MUScoop

Some people want a banger 5 and 3-pt shooters.
As soon as we change the team to that and get a couple good whippings by a quick athletic team, some fans will be crying, "Why don't we have quick athletic players?!"

every board of every team complains about stuff.80 percent of the board is happy with Shaka so far. It's the nature of anonymous online sports forums. Ur post is redundant :)

Quote from: NCMUFan on March 22, 2025, 08:17:55 PMSome people want a banger 5 and 3-pt shooters.
As soon as we change the team to that and get a couple good whippings by a quick athletic team, some fans will be crying, "Why don't we have quick athletic players?!"

Not sure why we can't have both.  Right now, compared to many teams I've been watching for the last 3 days, we have neither.

Quote from: NCMUFan on March 22, 2025, 08:17:55 PMSome people want a banger 5 and 3-pt shooters.
As soon as we change the team to that and get a couple good whippings by a quick athletic team, some fans will be crying, "Why don't we have quick athletic players?!"

I've asked this question at least 2500 times for about a decade.  Get guys with zoomability and handles.  Get guys with muscle and hops.  Get guys that can lace the triple.  Get guys that usurp rebounds all over the floor.  Get guys that are unflappable and own crunch time.  This would make me exceedingly happy and it absolutely should be taken care of and quickly.

Give us all of it! We want all of the guys. The best 5 in the country  ;D

If you want to be happy with fifth place in a mediocre Big East and a first-round loss to a double-digit seed, nobody is stopping you.

Nm

And if you want to mope about a 23 win season, that is your right.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 22, 2025, 08:45:10 PMIf you want to be happy with fifth place in a mediocre Big East and a first-round loss to a double-digit seed, nobody is stopping you.

If this was every season, I'd be pretty down on Shaka. Coming off two years of two seeds, I'm at peace with it.

I vote change the season to two months.

Nm

Quote from: cheebs09 on March 22, 2025, 08:57:15 PMIf this was every season, I'd be pretty down on Shaka. Coming off two years of two seeds, I'm at peace with it.

It's OK to be happy with Shaka overall and unhappy with the season he just produced.

No.

Quote from: Jay Bee on March 22, 2025, 08:59:21 PMI vote change the season to two months.

Less conflicts with pickleball season for sure.

I am nearly always at peace.  Namaste.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:36:26 PMI've asked this question at least 2500 times for about a decade.  Get guys with zoomability and handles.  Get guys with muscle and hops.  Get guys that can lace the triple.  Get guys that usurp rebounds all over the floor.  Get guys that are unflappable and own crunch time.  This would make me exceedingly happy and it absolutely should be taken care of and quickly.

I, too, want 4 top 25 draft picks.

This years team was under sized (evergreen MU quality), slow and didn't shoot well.  I'd gladly take 2 out of 3. 

I'm not sure if many people will be happy the next 2 rebuilding years without transfers and then the 3rd year Shaka will be telling his story walking

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:36:26 PMI've asked this question at least 2500 times for about a decade.  Get guys with zoomability and handles.  Get guys with muscle and hops.  Get guys that can lace the triple.  Get guys that usurp rebounds all over the floor.  Get guys that are unflappable and own crunch time. This would make me exceedingly happy and it absolutely should be taken care of and quickly.

I'm on it Muggsy. Is tomorrow by noon soon enough? Anything to make you exceedingly happy.
                                     ;D  ;D  ;D

MU fans have been inordinately patient.  2027 is our 50 year anniversary and we haven't been to a F4 in 22 years.  It's time to get some freaking ballers with the attributes I've listed above. It's a moral imperative and absolutely doable. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:24:57 PMMU fans have been inordinately patient.  2027 is our 50 year anniversary and we haven't been to a F4 in 22 years.  It's time to get some freaking ballers with the attributes I've listed above. It's a moral imperative and absolutely doable. 

Man time flies when you're having fun...

Muggsy how many would you like to see brought in? How many would you like to see sent off?

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:36:26 PMI've asked this question at least 2500 times for about a decade.  Get guys with zoomability and handles.  Get guys with muscle and hops.  Get guys that can lace the triple.  Get guys that usurp rebounds all over the floor.  Get guys that are unflappable and own crunch time.  This would make me exceedingly happy and it absolutely should be taken care of and quickly.

Oh, so you want good basketball players.  Shaka doesn't.  Any other silly advice?  Perhaps if you were to go looking for a new car you'd want one with tires, a steering wheel, and an engine?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 22, 2025, 10:36:41 PMOh, so you want good basketball players.  Shaka doesn't.  Any other silly advice?  Perhaps if you were to go looking for a new car you'd want one with tires, a steering wheel, and an engine?

It's not silly advice. As he clearly stated in his next post, it's a "moral imperative".

Quote from: DoctorV on March 22, 2025, 10:29:07 PMMan time flies when you're having fun...

Muggsy how many would you like to see brought in? How many would you like to see sent off?

How many ballers?  For next year?  4 probably. 

Quote from: Pakuni on March 22, 2025, 08:45:10 PMIf you want to be happy with fifth place in a mediocre Big East and a first-round loss to a double-digit seed, nobody is stopping you.

If that's our down year? Yeah, I'll be happy with that.

This fanbase is so full of whiny, unrealistic babies.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 22, 2025, 08:45:10 PMIf you want to be happy with fifth place in a mediocre Big East and a first-round loss to a double-digit seed, nobody is stopping you.

Very debatable if mediocre is best description.  Sitting here tonight, looks very doubtful one team makes the second weekend.  After one team seeded better than a 7.  Hard to describe that as mediocre. 

It is unusual a fanbase's displeasure after a 5-8 record from Feb 1 until the end of the season, with two of those wins coming at home against Seton Hall and DePaul.  You just can't please some people.  High time these unrealistic expectations are tempered down.

I avoided scoop after the loss and havnt read anything after but I can safely say we don't have enough white point guards who take charges

I've stopped caring about regular season success, which is problematic.

I care about 3 teams, Twins, Vikings, and Warriors.  All of them often have great regular seasons, only to completely fail in the post-season.

It's all Arby's at this point.

Quote from: wadesworld on March 22, 2025, 11:14:42 PMIf that's our down year? Yeah, I'll be happy with that.

This fanbase is so full of whiny, unrealistic babies.

Is that our down year? Or what about next year.

No

Quote from: wadesworld on March 22, 2025, 11:14:42 PMIf that's our down year? Yeah, I'll be happy with that.

This fanbase is so full of whiny, unrealistic babies.

None more whiny than those who whine about other fans.

It's OK to acknowledge that Shaka didn't do his best work this year. He admitted as much himself. Doesn't mean you want him fired (I don't). Doesn't mean he's on the hot seat (he's not). Doesn't mean you're not thrilled with the overall body of his work (I am).
It doesn't make you a bad fan and it's not whining to give an honest assessment of the past season.

If you choose not to do that and give Shaka a pass on this year, that's fine. Fan however you want to fan.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 07:47:19 AMNone more whiny than those who whine about other fans.

Nah.  None more whiny than whiny fans who get called out for being whiny and then make their accusers point for them.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 08:02:33 AMNah.  None more whiny than whiny fans who get called out for being whiny and then make their accusers point for them.

Passive aggressive people speak from their hearts abundance, don't they. 

 I flat out say openly and clearly that I don't like whining.  That is my heart's abundance.  I do not like cheerless and fearful.  Also, my heart's abundance.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 08:02:33 AMNah.  None more whiny than whiny fans who get called out for being whiny and then make their accusers point for them.

What have I written that's whiny, tower?
Examples, please.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 08:10:06 AMI flat out say openly and clearly that I don't like whining.  That is my heart's abundance.  I do not like cheerless and fearful.  Also, my heart's abundance.

In your typical passive aggressive manner posing as benevolent.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 08:10:06 AMI flat out say openly and clearly that I don't like whining.  That is my heart's abundance.  I do not like cheerless and fearful.  Also, my heart's abundance.

Tower-

Marquette fans deserve better than what they have gotten.  It's ok to admit the Shaka era is an error and we cut bait sooner than later.  We are trending down and the players he has recruited just aren't good enough for the fans who demand excellence.

You find joy in the journey and the process when the only joy comes from winning.  Fans pour their heart and souls into the team with an over abundance of enthusiasm and positivity.  They deserve the wins more than the team in true actuality.

Some of have been fans since Tex Winters was here.  That's a really long time!  They'll be dead soon and they won't have a second national championship they deserve for their loyalty.  That is sad.

Well done.

Quote from: tower912 on March 22, 2025, 08:51:38 PMAnd if you want to mope about a 23 win season, that is your right.

And if you want to dissemble this flame out season as successful, that is your right. Others want and expect better than 5th in conference and one and done in Dance. MUCH BETTER Maybe next year, or will there be more falling back? We need some studs.

Quote from: JakeBarnes on March 22, 2025, 09:04:44 PMNo.

Post of the thread. Could've shut it down at this point.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:48:50 PMHow many ballers?  For next year?  4 probably. 

Have to agree with Muggsy here. Perhaps some of the 4 coming in will be studs. We will find out early because some will need to play.

I'm unhappy we didn't go out and get more help in the off season for an all American guard and two seniors who poured their heart and soul into this team and university.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 07:47:19 AMNone more whiny than those who whine about other fans.

It's OK to acknowledge that Shaka didn't do his best work this year. He admitted as much himself. Doesn't mean you want him fired (I don't). Doesn't mean he's on the hot seat (he's not). Doesn't mean you're not thrilled with the overall body of his work (I am).
It doesn't make you a bad fan and it's not whining to give an honest assessment of the past season.

If you choose not to do that and give Shaka a pass on this year, that's fine. Fan however you want to fan.

Has anybody here said this was Shaka's best year? You aren't okay finishing 4th in the Big East, a 7 seed in the Tournament, and a first round exit ever. You sound like a whiny baby, given that that never has been some kind of unacceptable year in the last 50 years of the program. If that's the highlight year for a coach? Sure. But this is the lowlight of Shaka's time here, assuming fans are reasonable enough to understand that getting a team to the Tourney in year 1 was an accomplishment and not something to be "unhappy" about. Then again, we're probably all CoS if we were okay with those results too.

According to Scoop, this is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?) MU has made the Tournament 4 years in a row. And it's been Shaka's first 4 seasons. People asking if we "have to be happy" with a 7 seed and questioning the identity of the MU program because we had a "down" year sound like whiny babies. Of course I'd love to be a 2 seed or better every year, and outperform that 2 seed every year. That's unrealistic as can be. We're not Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, etc., and those programs even have "down" years.

