...

True enlightenment falls gracefully from your lips, like guano from a diarrhetic condor, Dung Willie

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2025, 03:14:19 PMThe biggest gap that everybody knows about on this board is the one between Reekers ears.
Start the Nuclear eruption in 3...2...1...

Thanks, Wingdings.

It is a large gap.  Filled with many wonders.  At least it is not narrow and closed.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 31, 2025, 05:15:44 PMThanks, Wingdings.

Man, he got you. That was a sick burn. You going to be ok?

It'll be difficult to recover from that one.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 31, 2025, 06:32:14 PMMan, he got you. That was a sick burn. You going to be ok?

It'll be difficult to recover from that one.

I haven't been a fan since 1848 like him

Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 31, 2025, 06:34:22 PMI haven't been a fan since 1848 like him

Where is your pennant?

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 31, 2025, 06:37:04 PMWhere is your pennant?

Not in the basement, I can tell you that