Was our season one to celebrate? Not really. But if this is what a down year is for Shaka is that something to be happy about? Unless you like being miserable, yes. This is an awesome down year for the program. Sorry you don't like that but it's absurd to pretend our program is above being a 7 seed or finishing tied for 4th in the Big East sometimes.

Will Arby's ever open at the Fiserv?

MU has made the tournament more than 4 season in a row.  3 amigos first season (2 NCAA tourney wins in 4 years for them, by the way) until Buzz's final season.  The 98 wins in 4 seasons is the best since the McGuire years.
   And, to be fair, going back to the early days of message boards in general and scoop specifically, fans and posters have never been satisfied.
 Crean couldn't recruit bigs, had a playbookk full of plays and only ran a 3 man weave, and was clueless against a zone.  Then he had the gall to leave.
  Buzz was shady, never installed the offense until a few games into the season, relied too heavily on JUCO's at the expense of high schoolers.
  Wojo never outgrew his Duke roots, couldn't recruit athletic switchables, couldn't coach defense, couldn't adjust.
 
Nothing has changed.   Posters criticizing the coach and each other.  The circle of life.

Quote from: wadesworld on March 23, 2025, 08:48:57 AMHas anybody here said this was Shaka's best year? You aren't okay finishing 4th in the Big East, a 7 seed in the Tournament, and a first round exit ever. You sound like a whiny baby, given that that never has been some kind of unacceptable year in the last 50 years of the program. If that's the highlight year for a coach? Sure. But this is the lowlight of Shaka's time here, assuming fans are reasonable enough to understand that getting a team to the Tourney in year 1 was an accomplishment and not something to be "unhappy" about. Then again, we're probably all CoS if we were okay with those results too.

According to Scoop, this is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?) MU has made the Tournament 4 years in a row. And it's been Shaka's first 4 seasons. People asking if we "have to be happy" with a 7 seed and questioning the identity of the MU program because we had a "down" year sound like whiny babies. Of course I'd love to be a 2 seed or better every year, and outperform that 2 seed every year. That's unrealistic as can be. We're not Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, etc., and those programs even have "down" years.

Was our season one to celebrate? Not really. But if this is what a down year is for Shaka is that something to be happy about? Unless you like being miserable, yes. This is an awesome down year for the program. Sorry you don't like that but it's absurd to pretend our program is above being a 7 seed or finishing tied for 4th in the Big East sometimes.

You're ranting about a bunch of stuff I never wrote.

Being happy with the results isn't what makes you CoS. What makes you CoS is that you respond with personal attacks and namecalling to even the mildest of criticism of anything he does. It's f--cking weird, dude.

The longest tournament streaks for Marquette are 10 (71-80), 8 (06-13), and 4 (22-25).  Al and Hank would've had a streak of 13 straight had they accepted the bid in 1970. 

Only Buzz and Shaka made the tournament in their first four years.  But Buzz inherited a program that was loaded and made three straight tournaments under Crean. 

Quote from: BLWarrior91 on March 23, 2025, 09:27:20 AMThe longest tournament streaks for Marquette are 10 (71-80), 8 (06-13), and 4 (22-25).  Al and Hank would've had a streak of 13 straight had they accepted the bid in 1970. 

Only Buzz and Shaka made the tournament in their first four years.  But Buzz inherited a program that was loaded and made three straight tournaments under Crean. 

Got it. Thank you.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 09:06:59 AMYou're ranting about a bunch of stuff I never wrote.

Being happy with the results isn't what makes you CoS. What makes you CoS is that you respond with personal attacks and namecalling to even the mildest of criticism of anything he does. It's f--cking weird, dude.

If you're offended by being called a baby then stop whining like a baby over what was a good but not great season.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 09:03:46 AMMU has made the tournament more than 4 season in a row.  3 amigos first season (2 NCAA tourney wins I 4 years for them, by the way) until Bizz's final season.  The 98 wins in 4 seasons is the best since the McGuire years.
   And, to be fair, going back to the early days of message boards in general and scoop specifically, fans and posters have never been satisfied.
 Crean couldn't recruit bigs, had a playback full of plays and only ran a 3 man weave, and was clueless against a zone.  Then he had the gall to leave.
  Buzz was shady, never installed the offense until a few games into the season, relied too heavily on JUCO's at the expense of high schoolers.
  Wojo never outgrew his Duke roots, couldn't recruit athletic switchables, couldn't coach defense, couldn't adjust.
 
Nothing has changed.   Posters criticizing the coach and each other.  The circle of life.

Good point - unrelenting universal defense of a coach can do no wrong has been around forever - what were QoS and Wojo-slurpers called during the Crean and Buzz era?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 08:27:34 AMTower-

Marquette fans deserve better than what they have gotten.  It's ok to admit the Shaka era is an error and we cut bait sooner than later.  We are trending down and the players he has recruited just aren't good enough for the fans who demand excellence.

You find joy in the journey and the process when the only joy comes from winning.  Fans pour their heart and souls into the team with an over abundance of enthusiasm and positivity.  They deserve the wins more than the team in true actuality.

Some of have been fans since Tex Winters was here.  That's a really long time!  They'll be dead soon and they won't have a second national championship they deserve for their loyalty.  That is sad.

How many fans actually can go back to when Tex Winters was coaching here?  I'm sure there are a few, but not too many.

A friend of mine signed with Marquette before Tex Winters left to go to Kansas State and Tex asked to join him at Kansas State.  He had his 90th birthday in December. He stayed with Marquette and became a 3 year starter playing on an elite 8 team.

I think this season is difficult to reconcile.

MU goes through a gauntlet in the non-conference, ultimately playing five tournament teams (with seed lines of nine or better) and goes 4-1. That included a three game stretch at Maryland, home Purdue, neutral Georgia. Consensus top 10 team.

They get into Big East play, and end up going 3-7 versus tournament teams. No major injuries to speak of, and the eye test going into March just wasn't great.

With 3 outstanding senior guards, all graduating, it probably was this past offseason to get a big in the portal. Shaka stuck to his guns, and for some it's frustrating to not see more development out of his recruits.

Is it realistic for MU to be a 2 seed every year? No, absolutely not, that'd be a ridiculous expectation. Will there be a down season every now and then? Sure, of course. Is it frustrating when MU is a top 10 team for half a season and whimpers out of the tournament? Yes.

Going forward, how does MU build off these last four years? The administration gives the resources to the program (MU spends the 4th most in the country on men's basketball, and that number no longer reflects Wojo's buyout). I understand some are happy with this season's outcome on the whole (totally get it) and some wondering what happened the second half of this year and where do we go from here.

Quote from: wadesworld on March 23, 2025, 09:32:10 AMIf you're offended by being called a baby then stop whining like a baby over what was a good but not great season.

I'm not offended. I just think fan policing is lame, especially when the best you can do is call people names.

But let's try something a little more constructive than kneejerk insults. Specifically what criticism have I written here that is inaccurate or unfair, and why?

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 23, 2025, 09:44:54 AMHow many fans actually can go back to when Tex Winters was coaching here?  I'm sure there are a few, but not too many.

A friend of mine signed with Marquette before Tex Winters left to go to Kansas State and Tex asked to join him at Kansas State.  He had his 90th birthday in December. He stayed with Marquette and became a 3 year starter playing on an elite 8 team.

That's badass!  Didn't Tex Winter invent the triangle and two?

Quote from: wadesworld on March 22, 2025, 11:14:42 PMIf that's our down year? Yeah, I'll be happy with that.

This fanbase is so full of whiny, unrealistic babies.

It's not that unrealistic. Jay wright did it. Mark fews doing it. Baylor dudes doing it

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 23, 2025, 10:27:02 AMThat's badass!  Didn't Tex Winter invent the triangle and two?

Triangle offense. Triangle and two is a type of defense.

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 23, 2025, 09:44:54 AMHow many fans actually can go back to when Tex Winters was coaching here?  I'm sure there are a few, but not too many.

A friend of mine signed with Marquette before Tex Winters left to go to Kansas State and Tex asked to join him at Kansas State.  He had his 90th birthday in December. He stayed with Marquette and became a 3 year starter playing on an elite 8 team.

I go back to Ed Hickey and Don Kojis. Seen it all.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 23, 2025, 09:41:02 AMGood point - unrelenting universal defense of a coach can do no wrong has been around forever - what were QoS and Wojo-slurpers called during the Crean and Buzz era?

I have been called a Crean apologist, a Buzz slurper, a Projo.  I belly laughed through all of them.

I root for MU.  I want their coaches to succeed.  I have criticized or been skeptical of all of them.  No coach is or has ever been perfect. 

Yea overall this was just a tough season to see coming.

It was a perfect storm of unexpected overachievement early, followed by a much worse than expected slide late and here we are...

It's easy to look at it and point fingers, to blame the offense under Coach Nevada, the roster construction and lack of portal additions by Coach Shaka, and so on and so forth.

The thing is, at the end of the day- and this is in no way to knock the guardians after their amazing careers- Shaka could have never expected the regression that he got from the 3 seniors towards the last few months of the season.
Kam and Joplins shooting from 3 in particular was a staggering collapse. Jop showed up in the dance but this was a season long struggle compared to years past. Stevie just didn't seem himself for several reasons.
In a similar fashion last season Shaka could've never expected Oso to not play up to his standards in the post season.

When you have a system based nearly solely on upper classman leadership, responsibility, and growth to stardom it's very tough to overcome when those guys aren't at their peak.
It's also great when they are at their peak, which we've seen for several seasons in long stretches.

The next part becomes "well when you started to realize there was a problem did you adjust?"
Shaka tried, he went thru a stretch where he played the underclassmen a bunch, to some decent results, and everyone got hopeful that they could contribute.
Then the end of the season came and he returned to his tried and true method of only playing his core, essentially limiting bench usage to the bare minimum, and that didn't help.
-How about changing the offense a bit? Well imo this could've helped some, and I'm sure he considered it but probably thought it would be too tough mid season. He hoped there would be a shooting regression to the mean.

Then there's the "ok well why does it seem like this is happening repeatedly?" part.
-Is it because you're taking guys that have become very good in their roles, eg Joplin as a sharp shooting 6th man or 3&D type of starter, and pushing them to something bigger? Kam was a fine pg this season, All American, but I'd bet that Shaka really regrets not bringing in another pass first pg. Two of the main reasons for Kam and Jops 3p regression had to be TyKos departure and heavier legs due to more responsibility.
-Is it because of over-usage and over-reliance and responsibility placed on these seniors?
-Is it pure dumb luck?
-Is it a mental thing, where both coach and players press themselves so much that they fold under pressure?

There is a lot to unpack in the offseason for Shaka. None of the above even mentions the continued rebounding and getting bullied by the better teams on the schedule issue, or the perceived lack of outside shooting threat issue.
Chase, Ben, Zaide shot decent percentages and Parham/Owens seem like they will be able to shoot ok so we will see. As for the rebounding, bigger length looms (the skinny variety) and if that length can stay on the court it should help a bit on the glass.

Then there is the uncertainty at pg issue...
After typing this I think I need a cocktail and after reading it you might just feel the same

Quote from: Dish on March 23, 2025, 09:59:21 AMI think this season is difficult to reconcile.

MU goes through a gauntlet in the non-conference, ultimately playing five tournament teams (with seed lines of nine or better) and goes 4-1. That included a three game stretch at Maryland, home Purdue, neutral Georgia. Consensus top 10 team.

They get into Big East play, and end up going 3-7 versus tournament teams. No major injuries to speak of, and the eye test going into March just wasn't great.

With 3 outstanding senior guards, all graduating, it probably was this past offseason to get a big in the portal. Shaka stuck to his guns, and for some it's frustrating to not see more development out of his recruits.

Is it realistic for MU to be a 2 seed every year? No, absolutely not, that'd be a ridiculous expectation. Will there be a down season every now and then? Sure, of course. Is it frustrating when MU is a top 10 team for half a season and whimpers out of the tournament? Yes.

Going forward, how does MU build off these last four years? The administration gives the resources to the program (MU spends the 4th most in the country on men's basketball, and that number no longer reflects Wojo's buyout). I understand some are happy with this season's outcome on the whole (totally get it) and some wondering what happened the second half of this year and where do we go from here.

This is all fair, but I think the "MU spends this much money" is lame. We're one of a very few programs that rents our arena.

Quote from: Miss Katie's on March 23, 2025, 08:50:28 AMWill Arby's ever open at the Fiserv?

Considering how many vendors were closed for Marquette games, even if Arby's opens at Fiserv, Marquette fans won't be able to get Arby's at games.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 23, 2025, 12:01:43 PMConsidering how many vendors were closed for Marquette games, even if Arby's opens at Fiserv, Marquette fans won't be able to get Arby's at games.

A closed Arby's at an MU loss may be the ultimate suffering. Or they only staff it when MU loses.

Quote from: DoctorV on March 23, 2025, 11:09:49 AMYea overall this was just a tough season to see coming.

It was a perfect storm of unexpected overachievement early, followed by a much worse than expected slide late and here we are...

It's easy to look at it and point fingers, to blame the offense under Coach Nevada, the roster construction and lack of portal additions by Coach Shaka, and so on and so forth.

The thing is, at the end of the day- and this is in no way to knock the guardians after their amazing careers- Shaka could have never expected the regression that he got from the 3 seniors towards the last few months of the season.
Kam and Joplins shooting from 3 in particular was a staggering collapse. Jop showed up in the dance but this was a season long struggle compared to years past. Stevie just didn't seem himself for several reasons.
In a similar fashion last season Shaka could've never expected Oso to not play up to his standards in the post season.

When you have a system based nearly solely on upper classman leadership, responsibility, and growth to stardom it's very tough to overcome when those guys aren't at their peak.
It's also great when they are at their peak, which we've seen for several seasons in long stretches.

The next part becomes "well when you started to realize there was a problem did you adjust?"
Shaka tried, he went thru a stretch where he played the underclassmen a bunch, to some decent results, and everyone got hopeful that they could contribute.
Then the end of the season came and he returned to his tried and true method of only playing his core, essentially limiting bench usage to the bare minimum, and that didn't help.
-How about changing the offense a bit? Well imo this could've helped some, and I'm sure he considered it but probably thought it would be too tough mid season. He hoped there would be a shooting regression to the mean.

Then there's the "ok well why does it seem like this is happening repeatedly?" part.
-Is it because you're taking guys that have become very good in their roles, eg Joplin as a sharp shooting 6th man or 3&D type of starter, and pushing them to something bigger? Kam was a fine pg this season, All American, but I'd bet that Shaka really regrets not bringing in another pass first pg. Two of the main reasons for Kam and Jops 3p regression had to be TyKos departure and heavier legs due to more responsibility.
-Is it because of over-usage and over-reliance and responsibility placed on these seniors?
-Is it pure dumb luck?
-Is it a mental thing, where both coach and players press themselves so much that they fold under pressure?

There is a lot to unpack in the offseason for Shaka. None of the above even mentions the continued rebounding and getting bullied by the better teams on the schedule issue, or the perceived lack of outside shooting threat issue.
Chase, Ben, Zaide shot decent percentages and Parham/Owens seem like they will be able to shoot ok so we will see. As for the rebounding, bigger length looms (the skinny variety) and if that length can stay on the court it should help a bit on the glass.

Then there is the uncertainty at pg issue...
After typing this I think I need a cocktail and after reading it you might just feel the same

The outside shooting issue is not "perceived". It is a proble. Just the facts Mam--Joe Friday

Quote from: willie warrior on March 23, 2025, 12:26:14 PMThe outside shooting issue is not "perceived". It is a proble. Just the facts Mam--Joe Friday

🤔

Quote from: cheebs09 on March 23, 2025, 10:37:50 AMTriangle offense. Triangle and two is a type of defense.

Oh...right.  My bad.

Quote from: tower912 on March 22, 2025, 08:51:38 PMAnd if you want to mope about a 23 win season, that is your right.

Tower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:24:57 PMMU fans have been inordinately patient.  2027 is our 50 year anniversary and we haven't been to a F4 in 22 years.  It's time to get some freaking ballers with the attributes I've listed above. It's a moral imperative and absolutely doable. 

'atta boy!

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

I fundamentally disagree.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

98 wins in 4 years is what 95% of college basketball programs dream of.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

Do you realize more regular season wins will eventually help lead to more tourney wins?

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 07:23:02 PMDo you realize more regular season wins will eventually help lead to more tourney wins?

He doesn't realize sh1t.  He would have fired Jay Wright before he ever won anything...

Mugsy wants better players asap (hot take).

BC Hoopster thinks Shaka red shirted an impact big (for what reason?)...and called for a walk-on to impact a game for us this year (Shaka messed that up as well).

This board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

Nm

Quote from: avid1010 on March 23, 2025, 07:31:05 PMHe doesn't realize sh1t.  He would have fired Jay Wright before he ever won anything...

Mugsy wants better players asap (hot take).

BC Hoopster thinks Shaka red shirted an impact big (for what reason?)...and called for a walk-on to impact a game for us this year (Shaka messed that up as well).

This board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

Pretty much says it all. We got a great one in Shaka who is unique and puts us in a position to compete with the big schools. Stay unique and build that brand. And he's just getting started.

Makes MU look good and graduates players - something lost in the nil area - where kids will play 4 years and not come close to getting a degree. It's still college to me.

So count me as happy.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

What in our entire basketball history outside of Al gives us the right to expect the last four years to be the floor? I've made it easy for you and put a summary of MUBB history in my signature

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 24, 2025, 12:07:03 PMWhat in our entire basketball history outside of Al gives us the right to expect the last four years to be the floor? I've made it easy for you and put a summary of MUBB history in my signature

Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2025, 01:17:44 PMMarquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

By this logic every program out there with zero precedent should have these unreasonable expectations.

Prior to 1955 should we have expected to be in the tournament every year? No, we hadn't made it before so when that happened the reach goal was make it every year but the benchmark would've been unreasonable.

Right now, there's no precedent for saying the last four years should be our floor we hadn't won the big east tournament before, we hadn't been a 2 seed before, and we've had 5 second weekend appearances since 2000. Spend another four or so consistently making the second weekend and you can say the benchmark has changed, spend another few years being a 2 seed or higher and you can say that's the new floor. Yes few wright Thompson Al etc can and should be the goal and I hope we get there but the past four years most certainly can't be reasonably called our floor unless we're saying that we've always been below our floor (including 02-13)

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 24, 2025, 01:33:37 PMBy this logic every program out there with zero precedent should have these unreasonable expectations.

By this logic, Marquette is just like any program with zero precedent.

Regardless, I wasn't talking a floor (setting expectations for a floor is pretty COLE), I was talking about expectations for a ceiling.
Again, we're not slaves to our history. The fact Marquette hasn't been a Gonzaga-like program the past 20 years doesn't mean the program shouldn't aspire to it, or that such aspirations are unrealistic. Aspiring to be what you've been is not so aspirational.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2025, 02:04:25 PMBy this logic, Marquette is just like any program with zero precedent.

No really, let's take Kansas, they've been to every tournament in the 2000s, all but three they've won a game. That's a reasonable floor expectation. These programs set a precedent by achieving something year in and year out. During those 24 tournaments they've been lower than a 4 seed twice. It's a reasonable set expectation for their floor to be a 4 seed that wins a game.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2025, 02:04:25 PMRegardless, I wasn't talking a floor (setting expectations for a floor is pretty COLE),

 you quoted a response i had to a poster talking about the floor seen below. You'll forgive my confusion there. Additionally talking about a floor is absolutely not COLE. In any analysis you compare against a benchmark, determined by prior success. I work in marketing analytics, if my regional fast food chain said they wanted a 40% conversion rate or better on a campaign when we've only ever seen 20% that'd be absurd, there's no precedent for that expectation. Similar to MU fans thinking an 9, 2 (double champs) 2 (S16), 7 should be the floor. We don't have enough stretches like that to consider that the floor. It's an unreasonable minimum expectation.

Quote from: Viper on March 23, 2025, 07:08:35 PMTower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2025, 02:04:25 PMI was talking about expectations for a ceiling.
Again, we're not slaves to our history. The fact Marquette hasn't been a Gonzaga-like program the past 20 years doesn't mean the program shouldn't aspire to it, or that such aspirations are unrealistic. Aspiring to be what you've been is not so aspirational.

This is where we agree when I comes to ceiling. A reach goal is absolutely reasonable especially with a comparable school's success. It sounds like we MU's communicated because I was responding to vipers call out about minimum expectations and you replied with reach goals.

I think you can be happy and disappointed in the same breathe. I don't think anyone here is unhappy with the turnaround from where we were 5 years ago with Wojo. Like I had mentioned in a different thread.

 I am disappointed that we had 4 NBA players on the roster at the same time and lost to Michigan state when we had a clear path to the championship game. I am disappointed we had 3 NBA players on the roster and could only make the sweet 16 when we had a clear path to the final 4.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 07:23:02 PMDo you realize more regular season wins will eventually help lead to more tourney wins?

are you thinking more regular season wins leads to a higher tourney seeding thus a potential easier path, hence more tourney wins? Maybe so.
My point is, we need to start winning ncaa games. Shaka has won 3. A solid floor. Making the S16 last year was great. More of that. I guess I bring an optimism from a career in sales. Think big. Figure out how to get past the roadblocks. Game plan to win not 'hope' to win. Gonzaga, as Pakuni referred , comes to my mind often in these discussions...a program in small market Spokane wins a lot more than Marquette does in the postseason. Yeah, the BE is far superior to the WCC, but if it's all relative, we should be able to recruit to get tourney wins as they have. Obviously Few is better than Wojo, so they've had a solid foundation. But at this point, I just feel like these past 4 seasons should be the floor, the step to bigger. Admittedly, maybe I'm missing something or overly optimistic.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2025, 01:17:44 PMMarquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

yes, what you are saying, Pak. I agree

Quote from: HowardsWorld on March 24, 2025, 04:47:24 PMI think you can be happy and disappointed in the same breathe. I don't think anyone here is unhappy with the turnaround from where we were 5 years ago with Wojo. Like I had mentioned in a different thread.

 I am disappointed that we had 4 NBA players on the roster at the same time and lost to Michigan state when we had a clear path to the championship game. I am disappointed we had 3 NBA players on the roster and could only make the sweet 16 when we had a clear path to the final 4.

yes

Quote from: avid1010 on March 23, 2025, 07:31:05 PMHe doesn't realize sh1t.  He would have fired Jay Wright before he ever won anything...

Mugsy wants better players asap (hot take).

BC Hoopster thinks Shaka red shirted an impact big (for what reason?)...and called for a walk-on to impact a game for us this year (Shaka messed that up as well).

This board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

In my defense Avid, I always want better players and for them to dominate ruthlessly with zero mercy.  I feel like we've missed a tremendous opportunity the last three years in the dance.  Especially 2023 and 2024.  I also believe strongly that we should be able to get a lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4.  Patience isn't my strong point but I think it's fine to have a sense of urgency. 

Your problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 24, 2025, 07:47:51 PMYour problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

That's not true at all. I have high expectations and believe we can be elite. 

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 24, 2025, 07:47:51 PMYour problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

not realistic? Why? Marquette can't get the kind of talent to win ncaat games(plural)? If that is what you are implying, aren't you short selling MU?  What doesn't Marquette have (unless it's NIL) to get the kind of talent needed to make deep tournament runs? Those last 4 or 5 yrs Jay Wright had at 'nova. Not realistic for MU? What am I missing?

Quote from: avid1010 on March 23, 2025, 07:31:05 PMThis board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

All true.

In one of the many transfer portal discussions, a Scooper mentioned Greg Gard as an example of a coach who achieved success using the portal. Well, Gard has won 3 NCAAT games in his last 8 years, including 1 total these last two seasons when he went to the portal for a star player to save him. The same Scooper, in thread after thread, has been criticizing Shaka's poor NCAAT results as Marquette's coach. That's a real interesting combination of takes.

As we all know, Shaka has won 3 NCAAT games in 4 years as MU coach. Every Scooper wishes there had been a heck of a lot more wins, and we're disappointed there weren't.

Nevertheless, over that span, Shaka has as many NCAAT wins as (or more than) ...

Greg Gard
Rick & Richard Pitino - combined
John Calipari (even with his 2 wins this year)
Kevin Willard (even with his 2 wins this year)
Buzz Williams
Porter Moser
Dana Altman
Sean Miller
Tony Bennett and Ron Sanchez and Ryan Odom - combined
Dennis Gates
Randy Bennett

Most of those guys have used the portal quite a bit, a few have used it a ton. Rick Pitino has been lauded here as an example of what today's coaches need to do to win ... but many of those same Scoopers have said that an early NCAAT exit means a season is a "failure." So which is it for Pitino, who was embarrassed by 10-seed last week and has won a grand total of 1 NCAAT game in 5 years?

I have criticized Shaka when I've felt it's been warranted, including his time-out strategy and our too-often inability to inbound the basketball. Each of the last two seasons, I wished he used the transfer portal to get a rotation big who could get some rebounds, block shots and commit hard fouls. In other words, I hardly think Shaka is infallible or beyond criticism - no coach is.

I also think it does no good to defend him by saying he's done better than Wojo. I would sure as hell hope so!

But to rip him constantly, to act as if he's done anything but help our program significantly, to act as if he and his assistants haven't been instrumental in the development of some really good players, to say he has "failed," to even suggest he should be fired as a few (thankfully very few) have ... it's all so ridiculous.

Shaka hasn't been perfect - in other words, he's no Greg Gard. But he's been a heck of a coach and program-builder, and he has earned my admiration, respect and trust.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 24, 2025, 07:51:49 PMThat's not true at all. Oh yes it is!  I have high expectations fantasies and believe we can be elite if I am in charge. 

FIFY.

So your unhinged rant in post #3 in this thread followed up by "It's a moral imperative"  ::)  and, when asked how many ballers you wanted for next year, you replied 4- all this is rational?

Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team. And Shaka, of course.  ::)

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 24, 2025, 10:31:07 PMFIFY.

So your unhinged rant in post #3 in this thread followed up by "It's a moral imperative"  ::)  and, when asked how many ballers you wanted for next year, you replied 4- all this is rational?

Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team. And Shaka, of course.  ::)

You struggle greatly with reading between the lines and why I emphasize certain things.  Our expectations should be sky high for the MU hoops program moving forward.  If you believe otherwise you're the one who isn't rational. 

Quote from: MU82 on March 24, 2025, 10:18:26 PMAll true.

Similar to FF, AI condensed that to:  A critic praised Gard's portal success while condemning Shaka's, despite Shaka's superior recent NCAA tournament record compared to many portal-using coaches.

Quote from: Viper on March 24, 2025, 10:00:01 PMnot realistic? Why? Marquette can't get the kind of talent to win ncaat games(plural)? If that is what you are implying, aren't you short selling MU?  What doesn't Marquette have (unless it's NIL) to get the kind of talent needed to make deep tournament runs? Those last 4 or 5 yrs Jay Wright had at 'nova. Not realistic for MU? What am I missing?

Bruh. Have you read Muggsy's posts around here? And I don't just mean in the last week regarding our team. I'm talking generally his entire post history.

Living in reality is not his strong suit.

Optimistic and passionate though? Sure.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 24, 2025, 07:33:27 PMIn my defense Avid, I always want better players and for them to dominate ruthlessly with zero mercy.  I feel like we've missed a tremendous opportunity the last three years in the dance.  Especially 2023 and 2024.  I also believe strongly that we should be able to get a lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4.  Patience isn't my strong point but I think it's fine to have a sense of urgency. 

We have been patient and Shaka did well up to this year. We need more of those players mentioned, but we don't have them, and that is on Shaka. Which contributed directly to this year's flameout. And sadly, next year looks even less than this year. One has to question about the direction since those past years.

What some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 07:05:40 AMWhat some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

That's correct Hands and a good point.  There are no guarantees.  However, if you add these types of players to the roster, your margin for error changes. Your chances for a deep run increases exponentially.  The first goal is a top 4 protected seed.  Next is a deep run and ultimately subjugation of those in our path to a natty.  If you ask Shaka this is the goal of MU hoops. 

Yes, victory is one of Shaka's pillars.  And, in his estimation, it flows from relationships and growth.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 25, 2025, 08:09:31 AMHowever, if you add these types of players to the roster, your margin for error changes.

Sure, but there are only so many of these guys on the planet and getting them is easier said than done.  There is only so much money, and so much playing time, not to mention the desire of every player to be the GUY.  Competition for great players is always high.

QuoteThe first goal is a top 4 protected seed.  Next is a deep run and ultimately subjugation of those in our path to a natty.  If you ask Shaka this is the goal of MU hoops. 

Yep, totally agree.  But after that there is no guarantee of success.  The best team doesn't always win the tournament.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 08:16:38 AMSure, but there are only so many of these guys on the planet and getting them is easier said than done.  There is only so much money, and so much playing time, not to mention the desire of every player to be the GUY.  Competition for great players is always high.


Yep, totally agree.  But after that there is no guarantee of success.  The best team doesn't always win the tournament.

Agreed.  I also think while this tournament has been chalky, that doesn't mean Cinderella is dead moving forward. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 07:05:40 AMWhat some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

Yep.

A Hall of Fame coach whom lots of folks were falling all over themselves to praise for his awesome use of the transfer portal just got humiliated by a 10-seed coached by a rival he hates. He even benched his #1 portal stud for the final 5 minutes for playing like sh!t and pouting.

That doesn't mean transfers are bad or the guy suddenly forgot how to coach or any other "trend." It just means sh!t happens even to great coaches, highly regarded teams and star players.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 07:05:40 AMWhat some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

You're not entirely wrong. These things can and do occur with any team or coach. The questions arise when these things keep happening to the same team or coach.
Getting upset by a double digit seed happens to every coach once in a while. Getting upset by a double digit seed three times in five years is a little harder to write off as bad luck.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 11:39:49 AMYou're not entirely wrong. These things can and do occur with any team or coach. The questions arise when these things keep happening to the same team or coach.
Getting upset by a double digit seed happens to every coach once in a while. Getting upset by a double digit seed three times in five years is a little harder to write off as bad luck.

Yes, of course.  I'm not above questioning the results.  I don't disagree that some help for this team would have been great.  Was there decent help available that didn't compromise team chemistry or culture though?  Shaka is the only one to know that.

Buuuut, hypothetically, let's say Shaka beats New Mexico on Friday, and then loses to MSU on Sunday.  I'm quite sure a lot of the same people here crowing about losing would still be crowing.  Would the season have felt successful with that extra victory over UNM?  Doubtful.

So what is the bar to have considered it a success?  Little willie (and more than a few others) expect Marquette to win it all ever year.  That feels unreasonable.  What would your bar be?

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 11:52:48 AMBuuuut, hypothetically, let's say Shaka beats New Mexico on Friday, and then loses to MSU on Sunday.  I'm quite sure a lot of the same people here crowing about losing would still be crowing.  Would the season have felt successful with that extra victory over UNM?  Doubtful.

Losing to a 2 seed conference champ led by a legendary coach is far more palatable than losing to a 10 from a mid-major conference. One tourney win does make the season feel more successful.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 11:52:48 AMBuuuut, hypothetically, let's say Shaka beats New Mexico on Friday, and then loses to MSU on Sunday.  I'm quite sure a lot of the same people here crowing about losing would still be crowing. 

I think that's the heart of the matter. 

My opinion, if over a four year stretch our worst is bubble team/squeak into the tourney and best is S16 with shot to go further sign me up.

I totally soured on Wojo well before the Ja debacle - but the heart of it was that team was the best we would be under his leadership...and we werent that great.

I'm not convinced yet that we've seen the best of Shaka and I hope its here.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 25, 2025, 11:56:26 AMLosing to a 2 seed conference champ led by a legendary coach is far more palatable than losing to a 10 from a mid-major conference. One tourney win does make the season feel more successful.

Given how people feel about 2023 I'm not sure that specific legendary coach has anything to do with it so much as the seed does.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 25, 2025, 11:56:26 AMLosing to a 2 seed conference champ led by a legendary coach is far more palatable than losing to a 10 from a mid-major conference. One tourney win does make the season feel more successful.

1SE would have really loved that. He made it clear that the tourney is all that matters to him and had a 0-1 season.

One tourney win would have made the season a bit more successful to me, but it would have taken a W over MSU to move the needle much. But that's just my opinion.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 11:52:48 AMShaka is the only one to know that.

Shaka didn't'know'.  He (and by definition, his coaches) made a best guess.  He guessed he would have Sean back by conference season.  He guessed that Hamilton's development would continue and translate to games. He guessed that Amadou would not need a redshirt (Declared on Nov.5). He guessed that DO would be healthy.  So, projecting all of that, he signed Clark with the intention to redshirt and develop him.  Those guesses did not pan out as he hoped.

Still won 23 games.  Imagine if he had hit on 75% or even 50%.

Quote from: MU82 on March 25, 2025, 11:25:45 AMIt just means sh!t happens even to great coaches, highly regarded teams and star players.

Sh!t does seem to happen to Shaka every year in the tournament, though.

I think Shaka has been a Godsend to Marquette, but you have to admit his NCAA performance has not been great after his initial big run at VCU.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 25, 2025, 12:03:03 PMGiven how people feel about 2023 I'm not sure that specific legendary coach has anything to do with it so much as the seed does.

That is why I included all three (seed, conference champs, Izzo), not just "legendary coach." I am still pissed over 2023 since we were the two and favored, but losing to MSU this year would have been different since we would have been the underdog.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 12:07:04 PMShaka didn't'know'.  He (and by definition, his coaches) made a best guess.  He guessed he would have Sean back by conference season.  He guessed that Hamilton's development would continue and translate to games. He guessed that Amadou would not need a redshirt (Declared on Nov.5). He guessed that DO would be healthy.  So, projecting all of that, he signed Clark with the intention to redshirt and develop him.  Those guesses did not pan out as he hoped.

Still won 23 games.  Imagine if he had hit on 75% or even 50%.

Fair points. I guess.

Quote from: Viper on March 24, 2025, 07:11:59 PMare you thinking more regular season wins leads to a higher tourney seeding thus a potential easier path, hence more tourney wins? Maybe so.
My point is, we need to start winning ncaa games. Shaka has won 3. A solid floor. Making the S16 last year was great. More of that. I guess I bring an optimism from a career in sales. Think big. Figure out how to get past the roadblocks. Game plan to win not 'hope' to win. Gonzaga, as Pakuni referred , comes to my mind often in these discussions...a program in small market Spokane wins a lot more than Marquette does in the postseason. Yeah, the BE is far superior to the WCC, but if it's all relative, we should be able to recruit to get tourney wins as they have. Obviously Few is better than Wojo, so they've had a solid foundation. But at this point, I just feel like these past 4 seasons should be the floor, the step to bigger. Admittedly, maybe I'm missing something or overly optimistic.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.  If we're winning enough games to get a protected seed say 2 out of every 4 seasons, I'm confident a tourney breakthrough would be forthcoming. 

I'm sure Shaka is well-aware of the questions regarding tourney performance and he's probably harder on himself than any of the turds here are.  Self-reflection seems to be a big part of who he is.

Now if we're having the same conversation about lack of tourney results 4 years from now I think those concerns will be more than fair.  I'm just not there yet and I have a hard time holding Tyler's injury and a 4-31 shooting performance against the staff. 

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 25, 2025, 11:52:48 AMYes, of course.  I'm not above questioning the results.  I don't disagree that some help for this team would have been great.  Was there decent help available that didn't compromise team chemistry or culture though?  Shaka is the only one to know that.

Buuuut, hypothetically, let's say Shaka beats New Mexico on Friday, and then loses to MSU on Sunday.  I'm quite sure a lot of the same people here crowing about losing would still be crowing.  Would the season have felt successful with that extra victory over UNM?  Doubtful.

So what is the bar to have considered it a success?  Little willie (and more than a few others) expect Marquette to win it all ever year.  That feels unreasonable.  What would your bar be?

Are you asking about this season or four years?
The overall body of Shaka's work at MU has been terrific. I don't think his seat is anything but ice cold, nor should it be.

Completely agree that what happened in the Sweet 16 last year can't be pinned on Shaka. He built a roster that was capable of going to the Final Four, coached them into a position to succeed and had them playing pretty well at the end of the year (even in games TK and Oso missed, which showed his ability to adjust as needed). They just ran into a rough shooting night at the worst possible time.
(Same shouldn't be said for Shaka's other tourney losses since 2021 ... his teams just played poorly).

But he didn't do a particularly good job this season. Not because of the results of one game. It's more the process that led to that result, which, if we're being honest, had been inevitable since early February.
IMO, his roster decisions didn't maximize the returning talent he had and his inability/unwillingness to find answers as things went t-ts up beginning in February didn't put this group in a position to succeed. If his plan was to see major growth from the likes of Ben and Tre ... well, he didn't get that out of them.
Could it be that this roster just wasn't that capable of March success? Maybe. But the early season results indicate otherwise. Even if those were just a mirage, then we're back to the issue of roster construction.

Are you asking my definition of tourney success? I think you at least have to play to your seed most years and occasionally knock off a higher seed.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 25, 2025, 12:23:18 PMThat is why I included all three (seed, conference champs, Izzo), not just "legendary coach." I am still pissed over 2023 since we were the two and favored, but losing to MSU this year would have been different since we would have been the underdog.

Kolek injuring his changed that games outcome.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 25, 2025, 12:46:39 PMKolek injuring his changed that games outcome.

Kolek was soft.  Al would have had him out there

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 12:35:46 PMAre you asking about this season or four years?
The overall body of Shaka's work at MU has been terrific. I don't think his seat is anything but ice cold, nor should it be.

Completely agree that what happened in the Sweet 16 last year can't be pinned on Shaka. He built a roster that was capable of going to the Final Four, coached them into a position to succeed and had them playing pretty well at the end of the year (even in games TK and Oso missed, which showed his ability to adjust as needed). They just ran into a rough shooting night at the worst possible time.
(Same shouldn't be said for Shaka's other tourney losses since 2021 ... his teams just played poorly).

But he didn't do a particularly good job this season. Not because of the results of one game. It's more the process that led to that result, which, if we're being honest, had been inevitable since early February.
IMO, his roster decisions didn't maximize the returning talent he had and his inability/unwillingness to find answers as things went t-ts up beginning in February didn't put this group in a position to succeed. If his plan was to see major growth from the likes of Ben and Tre ... well, he didn't get that out of them.
Could it be that this roster just wasn't that capable of March success? Maybe. But the early season results indicate otherwise. Even if those were just a mirage, then we're back to the issue of roster construction.

Are you asking my definition of tourney success? I think you at least have to play to your seed most years and occasionally knock off a higher seed.

Yeah, that's what I was looking for.  And I mostly agree.  As I mentioned elsewhere on this board, I think the team outperformed expectations early on, and then the fans expected those results to continue.  That would have been awesome, but they didn't and I think that is the reason for a lot of the disappointment around here.  Without a doubt, the second half of the season wasn't nearly as fun.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 25, 2025, 12:34:57 PMYes, that's exactly what I mean.  If we're winning enough games to get a protected seed say 2 out of every 4 seasons, I'm confident a tourney breakthrough would be forthcoming. 

I'm sure Shaka is well-aware of the questions regarding tourney performance and he's probably harder on himself than any of the turds here are.  Self-reflection seems to be a big part of who he is.

Now if we're having the same conversation about lack of tourney results 4 years from now I think those concerns will be more than fair.  I'm just not there yet and I have a hard time holding Tyler's injury and a 4-31 shooting performance against the staff. 

agreed. Players play...coaches don't shoot it. Rebound it.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 24, 2025, 11:16:18 PMSimilar to FF, AI condensed that to:  A critic praised Gard's portal success while condemning Shaka's, despite Shaka's superior recent NCAA tournament record compared to many portal-using coaches.

How many coaches did not go to the portal this season?

Quote from: Viper on March 25, 2025, 01:29:30 PMagreed. Players play...coaches don't shoot it. Rebound it.

#coachingnomatta?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 11:39:49 AMYou're not entirely wrong. These things can and do occur with any team or coach. The questions arise when these things keep happening to the same team or coach.
Getting upset by a double digit seed happens to every coach once in a while. Getting upset by a double digit seed three times in five years is a little harder to write off as bad luck.

CoS believes if something bad happens once in a lifetime to a HoF coach, it justifies it happening 3 times in 5 years to their coach.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 25, 2025, 02:51:57 PMCoS believes if something bad happens once in a lifetime to a HoF coach, it justifies it happening 3 times in 5 years to their coach.

Why do Shaka's results at Texas matter? Like, we knew about them when we hired him. Are we just that desperate to cherry pick stats?

It is a message board.   I cherry pick 98 wins in 4 seasons.  PW cherry picks losing to a worse seed 3 out of five seasons, including one at Shaka's former employer.   Same thing.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 03:09:27 PMIt is a message board.  I cherry pick 98 wins in 4 seasons.  PW cherry picks losing to a worse seed 3 out of five seasons, including one at Shaka's former employer.  Same thing.

It isn't though.  You looking at Shaka's entire career at MU is different than looking at his entire career at MU + one year at Texas.

There are several different ways to divide and observe his career.  The last 5 years is not one that makes sense.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:11:54 PMIt isn't though.  You looking at Shaka's entire career at MU is different than looking at his entire career at MU + one year at Texas.

There are several different ways to divide and observe his career.  The last 5 years is not one that makes sense.

5 years to judge

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:11:54 PMIt isn't though.  You looking at Shaka's entire career at MU is different than looking at his entire career at MU + one year at Texas.

There are several different ways to divide and observe his career.  The last 5 years is not one that makes sense.

Five years doesn't make sense when evaluating a trend? Huh.
Is the trend better just focusing on his MU tourney results?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 03:23:10 PMFive years doesn't make sense when evaluating a trend? Huh.
Is the trend better just focusing on his MU tourney results?

A trend of making the tourney every year?

A trend of winning a game half the time?

A trend of S16 1/4 of the time?

I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.

Richard Pitino's name is being thrown around for the Nova job, should they disqualify him because 5 years ago he was 14-15 at Minnesota?

Question for Tower, if we have a 21 win season next year, are you going to be saying 100 wins over 4 seasons or are you going to be saying 119 wins over 5 season?

No right/wrong answer, just curious.

Pakuni, Point Warrior, do you want Shaka fired?  Do you think he is not the long term answer?  If so, say it, spell it out in small words for us dumb scoopers, and own it.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:28:43 PMQuestion for Tower, if we have a 21 win season next year, are you going to be saying 100 wins over 4 seasons or are you going to be saying 119 wins over 5 season?

No right/wrong answer, just curious.

Both would be accurate.  And both would be acceptable to me.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:26:12 PMA trend of making the tourney every year?

A trend of winning a game half the time?

A trend of S16 1/4 of the time?

I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.

Yeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

QuoteRichard Pitino's name is being thrown around for the Nova job, should they disqualify him because 5 years ago he was 14-15 at Minnesota?

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 03:46:34 PMYeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

I would take Pition Jr. Over the other candidates still out there.  The really good ones are already gone.  So, if it were a choice between Richard and, say, Wardle, I would take Jr.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 03:46:34 PMYeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

It would make more sense to me to either just look at MU, just look at Texas, or look at both of them together in their entirety. It just seems very overly cherry picked which is not normally your MO.

If you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:55:07 PMI honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

It would make more sense to me to either just look at MU, just look at Texas, or look at both of them together in their entirety. It just seems very overly cherry picked which is not normally your MO.

If you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

Especially because his entire philosophy at Texas was different than it is at MU.

I'm a bit concerned about the lack of march success, but not terribly so. 2023 was overperformance to a ridiculous extent. It hurts because they were in the game, but rewatch that and MSU hit some tough ass shots. Made big plays. MU battled back from 15 down. Just couldn't close it.

2024 was a weird game that we probably win 8/10 times.

This year's team just wasn't good enough. As long as the norm is 2023/24 (in team construction, not seeding) then I'm not worried. If the norm is this year, then our ceiling is probably capped and I will start to get concerned. Time will tell.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 25, 2025, 03:55:07 PMI honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

Because Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

QuoteIf you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

Someone earlier (MU82 maybe?) pointed out that Greg "Just-Gets-It-Done" Gard has won exactly 3 NCAA tournament games--total--in the LAST EIGHT YEARS, and hasn't gone to the Sweet 16 since eight years ago, yet nobody is calling for his head.  He's being talked about as a coach of the year candidate.  Look at everyone's Hall of Famer Rick Pitino's recent NCAAT results too.

Not saying that anyone is calling for Shaka's head, just trying to add perspective to the discussion.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 04:15:24 PMBecause Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

Sure. But his results at TX were 6 years, 0 tournament wins. The results at MU (3 wins in 4 years) are significantly better. And he did change his philosophy completely, so I think it's worth noting that his results have been a lot better here both in the regular season and the tournament.

Does he need to get better in the tournament? Absolutely. But you could easily make a case he's trending upwards doing things his way at MU.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 04:15:24 PMBecause Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

As was pointed out above, his philosophy changed dramatically once he got here. I wouldn't judge him based on his Texas days or his VCU days, he has a large enough sample size at MU to judge him on that and not cherry pick other data.

He's 3-4 with a 100% appearance rate and 1 S16 in 4 years. I certainly don't think that's "lifetime extension" worthy like has been brought up previously, but I'm not overly concerned. I'd even give him a pass if we don't make it next year (although I expect us to). You maintain an appearance rate over 80% and throw in at least one second weekend per recruiting cycle with a shot to go even further, and I'm not sure we can realistically ask for much more.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 04:15:24 PMBecause Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin

No but his entire recruiting strategy shifted back to closer to VCU. It'd be a better point to use VCU and MU together as they're more similar strategies. Unless you know about a bunch of 5 star sure top prospects that have been coming through MU's door that I dont

I'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

Quote from: MUDPT on March 25, 2025, 04:26:35 PMI'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

I do think the luck factor matters. Some years team just get unlucky. It didn't feel like that this year with MU. We struggled to close games all year. Even the ones that we won. That'll bring the luck factor down.

Actually, as many others have said, Shaka did change his recruiting philosophy when he came to MU.  He has also evolved away from the VCU havoc-style defense. He only had Nevada for his final season at Texas and his role was different, so I am not sure how much of his offense was implemented.  Finally, Shaka went all in on culture upon his arrival.


Other than that, though, Pakuni, I agree with you. Same guy.

Quote from: MUDPT on March 25, 2025, 04:26:35 PMI'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

Duke -.020 (236th)
Marquette -.021 (242nd)
Illinois - .022 (248th)
UConn - .027 (255th)
Maryland -.027 (257th)
Texas Tech -.036 (261st)
Arizona -.039 (280th)
Wisconsin -.047 (294th)
Iowa State -.508 (308th)
Gonzaga  -.082 (346th)

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 25, 2025, 04:25:51 PMNo but his entire recruiting strategy shifted back to closer to VCU. It'd be a better point to use VCU and MU together as they're more similar strategies. Unless you know about a bunch of 5 star sure top prospects that have been coming through MU's door that I dont

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Shaka not recruiting good enough players to win in March?

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 03:33:13 PMPakuni, Point Warrior, do you want Shaka fired?  Do you think he is not rhe long term answer?  If so, say it, spell it out in small words for us dumb scoopers, and own it.

Are you kidding right now?

No.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 04:47:27 PMNo.

I left some clues in this thread.
Like when I wrote:

"It's OK to acknowledge that Shaka didn't do his best work this year. He admitted as much himself. Doesn't mean you want him fired (I don't)."

or

"Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown."

or

"The overall body of Shaka's work at MU has been terrific. I don't think his seat is anything but ice cold, nor should it be."

or

"I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall."

Thought all those were pretty clear.

Cool. 

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 05:12:11 PMCool. 

Yeah, Pakuni has clearly said he supports Shaka even though he isn't satisfied with the March results and with some of the roster construction.

Point Warrior has found his schtick - call anybody who isn't going berserk about Shaka's abject failure part of the "CoS."

It doesn't matter if you have occasionally criticized Shaka when warranted or if you have repeatedly said you were disappointed in the way this year finished. As the leader of the Hate on Shaka Cult, he considers you part of the CoS.

He hasn't really said what he expects or whether he'll quit being a Marquette fan if his expectations aren't met. That's not part of his HoSC schtick.

Quote from: MU82 on March 25, 2025, 05:33:25 PMYeah, Pakuni has clearly said he supports Shaka even though he isn't satisfied with the March results and with some of the roster construction.

Point Warrior has found his schtick - call anybody who isn't going berserk about Shaka's abject failure part of the "CoS."

It doesn't matter if you have occasionally criticized Shaka when warranted or if you have repeatedly said you were disappointed in the way this year finished. As the leader of the Hate on Shaka Cult, he considers you part of the CoS.

He hasn't really said what he expects or whether he'll quit being a Marquette fan if his expectations aren't met. That's not part of his HoSC schtick.

Hey, at least he did not start the "Grace Period is over" thread (GB Warrior).  ::)

Kudos to 1SE for coining C of S. He had a rough one game season (has made it clear it is ALL about the tourney) finishing 0-1.

Shaka-resistant?

I get that I'm not the poster child for relaxing, but everyone needs to calm the H down. 

Quote from: MUDPT on March 25, 2025, 04:26:35 PMI'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

Pretty sure that was due to the last 30 seconds of the DePaul game where that guy hit like 5 threes.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2025, 11:39:49 AMYou're not entirely wrong. These things can and do occur with any team or coach. The questions arise when these things keep happening to the same team or coach.
Getting upset by a double digit seed happens to every coach once in a while. Getting upset by a double digit seed three times in five years is a little harder to write off as bad luck.

I wouldn't call it bad luck, but more a reflection of the inherent variance of a single elimination tournament played by amateur basketball players. That's 3 out of 166 games played in those 5 seasons. To be clear, I'm not saying that the other 163 were well coached (they weren't), just a recognition that bad games happen and three of them happening in the last game of the season in five years isn't the statistical anomaly it may seem to be.

I truly don't believe there's anything special or magical about coaching in the tournament. Weird crap happens in madness. That being said, if Shaka disagrees, I hope he tries to address it. He always talks about seeking out coaches who are good at the things he's bad at in the offseason. Maybe talk to Hurley, Wright, Izzo, or any other coach that seems to have less variance in their March performances to see if there's any wisdom he can gleam.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2025, 03:33:13 PMPakuni, Point Warrior, do you want Shaka fired?  Do you think he is not the long term answer?  If so, say it, spell it out in small words for us dumb scoopers, and own it.

Never said I want Shaka fired. I think there is room to say he is a great coach, great ambassador for the university, and yet has room for improvement as evidence by his NCAA results.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 25, 2025, 04:25:51 PMNo but his entire recruiting strategy shifted back to closer to VCU. It'd be a better point to use VCU and MU together as they're more similar strategies. Unless you know about a bunch of 5 star sure top prospects that have been coming through MU's door that I dont

it's disappointing to be lumped into a same category as VCU - I was led to believe that Marquette has significantly better basketball resources than VCU.

Quote from: MU82 on March 25, 2025, 05:33:25 PMYeah, Pakuni has clearly said he supports Shaka even though he isn't satisfied with the March results and with some of the roster construction.

Point Warrior has found his schtick - call anybody who isn't going berserk about Shaka's abject failure part of the "CoS."

It doesn't matter if you have occasionally criticized Shaka when warranted or if you have repeatedly said you were disappointed in the way this year finished. As the leader of the Hate on Shaka Cult, he considers you part of the CoS.

He hasn't really said what he expects or whether he'll quit being a Marquette fan if his expectations aren't met. That's not part of his HoSC schtick.

Really not fair MU82, I do not hate Shaka but mock those who think he is infallible. But I will still buy beers I owe you.     

I like Shaka as the coach for Marquette. But we failed in the NCAA the past 4 years, and apologizing for it is CoS. This year was maddening to rinse and repeat the offense woes they had since at least Jan 3.

Shaka was hired pre/early-NIL. NIL has changed the landscape (see mostly P4 teams in the S16). Is Shaka's anti-portal position because he does not truly believe in bag drops or cause Marquette can't afford it. 

I struggle on two fronts - the offense blew and Shaka did not adapt and I think Marquette can't compete in NIL for transfers.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 25, 2025, 11:53:35 PMit's disappointing to be lumped into a same category as VCU - I was led to believe that Marquette has significantly better basketball resources than VCU.

This is purposely being obtuse. That's not what I said and you know it, reducing the very real fact that Shaka's strategy at MU looks more similar to VCU than Texas to somehow mean that I'm equating our program to VCU is ridiculous.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 25, 2025, 10:46:11 PMI wouldn't call it bad luck, but more a reflection of the inherent variance of a single elimination tournament played by amateur basketball players. That's 3 out of 166 games played in those 5 seasons. To be clear, I'm not saying that the other 163 were well coached (they weren't), just a recognition that bad games happen and three of them happening in the last game of the season in five years isn't the statistical anomaly it may seem to be.

I truly don't believe there's anything special or magical about coaching in the tournament. Weird crap happens in madness. That being said, if Shaka disagrees, I hope he tries to address it. He always talks about seeking out coaches who are good at the things he's bad at in the offseason. Maybe talk to Hurley, Wright, Izzo, or any other coach that seems to have less variance in their March performances to see if there's any wisdom he can gleam.

I would not call players being paid amateurs, semi-professionals?

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 25, 2025, 10:46:11 PMI wouldn't call it bad luck, but more a reflection of the inherent variance of a single elimination tournament played by amateur basketball players. That's 3 out of 166 games played in those 5 seasons. To be clear, I'm not saying that the other 163 were well coached (they weren't), just a recognition that bad games happen and three of them happening in the last game of the season in five years isn't the statistical anomaly it may seem to be.

I truly don't believe there's anything special or magical about coaching in the tournament. Weird crap happens in madness. That being said, if Shaka disagrees, I hope he tries to address it. He always talks about seeking out coaches who are good at the things he's bad at in the offseason. Maybe talk to Hurley, Wright, Izzo, or any other coach that seems to have less variance in their March performances to see if there's any wisdom he can gleam.

but there isn't much variance in Shaka's March performances. Consistently coming up short. That's the point...too consistent on the wrong side.

Quote from: BM1090 on March 25, 2025, 04:21:39 PMSure. But his results at TX were 6 years, 0 tournament wins. The results at MU (3 wins in 4 years) are significantly better. And he did change his philosophy completely, so I think it's worth noting that his results have been a lot better here both in the regular season and the tournament.

Does he need to get better in the tournament? Absolutely. But you could easily make a case he's trending upwards doing things his way at MU.

except the eye test of this season would suggest otherwise. From January onward, this season was a dog, capped by a quick out in the ncaat. Returning cast, incoming reinforcements...I'm not even cautiously optimistic. Rather, cautious. I feel like Shaka is operating out of spite...NIL? Portal? Adjustments? Adapt?...I'll show you, you...

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 26, 2025, 12:04:06 AMReally not fair MU82,     

 CoS.

 Is Shaka's anti-portal position because he does not truly believe in bag drops or cause Marquette can't afford it. 

I struggle on two fronts -

1) I think MU82 was fair and spot on.

2) CoS has become your kneejerk response. You look silly chanting it so often.

3) Shaka has made it clear that he wants to go with HS recruits and developing them. You added two other possibilities-opposing bag drops and cannot afford.

4) You struggle. Period.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 26, 2025, 12:04:06 AMReally not fair MU82, I do not hate Shaka but mock those who think he is infallible. But I will still buy beers I owe you.   

The CoS thing got old quickly, and it's lazy. And, to quote you, it's "really not fair." Just because some of us don't rip, rip and rip some more in every post about Shaka, it doesn't mean we think he's "infallible." That's just silly.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 25, 2025, 11:50:11 PMI think there is room to say he is a great coach, great ambassador for the university, and yet has room for improvement as evidence by his NCAA results.

As do I and most other Scoopers who value what Shaka has brought as coach. I guess we're all in the same cult after all. Kumbaya.

Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2025, 09:12:52 AMThe CoS thing got old quickly, and it's lazy. And, to quote you, it's "really not fair." Just because some of us don't rip, rip and rip some more in every post about Shaka, it doesn't mean we think he's "infallible." That's just silly.

As do I and most other Scoopers who value what Shaka has brought as coach. I guess we're all in the same cult after all. Kumbaya.

Put me in the COW Camp: Cult of Wardle

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 25, 2025, 10:46:11 PMI wouldn't call it bad luck, but more a reflection of the inherent variance of a single elimination tournament played by amateur basketball players. That's 3 out of 166 games played in those 5 seasons. To be clear, I'm not saying that the other 163 were well coached (they weren't), just a recognition that bad games happen and three of them happening in the last game of the season in five years isn't the statistical anomaly it may seem to be.

I truly don't believe there's anything special or magical about coaching in the tournament. Weird crap happens in madness. That being said, if Shaka disagrees, I hope he tries to address it. He always talks about seeking out coaches who are good at the things he's bad at in the offseason. Maybe talk to Hurley, Wright, Izzo, or any other coach that seems to have less variance in their March performances to see if there's any wisdom he can gleam.

This seems to suggest he's an outlier. I don't know why he's an outlier, but his tournament results are worse than his peers. Maybe it truly is a case of bad luck. I really don't know. At what point does inherent variance become a trend?


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmwD6KlWsAEEYBM?format=png&name=900x900)

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 26, 2025, 09:28:21 AMPut me in the COW Camp: Cult of Wardle

He'd be a perfect fit for MUUUUUUUUUUU

Statistics have a way of evening out over time.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 09:30:53 AMThis seems to suggest he's an outlier. I don't know why he's an outlier, but his tournament results are worse than his peers. Maybe it truly is a case of bad luck. I really don't know. At what point does inherent variance become a trend?


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmwD6KlWsAEEYBM?format=png&name=900x900)

Again,  this is pulling 20 games out of a sample of over 450 games. I just don't think theres anything magic about coaching in March. But I've also never coached so maybe I'm wrong.

I'm also seeing Matt Painter in the "avoid    them" category. He was national runner up last season.  You get enough high seeds,  you eventually break through.

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 26, 2025, 09:33:29 AMHe'd be a perfect fit for MUUUUUUUUUUU

There are some farms here that have a breed of cattle that is French in origin. They go moi, mooooiiiii

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 26, 2025, 09:44:47 AMAgain,  this is pulling 20 games out of a sample of over 450 games. I just don't think theres anything magic about coaching in March. But I've also never coached so maybe I'm wrong.

I'm also seeing Matt Painter in the "avoid    them" category. He was national runner up last season.  You get enough high seeds,  you eventually break through.

You are, of course, free to view it as you wish, but I think coaching in March is quite a bit different than a Wednesday night game in January, and I don't think you can evaluate tournament games the same why you evaluate buy games in mid-December.
You have less time to scout and prepare for your opponent.
You have the added pressure of an elimination scenario.
You have added media/public scrutiny.
Your players are almost certainly feeling more pressure.
You're traveling to and practicing in an unfamiliar location.
You're playing the game in an unfamiliar arena.

Would your philosophy extend to other sports. Is coaching the Super Bowl the same as a mid-October game? Is coaching in the World Cup the same as a friendly or a league game?
I would suggest circumstances matter a lot when coaching, and not all games are equal, but you're free to disagree.

As for Painter, have his teams underachieved in the tournament over the course of his tenure?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 10:00:29 AMYou are, of course, free to view it as you wish, but I think coaching in March is quite a bit different than a Wednesday night game in January.
You have less time to scout and prepare for your opponent.
You have the added pressure of an elimination scenario.
You have added media/public scrutiny.
Your players are almost certainly feeling more pressure.
You're traveling to and practicing in an unfamiliar location.
You're playing the game in an unfamiliar arena.

Would your philosophy extend to other sports. Is coaching the Super Bowl the same as a mid-October game? Is coaching in the World Cup the same as a league game?

Yes.

Other than less time to scout (which is true in the second round not the first round) those sound like things that would impact players a lot more than coaches.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 26, 2025, 10:05:25 AMYes.

Other than less time to scout (which is true in the second round not the first round) those sound like things that would impact players a lot more than coaches.

If only these college basketball programs could hire someone tasked with getting the best out of players while they deal with those circumstances.

And yes, you have way less time to scout and prepare for the first round of the tournament than a regular season game. You're learning your opponent Sunday evening and have, at most, five days to prepare.
Shaka and his staff know right now who they're playing next season and have a minimum 7.5 months and as much as 10 months to prepare for them.
Are you under the impression that they don't start prepping for these games until it's the next one on the calendar? They'll be prepping game plans for UConn and Creighton and St. John's this summer.

And just so we're clear, coaching a regular season NFL game is no different than coaching a Super Bowl, and coaching a friendly is no different than coaching a World Cup Final?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 09:30:53 AMThis seems to suggest he's an outlier. I don't know why he's an outlier, but his tournament results are worse than his peers. Maybe it truly is a case of bad luck. I really don't know. At what point does inherent variance become a trend?


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmwD6KlWsAEEYBM?format=png&name=900x900)

How old is this data, I see a ton of inaccuracies.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 10:12:18 AMIf only these college basketball programs could hire someone tasked with getting the best out of players while they deal with those circumstances.

And yes, you have way less time to scout and prepare for the first round of the tournament than a regular season game. You're learning your opponent Sunday evening and have, at most, five days to prepare.
Shaka and his staff know right now who they're playing next season and have a minimum 7.5 months and as much as 10 months to prepare for them.
Are you under the impression that they don't start prepping for these games until it's the next one on the calendar? They'll be prepping game plans for UConn and Creighton and St. John's this summer.

And just so we're clear, coaching a regular season NFL game is no different than coaching a Super Bowl, and coaching a friendly is no different than coaching a World Cup Final?

The presupposition here is that teams are static and the scouting from the off-season (where your 7 months is coming from) is relevant to any opponent throughout the season.  Injuries, development, game planning all becomes somewhat irrelevant viewed through your lens.

Additionally, saying that the team you're playing could be anyone is a bit silly (I realize it is not explicitly what you said, but roll with it).  Coaches and their staffs would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't have any clue.  Given what we know around here, coaches should be able to pare down who they would probably be playing.  Assuming you think your team is on the 7 or 8 line, there are around 10 teams to prepare for, and even then, there is at minimum three days of specific prep for the first team, and then two teams to prepare for afterwards, with limited time of course.  But the opponents aren't total unknowns.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 10:12:18 AMIf only these college basketball programs could hire someone tasked with getting the best out of players while they deal with those circumstances.

And yes, you have way less time to scout and prepare for the first round of the tournament than a regular season game. You're learning your opponent Sunday evening and have, at most, five days to prepare.
Shaka and his staff know right now who they're playing next season and have a minimum 7.5 months and as much as 10 months to prepare for them.
Are you under the impression that they don't start prepping for these games until it's the next one on the calendar? They'll be prepping game plans for UConn and Creighton and St. John's this summer.

And just so we're clear, coaching a regular season NFL game is no different than coaching a Super Bowl, and coaching a friendly is no different than coaching a World Cup Final?

That's what the yes was for.

You make a good point that while trans do only prep for one team at a time,  they can bring in knowledge from previous experience against conference opponents that gives them a head start.  Maybe thats the difference? I'm skepitcal but maybe.

I'm also skeptical that Shaka is bad at the player management in March but not the regular season but maybe that's the case. If it is,  i hope he seeks out wisdom to help him

I'll be happy if Tre Norman is back

Quote from: Hards Alumni on March 26, 2025, 10:31:04 AMThe presupposition here is that teams are static and the scouting from the off-season (where your 7 months is coming from) is relevant to any opponent throughout the season.  Injuries, development, game planning all becomes somewhat irrelevant viewed through your lens.

Sure, there can be injuries, but I don't think those significantly change game prep. Greg McDermott isn't going to completely change his offensive scheme or defensive philosophy if Steven Ashworth misses a game. He'll just bring in a lesser player and ask him to replicate what Ashworth does. And Marquette would have prepared for that player as well.

QuoteAdditionally, saying that the team you're playing could be anyone is a bit silly (I realize it is not explicitly what you said, but roll with it).  Coaches and their staffs would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't have any clue.  Given what we know around here, coaches should be able to pare down who they would probably be playing.  Assuming you think your team is on the 7 or 8 line, there are around 10 teams to prepare for, and even then, there is at minimum three days of specific prep for the first team, and then two teams to prepare for afterwards, with limited time of course.  But the opponents aren't total unknowns.

I'd actually be pretty surprised if the coaching staff is spending significant time during the conference tournament scouting 10+ teams. And I think it would have to be more than 10. If you think you're a 7 or 8 seed - something you really wouldn't know until your conference tournament is over - that means you need to prepare for every possible 7 seed (so, anyone in the 6-8 range) and every possible 9 seed (everyone in the 7-10 range). So, there are going to be at least 19 teams to consider. How much legit scouting of 19 teams can you do in a day or two?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 11:13:42 AMSure, there can be injuries, but I don't think those significantly change game prep. Greg McDermott isn't going to completely change his offensive scheme or defensive philosophy if Steven Ashworth misses a game. He'll just bring in a lesser player and ask him to replicate what Ashworth does. And Marquette would have prepared for that player as well.

Okay.  But a guy like Kalkbrenner being out would drastically change what Creighton does.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 11:13:42 AMI'd actually be pretty surprised if the coaching staff is spending significant time during the conference tournament scouting 10+ teams. And I think it would have to be more than 10. If you think you're a 7 or 8 seed - something you really wouldn't know until your conference tournament is over - that means you need to prepare for every possible 7 seed (so, anyone in the 6-8 range) and every possible 9 seed (everyone in the 7-10 range). So, there are going to be at least 19 teams to consider. How much legit scouting of 19 teams can you do in a day or two?

3/14 was the last game
3/16 was selection Sunday
3/21 was Marquette vs UNM

Taking your assumption of 19 teams, and 10 coaches (including Shaka) I think it would be reasonable to do a dry run of 20 teams in two days.  Each coach gets a day to break down one team.  And then take the film gathered and knowledge garnered, and formulate a plan on Sunday night.  I don't think it is unreasonable to prep for a team in 3 or 4 days.

I'm suggesting this is what IS happening, only that I think it's feasible.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 11:13:42 AMSo, there are going to be at least 19 teams to consider. How much legit scouting of 19 teams can you do in a day or two?

Using tools like Synergy and CBB Analytics, putting one coach and the video coordinator specifically on that task, if they put in two 10-hour days, I think you can probably get a pretty good base scout. No, you won't have the full scout done, but in an hour you can find out tendencies, preferred plays, preferred defensive sets, and pull tape on those plays.

I'm a rank amateur and I pulled together a New Mexico preview in less than two hours after digging into their Synergy numbers, play type tendencies from hoop-explorer, and shot charts from CBB Analytics. When I do the Dreams and Nightmares article, it takes me about 4-5 hours and I'm looking at everyone on the most likely seed lines. I'm going to guess Shaka's staff is far better and can go far deeper in a shorter timeframe than I can.

It won't be the full picture, but it will be enough that once you know who your opponent is, you can use that base scout to fully flesh out what you're up against much faster.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 26, 2025, 09:40:39 AMStatistics have a way of evening out over time.

probably true. However, many of us would like some ncaat evening out before checking out 🪦 !

Torvik's coaches NCAA ratings

https://barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaat.cgi?type=coach

Quote from: MUDPT on March 26, 2025, 11:42:30 AMTorvik's coaches NCAA ratings

https://barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaat.cgi?type=coach

Is there a way to filter and adjust based on # of appearances/# of years as a HC? Neither of the lists that have been provided seem to do that, which should be considered IMO, otherwise you get the Shaheen Holloway/Porter Moser/Kevin Ollie type outliers.  Thanks.

I don't know if Shaka will get us there or not. I will note that of the guys on Pakuni's (mostly comical) list, Shaka is the second youngest (only Will Wade is younger) and nobody under the age of 50 has a positive "difference" score.

The funniest thing about the list is seeing two-time national champion Bill Self on the "Avoid them" list. If Shaka has the success of Self in the next 18 years at Marquette, sign me up. Also, why does Self's time before KU not count? He went to five straight tournies and three second weekends with Tulsa and Illinois, yet only his 21 years at KU count?

Self also has 11 more wins than Izzo, who is the "God of March." Funny when "God" is looking up at someone who is to be avoided.

As far as Shaka, he's essentially the same as Brian Dutcher but with more trips to the tournament. Both had one good run, Shaka had more success outside that, but Dutcher is "Still a pretty good bet" while Shaka is so bad he gets his own tier. Funny stuff.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 26, 2025, 12:32:17 PMI don't know if Shaka will get us there or not. I will note that of the guys on Pakuni's (mostly comical) list, Shaka is the second youngest (only Will Wade is younger) and nobody under the age of 50 has a positive "difference" score.

The funniest thing about the list is seeing two-time national champion Bill Self on the "Avoid them" list. If Shaka has the success of Self in the next 18 years at Marquette, sign me up. Also, why does Self's time before KU not count? He went to five straight tournies and three second weekends with Tulsa and Illinois, yet only his 21 years at KU count?

Self also has 11 more wins than Izzo, who is the "God of March." Funny when "God" is looking up at someone who is to be avoided.

As far as Shaka, he's essentially the same as Brian Dutcher but with more trips to the tournament. Both had one good run, Shaka had more success outside that, but Dutcher is "Still a pretty good bet" while Shaka is so bad he gets his own tier. Funny stuff.

You're asking the list to measure something it wasn't created to measure.
It's pretty simply a measure of how a coach performs relative to his seed in the tournament.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 10:12:18 AMIf only these college basketball programs could hire someone tasked with getting the best out of players while they deal with those circumstances.

And yes, you have way less time to scout and prepare for the first round of the tournament than a regular season game. You're learning your opponent Sunday evening and have, at most, five days to prepare.
Shaka and his staff know right now who they're playing next season and have a minimum 7.5 months and as much as 10 months to prepare for them.
Are you under the impression that they don't start prepping for these games until it's the next one on the calendar? They'll be prepping game plans for UConn and Creighton and St. John's this summer.

And just so we're clear, coaching a regular season NFL game is no different than coaching a Super Bowl, and coaching a friendly is no different than coaching a World Cup Final?

I highly doubt any significant prep in terms of game-planning for our 2025 opponents is taking place over the summer. 

How can it?  All of the rosters are in flux.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 12:58:58 PMYou're asking the list to measure something it wasn't created to measure.
It's pretty simply a measure of how a coach performs relative to his seed in the tournament.

While ignoring some seasons (such as Self before Kansas) and dismissing the value of overall results. I get what it's trying to do, but calling Izzo "God of March" when Self has more titles and 11 more wins (while dismissing the 10 tourney wins he had before KU) is just a bit silly, even if Izzo did much of his work from lower seeds.

But bottom line, the bigger deal for me is age. Most of these guys are mid-50s to late 60s. Shaka could easily be doing this for 20 more years and I'm pretty sure that he will get beyond the Sweet 16 on more than one occasion in that time.

All I need is one streak of 6 wins before Shaka leaves to be happy. Maybe we get it, maybe we don't, but seeing Self in the "Avoid them" while the linked T-Rank list has Tony Bennett dead last, I'm willing to think there's hope for Smart.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:36:26 PMI've asked this question at least 2500 times for about a decade.  Get guys with zoomability and handles.  Get guys with muscle and hops.  Get guys that can lace the triple.  Get guys that usurp rebounds all over the floor.  Get guys that are unflappable and own crunch time.  This would make me exceedingly happy and it absolutely should be taken care of and quickly.

The Rolling Stones beg to differ

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes
Well, you just might find
You get what you need

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2025, 12:58:58 PMYou're asking the list to measure something it wasn't created to measure.
It's pretty simply a measure of how a coach performs relative to his seed in the tournament.

I will acknowledge that Shaka has underperformed in the NCAAT while at MU.

But this is a TERRIBLE way of determining the value of a coach. Between 2007 and 2021, Bill Self lead Kansas to 1-seeds 10 times, 2-seeds 3 times and a 3 and 4 seed once. He won two national championships and three additional Final Fours. And by this metric he somehow is bad? Cmon... When you are a 1 seed there is NO WAY to outperform your seed.

So I guess what it takes to be a "God of March" is to tank your regular season, then outperform your seed. Hey you don't win as many national championships and conference titles, but you get a real cool nickname at least.